The Smoke Trail S1 E37: John D'Attoma Helping Kids and Family Victims of Child Sexual Abuse

The Smoke Trail S1 Episode 37: John D'Attoma Helping Kids and Family Victims of Child Sexual Abuse

https://kidsaresacred.org/donate/ 

Guest Bio

John D’Attoma is a nonprofit founder and executive leader with decades of experience in entrepreneurship, executive management, and business development. Throughout his career, he has built and led organizations with an emphasis on strategic growth, operational efficiency, and strong leadership—experience he now brings directly into his nonprofit work. He is the co- founder of Sexually Abused Children’s Relief Endeavor (SACRED), the only nonprofit in the country providing immediate financial assistance to families after a child discloses sexual abuse. SACRED was born from personal experience, after John’s granddaughters were sexually abused by their father and his family faced an unexpected financial crisis. Working exclusively with accredited Child Advocacy Centers, SACRED provides 30 days of essential living expenses, with approvals made within hours and funds distributed within 24 hours. Since its founding, SACRED has helped more than 1600 children and 589 families, ensuring families can focus on healing without the added burden of financial instability.

Setting

Recorded in the transformative red rock landscape of Sedona, Arizona, evoking renewal and strength amid heavy topics. The serene environment contrasts with the episode's focus on trauma and healing, creating a supportive space for open dialogue on child advocacy.

Summary

In this heartfelt episode, Smoke interviews friend and SACRED co-founder John D’Attoma about the nonprofit's mission to provide immediate financial relief to families after child sexual abuse disclosure. John shares the origin story—sparked by his granddaughters' abuse by their father, leading to family crisis—and how SACRED fills a critical gap by covering 30 days of essentials within 24 hours via Child Advocacy Centers. They discuss the devastating impacts of abuse, the need for quick support, SACRED's growth (helping 1600+ children), and future expansion. Smoke reflects on his involvement, emphasizing empathy, awareness, and collective action to protect children and aid healing in turbulent times.

Learnings Healing After Abuse - John D’Attoma on SACRED's Mission

• Immediate Relief Model: Provide fast financial aid (within 24 hours) for essentials like rent and food, allowing families to prioritize healing over survival during crisis.
• Partner with Experts: Work exclusively with accredited Child Advocacy Centers for verification and distribution, ensuring aid reaches verified victims efficiently.
• Focus on Family Stability: Cover 30 days of living expenses to prevent added trauma from financial ruin, enabling focus on therapy and recovery.
• Raise Awareness Proactively: Educate communities on child abuse signs and resources; early intervention can prevent cycles of harm.
• Scale Through Empathy: Build nonprofits from personal experience—turn pain into purpose by mentoring and expanding to serve more families nationwide.

Universal Truths

• Trauma demands swift support: Immediate aid transforms crisis into healing, preventing financial burdens from compounding emotional pain.
• Empathy drives change: Personal experiences fuel impactful action; turning suffering into service creates lasting good for others.
• Children need protection: Abuse thrives in silence—awareness and resources break cycles, fostering safer communities.
• Healing is holistic: Address financial, emotional, and legal needs together; stability enables true recovery and resilience.
• Collective responsibility elevates: Society's role in child welfare is sacred—empathy and action from all create a world where victims thrive.

Examples

• Granddaughters' Disclosure: John's older granddaughter revealed abuse in a cab, leading to family crisis and SACRED's founding after financial hardships.
• Rapid Aid Process: SACRED approves funds in hours via CACs, distributing within 24 hours—e.g., covering rent to prevent eviction during investigations.
• Impact Stats: Helped 589 families and 1600+ children, focusing on essentials to allow therapy without added stress.
• Personal Motivation: John's liquor industry background shifted to nonprofit work, inspired by his family's ordeal to prevent similar suffering.
• Expansion Vision: From one state to nationwide, partnering with CACs and donors to scale aid and awareness.

Smoke Trail Threads

• Echoes Episode 29 on health and consciousness, linking trauma healing to financial stability for wholeness.
• Builds on Episode 31 (Tony Denison) by addressing recovery from abuse, emphasizing empathy and action in healing journeys.
• Connects to Episode 30 (Seth Streeter) on purpose-driven lives, showing how personal pain fuels nonprofit leadership.
• Ties to The Smoke Trail’s Guide to Raising Consciousness for Leaders sections on resilience and emotional processing, offering SACRED as a model for service.
• References solo questions from Episodes 1-15 on forgiveness and purpose, as pathways to turning trauma into impact.

