How ReelFlow turns website visitors into buyers with authentic video

B2B buyers want control, clarity, and human connection.

In this episode, Chris Nelson talks with ReelFlow co-founder Chris Wickson about transforming static, text-heavy websites into interactive, buyer-led experiences using short, authentic video.

Chris shares his founder journey (two exits), the shift in B2B buying behaviour, and why engagement metrics like lower bounce and longer sessions matter more than chasing form-fills.

We dive into smart use cases, homepages, pricing pages, and campaign landing pages and how Real Flow approaches AI avatars with transparency and ethics.

We finish with event strategy and SaaStock Europe plans.

If you market or sell B2B, this is your playbook for building trust at scale.


Connect with Chris on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-wickson/

ReelFlow on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/company/reelflow/

ReelFlow's Website
https://reelflow.com



Hosted by Chris Nelson, Founder of Human Video

Connect with Chris on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-nelson-human-video/

Follow Human Video on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/company/human-video/


Video Podcast Remotely Developed, Produced, Edited & Distributed by Human Video
https://www.human.video

• (00:00) - Welcome to Human Marketing & guest intro
• (01:33) - Chris Wickson’s founder journey and two exits
• (03:54) - What is Real Flow? The B2B buyer shift it solves
• (07:00) - Buyer-enablement vision and early traction on B2B sites
• (10:20) - Smart placements: homepage concierge, pricing help, and campaign landing pages
• (15:18) - Breaking through the noise with personalized video outreach
• (16:17) - The metrics that move: lower bounce, deeper sessions, and rethinking conversion
• (20:26) - Avatars in Real Flow: why add AI and how it’s used
• (30:25) - Ethics & transparency: labelling AI-assisted videos
• (33:11) - From chatbots to conversational AI: answering buyer questions in real time
• (37:25) - Events are back: in-person strategy and SaaStock plans
• (41:59) - Wrap-up and where to learn more about Real Flow

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Nelson

Founder of Human Video

What is Human Marketing?

Chris Nelson, Founder of Human Video, chats weekly to global marketing leaders about how, in an age of AI, we can humanize B2B marketing.

Even in the B2B marketing world 'people buy from people' and including real authentic human content in your strategy has never been more important.

Topics discussed include, founder-led branding, thought leadership, social proof, humanizing your brand, marketing to the the 95% and how to get your audience to know, like and trust you.

Welcome to Human Marketing, a weekly podcast for B2B marketers. Unpacking how brands can stay authentic, demonstrate authority, and build trust as AI floods or feeds with content. I'm Chris Nelson, founder of Human Video. We remotely produce podcasts and other video content with real humans and just the right amount of soul. Today I have two times exit founder and co-founder now of Real Flow. Chris Wickson, welcome to the Human Marketing Podcast. Chris. Good morning

Chris. Yeah,

Thanks for having me on. There's a lot of chrises happening here. I was looking back, Chris, at how it all started, how we got to know each other and I think I've traced it back in January To me commenting on a post you did might've been like a preview of your website or something like that, and it was just the whole concept of what you do really caught my eye and you actually reached out to me and connected with me and it wasn't very long after that we're like, look, wait, there's a lot going on here. Really useful connections. Let's have a call. We have the best call. Just diving into the world of human video, I guess in my side of things, just as a bit of a queue up, could you tell me a little bit about that? I guess two times exited kind of quick story but also then just queue up real flow for me and tell the audience, say I guess what you're doing and what you're building.

Yeah, absolutely. So my startup journey began back at university many years ago now. We started with a job board in the early career space for students and that business thankfully took off and developed nicely here in the uk offering options for school leaders, university students, graduates, and then within that business we stumbled into the weird and wonderful world of B2B SaaS. In around 2014, we developed a mobile app that we spun out as a separate company and that app, the business was called a crew and we developed a event lead capture solution for B 2D events. So we started working with a lot of B2B marketing teams, had a really great run of that business. We raised a little bit of funding and we were scaling nicely and we were very fortunate to get acquired in 2019 year before COVID by an American marketing technology company called Integrate.
So we jumped off the accrued journey and into the integrate journey and our team became part of Integrate, which was and is a marketing technology platform. So again, working with mid-market enterprise marketers across the whole suite of B2B marketing and we as part of the acquisitions journey, my co-founder Andy and I, we did our earnout. We were there for three years on the leadership team as that business scaled and then we left there in 2022, took a bit of time out, but we both knew we wanted to start something again. At some point we felt like we'd still got enough years left on the clock to go again. We'd learned a huge amount on both those journeys. So last year we started working on what turned into real flow, which we are going to dive into and talk more about. But yeah, that's kind of the backstory that takes us up to real flow. I love it.

