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From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
00:02:04:16 - 00:02:06:13
Frank Cappello
Wow.
00:02:06:15 - 00:02:41:10
David Sirota
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Lever Time, the flagship podcast from The Lever, an independent investigative news outlet. I'm your host, David Sirota. On today's show, we are going to be talking about unidentified flying objects or as we're now supposed to call them, uaps unidentified aerial phenomena. Now, listen, I know some of you are already rolling your eyes, but this is a serious topic about government secrecy and national security.
00:02:41:12 - 00:03:10:17
David Sirota
With some big breaking news. Earlier this month, a blockbuster report was published detailing how a U.S. intelligence official turned whistleblower claims that the U.S. government has retrieved an intact craft of non-human origin, a.k.a. an alien spaceship. You heard that right. This report is the most credible to date. That raises new questions about whether or not we are alone in the universe.
00:03:10:22 - 00:03:36:13
David Sirota
And it follows revelations in The New York Times about a secret government program looking at these unexplained phenomena. For today's big interview, I'm going to be speaking with one of those investigative journalists who published that New York Times story and who wrote this most recent story about the new whistleblower. For our paid subscribers, we are always also dropping exclusive bonus episodes into our Lever Premium podcast feed.
00:03:36:15 - 00:04:04:17
David Sirota
This past Monday, we publish my interview with the levers Rebecca Burns and Julia Roc about their latest reporting on climate change legislation and policy, including their stories on the climate divestment movement and the fossil fuel lobby's crusade against emissions disclosure laws. All as large swaths of the country have been choking on wildfire smoke. Again, you can listen to that in-depth discussion in the Premium podcast feed.
00:04:04:21 - 00:04:27:22
David Sirota
If you want to access our premium content. Head over to Lever News.com and click the subscribe button in the top right to become a supporting subscriber. That'll give you access to the lever Premium podcast feed, exclusive live events, and all of the in-depth reporting and investigative journalism that we do here at the Lever. The only way independent media grows and thrives is because of passionate supporters and by word of mouth.
00:04:28:00 - 00:04:38:00
David Sirota
So we need all the help we can get to combat the inane bullshit that is corporate media. So go subscribe it directly funds the work that we do. I'm here today with Lever Times producer. Producer Frank.
00:04:38:01 - 00:04:59:15
Frank Cappello
Frank. What's up, David? Back from vacation. Had a really nice time abroad. Across the pond, as they say. Spent some time in Barcelona and Copenhagen. And I got to say Copenhagen. It's a real eye opener to what a city and a society can look like when its government gives a shit.
00:04:59:18 - 00:05:10:04
David Sirota
About its people. Yeah, I mean, you said on our editorial call earlier today that they seem to have figure some things out that we haven't figured out here in the good old United States, huh?
00:05:10:04 - 00:05:32:01
Frank Cappello
Yeah. At the very least, they have learned how to get their trains to run on time. I live in New York City, and. Don't get me wrong, I love public transportation, and I. And I love the public transpo in New York. But it is, as I'm sure maybe our listeners have heard, has fallen under disrepair in the last few years and has suffered from massive disinvestment.
00:05:32:03 - 00:05:41:08
Frank Cappello
So, yeah, so being in in a city like Copenhagen, where the trains were literally showing up every three or 4 minutes was just like I was astounded to see it.
00:05:41:11 - 00:06:02:00
David Sirota
Anybody who has a chance to. The privilege of visiting another place that sees other societies how they work can. I found in the times that I've been able to do that I've been blown away by how well things can work and how well they do work in some countries and should worth saying. It's not to say that every any country is perfect.
00:06:02:00 - 00:06:23:13
David Sirota
Every country has got its got its problems. But Scandinavia, man, I mean, I've actually never been to Scandinavia, but even Western Europe, I mean the the investment in infrastructure, public transit and the like. I mean, it's just it's like it's like a different world. It truly is a different world. And it's a reminder that if we actually invested in those kinds of things in the way they do, life could be better.
00:06:23:13 - 00:06:31:09
David Sirota
Like, it's it's it's a it's a reminder that things don't have to be as shitty as they often are in in American cities.
00:06:31:11 - 00:06:35:06
Frank Cappello
Yeah. The very least, you won't be as late to your appointments, you know?
00:06:35:08 - 00:07:01:19
David Sirota
Exactly. Exactly. Okay, before we get to our big interview today, one thing we do need to talk about, the wild fire smoke that blanketed New York City and much of the Eastern seaboard last week. We talk a lot about this in our Lever Premium podcast this week. The bonus episode, we go deep on it, some really scary climate news, but also some some good climate policy news.
00:07:01:21 - 00:07:23:04
David Sirota
But let's just take one minute a here on lever time to just go over one big thing that we reported this week that I want everybody to to really think about. Most of you have probably seen those images from last week in New York City, which is covered in that orange haze due to smoke being blown from massive wildfires in Canada.
00:07:23:06 - 00:07:51:11
David Sirota
The images were truly shocking to those who'd never seen such things before. I live out here in Denver. I've experienced that before. It's it's awful. It had everyone last week comparing New York to scenes from movies like Blade Runner and Dune sci fi dystopia flicks. Well, the liver just published a really important story this week about how the oil lobby pushed for a pollution loophole for wildfire smoke.
00:07:51:12 - 00:08:25:18
David Sirota
Now, again, we talk more deeply about this in our bonus episode for our paying subscribers. But just to summarize the story that we reported details how a loophole in federal environmental law allows states to disregard pollution from so-called exceptional events like wildfires. This exemption, which of course, again is supported by the fossil fuel industry, means that hazardous air quality caused by wildfires does not contribute to the way states have to comply with the Clean Air Act.
