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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
Shaping a Humanitarian: Lual Mayen
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Intro
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[00:00:00] Susan Gold: This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game Education Trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam. Each week we will be sitting down with a new guest. Highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:26] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast.
[00:00:45] Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:49] This episode is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's. Headline [00:01:00] sponsors, Epic Games, games for Change, and Xsolla for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in the upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org. This episode is brought to you in part through the support of the University of Miami School of Communication, and the John s and James L. Knight Foundation.
Meet Lual Mayen
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[00:01:30] Susan Gold: Today's guest is Lual Mayen.
[00:01:32] He was born on the run from the Civil War in South Sudan and grew up in refugee camps with no reliable electricity, no access to formal technical education, and very few obvious pathways out .Yet, from that environment, he taught himself to code and turned his fascination with games into a purpose-driven career.
[00:01:52] Lual is now a game developer, entrepreneur, and a humanitarian whose work centers on using interactive [00:02:00] experiences to build empathy and support for refugees and communities affected by conflict. His best known project, the game Salaaam, puts players in the shoes of someone fleeing war, and then conflicts and game choices to real world support for people living in refugee camps.
[00:02:19] Through his company and his foundation, he's focused on giving young people in displaced communities access to digital skills, creative tools, and the belief that they can be more than their circumstances. What inspires me most about Lual is his story is not just about escaping a hard beginning, but it's about redefining what's possible when talent drive and resilience are given even the smallest chance to grow.
[00:02:47] I'm so thrilled to welcome to the show my friend who did his first Global Game Jam in a refugee camp now to his life on a humanitarian stage. Everyone, please [00:03:00] welcome Lual.
[00:03:00] Lual Mayen: Thank you so much. thank you. What an amazing introduction.I never thought like I would've an introduction like this, but that's, That's what life is about. You know, I always say that, talent is heavily distributed, but opportunity is not, and I, I want to make sure that, I wasn't here because of just myself today, but because of people like you, you know, who believe and who understand And that's why I'm really excited to be part of this conversation. And it's not just like a conversation for today, we go way back, since 2015, it's been a while,
[00:03:29] These are things that makes me so happy to dive back and discuss things that happened over the journey. That's why it's a journey, So I'm really excited.
[00:03:39] Susan Gold: So I, I got to know you, Very early in your career, as you said, but at the same time you had this audacity that people have that just gives them that I can do this. And you know, when people say, oh, everyone describes you as refugee turn game developer, turn humanitarian.[00:04:00]
[00:04:00] What part of that feels most true to you? What feels incomplete?
[00:04:06] Lual Mayen: That's a good, that's, that's a good question. And, If I didn't have the experience of being a refugee, I don't think that I would become a game developer because that experience forced me to understand how can I turn that experience into a story, right?
[00:04:23] So I didn't know games before. I didn't know how to design game. I didn't know a lot of things, but when I played games and understood the power of games and I was like, oh, wow, games are so powerful in a way that if I connect them to my experience as a refugee, it can help other people to understand the plight of refugees, right? So at that moment is the moment where I felt like, wow, okay, what can I do? Then the first thing you can do is you have to learn how to make games. So then how do you learn how to make games? You have to go to school, you have to teach yourself how to make games.
[00:04:57] So, from there were like, okay, let me create them, [00:05:00] and then create them for what purpose? the purpose of telling the stories. like, refugees do, do not just wake up in the morning and leave their home, It's a choice of between life and death. When you look at these refugee families, they have countries, some have families. They have something they love so much than anything. Right? So it wasn't just them waking up in the morning and leaving, what they love. It was a choice of like, wow, let me either survive or let me just go through the journey of trying to see another day and then another day live where I'm in danger. And there's so many ways people become refugees, first can climate change, second, that is, war for my family was a war between Sudan long time ago that has killed a lot of people, including my own family, right? Some of my,my, yeah. My sisters, So I think that that journey. made them find a new way. And then it took actually my family to walk 250 miles to, to find a place of refuge. And that was in Uganda, and that's where I was born. as my family was [00:06:00] fleeing the war in South Sudan.
[00:06:01] Susan Gold: So your mom had had you in the refugee camp in Uganda.
[00:06:06] Lual Mayen: my mom had me in,like a border between South Sudan and Uganda. So, people wake up in the morning and go do their daily things and, and so on. I had my, three sisters, and, uh, during that time, I, I wasn't born, my mom was still pregnant, and then the war started in the morning, and then she has to like, you know, grab things and just run away without knowing where she was going. Thousand of people, And then in that journey of her carrying my, my sisters, two of them didn't end up making it because of the war. They didn't have, food on the way. They didn't have water. And they were sick and they were no medicine. And then in that journey my dad was not there 'cause he was fleeing in a different route, trying to find a way of, of refuge by himself.
