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Leading Awake is where top executives, founders, and senior leaders drop the mask and get real about the human side of leading at the highest level. The high-pressure, high-stakes moments where leadership actually counts. The decisions, conversations, and responses that can't be taken back. Each episode brings three of them into the kind of unscripted, honest conversation that doesn't usually happen in public.
**Gilan Gork** [00:00]
Every leader will feel in their bones. The numbers, the deadlines
**Ivan Moroke** [00:04]
It is tough to be a servant leader. It is extremely difficult.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [00:08]
Colleagues were openly against it. The view was that it'll be too risky and they may not be able to cope.
**Gilan Gork** [00:13]
This is a real unpolished conversation about the inner game of leading at the edge of pressure. The former CEO of Kantar South Africa, a vice president of IT at DHL, an award-winning CIO who's a driving force in banking.
**Mahendra Beharie** [00:28]
Being that my people's eyes are not shining.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [00:31]
Sure. If they stop bringing me bad news, that's always a red sign for me. The silence becomes louder than any metric.
**Gilan Gork** [00:38]
There's a question that most leaders feel but rarely say out loud. Can I stay human and still deliver? Can I hold space for my people when the board is waiting?
**Ivan Moroke** [00:48]
Feedback is a gift.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [00:49]
You just may not have that privilege in that moment to fully.
**Ivan Moroke** [00:52]
I've learned the hard way.
**Gilan Gork** [00:55]
Leading at the edge of pressure.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [00:57]
I was going to rise and fall on my sword.
**Gilan Gork** [01:04]
Welcome to Leading Awake. If we've not met before, I am Gilan Gork. My background is a little unusual. I started out as a professional mentalist working with the human mind on stages across the world. And that path eventually led me to the world of leadership, working with leaders and organizations across the globe and what it really takes to see clearly and lead wisely, especially when we're under pressure. And now it's led me to this show and to conversations like the one that you're about to hear. Because here's what I know after doing this work for over two decades. The pressure on leaders today is relentless. The deadlines don't stop, expectations don't stop. And somewhere in the middle of it all, there's a question that most leaders feel but rarely say out loud. Can I keep showing up as being human and still deliver at the level that everyone needs from me? Can I stay curious when the clock is running? Can I hold space for my people when the board is waiting for results? Can I lead the room when I'm the one carrying the room? And so That is what today's conversation is really about. We're not going to be talking about frameworks or dashboards. We're talking about the inner game of what it actually takes to stay human at the age of pressure. And I'm joined by three leaders who are living this right now at the very top of their fields. Ivan Moroke is former CEO of Kantar South Africa, and he spent his career turning human insight into meaningful growth and knows better than most that the numbers only ever tell you half the story. Mahendra Bihari is the vice president of IT at DHL Sub-Saharan Africa leading digital transformation across one of the most complex logistical landscapes on earth, across multiple cultures, multiple continents. And then we have Nomonde White-Ndlovu, who is one of South Africa's youngest ever CIOs. She's an award-winning driving force in banking and someone who leads with a very clear philosophy, which is to be very hard on delivery, but also deeply, deliberately soft on people. Three leaders, three very different worlds. One honest conversation about staying human at the edge of pressure. Now, before we get into it, a quick word. Everything that we're about to explore in this conversation, the pressure, the complexity, the moments where how you want to show up, but something pulls you off course, this all points to something that every leader I've worked with eventually recognizes. When the pressure's on, your thinking narrows. Not because you're less capable, but because that's what pressure does.