00:08:25:19 - 00:08:55:17
David Sirota
So what it means is when cities are blanketed in wildfire smoke. And let's remember, wildfire smoke caused by climate intensified wildfires, the climate crisis created by the fossil fuel industry. So what this means is that when cities are blanketed in that smoke, cities and states don't have to count that against the pollution caps that they use to decide how to regulate all other kinds of pollution.
00:08:55:18 - 00:09:28:04
David Sirota
So if this loophole wasn't there, cities would be blanketed in wildfire smoke. The regulators would say, okay, look, the human lungs can only tolerate over a course of a year this much pollution. Therefore, because of this wildfire smoke, we have to crack down on pollution from power plants and the like. But because of this loophole, the wildfire smoke that is affecting your lungs, if you live on the eastern seaboard, that doesn't count in the overall way that regulators have to protect your lungs.
00:09:28:06 - 00:09:55:14
David Sirota
Point being, regulators now don't have to and are effectively blocked from forcing the fossil fuel industry, the energy industry, to reduce its emissions to offset the poison, the pollution from the wildfire smoke. Now, I know one of the arguments is, well, you know, look, the fossil fuel industry doesn't didn't directly light the fires. It's out of the fossil fuel industry's control.
00:09:55:16 - 00:10:17:07
David Sirota
I mean, I don't fully buy that argument because the fossil fuel industry is creating the climate crisis that is intensifying these wildfires. But but even if you go with that argument, you know, the fossil fuel industry, it's not they didn't light the fires, so they shouldn't be punished for wildfire smoke. That's the wrong frame. The correct frame is the regulators.
00:10:17:10 - 00:10:56:14
David Sirota
Their job is to protect your lungs. Right. And there's only a certain amount of pollution that your lungs can take according to science, before bad shit happens to you. Right? Emphysema, asthma, lung cancer and the like. So the way to look at this is, okay, listen, no matter what happens in the world, if the total pollution reaches the threshold where it's beyond what is acceptable to the human body, whether it's wildfire smoke or anything else, then we have to lower the pollution elsewhere so that your lungs are not exposed to dangerous levels of pollution.
00:10:56:16 - 00:11:15:07
David Sirota
That's the way, in my view, we should be looking at this. Instead. The fossil fuel industry backed a loophole in federal law to say, Hey, listen, if the human lungs in New York City or anywhere else gets get polluted by wildfire smoke, we don't have to reduce our emissions at all. We can just keep poisoning communities at the regular rate that we're poisoning them.
00:11:15:07 - 00:11:39:11
David Sirota
We don't know that the poison to people's lungs should not be offset through reducing fossil fuel pollution, which, to my mind is bullshit. It's lucrative bullshit for the fossil fuel industry, which gets to keep poisoning communities and it's dangerous. Our story details that loophole. I really encourage you to go read it. Outlet for news. I mean, Frank, I guess you were away.
00:11:39:13 - 00:11:43:08
David Sirota
But I mean, what do you make of this kind of loophole?
00:11:43:10 - 00:12:08:00
Frank Cappello
I mean. Well, first of all, I think Rebecca did a really fantastic job reporting the story out and breaking it down. I agree with you. It sounds like a lot of bullshit. And if we're not going to regulate the fossil fuel industry on the front end, then like you're saying, someone has to do it on the back end by making sure that this pollution is counted towards the way that we I don't know, quantify pollution on the whole.
00:12:08:00 - 00:12:20:04
Frank Cappello
That's, that's fucking insane to me that it's like, oh, like something that comes out of a smokestack will count that. But like literal orange smoke blanketing all of New York City that would that would that doesn't count, right?
00:12:20:05 - 00:12:40:19
David Sirota
I mean, the thing is, you know what counts it. I mean, your lungs count it, right? I mean, you're literally the cells in your body. Count it whether or not the regulators are counting it, whether or not the fossil fuel industry has a loophole. And that's that's actually the point, is that there's this notion that there's like this shell game, oh, well, this pollution counts and this doesn't get I mean, your lungs don't care, right?
00:12:40:19 - 00:13:03:09
David Sirota
Like asthma doesn't care, emphysema doesn't care, lung cancer doesn't care. It's all pollution. And regulators need to be looking at it all as pollution that needs to be reduced as opposed to one kind of pollution doesn't count. Therefore, another kind of pollution can continue polluting at its same level. I mean, that that is the kind of shit that is insane.
00:13:03:10 - 00:13:27:15
David Sirota
It kind of reminds me of of I always go back to the when Ronald Reagan's administration tried to count ketchup as a vegetable, right? It's like these games of the way that. Yes, Ronald Reagan, that was the whole thing. Ronald Reagan, they wanted to count ketchup as a vegetable for the purposes of nutrition guidelines. It's like, dude, it doesn't matter how like ketchup is not a vegetable.
00:13:27:15 - 00:13:42:05
David Sirota
And your body at the cellular level knows that ketchup is not a vegetable, no matter how you decide to count it or not. So it's like all these gains with the way the government council I mean, at one point they were trying to weigh what they were trying to say, like pizza is a nutritious meal, like a nutritious food.
00:13:42:05 - 00:14:01:17
David Sirota
Oh, you know, wildfire pollution doesn't count. Ketchup is a better it's all the same nonsense to benefit an industry and to pretend like reality doesn't exist. And the reality is, as Rebecca Burns details in the story of revenues, the reality is, is that your lungs don't care about what kinds of pollution are contributing to what is polluting your lungs.
00:14:01:22 - 00:14:20:19
David Sirota
And regulators should honor that science, not create a loophole for wildfire smoke that benefits the fossil fuel industry that is creating the climate crisis, that is making the wildfires worse. And the fact that that's even that's a controversial take is well, it's an illustration of how insane everything's gotten because there shouldn't be that loophole.
00:14:20:19 - 00:14:23:21
Frank Cappello
Yeah, it's like an aura. Burros of insane bullshit. Yes.
