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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. This is a space to ask anything and get real answers for real life. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Tammy Brown:Hey, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the debrief podcast. And I have a bit of impostor syndrome today because I'm sitting next to the original cohost of the debrief
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The o g.
Tammy Brown:Hello, Stephanie Schafer. So Matt and I are super excited to have Steph here today.
Stephanie Schaffer:I'm so happy to be here.
Tammy Brown:As we realized okay. Everybody has maybe seen the trend recently that was like go back to 2016 and look at pictures. And I had sent Steph some pictures of her and I from 2016. Mhmm. And then in going through her own reels, she said, did did you realize this is the ten year anniversary of the debrief when I was like crazy.
Stephanie Schaffer:'10 2016, that's when we started the debrief. I'm like, why is and it took me a minute when the trend started to go, why is everyone talking about 2016? And there was, that was ten years ago. Like, I didn't really I thought it just like a weird Like, weird things come up on the other. I was like, everyone's in it 2016.
Stephanie Schaffer:Oh, because that was ten years ago, which feels a
Tammy Brown:decade ago. And so in honor of that, we said, let's get together and celebrate ten years of a podcast that who knew? Who knew we would be here ten years later? So Steph
Stephanie Schaffer:Yes.
Tammy Brown:Give us a little update. How are you?
Stephanie Schaffer:Oh, I'm good. In the last ten years, I've gotten married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I
Stephanie Schaffer:have two children. Yes.
Tammy Brown:Actually Yeah.
Stephanie Schaffer:Sandals Church and the volunteer process is really what
Tammy Brown:You know what? Let's let's take a moment here. I told her we're gonna do this. But let's take a moment, Matt, and talk about how you met your husband and shout out to joining a team here at Sandals Church.
Celeste Contreras:So I was on staff at Sandals Church.
Stephanie Schaffer:I was running our communications team, and we did a big push for volunteers, specifically within our creative team. We're looking for artists and writers and musicians. And anybody who signed up to write as a volunteer got put into my queue. And so I just sent out an email like, hey, you're interested in writing, this will be looked back. I got I think I I must have sent so many emails back.
Stephanie Schaffer:Two people responded. One of them was a guy named Tyler Schaefer
Celeste Contreras:who
Stephanie Schaffer:said, I love this church. Like his response was beautiful and wonderful. Was like, is this guy?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's a good writer though.
Stephanie Schaffer:He's a phenomenal writer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's kinda cheating if you're single.
Stephanie Schaffer:Well, so I found out he's a phenomenal writer and he was in construction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was like Yes. Oh, manly Perfect and conversation. Yeah.
Stephanie Schaffer:And so we were just going back and forth, being very friendly. I had friends encouraging me to put the vibes out there. I was like, I don't wanna be inappropriate. This person's just trying to volunteer. He's sending the emails to his sister trying to figure out like, is she into me?
Stephanie Schaffer:Is this a thing? Because I really like to ask her out. As mom's telling him, she's the girl from the debrief. If you like, if this doesn't work out, you're gonna have to find another church. But, yeah, he signed up to volunteer, and now we're married with two kids and a basset hound.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was just telling you
Stephanie Schaffer:how. Barney. So yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I trained Stephanie for years to be a wife. I used to tell her like how to say remember when I go like this, and I go, oh, wow. And you have two. Boom. So if you're not listening to that car, it's my muscles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so we've been on the phone through tough seasons when I reminded you that we prayed for this. Yes. We prayed for this. So because marriage is not easy, but it is worth it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you do have an amazing husband. I do. You're an incredible person. Mhmm. You even lived with us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right?
Stephanie Schaffer:I did. Yeah. When we got engaged. I moved in with you guys so we could save money on rent and put that toward where we're gonna move in and wedding stuff and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:she So has seen behind the curtain and still attend Sandals Street.
Stephanie Schaffer:I still love them. Still around.
Tammy Brown:So good. And we
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We love you.
Tammy Brown:Obviously, we love you so And we're so happy for you. Okay. So I'm just gonna ask the two of you who've been on the debrief the longest. And Steph, try not to judge me because you're big shoes to fill as was Donna and a few other people who've done this. But I just do my best on here.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. So
Stephanie Schaffer:You do great. I love listening to you. Thank you. Almost as much as I love listening to Matt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But thank you. Yeah. Everybody knows what the
Tammy Brown:talent is. Throw out some questions to the two of you, and you can just reflect on what it's been like, what we've seen shift in culture or conversation when it comes to church, and just how the debrief has kept on keeping on. So first of all, what was it like to make the first episode of the debrief which aired on February 8 of That's 20 wild. Literally ten years ago.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Remember, don't know what Stephanie remembers, but it was actually, I think it was just me and Justin talking. Was, And I thought we were missing something. And Stephanie actually was my assistant at the time. And I think I just randomly said, get a mic and put Stephanie on, which, you know, she's used to this, like she's been to houses with me to fight demons and The title of
Stephanie Schaffer:the table says you get other duties as Yeah, duties as required.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Stephanie was like, yeah, And literally, it was just weird. Just had this premonition, like we need a female voice on the show, like it's just missing, you know, a lot of podcasts now are guys talking.