**Gilan Gork** [03:29]
It squeezes your perception. And in a world that keeps getting more complex and more unpredictable, more demanding, that narrowing is exactly what you can least afford. The PEAK Practice Programme is a 14-day guided audio practice that I built for leaders based on two decades of working with leaders and organizations across the globe. Its core purpose is to expand your bandwidth under pressure so that you see more of what's actually happening. You can think more clearly and really lead from a place of genuine clarity rather than noise. It takes just 10 to 15 minutes a day and leaders who have been through it describe it as one of the most practically useful things that they've done for their leadership. If that's interesting to you, head to peekawake.com. But for now, let's get into this conversation. I thought that it would be fun just to get to know each other a little bit. What is something that is lighting you up outside of work? I'll go first, maybe. I'll I'll I'll share something just this morning. I was at Pilates before this. Now I'm a weightlifter and my wife said to me, Come and do Pilates. And you would think that like one skill would like transfers into the other. and I'm sitting there with like my two gil kilogram dumbbells, like doing five hundred of these presses and my arms are like falling off. And and like everyone else in the class who are like these petite women. who are just going and they're like so much stronger than me and I'm just thinking, How on earth am I like my arms are flailing all over the place with these two kilogram thumbells? And it lit me up because it's like cool, there's something else that I can I can get better at. What about you guys? What's happening outside of work?
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [05:11]
It's cooking. I really, really love cooking. It's it's like my safe space, specifically cooking with my daughter.
**Ivan Moroke** [05:17]
Generally is travelling onto the continent in particular. So every opportunity, work pleasure, but mostly I travel a bit through work. It's just like, it leaves my spirits. I think for me personally, is a lot driven about family and I've got two daughters and that's my world.
**Gilan Gork** [05:43]
There's a question that I start all of our round tables with, regardless of what the what the topic is, and it very much got to do with growth mindset. and the question is, is there a belief about leadership or culture that you've changed your mind about?
**Mahendra Beharie** [06:00]
So I think for me, it's, mindset's incredible because it's not, you talk about a growth mindset, but ultimately it's saying, what is it that you need to physically understand? How are things changing and giving people an opportunity? I think that's part of it. It's understanding where individuals are within their journey to help them because your definition of growth might be vastly different to somebody else. And I think that for me was a key turning point. was trying to understand where they are within that journey in order to change that growth factor and what does that exponential growth look like? Because you might be looking at a factor of 10, they might be looking at a factor of 20. And in some cases, others might be looking at a factor of two. So when you see that, it's how do you perceive it? How do you understand them a lot better? And how do you bring them along that journey? Because it's not just your vision, because if you want to lead effectively, it's about bringing the people along on that journey. Otherwise you're going to be miles ahead of everyone else and assume that they have an understanding of how things are operating. leadership is not a zero-sum game and I think that's what the problem is. It's like it's either you are people-oriented or you are task-oriented, your high performance is.
**Gilan Gork** [07:10]
Thanks for sharing, man.
**Ivan Moroke** [07:24]
It's not, it is not a zero sum game. So it's not life if you think about it right. Yeah. It's the issue of end and those ends, many of the times they are in conflict with each other. It's in conflict within yourself. Think about the concept and the answer for me, it would be servant leadership. Now, even when I say it, no matter when you say that, it conjures so many things, positive or even negative, because it sounds it. The concept itself, sounds like an oxymoron, servant leader, should you think about it. And there's the whole point of it. It is tough to be a servant leader. It's extremely difficult. It's a daily thing you've got to do. You've got to be intentional about it. And it's hard. And I believe it doesn't stop until you see Omega, to be honest. There's never a destination because it's a constant. self mastery and self mastery mean going through pain and being aware of the shortcomings and accepting that you can never get rid of them, but it's about managing it. So for me, there's been, I'm still a working process, even at my age, in terms of doing those two balancing things. Yeah.
**Gilan Gork** [08:48]
How about my day?
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [08:50]
When I started out in my journey, I thought leadership meant always having to have the answers and being the strongest voice in the room. but over time I've learned that real leadership is actually about creating space for others to bring the answers board. So it's less about certainty and more about curiosity. So the more I've shifted from I need to know it all to I need to invite it all in so that we actually have a better outcome with regards to what we're doing. the stronger my teams and decisions have actually become over time. But actually, I think just creating space for others to bring their answers forward builds so much more curiosity and trust. Because you hire people, you bring people into your team because you want them to bring their authentic selves. I certainly never aspire to be the smartest person in the room, nor do I want to be the smartest person in my team. Because if I am, then I'm in the wrong space, I'm in the wrong team. Because when you hire you should be hiring, or at least I try to hire for my blind spot, if I can call it that, because I'm human, I'm fallible, I'm far from perfect. and I'm a technologist who studied politics and law. So I'm not like a typical technologist. I'm a very strong technologist because I've never practiced law in my life. So I bring a different element to it. But curiosity has helped me a lot. And I think I've gotten to where I am because I've just been curious. and I've never aspired to be the smartest one in the room. Well at least not anymore.