Yeah, so I guess queing that up perfectly and seeing, I guess the connection with what I'm doing, just tell people a little bit about what Real Flow is and I guess the problem maybe that you saw that you're solving and then just a little bit I guess about how it's going so far.

Yeah, definitely. So a very high level real flow is an interactive video product for B2B websites and landing pages. In terms of the background that led us up to building it and I guess the problems we're trying to solve, we just felt there was a few things going on right now. The first one is this ever changing B2B buyer landscape we're operating in, this was already happening before ai, but it's just been accelerated and by that I mean certainly in mid-market enterprise, more buyers involved than ever before and a buying committee requiring more touchpoints. Those buyer journeys that I think as marketers we perhaps felt were these nice linear funnels is clearly not the reality. It's a spaghetti mix of touchpoints and journeys and jumps all over the place. It's complex and it's hard and what we also know is buyers are going further and further into their journey to a purchase before engaging with vendors than ever before.
They want self-guided experiences, they want to build their own picture, learn along their own journey, and I think we're also the data supports that by the time a buyer does engage with a vendor, they've kind of already made their decision or they've narrowed it down to two or three vendors, whereas maybe five, 10 years ago buyers would've been happy to speak to 10 vendors. They're now much more pointed. So I think there's a swing back towards the importance of brand and trust and authenticity and all these playing the long game when it comes to the B2B marketing. So we've got this interesting landscape and then a bit closer to that, the rise of video. We're all, as you know, better the night day, all consuming more video than ever before, particularly in short form formats, particularly on social LinkedIn, really pushing talking head content on their channel.
So we got Rise video and then the final scene setter is just I guess our perspective on B2B websites today. We're still building them like we did 10 years ago. We have this particularly in B2B Tech, but B2B SaaS. There's this tried and I won't say trusted formula, but there's this complex text heavy static website experiences. SEO forced us all to pack our websites full of content, but I think at the detriment of the visitor experience and I just can't believe we're still going to be building websites like this in the next two, three years with everything that's going on. So those three things brought us together to start working on Real Flow and I say very simply in its primary format is an overlay video player that sits on top of existing websites or webpages with that kind of short form talking head content that we're also familiar with on social channels and the player is interactive.
So it's all about, I view real flow really as not necessarily a video products but a buyer enablement tool. Can we help you give your buyers, your visitors a better experience on your site, navigate more deeply, get to the right information they're looking for answer questions and do so through video. And I guess the byproduct of that is brand humanization, building trust, familiarity. So yeah, that's what we're building and we're still early days, but we're live on around 30 B2B websites now B2B is the common thread. Beyond that, we've got a weird and wonderful mix of types of companies using it from solopreneur startups to pilots with some pretty big mid-market enterprise type companies in lots of different use cases, but we're making good progress and we're pretty excited about the journey ahead.

Oh man, you kind of got me super excited about it all over again. When I first saw it, Chris, it immediately upped out on me. As I say, just all the same things that you said, all the words there that I say every day in terms of the authenticity of the trust building aspect, humanising of a brand. We live in a world now, there's such a big movement of, as you say, of talking heads out there in terms of LinkedIn content. I see a big movement and just getting more people from a company involved in putting content out and I always advocated for having humans on your website. It shouldn't just be in this day and age in terms of trust. Anyone can just throw up a website with stock photography and whatever. It's terrifying you did in seconds probably now, but if you actually show your real human beings and the ultimate extension of that is your real human beings on video being themselves, that's something I always advocated for.
So when I saw I guess the implementation of your product is putting someone front and centre above the fold usually, and actually the other element that leapt out to me was the sort of chatbot almost starting with a human appearing in the bottom corner of every page or just being there available and obviously then part of the product is these flows of decisions of asking questions and maybe going in a different direction. Somebody pops up for 20 seconds, welcome somebody then gives them options. Can I take you this direction? Are you're looking for this? Yeah, I love the whole thing and it's just another application of exactly what I'm trying to put out into the world and what we're doing and for the very same reasons everything you talked about the bar journey. So I'd love you to tell me a little bit more about, one thing I've kind of picked up even from your LinkedIn content is like the hero section, the homepage is one amazing application of it, but I feel like there's all these other probably less thought of applications like guiding someone through a pricing page or other things. In what ways have you seen already your clients using the flu aspect of it I guess in a really interesting way and different ways of humanising the website experience?