Tammy Brown:I don't have premonition, probably like an intuition.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Intuition, yeah, intuition, there we go. So, and it worked, and we were going through, I don't if you remember this, we were going through two fifty two, and the idea behind the debrief was is that we would go deeper with the audience as we went through the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, which if you put them together, is 52 chapters, and we said we're gonna do that for a year, and trying to really get our church to go through scripture, and who knew that I could talk so much about so little? I did. You're But Gemini, you know, one of my favorite memories, you know, your mom's in heaven now with Jesus, but they came to the live show, and I teased Stephanie all the time because her hands were shaking.
Stephanie Schaffer:I was so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:nervous. So we did a live studio audience. Was that one year in? Do you remember?
Stephanie Schaffer:It was episode 50. It was almost think it was just about a year in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we didn't know that it was gonna be so successful. It was hugely successful, took off right away. And you were super nervous, but I remember seeing your parents and your mom, who's in heaven with Jesus, but she said, I'm so proud of her. And they were like, that's my girl. It was such a, that for me was like just a real highlight.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you know, we didn't know we gonna lose your mom in 2020. Sorry if I'm making
Stephanie Schaffer:a question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, Yeah,
Stephanie Schaffer:didn't tell her what
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was Yeah, gonna talk What is this? These are emotions. But that was great, and you were such a great contributor, and we had Justin party, who was great but could get a little insane, and you were so great at bringing him back with his random, bizarre comments that were nowhere in the notes. But it was a lot of fun and
Tammy Brown:Yeah, the three of you really navigated it so it well.
Stephanie Schaffer:Was a really special time. I loved being on it. Would say it's like probably one of my favorite parts of my job that I had here at Sam's Church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, how long were you on it?
Stephanie Schaffer:It must have been about what? Three years?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Stephanie Schaffer:Three, four years. Okay. Because I think I my last episode was probably in 2019 or maybe 2020. Because then once COVID happened
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Stephanie Schaffer:I was super pregnant. So I stayed home, tried to stay away from stuff. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We actually shut it down in 2020. Was super nervous. Know, was during cancer culture, you know, just everybody was getting canceled for any like random comment, and you know me, I'm the king of offensive comments. And I was just like, I was like, this is, it didn't feel And so we actually quit doing it. Then I think we started it back up with Jeff Y, he's but he could not, not, amen, come on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I was like, okay, so we had to figure that because it's actually, it's actually harder to sit in your guys' seat than it is to answer the questions. So that's a really difficult It
Tammy Brown:is it like more of a nuanced thing. I'm learning in real time
Stephanie Schaffer:Oh, yeah.
Tammy Brown:To know when to contribute to what you're saying. Yeah. Or, I mean, just being real. Like, sometimes I'm watching the clock and going, okay. We've already spent this too much time on this question.
Tammy Brown:How do I, like Bring it wrap it up without shutting you down or a good thought. Like, it is it is more work. Yes. Well, yeah,
Stephanie Schaffer:I'm trying to participate in the conversation because sometimes you'll just start talking and I'll just sit back listening like it's sermon like, oh, shoot. I'm supposed to be figuring out what the next question is. How do we
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Stephanie Schaffer:No. But yeah. I loved it though. It's fun.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. My feet. I just saw a party, Justin party at a funeral, well, it was about a month ago, and he said he was actually listening to old episodes and he said he still loved it, so I thought that was really great. But one time I was sitting in your guy's seat as the interviewer and I was interviewing Mark Driscoll, and he said something crazy, offensive, something about Calvinists, I didn't hear it, because I was so focused on what the next question was, I was just like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, I was in an elevator in Ireland, in Dublin a week later, and someone confronted me for what he said, and I had no idea what they said.
Tammy Brown:That's a real thing, because sometimes I'm like, okay, Dee's answering, I'm like,
Stephanie Schaffer:I don't know
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:if she
Tammy Brown:ever felt that way, Steph, oh yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, was, I don't want to say exactly what it was, but he was like Santa Claus is real, I like, uh-huh, yeah, totally, know, I was going next question, I, because I didn't normally sit in your seat, and Mark is a very opinionated guy who has lots of thoughts on multiple things. And at the time, you know, he was just such a bigger Christian celebrity than I ever hoped to be. And so he drew a lot of attention to the debrief. And so And,
Tammy Brown:you know, like a lot of very public people, he's polarizing. Like, people absolutely love him, some people don't. And we kinda got mixed in up in that without realizing. We're like, woah. Woah.
Tammy Brown:Woah. Woah. Woah. Like so it was kinda crazy. Okay.