00:14:23:21 - 00:14:47:23
David Sirota
Yes, exactly. Okay, let's stop there because we got to get to our big interview with investigative journalist Leslie Kane about her latest blockbuster report on UFOs. Don't roll your eyes. This is a big revelation. It is an important one. It's about government secrecy. It's about national security. And it's about actually some of the deepest questions that we can ask as humans.
00:14:48:01 - 00:15:07:12
David Sirota
Are we alone in the universe? That's coming up next. But first, let's take a quick break. Welcome back to Leisure Time. There's one thing you should know about me. I am a huge nerd and I'm proud of that. And because I'm a nerd, I've been obsessed with UFOs since I was a little kid. Just like Fox Mulder from The X-Files.
00:15:07:12 - 00:15:46:04
David Sirota
I've always believed that the truth is out there. But what That truth is that that's the tough part. Over the last few decades, our understanding of unidentified flying objects has evolved, shattering old perceptions and opening up a universe of new questions. From the Pentagon's release of classified UFO footage to encounters with military pilots to unexplained aerial phenomena captured on camera, the evidence is mounting about another truth, and it now demands our attention.
00:15:46:04 - 00:16:06:19
David Sirota
And to be clear, I don't know what this truth is. I just know that there are a lot of unanswered questions and it does seem like some people have a sense of what the answers are. What is the truth? Is there other life out there? Are there military technologies that we don't understand? Are we not being told the whole story?
00:16:06:23 - 00:16:25:20
David Sirota
I think the answer to that latter question are we not being told the whole story? I think the answer is yes, that there is a story to be told. And I'm not necessarily saying that means we know of Little green Men or E.T. I'm just saying we're not being told the whole story. And it's a really important story.
00:16:25:20 - 00:16:59:06
David Sirota
That's why today I'm going to be speaking with investigative journalist Leslie Kean, who has dedicated her career to trying to uncover the truth about UFOs and what the government may know about UFOs. Her in-depth investigations and compelling reporting have made her a leading voice in the study of unidentified aerial phenomena. Leslie Kane was one of the reporters who broke that huge story in The New York Times in 2017 about a secret government program studying UFOs.
00:16:59:08 - 00:17:30:09
David Sirota
The story also exposed aircraft videos of some unexplained phenomena. Her new story, which was published earlier this month by the debrief, details how a U.S. intelligence official turned whistleblower claims that the U.S. government has retrieved an intact craft of non-human origin. In other words, a spaceship coupled with Leslie's New York Times blockbuster in 2017. This new story once again raises those old questions Are we alone in the universe?
00:17:30:11 - 00:17:36:18
David Sirota
And if we aren't, why would the government hide that? Hey, Leslie, how are you doing?
00:17:36:20 - 00:17:39:10
Leslie Kean
Hey, David. I'm doing well. It's so great to be with you.
00:17:39:10 - 00:18:09:07
David Sirota
Thank you so much for taking time with us today. So? So it's safe to say that you're one of the world's foremost experts on what we call UFOs, now known as uaps unidentified aerial phenomena. I guess the first question here, before we get to the to the big news, the most recent news, tell us what initially sparked your interest in exploring this particular subject and how your perspective on it may have evolved over time?
00:18:09:11 - 00:18:26:08
Leslie Kean
Yeah, I mean, those are really those are two, two different, really different questions. But I also want to just comment what you said. I'm one of the world's experts. I mean, I don't think of myself like that because I'm definitely a reporter. Yes. So I have a lot of knowledge. But, you know, I'm a I'm a reporter who likes to communicate what I know to other people.
00:18:26:08 - 00:18:45:04
Leslie Kean
So I don't know. I just feel a little uncomfortable being called that. But anyway, the way I got started in this was in back in 1999. I was working at a public radio station in Berkeley, California, as a reporter and an on air host and a producer. And and I got this a report in the mail from a colleague in French.
00:18:45:06 - 00:19:15:08
Leslie Kean
You know, I'll just give you the brief thumbnail of that. It was a 90 page study made by officials in France, such as admirals and generals and police chiefs and scientists and a very, very impressive group of people. They laid out a bunch of cases that they studied, and then they came to the conclusion that the extraterrestrial hypothesis, which is the exact language they used, was the most valid rush and rational explanation for the cases that they studied, because these were official cases with a lot of data and they were able to rule out conventional explanations.
00:19:15:08 - 00:19:33:17
Leslie Kean
So they were sort of stuck with this. And given the caliber of the people that had written this this report and given that conclusion that they drew, you know, as a reporter, I was absolutely stunned by it and thought it was major news and that. So then I wrote a story for The Boston Globe in May of 2000 based on that report.
00:19:33:17 - 00:19:43:07
Leslie Kean
And I could not look back after that. I was completely captivated by this topic, and that's how it got started. I've been working on it for 23 years now.
00:19:43:09 - 00:20:15:18
David Sirota
Let's talk about what you have called the power of the stigma surrounding questions about UFOs. There was something known as the Condon Report, which helped create what you have called the stigma that killed something called Project Blue Book. That was the government's accumulation of data about UFOs and effectively drove the research that you cover, drove it kind of underground after about 1970.
00:20:15:20 - 00:20:25:04
David Sirota
Tell us a little bit about the Condon Report and more generally about about what you call the stigma and why it's so important and why it's it's such a problem.
00:20:25:08 - 00:20:50:13
Leslie Kean
Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question because that's where it originated. Like you're saying, back in the fifties and sixties and actually Project Blue Book, which which came before the Condon report and I guess we need to tell people that Project Blue Book was an Air Force program, but into which people could report their sightings and they were supposed to investigate them and basically they were operating using ridicule and, you know, inappropriately explaining away cases.
00:20:50:13 - 00:21:17:08
Leslie Kean
And there was sort of a you know, it was in the culture even before the Condon Committee report came out. And part of that was established by a meeting that was held by CIA group of scientists back in the early 1950s. So the CIA convened this panel and they put out a report which went all around to all the government agencies saying that ridicule, ridicule should be used as a tool to diminish people's interest in this topic, to diminish public focus on it.