**Gilan Gork** [10:23]
I'd love to know more. Nomonde, like in the heat of deadlines, I think many leaders can very easily slip into that command and control mode, which is sometimes the opposite of holding space, right? And I think that we may do that because it often feels faster, but it can also sideline people as well. so I'm wondering what small personal habits or rituals do you rely on to keep yourself inclusive and open and holding that space? Even when the pressure's on even on the toughest days. What what are some of those habits or rituals that you fall back on?
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [10:58]
I think we spoke a bit about one of them. So I do pilot like it's I feel like how it all works out. Something isn't right with within my ecosystem. So that's I selfishly do that. it's an investment that I make for myself because it's hard and it reminds me that I can actually do hard things and walk out of there feeling great with strong apps. So that's another really good benefit. To to doing it. But also, I'm I meditate. So I can never stop my day without praying because I realise that literally if God doesn't send to me, I'm equally off balance. There's a lot that I don't know. Like I'm human, I'm fallible. So my daily prayer is actually, Lord, please order my footsteps and speak through me.
**Gilan Gork** [11:46]
Wondering what the guys are also thinking about this, 'cause I know that this is a very common leadership challenge.
**Ivan Moroke** [11:52]
There's the ritual like with, I've just started on doing breath work every morning because I'm horrible. I'm a bad breather. I, I've been told that all my life and I've tried different things this past, it's the first week actually that I've stuck to it. Take 15 minutes of doing breath work. So, which is, I'm sticking to that. But in, in closing, when you say something important to say, yeah, with all the things that you're doing, but there's deadline, there are numbers. There are some things you got to do. That's where feedback from your team is important. And feedback from your team can only happen if they know you will take it like feedback is a gift. When, because there will be those moments where I will take that thing. There's no time. I wish I had the time to work with you on it. I cannot. Stakeholders want this thing within an hour. I need to do it. I need to step on your toes. But when I do, as long as when I get reminded, I've cultivated enough relationship for them firstly to be able to tell me, to say this is out of character or this was not cool, what should you do? But then we can only know that if they know that you've cultivated an end, that respect for them to come back with you. Don't expect people to say, Feedback, open door policy and all that. If we have not given the people as no one was in the space to say, I can tell Ivan that and you won't take it personally. might didn't sting. It might be awful, but it'll be okay with it. If we believe that we indestructible, we never going to show people that we were vulnerable at certain times, that we have taken a wrong step. And I think as you create a lot more pressure in command and control, I think that if we needed to stay inclusive, we've got to understand where people are coming from. You we often talk about a people-centric approach and everyone can give you all of the jargon that goes along with it, but your actions speak louder than words. And that for me is part of that secret recipe. It's about making sure that we take them and we say, give us that feedback. as you put it, you articulated it so well, Ivan. You said feedback is a gift, right? And you can either break somebody down with feedback
**Mahendra Beharie** [14:18]
Or you can build them up. And that's part of the entire journey that we need to be on. He's saying, if I'm self-aware, what is that going to change? I've got to be intentional in the way in which I approach things. And for me, it's a little bit about setting small term, short term goals so that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
**Gilan Gork** [14:39]
I know for me when I'm in that situation where I might be getting into command and control, it's actually amazing because of my daily meditations, I actually become more aware of when my breathing changes. And it's amazing how just your entire physiologic like physiological response can help me to just be aware that I'm in that territory. So I'm curious, what are the personal signals that you pay attention to in your people? Things like the moments, the behaviours, or even the feedback. that reassures you that you're still on track as a leader who's trying to hold that space and be inclusive and still have those those high standards. So so I guess again, my question is what are the personal signals that you pay attention to in your people that shows that you're on track with that?
