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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
Lorenzo (00:00)
And Lauren Richmond, welcome to the TryTank Podcast.
Loren Richmond Jr (00:05)
Thanks for having me.
Lorenzo (00:06)
You know, it's kind of weird because you've been working with the Triton podcasts for since we started like three years ago. And this is I think the first time we've ever had you on. this you're you and this one you'll be working both in front and behind. So you said you've done it all with us now.
Loren Richmond Jr (00:19)
Yeah, I'm not
sure if you should be paying me to do this interview or I should be paying you.
Lorenzo (00:25)
Exactly right.
So first of all, congratulations on your sub stack. I think it is a really good sub stack. I enjoy reading it. I think that not only the books that you sort of mentioned in there are I have bought more than several. I am sorry to say to to ⁓ to to the detriment of my budget I have but they're really good books. You talk about them, you bring in the good points, the bad points, you you're they're really honest reviews.
But also the fact that you are also talking about the church in general, the church at large, which is what led us to this conversation today, because one of your emails, the headline of it was 10 ways church will be different in 10 years. And then a little bit later, you did that one in April. And then later in April, you also did 10 more ways in which the church will be different in 10 years, which is.
is a is speaking my language as someone who practices strategic foresight, but also because I think some of the I wonder if I would still be having you on some of the match exactly what we've been saying at right time for for a little bit of a while. And before we'll get to those in just a moment. But I've got to ask you before we get to them, because I did notice something that a lot of them talk about building salaries, structures, legal wrappers. Oh, I don't know if this is I think this is good, right? That almost nothing
Loren Richmond Jr (01:26)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (01:50)
in what you're talking about is about belief formation or the encounter with God. Do you think is that because the institution is what is actually changing and not the beliefs just what sort of holds it together or because the plumbing is sometimes easier to forecast than the soul?
Loren Richmond Jr (02:11)
Well, I would say what I would agree with what you first said. Like I don't think the beliefs need to change. It's the structure or clothing or whatever metaphor we want to use around it. Absolutely.
Lorenzo (02:25)
And it's this someone could have said this right years ago. This is for any of us who've been following sort of the reading Ryan's blog about changing the church and the numbers of demographics who have seen this. This isn't new to us. Right. This is this is something. Why do you think the church still sort of doesn't seem to get that part that no one's saying?
Stop believing Jesus and go and become something totally different. And like I said, we'll get to what you're thinking in a moment, but we're saying change the wrapper that it's in, changing some of the things about how we do it, the insistency on always having a building, always being Sunday mornings, all these things that are not part of our creeds or who we are. Why is the church finding it still so difficult years after this has begun to be a topic? Why is it still not hitting?
Loren Richmond Jr (03:19)
I mean, there are many things, but a few of them come to mind. Change is hard, change is loss. So to change something drastic like that is a big loss that folks are hesitant to do. Obviously, like institutions have a bit of inertia that is hard to, it's like a battleship or a, you aircraft carrier, kind of hard to turn around or shift directions. And certainly like the
Lorenzo (03:42)
Mm.
Loren Richmond Jr (03:49)
I think some of the, I'm not sure how to say culture maybe of church is one that we don't change quickly. Obviously a lot of that I think being a good thing are related to our foundational beliefs. We wouldn't think we want to change anything drastically, but those sort of built-ins make it real hard to change.
Lorenzo (04:11)
Change is hard, man, you would think, example, ⁓ change is hard, but the people on the Titanic knew that they needed to get on different boats when it was sinking, right? It's like, all of us can see that the change is here and still, right? This is the reason at Triton, we began, for those of you who follow organizational management, we began with Cotter's sort of theory of change. And it begins with urgency, right? Theoretically, once people recognize the urgency,
Loren Richmond Jr (04:37)
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (04:41)
It's much easier to lead into the change. But here is like, we recognize the urgency, but somehow that's it. We're like stuck like deer in a headline with it.
Loren Richmond Jr (04:49)
Well,
I'm not sure. I think this is what the challenge is. Like, I don't know what the data is in the Episcopal church right around like church decline or attendance decline. But like in my tradition that I'm ordained the Christian church disciples of Christ, like the denomination essentially peaked, like if I'm remembering correctly, like in the mid sixties. But because there was sort of like, again, that sort of institutional momentum or like
Lorenzo (05:18)
Mm.
Loren Richmond Jr (05:19)
there wasn't any real drastic decline that happened at me. The people who were there stayed there for 20, 30 years. So it was 20, 30 years before things really started looking differently. And then it was in the late 80s and 90s that you saw churches really begin to struggle and start to close. So again, it's 30 years down the road and then now here we are another 30 years and I don't know.
Lorenzo (05:46)
It's something. ⁓ I think C.S. Lewis would be bringing screw tape into the picture right about now. So we're going get to your predictions now. Before we do, ⁓ I've got to ask you, ⁓ how did you come about them? And please let our audience know and introduce them to Jane McGonigal. ⁓ That's sort of where it began with. then how
Loren Richmond Jr (05:53)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (06:13)
why it is that you are, if you will, for lack of better word, qualified to tell us what you see sort of coming down the pike.
Loren Richmond Jr (06:19)
Yeah. So this kind of started out as just an exercise. I had this book sitting around for a while. Like I have stacks of books everywhere around my office and eventually was like, yeah, I'll get to this one. was a book by Jane McGonigal, if I'm saying her name right, Imaginable, How to Create a Hopeful Future in Your Own Life, Your Community, The World. And I think she's some kind of futurist. Like this is kind of what she does for a living is.