00:21:17:10 - 00:21:37:09
Leslie Kean
So it was that was really something that sort of jumpstarted it. And then by the time we got to the Condon Committee report, which was at the end of Project Blue Book in 1969, they were trying to find a way to close down Blue Book and the Condon Committee report was issued by a the University of Colorado. They took on this, but did the study.
00:21:37:09 - 00:21:57:02
Leslie Kean
It was headed up by a physicist by the name of Condon, and they basically said that, you know, none of these none of these cases were worth studying. I basically just said there's nothing here. And they issued this like 1000 page book with all this case data. And a lot of the cases in that book were not explained and were very interesting.
00:21:57:02 - 00:22:18:02
Leslie Kean
But the press release that went out about the you know, about the project said that there's nothing here, that nothing worth investigating, and none of the reporters bothered to read the thousand pages. So basically, that was sort of the nail in the coffin that really shut down the whole UFO investigation by the government. And then everything after that, as you said, was kind of underground, but the stigma remained.
00:22:18:02 - 00:22:26:08
Leslie Kean
It was this use of ridicule as a tool to diminish the significance of this and make people feel foolish so that they wouldn't talk about it.
00:22:26:09 - 00:23:00:07
David Sirota
So let's turn now to the to the most recent news. Let's fast forward from 1970 when Project Blue Book gets gets shut down because of, as you put it, the stigma. You recently published this blockbuster report, along with journalist Ralph Blumenthal, about a former U.S. intelligence official turned whistleblower who's given Congress classified information about covert programs that he says possess intact and partially intact aircraft of non human origin.
00:23:00:13 - 00:23:17:07
David Sirota
So let's start there. Who is the whistleblower? Which government agencies have been allegedly running these programs that allegedly have this technology? And what do we know, if anything, about his specific allegations?
00:23:17:11 - 00:23:39:12
Leslie Kean
Good question. So the whistleblower that we wrote about, his name is David Grush, and he was a very high level intelligence official who worked both for the National and National Geospatial Intelligence Agency or NGO. That was his most recent position. And prior to that, the National Reconnaissance Office, the narrow he was had a lot of responsibilities, had very high clearances.
00:23:39:12 - 00:24:00:05
Leslie Kean
And one of the jobs he had in those agencies was to be their representative to the UAP task force, which was the agency set up at the at Congress's initiative within the Department of Defense to look into the U.S., what we call UAP now, as opposed to UAP, UFOs, to look into that and to try to understand it and document it.
00:24:00:05 - 00:24:26:09
Leslie Kean
So he was deeply involved with that task force. And, you know, at high levels of both the agencies he worked for. And during the time he was there, he uncovered a lot of information regarding the programs that he has since come out, which he referenced. Most of that information was gained by other people he spoke to. He was very, very well-connected within the intelligence community and people trusted him.
00:24:26:11 - 00:24:48:18
Leslie Kean
And therefore, people came to him and people from within these programs came to him and talked to him about the programs and about the illegal aspects of of the fact that these were being withheld from congressional oversight. And he just put together a lot of information, spending years of having these interactions with these people. He was shown documentation, but he cannot obviously release that.
00:24:48:20 - 00:25:13:03
Leslie Kean
And in answer to your question about, you know, where the programs are and all of that stuff, all those specifics are classified. All of those specifics has been provided to Congress and also to the IG, the intelligence community inspector general who took a deposition from Grush under oath, and also took depositions from other people who came in to support Rush's testimony.
00:25:13:05 - 00:25:34:14
Leslie Kean
So they have that information. We, the people, don't, because it's all protected by classification, and it's very, very sensitive information. So the question is to what extent we will be given some of that. Will the Congress fight to have some of that information provided to the general public? And that's what we hope will happen. And that's what, you know, we're all working towards transparency.
00:25:34:14 - 00:25:52:09
Leslie Kean
And I think a grush would certainly like people to understand that this is real without revealing the sensitive, you know, secrets that have to be close held because they can't We don't want our adversaries to understand what we know about the technology, these objects. That's the problem. So that's why everything so, so tightly classified.
00:25:52:09 - 00:26:21:04
David Sirota
Okay. So he has submitted this. He has said he has submitted this to Congress some some I presumably somewhat recently. And so Congress theoretically has this information. Certainly what he says is more details than what he can provide us under under the laws that he's trying to to follow. What have we heard, if anything, from from Congress so far about this?
00:26:21:05 - 00:26:28:05
David Sirota
I mean, is have we heard the Congress saying, hey, we've never even heard of this? Have we heard Congress saying we're going to investigate? Like, what's the next step?
00:26:28:06 - 00:26:46:18
Leslie Kean
And just to clarify to when we say Congress, I mean that the the presentations that he gave were given to congressional staff members from both the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. So and then the staff members have transcribed it, and then it is presented to the members. And he he may have met with some of the members personally, I'm quite sure he did.
00:26:46:18 - 00:27:07:12
Leslie Kean
But but most of it was was with the staffers. And the the thing is that these these people are not allowed to. And I got a statement from a spokesperson for one of the intelligence committees who said that they are not permitted to reveal and or comment on any pending investigation. They're not allowed to reveal the person's name or reference, the investigation.
00:27:07:14 - 00:27:31:12
Leslie Kean
So and staffers are certainly not allowed to talk to reporters. So we're not able to get any any on the record statements at all from Congress. But, you know, there's no question that I mean, it's been confirmed through multiple sources and through off the record conversations that indeed they do have this information. There's no question about that. It's we don't know exactly which members have it, how much time they've spent with it.
00:27:31:14 - 00:27:45:05
Leslie Kean
You know, but I think all of this exposure is going to motivate them to take it. A lot more seriously. And in fact, there have been a couple of congressmen who say they intend to hold a hearing about this very specific information. So we'll see where that goes.