Tammy Brown:Question for you guys. When you think of the last ten years and, Steph, one of the things that's been so sweet for me personally is as soon as I kinda stepped into this spot, you would just text me out of the blue. And we're not running into each other the same way that we once did because you don't work here
Stephanie Schaffer:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Anymore. And be like, I love this episode. I love that. And so just to know that you were part of starting it and you had to do it for a job, but now you you could not listen at all if you didn't want to. And that you still do and you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:still believe in it and
Tammy Brown:you still support it and take the time is like so much. But
Stephanie Schaffer:Well, I love it. And what's cool is I I get it listening to you guys in the debrief is like listening to my big brother and big sister, oh, what do I have to say about this? Like, I was telling you, like, something you said about, oh, what I the things I believed in my twenties, I have to, like, forgive myself for because I've had a lot of experience in life now. Like, I was just talking with one of my old roommates the other day when she was doing my hair. She's like, we thought some crazy things.
Tammy Brown:And I was
Stephanie Schaffer:like, I'm so glad we've grown and matured.
Tammy Brown:And then you're like, oh.
Stephanie Schaffer:Yeah. And so I've just benefited from you guys sticking it out, staying with it, staying faithful, and like giving us the wisdom that you've had to fight for all these years. Like, I know it has not been easy. We get like a little taste of that as we've gotten older. People come and go from church and things.
Stephanie Schaffer:I'm like, oh, I get more of what Matt and Tammy must have been going through. So it's I love getting to listening because it's like, oh, I get to get some wisdom because I don't run into you guys and see you all the time anymore. So
Tammy Brown:I think that in this season was part of the idea of me joining Matt for this season in particular was we are in a particular kind of place in life where we've been here almost thirty years. You know, we're celebrating our thirtieth wedding anniversary in a few weeks. And of like, oh, instead of just diving into the topics, like, what are some of the things we've learned?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And so it is interesting. But as we look back the last ten years, is there any moment or conversation for each of you that stands out? We'll start with you, Matt. Like, is there a moment or a conversation that was had on the debrief that you're you remember that stands out to you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I remember one in particular, what we were covering in 2016.
Tammy Brown:I don't even remember the year.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, no, I remember specifically because we did the Real Conversation on Race, and so it was the three of us, three white people talking about, you know, issues facing black America, and I would say up to that point in my life, I always thought that I could just give opinions freely on anything on any given subject, and I remember Dex pulled us aside and said, Hey, that felt really uncomfortable for me as a person of color to hear three white people talking about the issues that we face. And I probably, honestly, at first, I was probably a little offended by that, but I thought it was a real eye opening experience. And that's how wisdom, that's how you grow in wisdom, when your eyes are kind of open and you go, oh, I didn't see it from that perspective. And I think that was a really growing moment for me because everybody has opinions, but very few people have wisdom. And I thought, and out of that came the real conversation on race.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so a lot of people, you know, if you've attended Sandals Church recently, you never even heard on that, but if you remember, like my niece from Chicago watched, she called me and she was like, This is amazing. I can't believe, Leah, how incredible this is. And we had, I think, I think we had 20,000 people watch on Facebook And so now the numbers, debrief numbers are way bigger than, but for us, that was a huge deal. We had the police chief, we had a Black pastor from my friend now, Terry, I didn't know him then, from San Diego, we had Tim Timberlake. I'm trying to think who else
Tammy Brown:is Well, it just wasn't Bishop Sykes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Superbeam's or down then
Stephanie Schaffer:in that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I didn't know Lacey, that's his name now, but I didn't know Bishop Sykes then, but it, out of the debrief, sprung this great conversation with law enforcement, with me as a white pastor, and then with some of my Black friends who-
Tammy Brown:Who are some of our closest
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:friends and have a perspective that I just didn't have. And so, you know, we may not agree on the outcome of the conversation, but I think that we really agreed on the process, that it's so important for, you know, white people and black people, people of color to sit down and have these conversations. And then, I don't know if you remember this, I remember the politician showing up that we didn't invite, and they all wanted an interview and a platform, and that was the first time I kind of went, ugh, like politics is just, like they didn't want to be a part of the solution at all, they wanted the platform, they wanted to borrow our platform, and I was like, no, this is a conversation about the Bible. And so I think we learned a lot. And if you remember, I think you were already on a plane.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I left the Real Conversation on Race, and I went to LAX and got on a plane to meet you in India.
Stephanie Schaffer:I think so. Yeah. I remember everything was
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:like Yeah.
Stephanie Schaffer:All together. I remember that night that night was special because I remember, like, there was just a very, like, heavy feeling in the room. Yeah. But as people started to talk, as you started to see people come together, like, I think everyone had a moment. Like, it was a it was a holy moment.