Lorenzo (06:30)
No.
Yep, you are.
Yeah, she is. know her.
She's actually a futures with the Institute for the Future where I was trained. she, I, yeah, she's, she's a, she's a great person. So it's a good book.
Loren Richmond Jr (06:51)
Wow.
Yeah,
yeah. and so she just had this idea of like, she details in the book, like these sort of future thinking exercises, and I didn't get into all of them. Some of them felt a bit tedious to me, whatever. But, ⁓ you know, it's like, someone who, like, I'll just be honest, like I've had over 200 conversations with leading thinkers, authors, sociologists, all that, like, ⁓
I've read at least 200 books, 300 probably in the last several years. So I don't have like a ton of name recognition or frankly titles, but like I've done the work to have a sense of like, what might be happening? What might be coming down the pike?
Lorenzo (07:41)
Well, you know, I'm going to use this term, but this is a term of endearment. So take it on the good side. You're a church geek, like some of us, right? Some of us who get up early to... I like geek better. That talks more about my past in high school than anything else. All right, so let's get to them. I don't know, should we just take them in order or how do you... First of all, guess, are there any that you're at this point...
Loren Richmond Jr (07:46)
Yes, I am. Church nerd.
Okay.
Sure.
Lorenzo (08:07)
willing to take back. It's been a few months. Are there any that you're like, ooh, maybe I shouldn't have done that or.
Loren Richmond Jr (08:14)
Yeah, I think the first one, and I'm looking through them all now, I don't think anything that I'd necessarily disagree with. think like number one is people will pay to come to church is like the most extreme and frankly ridiculous. And I'll just give some context on that because like that's what McGonagall, if I remember correctly in the book says explicitly, like come up with something like just sort of way out there and ridiculous. And then
Lorenzo (08:22)
Okay?
Yeah.
Loren Richmond Jr (08:43)
Like that's why you know, you're that helps get you on the, on the path, so to speak.
Lorenzo (08:49)
Well, in the way, you the prediction of people will pay to come to church, that would just be taking us back to when we had rented pews. This is why we ended up with free churches and all these other things. But so that would just sort of be going back. It's not out of the realm of possibilities like, my God, I can't believe there would be a cover charge. It's like, we've been there.
Loren Richmond Jr (08:55)
Right. And I think.
Right.
Yeah. She says, I think this is called Dator's law. Any useful statement about the future should at first seem ridiculous. So people will pay to come to church. Sounds ridiculous.
Lorenzo (09:15)
Yes.
In some way, they already do, actually, right? Isn't that stewardship campaign when they make those pledges, So in some ways, but this would be a more formal sort of way of saying that there would be an entry fee for people in church. ⁓ Well, we'll see. this is you're right. And even you say churches, you say I can imagine churches being more upfront. This is what it costs per person to make this happen. So here we go. Make it happen. So that's number one.
Loren Richmond Jr (09:22)
Right. Right. Right.
Lorenzo (09:47)
Number two, most congregations will not own a building. Amen to that, first of all.
Loren Richmond Jr (09:53)
Yeah, and
And as someone who really, really, I just found a book at the local library that I was thrilled to find and it's something about like the 12 buildings that are most impactful and historic Christianity, which I'm dying to read. So as someone who is very fond of buildings, I, you know, I just think in the vast majority of contexts, like, I don't know how, I don't know how a church is going to be a four buildings. I just don't know.
Lorenzo (10:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's always interesting. I have a friend who's a rector in New York City. And before you do anything else, just the electricity and insurance is a quarter of a million dollars to just start. Right. It's like, ⁓ couldn't have you used for better ministry type work? Number three, most congregations will be volunteer led. People have heard me talk about this actually, because we are doing a lay led.
Loren Richmond Jr (10:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (10:50)
⁓ ecumenical study right now to figure out what these congregations look like. This is a reality now, right? You're just saying that it's going to continue to grow and it's going to be most congregations.
Loren Richmond Jr (11:00)
Yeah, again, like this is where you've already said it. Like I think being a student of Christian history sort of like directs the future if any way, like in many ways, because whether we think about like I, after this, I'm talking to Lovett Weems who's the United Methodist author. And certainly like the history of Methodism is like a lot of folks who are just like circuit writing preachers who are, they weren't like professionalized in any sense.
You know, I'm thinking about African-American traditions, other, I had another sub stack where I talked about the client of mainline clergy availability or the lack of supply. know, someone from Australia commented like, Hey, this is, this is a trend for us. We all have volunteer pastors over here.
Lorenzo (11:49)
Yeah,
yeah. And again, that's just taking us back to earlier days of the church. this is, again, to point to the reality of this. In the Episcopal Church right now, for every priest that's entering ministry, we have two that are retiring. So you can see that ⁓ there's a point at which this line is going to cross and you're going to be like, uh-oh, who's going to run these buildings? Number four, I also very much agree with the nominations will mostly
Loren Richmond Jr (12:13)
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (12:19)
cease to exist. ⁓ Say more about that.
Loren Richmond Jr (12:23)
Yeah, again, just had this conversation, was having this conversation with a middle Jeuca Tory leader this week. And certainly there's a lot of talk about post-denominationalism, which I think is reality. So I think when we think, when we often talk about post-denominationalism, it's like, we're just going to kind of be this amalgamous, like left leaning progressive liberal Christianity, which I don't think is true at all. Or, as a
say in another prediction, don't think should be true. ⁓ I think institutionally, the structures will begin as they already are, declining if not collapsing. to be United Methodist or Presbyterian will be more like we might see it like an independent Baptist church. An independent Baptist church is Baptist, but there's no hierarchical structure. Independent Baptist, for instance,
have networks and affiliations, but there's no formal structures.