[00:06:50] So when my family reached to the border between Uganda and South Sudan, I was born, you know, my mom usually told me that, she didn't know I was going to [00:07:00] survive because, I had no food to eat as a child. I had nothing. And I remember she was telling me, she, she planned to throw me away because she didn't want me to suffer as, and she was not the only woman that does a lot of women did that.
[00:07:13] and then it was very, like, I don't even know how to describe it, becauseI I was just a child, like maybe one month or something like that, you know? But to her, it was really a journey of life and death. Yeah. And then, we found a place of refuge, which was Uganda, and, that became my home.
The Life of a Refugee
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[00:07:29] Susan Gold: can you take us back to one of your earliest memories of life in the camp? What did normal look like for you as a kid?
[00:07:36] Lual Mayen: yeah. that's one of my favorite question to, to answer all the time. because you know, as a child, sometimes. Our memories, no matter how they felt bad, no matter how difficult we have, it always resolved that we had a good time,
[00:07:53] and I want to paint this very well in a way that when people think about refugees and they are, being [00:08:00] resettled, they don't resettle them like, for example, fleeing the country South Sudan, and then the UN find you and then bring you to the U.S. that's different, right? Uh, but for us, you know, during our time, fleeing the war, everything is crazy. it was like the end of the war. where you are running for your life. And then even in Uganda, the government they did not just give us a place to live, right? They, they, you know, it's thousands of people and where you going to put them? You are going to put them at a place that has not been settled before. So it is like a bush, it's like a local, somewhere I don't even know how to describe itSo what you have to do as refugees is: you clear the land, put some, you know, tents, build your own houses. And even in that process, there's mosquitos. I'm talking about snake, I'm talking about wild animals. There's a lot of things, that you have to deal with, right? And, all you want is a, as a refugee at that moment is the second chance in life. And [00:09:00] then from us, I remember, when I was 10-year-old, I was helping my mom to build a house,
[00:09:05] I was helping, my mom to, to plant, crops. So that that's the only thing we can eat, Uh, the only food we get is aid from, the, the United Nation High Commission for Refugees And it wasn't enough. There was there, no hospital, it was like, it's nothing, So, but yeah.
[00:09:21] Susan Gold: you're describing something that is so foreign, I have been to a lot of what people consider second and third world countries in my life, but this is something completely different. And to be young and a little boy with an imagination and curiosity, it's so hard to even fathom what normal would've been like, but I'm sure the one thing I know from you is that it was full of love and that is apparent in everything that you've done.
[00:09:53] So.
[00:09:54] Lual Mayen: Yeah, it was, it was in term of even going back to our normal, even when we were doing that, right? [00:10:00] We were kids, you know, we want to want to have fun. And one of the things that we love, it was like, the beauty of culture was there. We were coming from a community of people who understand how to live together and grow together, right.
[00:10:14] And that kept us together And, uh, we always love to explore as kid we wake up in the morning and the only thing we want to do, we want to go and play soccer because that was one thing we love so much. we happy, you know, if there's food, we go to, to somebody's house. We eat. We only eat one meal in a day. If it's there sometime we wake up in the morning at 7:00 AM and go to the bush so that we can go and look for mangoes or like different trees, but we were doing that with happiness because we didn't know any other world that exists apart from that.
[00:10:43] Right. even sometime when people see my picture, when I was in refugee camp, I'm happy because there was nothing else. You know? And, and that kind of like, that that community, that that that living of content that you have actually survived, that was enough for us to [00:11:00] live a new day.
[00:11:01] Yeah,
Introduction to Technology
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[00:11:02] Susan Gold: When did you get introduced to technology? did you hear about computers, if that wasn't. Something that was a part of everyday life.
[00:11:11] Lual Mayen: Yeah. Like, you know, the one thing I used to love anything that is electronic, right? Anything I see new, no matter what happen, I want to try it. I wanna see it, and I remember I got introduced to TVs first you know, because we watch soccer, like those small radios and things like that. and we would listen to thing. And one of the thing we used to listen all the time is soccer
[00:11:31] And then from there I actually got into uh, trying to repair radios without no knowledge. Like if, if somebody like has a radio and then, and it doesn't work, I would go and get it and then try to fix it. And I would fix it, And, and I remember there was a time whereby I can even make lights, I would put light through our roof, our home, and everybody would come and say, Hey, how did you even put the lights here using batteries? I remember I would make like, box out of carton, And then I would create [00:12:00] characters using boxes and I would put them together and people would come and actually watch, uh, like a movie. it was crazy like that, that was, was young. And then like, 50 people coming to my house at 9:00 PM to watch something that I created. So that, that kind of gave me a lot of oh, this guy's very, like, you know, this kid away.