So as you alluded to there, the homepage is the obvious starting point and I think in most cases the objective on that homepage is really to get the vista off the homepage as quick as possible. I've worked on countless marketing website designs over the last two decades and homepage is always the hardest, right? Particularly in mid-market and enterprise. If you are selling products and services to a wide range of audiences, trying to build this one size fits all homepage is really tough. So people are using real flow very effectively to grab attention on the homepage and then quickly get people off the homepage and that next level deeper into the site where actually the content is much more relevant for them. And then within the website, I mean we're seeing people really any page on the site where you feel like a 30, 40, 50 second video of someone explaining a concept, a feature, the product can either compliment the written text content on the page or in some cases replace it.
Quite often have people describe real flow as feeling like a bit of a concierge service around the website or I'm going to date myself now remember Clippy on in word clippy was ahead of his time, but that idea that you've got a actual companion that's there you can click on at any point. There isn't a crappy chat bot with canned responses and we'll maybe come on to the conversational AI piece. No, but right now, yeah, but prerecorded natural sounding videos and you said there like pricing page, great example. We've got some really good use cases of customers where you would be in a meeting and the prospect says, how does the pricing work? And just explaining it like you would in normal language pricing pages can be confusing. Like I say anywhere where there's sort of complex use cases, FAQs, contact us page book a demo just like explaining here's what happens next if you fill in this form, particularly if you're a smaller business and you are the rep that the prospect is going to speak to, I quite often get that with people I speak to that they're like, oh, I've just been on the site and I feel like I was just sort of talking to you.
And then the only other one I could mention is we're seeing an increasing use of real flow on landing pages as part of campaigns, so maybe adjacent to the main marketing website, whether that's running paid campaigns to specific landing pages events is proven to be very popular for event registration, account-based landing pages. If you're sending personalised landing pages to prospects, adding video to those pages and because of the nature of the product in its primary form is that the overlay, whilst we do have an embedded version, the overlay is so easy to add to an existing page, you don't have to get web developers involved to redesign pages. It is really better to compliment. So yeah, really one of the exciting things but also one of the challenges we have is so versatile. You could in theory use it on any page, on any site, which is a good thing but also not we are trying to be really focused on this is primarily a B2B buyer product, not consumer product or rather people asking could I use real flow inside my product for onboarding guiding people, which you could, but we're trying to stay pretty focused on this B2B

Maybe in the two B piece and there is, there's so many other options. I love the landing page application. I really love the IBM application. I've even recently created a whole series of videos with AEs doing really personalised videos in IBM campaigns and it feels like so such a great thing to do to take five minutes and go speaking directly to a potential audience in a particular and actually making, not just calling them out but making it really relevant to their story or their requirement. It

Kind of feels like it's the only way to break through the noise now I think I was, listen is one your other podcasts with Andy Hill I think and just you talked about it then everybody's inboxes are swamped. I'm not saying email doesn't work, but my god it's hard to break through with text-based emails. Now LinkedIn messaging is bombarded, so what can you do that's unique and different and actually get someone's attention? Video is such a great way of doing that. If someone drops a video in your LinkedIn inbox, you're going to play that video and even better if it starts with, Hey Chris, this is actually, I've put this video together for you and the same I think can apply on websites and that next click as you take them into that journey.

A hundred percent. Yeah, I love the application of video dms. It takes a little bit of effort but gosh, what an impression that, what a first impression that makes on someone, especially if I would argue, especially if it isn't automated, you can automate that now and the automation's got quite good as well, but I just feel like a really authentic, I've just been on your website just checking it out, just demonstrating a little bit of effort I just think stands out. No, I'm really intrigued. Obviously you've been rolling this out for maybe the past six months to a year. You must have clients that have measured things before, the introduction of real flow and measure after. What have you actually seen in terms of improvements of leads captured or even just customer experience has been measurable for any of your clients?