Lorenzo (13:29)
You see, I would I would push back a little bit on that because Episcopalans, we it's in our title, right? The Episcopalans. So I think that we will always sort of cling on to that. But I can see easily how we're already in full communion with the ELCA at our next general convention. We will be voting on becoming a full communion with the Methodists. so going the next sort of step, if you just keep going a little bit from that, it's like, why do we have to
Loren Richmond Jr (13:45)
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (13:58)
church-wide offices, why don't we just urge since we're already in full communion, we already agree theologically, let's just continue and become stronger and not duplicate efforts. So I could easily see that happening as well. This one, this next one, number five, ⁓ my boss may not like to hear it, seminaries will mostly cease to exist. Now that's an interesting one, talk about that.
Loren Richmond Jr (14:00)
Right.
Right.
I mean, think if anything, the data that's come out or the news that's come out in, even since I wrote this makes us more likely to be true. ⁓
Cause there's two Episcopal schools right in New York city that have mostly closed down, right? General or... Okay, they're smaller in their current form, I should say, right? They're much smaller than their current form. So whether it's explicitly them ceasing to exist like ⁓ Bangor, what was the school that the congressional or the UCC school in Bangor, Maine, like they have ceased to exist for instance,
Lorenzo (14:43)
Well, no, General's actually doing very well right now. Yeah. Correct. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Loren Richmond Jr (15:07)
To my knowledge, they have a nonprofit or foundation or something around that's shepherding some sort of institutional monies that remain. Union Seminary right in New York ⁓ had some air rights that they sold and has gotten them flushed with cash and they're re-evaluating or re-imagining what it means to be seminary. My own alma mater, Phillips Seminary in Tulsa has lots of cash and they seem to be doing okay. But certainly, the data...
Lorenzo (15:12)
Mm.
Loren Richmond Jr (15:37)
or the news, the new stuff around like the administration, Trump administration around like student loans and what have not. I think you're going to make it really hard for pursuing theological education because funding, like student loan funding is going to be tied to earnings outcomes. So we all know pastors don't make a lot of money. So if your school is like
reporting that their graduates are not earning adequate wages, and that's going to make earning or getting federal funding via student loans a lot more difficult. Now, that won't necessarily harm institutions with lot of endowment money. Conversely, though, we also realize folks are going to be working bivocationally. So the idea of someone pursuing a four-year MDiv degree, think, is
Lorenzo (16:21)
Mm.
Loren Richmond Jr (16:33)
as much as I value the MDiv is less and less feasible for many students, whether they be second or third a career student. So I think something like Luther Seminary has a sort of, I don't know what you call it, like a certificate like program. My Seminary, Philip Seminary has a sort of certificate program that's meant to be for like adult learners. So I think those sort of things, almost like a sort of Coursera type model.
Lorenzo (16:56)
Got it.
Loren Richmond Jr (17:03)
which I think I reference here like Duke Divinity has classes or courses in Coursera.
Lorenzo (17:09)
Yeah, no and and the going back to general seminary, which we started with their success now is because they are a hybrid. They only gather the students twice a year on campus in New York City. The rest of the time you're in context in the thing. Do you think I'm not sure we I think we will have fewer seminaries, but you're absolutely right. The ones that have a lot of money will will be around. But I think education will look differently, right? More people will be able to stay at home. I think the days of
Loren Richmond Jr (17:17)
Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Lorenzo (17:38)
sort of place based residential seminaries, that's gonna be a little bit more difficult, but we'll see how that turns out. But I wonder though, what this means ⁓ vis-a-vis the sort of professional class of clergy that we have created. ⁓
Loren Richmond Jr (17:53)
Yeah. I,
I fought that for a long time. This idea, like, how could we not be professional class? And I'll give a shout out. can't remember his name, but the past, one of the past presidents of my alma mater, Phillips Phillips seminary was talking about this decline of professionalization or basically that this, this was a blip rate really in the radar of like the, last 70, 80 years we've had a professionalism of clergy and the historical norms are.
least in America, not that. And I begrudgingly, as much as I lament my own paycheck, like I think that's just going to be the reality.
Lorenzo (18:30)
Yeah, I could see that. This next one ⁓ in some ways makes me smile. number six, mega churches will mostly cease to exist.
Loren Richmond Jr (18:43)
Yeah, this is again, because I have my ears in a lot of different conversations or listening on a lot of different conversations. This is the one I suppose that could be one that could be dismissed because as we've talked about already, like institutional inertia is such that it's hard to change things and there's still going to be like big hulking non-denominational churches around.
But I think even in those big mega church models, they're shifting toward what they call a multi-site model. They're beginning to function more like many denominations in many ways. And I think like, like the reality is like it is in the mainline, they're going to have these huge buildings that they're going to like figure out, Oh crap, we have to figure out how to pay for these.
Lorenzo (19:18)
Yeah.
All comes yet again, we come back to buildings. ⁓ This one's interesting and I number seven and I'm not sure if I'm there with you on this one, but a significant number of people will attend church via virtual reality. And I said, let me begin by saying the reason why I don't necessarily know whether or not this will be I just don't know that in 10 years we will be.