What is The Smoke Trail?

The Smoke Trail, hosted by Smoke Wallin, is a journey into awakening consciousness, weaving authentic stories and deep discussions with inspiring guests to unlock high performance and perfect health. Each episode delves into spirituality, leadership, and transformation, offering tools to transcend trauma and find your bliss along the way. It’s a reflective space for achieving peak potential and inner peace in a distraction-filled world.

Smoke: 00:00

My next guest is my friend John D'Attoma. He's a nonprofit founder and executive leader with decades of experience in entrepreneurship, executive management, and business development. John is the cofounder of sexually abused children relief endeavor, SAKRID, the only nonprofit in the country providing immediate financial assistance to families after a child discloses sexual abuse. SAKRID was born from personal experience after John's granddaughters were sexually abused by their father and his family faced an unexpected financial crisis. Sacred provides thirty days of essential living expenses within hours and funds distributed within twenty four hours.

Smoke: 00:39

Since its founding, Sacred has helped more than 1,600 children and five eighty nine families ensuring families can focus on healing without the added burden of financial instability. John, welcome to the Smoke Trail.

John: 00:52

I'm excited. It'd be fun to talk to you.

Smoke: 00:56

Well, it's it's been a real privilege and pleasure to work with you for the past year or so, on Sacred and I thought we'd take an advantage, take advantage of this opportunity to kind of talk a little bit about, the origin of it, your why, you know, what what what motivated you and Carol to to create sacred, what it is so people can understand it. And then, know, we'll just we'll just see where it goes. But, you know, I was inspired by it when I heard about it. You and I have been friends way before this. We're all couple of old liquor guys from the industry, and we've crossed paths over the years in different business situations.

Smoke: 01:43

And and when I heard about what you guys had put together, I was like, wow. I I have to get involved. I have to help. And, you know, it's it's really amazing now that I'm on the inside and have been able to see the work from the inside, it's just it's just an incredible force for good. And and I I wanted to, you know, give you some time to, you know, tell tell the story.

Smoke: 02:06

Tell a little bit about what is sacred, and and then why'd you guys why did it get started and then we could talk a little bit about what we're doing now and where it's going.

John: 02:14

Okay, that sounds great. Sacred was founded by my wife and I sixteen years ago after seeing what child sexual abuse does to a family. Our granddaughters at first we thought it was one granddaughter but our granddaughters, two of our granddaughters that we know of was sexually abused by their father between the ages of two and six and when the older one said something at I guess she was almost seven then. When she told her mother, she was actually in in the cab with her dad delivering stuff and she was my granddaughter was falling asleep and my my my daughter said to her, what's wrong? Why didn't you sleep?

John: 02:58

You know, why are you sleeping? We're going to school. Dad's gonna drop you off at school and she said, oh well, dad comes in my room and I'm I'm I was told I can't tell you but dad does things to me and is you know, my my daughter didn't believe, know, first said, no, no, that's not true and then my granddaughter said, yes, it is and it's true and that's why I'm dying. It's been doing it for a long time and then my daughter immediately believed her. Once she saw that, my my my granddaughter was was visually upset.

John: 03:32

She's she saw that and she recognized that and she immediately got out of the cab with the well, first, challenged her her husband and he denied it, denied it and then they got out of the cab and they were in a parking lot, both of them and he stormed off. So, they're in a parking lot and that began the emotional and impactful situation that they need, they needed to get some help, call the police, and all. So, you start with the legal stuff and then you realize this guy's been contributing about, you know, dollars $100.00 as a truck driver to her salary. She's a teacher at $38.00. So, all of a sudden, they have a family of three with another one on the way and you know, he's running away or going off to jail.

John: 04:27

He actually got arrested and was was off to jail and she lost all that income. So, now, she's trying to raise a family of almost four on $38.00 a year. So, at that time, we were really fortunate. You know, I was general manager of general standard in Kansas City. They recommended that, you know, that we try to raise some money and help Alison or my daughter.

