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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
[00:00:00] Hello
[00:00:01] Mike Parsons: and welcome to the Moonshots Podcast. It's episode 219. I'm your co-host, mate Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by Mr. Mark Pearson. Freeland. Good morning.
[00:00:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: Good morning, Mike. Good morning listeners, as well as members and Moonshots Family. Boy, do we have an action packed sadly. Conclusion, Mike, to our current product discovery series.
[00:00:25] Mark Pearson Freeland: It's been a very illuminating and enjoyable ride so far, hasn't It? Certainly
[00:00:30] Mike Parsons: has, and we are by no means ending on a soft note, we are bringing it home with a great inventor and a great designer
[00:00:40] Mark Pearson Freeland: Aren. Bly me. This man I suppose, has probably influencer or at least created a product that almost every single one of us, the likelihood is Mike.
[00:00:52] Mark Pearson Freeland: All of us have encountered and seen in our lives, and that is Tony Fidel and his book Build An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making. Now Tony was and still is a 30 year plus expert entrepreneur product discoverer as well as customer focused creator Mike. And he is not only somebody who created some of the best products that we know, such as, this little thing that maybe we've encountered before.
[00:01:22] Mark Pearson Freeland: The I. But he's also since then gone on to create the Nest Learning thermostat. According to Malcolm Gladwell, a classic moonshots individual, Tony Fidel has made more cool stuff than almost anyone else in the history of Silicon Valley and in build. He tells us how, and I think that's a great little introduction, isn't it, Mike?
[00:01:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: Into what I think we're gonna discover today in our show, 219 on Tony Fidel's Build. How do we go out and build products worth making?
[00:01:54] Mike Parsons: Absolutely. And just to think you had me at, he created the iPod with Steve Jobs like done . Oh yeah. Then throw in the Nest thermostat. And do you remember what a revolution that was when it first hit the scene?
[00:02:10] Mike Parsons: It really changed the game. Who would've thought that your thermostat and your. Smart home appliance could actually look nice and work well too, heaven forbid, and we get to study the creator of that. Tony Fidel. We get to go on a journey into what it takes to go from an idea to a product, working on yourself and on the team, working on your product and the business.
[00:02:39] Mike Parsons: I just think we're gonna really get into what I think is a fun, he's a very direct, straightforward kind of character. He tells you how it is, and I think there's so much to learn. For anyone who wants to have a customer focus, for anyone who wants to bring the team along for the ride on what is certainly one of the greatest and most challenging adventures of it all, building a product and building a business, those things are damn hard.
[00:03:05] Mike Parsons: And we're gonna learn from a master today, aren't
[00:03:07] Mark Pearson Freeland: we? Yeah, you're totally right and I think one of the words that you've just used there is fun. I think there's a really nice characteristic of Tony that we're gonna encounter in all of our clips today where you get a sense of his. Joy in creating something worth making.
[00:03:25] Mark Pearson Freeland: And that's a great reminder to all of us as we try and go out and make products and validate directions to go in. It's all about having fun. Mike, without further ado, rather than you and I reveal all of the insights from Tony, why don't we kick off straightaway with Tony Fidel introducing you and I and our listeners to his book Build, as well as what he thinks that we should all take from the.
[00:03:46] Tony Fadell: And over the last 30 plus years, I've seen what humans need to reach their potential to disrupt what needs disrupting, to forge their own unorthodox path. So I'm here to write about a leadership style that I've seen win time and time again about how my mentors and Steve Jobs did it, about how I do it, about being a troublemaker, a shit stir.
[00:04:12] Tony Fadell: This isn't the only way to make something worth making, but it's. It's not for everyone. I'm not gonna be preaching progressive, modern organizational theory. I'm not gonna tell you to work two days a week and retire early. The world is full of mediocre, middle of the road companies, creating mediocre, middle of the road crap.
[00:04:33] Tony Fadell: But I've spent my entire life chasing after the products and people that strive for excellence. I've been incredibly lucky to learn from the best, from bold, passionate people who made a dent in the. I believe everyone should have that chance. That's why I wrote this book, everybody trying to do something meaningful needs and deserves to have a mentor and coach someone who's seen it and done it and can hopefully help you through the toughest moments in your career.
[00:05:02] Tony Fadell: A good mentor won't hand you the answers, but they will try to help you see your problem from a new perspective. They'll loan you some of their hard fought advice so you can discover your own. It's not just tech entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley who deserve some help. This book is for anyone who wants to create something new.
[00:05:19] Tony Fadell: Who is chasing excellence, who doesn't wanna waste their precious time on this precious planet. I'm gonna talk a lot about building a great product, but a product doesn't have to be a piece of technology. It can be anything. You make a service a. It could be a new kind of recycling plant. And even if you're not ready to make anything yet, this advice is still meant for you.