**Mahendra Beharie** [15:21]
The thing that resonates with me is there's a quote by Benjamin Zander and it says, am I being that my people's eyes are not shining? And that is something that we do from a training standpoint for all of the leadership that we got coming in. And that stands out to say that we've got to look inwardly in order for us to start seeing where things are. And it's so easy to get. lost and caught up in all of the things of the world that you sometimes don't want to want to look critically at some of the things that you can do differently. And I also think, you we all spoke, you guys spoke about body language and reading the room. And I think it comes easy to some and to some it's not so easy. And I think that part of it is saying, how do I create that personality that people want to see? And it's saying, can I be my authentic self? One of the biggest things I've had to learn recently, which is surprising because it is so obvious, is diversity of leadership in your leadership team. There has been a mind opening thing that I've discovered recently, which is I said, I'm surprised that I only see it now to say that different leaders in the people that you are leading, that pose on corn support that different leadership teams, but it doesn't mean there's anyone that is wrong or right. And you have to adapt to that. So on partner opposite, you might have the leader in your team who says back off, don't ever ask me, come to me, I'll come to you, let me be, I'm independent, I'll come to you when there's an issue. But if I don't just know everything's fine, on the extreme opposite might be somebody, hey, can I, who are quite collaborative, can I bounce something off on you and all that, right? All of these, there are pros and cons in each of them, right? The one on the left, the biggest thing is like, let them fly. But normally when they call you, something has hit the fan. If what right? It's like, the other one on the other side is like, the good thing is you are in touch with what is happening connected, but sometimes you might feel like, there's pressure. I wish you could just run with this. It's not for you.
**Ivan Moroke** [17:40]
So I'm articulating that going back to my thing about you being able to pick up. So if that person who is independent is behaving in a certain way, you will know because it's like a bit odd or as opposed to the other one who's always wanting to bounce some ideas. If not, they are withdrawn something is wrong. So those are the things. it's about how they behave when we have those sessions. The less I speak, is the more I will see and I will observe.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [18:14]
I agree with Ivan. I think human cues are critical and being able to pick that up. So for me, I try and pay attention to whether my people still feel safe enough to challenge me in whatever it is that we are going through. So if they stop bringing me bad news or only tell me what they think I want to hear, that's always a red sign for me that I've drifted and something has potentially shifted with me in terms of how I'm showing up. Where they now feel that they need to move around on XL. So that's that's an internal thing where I'm like, okay, I need to do some reflection there. And then Ivan spoke about this quite eloquently when he spoke about energy. So another signal is definitely energy. So even under pressure, am I still seeing the spark in my people? Is there humor, is there creativity in the room? Or are we now at a point where the relationship is purely transactional? where there's this delivery, here's the output, and then and then we're actually done. So in times of intense delivery that you actually have to deliver, where where your meetings are going to get intense because not everything can be roses and peaches. when I notice that people have stopped laughing in our check-ins, because I do have one on one monthly check-ins with my teams, that silence, and I think Ivan alluded to that, the silence becomes louder than any metric. on any dashboard. And when that happens, you actually need to step back and name it in the room. And then deliberately create space for people to breathe again.