So we try and really focus primarily on engagement metrics. We'll come onto conversion in a sec, but so what we very quickly see pretty much across the board is bounce rate reduces. There's something quite intriguing because not many websites are using this type of technology yet and I think there's a bit of intrigue about, you see this sort of animated talking head in the bottom corner. People are like, well I don't think this is a chat bot, is this thing going to start talking to me? So we see bounce rate go down pretty much across the board and then the knock on effect of that we see pretty much unanimously increase in depth at length of visit. Can we keep visitors on your site for longer? Can we get them deeper into these flows, get them deeper into your site, viewing more pages. So those are the three that we see quite quickly.
And then anecdotally, I think most of our customers, often when I catch up with 'em they're like, ah, it comes up in conversation quite a bit with our prospects as well. They have to mention, like I said, I feel like I've already heard from you or that was quite cool getting the founder to explain something to me on the pricing page. So those are the easy metrics that we measure. The conversion one is a really interesting topic on one side I really advocating that I think in B2B, unless you are selling a product-led cheap single buyer solution where it really is a sort of all about a bit more like a consumer purchase, optimising the basket, getting people to get through and sign up and pay for the rest of us selling anything more complex mid-market scale up enterprise. I just think so many marketers have fallen into the conversion trap as I call it, where you're obsessing over conversion metrics on individual pages.
When I'm like the people on your site today, 99% of them are not there to fill in a form. They're there doing their research, they're there building up their picture and profile people on our site today is probably next year's customers. So whilst I'm not trying to ignore conversion and clearly it is important, I just believe really strongly that by improving the visitor experience provided you're getting the right type of people to your site, if you can give them a better experience, build that trust, build that connection, help them where they're on your site for 30 seconds or 30 minutes by the time they leave, are they more informed? Have they got an answer to a question they're looking for? Have they built some trust and that sort of brand affinity and I think real flow just helps rise the tide of conversion. Maybe they'll reply to that email next time, maybe they'll answer that cold call. Maybe they'll be an inbound in six months time because they've made that mental note that this is a product we'd like to look at. So I really advocate to sort of shift the mindset away from this kind of MQL dollars in the top dollars at the bottom, it's just broken. That model doesn't work anymore. I don't think

A thousand percent agree and I talk a lot about the 95% of your audience that aren't in market and I feel like a human and indeed the example of a founder appearing and guiding someone through the process, it just really helps with that kind of memory that when somebody is in market, you're the person they're going to think of first. Those decisions will already have been massively influenced by that kind of human connection, the trust that will have been built up. I love all of that. Thanks Chris. You mentioned earlier, let's chat about ai. I remember really distinctly, and you probably laugh when I say this, we had another call after that first call, there was a moment in it, you were in a WeWork or something and you're like, things are going really well. We've added this whole layer of AI avatars into the product and I'm convinced I have no poker face at all, just my face dropped like oh no, the humanity has been stripped out of this wonderful product.
I had this kind of slightly ridiculous probably reaction to it and we ended up having a bit of a great discussion about the ways in which that can be really beneficial. Tell me a little bit about that because obviously you've already said that the big benefit is this authentic human appearing and that's really powerful. How are you seeing the application of particularly AI avatar technology? I'm really interested in which to explain is there were sort of artificial taking somebody often maybe be a founder recording a bit of content with them and then letting AI replicate that, maybe just driving tech text to video really tell me how that has gone about, I guess why you introduced that and how that's been used in a positive way.

Yeah, so I mean there's a lot to unpack here and we do have this sort of paradox emerging, this conflicting view. So we start with the technical side of it. There are these insanely well-funded players building this infrastructure layer for both voice and video people like 11 labs, hey Gen Synthesia, Google working on their own models. So technically it is wild how good this stuff is getting even in the last, I actually think over the summer we crossed the threshold of it moving from a little bit janky and a bit like, okay, it's interesting but you can come still tell too some of them it's getting so good. So the tech is moving fast and is only going in one direction and I think there is a spectrum here we're talking about on one end, and this is not what I advocate for, although you can definitely see the applications on one end there's I'm going to go and browse a library of heads and I'm going to go right, I like the look of that person and I'm going to find a voice that I like and I'm going to match those two up and use that.
And I think where in use cases where the viewer to some extent doesn't care who's delivering the message, they just prefer to consume in video and audio over text, you can see tonnes of applications for that customer support, documentation, onboarding. I think that's where that works really well on the marketing website to all the points we're talking about where trust and authenticity is a secret weapon in B2B and is so important. This is where it just gets really interesting because the tech is getting so good, so busy execs, founders haven't got the time to, as you and I both know, whilst the barrier's never been lower to create video content, it is still a lift. You've still got to get the setup right, get the audio right, think about what you want to say, do a few takes post-production, get it edited, all those things a lot better than I do and now there's this sort of carrot dangling of like, well I can in 30 seconds generate a video of me saying what I want it to say

Or my team can without me even needing to be involved.