Stephanie Schaffer:I remember that. And I don't think that would have happened if we hadn't been brave enough to actually let's get the people in the room. Let's actually have the real conversation. Yeah. I was super grateful
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:for that. And it came from Dex, our creative director at the time, who was not, I mean, he helped produce the podcast, but he was not a guest in the podcast. But it was his willingness to say, hey. And again, it was a little offensive to me. I mean, likes to hear that your perspective because of the color of your skin is off.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, I just, if you don't know white people, we don't like that either. But sometimes it's necessary because we can only see the eyes, you know, everybody has a pair of glasses, a lens that we see the world through, and those are shaped by our skin color, our personality, our sex or gender, our sexuality, our political, you know, and that's so much of what's wrong with America today, is we all, even now when we're all seeing, I'll take something non controversial, like how the Dodgers won the World Series in game six. Like if you are a diehard Toronto Blue Jays fan, he was safe, like, you know, and I'm a Dodger fan, he was clearly, you know, out, right? But we're all, in real time, we're seeing the same event in slo mo, but because of our perspective, we see different things. And so I think we falsely believed that video would provide clarity and direction, and it really doesn't because our perspective is really what shades our version of truth, our version of understanding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so because of this show, I was confronted with my own lenses that I would have told you weren't there. Yeah. And believe that in total ignorance. Like it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't something that I was lying about. Was just ignorant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's my favorite moment. How about you? That's I know that was a good one. Sorry.
Stephanie Schaffer:No. That was really good. One of the moments I remember specifically is we I think we're going through a series. It was on mental health. We had a whole episode that was about anxiety.
Stephanie Schaffer:And and I've struggled with anxiety off and on throughout my life. And I remember going to that episode and thinking like, oh, man, like, do I, like, talk about that I've, like, dealt with this? Like, do I like, it was one of the moments where was like, I guess I could be vulnerable. I guess
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I could open up and
Stephanie Schaffer:because I always struggle, like, I'm just gonna be the host. I'll just ask the questions. I'm not gonna give my perspective. I'm not gonna share about my life. And I remember that being a moment where I'm like, if I'm brave about this and actually share what I've learned about how God is actually kind and is with me in this, like, that could actually help another person.
Stephanie Schaffer:I remember that conversation being super helpful because it was like sitting down with you and Justin and talking through this and realizing this conversation benefits more than just me getting to have this conversation with these people that I care a lot about. I But can also share from my experience so that other people have a chance to come to God in their mental health and their anxiety. So I just remember that moment that remember that conversation specifically as a moment of, oh, I'm not just here to ask the questions. Like, maybe God can actually speak through me and speak through some of my experiences, and maybe actually those were intended to be used for something. So that's why that really stands out to me for sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, appreciate your bravery. We just today, you haven't heard the message for this weekend, but it's really calling people forward for prayer for their issues, and I said that we need three things. One is conviction of sin, because that's what blocks healing power in prayer. And then two, clarity, like what do we need prayer for? And so yours would be anxiety, but the third is confidence.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The ability to see, to come with boldness and say, I'm gonna talk about this, I'm gonna do this, and I think so often in church, right, we kind of pretend that we don't have issues like that, and like everything's good and wrapped up, but it's really through like your brokenness of anxiety, my brokenness with that, and I remember that conversation. And what's funny is for me, you seem so confident because I remember that episode. But for you, right, like, it's it's the duck. So it can always be if you look so calm and you're preaching, on the surface, I look smooth underneath it. Like, I'm drowning.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm drowning. I'm drowning. I'm drowning.
Stephanie Schaffer:That's me every day in
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:my life.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, this makes me want to ask you guys then. Having hosted so many get contributed in whatever way, all the ways that you've contributed, did the way that you've done those conversations affect how you handle and navigate conversations in real life?
Tammy Brown:Because one of the things we find ourselves now doing is our real life conversations, we actually try to direct them to here because Yeah. One of the things that will happen either to me when I'm doing the women's podcast or to Matt is you'll have 10 different people ask the same question in the lobby or in an email or in a direct message. And so answering it here gets to benefit all of those people and then some instead of having, you know, the same repetitive conversation, if you will. But I'm wondering for you guys, has has having hosted this and just the topics and the conversations, has it shifted your actual conversations you have in your everyday life?
Stephanie Schaffer:It may have. I know something I'm have been working on and trying to grow and and going back to the Enneagram days. Like, I'm nine on the Enneagram. I'm a person who tends to avoid conflict. I just liked everything to stay stable, means I don't typically speak up in conversations.
Stephanie Schaffer:I don't typically say things. So I think some of the experience here for sure has helped me be brave. Like, even going in conflict with friends recently where I'm like, I guess I could just ask the question, are we okay? Yeah. Hey, I've noticed this thing.
Stephanie Schaffer:We're normally well, not normally, I guess now I've grown a little bit. Previously, I would have said like, no. I'm not just not gonna ask. Not gonna bother. Like, I'm probably just thinking things.
Stephanie Schaffer:Like, no. What if I just ask the question? Mhmm. Like, I'm a grown up. They're a grown up.
Stephanie Schaffer:We could probably just talk about this. Mhmm. So I think even having those conversations here and being willing to speak up, because I'm very much normally, like, behind the scenes. Yeah. I'll just stay back.
Stephanie Schaffer:You do your thing. You're the person. So I think some of the experience here has helped me just maybe I could speak up. Maybe I could ask the question. Maybe I could share my experience here.
Stephanie Schaffer:So I think this probably has contributed to that for sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Well, I don't wanna answer that question. I just wanna say how proud I am of you. You know, I think you you took a job here as I don't remember. What was your original job where you worked for me?
