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Ministry Wives & Women is a podcast for ministry wives and women seeking encouragement, spiritual depth, and honest conversation for the journey of faith. everyday life, and the challenges of church leadership. Hosted by Andrea Griffith, each episode offers thoughtful wisdom, real stories, and gospel-centered hope to help women live with greater resilience, authenticity, and grace in every season.
Church planning can actually be an experience that that brings us closer to the Lord and brings us closer to each other and that we have agency over how that experience goes in a way that had nothing to do with the external circumstances.
Andrea Griffith:Welcome to the Ministry Wives and Women Podcast. This is a place where we openly address the challenging realities of ministry and point one another to Jesus and the gospel. Whether you're thriving, barely holding on, or somewhere in between, you are not alone. I'm Andrea Griffith, and each episode brings honest conversations, biblical encouragement, and stories from women who understand this calling. This podcast is part of the church hub where we're committed to strengthening ministry leaders and the families who walk with them.
Andrea Griffith:We're so glad you're here. Back with us today is Deneen, Blevins, the executive director of Parakaleo. Welcome back, Deneen.
Denine Blevins:Thank you so much, Andrea. It's really good to be here.
Andrea Griffith:When you talk about Parakaleo, do you say Parakaleo Global? Because I know it is a global ministry.
Denine Blevins:Yeah. It can be confusing because we do have so many, parakeleo communities around the world, usually in partnership with Church Planning Networks. We we our our central operations so to speak, we just say parakeleo but there may be like, was just in Argentina last week with Parikaleo Latin America, and there's a an expression of Parikaleo in Malaysia. So they tend to take on their city or or country name when they talk about their community.
Andrea Griffith:I'd love to ask you one more question on that because I so I'm a little bit familiar with Parikaleo Malaysia. And then one of the online groups I was on, there were missionaries from I don't even know where. Like, they weren't even allowed to tell us where they're from. Do you know, where all in the world Paracaleo is represented right now?
Denine Blevins:Yeah. We most of, the best way for us to track it is through the women who are part of our Paracaleo leadership community. So we have about 40 leaders that represent 18 different countries, but then those women have some of the many of those women have a couple of leaders under them. So like I know that you are you're part of the Florida network. But I and we also I've also run into women that are like, I use Fresno all the time and I've never missed it before, so
Andrea Griffith:Yes. I it's just so needed and the stuff is so great that's in it. I know why it is a grassroots movement. And while once you're exposed to it, it just keeps going because people are very hungry for what you offer. So I remember the first time I met you and you probably don't remember this.
Andrea Griffith:I did it all wrong. Our church was with the Great Commission Collective, and you and Emily Hartman were, teaching, and the Great Commission Collective offered it to pastor's wives. Well, we had a staff. I'm not sure how many we had on staff at that point, but the staff wives would come to my house every month. And so when I found out you're doing this, I'm like, we're all going.
Andrea Griffith:And so we went to our executive pastor's house, and we all sat on the couch, and we had you up on a screen, you and Emily up on a screen teaching.
Denine Blevins:And I know. I remember. I don't you were in that group. Wow.
Andrea Griffith:I was in that group, but everyone else so when it all started, everyone else was like me and you are right now. Like, the faces were close-up to the to the computer, and yet me and my ladies were all way back, you know,
Denine Blevins:sitting on the couch. Yes. Completely restored to that. Wow.
Andrea Griffith:Yeah. I brought the group because I just thought if I need this and if I'm hurting and if this is hard for me, I know it's hard for my staff wives, my ministry wives. And you and Emily that night taught a tool called blocked longings.
Denine Blevins:Yeah.
Andrea Griffith:And I watched you draw out my life. I watched you draw out my heart and how, I was fleeing and despairing, and I was trying to fix it and trying to fight it. And at the end of that tool, you invited us to genuinely repent from the heart and be willing to wait in the dark for God to work. And in Isaiah, the scripture tells us you will find treasures and hoards in the secret places in the darkness. And you just put the question back to us, you know, in all these places where you're wanting God to work, but you don't see it, you're praying and you're doing everything you can on your end to make it work or fix it or run away from it because it's so painful, will you repent and trust?