John: 04:59

And that's what we did. We raised some money and we started, I started distributing it to her as she needed, it was in a fund at a bank in Liberty and we decided that we made the decision, my wife and I, on what she, you know, if she needed the help or not and we did that for about two years. Meanwhile, in the interim, my daughter moved, sold her house, sold her car, didn't realize the bills she had, tremendous debt. So, she ended up moving to different part of the state near Springfield, which is less expensive and tried to rebuild her life there near her sister. Well, a year or so passed and you know, as we went through all the logistics you go through through a case where you know, there's where the case is postponed and moved again and you know, we started talking to we were in New Jersey when this happened.

John: 06:00

My wife and I lived in New Jersey and we started talking about, know, there's other people that don't have the resources that we did, you know, I had a good job and my wife was a teacher. So we started looking into it. I ended up moving to St. Louis for a position and in St. Louis I talked to the child advocacy center there and they said nobody else does what you're thinking of doing.

John: 06:29

Nobody else can help people right away when they have lack of funds. So we started off our 5013C with an attorney and the first year we gave away think three donations, 600 or something like that, but it's evolved over the years. So the reason we started it was because we saw a need and we decided that that you know we need to help some some people that are in the same situation as my daughter without the resources that she had. So we decided to be the resources or at least find the resources and and what sacred does sexually abused children's relief endeavor, what sacred does is provide interim or transitional funding for for families in need where that where that need is financial and due to the sexual abuse of a child or children. What that normally means is the breadwinner is is the predator but it's not always that case.

John: 07:39

I mean, we've supported families where you've moved with a family of the sexually abused child has had to move into a grandparents house, grandparents aren't ready to take on a family of four, so we've helped them. What we normally do is give thirty days of daily living expenses and at times we go to sixty days depending on how fast they can get into the system to get the resources they need or if they generally need the money for the second sixty days But by the end of sixty days, normally they're able to get into the into get resources from other people and from child advocacy centers.

Smoke: 08:21

You know, it's something that I think is obvious once you hear it, but you realize, okay, when you hear about a child being sexually abused, think, oh, the poor child and they've gone through this and they've got lots of things they have to do to, you know, recover and have a normal life. And but we don't normally think about, well, what does it do to the family immediately? And what you guys, you know, realized with your own situation is, like, like, usually, it means the income goes away, and the family is trying to figure out how to make ends meet, like, tomorrow. Like, what do we do? And probably there's many, many cases not probably.

Smoke: 09:12

There are many, many cases where the abuse is ignored because of the financial situation where, you know, they're kinda stuck in a situation and and, you know, unfortunately, a decision is made to to not blow it up. And and, you know, that's that's obviously a a tragic scenario. But when the the mom usually, you know, finds out and says, oh, there's a problem here. You know, they immediately if if it's the stepfather or the father or, you know, someone like, they lost most of their income. And all of a sudden, they're like, okay.

Smoke: 09:53

Well, how do I even survive? How do I raise this, you know, like, take care of these kids? And it's literally things like rent and food and grocery supplies and, you know, so many little little things and it's funny I was telling someone about sacred and and it almost sounds like it's trivial like these little you know a thousand dollar, $3,000, $5,000 check to get someone by, but it's actually the the opposite of trivial. It's the most important moment in time that family is trying to sort through. They're dealing with the emotional situation, and they're like, how do I put food on the table?

Smoke: 10:34

How do I keep the lights on? So I you know, again, when I first heard about it and you told me about it, I was like, wow. You know, that is such an important thing. And and it and I know it's grown so much from those first days when you gave away $600. I I don't remember what the number I know I should remember because I was on the board meeting, but, you know, this year was a record, right?

Smoke: 11:02

We, in terms of the amount that was being given away, numbers of families that have been helped?

John: 11:07

Yeah, I think, I think this year the number of families that have been helped is probably about the same as last year. But the amount of money that we're giving out this year per family has gone up from about $3,400 to $4,200 a family. Call it inflation or whatever you wanna call it, but the needs of being the amount of money has been greater. And I think we just got to about $230,000 this year in We just had, as you know, we just had a bunch put through this week and we have more coming from what I could tell there's three or four more coming in the next couple of days. So yeah, the need is there.

John: 11:51

It's interesting you said that this started and is can be relatable to a situation where they don't wanna say anything with a mother or the family doesn't wanna say anything because they're afraid of losing their finances. That was actually the original concept of sacred that we wanted to make sure the families knew that they didn't have to keep it secret, that they could report it because there's some help out there. That was the original plan, that was the original way it worked. It was tough to communicate, very tough to get that across, you know, because we don't know how to speak to those families. So that's why we went to child advocacy centers where the family already is in a situation, but what you said is true.