00:27:45:05 - 00:28:10:22
David Sirota
Just to drill down on what what Grush has said for one one more minute here. Has he said that he has seen this technology or has he said that he has seen other officials referring to it in various documents? And I asked this question because there's this idea that's been floated out there. I've heard it characterized by I think it's by by one journalist that wondering whether this is just one giant game of telephone.
00:28:11:00 - 00:28:31:23
David Sirota
In other words, people saying inside the government, I've seen this, I've seen this, I've seen this, and it becomes sort of folklore as opposed to the people who have allegedly actually seen and interacted with this non-human technology. So what I'm what I guess what I'm asking is, is Grush saying that he has seen this, he has evidence. He's literally been in its presence.
00:28:31:23 - 00:28:43:06
David Sirota
He has he can produce or at least point officials to physical evidence or is it is it only sort of second degree of separation? I have been among officials who have said they have seen it.
00:28:43:07 - 00:29:01:12
Leslie Kean
Right. I mean, it's very good question. And it's very important to clarify that he has not seen this himself. He has not touched any of the technology or been in the realm of the technology. He has spoken to numerous absolute, lutely credible people who are literally involved with these programs, and they themselves have been the ones who have seen it.
00:29:01:14 - 00:29:23:18
Leslie Kean
Now, some of these people from within the programs who have this direct knowledge, which is, as you rightly point out, more first hand knowledge than than Russias, have also spoken to members of Congress, have also spoken to the ICG. They're just much more private. They're not going to be coming out with their names because they're still involved. So what we have to understand is there's a lot more going on.
00:29:23:18 - 00:29:44:00
Leslie Kean
There's a lot more information being provided than what Grush has has actually provided. And he's sort of a guy who's coming out to hopefully open the door to more. So it is important to realize he's he's extremely trustworthy and, you know, he's not going to come out with something like this unless he feels he's basically been given proof.
00:29:44:05 - 00:30:06:12
David Sirota
Let's talk about the potential motives for such secrecy here, especially because there is this theory. I've also seen this idea put out there that, you know, if the government really had something, lots of things leak all the time, it would require this is the idea would require too many people to hide secrets for too many years for something real to somehow not come out like that.
00:30:06:12 - 00:30:34:02
David Sirota
That's sort of part of the stigma, right? Like, how could you keep something? Is this something so explosive, this secret for this long? Let's talk about for a moment. If this is real, what would the motives be? If there's national security, there's an economic arms race between governments and their own companies in their own countries, trying to potentially maximize technology.
00:30:34:02 - 00:30:40:17
David Sirota
I mean, what do you think is behind such secret? Is it fear that the public will freak out? What do you what do you think the secrecy is all about?
00:30:40:20 - 00:31:05:06
Leslie Kean
It's such a complicated question, and I think there's a lot of factors at play. I think the key key one regarding these these crash objects, I mean, I agree with you. It is hard to imagine how such a secret could be kept, but it is probably, as I understand it, the most closely guarded secret we have and the security around these programs that are there protecting this stuff is unbelievably intense.
00:31:05:08 - 00:31:27:02
Leslie Kean
There have been threats against people who have tried to speak out. And the other thing to note is that people have spoken out over the years, you know, just someone on their deathbed or something. Right. But they have nothing to back up what they're saying. They have no leg to stand on except a story. And I think what's different with him now with Grush is that he has a much stronger leg to stand on.
00:31:27:04 - 00:32:03:05
Leslie Kean
But I think that the key the key element for the secrecy in terms of this technology is the is the the need to protect any knowledge that we have about how this technology works, to protect that from our adversaries having access to it, like Russia and China. And as he has described, I mean, what he has said and others have said as well, is that there's sort of like a Cold War going on among the our peer level adversaries to try and get the the you know, to get ahead of this technology and be the first one to be able to implement it, to use it, because whoever has it has a huge advantage because
00:32:03:05 - 00:32:26:01
Leslie Kean
it's so advanced. So it has to be kept so secret. I mean, the potential, you know, danger of an of an adversary getting access to this before we do is very serious. So I think in terms of the military, the military and the defense establishment, that's their main concern for keeping a secret. I think the argument that's being made now is everyone would agree with that.
00:32:26:03 - 00:32:51:07
Leslie Kean
But the question is, why can't the civil the people of the world know if assuming this is all true, which I believe it is, you know, why can't the people of the world know that we are not alone, that there is another intelligence and that we have possession of of evidence to prove that even if we can't give you any details about it, it can certainly be established as this is this is part of who we are.
00:32:51:07 - 00:33:03:21
Leslie Kean
And I think the people like Rush who and others who have this knowledge that they can't really talk about it, still believe that people have a right to know this basic fact. And that's what motivates him as an individual to talk about it.
00:33:03:23 - 00:33:25:09
David Sirota
There had been some reporting that The New York Times, The Washington Post, Politico did not want to, for various reasons, publish the news story that you've just broken. Why is that? Does that have to do with what we're talking about with with the stigma? Did it have to do with a simple timetable issues? You wanted to get the story out.
00:33:25:09 - 00:33:31:20
David Sirota
Just just. What's your response to why other bigger publications decided not to publish this?
00:33:31:23 - 00:33:50:11
Leslie Kean
Yeah, and I don't always know. So just to tell you that we originally took this story to The New York Times. It was before we had a lot of had developed the story. So it was at an early stage and they were not interested in publishing it. And they don't they don't give you a reason. I mean, they just passed on the story and I have no idea what that was.
00:33:50:11 - 00:34:11:18
Leslie Kean
And so then when we went to The Washington Post, they were very interested in it. We worked with the Post for weeks and weeks on the story. It looked like they were definitely going to do it and ending, but they had the post, you know, to their credit, doesn't an enormous amount of vetting and they also the person we were working with there had other stories he had to do at the same time.