[00:12:19] Susan Gold: How old are you Then?
[00:12:21] Lual Mayen: Then? I was like, maybe five, like I was five to 10. And then I think that gave my mom understanding of yeah, maybe you can create things. And then one day, that, that was recently actually maybe 2000, was it 13 around that area? I don't, I don't remember exactly. But then the United Nation High Commission for Refugees, they were collecting new data and all those things. And then from that time, they, they were using computers and then we were in the line and I saw they were using laptops, and then I asked, my mom was like, what is that? And then my mother was like, that is a, that's a computer. and then I kept quiet. I didn't say anything, but couple years later [00:13:00] on, maybe two years, I was like, Hey mom,I want to buy a laptop and, I was like, what? where would she get the money? There's no money. and then because she knew, like, again, that's why I was telling the story of like, maybe during the time I was creating things, she understand if I want something, she might, you know, sacrifice for it. And then she worked for three years looking for $300 to buy for me my first computer. And, and that moment like changed so much to me. Yeah.
A Sense of Responsability
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[00:13:26] Susan Gold: How did that sacrifice shape your sense of what responsibility was then now that you had this laptop, and how did that fuel your drive?
[00:13:36] Lual Mayen: It was, it was a lot. that responsibility felt really very hard on myself. because I remember when I got the laptop, there was a lot of trust that was involved in it in term of number one how can I use the computer? Right? Number two is who's going to teach me? Number three, where will I get the power, the charge it? Number four, a lot of things that were going on to the [00:14:00] extent I even questioned myself, and the good thing is she kept secretly saving for the money, right? So if, if, if she had brought it to me and or talk about it, Hey, I'm going to buy your computer, I would say no. But that moment when she brought me the laptop, I was like, wow. and then second to that is, when I talk about community before I have two, two younger brothers And that moment I thought wow, how about if my younger brothers one day, asked my mom and say, I need something special, and I did not use the laptop? That mean that, she's not going to buy it to them and say, Hey, look at while I bought him a laptop, those are thing I was thinking about the and then I was like, nah, yeah. So I want to lead, I wanna make sure that I utilize this. And that's when I started working three hours per day to go and charge my laptop.
[00:14:45] That's why I, start, making sure I utilize it even if I didn't know anything, what to do with it. So, I think that really taught me a lot about investing in people when you understand them is the most important thing, and one thing I think about that responsibility [00:15:00] is: my mom, she was the first person to invest in me. Right? and that investment wasn't coming from like, you know, someone from very rich family or someone from big, biggest country like U.S. that investment come from within Somebody who understand my struggle, also sacrifice whatever she want to do to make sure that I can be able to use that during that time.
[00:15:22] So, there were like too many ways of responsibilities and that kind of instilled everything in me to understand like, you know, co-creating with people that you live with is the most important thing. I want to find a way of like. How do I invest in families so that those families can invest in their,in their children, like what my mom did, right? Like, those things kind of become personal to people, right? And, with those things come not just a big organization trying to invest in something, but it's about understanding who to actually invest in, you know?
[00:15:54] And I think that responsibility is really very important. even when I look at people who already [00:16:00] invested in me, we'll talk about that later on to come to America. So it's a continuation of what has been started, right? that responsibility is big for me. Yeah.
Turning to Video Games
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[00:16:09] Susan Gold: So there you are,
[00:16:11] Lual Mayen: Hmm.
[00:16:11] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:13] Susan Gold: What turned you on to video games? What was that moment and how?
[00:16:19] Lual Mayen: it's a, it's, it is one of my favorite moment of all time because you know, refugee camp, we didn't have internet, we had, internet cafes.
[00:16:27] Like, one internet cafes could be like five computers by somebody, and then people will come and buy a ticket for like 30 minute and, so I would go there all the time, to go and, buy 30 minute to download something.
[00:16:38] And then I remember, a friend of mine who was running the place, installed for me, Grand Theft Auto in, in my computer without knowing, because we use flash drive all the time. So, we'll go to internet cafe, download, movies, we download, song, and then just put it on the flash drive
[00:16:57] So one day I came back home and then I opened [00:17:00] my laptop. the first thing I'm seeing is, uh, a Grand Theft Auto icon there, and I'm like, what is this? And then I open it.