**Gilan Gork** [19:48]
Ivan, when you were talking about like I just imagine an extractor fan like sucking the our humanity out of us when we get to work, like those Harry Potter ghouls or whatever that like draws people's souls out where you're saying like we in our private lives or personal lives, we're genuinely interested in people and then suddenly we come to the office and something changes. And so it got that really got me thinking about just how a A lot of people know what to do, right? Like we know that we should be caring for people, seeing them as people, not problem. Like all the stuff that we're doing, pe I think a lot of leaders watching and listening to this know that. But what is the system that we're operating in that is causing us to still shift to that to that other side? I think
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [20:33]
I think leadership in and of its own is challenging and difficult. I think people see titles and assume that all these nice things come with it, but you actually don't see the essence and the challenges that somebody has to deal with on a daily basis. Because you still have shareholders who you need to deliver value to. Your numbers are your numbers, there's revenue lines that you actually can't miss because you're not running and even an MPO has deliverables that they actually need to meet. So we're there for a purpose, right? And when you're leading, there's a bigger purpose. You have a responsibility to everyone who's underneath you. if you bring it back to country duty, South Africa is one of the most unequal societies in the entire world. And we cannot afford for businesses not to perform because that means that people will lose their jobs. We are already under pressure as a country. So you want to ensure that you have sustainable businesses. And when you have been given the privilege of leading, You have a responsibility to that seat. Regardless of what is going on around you, you have a responsibility. So unfortunately, because you've chosen it or it's chosen you, you have to show it respect. You have to show it the respect that it actually deserves. And when tough conversations need to be had, you have to be able to have those tough conversations. It doesn't mean you're not human. It just means that the position that you hold is different from somebody else who's able to fall apart when they need to fall apart. You just may not have that privilege in that moment, but it doesn't mean that you won't be afforded the grace to be able to deal with whatever human things that you're going through. But I firmly believe that as leaders, we become more affected when we are compassionate versus always just leveraging off of empathy because then you are de you're working in emotions all the time. And that's detrimental to you, even at a human level.
**Ivan Moroke** [22:26]
That is so fundamental. mean, but no one, they just said about compassion. This is empathy because from this conversation, guys, remember we're talking about us. do we lead? It's not like we're leading perfect people who might not even be manipulative or might take advantage of your compassion and all that. Right. That's why it's quite important to do that compassion thing because it's not like it's easy to do from leaders and we accept that. But you're also doing it. These are adults that you're dealing with that sometimes you have to have new compassion, but absolutely have to take the tough call because to understand at the end of the day, it's a business. It's just that we are trying to make a business humane, but it's a business. We are not trying to make a humane organisation and have business principles in it. It's fundamentally a business. with shareholders and people who might have started or who are in control, they might not even care at all about the humanity or compassion. That's the other thing. They could not even care less. It's you bringing your compassion to deliver what doesn't change. I always say numbers never lie. They just don't tell the full story. I think you've got major pressure because in order to get all of these things on the deliverables, can use numbers to tell the story that I want to relate and to drive the way in which I wanna move it forward. And I think part of that is saying, there's people that are impacted along that journey to see how do we deliver on that result and when do you need to be firm and when do you need to help them with it? And I think that you were right. You talk about empathy and the way in which we engage in compassion and at which point do you cut ties, right? I think that's part of the difficult decisions. It's when does accountability play a massive part in it? And I think that part of it is saying that we need to be factual, right? We work on a concept where we say, if I can point out what your action is, what the impact has been and what should you be doing differently? I think that's part of the entire thing, right? Because if you use that as a framework in terms of either motivational feedback or developmental feedback, you get a lot more buy in.
**Gilan Gork** [24:51]
If you're listening to this and recognising yourself in what these leaders are describing, that ability to stay wide, stay clear, stay connected to what actually matters, even as the pressure builds and the world just gets more and more complex, I want you to know that's not a personality trait. It's a trainable capacity. And that's exactly what the PEAK Practice Programme is built around. Each day in about 10 to 15 minutes a day, you work through a short guided practice that trains you to notice when pressure is narrowing your perception. And to expand back out so that you see the situation more fully, that you can think with more clarity and respond from a bigger, calmer place. Leaders who've been through it often say that the shift shows up not just in these high stake moments, but also in the everyday ones too. The conversations, the decisions, the times when complexity quietly builds and you need to be at your best. So that's 14 days, 10 to 15 minutes guided practice. If that seems interesting to you, head to peakawake.com. But for now, Back to the conversation. I think the real test is really when leaders personally choose to back someone who's very different from themselves, someone who maybe doesn't look or sound the same as them, or someone who doesn't fit the typical mold in their organisation. and so I would love to find out from from you guys, like what was at stake at a time where maybe you had to make that choice to back someone who who was very different to the to the mold or the stereotype or the expectation. what doubts or risks did you have to weigh up and what impact did it have? does anyone have an experience share?