Loren Richmond Jr (19:37)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (19:58)
back in the metaverse that Mike, Mark Zuckerberg once wanted us to just ease our way right into what makes you believe, what makes you think that VR is in our future within 10 years?
Loren Richmond Jr (20:11)
Yeah, this could be again, this could, this is one that could be questioned. ⁓ cause I feel like certainly it seems like meta has kind of given up on VR, right? In recent year, in recent months, I thought I heard that. I think, yeah, so this could be wrong. ⁓ but I think like, again, thinking about how life is increasingly lived at home, whether it's work from home or what have you, people don't go out like certainly the younger generations.
Lorenzo (20:22)
Yep, yep. That's all about AI.
Loren Richmond Jr (20:41)
are going out less and doing things less. it may not be VR per se, but again, I think the trend is towards less socialization out in public.
Lorenzo (20:53)
which is related to what you have as number eight, which is most churches will rely on video sermons.
Loren Richmond Jr (20:59)
And this is again thinking about like the decline of well-educated clergy. So if I'm a volunteer, like again, think about like, this is where I think the LDS is sort of helpful to think about from a structural model. They have volunteer presidents, I think they call them, who are just, you know, folks, members of the community who kind of step up for a season to be the leaders.
And I don't know, again, I don't know their model super well or, even a leader, but you think like they have limitations of time and family and responsibilities, job responsibilities. like thinking about my own, our own church context, like it's gonna be hard to craft a good sermon every week. So we might perhaps like a video Bible study, just plug in, plug in a good sermon for the week.
Lorenzo (21:53)
See, what I think about the last two that we mentioned, a significant number of people will attend church via virtual reality and most churches will rely on video sermons. I think both of those are getting us away from being physically present to each other, which I would see as, I mean, I think that one of the most important parts of church is being with each other, being ⁓ present to each other, incarnate with each other, right? We're incarnational people. And it's just, it's...
Loren Richmond Jr (22:08)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (22:22)
That's, think life, Christian life is meant to be lived in community. And I think that both of those would take away from that. So I hope that both of those do not come quite as you have listed them here. Number nine, highly produced worship music will become rare in most churches. And here, to be clear, you're not talking about like a choir in an organ singing sort of like chant music from, you know, TALIS or something.
Loren Richmond Jr (22:28)
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (22:51)
You're talking more about the Hillsong type praise bands.
Loren Richmond Jr (22:55)
Yeah, I'm very much, this is very much informed by the non-denominational evangelical tradition, which certainly some mainline churches have chased after or attempted to replicate. Again, this is something that may be wrong, I listening to it. If, if, as I said above, ⁓ mega churches begin to cease to exist again, think of the trickle down effect. They're going to have less resources for.
humongous music productions and I think like I don't think the outside person really understands the intense amount of just resources money and people that go into these really highly produced worship music scenes and also from some of the like ⁓ Leaders I follow or influencers. I that's not the right word but scholars because one of the people I had in my own podcast
Kelsey McGinnis has a PhD in musicology and regularly writes for Christianity Today on this worship scene. Things that I've seen from her and talked to her about is like, generations are kind of less enamored, if you will, by this highly produced music scene. So they might just be cool with somebody up with a guitar.
Lorenzo (24:16)
Well, yeah, I could see that certainly happening in the sense of if the younger generations who seem to be what these highly produced basically concerts on a Sunday morning are aiming to do to attract, then the younger generations that want authenticity will be like, I'd rather hear someone with a little bit bad voice or whatnot. It doesn't necessarily because the institutional distrust, I think, is still very much there. yeah, I could. And you're right.
Loren Richmond Jr (24:26)
Right.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (24:44)
the trickle down effect of if we are losing the bigger mega churches who are generally the ones employing them, then I could see that. 10, churches will become more entangled with government. ⁓ man, that one actually hurt. ⁓ But apparently, you you say that this was your daughter's idea and you grimaced. But ⁓ tell us about that.
Loren Richmond Jr (24:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, cause I was like, when I did this first list, had nine and my daughter, was like, what's a, what's a 10th one? And my daughter's like this. I'm like, ⁓ crap, you're probably right. Like, I mean, this is when I hope does not come true, but I think it's already come true in many ways and it's going to be coming, continue to become true. Like at least for the needs, the near future to, to be somewhat Frank, but also
Lorenzo (25:16)
Hahaha.
Loren Richmond Jr (25:34)
ambivalent or ⁓ ambiguous, should say. I hope when, like, certainly I would like to see a different sort of administration. ⁓ And I, and I, as much as I think like the Christian left has rightly pushed back against some of the frankly evils of our current administration, like I just saw
headline from the Denver Post about detainee suicides being up, is heartbreaking and awful, evil. ⁓
Lorenzo (26:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, I see what you're describing, though, as sort of like the the extension or the next logical step of Christian nationalism, right, where it just sort of becomes you see. And that leads us down to like the Handmaid's Tale, which is a bad sort of future where I agree with you, but not for the reasons that you write. I agree with you. Or as you say, maybe I agree with your daughter. But because here's what I think. I think that once again, the church is going to be called upon.
Loren Richmond Jr (26:22)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Hmm.
Lorenzo (26:43)
to be at the front line of receiving the people who are suffering the effects of, in this case, I think it'll be from artificial intelligence. And when that happens, once again, governments will rely on us to help whether we retrain people or get them to apply for benefits. Because of the footprint that we as churches have, right? There's 360,000 churches in the US. I think that that would be a way of...