[00:17:06] Wow. I'm like, wow. even that moment, I never thought actually video game were created by people, like, you know, I thought they just fall from heaven or so, like my reaction was,yeah, my reaction was justinsane. And then
[00:17:18] um, then I start playing Grand Theft Auto all the time and yeah.that's a moment whereby I was like, wow, you know, I come from a country where 70, 75% of the population is under the age of 30. They were born in war. They were raised up in war. So everything for them is, is war. even a refugee camp, everything is violent, they have no idea of how to solve conflict. Right. and when I was playing Grand Theft Auto, I had this, thing in mind And that's a moment where, okay, yeah, if these kids are continuing to play this game, they may think that's how things are done all the time. So, then I was like, how about if I can make a game about peace and conflict resolution? That is where that movement come from.
[00:17:59] Susan Gold: [00:18:00] And then I start, okay, what can I do now to create that game? That's beautiful. I love that story.
Building Resilience
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[00:18:07] Susan Gold: So. Can you describe a specific night where everything was stacked against you, you didn't have power, maybe there was some sort of danger, there was exhaustion, and yet you still chose to work on code and design and you powered through.
[00:18:25] Lual Mayen: Yeah, it's a lot. It's, um,there was a lot of time, you know,number one is,growing up in the refugee camp, I was teaching myself how to code, right? And that part alone. you know, I run into problem solving, and I, nobody's there to help me solve it, and then I would just like, throw down my computer and then leave it for a couple of days and then I would come back next time to try to fix it. And then I would fix it. And those moments felt like,I didn't have anybody to help me with that programming side. Number two, it's not even just learning programming, I had to learn design too, because I had nobody to [00:19:00] design for me, even the game characters. So, I had to like learn all those things. And, um, and then after I did design, and this is after I designed the first game, I actually, I made it, it was less than. 12 mega pixel. Very small, very small game. very, very light. And the reason is because in the refugee camp, I,I didn't have access to, to Google, to Google play, Google store, like Yeah. To upload the game so that kids can play it, So what I will do is, I will send the APK itself to kids in the refugee camp using Bluetooth, you know, so, yeah, because it was so light. because it's APK, so you just download it. they just receive it and open it and then play instantly, So I, I would do that all the time.
[00:19:44] Susan Gold: so did other kids want to learn as you were learning? did you become the man that then taught everybody else how to code?
[00:19:52] Lual Mayen: uh, during the Global Game Jam, There was, uh, first of all, before the Global Game Jam. I was like, what [00:20:00] can I do for more people to know my game? So I uploaded the APK on my Facebook page, you know? Then I was like, Hey, I made a game in a refugee camp. And then everybody, like start sharing it and then, in the morning I start receiving email from like Fox 8, San Francisco.
[00:20:17] And then I, 'cause I didn't know anything about the game industry,
[00:20:21] You know, and then I got invited to South Africa, say, come and talk about how you made your game.
[00:20:26] And from there I began to understand, oh, there's a Global Game Jam. and then I'm like, wow. there's a community of developers, helping each other. And then I'm hosting a Global Game Jam in South Sudan in the refugee camp.
[00:20:36] And from there I put together,you know, kids that were now ready to learn. And during the Global Game Jam, I told them we can even design, a board game. It doesn't matter as I just, I want us to work on something together and how we can solve our problem using games. So it was, it was really, it was really incredible.
[00:20:56] But, going back to like those difficulties Most of the [00:21:00] difficulties were technical, there's no problem, I have to like, go back and learn and give myself time and rest and let it go for a couple of weeks, because there was nobody there to help me, you know? there was no even internet, to even like, connect with different developers so that they can help me fix things, So those thing I could deal with And then, there was one of, there was a moment whereby um, I remember I was invited to, uh, GDC, you know, and I was so happy, I was so proud of myself, like, wow, I created something and, finding of going to America, because look at this, right?
[00:21:34] So we have a lot of thing called resettlement for refugees. You know, going to Australia. Going to Canada, different countries. My, my family has tried, seven times right? Now, seven times in almost 15 years. And they have been rejected you know, for, for nothing. And then, and then from there, when I got invited to the US because of the work that I'm doing, you know, I'm not going there [00:22:00] for the settlement. I was so happy. And then at least the work that I've done in the refugee camp was incredible. Right.
[00:22:06] And I remember, I woke up in the morning, it was, was it, was it January? It was January, actually. January around that time. And I, I got invited to go to GDC, and then I applied for Visa. And then the next thing there was a Trump, uh, refugee travel ban. And I couldn't make it. And I remember coming back home, this is the most beautiful part of it. I came back home, I was crying. I threw down my computer. I was like,
[00:22:33] listen, I work so hard, I'm doing everything I can, but again, nothing is working out, right? And I remember my mother came to me and, and she was like, Lu, why are you crying?