Stephanie Schaffer:Ministry assistant.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, so it was assistant. Yeah. I mean I mean, that's a behind the scenes job.
Stephanie Schaffer:I was just running this
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the next thing you know, you're like Donald Trump's press secretary.
Stephanie Schaffer:Well, that's not what
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you really meant, you know? Know, because you know I'm a loud opinionated person. And so you got thrust out of your comfort zone. And what I would say to everybody that that's growth. Growth is always happens when you're where you don't wanna be.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and we have to figure it out. And so I'm super proud of that.
Stephanie Schaffer:Well, remember you specifically challenging me in that even in meetings we would have on staff. And I remember a specific phrase you said to me, censored version was, no one's ever gonna think you're a B. Yeah. Why don't you just speak up Yeah. And say something?
Stephanie Schaffer:And that's like carried with me through like, okay, guess like and like, I hope I'm I'm sure Tyler would maybe disagree that sometimes I'm not the nicest when I Yeah. Bring things up. But yeah, like maybe I should just say something, maybe I could speak up, maybe my opinion and thoughts actually do matter.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's helpful. Yeah. So I love that about the Enneagram. You know, nines often speak the least when they're the ones we need to hear from the most. So that's important.
Tammy Brown:How influenced has you or has it influenced you in your actual conversation?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, absolutely, and I would say Stephanie played a huge part in that, as all of the co hosts have. You know, Donna, you know, as a black woman, you know, I can't tell you how many times we'd be on the phone the night before talking about, okay, I need to know what your perspective is on this before we have this conversation in public. And not that I want to mute her voice in any way, I just wanna be prepared because I don't know how she feels about this, you know?
Tammy Brown:Well, and that goes back to you saying like becoming aware of like Yeah. I might not see the whole picture. I want a different perspective. I want to see my blind spots. So that even in that sounds like reflection from early days until having our last thoughts.
Tammy Brown:So I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:would say with all of the women who've been on the show with me, you know, Stephanie, I'm thinking Madison, you, Donna,
Tammy Brown:I don't
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know who I'm forgetting. I think Melody's been on here a couple of times. But it's, you know, gender, you know, in our current world, there's this idea that gender's not real, it's very real. And it literally, we see things, feel things, and experience things very, very differently. And it's not that one is true and the other is false, it's just that they're both real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think that what the show has shaped me is, you know, Stephanie is maybe not the most verbal, but her face cannot lie. That's true. Not a stuff. Know, instantly if she's like, you're full of you know what. And she's never gonna say it.
Stephanie Schaffer:Hey, come on, say the
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:skin doesn't
Tammy Brown:lie, you'll start blotching.
Stephanie Schaffer:I'm a nightmare.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But in real time, and I think that, you know, the beauty of gender is learning to listen and learn from each other, and I think it makes us better. So I would say Stephanie helped me because I can hurt your feelings, you know, and so it was a, you know, you were in the weirdest role because you were my assistant and my cohost, you know, Tammy's not my assistant, she's my wife. Donna's not my assistant, she was just, that was her job, the cohost.
Tammy Brown:But,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you know, in real time, you know, learning to talk with women, I think about like, did the, during COVID, we did the Christmas Eve message, and I made Madison so upset, my So we're getting ready to do like the Lord's Supper Christmas special, remember we have All the Lights production there, and I made Madison, like, she's so upset she had to get up and go to the bathroom and cry because of how I said something. And so again, learning to be like, okay, the most direct way to communicate is not always the best way. And so, you know, I don't agree with everything that Mark Driscoll said, but one of his most famous lines is, women are champagne glasses and men are thermoses. You can kick a thermos, don't kick a champagne glass. And sometimes I think that's the disconnect between men, as we act like we're talking to a thermos and we need, and it's not that you guys are delicate or fragile, it's just that we have to communicate differently.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, this morning Tammy said, You kind of hurt my feelings with what you said. And I was actually really thankful for that because it's not at all what I meant, but the way that it came out was wrong. And so I think on the debrief, it helped me in real time because we can't edit and go back. I mean, now they make me edit everything. Have decide.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But back in the days, dude, sandals was just rocking and real.
Stephanie Schaffer:You put it out the same afternoon.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, dude. I was a riverboat gambler. Let's go. Let's go. But that's why our churches was so smart.
Tammy Brown:Well, that actually gives a good segue into the next question, which is why do you think honest, real, uncomfortable conversation in Christian spaces still feel so risky? Because I think that we would think, like, it's such a big deal. Like, people are people can have any opinion on anything in any space right now. And yet, I think this question brought up a good thing is like, it does feel super risky in these times, but also so, so necessary. So why do you think it feels risky and uncomfortable to still have really real conversations?
Tammy Brown:And then the counterpart to that is that real conversations are so necessary.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I would say when Stephanie and I and Justin started, we were entering into a space of the unknown. There was nothing like the debrief anywhere. Podcasts were like Bible Answer Man.