00:34:11:18 - 00:34:34:06
Leslie Kean
So the process was fairly slow with them. And what happened was it got to a point where things were leaking, where Russia's name leaked, another person's name leaked. He was starting to get sort of weird, threatening phone calls. He felt we felt like safety might be in danger. Things were escalating to such an extent that we felt we just couldn't wait to get the story out.
00:34:34:06 - 00:34:53:13
Leslie Kean
We had to get it out there and we felt it was ready to put out. So we we you know, we just took it to the debrief as a very reputable. It's not The Washington Post. It's not The New York Times, but it's a reputable outlet. And they were able to get it out for us very quickly. And we had a great, great time working with them.
00:34:53:13 - 00:35:15:12
Leslie Kean
And then Politico also when we went, we to Politico, when we realized we only had like we had to get it out within a week or something like that, they were very, very interested in the story as well. But they couldn't guarantee us the time frame that we had to have and they respected our limitations. So they, you know, if they'd had a little more time, they would have taken the story, I think so.
00:35:15:12 - 00:35:23:20
Leslie Kean
You know, it wasn't like nobody else wanted it. A lot of the problem was the time crunch. We suddenly felt we were under for a whole bunch of different reasons. Then we just had to move quickly.
00:35:23:21 - 00:35:46:09
David Sirota
I understand that running the levers newsroom, I totally get all of those pressures. I think a lot of people who don't work in newsrooms don't necessarily understand that. And I really appreciate that that transparency on that. So so let's go back to the for a moment to then to The New York Times story that you did publish in 2017, the story about the the so-called Nimitz incident.
00:35:46:11 - 00:36:05:15
David Sirota
Give us a brief summary of the meeting that you had in 2017. And then for those who don't know what you ultimately reported back then and how you think potentially what you reported back then connects to the grudge story and what you've just reported in recent weeks.
00:36:05:16 - 00:36:31:19
Leslie Kean
So the meeting in 2017, which you just asked me about, which happened before our our big story came out, was really like a turning point for me. There is in my mind, there is the before 2017 and the after 2017. And there are two different worlds. And it like changed everything for me. And I'd been reporting on this topic for 17 years, so I had developed a lot of connections with people on the inside, so to speak.
00:36:31:21 - 00:36:50:20
Leslie Kean
So those people, some of those people invited me to this in 2017 and October to meet with a man named Luis Elizondo who had headed up a secret program at the Pentagon. And he was literally he was resigning from that job. It was either the day that I met him or the day before he was just resigning at that moment.
00:36:50:22 - 00:37:14:03
Leslie Kean
And I had no idea that there even was a program and I'd been advocating for a long time for there to be a program not one like this, but a more a more open ended program. But to to be invited to that meeting was just profound for me. And I was able to sit there for like 3 hours with with Luis Elizondo and some of his colleagues who I who I already knew and learn about this program that I knew nothing about.
00:37:14:05 - 00:37:30:07
Leslie Kean
I was shown, you know, all kinds of documents. I was I learned that Harry Reid was Senator Harry was the one who got the backing for the program. I was shown a letter, letters from him, and then I was shown these three Navy videos on a computer. It was not Elizondo that showed them to me, but someone else.
00:37:30:07 - 00:38:04:04
Leslie Kean
And the whole package was just Earth shattering and mind blowing to me. Also, his his Luis Elizondo resignation letter that he wrote to the Secretary of Defense, James Mattis, which I believe at that point, yes, he had just delivered that letter. I could not believe that I was reading something written to the Secretary of Defense about the importance of of investigating UFOs, the importance of resources being developed, you know, being devoted to them, that that it was a national security concern and not enough attention was being paid to it.
00:38:04:04 - 00:38:30:00
Leslie Kean
I mean, it was just, you know, now we sort of are used to this to these things happening. But at that moment, it was like revolutionary that any of this was happening, given what I'd been dealing with prior to that. So one of the reasons they they brought me to that meeting is with the hopes that this might end up in the New York Times, because I had a close colleague, Ralph Blumenthal, who was a freelancer for the Times and had been on staff there for four decades.
00:38:30:02 - 00:38:55:19
Leslie Kean
So what happened was I took this to Ralph. We we pitched at the Times. We had an in-person meeting with a very high level person from the Times. And they they they wanted the story. And so we spent a few months working on it, along with Helene Cooper, the national security incredible reporter for The New York Times. Absolute gift to be able to work with her, a Pentagon reporter for The Times and then the story broken in December 17th of 2017.
00:38:55:19 - 00:39:17:16
Leslie Kean
And really what the story was showing was that there was a secret program that Harry Reid was in support of it and had arranged funding for this, that UFOs were being taken seriously by the Pentagon because they were spending all these years looking into them, and that Elizondo resigned In order to hope that he might be able to get more attention for this problem by going outside of government.
00:39:17:18 - 00:39:35:18
Leslie Kean
And we also covered what you mentioned, the Nimitz case. We did a little bit on the Nimitz case. It was a much bigger case than what we had the space for, but it was a way of launching that and of getting David Fravor into the public arena, who has since become almost a household name among anybody who cares about UFOs.
00:39:35:18 - 00:39:53:01
Leslie Kean
I mean, it was it was the first time he had actually gone public, as far as I think. And became a major figure. And then these people ended up briefing members of Congress. So anyway, it was the beginning of the whole snowball effect that has taken us to where we are today. A lot has happened between 2017 and now.
00:39:53:03 - 00:40:17:04
David Sirota
And these cases, the videos that were published by your reporting in The New York Times and accounts from pilots, I mean, they all. What's been the upshot of that? I mean, has it gone back to being ignored? Has the government explained it? Where do you think we are in that reporting? Has it has it revealed anything or does it remain unexplained?