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [26:28]
Like a when you when you make a decision to hire someone, or mine was whose background actually was a chef and I'm in technology. They base their base qualification was they they had worked as a chef, but they had experience from an industry perspective. And I'm the last person to judge anyone. I studied law, so I'm a lot more open minded than than most. But the role was for a senior leadership role like within my space and team, but Needless to say, when you sit when you hire senior leaders, you sit on a panel with your colleagues, right? Who were completely against this because obviously this gentleman would have had to deliver for them as well. So it was like, okay, but this person has to work with us as well. We hear you, but like Chef, like the they went to cooking school. Are you sure that this is the decision that we should be making? But I actually took the decision to hire them into that critical role. they were not the obvious choice. in fact there was other Like I said, colleagues were openly against it. The view was that it would be too risky and they may not be able to cope within the role. but I saw potential that other people would ordinarily overlook. They had resilience, they were curious, and a willingness to actually learn quite quickly. More than anything else, they had this nack for customer experience, like wanting to give the best to clients. They could see through things that an ordinary technologist would not be able to see. So the engagement with clients, specifically across the country, because that role would have required them to actually work with CIOs across the country, worked like a charm. He was very charming as well. So he was able to extract input and information that here in South Africa we weren't able to do and actually solve majority of the issues that the countries had without any issues because he was that personable. And obviously to Ivan's point, when someone excels and they do well, all of a sudden this was a great decision, even though you weren't for it. Even though people may not have a traditional path that you think they should have, they could be the best thing that happens to any organisation if you actually just give them a shot. But if it doesn't work out, you do you stake your reputation on the line because are new, man.
**Ivan Moroke** [28:37]
Exactly.
**Gilan Gork** [28:39]
Yeah, there's other leaders out there who are gonna be faced with situations where they're gonna hear this and they're gonna either they get they might be in a situation where they they feel like, okay, I this person's got the values, they they've got a different perspective, like I really wanna back this person, and they'll have other leaders on their team saying, Are you sure? Like, and if it goes wrong, you're gonna have egg on your face. You know and so they've got this tension inside. And what we're trying to encourage is to say to people, Don't prejudge that this is this is one of the whole problems. and that's diminishing the amount of inclusion and diversity that we're seeing because people just go with the familiar with what they feel familiar with and they're not taking those risks and not providing the opportunities and support. But it can be tough when you've got all your colleagues then questioning and you're scared. So what was that experience for you when you had to actually make that dis that decision to go with it? And go in the face of everyone warning you or questioning you, tell us about that experience and that other leaders might have the courage to do the same.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [29:46]
To own it, it was my it was my call. So if it if it failed, I was going to rise and fall on my sword, regardless of what may have happened. And I think I had just gotten to a stage, I don't know if this is good or bad, in my career anyway, where there was a level of stubbornness that actually existed to say, you I've I fought really hard to actually get to this place without belaboring the point. So it's technology is very male-dominated. I hate to say this as a woman, but it's actually true. So there was a lot of things I would have I had to fight through in any event. I was sitting across a table which was very white, very Africa, and as a black girl, the youngest person there as well. So I had fought hard to find my voice in these spaces like over the years. So I was already at a place where I had found my voice. And as someone who had to fight hard for that space and voice, I was already quite comfortable advocating for other people to actually get a seat at the table who were different.