Tammy Brown:A lot of people started doing blogs then.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But the debrief was real and raw and controversial, we had a good time, but we started talking about things. You know, we talked openly with, you know, homosexual church members on staff that were trying to follow Jesus in the midst of their sexuality. You know, and I've actually had some of those people come back and say, hey, would you edit that from, and no, it was a real conversation, you know, your views may have changed, but the conversation was real, and so we loved it there. And so I think we were leading the way, you know, how do you talk about your sexuality as you follow Jesus as a conservative Christian? How do you talk about race?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How do you talk about divorce, marriage, porn? I mean, we didn't censor anything if people asked the question. You know, we weren't gross. I mean, sometimes party was gross, but-
Tammy Brown:Sometimes you were gross. Yeah. Was never gross.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Definitely even believe But it was I think that it was way harder then. I think that, you know, during 2020 to 2022, it became impossible to have real conversations. I mean, our country went through, I call it the death of comedy. Comedy died for two years. Nobody could be funny about anything, I mean, canceled if you looked the wrong way, now I think it's come back, it's back.
Stephanie Schaffer:Well, some of that's probably led to the divide that's so huge now,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I so, you know, I'm a big fan of, oh, what's his name, the Canadian author, professor?
Stephanie Schaffer:Oh, Jordan Peterson.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jordan Peterson, gosh. I'm a big fan of his, and one of the things that he does is he thinks so well, I'm a great talker, he's a great thinker, and he says, you know, every king always had a jester. So you think of the jester, right? And the reason for the jester is so that the people know that if the jester can make fun of the king, he's a real person. The second the jester dies, comedy, everyone's unsafe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so in 2020 to 2022, when comedy died, we were all unsafe. It was not a safe And place to people say, well, that's offensive, that's rude, that's wrong. It's supposed to be. What it does is it says, okay, we're all okay, but as soon as man, you know, bullets start flying and people start getting shot, that's when the jester dies, the culture's in trouble. And so what I would say is I think that the debrief led the way, and then I got scared in 2020, and I think we're trying to, I mean, I'm older now, I'm less offensive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think I'm a little wiser. You know, it's a softer, gentler, kinder Matt Brown, but I think that we're still trying to engage in real conversations, and what makes Sandals, I think, authentic is, and there's a lot of podcasts now that, you know, that are super real, and even more in-depth than what we're trying to do here, But I think that we're still trying to take real issues, but bend people back to a very real Jesus and scripture that contains truth. So we've gotten real, but we haven't lost our foundation. I think that's, so what do you
Celeste Contreras:think?
Stephanie Schaffer:Yeah. Well, I think it yeah. I think it still feels risky because everyone comes to the table with a certain assumption of how it's gonna be. And I think the podcast has helped. One for me seeing the questions that would come in, I'm like, my gosh.
Stephanie Schaffer:People are thinking about this too, or people are asking this question, or I'm so glad that person was brave enough to ask that. I'm so glad we have a platform now where you have a chance to talk through the answer, process it, have a real person there with you. Because I think that doesn't exist a lot. And I think it was bringing the real conversations between two actual people, not not a comment section
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Stephanie Schaffer:Not a tweet. And I think that's why it's necessary. It's because once you sit down with someone, most of the time you can kind of reason your way through something. Like I have a friend who chose to leave the church, entered into a relationship that basically is what drew her away from the church. I'm or I was having really honest conversations about it and we completely disagreed on the plan of action.
Stephanie Schaffer:But when we sit down and actually talk to each other, we were kind, we were respectful, we understood each other, we both understood where the other one was coming from. Where I think if that had just been me standing up, making my post about what I think she should do, we would have never had the conversation. She would have gotten mad stood on her heels. So I think Conversations like this where someone's brave enough to ask the question, and then there's space for it to actually have a thought out answer knowing that there's a real person on the other side of the question, I think helps both sides kinda come down and meet somewhere in the middle. Like, you're still probably not gonna agree a lot of the time, but at least you're having the honest conversation about what's going on.
Tammy Brown:Well, the thing I think that makes this a valuable contribution in what can just be a lot of content and noise up there because or out there is that there's there's a bazillion podcasts now. There's a bazillion opinions. Is one of the things I think that stood true is having real conversations about how do I make this concept of the bible and what God wants his way, his plan, learning from the stories in the bible connect with the real life I'm living here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And that's I think a space that these conversations have is like, hey, I'm really going through this situation. Yeah. And I want to do it God's way. Mhmm. I'm so tangled up.
Tammy Brown:I don't even know how to undo this. My feelings tell me this. My heart tells me this. My wounding tells me this. But the Bible's, how do I even bridge that gap?
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. And so what I've experienced with these conversations over the years, like, helps bridge the gap. Mhmm. Because there's so many times, Matt, you'll give a thought or an opinion or something you're like, but it doesn't matter because here's what God's says. Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:Because and that's part of that dying to ourselves in our own discipleship journey. And so I I think this has been such a resource to people. The other thing that I think these why this is risky and necessary is it's actually really risky for a lot of the people that are asking the questions Mhmm. Because people want to talk about some things and they are scared to death. Like, I think you invented Annie Moss.