Andrea Griffith:Would you just wait in the dark for God to work? And as soon as you and Emily taught that tool, I was like, I'm in. I need this, I'm in. And I'm sure you've heard that story multiple times from many women throughout the years.
Denine Blevins:Yeah. That's that's amazing, Andrea. I didn't I had no idea that that's that was our first connection. I totally remember you grouped.
Andrea Griffith:That was us. So I don't know if any of the other ones jumped in like I did with both feet, but I have jumped in with both feet and have no regrets. In fact, it's been one of the best things that I've ever found to help women in ministry. So as we're talking about this, some people might not understand why it is so difficult to be a woman in ministry or to be a pastor's wife. Could you explain to us a little bit the specific vulnerabilities that pastor's wives face that others in the congregation just might not see, might not fully understand?
Denine Blevins:Yeah. Well, I'll tell a short made up story but it's sort of a composite a composite of many stories that we've heard in many different ways. So imagine a woman, the wife of the pastor comes or the wife of the church planner comes to church that morning, a little bit nervous because she asked her husband to change out of his jeans, to change into something more appropriate for preaching and he's like, no, I'm good, don't worry about it. And so she gets there and as soon as she walks in, her teenager who she's just put at the front door because the hospitality theater wasn't there, so he's there handing out bulletins, he's mad, he got this sullen face on, you know, sullen look on his face and he's handing out the bulletins and she's like, oh my gosh, like people are not gonna want to come back once they see this kid here. She gets to hear her husband's message, she's super encouraged by it, you know, just really touched by the God for herself.
Denine Blevins:She's outside of the sanctuary sort of greeting people at the Lee's and then she sees that elder come her way. And she knows, she immediately knows what's going to happen and lo and behold, he's like, you know, great message but he should have worn Drek fans. And so now she's negotiating that, my husband, do I talk to him about it, I'm not talking about it, because she's starting to get her kids together, she really wants to cook them Sunday lunch, but knows that she's not going to have time, know, so she's figuring that out, she's probably going stop by McDonald's and just as they're leaving, she gets she looks down on her phone and sees a text from the children's ministry director that says, hey, my family, this just isn't the right place for my family, we're probably not gonna be coming back. And so while she's figuring out the conversation with her husband, talking to her son that's upset that he had the servant, greeting, figuring out that she's gonna probably have to step into kids' ministry, she's also thinking about, oh wow, the guilt that once again, I'm gonna have to stop buying and get sasses for my kids.
Denine Blevins:And this happened within like, thirty minutes. What do you do with all that? And so, I think the specific vulnerability for a church planners wife or pastor's wife, not many people understand her context, she may have a lot of friends but they don't understand those unique nuances of things that feel so small but aren't. A lot of her relationships are in her church and so when there's conflict, that the people that she would turn to for support are probably the people that she's having the conflict with or can't know about the conflict. Church is supposed to be her safe space and when it's not, you know, she she she doesn't have like a a spiritually formative outlet to grow in.
Denine Blevins:And then it's just the relentlessness of Sunday mornings, like it's it's every Sunday, same routine, always having to be ready yet create a different experience every time. So those are some of the, you know, but more than and I would say more than anything, like when we we conducted research to identify some of the stress factors, the number one issue of stress was the, her husband, the pastor. And so either he was a source of stress or satisfaction depending on how much he understood the unique pressure that she was under.
Andrea Griffith:You just did such a great job of describing my life. It's just like, oh my word, like, one thing's coming before I can be done with this thing. And yeah, all the complexity of it all. And you just did a great job of describing that. And the research that has been done like Perikaleo, we didn't just pull all of this out of the air, but there was research done in a control group over a long amount of time where we came up with the 12 top stressors for pastors' wives.
Andrea Griffith:And I remember showing that research to one of my groups, and it did say that the number one stressor often was the husband. And I remember a lady in my group going, I'm just so happy to be in a group that admits that it's our husbands that's stressing us out the most. That's right,
Denine Blevins:that's right. But the encouraging thing is that it was also one of the factors of satisfaction, you know? And so it's not to put added pressure on him, but it's to say that that church planting can actually be an experience that that brings us closer to the Lord and brings us closer to each other and that we have agency over how that experience goes in a way that has nothing to do with the external circumstances.