**Mahendra Beharie** [30:45]
Most successful businesses are grown and individuals are grown through adverse conditions. They either suffered something horrific in their life that forced them to say, I want to now give back. And that has created brilliant companies and brilliant people to say, I never want other people to go through that. And that to me is a power, but we shouldn't be waiting for something so dramatic to change in our lives in order for us to excel at what we passionate about. This is a huge bugbear and I have to confess I over index on it. happens in the black community associating somebody's capability and intelligence with their accent. My god. When you are sitting I overindexed on it because I'm quite conscious that this might be a kid who went to a public school in the township. And their accents, because they didn't go to a model school and all that stuff. Immediately you got a panel who's just assuming, because somebody can speak with a twin from a private school. that they are smarter and they've got the extra edge. Like I experienced it when we have our intake of our graduate programme. And to see you've got absolutely no idea about even how this kid, like Lou, their mother might have been a domestic servant and they've got brothers who, this is their first job and even if he's just doing the internship, he's got to be taking care of. what they have to be to be in this office. You've got no clue. And because they don't speak with the accent, you think they are not as smart as somebody who've just gone to your private school. So the accent thing in the best community to be denoting smartness and intelligence. is, yeah, it is an spoken thing that really wraps me the wrong way. And I even hear it in people on radio. It's like, you can see you've got the dig because of your tone, but what you're talking about,
**Ivan Moroke** [32:53]
You're speaking nonsense. It's just your twang. Sorry, I get worked up by this B-shit.
**Mahendra Beharie** [33:02]
It's a big boobie!
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [33:04]
This smaller one.
**Gilan Gork** [33:05]
Yeah, it's such a good point. And I think that it's also whether it's somebody's accent or the way that somebody looks, or sometimes you go into a into a creative space and somebody doesn't look creative enough, or sometimes you go into like a finance space and someone looks too creative. and it's like what w if we just exp ex extend what you've said there around accent to any difference, I suppose. Yes, how How have you been able to pick up and navigate that tension in yourself when perhaps somebody comes across with a difference that you find yourself pre evaluating or pre prejudging? how how would how do you navigate that as a leader? This is a question for for all of you, maybe as a closing question that other leaders can can maybe learn from or maybe just even realise that they're not alone and that it's something we need to collectively work on. What what are your experiences around?
**Ivan Moroke** [34:01]
Personally, closing, the hard way. I've learned the hard way by having lost out. When I've made an addition about somebody and I see them flourishing somewhere and it has been from Ross, I've said like, ooh, I should not have. All of it has been like me to say, I'm gonna be more curious. I'm genuinely going to be curious and interested and see beyond what I'm seeing. And it's not easy, but I've learned the hard way. And now over time, it's a bit more natural, but it wasn't easy, but I paid the price of just saying because of your race, because of your, what your gender for whatever issue it is, I've learned the hard way to say is like, yeah, all our blood is red. As simple as that. think for me, it's that you need to be comfortable with the uncomfortable.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [34:50]
No.
**Mahendra Beharie** [34:57]
And that resonates with me saying that we're going to be put into different circumstances that's going to challenge you in different ways. Find that level of comfort that you're able to overcome it. Learn and take the best from people that you're around. Don't look for the faults. Everyone has them. If you focus on the faults, you're never going to be able to see the good.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [35:22]
My my closing remarks would be like at the end of pressure leadership is really less about having all the answers, but more about staying human enough to hold the questions with courage. And on being able to ask those questions and being comfortable to sometimes be the lone voice in the room. when you believe something with conviction. and also a very weird thing I'm gonna say is. When something no longer resonates with your values, do you have the courage to actually walk away? The courage of conviction to do what's right to people is so important when you are a leader. I don't think we should abuse it ever, because you don't know what people are going through. And just that one word of kindness could shift someone's perspective in terms of ending their life or believing that they deserve to give themselves another shot. And we actually don't have an appreciation of just how much kindness can save lives.
**Gilan Gork** [36:25]
As I once heard, kindfulness. Mindfulness but with a K. ki kindfulness, knowing that we're all just trying our best. to your point, Nomonde, we're we're all human. We've got our conditioning and we're trying to transcend that conditioning, but the conditioning is there. And but the fact that we're aware of it and we can see it play out like actors on a on a stage, we can then realise that's not us. It's just a it's just a conditioning and we're the ones observing it. I always end off every round table with this one question, which is what is one thing? It could be a mindset habit, a strategy that has most improved your leadership effectiveness. Just like a one line answer of what that would be. Whoever wants to go first will popcorn it.