Stephanie Schaffer:Probably. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:They don't feel like they could be real or, like, utter
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Real things going on, things they're ashamed of, embarrassed of, throat and butt. They're questioning. And this has given them an opportunity to go, I wanna do it God's way, but I feel this whole other way or I'm embarrassed of this situation. I but I I have to get it out.
Tammy Brown:And when people keep this kind of stuff to themselves, I feel like that's where the enemy has the most breeding ground.
Stephanie Schaffer:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:But when they can get it into the light, which this has been an avenue for that, for them to say, I can't trust anyone, but I'm gonna put it out there.
Stephanie Schaffer:Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And they're listening, and they're getting some biblical advice of how do I, this broken mess, follow Jesus Mhmm. Yeah. Which I think is just such a good space. Yeah. Okay.
Tammy Brown:Next question. What is a topic this I don't I'm like, this question? This is crazy, but here we go. What is a topic the church avoided ten years ago that it can't afford to avoid right now? So when you think of the topics that the debrief was covering ten years ago, that you're like, but now it's like that we actually have to talk about those kind of things in this space.
Tammy Brown:Can you think of a topic?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, I think that the boy crisis, the devaluing and attacking of all things masculinity, the feminization of our culture, I think that, you know, your mothers, right, grew up in a male dominated world where they had very little voice, very little choices, and we needed to give women a lot of opportunity. I think the mistake that feminism has made is in the book The Boy Crisis, I think he says, I forget his name, if you guys can put that in the show notes, he says whenever one sex wins, both genders lose. And so we should have lifted women up, but we've torn men down. And so, you know, I think about who is the first, well, I don't know if she was the first female Supreme Court justice, but she just died.
Stephanie Schaffer:Oh, Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was not the first, think she was the second woman, but when she was asked how many women she wanted on the Supreme Court, she said nine. And that really made me sad because I think she's a very brilliant woman, and obviously I disagree with some of her positions on legal things, but, you know, we fought so hard as a country to give women a right to be on the Supreme Court. The answer is not to then kick off all men. And again, we need those nuanced perspectives, and we need both men and women to be interpreting law and help us deciding law in our country.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I just
Tammy Brown:think- I'm advocating for all people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If it's only women, you're not advocating for all people. Just think about like the slogans during 2022, believe women, you know, and I certainly have compassion for victims of sexual abuse and crime and all of that stuff, but that statement means to not believe men. That's the problem. And so, you know, what we, and those are difficult situations, what he said, she said, that's tough stuff, and you know, we deal with that at the church all the time because we weren't there, we don't have a camera, we can't go back in time, and heard me, you both heard me say this, tears do not always communicate truth. You know, liars can be criers, write that down.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think that we need to find a way to build up men. We don't need to go back to the 1950s where you two just, you know, are cute and stay at home and have dinner ready. I don't think that that's where we need to go to, but we need to figure out a way where we treat women with love and respect, and we just accept their gifting. Like, it's just like, you know, when we started having Melody preach here at Sandals, you know, so many people left, and I made the decision, you know, I believe in male headship, male eldership, I don't think that you can get away from that, but clearly in the New Testament, women speak, women prophesy, women are a part of the church, and I have not seen that in my experience, but I came to the conclusion that preaching is a gift is a gift. And so why would you silence someone who has that gifting?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think that that's really important, but we also need to be careful, you know, as we have women in the pulpit as to how they speak to men, because they already feel devalued, emasculated, yelled at, demeaned in our culture. And so what I think we need to do is we need to, how do we help men, how do we help boys become men, and how do we help men become like Christ? Those are really the three things that I think, you know, we're really struggling with because we have a lot of women that have married broken men. And, you know, one of my favorite fights, this a weird thing, but I always talk about my favorite fights with Tammy.
Tammy Brown:Oh, okay. The highlight reel?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, my highlight reel. We have like a highlight reel. But I remember yelling out loud, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, you act like there's this script, right? How to be a husband, and I have it in my hand, and I'm just not doing it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But what I wanted her to know is this thing, it's not there. Like I'm building the plane as I fly it. I think that, you know, what I would like a lot of women and wives to know is how do we lead as men when we don't know what to do? That is a very scary place to be. And a lot of guys run from it or act like they know what they're doing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the reality is, if we look at Genesis three, God created the woman, and it's so interesting, you know, the text says, I think in English, from his rib, but it's a really difficult Hebrew word to translate it. You could translate it that he cut him in half, right? So then when you look at what is marriage, the two shall become one. So God cut Adam in half and made Eve, and that marriage is those two halves making the one that he meant. And so if you're single, that doesn't mean you need to be married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What it means is part of a woman's role is to help us lead and help us figure out what that looks like. And so what I would say to women is to stop belittling men and help them lead. That's, sometimes I think you guys are just better and you have more answers, and that's difficult, but-
Tammy Brown:Wait, what?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No, it's true.
Stephanie Schaffer:I mean, it'd be safe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's what I was So that was a long story short. I think that we need to focus on helping boys become men and helping men become like Christ.