Exactly. Yeah. We've got one customer now where basically they just got the CEO in for five minutes and we're just like, we're just going to get your avatar trained up. Now what I think is working really well and we've got some customers doing this, is still recording the audio naturally, this is genuinely me speaking, it's my voice and then overlaying that audio onto the prerecorded video and the lip sync technology, I say it's getting so good. So there's a massive time save and efficiency play and the ability to update content regularly and every time you publish a new page or a new update or article, why can't you quickly add a video onto that? But coming back to this paradox we've got, it is still AI assisted, AI generated content in some cases. So yeah, I think it is going to be a really interesting next two or three years as this technology continues to improve and yeah, I don't quite know where we're going to go with it if I'm completely honest.
I'm still kind of on the fence and you still obviously today, I don't think you can beat naturally recorded conversations like this that's undeniable. But I say just the ease of which he can now create this content is there and it's accessible. As my co-founder Andy keeps saying it's the worst and the most expensive it's ever going to be today and it's already pretty damn good and it's getting increasingly expensive. There's a bit of a race to the bottom with these models from a cost perspective as well. So yeah, I dunno, what are your thoughts?

No, I have so many thoughts. I mean as the founder of a company called Human Video, Chris, it is, and the entire premise of my company is the creation of authentic content with real people I guess. And in saying that, I always preface this so that I'm not a lot, I use AI every day in lots of different ways and I actually see, I've been trying to recognise, especially recently, really positive uses of AI avatars even I often cite the example of translating videos into multiple languages and really taking one piece of content and being able to serve that up with a perfect accent and perfect lip sync in other regionalizing massively content including a company I use wia, they have an amazing option for this and they have 20 versions of Arabic. It's just amazing the depth and the accuracy I guess without, so that's one really good example of it.
But yeah, it's getting really, really good. I totally acknowledge and see that I still feel like it's absolutely soulless. I think no matter how perfect speech is and no matter how perfect it looks, there's just something about it always that it's just like, oh, this isn't real, this isn't that person. And even to the extent where it makes it slightly odd to consume, I think there's a flatness to it no matter what intonation and copied mannerisms are put in. It's just always slightly odd and maybe that won't be the case in the future, but I had a really interesting discussion just last week with somebody who posted the very latest version and it was somebody who had said they'd spent a year creating a course that was a paid course and that just used AI to create the entire video course content of two hours or whatever and had this really healthy discussion with them in their comments.
I was like, I'm quite sure people, especially when they're paying, they'd much rather hear from you and hear you tell your stories with life and energy and enthusiasm rather than just an AI script recited. And I totally agree that there are certain, Synthesia is a really great example. Synthesia was created to generate internal educational content for large organisations that was there, that was the reason they existed. It didn't matter three years ago that it was slightly clunky, but you could take thousands of pages of content and create just onboarding stuff and educational stuff where only internal audiences were going to see it. That just doesn't matter. It's a totally acceptable and applicable application of it, but I just feel like anything particularly in sales I think, or marketing, I think your content that you put out there, I think the person that appears on the front of your website, even for that, you mentioned it earlier, that option of you see the real people and then those are the people.
Maybe the example of the AEs or even just a founder leading something like that is that connection of the real person that they get to know. They talk about getting to know and no one's going to like the fake person. And I really like your example, it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently of someone's real speech and applying that to something. I think of it as like a Pixar movie. I know Tom Hanks is real acting and then just having this skeleton put over it and those same expressions actually been taken on everything and presenting at a different way. I see that it's so easy to do that now. You can just sit as we are now and I could become a dinosaur or a spaceman or whatever. That's really interesting application. But I think something in the sales side, and I think there's a real other interesting story of the ethics of this as well. If you're in a world where I can take any video of somebody without their permission and use their likeness to recreate video of anything, I think that's a tricky world to be and that used to be a really difficult deep faking exercise that is now can be done with extremities unless I see it every day on my LinkedIn feed.