[00:22:44] And then I told her the reason, and, and she looked at me and she was like, Luan, let me tell you something. Did you know that you cannot steal water from an ocean? if, if you go, if you take a whole basket and go to the [00:23:00] ocean and withdraw water from it, it doesn't stop it.
[00:23:03] Keep overflowing and And, and that's who you are as you are. You know, more opportunities are coming, pick up your laptop and keep working. And, um, yeah. I remember picking up my laptop and it didn't take me like two months, to come here because of that moment of not giving up and just doing stuff, you know?
[00:23:22] I'm here now. My family's in Canada now, and uh, yeah,
[00:23:26] Susan Gold: I am very grateful that they're settled and they are not in refugee camps here anymore. But what, when you think back, when Salaam started to get attention, how did you handle the pressure of being like the representative for refugees all of a sudden, like,I, I, I jokingly said poster child, but I, what is it like to be the poster child?
[00:23:51] that is crazy that when people think refugees, that your face is what comes to mind,
[00:23:58] Lual Mayen: Yeah. I think one of my favorite thing about [00:24:00] that, it's I do a lot of work right now representing, and I, I do it in my own voice in term of, of knowing that refugees can become whatever they want to be. Right. They just have that second chance of life, which everybody deserve.
[00:24:16] and for them it's the, their chance is like starting a new home. It's not about doing anything. And I think to me, I feel like, representing them, it is not even just about presentation. It's just it is who I am.
[00:24:29] You know, like when I made the first statement of I wouldn't become a, a game developer if I wasn't a refugee. And I think it's our responsibility to create a sustainable future for those who were coming after us, and for them to see that, you know, I, I have friends, that are doing amazing stuff right now that, they were in a refugee camp before.
[00:24:48] and that's why I was telling you before, talent is, is evenly distributed but opportunity is not, uh, the refugee camps are better than when I was there. there's internet now there's a, [00:25:00] infrastructure is changing because they, the refugees develop it by themself, they're creating their own space.
[00:25:06] So I think to me even in the perspective of like, one of the thing why I love using video games as a part of telling storiesis to create empathy too. I really believe in a world where empathy is not taught. empathy is built over time. And with built over time is how we feel about things. For example, I just spoke about, the story of how I didn't make it to America because it was a refugee travel ban.
[00:25:30] but some people that are in government or in position where they're making policies, They don't know exactly. They've never been where these people are. But if I develop a game, it's not just a today idea. It is about the future. The kids that are playing my game today or reading about my game today, in the next 20 years, they're going to be in a position of power.
[00:25:50] and because maybe they understood what refugee go through, it might actually give them the better understanding of even making better policies. Right? So, so there's, there's [00:26:00] so many things that, you know, as our experience as refugees or like developers is also creating how we feel about things.
[00:26:07] And I think that's why, you know, it makes me happy to create what I'm creating the thing that I've never, I never thought that I would do with the game. For example, like when I made Salaam, I never thought that it was going to be adapted by Discovery Education as a, as, as a, as a curriculum in the US up to K 12. One of the biggest thing that I've done, I never thought about that in a refugee camp, and it's going on right now. So, you know, those small things are not just for today, they're just for the future. They're just for like maybe some people that understand, you know?
Mentors, Mentees and Networking
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[00:26:38] Susan Gold: You know, when I think about your story, I think about how you had no mentors and I start to think about the people that are in these camps now and your work that you're doing. How did that absence teach you to be the kind of mentor that you are now? And maybe you could talk a little [00:27:00] bit about some of the mentoring and things that you are doing.
[00:27:03] Lual Mayen: Yeah. That, that's really,like one of the things that I learned over the years, you know, I've been, I've been in the US now, I can't believe it's been about, it's about a, been nine years.
[00:27:12]
[00:27:12] Lual Mayen: It's an amazing learning journey in a way by like, so my mindset when I was in a refugee camp. to come in America, it's, it's changed a lot. Like, it's even, like there's some people that come into this country, but they don't know the right mentorship, so sometime it become really very difficult for us to even continue to grow. And to me, I was really so lucky that the game industry were able to accept me as a person and what I was building. You know, that's something that, a lot of people do not have that access, and it's something that I am really so, lucky to have and, and in a way even starting my own business itself, right? It is, it is not being an independent developer, it's not a sustainable business sometimes, you know, it's especially just, making a game for, [00:28:00] again, social impact, And that's why I'm going to talk back about what game jams are really very important the game jam that I did, the one I did in South Sudan, in Uganda with the refugee camp, even the game jam that I continue to do here in the us, they they helped me. When I first moved here, everybody, all the game community, all the game developers in the game jam, each of them invited me to the meet up. You know, it could have been like in Austin, in Seattle,in San Francisco. And they even launch, their GoFundMe and say, Hey everyone, Lual is gonna visit us in Austin, and I went to Austin and I visited them and, and what does that mean to me? I connected with developers. I learned from people that were beginning like me. I, I, it's funny, there was a night I was in Austin with, um,Global Game Jam team, and we're at the bar.