Tammy Brown:That's good. What would you say, Steph? Is there a topic that the church had avoided for years that just can't?
Stephanie Schaffer:Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a topic the church has avoided. And trust me here, like I think in the political realm, I think the church for a long time just assumed we all thought the same thing and believed the same thing and we were all gonna vote the same way. And now those assumptions carried on, but there's a lot of people in church going, well, wait, I don't necessarily agree with this part, but I agree with this part. So I think for the church now to be the path down the middle of, hey, yeah, what this side is doing is wrong.
Stephanie Schaffer:We don't agree
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:with that.
Stephanie Schaffer:But guess what? What this side is doing is wrong. We don't agree with that either. Here are the things that we think are right and we think are good and that we value. Because I don't think it was a conversation we avoided necessarily.
Stephanie Schaffer:I think we we've had plenty of series on politics and voting and you've always done such a great job of being right down the middle. You don't tell people how you vote. You don't tell people what to do. But I think we for so long the church has thought, oh, everyone is gonna think this way, do this thing, go this way. And it's just gotten so much more complicated now.
Stephanie Schaffer:And so I think spaces like this are so necessary to have the conversations of, yeah, absolutely. I actually agree with the other side on this. Or I actually
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:agree with
Stephanie Schaffer:the side that most people wouldn't say are Christians on this part. They actually have that right. How can we as Christians then move forward in a culture that's so polarized, but we have something that everyone else doesn't that can help bring us together? Like, think that's something we just can't afford to avoid right now because the assumption has been for so long, it's this one way. And so there's a lot of Christians who are going, well, I guess I don't agree with the church because the church must agree with this, which it doesn't necessarily.
Stephanie Schaffer:But there's so much assumption going on. So I think for us to have real conversations about how do you engage in specific issues and in specific topics and specific relationships, which is where it mostly boils down to. I think that's something we can't avoid anymore. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. So good. That's so good. Well, you guys, thank you both for coming back. Steph, thank you for coming back today and just kind of reminiscing about ten years of this podcast.
Tammy Brown:Matt, I'm super proud of you because
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you.
Tammy Brown:You know, you speaking of being brave, you get up here every week, and you answer really hard questions. And a behind the scenes thing that most people don't know is like, technically, Monday is supposed to be Matt's day off, Saturday and Monday or Friday and Monday. Sorry. We have Saturday services now. But what you don't know is on Mondays, Matt will spend three to five hours researching, doing his homework, reading the bible, reading history, like biblical history because I and for me, what that speaks to is just how much you value giving a wise answer here Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And leading people well that you don't take it for granted. You don't. I mean, sometimes, like, people could watch and think, like, you just kinda show up and wing it. That is not Matt at all. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:That's like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:my nightmare.
Tammy Brown:How he totally comes across. And I just see that you do it on your on your day off, if you will. And you've sometimes come to the table where on the other side of that, you're like, I actually feel different feel differently now or think differently now. And, you know, I remember when we were dating way back in the day, there was a radio show on K Rock, if any locals listened to K Rock, and they had love lines with doctor Drew.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I loved it.
Tammy Brown:And you loved it because you're like, people are calling in asking the scariest, most vulnerable questions and find and like, that you couldn't go to your parents for. You couldn't go to wherever. And you always said, I have a dream of doing that for Christians one day where they can just ask any real question and get really good advice. And so here you are ten years later, and I feel like you've done that. Like, you've created a safe place for people to be real Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:And ask embarrassing questions, hard questions, confess brokenness, and really give them that road map to, like, here's where you are, but here's where you can go see Jesus. So I'm really proud of you. And you do risk. You risk people, and it's happened. I people getting mad, people leaving our church, people saying I'm not gonna give to Sandals Church anymore.
Tammy Brown:And yet you don't compromise
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Based on people saying they're gonna take their money and go or take their person and go. And so I just I'm really proud of you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Thank you.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. And thanks, Steph, too, just for believing in us, loving us, loving Sandals Church. Yeah. And we are we are so, so proud of you. So I'm so grateful.
Tammy Brown:So Finally, to all of you guys, some of you who've been along for the ride all ten years. Yeah. Thank you so much for trusting us slash Matt, our team, our church. Thank you for trusting our voice in your life, trusting us with very vulnerable topics, sending in your questions. I mean, there is no show
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Without your
Stephanie Schaffer:questions.
Tammy Brown:No questions. So thank you so much for that. The debrief couldn't be here without you, but it also could not be here without you guys. And so on that note, if this episode or any of the episodes that we've had and it would be kind of fun. Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:I don't even know how that works, but to scroll back and and look for some topics that you know might be a benefit to someone that you love in your life that's struggling with a similar thing, and it could help them find their way a little bit closer to Jesus for his heart for them, love for them. So you can do that by liking this, subscribing. I think most importantly, it with your friends. Mhmm. And just continue to support the show so that we can continue to create a place, a safe place for people to be real.
Tammy Brown:So until next time and hopefully another ten years. Yeah. We'll see you guys later.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'll be in my walker. Thank you
Celeste Contreras:for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.