John: 12:47

So originally that was the plan to try to get the word out. Kind of like the battered wife syndrome, you know, where, you know, they don't wanna leave because they're afraid of the financials. But you know, over the sixteen years after reading over 500 cases of child sexual abuse, you learn that there's a lot more. There's a lot of other reasons why sacred needs to be there and why and who's sacred could help and the reasons and I think you've seen them reading some of the cases over the last year. There's so many different ways and you know, I mentioned grandparents before, you know, they're not the breadwinners, they're not contributing, but they're the people that need money if they're taking in the family.

John: 13:30

There's other things that we do that we've expanded our circle since we started.

Smoke: 13:36

Yeah, it's so important. That was one of the things also, the way you guys have done it, we don't know the actual people. We don't know the names. We don't know the the you know, who they are, what their demographic are. We we only read the case history, which is, you know, reported through child the child advocacy, center, and it's an anonymized request.

Smoke: 14:03

So we get the request that comes into our your great executive director, and, you know, Gina reads them and sorts through them, and and then she submits them to the board. We get the case file. So we read what happened. We just don't know the person. We don't know the names of the people, and then the board, you know, approves it, to to give the grant.

Smoke: 14:25

And it's just it's not unbelievable, but it's when you actually get these every week. And you I mean, you guys you guys have been doing them for sixteen years. So I'm just I'm one I'm a newbie one year in, but, you know, we get these requests every week. And there's so many examples of this, and we're barely scratching the surface of the number of kids and families that are affected by this. We're just getting the advocacy advocacy centers that know about sacred, who will have their game together to submit requests to help their, you know, their clients, and yet there's thousands and thousands of cases out there that we don't even see.

John: 15:11

This is very true. We're dealing with about 5% of the child advocacy centers in The United States. So there's over nine forty child advocacy centers. We're dealing with, I don't if the math still works, but we're dealing with a little over 50. Like this year we've dealt with about 22 because they keep coming on and off sometimes, you know, they have cases for us, sometimes they don't.

John: 15:32

So the interesting thing is this year we've had four or five new CACs join us. You know, we received that national award which gave us some more exposure. Yeah. Which was very nice. And then we've just had this thing happen in North Carolina last week with Sycamore Brewing where they were the owner of Sycamore Brewing was sexually abusing a 13 year old and word got out and Sycamore Brewing, a lot of the customers started dumping Sycamore Brewing.

John: 16:06

The owner got he got arrested, he's removed out of the ownership, the wife is gonna divorce him, but some of the customers said, we don't wanna penalize the people that work at Sycamore Brewing, we're gonna donate to organizations and one of the organizations that somebody found was sacred. And you know, this week we've probably gotten over a thousand dollars worth of donations from South Carolina because it's very close to the border of North Carolina to Sycamore Brewing where Sycamore Brewing is and and North Carolina, and that's the kind of exposure that's new. So, well, we got dogs barking. I'm sorry. Let me let me close this door.

John: 16:49

Can I excuse me?

Smoke: 16:49

Yeah. Sure. Yep.

John: 16:51

That means that Carol's coming home.

Smoke: 16:54

Okay,

John: 16:55

so the Sycamore Brewing situation actually brought us some some new CACs.

Smoke: 17:01

Yeah.

John: 17:01

And and some individual donations of people learning about actually did television spot for one of the news stations in in in in North Carolina in Charlotte. Yeah.

Smoke: 17:13

Now, meanwhile, that guy is removed from the business. He's probably gonna go to jail or something and, know, maybe, I don't know if the wife's gonna end up with the brewery, but, you know, maybe we can get those people to start drinking the beer again to support the family there too. Know? A it's a it's a great example. I mean, the everything economically goes away for those families that have that problem, you

John: 17:37

know? Yes. Yeah. Very true.

Smoke: 17:41

And yeah. So it it's it's really remarkable what you guys have done, and and you've done it, you know, I know you've leaned in heavily to the industry. The the beverage industry has been very supportive, and you do an annual banquet dinner gathering fundraiser, which generates quite a bit of of donations. And, you know, and, really, there's two things. One, getting the word out so advocacy centers around the country know about sacred, because I think a lot of a lot of the issue is a lot of these centers don't know.