00:40:17:05 - 00:40:39:10
Leslie Kean
Well, it certainly remains unexplained. I mean, nobody can say, you know, they come from such and such a place and they're these are what, you know, nobody they're unexplained. But what's but a lot has happened, David, because for one thing, the government, the officials have all acknowledged that this phenomenon is a real phenomenon that never happened before 2017.
00:40:39:12 - 00:41:01:23
Leslie Kean
They have acknowledged that they think it's important to investigate it. They hadn't done that. They're doing that now. They actually set up this agency, you know, the task force. It's now called the All Domain Anomalous research organization, I believe. Anyway, Arrow is the is the acronym. And so Congress has mandated that they they there be this agency to investigate UAP.
00:41:02:01 - 00:41:30:21
Leslie Kean
They have passed legislation demanding that reports be provided to Congress that whistleblower be given protection, that areas such as medical effects be studied on people, that materials that have been retrieved, they want to know about that which relates to the crash retrievals that, you know, anything that's been retrieved. Congress wants reports on that. So there is like this movement now really led by Congress to try to get to the bottom of this.
00:41:30:21 - 00:42:01:02
Leslie Kean
And they have a lot of power to request that certain things happen both in the Department of Defense and elsewhere. They've received many classified briefings, members of these intelligence committees, many, many classified briefings by many different people. They know a great deal. I think when people people have to realize that when a one of these Intelligence Committee members makes a statement, whatever, you know, may not be that detailed, but it's based on classified information that we don't have.
00:42:01:02 - 00:42:23:03
Leslie Kean
But they do have they know so much more than we do. And we always have to remember that because I think people forget and people also forget that the reason they can't say more is because of the national security protections, which hopefully some of that will be changed. But it's really a new world. I mean, David, compared to what it was before 2017, the government is now actively engaged with this.
00:42:23:05 - 00:42:44:01
Leslie Kean
They've passed legislation, they've set up an investigative agencies had. The other thing that happened was they had the first open public hearing on this since 1968, and they've had two so far and they're going to have another one now. So it's really you know, it's really different. And there is a sense of excitement that we are moving in.
00:42:44:05 - 00:42:53:23
Leslie Kean
We're moving forward all the time. New things happen, new developments. One builds on the next. And there are there are people in high places who want this information to come out.
00:42:54:00 - 00:43:21:09
David Sirota
So beyond reading your book, which goes over a lot of of this stuff, which I would encourage everybody who's listening to do, I would love to hear from you. In your mind, what are the two, three, four most important UFO events that have gone unexplained and that the government hasn't provided answers to that people can just, you know, go on on on the Internet and just look up.
00:43:21:09 - 00:43:38:16
David Sirota
I mean, I've heard of Roswell. I you know, I've heard of the Nimitz incident as an example. What do you in your mind as somebody who has reported on this for for as long as you have? What are some of the other events where it's you know, where it's really like they have not explained this, The reports are credible.
00:43:38:19 - 00:43:39:12
David Sirota
What are those?
00:43:39:12 - 00:43:57:22
Leslie Kean
That's a great question because there are so many. David, I think maybe I'll try to focus more on some that are not too far in the distant past. And also just to preface this, was saying these are all unexplained cases. It doesn't mean that none of them could be our own technology or someone else's technology. It doesn't seem likely.
00:43:57:22 - 00:44:17:00
Leslie Kean
But, you know, we were you don't know to what extent our own government has developed a very sophisticated technology that we don't even know they have. So you always have to leave that door open. But, you know, some of the more recent cases, people could look up the Phenix lights, which took place in 1997 and march over Arizona.
00:44:17:02 - 00:44:38:16
Leslie Kean
I mean, this was a case that where hundreds of people saw these gigantic, boomerang shaped objects that were like floating silently over the state that would maybe three of them. They were mapped for like an hour and a half. And we never got any any explanation or any, you know, investigation or any in that from our government, which is supposed to be protecting us.
00:44:38:20 - 00:45:10:01
Leslie Kean
It was just shocking how they just avoided that completely. And there was even a lot of the witnesses, they filed a class action lawsuit to try to get information from the government and got nothing. Hard to believe the lack of engagement that took place in these cases prior to 2017. Another one is the O'Hare incident of 26. You know, O'Hare Airport, there was a disk that hovered over the gates, C17, United Airlines for about 5 minutes.
00:45:10:01 - 00:45:36:16
Leslie Kean
It was a long time. And then it just shot straight up to the clouds and cut this hole in the clouds, demonstrating technology that nobody thinks we have. And that's another interesting case. There's a chapter about that in my book. And then, you know, there are cases there are two interesting cases back. There's one in the seventies, one in 1980 of these pilots that attempted to shoot down UFOs or tried and there's one by an Iranian pilot, which is just fascinating.
00:45:36:16 - 00:45:57:07
Leslie Kean
And he he later became a general. And that case was thoroughly documented even by our own government. We there's a three page document that where we where our officials from the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, actually briefed the people involved in that case and filed it away. And it was classified. But then it was eventually released through the Freedom of Information Act.
00:45:57:07 - 00:46:19:06
Leslie Kean
And so you can read the documents. That's the I believe it was 1976. The I don't know if it has a name, but it was a case over Tehran where the pilot's name was Parviz Jafari, and he attempted to shoot down these projectiles that were being shot toward his airplane by this gigantic diamond shaped thing that was hanging in the sky.
00:46:19:08 - 00:46:31:06
Leslie Kean
And people on the ground saw it and it was just all over. Everyone saw that it was really well documented. Another, you know, I mean, I could go on and on. That's three of them. There are you know, there are so many.
00:46:31:07 - 00:46:49:22
David Sirota
Well, that's why that's why people should read your book. Want to ask one one final question, then, just to summarize all of this moving forward, knowing the fits and starts that there have been in this reporting and the public's interest in this, and it's sort of The New York Times story from 2017, I think it grabbed a lot of people's attention.