Yeah, there is definitely a dark side to that. I mean I think we're trying to be really deliberate in the product where people are using their avatar. We call it within real pride product, we call it your video standin, where people are using that and we are putting a stamp on these videos. Is this a real person, a truly creative video? Has this been

Edited

With ai? We've kind of come up with a bit of a menu card of the different shades of let's say at one end, AI avatar, a person doesn't exist with a fictional voice. So

You letting the audience audience know that what they're saying, I really like that

And I think we really want to lean into that. This isn't about tricking audiences or to all the points we've been tricking people doesn't make them all to buy from you. Exactly. Ever. Yeah, it's got to be about, I think with everything with AI right now, ultimately it's like an efficiency plan and enabler, but there has to be this sweet spot of the output's got to be good, the context's got to be good, it's got to sound to look good, particularly in these B2B use cases as we're talking about. So yeah, I mean I just think say the tech is showing no signs of slowing down, so it is just going to be really interesting to see where we get to in the next year or two an argument for it. It's a bit like if we're in a big enterprise, the PR team have written the statement from the CEO and she or he has just read that out or said it. It's not their words, they've just the vehicle for it. And you can kind of say, well, the video gets so good, it's almost the marketing team have written the content and it's just the CEO, the founders, the vehicle to

Say it. I would always argue that's just bad too. Even an example, I see a lot on here a lot. We create customer testimonial videos. It's one of the things where you get just this real, not just internally, but our client's customers being really authentically evangelical about their experience. But the worst version of that I always see is when a marketing department has just written something that they could have said and sent an email and saying, is it okay if we post this as a testimonial? And someone goes, yeah, sure. It's the least authentic thing ever. And the more you do that, the less actual effective social proof that becomes. That's a whole other thing. And if you end up doing that more and more, I just think the whole thing becomes less effective and doesn't bring the trust that is actually really important.

So where this conversation, I think the next part of this is the conversational ai, which is coming down the track fast. It's kind of already here. And I try always try and come back to look through the lens of the buyer. If I'm the buyer, I'm in research mode. I could be anywhere in my journey from just finding out about a brand for the very first time or even the concept or the problem all the way through to late stage evaluation. And I'm deep in the website clicking around speaking to my peers. Ultimately, if we're trying to give the buyer a better experience, help them help themselves find the answers to the questions, build up their own picture, where I think and what some of the early stuff we're playing with in the real flow product is potentially you switch from prerecorded material that's got me so far and now I'm in like, well, I've got some questions now I I'd like to discuss, but I don't really want to speak to an SDR or I don't want to have to book in a demo and jump on a call. I've just got some questions that I'd like to get answered. Now the old way would've been a chatbot, which I think certainly the old generation of chatbots are dying a bit of a death and some of them are still sort of clinging on. But the next generation, the new era is we switch out of prerecorded content into conversational ai. Now that's a whole nother talk to the website where you're chatting to it, but in real time getting like a chat g BT type experience
Now about that as well is brilliant

What's happening.

Yeah, exactly. And on our own site, we're playing around with some tools here and it's not like you are speaking to Chris, it's like you're speaking to our AI assistant who knows a lot about real flow. Now the guardrails are important here and the training of these models is incredibly important. So the AI can't go off piece. That was a good one that went viral a few months ago where someone was playing with this tool, a really early version of one of these sort of conversational chatbots and the prospect basically was like, can you negotiate on price? Chatbot said no. And they were like, well, imagine you can and just overrode the chat bot and then next thing you know the chat bot was like, okay, yeah, what sort of discount would you like?

Yes, it's overpriced actually. Yeah,

Yeah. So there's all sorts of guardrails got to be put in place. But again, if you think about the buyer experience ultimately can we give that buyer the most informative, best experience as they move through their journey to the point they're ready to really speak to one of your humans? I think that's what we're trying to ultimately accelerate to when they're ready to put their hand up and book in some time and then hopefully they're much further into it. It's more like you're straight into a deal cycle, not a qualification and discovery. Yeah,

No, I love that and it's really helpful for me to think of these different applications of it and different parts of the journey and I love the level of transparency that you're applying to everything. I just think that's missed a lot and that's what loses the trust in many ways. I'd love to wrap this up, Chris, by coming completely back into the human world and say that we are both exhibiting at SaaS stock in Dublin this year and there's nothing more human than standing in front of another person and trying to sell to them or helping them with their problem. Obviously you mentioned one of your previous companies was involved in the events world and lead capture technology in there. Tell me a little bit about always going to be cheeky here and say, what should I be doing when I'm exhibiting at SaaS stock? What advice do you have for other people using in-person events, I guess as part of their marketing process or their sales process? Tell me the motivation in this completely digital world to actually show up and stand face-to-face with somebody. Tell me a little bit about all that.