[00:05:43] Tony Fadell: Sometimes the first step is just figuring out what you want to do, getting a job. You're excited about building the person you want to become, or building a team that you can build anything with. This book isn't trying to be a biography. I'm not dead yet. It's a mentor in a box. It's an advice encyc. If you're old enough to remember a time before Wikipedia, you might recall the joy of the literal wall of encyclopedias on your bookshelf or your grandparents study, or deep inside the bowels of the library.
[00:06:15] Tony Fadell: You'd go to it if you had a specific question, but once in a while you'd also just open it up and start reading a for aardvark. You'd follow along and see where you ended up reading straight through or hopping around discovering little snapshots of the. That's how you should think of this book. You can listen straight through from beginning to end.
[00:06:37] Tony Fadell: You can poke around to find the advice and stories that are most interesting or useful in your current career crisis because there's always a crisis, either personally, organizationally, or competitively. You can follow the see also links sprinkled throughout the book, just like you'd click through on Wikipedia, dig deeper into any topic and see where it.
[00:07:00] Tony Fadell: Most business books have one basic thesis that they spend 300 pages expanding on. If you're looking for a range of good advice on various topics, you might need to read 40 books skimming endlessly to find the occasional nugget of useful information. So for this book, I just collected the nuggets. Each chapter has advice and stories informed by the jobs mentors, coaches, managers, and peers I've had, and the countless mistakes I've.
[00:07:29] Tony Fadell: Since this is my advice, based on my experience, this book roughly follows my career. We go from my first job outta college and end up where I am now. Every step, every failure taught me something. Life didn't begin with the iPod, but this book isn't about me because I didn't make anything. I was just one of the people on the teams that made the iPod, iPhone, the Nest Learning thermostat and Nest.
[00:07:57] Mike Parsons: There you go. The troublemaker is dishing it out. Tony Fidel's style, straight up and in your face. I love it. And I think what you get a very discreet, very clear image that in order to face this enormous challenge of making a successful product and business, he ain't messing around. He ain't gonna tell you.
[00:08:22] Mike Parsons: Two days a week and retire as a millionaire. , he's get, he's like a drill sergeant. He is this is gonna be hard, so let's get to work.
[00:08:30] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah, you're totally right. He's calling out already the fact that there's always going to be a crisis and that you will encounter countless mistakes, but at the end of the day, He's here to provide that little bit of guidance in his book.
[00:08:47] Mark Pearson Freeland: As he's calling out specifically, you are not necessarily gonna get answers to those crises or those mistakes and those problems that you're going to encounter in, because everybody encounters mistakes slightly differently, don't they? Instead, and I think this is really speaking to the product discovery.
[00:09:04] Mark Pearson Freeland: As a whole, what we're trying to uncover with the likes of Marty as well as Colin and Bill with working backwards, it's all about understanding that a product can be anything. It can be that service. Maybe it's a team, maybe it's something else, but also it's just about staying the course and taking note of those moments that do get a little bit uncomfortable.
[00:09:29] Mark Pearson Freeland: Maybe it's an uncomfortable conversation with a colleague or maybe your product just doesn't sell. And as we're gonna hear from today, Mike, we're gonna hear a couple of those, moments of learning. That Tony went on through this illustrious career and I hope that we are gonna end up being pretty inspired.
[00:09:46] Mark Pearson Freeland: But also if the right word is reassured that the over that an iPod, it takes time. And if you, it does want to go out and create something as substantial as that, it's going to take a lot of effort
[00:09:59] Mike Parsons: and let's just break down. We, we're talking about how tough it is to create a product, to create a business, like really the chance of success.
[00:10:09] Mike Parsons: Let's go statistical here for a second. You ready to geek out on the numbers mark?
[00:10:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: Oh I'm here for the data.
[00:10:15] Mike Parsons: Yep. All right. All right. Let's do the data. If you look at like most studies, like if you look at the US Bureau of Employment they'll talk about, or small business bureau, they'll talk about at least two in every 10 companies fail within the first year, at least half fail within five years.
[00:10:37] Mike Parsons: And in fact, greater deeper studies that have been done on product launches showed that at least 75% of new products do not succeed. They fail. It is an incredibly hard. Thing to do, and if you just think about the chances of success, there's not a lot of things in life that you can start and say, Hey, roughly I got like a one in 10.
[00:11:05] Mike Parsons: Maybe two in 10 chance of this actually working out. Like those are pretty low odds. So for me, mark, this is the case for why we need a product series. This is why we need to study Marty Kagan or work backwards like Amazon or go into the world of Apple and Nest because it is so hard and I think, We probably suffer a little bit from underestimating what it really takes, because as is the case we see these over overnight successes.
[00:11:38] Mike Parsons: But what we've learned Mark on the Moonshots podcast is there is no such thing as an overnight success, right?
[00:11:46] Mark Pearson Freeland: There's no such thing. If there's one thing that we have definitely learned, Mike, across 219 shows, 20 master series, it's that these things, Time they take effort and the ones who do end up succeeding are the ones who put in the hard work.