**Ivan Moroke** [37:11]
There's a quote, you might know it, all of that, when somebody points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger. I've learned the hard way about, I must not stop learning from, because who is delivering it? I've learned some of the best leadership thing from people I don't like.
**Ivan Moroke** [37:40]
Yeah. So because I was focusing on the messenger, that's one I've lost out many things because I only listen to people I respect, I like, wisdom come wrapped up in many of the times in a way, in a package that you're not expecting.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [38:00]
My well, also quote that I to whom much is given, much is required. and to also just approach leadership with a lens of saying, and I even spoke about this earlier, leadership is a privilege, you are serving. It isn't about you being at the top, if anything, as a leader, you are holding everything up. Yeah. So you are actually at the bottom. You are the one who must be checking what everybody actually requires. And if there's moments where you are serving tea, you serve that tea so your people can extrapolate the best out of what they actually need to do. Sometimes you lead from the front and sometimes you lead from the back. But leadership is not being about me being on top. It's me holding people up and making sure that they can rise.
**Mahendra Beharie** [38:45]
Think for me, it would be paid forward. It's something that I love by saying, give people an opportunity in order for them to showcase the talent that they have. Because I don't want to put them in a box and then tell them to be creative. I prefer to give people the opportunity to be their true, authentic self. And if we paid forward and give people that opportunity, I think that we'll see a lot more been a cheat.
**Gilan Gork** [39:15]
Thank you so much to the three of you. we were here to talk about staying human at the edge of pressure and I have just absolutely loved this conversation. I definitely feel like I'm more equipped, more empowered. I know that everyone listening and watching this is gonna walk away. just being in community with each other, that we can support each other leading at the edge of pressure with that with that humanity. So thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for
**Ivan Moroke** [39:44]
Thank you for the procto! Thank you!
**Gilan Gork** [39:46]
Yeah.
**Nomonde White-Ndlovu** [39:48]
I've had the blessed morning. Thank you so much for the privilege of the part. My goodness.
**Gilan Gork** [39:54]
It has been a privilege being with you guys, so thank you so much. If this conversation landed with you, I want to leave you with one final thought before we close. The world leaders are operating in right now is genuinely more complex, more unpredictable, and more demanding than it's ever been. And the cruel irony of that is that the more pressure you're under, the more your perception naturally narrows. Right at the moment, usually when you most need to see clearly, to see the full picture. To notice what's actually happening in the room or in the conversation or even in yourself, and to lead from a wide, grounded, human place rather than from a compressed reactive one. That capacity to stay wide and see clearly under real pressure is not a given, but it is trainable, and that's the entire purpose of the PEAK Practice Programme. I built it over two decades of working with leaders in some of the world's most demanding environments, and the foundation is Pretty simple. You know, in any high pressure moment, what limits your performance isn't usually your skill or your experience. It's the mental and emotional noise that pressure creates. Automatic reactions, narrowed thinking, the pool sometimes to protect how you're seen or even how you see yourself that quietly shrinks what you're able to access in the moment. The programme gives you a short, repeatable daily practice to clear that noise and expand your capacity so that. You can see more and think more clearly, and also lead with the ease and presence that actually produces results. It's 14 days of guided practice, around 10 to 15 minutes a day, and it's designed for busy leaders in real conditions, not just ideal ones. And leaders who complete it consistently describe not just a better understanding of themselves, but a felt expansion, a genuine sense of more clarity, more ease. And more of themselves available when it counts most. So if you're curious, I encourage you to try it. Head to peakawake.com. I'll also put that address in the show notes. And if this episode was useful, please subscribe wherever you listen and take a moment to leave a rating or a comment. It sounds like a small thing, but it's genuinely how the platforms describe which shows to put in front of more people. And so if this conversation is the kind that more leaders need to hear.
**Gilan Gork** [42:18]
That really is the simplest way to help to make that happen. So thank you for listening to Leading Awake. I enjoyed this time with you and I'll see you in the next episode.