00:46:49:22 - 00:47:13:13
David Sirota
And then and then it sort of it didn't fizzle. But I think, you know, look, we live in a goldfish culture. I've said that before. I'll say it again, a goldfish culture where it's like everyone forgets their entire world every 15 minutes. I saw this story in the debrief after having read your reporting in The New York Times, after having read The New Yorker, The New Yorker's long piece that kind of summarized a lot of your reporting as well.
00:47:13:15 - 00:47:36:05
David Sirota
I am super interested in this, and I want to say I know that there are going to be listeners to this podcast who are going to say, Oh, you know, we shouldn't even focus on this, or this is just the the military industrial complex trying to trying to distract our attention. I mean, to me, this does raise the biggest questions of of really human existence.
00:47:36:05 - 00:48:00:02
David Sirota
Are we alone in in the universe? And I think that, like, if if that's not interesting to you, I don't know what is interesting to to listeners. I find it incredibly, incredibly interesting and I want to know more. So, Mike, my final question for you is where do you think this all goes from here? What are the next logical steps to come out of the Crush revelations?
00:48:00:06 - 00:48:12:12
David Sirota
Do you expect more to be coming out to the general public on this stuff? I mean, I don't want to get you to disclose whatever you're working on now in reporting. I don't want you to scoop yourself, but where do you think this goes?
00:48:12:12 - 00:48:32:12
Leslie Kean
Yeah, I mean, it's it's fascinating. And I agree with you, David, about the importance of this. I mean, I've been as I said, I've been doing it for 23 years. And if there was if it was nothing to it, I wouldn't still be doing it. There's a lot to it. And in terms of what what happens next, I mean, I think it's more about what I would hope for rather than what I think will happen.
00:48:32:12 - 00:48:51:23
Leslie Kean
But it's sort of both. I mean, we have already had some congressmen say that they want to hold a hearing. So that's one big step, which could happen within the next couple of months in which maybe they will actually focus that hearing on the Dave Grush revelations, which is what they said they want to do. So we might get a lot more information from that hearing.
00:48:51:23 - 00:49:15:07
Leslie Kean
Maybe he will be allowed to say things that he so far has not felt. He could say he might be absolved of certain security bills that will allow him to say more. So that's one thing that could happen. They could call others along with him because as I said, there are many others that have even more information that are that are out and about speaking to congresspeople, speaking to the Defense Department, doing what they do, but they're not public yet.
00:49:15:09 - 00:49:42:21
Leslie Kean
So I would hope that a hearing like that could be very important. I would hope that more and I think this will happen, that more people with the kind of information that Grush has or more information will come forward. They might not all be whistleblowers. Whistle blower is a very specific term, meaning that you're you're you're focusing on illegal activity that the government has engaged in and not all people that have this information and want to accused the government of illegal activity.
00:49:42:21 - 00:50:06:04
Leslie Kean
They might just want to provide information. So let's just group them all as witnesses. So I'm I'm hoping and I think it's likely that Grush will inspire other witnesses to come forward. People want they want to wait and see what the fallout is for him, what happens to him as a result of doing this, assuming that there's nothing that is of concern, You know that.
00:50:06:06 - 00:50:30:03
Leslie Kean
And I think he's a lot safer now than he was before. Now he's in the public arena that others will be inspired to come out as well. And we'll support him and we'll reveal additional information and that we'll just gradually learn more more that validates all of this. And the other thing is it's just documentation as well. It's not just what people say, but it's photographs, documents.
00:50:30:03 - 00:50:50:16
Leslie Kean
It's whatever Congress feels comfortable in safely releasing that does not threaten our national security. And of course, there are elements that do not want any of this to come out. So there's always pushback. That's why the process is slow and you have to do this push and pull thing and there are going to be people trying to stop it and they're going to be people that want it to go forward.
00:50:50:18 - 00:51:14:09
Leslie Kean
But I just think, you know, in a nutshell, it's just about more and more information gradually coming out and more and more officials, scientists, policymakers engaging with it and giving it the importance that I know you and I believe that it deserves. So, you know, as time goes on, that's what happens. It's just it's like a a snowball and you roll it down the hill and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
00:51:14:11 - 00:51:17:05
Leslie Kean
And that's kind of how I see it evolving in the future.
00:51:17:06 - 00:51:44:22
David Sirota
Leslie Cain is an investigative journalist known for her work in the field of UFO, or now it's called UAP Research and Government Secrecy. She is the author of the books UFOs, Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the record as well as the book Surviving Death. A journalist Investigates evidence for an Afterlife. She is also the author of this huge story in the debrief, which we will link to in the description of this podcast.
00:51:45:00 - 00:51:49:01
David Sirota
Leslie Cain, thank you for your reporting on this and thank you for taking the time with us.
00:51:49:06 - 00:51:58:09
Leslie Kean
Thank you, David. Thanks for your interest in this, and I'd be happy to talk to you again if you ever want to get back together. It's been great speaking with you. Thanks so much.
00:51:58:11 - 00:52:20:08
David Sirota
That's it for today's show. As a reminder, our paid subscribers who get leisure time premium, you get access to our bonus episodes. So listen to leisure time premium. Just head over to News.com to become a supporting subscriber. When you do, you get access to all delivers premium content, including our weekly newsletters and our live events. And that's all for just eight bucks a month or 70 bucks for the year.
00:52:20:14 - 00:52:39:02
David Sirota
One last favor. Please be sure to like, subscribe and write a review for leisure time on your favorite podcast app. The app you are listening to right now. Take 10 seconds and give us a positive review in that app and make sure to check out all of the incredible reporting our team has been doing over at Lipper News.com.
00:52:39:04 - 00:52:53:21
David Sirota
Until next time. I'm David Sirota. Rock the Boat Every Time podcast is a production of The Lover and the Lover Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, David Sirota. Our producer is Frank Cappello, with help from the Levers lead producer Jared Chang. Mayor.