Smoke: 18:20

So, you know, part of our challenge is making sure word gets out that this does exist, that there is help for these families. And then the other challenge is as we get the word out, how do we make sure we're bringing in donations and contributions to match the higher visibility? So, you know, we're I know we're working on both fronts at the same time, but, you know, it's a lot of like, you know, in my homeless dignity moves project, you know, it's hard to get someone in Florida to donate to homeless in California. But the reality of child sexual abuse is that it's happening in every community. And the the real answer is each community, if we can get the word out, you know, should be self supportive.

Smoke: 19:04

There's plenty of resources in every community. And if they knew about this, I think we could generate donations and contributions from people and businesses and community advocates that, you know, can go back to those communities and and and really support the families in that area. And I know, you know, I was able to secure a grant from, you know, the board I was on in Indiana and when we distributed some of our our endowment. And, you know, the condition was, you know, it had to be directed at Indiana. So okay.

Smoke: 19:40

It it now we're we're now we're starting to serve some Indiana community foundations who, now know about it, and we're starting to get the word out, but, you know, it's it's a process.

John: 19:51

It it is, but, you know, it's it's like you said, we can easily restrict funds to any area that we've done this before in Kansas City where we received a grant from a church up in North Kansas City and they've asked us to make sure we spend the monies in Clay And Platt Counties, which we easily can accomplish. Yeah, but the opportunity is obviously to get more people involved, to get more CACs involved and get more funding. We do not take any government funding, we never have, and we've only had one paid employee this whole, you know, in the whole sixteen years and that's only because my wife retired from the day to day operations of sacred two years ago, so we hired our first employee, so we still have only one employee, all of the work that I do, all of the work that Carol still does is all volunteer and you mentioned the industry, I've been very fortunate to have people support me in the industry, the wine and spirits industry, the beverage industry and I think, know, also that, you know, working at companies that allow me to take the time to do the work too.

John: 20:59

Which is very important. So yeah, it's grown tremendously, you mentioned how it's grown, you know, in I think we've been doing these wine and spirits auctions, this will be the fourteenth year. The first year we raised about $20,000 with 32 items on auction. Last year we raised $360,000 with about 125 auction items. So it's been really, really important for for sacred, for the wine industry and the spirits industry to support us with donations.

John: 21:40

And I know the industry has had a lot of trouble the last year or so and some of the donations are drying up. So if any of your support is out there that are in the wine and spirits industry, it's 04/25/2026 and I'll need donations starting in January to put in the auction.

Smoke: 21:57

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And helping so many people and and and that's really, you know, what we talked about on the board meeting is how do we expand the the universe of donors? How do we expand the places we're serving, the families we're serving by getting the word out?

Smoke: 22:16

But I know you're you're willing, I'm willing, others are willing to jump on a Zoom or go visit people if if there's people in their community that see a need. You know, obviously, I have a personal stake in this as, you know, having some experience with sexual abuse as a child and and knowing firsthand the situation. I think there's a lot of successful people in business, in communities who probably experience the same thing and don't talk about it. So, you know, one of the things that I, you know, have have been willing to do and and happy to do is to talk about that because it is such a common occurrence. It's not just, you know, relegated to some segment of society.

Smoke: 23:08

It's happening throughout society. There's so much of this abuse that happens and, you know, it's wrong. And do you what you and Carol have done is a force for good.

John: 23:24

Thank you. We we we believe so. You know, we've turned a pretty horrendous situation into a situation that, you know, that helps a lot of people. You know, it's my granddaughter who's now, I think she just turned 25, has a sacred logo on her ankle, You know, so I mean, that's really special. Carol has one too, we've changed the logo though so they make new tattoos but they have the original tattoo on their logo on their ankle so When my granddaughter did it, it really touched my heart.

Smoke: 24:03

There's a level of vulnerability to talk about something like this, but once you've done the work and you've healed it's not vulnerability it's sharing because it's important and you know that's the way I look at it is it's like look this is happening in every community to families that we know and you know it's not okay to remain silent, it's not okay to ignore it. I find it to be very important and inspiring what you all have done, and hope to be as helpful as I can along the way.