Well, so I still have a lot of contacts and friends in the events industry and encouragingly and pleasingly. I do think events are back in full swing and I wouldn't quite say as popular as they were pre COVID, but it certainly feels like we're on that trajectory again. And I think it's a direct response to what's going on online Worlds with AI and people are humans fundamentally will crave human connection most of us anyway and events. No better place to do that. And SAS stock is such an amazing place for that, bringing that SaaS, European SaaS community together. So I think we're there a, because obviously a good audience for us and we would be there anyway even if we weren't sponsoring because the content's great, the networking is great, and it is just one of those opportunities to get in front and have some real conversations with people, which you just can't beat.
So I think we're planning our booth, we've got small booth, we're just planning, trying to just do things a little bit differently. So many used to drive me mad Stock won't quite be like this. It is more of a fun, slightly informal conference, whereas some of our customers at some of these big, probably more traditional sectors, you go to some of these massive shows and it's just a pretty soulless bunch of guys and girls in Suits sat behind the booth on their laptops, on their phones. There's nothing inviting about me coming over there. Whereas at SAS stock, I think it is, everybody's spirits are high. It's a great opportunity to go and have a bunch of conversations with people. Everyone's there for the same reasons. So that's what I would just be encouraging our team to do. Just speak to as many people as possible. And we've got a very visual product and we're actually live on the SAS Stock Europe website as well. So most people, if they've gone on the site, might seen Alex, the founder of SAS stock in the bottom corner and maybe interacted with the product. So that'll be a good talking point for us.

That's amazing. No, I'm super excited. It's been a very long time, probably 20 years since I exhibited anything and yeah, I bet my stand smaller than your stand, Chris. It's the world's smallest stand I have. It appears. But I was really, it sits me down to the ground, just I looked at the whole thing. It was quite a long time ago actually that I committed to it and I just thought, I want to just talk to people. I want to be in front of other people. I want to chat about what we're doing. I want to hear their problems. I want to get their human reaction to, I guess the story that I'm telling, all the things that we've just talked about. I just want to have those conversations for two days.

I'm sure you'll have plenty of those. Yeah, it is a great event for that. Everybody's very open and there to have conversations, so I'm sure you'll have a lot, there'll be lots of, it does get a great range of audiences as well from solo founders just starting out to Csuite execs at much bigger SaaS companies and everything in between. So it'll be a good couple of days. Good fun couple of days. No, it's great.

It'd be great to meet you in person as well. And it's just on the road for me. I'm in Belfast, so it felt like a no-brainer. I'm really looking forward to Yeah, and I've seen that rise in events in lots of different ways. I've heard a lot that people are, especially in a remote, fully remote or distributed world, people are craving getting together even as business dinners and things like that, those sort of smaller events and get togethers. I'm involved in the marketing meetup as well with Joe Glover, and that's just that concept of coming together is I think going to be more and more important in a increasingly virtual world. I think

It's actually been a good sector or use case for us. We've got quite a few event organisers using Real Phone now on their event websites. To your point, every event has a website, but they are very human experiences. So actually it's a great use case here. Bring in real flow onto an event website to talk about why you should register, why you should sponsor, what's new, what's going on. So we've got some quite interesting use cases on event sites right now. Awesome,

Awesome. Well look, there's been a fabulous chat, Chris, I really appreciate your time. Where can folks find out more, can connect with you and crucially find out more about Real Flow?

Yeah, sure. So real flow.com, it's REEL video real flow.com or look me up on LinkedIn. I'm trying to be more active on LinkedIn as most founders will testify. Other things often get in the way, but I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so you come find me there. And yeah, we'd love to chat to anybody listening. If it's just conversations like this or more, lemme know.

This has been awesome. Really appreciate your time. Thanks very much for joining me. Yeah, thanks having me on, Chris. It's been good fun.