Andrea Griffith:Yeah, and you're so driven to keep going because you do hear your husband preach and when he's preaching, the Spirit is at work and you know it's what we all desperately need. We need the Word, We need the Holy Spirit. It's what the whole world needs. And so that's why we keep saying yes. Right.
Andrea Griffith:Right. We keep showing up like Jesus has changed our lives. Ah. And we want Jesus for everyone. And so no matter the complexity, complexity, no matter all the hard, we keep showing up and keep saying yes.
Denine Blevins:And yet that can be the very thing that does us in when we start believing the lie that it's us that that rescue instead of the Lord. You know, when we're able to say that God can work, it's one thing to say God can work through me, God can work around me, but to be able to say God can work without me takes a lot of faith and a lot of humility and and embracing the truth that it's Jesus that holds all things together and it's not us.
Andrea Griffith:Yes. That has been one of my favorite phrases, my favorite gospel lyrics through Paracleto. God can work in, around, despite or through me. He can work however he chooses. I can be sidelined and God is at work.
Andrea Griffith:And that brings such a relief to me and enables me to keep going. Just hearing you say that, that was one of the greatest things that I'm still learning. Like, I'm I'm watching myself right now when one of the things that Paraclete teaches on is the omnis
Denine Blevins:My favorite. That
Andrea Griffith:That's your favorite?
Denine Blevins:Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Griffith:I didn't know that that only God is omniscient, only God is omnipotent, only God is which one did I leave out?
Denine Blevins:Omnipresent.
Andrea Griffith:Omnipresent. Yes. But I didn't even realize as a pastor's wife that I was trying to be all those things. You just get the text, and you you have a front row seat to all the need, and so you're just trying to, you know, meet the needs, see everybody, let everybody feel seen, let everybody feel loved, and then before you know it, you're the one who's trying to be all the omnis, and I can't do it. My frame is not built to be omni.
Andrea Griffith:There's only one.
Denine Blevins:That is right. And the way that people experience us, in the beginning, it could be you people could feel supported and loved and, oh, that person is so reliable. But after a while, could feel like pressure because they think they have to And be that way it actually scares people out of out of church ministry because they're like, can't do all the things that I can't do all the things that Andrea does. And so we actually model something more beautiful when we see the need and say, not me. That's not me.
Denine Blevins:God's gonna call somebody else for that or we have to change the ministry model or the kids have to run around in the sanctuary for a little bit or yeah. But it's it's hard. It's really hard to get to that point.
Andrea Griffith:And is that why learning about only God being all the omnis is your favorite or is there another reason why that one is your favorite?
Denine Blevins:Oh, yeah. I think I think the idea of so the opposite of being everywhere all the time is to be local, the opposite of being thinking that I'm all powerful is to be dependent and the opposite of thinking that I'm omniscient, I'm all knowing is to be humble. And so, I think that the the holding up of like who I actually am gives me the ability to see how big Jesus is because if I'm all the omnis, then I can't see how big Jesus is, I don't really need Him. And yet, when I can embrace, oh, okay, maybe I'm not called to the woman that came up to me at church and was like, I really need to meet with you. I'm not, no, God has given me this circle that I wanna invest in and God's gonna meet them in another way, maybe through somebody else and maybe through him alone.
Andrea Griffith:That's so good. Just to be humble and to be local, which leads me to another question. So I think sometimes, just like you were saying about the pastor's wife whose kid was handing out bulletins with a sullen look on his face, you know, we know now that this isn't good, this isn't, it doesn't look like our family has it all together. Yeah. But yet somehow as pastors' wives, we feel the pressure that we have to look like all the time, that we have it all together or that our family has it all together.
Andrea Griffith:And what are the dangers of that? How does that actually work against genuine resilience and healing?
Denine Blevins:Yeah. I I would say, first of all, it's it's extra biblical. Like, there's nowhere in the bible that says this is the way to be a pastor's wife. Is the way to be a good Christian family. Or even, bear with me here, this is the one and only way to be a Christian.