Loren Richmond Jr (26:52)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (27:11)
of mobilizing to help. I was stunned by this. I'm doing a little bit of research because I am trying to figure out where could the church help when the AI sort of effects start to be felt. And I was stunned to find out that 25 years ago, the Church of England, in the Church of and actually in the United Kingdom, there were no food banks. And then the church, because of the necessity, stepped in to become sort of food distribution and food banks.
And now they're the largest distributor of food. And you can see the connection between government and the church there to help. So I could once again see that the church becomes sort of that front line, first line of the fence for that. So I don't necessarily think that it's, with you, I agree that I hope that it is not Christian nationalism that leads us to be more intertwined with the church and government. But I see us as being sort of like helping government to do and help.
Loren Richmond Jr (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Lorenzo (28:09)
people in the world.
Loren Richmond Jr (28:11)
Yeah,
and I'd be totally cool with that. guess my, and this is, I suppose, a bit of a controversial opinion, but my perhaps controversial opinion is I think there's probably going to be a pretty drastic sea change, right, in our government. And I just hope that, like,
the Christian left does not find the temptation overwhelming to replicate the same sort of patterns and behaviors that are current. Some of the Christian right have done, I guess.
Lorenzo (28:46)
Yeah, no, I agree. And but if you have to choose between the Christian right or the Christian left becoming associated with government, I'm going to take the left. Moving on, then now we're so those were the first 10 in your first article. Now we're on to the second 10 that you wrote about a month later. Ten more ideas for the future of the church in about 10 years. And it's interesting because in the first one, I remember you saying the nominations will mostly cease to exist. And yet your number one on this one is the nominations are
Loren Richmond Jr (29:00)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (29:16)
as certifying bodies. So they go from almost not existing to now doing something completely different.
Loren Richmond Jr (29:19)
Yeah.
Hey, I'm just spit balling here. I mean, again, this would kind of track if they're mostly not cease, if they're mostly ceasing to exist or they're, they're operating as a totally different function. so when I think about denominations of certifying bodies, I think about like, again, I work sort of in the medical field. So, you know, a doctor certified by the, you know, there's AMA, whatever. ⁓
Lorenzo (29:25)
Yeah.
AMA or
Loren Richmond Jr (29:51)
There's these like as a chaplain, I can get board certification through the, I forget what it's ACPE. There's other certifying organizations for chaplaincy. like there, and like, again, this is one of McGonagall's things. It's like, can you see examples of this already happening? And there clearly are examples. So like the wild fig network is a, is a network that's functioning as, you know, we'd call it traditionally a denomination, but it essentially is like a.
Lorenzo (30:03)
Yeah.
Loren Richmond Jr (30:21)
clergy certifying network. There's also the Curian network, which is again ⁓ for folks who have left more conservative church settings, whether for need denominational standing, to use a word, for institutional jobs.
Lorenzo (30:37)
Yes, in other words,
the in in it's kind of like being a lawyer that's part of the bar. It's kind of like being a plumber that has been certified by the government, you know, that you have a license. in some ways, I could see that, you know, I ⁓ yeah, actually, in some ways, they already do. And if they're not doing the day to day management, just sort of minimum standards.
Loren Richmond Jr (30:44)
Right, right.
Right. Right.
Right.
Lorenzo (31:02)
⁓ I still believe that there's a lot of good that our denominations can do, so I hope that they're still around to do that. Number two in your second group, ⁓ denominational identity without denominational control.
Loren Richmond Jr (31:06)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah, so I guess I'm kind of cheating here because this is very similar to one from my first list in that, you know, churches may be united methods without explicit tying to a denomination per se. But again, this is sort of meant to be connected to number one ⁓ that I could be, for instance, ordained or commissioned by my denomination.
But ⁓ I could serve in a church that's not going to be denominationally affiliated. Like I could eventually serve in a, in a denominational church or non-denominational church.
Lorenzo (31:52)
Got it.
The number three, and you really are going after with the nominations on the second list, the nominations as consulting networks.
Loren Richmond Jr (32:06)
Yeah. So again, I'm thinking about like, thought about this, like what are churches already or excuse me, what are churches or denominations in this case? Like what are they already doing? And I think that the challenge for denominations right now, in my opinion, is they're not like explicit enough about what they're doing and showing the value. So denominations or, or judicatory leaders, for instance, and I, can imagine almost any denomination.
Functions in many ways is the church consultant. Now, as someone who sort of bills myself in some capacity as a church consultant, if I come into a church as a consultant, like I'm charging fees, like a big established consultant firm is charging humongous fees, but because a church is a part of that denomination, broadly speaking, no one's billing anybody for that support.
Lorenzo (33:05)
I see that and again, would probably that might be a better use for denomination right now than some of the things denominations are doing. We won't get into that. Number four churches as mission driven community hubs. ⁓ Yeah, this is very much already happening, right? Where they rent part of their building for other parts. It's part of the since Platon Pledge can no longer cover the rent and rather the expenses. We bring in some social enterprise income to help us with that.
Loren Richmond Jr (33:15)
Right.
Right.
So this is a shameless plug for my forthcoming book, Lorenzo from Church Publishing, Church's Community Hub. Please go check it out. It's available for pre-order on the Church Publishing website. ⁓ Yeah, thank you. But I think in big and small ways, because of what we talked about before, if a church is going to have a building, like they're going to have to figure out ways to, you know, make money off the building, to use the building well.