[00:28:48] And, at the bar, I end up meeting someone called a Pendleton. Pendleton is a creator of Adventure Time and and he came to like one of the meet up for, for, for Game Jam [00:29:00] Fox. And when I met him, and then he start talking to me,
[00:29:03] and then I remember during that time, he, He, he was like, you gave me a napkin. I like, yo, give me a wide napkin. And we start drawing characters at, at, at, at a bar. And then he was like, yeah, I'm going to join you on a game jam tomorrow. Let's do our own game jam together. those, those moments help me a lot to understand the power of networking. You know, and how do we network? Is there, there's a way of networking with people that can give you knowledge and they appear, in the way where people that can help you solve problem in term of like, even coding or even people that can help you understand the future of games. Right.?
[00:29:36] So I start learning all those things about life. From a community of developers, and I think those things, I wish we can have them more in a refugee camp I want, you know, I want to create,more that system. I know even in the US right now, we are in a space whereby the ironing is crazy in the game industry, you know? And I think it's the right time for us to use the community,
Impact & Milestones
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[00:29:56] Susan Gold: So you. You came here and you [00:30:00] evolved just became more of who you already were. You received a lot of recognition, shall we say. you became the Muhammad Ali Humanitarian of the Year award. You were recognized by Chanel, and there are a lot of other milestones, you know, you've been invited to speak and be actually very influential. Which of those milestones do you think actually changed your day-to-day life or your impact?
[00:30:30] Lual Mayen: Uh, that's a good question. Yeah. someone has never asked me that about that question, but I think to me over the years, of course, I just kept on sticking to, to believing what I'm doing, I think, my, my biggest milestone in life has always being move my family from a refugee camp to, to Canada,
[00:30:49] but I think, All other recognitions are really very important to me in term of like, they help me open more, connection to me and more [00:31:00] conversation and more learnings, and, for example, award, Chanel, Next price. those are things that give me another way of like, oh, I'm, I'm more than just being a video game designer right? There's something beyond video game design. there's art, there is, there is a new, medium that is actually part of what we are doing. You know, I actually, like three days ago, I just received like, Chanel just launched the first ever magazine and I, and I was one of the features there. I feel like all these recognitions are helping me, open up, to different, mentorship, for example, when I became, when I won the Next, Chanel, I, I have access to, to mentors, to funding,and then, uh, when I had Muhammad Ali Humanitarian Award, CNN Champion for Change, and one of the best thing, I'm not gonna talk about it, but I film it, I have a, an amazing documentary coming soon. yeah. So, it's thing like that. I think, they are not part of what I'm striving [00:32:00] for, but, they are, they are helping me a lot to, to open more, how do even call that in English, more, more connection or more learning to new things, so yeah.
[00:32:13] Opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:32:16] Susan Gold: So, one of the greatest things about games is that when you're playing with someone, you have to have trust and until it's broken. you establish relationships, and that is what peace building really is about, is creating that relationship and finding commonalities and having fun at play. But additionally, it helps with coming up with conflict resolution and things like that. When you think of Salam on other games of this genre, what does that necessarily look like in practice? how do we think about even making entertaining games that are also purposeful, that teach [00:33:00] us, or, instill peace building as opposed to violence and hatred and the other.
[00:33:08] Lual Mayen: Yeah, I like the way you describe it I like the way, you compare games and, how, how people play a game until the trust is bro broken. I, I really like that perspective, in a way that, of course, like when it come back to the peace building, right?
[00:33:23] And I, I always say true peace is build over time, and the reason why I say peace is build over time is about also conflict resolution in a, whereby people come together and they disagree, right?
[00:33:33] And, and I think a problem with, with, the world today when it comes to conflict resolution. it is not that people don't have conflict resolution skill. It's because it, trigger them and they don't want to understand. They want to be Right. You know? And when you say you are right, every time, you're not gonna solve any conflict, Not at all. and I remember, I. I build a board game. and the reason why I talked about a lot, when it come to board game, is because of how that kind [00:34:00] of bring people on the same table, to play and to discuss things and to be able to know that I'm either losing or winning. And, and I think that when we design game like that, that kind of help, people like, oh wow, like I, my response to this is going to affect the next, the next big thing that is going to come. Right?
[00:34:20] And the video game community is a community of people who love what they play, So when we people sit on the table, they agree to be in coexistent Now, where do you give them, a product that can bring them together and discuss and be able to solve that conflict. And I think that's why I feel like, a conflict resolution school or like want to like invent game a lot as part of that, of that moment.