Denine Blevins:You know, honestly, being obedient to the Word is our standard but in terms of, you know, from everything from like how we dress to and obviously, there's a there's a bigger context there but Yeah. Whether or not how how nice we are. I think one of the the most substantial things that I I most impactful thing that I heard when I first came to Paracaleo is they said, during this retreat, you don't even have to be nice. And I was Yes. I mean, we should be kind.
Denine Blevins:We should be kind. But nice is a different level. Like, I don't have to please anybody. I don't have to go out of my way to make somebody else feel comfortable. Like, that was just that just blew my mind.
Denine Blevins:So for the Pastoral family, your child, your two year old can act like a two year old, your 12 year old can act like a felon 12 year old. They can be free because it's it actually binds them to something that Christ has bound them to if you expect them to be friends with the new kids that just came to church when God isn't requiring that of them, you know? So it disciples their faith, it tells other people that they can also tell your kid how to act or tell you how to act, and it's just bad discipleship all the way around.
Andrea Griffith:Anytime we're putting something on us that is not biblical, bad discipleship. And we're gonna whether we're putting it on ourselves or our kids or our husbands having expectations on them. Sometimes I think our own voices can be the loudest, with our expectations.
Denine Blevins:Yeah. That's fair. That was oh, you just said that, and then now I gotta go apologize for something. I don't wanna admit how many times I said, hey. Why don't you fight him over?
Denine Blevins:And maybe partially out of a genuine concern for that person, but like, I don't want people to think that we exclude people, you know, instead of like giving him the freedom to decide who he wants in his circles. Yeah. Now my husband's direct pastor, I work at the church, but I've even put that little burden on him.
Andrea Griffith:I'm right there with you. I'm I'm I'm guilty of that as well, especially in this season. So if we're putting things on ourselves that aren't biblical, if we're listening to the really loud voices in our own heads and we're not, you know, listening to the Lord, that leads a lot of times to burnout. If we're trying to be all things for all people, we're trying to be all the omnis that we were just talking about, what are some of the early signs of burnout that you've seen? Have you seen women come out of burnout through what Parikaleo has equipped them with?
Denine Blevins:I would say some of the the red flags are just a just a sense of irritability. You know, you just you just get irritated over things that normally wouldn't affected you. You certainly can feel it in your body, just an exhaustion that doesn't seem to go away even with sleep or rest. There's a sense of I think there's a little bit of martyrdom, like, I always have to, you know, if I don't do it, nobody else will and look at how much I'm suffering. Maybe a sense of hopelessness, like, just you're just spinning and you can't see a way out of it.
Denine Blevins:Yeah. I mean, I would say, I I think my only example I would use and it's interesting that I was just talking to Sherry, the founder a couple of weeks ago and Sherry, how is it that and she was she was the executive director. I was like, how is it that like, I'm the executive director of Hera Kaleo and yet I forget all this stuff. Like, I forget the number that got four. And she's like, I know.
Denine Blevins:She said, we need it all the time. We always need to be in community. So about a year ago, I was just right on the edge of burnout and could feel all those things. Dealing with a dual leadership role now and just being overwhelmed and just feeling this anxiety in my chest right here. And the interventions that were in place for me, you know, getting into counseling, having actually a meeting with one of my say friends tomorrow, like identifying the women in my life that I've got to be close to, you know, some women inside my church, some women outside of my church and people that speak the lyrics of the Gospel over me.
Denine Blevins:So I think those kinds of intention but it also required like saying no, pulling back, trusting the Lord with things. Yeah, yeah. So I definitely for myself and now a year later, like, don't feel that thing in my chest. I mean, and I still have the same workload, but I was almost late today, Andrea, because I took a nap. Didn't That's great.
Denine Blevins:Was planning for this conversation like I would have before, you know? So I think it's yeah. Just just really being able to embrace your limits and prioritizing, like, me prioritizing my relationship with the Lord over ministry and ministry accomplished.