John: 24:44

Yeah, well, Sarah, you know, I think Sarah looked at it best, and Sarah's my granddaughter. She looked at it best when she said, know, I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor. Yeah. And she's always treated it that way and I think if you ever go to the website and read Sara's story, you'll see that she did that I think in ninth grade talking about her sexual abuse and so many people won't talk about it at all and she's in ninth grade talking about it and doing an essay on it and that essay is just part of our website because it's part of who we are.

Smoke: 25:23

That's awesome. And John, the website, I'll put everything in the show notes, but the best way to to find out more about the organization, Sarah's story, other testimonials is the website. Know you upgraded it last year. It looks really nice, and you can make donations right there.

John: 25:40

Yes. Www.kidsaresacred.org.

Smoke: 25:46

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, is there anything else you'd like to to share with the audience? I mean, it's a it's a it's a beautiful cause.

Smoke: 25:54

It's something that I know you guys have put your passion behind, and I I know others, when they hear about it, are gonna wanna help. So, you know, it's the best way to help is get online and and do that. But, you know, as I said, I know John and Carol and I and others, Gina, other people will be happy to, you know, host events or show up or do a Zoom or do whatever to get the word out and to be helpful to letting other communities know about this, a, the resources, and then b, you know, expanding the network to, you know, expand the pie of available resources for all these kids and their families.

John: 26:34

Yeah, think it's important to thank everybody that's been involved with SAKRID and who's donated to SAKRID and you know, one of the foundations out of New Jersey that's been very strong for us every year is Focus for Health, they found us and they've been, know without them we would not be able to have a paid employee or, and then you know Sky Ranch for Boys which started as an industry, they've always been supportive of us. And along the way you find other foundations, smaller foundations but consistently every year those two foundations donate to Sacred. So you know, it's important to recognize what they did because they are the base of some of the support we get.

Smoke: 27:17

Yeah and to the audience you know if you have been had personal experience by yourself or family members or people you know and you want to be involved but you don't want your name out there that's fine too. Can it can all be anonymous. You know, everyone makes their own choice about, you know, what whether they wanna be out there talking about it. But, also, I think the more people that talk about it, the better. Because, you know, you want people knowing, like, the looking for the signs and and also, you know, these moms that find out, you know, to take the brave step of reporting it and doing what they have to do to eliminate the the situation, but they're they're putting themselves at economic harm by doing it, and they should know that there is help out there.

John: 28:07

Yep. And and we respond within usually, the board will vote within eight hours, and we get distribution of funds to the child advocacy center who controls the distribution. We get it to them within twenty four hours so that the family can step aside from or move away from the financial concerns for thirty to sixty days and just worry about the child and the rest of their children, the family, worrying about healing, taking care of the medical things that they have to do, taking care of the legal things, the sane interviews and, you know, all of the stuff they have to do that has really disrupted their lives and impacted their lives forever. I think that's the other point I wanna make, know, we hear about this and we hear a lot about it lately, you know, with the Epstein files and child sexual abuse. The one thing that never goes away to those children is the effect of child sexual abuse.

John: 29:09

And I think you know that from your history. It never goes away. It's always there and the more we can help the families immediately work on helping those children get through that, the better off we're all gonna be as a society. So that's what we try to do. We try to get money as quickly as we can to relieve that one issue, but let them which will let them work on all the other issues that they're gonna have for a long time.

Smoke: 29:45

Yeah, it's so important. I mean, that's what we found with the homeless, You know, it's just a short time off the street in your own bed, in a room you can lock your stuff in, getting some medical and other help, it you can quickly bounce back depending on how how degraded you've become, how long you've been on the streets. But just having that little, you know, window of being able to sleep and being able to, you know, know that you're not yet under threat at all times makes such a difference. And I think this is the same in that you you give a little cushion to these families to get back on their feet. And it's not gonna solve everything.

Smoke: 30:32

As you say, this is a lifetime thing but it can give a family a boost that gives them neck to the next step into the you know of healing.

John: 30:44

Yep, that's very true, that's what we do. Awesome. And we're happy to do it and sorry we have to do it.

Smoke: 30:52

Yeah, well, I just hope we can do it for a lot more people. I wish there wasn't a need but there's a massive need and I thank you, John, for joining me here on the Smoke Trail. I think it was a great conversation to spread the word a little bit and love to have more people lean in to be helpful.

John: 31:13

Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about it and appreciate you on our board. Thank you.

Smoke: 31:19

Yeah, thank you.