[00:34:45] And I know it's very slow right now, but I'm, I'm not a big theoretical, conflict resolution person, but I'm more like very practical because like, I've seen conflict in real life and I've seen how to resolve it. And I think games are really very powerful tool that we can do [00:35:00] that. Yeah.
The Future
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[00:35:01] Susan Gold: Do you think that that will always be your future kind of working in this more serious intent focused games? Is that really going to be the niche you explore always?.
[00:35:14] Lual Mayen: Yeah, I think it's a niche. I'll always explore. I'm going to explore more, storytelling and conflict solution or like, storytelling in, in impact, something like that. I'm going to explore that a lot, But, my future over the years, I feel like as I become business minded, right? How do I build things that, and I think like sometime, because like I know we have a lot of creative people in the game industry that can also build games, like for conflict resolution. But we serious, like I think we always have one, one issue, and that is sustainability. how do and that come from?
[00:35:49] do we, even if we build this game, are we going to get the investment that we need? if we sit in,in a game jam with three people, four people to create something out the field, is there way we can [00:36:00] sustain it? And those are things that I maybe in the future I will start exploring. And I've seen recently, like, the Global Game Jam, been doing amazing work with conflict resolution, I've been really excited about that. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah.
[00:36:11] Susan Gold: Yeah, the Global Game Jam has really been growingand providing opportunities for people to get involved in some very interesting things. And Games for Change is one of the headline sponsors as well.
The Foundation
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[00:36:22] Susan Gold: Let's talk just briefly about, or as much as you want actually, about your foundation and the training program.
[00:36:29] tell us a little bit about it, and for you, what is success in creating these?
[00:36:36] Lual Mayen: Yeah. when I started my foundation, the idea was, like I said before, it was more like the state of like talent, in a refugee camp I grew up. They are very different right now in a way that we have a lot of resources. And I began it during the pandemic, and I was really so lucky to like, get funding from Unity [00:37:00] Technologies, which was really good.
[00:37:01] and then also I remember getting some funding from therapies, which was really good. and I'm still looking for more funding, you know, the last, couple of years, the game industry,funding has been very, very limited, and
[00:37:14] I'm seen like working with like,Epic Gammes right now. They have curriculum that they're developing. So I seeing this curriculums are available for free. I'm like, okay, how do I have them, the refugees access them for free? So yeah, it's been really good and it's something I'm really excited about. And, yeah.
[00:37:30] Susan Gold: So you're curating learning so that people can access them.
[00:37:35] I love that.
[00:37:35] That's really, that's brilliant. And then, Are you able to find, talent from the camps and are you employing them?
[00:37:45] Lual Mayen: Yes.
[00:37:45] Yes. Yeah. So we started as a, a cohort. as a cohort, of like 25 and we select them from like 200 or something. But we see the level of, of technical skill they already are. So those cohort from one and then, then [00:38:00] there's cohort two.
[00:38:01] So sometime the, there's some cohort that we use to actually teach the other first cohort because it become like a, a rotation. And then sometime what we do is when they have really good, Design skills then we connect them to internship program to continue.
[00:38:16] So yeah, but we want to make sure that we,we upscale it, you know, and, and, yeah.
The Power of Sharing your Games
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[00:38:22] Susan Gold: So when you think about, your own personal resilience and you think about the lack of having, anybody tell you what your plan should be, you've sought connections. you know, just by posting your game on your Facebook page, all of this has happened, right? it was just that one small act of sharing and then. It transformed into a life, so how do you tell people, okay, I didn't have a plan and I [00:39:00] just went for what I thought was a good goal, peace games and here I am. what is it that you tell them to do?
[00:39:10] Make games. Play games. what do you share with people? what do you say, Hey, I had no plan, but here I am.
[00:39:18] Lual Mayen: Yeah. that's a very good question yeah, the act of sharing, right? And I'm not going to say it in a motivational way. I'm going to say it in a reality way as creators, I think the good thing about the game industry and the game design is this,
[00:39:32] The act of sharing is very important for us in a way that, that was big risk, right? I took a risk, a risk of posting a APK, which is somebody can just download it and replicate it, and that's it. That was number one risk, right? but, I took that risk because I didn't have the tools to, to post it somewhere I can control it, so I did not even think about whether there's a control and so on.
[00:39:56] It's actually funny, I, in December 5th, last year. I [00:40:00] spoke at the Senate and and I spoke about,investing in intellectual property rights, For creative industries. and when I was thinking about the whole idea of intellectual property, in creative industries, I thought back about what I did first, and that was, there was noproperty right at all, But I think that moment to me is really very important as a creator, you have to think out outside the box, Within that moment where this is something that I, I did and this is something that I want to get to the world.