Andrea Griffith:I think I I definitely got to a place of burnout when we were up at Gospel City Church that we planted in 2009 and we were able, just by God's grace, that church grew like crazy and we planted so many churches out of it and I didn't realize, I didn't miss any time with the Lord, like every morning I had my Bible open, I was meeting with God, but I burned myself out and I messed my body up physically because I just kept pushing, kept pushing, kept pushing. And I I went to counseling, but it was almost like I didn't give myself permission to really get down deep enough in my heart and it was Parakaleo that showed me the lies I was believing, that showed me I was trying to be all the omnis for everybody in my church, that showed me where there was sin, like idols, people's approval, huge one, you know? And I trip over that all the time. It's when I continually have to keep just asking, Lord, help me just live for your approval, no one else's. And I didn't know the signs of burnout, I didn't know I was in it.
Andrea Griffith:And so when Pericleo came along, it was just the biggest gift to me and has been just step by step sitting on my back porch, taking what I've learned from all of you and sitting with the Lord in areas that I've needed to repent, huge areas of things I needed to believe. Like, I would I knew them in my head, but to really believe them. And so Pericleo's invitation of where is God inviting you to repent? What is he inviting you to believe? And then how can you take a step forward in love?
Andrea Griffith:And those all look so different for us, like they're gonna look different for me than they look for you, and so I think that's what I've appreciated the most about Parakaleo and we started it this way with our first podcast. It's not a how to because for you to do it is gonna be very different than how God is gonna want me to do it.
Denine Blevins:That's right.
Andrea Griffith:But it is getting my heart to the feet of Jesus and getting my ear tuned to the Holy Spirit for how he wants me to live today.
Denine Blevins:Yeah. Yeah. The words that come to mind for me is like it's it's like an operating system. It's it's like a way of viewing the world, it's a way of of moving. So even even me coming into this podcast episode, you know, I think Deneen before Parikhileo would have said, I have to say the right things, you know, if I walk into a room, I got to get a smarty person in the room, I have to prove myself And that has listed so much because of things like the verdict is in over me, you know, I'm not going to prove nothing to lose.
Denine Blevins:I'm free. I'm free in Christ so I can just be me and I can share from my heart and I can, you know, really appreciate the work that God has done in you, Andrea, and there's not a sense of like comparison, but it's just it's because there's this gospel operating system in me. And, obviously, you know, sometimes I forget to lean into that for sure. Yes. Yes.
Denine Blevins:We believe. We May, but it may follow the difference in the world and how we relate to one another, how we relate to God, and how we relate to ourselves.
Andrea Griffith:Yeah. And that changes everything, how we relate to God and how we relate to each other. And, yes, we leak all the time, which is why we need a group like this. Keep So reminding I, again, just have to say thank you, Deneen, for the work that you're doing. I'm just one person, but I am so grateful and I know God is doing that work all over the world, like how we started talking tonight in different groups and in different women's lives and different women in ministry.
Andrea Griffith:And it it's not us at all, it's just getting our hearts to the truth that God has placed in his word, but we leak it out and we forget it and we need the reminder and we need the safe place to process so that we can get to that truth and move forward in freedom. So thank you. Thank you for being on this podcast and thank you so much for doing what you do.
Denine Blevins:Oh, it's my pleasure, Andrea. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Andrea Griffith:Thanks for coming, and thanks for joining us for this podcast of the Church Hub. I want to give you all things Parakaleo, so you will find a link, there in the show notes of how you can sign up for Parakaleo. Any way that we could help connect you to Parakaleo and to Deneen and her ministry and all the different women. There are women all over the world just coming alongside, listening to the Holy Spirit and linking arms with each other. One of my favorite things about Parakaleo is we say that we're all walking together toward eternity.
Andrea Griffith:We're all walking together toward the end of God's kingdom, and we get to walk each other home. And so I just want to invite you to step into a group with like minded believers who are just walking each other home imperfectly, brokenly, but, we know where we're going and we know who's getting us there. And so we would love for you to join and be a part of this. Thanks for joining us today. If you'd like to learn more about the church hub and how we're strengthening ministry leaders and the families who walk with them, you can visit the churchhub.org.
Andrea Griffith:Until we meet again, I'll be praying that you experience the nearness of Jesus.