Lorenzo (33:47)
Hoon Hoon!
Yeah.
Loren Richmond Jr (34:05)
I think the realities of real estate in most contexts, mean, real estate is like really expensive as we've already talked about. So if there's some kind of small nonprofit or social enterprise and they're trying to do good in their community, getting into a lease is going to be real tough for them. So I think being community hubs, like, and you've already talked about it, like being a resource for
job retraining what have you.
Lorenzo (34:36)
Yeah, other things that are needed in your community. I also believe, by the way, and this is something that Tritonics is getting into together with some work that we're doing with the PC USA is to do some ⁓ land analysis to figure out what actually beyond, know, we've seen a whole bunch of cafes that have opened. Some people have done affordable housing. But what are other things? I don't think that we have cast that net wide enough to see what are other opportunities that are present that we haven't looked at.
Loren Richmond Jr (34:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (35:05)
And I think that this is obviously now I'm just plugging your book all over the place, but this is something that Triton will be will be getting into doing so, helping to look at and do the same way that a McDonald's or another franchise or would look at a piece of look, would look at a location and would analyze it to see, this good for what we're trying to do? And this, by the way, would be the same thing that the church normally would do.
Loren Richmond Jr (35:05)
Well, folks need to read my book, clearly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (35:35)
When we're like, is this a good place to open a church? What we should be doing is beyond just church like, OK, we already have a church there. What else can this place do? Can it become an after school learning center like a Kumon Center or a Huntington Learning Center, which are very profitable? Could it do other things? And they can be missionally aligned easily by making sure that people on the margins have access to them. So I think that that that makes a lot of sense if we begin to look at it that and I can't wait for you book. I have already preordered it, ⁓ as you know.
Loren Richmond Jr (35:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lorenzo (36:03)
Number five is related to it, which is more creative legal structures, right? That we are not going to be limited to just a 501c3 because every time, and I don't mean to be answering, like, why did you put this one in there for you? But every time that I mentioned to someone about doing a social enterprise or something, the first thing, if they know something about their 501c3 tax status, they might talk about UBI, unrelated business income, and whether or not are we going to be taxed on that?
Loren Richmond Jr (36:16)
Yeah.
my goodness
Lorenzo (36:33)
So you're right, I think the opportunity is there to think about.
Loren Richmond Jr (36:36)
I address
that in my book, UBI. ⁓ gosh. So let me address number five by also saying something also about number four again. So this was actually pre-COVID Lorenzo and I wish we'd known each other pre-COVID when I was leading a church chart because I think we could have partnered together real well. There was a Episcopal church. This is about probably 2018, 2019. ⁓
Lorenzo (36:39)
Yeah.
the
Loren Richmond Jr (37:04)
not too far from me that was closed down and I was like up for sale. And I remember thinking like they had a big chunk of land. I'm like, we could put housing here. We could start an afterschool care or daycare and we could do the church and we could make this work. And the folks I talked to just look at me like I had like five heads.
Lorenzo (37:27)
They're obviously like, you're just Satan and you know, there's no way we're doing that. We just want to pray. Yeah. You know, I do believe that, but you see what you're doing there when you were thinking about that is you're thinking holistically. You're thinking beyond just the church, because if you think about it in most places, I'm not saying everywhere, but in most places, the most underutilized space of a campus is the largest space, which is the sanctuary.
Loren Richmond Jr (37:30)
you
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (37:54)
And I think it calls on us to be creative and come up with other ways of doing that, using that. What could it be? ⁓ One of my happiest moments was when I sat in a church that literally, this was in New York City. They are during the week and Saturday night, only Sunday morning at the church, the rest of the time, there were theater, St. Clement's right off, it's an off Broadway theater. And literally part of the agreements that they do with people.
⁓ that someone's that's going to put on a show is on Sunday, we need to put our altar in the middle of your set. We're not going to change your set. But so one time, literally, it was a little shop of horrors. And in the middle of it, there was the altar is like, well, that this is beautiful. This is just amazing because it's just like they're using their biggest space to earn enough to be a church the rest of the time in New York City, which I think is great.
Loren Richmond Jr (38:29)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Lorenzo (38:50)
⁓ Number six, internal. ⁓ go ahead.
Loren Richmond Jr (38:51)
Yeah. Well, let me, let me say real quick.
Let me say something else about five a couple of weeks ago. A few weeks ago, I was at a non-denominational church in the South Denver Metro. They had a like an at lunch program, essentially that they were, welcomed in high school kids. They're literally right next to a high school. So they'd like a lunch kind of sort of hangout program they had in their basement. They had a coffee shop. Each of these programs were unique.
Lorenzo (39:15)
Okay.
Loren Richmond Jr (39:21)
Nonprofits and i'm trying to get like the exact language from them But they structured them in a way where they like they had control of these 501c3s So like there was some like the 501c3s like for the kids program lunch program had retained ⁓ gotten grants for some little things and
Lorenzo (39:46)
Which sometimes they may not make grants to churches, whoever granted that money, right? There's a lot of like local banks are good at giving grants, but they don't necessarily want to give to a religious organization, but they will to like the little nonprofit that's in there that helps kids. Yeah.
Loren Richmond Jr (39:49)
Right. Right.
Right. Right.
Right.