[00:40:28] And I'm very happy with it. And I, if you don't have that, then don't share, right? But if you feel like I want feedback. sometime we, we fear too much about people taking our thing without knowing that feedback is one of the biggest tool in our, in, in our creative,development, So at this moment I can say like, yeah, of course. I advise people to either, if you think that, it's not everything that you post is gonna go viral to be honest, But, I didn't post it for the idea that is going to become [00:41:00] successful. I posit for the idea of beating the people that I know. I had, a, on Facebook, I had like less than 100 people As my friends in the refugee camp, right? So just have the idea of sharing it, even if it's like sharing with your friends at home, share it!. And then maybe one person is gonna share it and then it's, oh, we like this. So, then the outcome come from, because you created the right product.
Lual's Plans for the Future
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[00:41:27] Susan Gold: I love that. Tell me, what are your plans for the future? What is this year? And then imagine the next five.
[00:41:37] Lual Mayen: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me right now is,I keep building and learning. I want to create an amazing network of people that can support me over the next couple of years, either to define what I'm working on or to think together and say, Hey, well what is a new thing? Because I feel like I think about a new thing every time. I was just thinking, uh, the [00:42:00] other day on Friday, I was like, maybe Use some of my time to support, Global Game Jam or something like that,yeah. But, of course I, I have a lot of thinking that I'm doing right now in term of professionally, maybe focus on, the last nine years I've, I've learned a lot and should I focus on global partnerships, should I get into like, different creative industry?
[00:42:23] But the game, game development is gonna be my favorite, you know, I'm gonna keep doing that. Yeah.
[00:42:29] Susan Gold: I love that you are constantly working towards it. This, I don't wanna say a higher goal, but it truly is, more than just making games. and I really. I look at the man that I met all those years ago, and I see you now and I see how much you've grown and how incredibly proud, I think everybody from the Global Game Jam is of everything that you [00:43:00] have overcome and only wish for you, to be prosperous and to be healthy and to continue your resilience.
What Little Lual Would the be the Most Proud of
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[00:43:08] Susan Gold: But I wanna ask one last question really, and that is, when you look back at that boy in the camp learning on a laptop, what do you think he would be most proud of right now of you?
[00:43:23] Lual Mayen: Yeah, that's a good question. If I look back at, at Lual, you know, the kid that, almost gave up at some point, throwing laptop down,waking up in the morning, to. To look for mangoes to eat for lunch,
[00:43:36] Just thinking back at that Lual, being in that space to create things It made me so proud to be where I am today.
[00:43:44] And I know there's a lot of refugee kids that are going through the same thing. And one of the best thing that I I'm so proud of is, be where I am today and continue to tell these stories, and be able to, to continue to doing the right thing, But I think [00:44:00] for me, I, I remember having a conversation with my mom and they ask how one day, what is, what do you want for your children?
[00:44:09] what do you think? And she was like, there's nothing much for them to follow the right path in life. And, and that's all I'm up to. being able to follow the right path, doing the right thing, and yeah. that's all I'm looking for. Yeah.
[00:44:21] Susan Gold: Can I tell you I am so proud of your work and the things that you are doing to make the industry better, to make games, something that we can be extremely proud of.
[00:44:36] But additionally, everything that you're doing for. For the community and I mean the global community to really put a face to what can be. And really if I had to say you are the poster child of anything, it would be the poster child of resilience. You truly are a resilient man. [00:45:00] Thank you so much for everything that you do, and I truly appreciate you being a part of our podcast.
[00:45:08] Thank you so much for being here, and I hope to see you again very soon,
[00:45:12] Lual
[00:45:13] Lual Mayen: Thank you so much. It was fun.
[00:45:15] Susan Gold: you. Very welcome. Ciao.
Outro
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[00:45:17] Shirley McPhaul: Want to get involved with the G GJ podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Please send your ideas, suggestions, and questions to ggj pod@globalgamejam.org and tell us who you think we should be talking to next. What stories or issues matter most to you about the future of games, and help us highlight the people and practices that make a sustainable, creative life and games possible.
[00:45:42] Thank you for spending time with us on the GGJ Podcast. This conversation sparked something for you. Please share it with someone who might find it useful, and don't forget to follow along so you never miss new stories from makers around the world. You can find more episodes, resources, and information [00:46:00] about the Global Game jam@globalgamejam.org.
[00:46:03] Catch us on substack and on YouTube and anywhere else you find podcasts. This has been the GGJ Podcast. Thanks for listening and keep making games.