But they structured a way so they felt like they still had missional control, which obviously, you know, some churches are going to feel more strongly about than others. Uh, but the point being like, there's, they're really thinking creatively about their, um, their legal structures. Um, the, the best thing, I mean, I guess it depends on your perspective on this, but they had gotten a grant for a healthy foods vending machine, right? And so they had stocked it with apples and
bananas and what have you. And then like once the apples and bananas were gone, there's like, okay, cool. Here's an elephant soda and KitKats in there, whatever. So, I mean, I didn't judge their efforts there, but they were sort of the plundering the Egyptians there in many ways, if you've heard that term. ⁓
Lorenzo (40:39)
Here's some Fido's and some Doritos. It's like whoa.
they probably realize is like, we had to, you know, throw out a whole bunch of fruit. Why don't we go ahead and put what people want to buy?
Loren Richmond Jr (40:57)
But they
they told me they'd grossed 30k from vending machines
Lorenzo (41:03)
Wow.
⁓ I have seen people with ⁓ that gross like $60,000 from a pumpkin patch and they sell pumpkins around all these things. I mean, so much of it is contextual, right? If you're in an area that really goes out and about this was in Virginia and they sell a ton of pumpkins, obviously, some of them sell Christmas trees at Christmas time. You don't have to think when you think of a social enterprise, you don't have to think of a year round sort of thing. You can also think about like the equivalent of a pop up, if you will.
Loren Richmond Jr (41:16)
Right.
Right, which is a good tease for us here?
Lorenzo (41:35)
So number six, itinerant and circuit writing leadership.
Loren Richmond Jr (41:41)
Yeah, again, this is where understanding church history, this has been a thing. I could see it becoming a thing again.
Lorenzo (41:44)
Yeah. Yep.
Yep, it already is. And I know several priests in smaller, more rural places that you have. I've yet to see one that has more than like three cures for three different churches that they're helping. But it I've never heard more than one person in the Church of England who had 28 little churches in his little parish.
Loren Richmond Jr (41:52)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (42:10)
that he had to take care of. I'm like, dear God, they some of them never see is mind you, many of them were, you know, chapels of ease that were there that you don't really necessarily have to visit that often. But yeah, 28 under one person that's how do you form community? This goes back to your other point about more volunteers and being more volunteer led, right? Number seven, worship isn't every Sunday. Now talk about that, because that could be controversial to a lot of people or will be controversial to a lot of people.
Loren Richmond Jr (42:19)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean, certainly I'm a fan of Sunday morning. Like this weekend, my wife and I were out at some little bed and breakfast on the eastern plains of Colorado, and I walked like five blocks down to this tiny little Methodist church, who the pastor there was circuit riding, if it were well, splitting her time between two churches on the plains. So I'm a big fan of being in worship every Sunday, but I think for all these reasons we've talked about, like itinerant preachers and
volunteer leaders and like, just think the reality is like social sociologically too, like people aren't coming to anything every week. So this is one I lament a little bit.
Lorenzo (43:19)
You know, I keep talking and saying that a smaller church is actually an opportunity for us to focus more on what it means to be church. And it is not the buildings as much as I love the music and cathedral since it is not that it is relationships with each other and growing as disciples of Jesus. And I think that that is what we need to do with each other. Again, we should use this as an opportunity to say, how do we do that? number eight, pop up and mobile church models.
Loren Richmond Jr (43:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Murphy! Murphy!
Yeah, I think this is... Yeah, like I feel like this is already thing. when we think about, because again, McGonagall is always like, what are some evidences of this already taking place? Now, I think the revival tradition in some, conservative churches has kind of waned. ⁓ Where like when I was a kid, having a week long revival and having a revival speaker, I don't think those happen as much anymore.
Lorenzo (43:51)
Do you see, is this going to be like someone just comes in with a van and sets up a church?
Yeah.
Loren Richmond Jr (44:18)
At least probably not in my neck was maybe still in the south. but think about like food trucks, think about concerts, think about how this sort of thing already happens in many ways in our society. Like, I don't think it's too far of a stretch to again, think about like having a, a church food truck or a church truck that rolls in.
Lorenzo (44:35)
Yeah, we have several
of those. fact, before I even joined Triton, that was when I got a grant from the National Church to do a food truck. for every sandwich we sold, we gave away one for someone that was hungry that day. And it helped finance the church. But then I had to leave the church and that was something else. the food truck still around in Los Angeles, riding around, it's still there. And the early days of Triton, we had an idea since which was a response to a reality.
Loren Richmond Jr (44:57)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (45:04)
Which was, hey, kids aren't coming to church on Sunday because they can now play soccer on Sunday mornings. And I said, well, why don't we get a van and go take the church to them and do like a tailgate church? You know, let's pray for the teams. Let's pray. It's like, bring it to them if that's where they're at. I think, you know, in this, what you're also asking is that we have some ecclesiastical flexibility about what does it mean to be church? And I, and I, by the way, I'm a big fan of the Creeds. I'm very orthodox. I'm actually a little bit high church.
Loren Richmond Jr (45:09)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Lorenzo (45:33)
But it doesn't mean that beyond the creeds, let's look at everything else should be on the table, right? I just think we should consider that. ⁓ Number nine, staff as volunteer mobilizers. That makes sense, right? It matches what you said, which is going to be mostly volunteer.
Loren Richmond Jr (45:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, like if there are paid staff, just because the reality of work and family and economy and sociology, think, I'll just speak for me. If I come to volunteer at church, ⁓ put me to work, you know, and I think.
Lorenzo (46:09)
You're gonna get a whole bunch of emails we'd love to use you to work And number ten which I think is actually spot-on but I want to hear what you what you think about it Or how you came to it ⁓ a return to tradition not generic worship Which I think in some ways if I'm reading that right, it's also a bit of an indictment on current worship trends in the country
Loren Richmond Jr (46:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, certainly we've seen this on the left or excuse me, on the conservative Christian where the praise and worship, contemporary worship movement has sort of taken over as the de facto worship style. Even churches that had traditionally a more high church or formalized worship structure like the Church of the Nazarene, right, has almost given in to the sort of contemporary Christian worship style of a sermon and
music being the only really two elements of the liturgy as we might say. ⁓ But I think in some ways, I may be wrong in this, but I think the revised common lectionary being an example of this move towards a more generic worship, and I think in some sense in the main line, mean, gosh, who's the sanctified art who's a Presbyterian ⁓ source?
puts out sermon series and it's good stuff. Like I've used this stuff before, but I can't tell you how many churches I saw using sanctified arts worship sermon series over Easter. I think like, I think it would, it's counterintuitive, but I think it would be good. Like if I go to an Episcopal church, like it's very Anglican. You know, if I go to a Methodist church, it's very Methodist.
Lorenzo (47:53)
it.
You're making the case right there for high church. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. So, know, ⁓ McGonigal's entire point now that we've gotten to all 20 of them is to imagine the future in order to act on it so that we can do something about it now. So if you believe, right, even, you know, half of these, some of them were derivative of the others. ⁓ In a very practical sense, what should a 40 year old pastor with a building and a mortgage do?
Loren Richmond Jr (47:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Lorenzo (48:26)
this calendar year? can they do this year, not in 10 years, but this year to actually prepare for some of these futures as you're talking?
Loren Richmond Jr (48:35)
I mean, I would number one, like immediately start some kind of 501c3 or some kind of nonprofit attached to your church, but separate from your church that could get like funding. Like I had a podcast with Bob Yeager who I forget, Sacred Places, I forget their title exactly, but that's something he suggested like.
Lorenzo (48:56)
Sacred something for sacred places. I'm forgetting exactly now. There you go.
Loren Richmond Jr (48:57)
Yeah. Partners for sacred places, I think.
Um, but that, that would be like, immediately like then start, start applying for grants for community grants, talking about how your, your nonprofit is, is serving the community. And obviously you gotta, you gotta like protect those boundaries and, and make sure you're not being disingenuous or also like completely sacrificing the mission of the church. But like, then it's like, well, nonprofits.
pay rent and nonprofits pay salaries. I mean, like, don't be disingenuous, but also like you can add, you can add a stream of income to help the work of your church.
Lorenzo (49:42)
Yeah, I think that's that's smart and more people will be needing this. also encourage people. We have a podcast and one of our earlier days, I think several times I think I've spoken with Bob Johansson when he talks about thinking future back. And I would just encourage people if that 40 year old pastor look around ⁓ now for where your own neighborhood is changing and start to realize what what may be coming down your sort of lane and prepare for it.
Loren Richmond Jr (49:55)
Yeah.
Lorenzo (50:12)
Talk to your congregation about it. Say this is likely to happen. We see it, you know, extrapolate, look into the future a little bit. Don't be always be reactive. Do a little bit more strategic foresight of, of, of the future. Lauren, if you had to do add one more so that people get an extra one, if you had to add one more to your 20, what would you add as one? ⁓ yeah, now, at a couple of months after you've, you've written those.
Loren Richmond Jr (50:21)
Mm-hmm.
Gosh, that's a good question. ⁓
I don't know this is more theological and hopeful. I think that the church will still exist. ⁓ Let's just have faith in that. think there's sort of this, there's a lot of angst right now in mainline circles and I think for good reason, but let's trust and believe that the church will exist because as long as there's people gathering together in His name, it'll still exist.
Lorenzo (50:55)
Yes.
Amen, two or three. Remember that is a very I keep telling people that's a very low bar. Jesus knew what he was talking about when he gave us that. All right. So tell our listeners how remind us again the name of your subsec, the name of your book, how people can get a hold of you, the name of your podcast so that people can follow you and learn more about your work.
Loren Richmond Jr (51:18)
Yeah.
Hehe.
Yeah, thank you. So. Sub sack is the church nerd, ⁓ podcast is future Christian available on all the streaming networks. And then the title of the book is the church as community hub, trying to find the subtitle here.
Lorenzo (51:57)
You can tell the publisher had something to do with the subtitle.
Loren Richmond Jr (52:02)
Yeah, the churches community hub
sharing spaces help neighborhoods thrive available now for preorder both on church publishing and on the big guy Amazon.
Lorenzo (52:12)
⁓ And if someone just wants to do you also be on sub stack are you like on blue sky or any other circles?
Loren Richmond Jr (52:20)
I mean, yeah,
I'm not on blue sky because that was like, I don't know, the trend has been like, you're supposed to get off blue sky because then you're just in a bubble. I'm, uh, I've been working on this for the book publishing press. at Lauren Richmond Jr. On all the socials.
Lorenzo (52:28)
Yo.
Okay, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Lauren Richmond, thank you very much for joining us. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. It's a great conversation, and I hope our listeners gain something other, even if it's like, he's totally wrong. And let me tell you why. At least it gets us thinking, which is, it's always a good thing. We always need to be thinking about our church and the future. Thanks for being with
Loren Richmond Jr (52:51)
Yeah, let me have it.