[00:12:04] Mark Pearson Freeland: Like you say, there's no six pack abs in six days, .
[00:12:08] Mike Parsons: Oh, I tell you what, there might be some folks with six pack abs and they're called the members of the Moonshot podcast. Those people are putting in the time and the effort. So Mark, I think it is only appropriate for us to tip the hat to our.
[00:12:23] Mark Pearson Freeland: Look, I think these members, they've certainly got six pack brains at least, and that include Dan, Bob, John Terry, Marlene, Kenmar, Marj, and Connor, Lisa, Sid, Mr.
[00:12:37] Mark Pearson Freeland: Bond, Paul Berg, cowman, and David are annual members again. Week, can week, Mike. That list is getting longer and longer. Now the good news is right hot on their heels as always is Joe Crystal, Ivo and Christian, Sam, Kelly, Barbara and Andre, Matthew, Eric Abbey and Chris, Deborah Lase. Steve Craig, Daniel, Andrew, Ravi and Yvette, Karen Ra, pj and Nico, Ola and Ingram.
[00:13:04] Mark Pearson Freeland: Dirk. Harry, Karthik, Vanatta, Marco and Sun Jet. Pablo Rogers, Steph Gaia, Anna Raw Nilan, as well as James Nilan and James are a brand new members, but also a great call out to Nilan who sent us a fantastic review as well as a piece of advice, Mike, over the last couple of weeks, didn't.
[00:13:28] Mike Parsons: It sounded like he, he should be doing his own moonshots podcast.
[00:13:33] Mike Parsons: He was so onto the productivity thing. So big thumbs up to Nilan and to all of you members for supporting us and helping us on our long journey to be the best version of ourselves and we turn our eyes towards one of the greatest challenge. That of building a product and building potentially a business down the track.
[00:13:55] Mike Parsons: So let's return to Tony now. Let's see what happens when we go to the beginning.
[00:14:02] Tony Fadell: It starts with an idea and in Nest, it took almost a whole year before we started the company. The way that it's first started was how might I think I could solve this problem technically? So is it, do I have enough of the pieces?
[00:14:17] Tony Fadell: Do I know enough of the. And I said, yeah, I know that because I had enough experience on that. So you first had to research enough about what you think would be building. Then after that, you started researching the market. So you have to remember when you're disrupting an industry and if you have something dramatically different, if you have disruptive technology, then you can change a stagnated market.
[00:14:36] Tony Fadell: Yes. The way that I've seen it is that. , you have to start with the idea. What are you changing? And you have to take bold steps in terms of making something and trying it. Now you have to test lots of testing. So you would make something and then you would go to some of the industry leaders or some of the people you really trust.
[00:14:58] Tony Fadell: Who are knowledgeable about a given area, and you'd say, what do you think? What do you think? And then you start to, to set your risk level based on how big the market is. I think the way the world changes is not by people being safe, but by challenging expectations. Challenging the conventional wisdom.
[00:15:16] Tony Fadell: And if you want to change the world, You need to get out of the
[00:15:18] Mark Pearson Freeland: area of safety you want to get out of the area of safety mic and start to challenge conventional wisdom. The key thing that I'm hearing from that great insight into how Tony Fidel would approach the creation and development and discovery of a brand new product is the admission of what are you changing?
[00:15:41] Mark Pearson Freeland: And I love this idea of build and their unorthodox ways. Tony would put it, of making products worth creating is understanding or identifying. What it is that you are changing and why that matters. Why is this something much like the Nest thermostat or the iPod? Why are these things going to be successes?
[00:16:02] Mark Pearson Freeland: Why are they going to be something that customers, get outta bed for and are intrigued at and research and even purchase? And stay loyal to that brand. I think it really comes down to that big insight, doesn't it? What are you changing and why is it that customers really care? Yes. And I think Tony did a great job with both of those particular products in identifying where that gap is in the, let's call it, the status quo of products that were currently in the market and how he wanted to go out and change them.
[00:16:32] Mark Pearson Freeland: What are you where are you getting inspired from Tony in that second, I
[00:16:36] Mike Parsons: think the interesting thing that he was building on is the capacity to get a little bit uncomfortable, get away from safety in order to come with radical solutions. I think that's the real idea that you see in the iPod and the Nest thermostat, and I actually reflect on.
[00:17:01] Mike Parsons: And I think that the greatest challenge we face in that early stage is in fact falling for the safer idea, the assumption and the wishful thinking, oh, that'll be cool. That'll work. But it's the challenge that Tony is giving us is can we come with something radical, unexpected, something that is breaking the norm, breaking the conventions, and I.
[00:17:28] Mike Parsons: I wonder why do you think it's so hard to do that? Why do you think so few companies do that market? What is it in the moment that people often make a guess or go for some safe wishful thinking? Why d Why does that happen so often?
[00:17:42] Mark Pearson Freeland: My personal opinion is that in times of my own career when I've perhaps chosen the simpler.
[00:17:50] Mark Pearson Freeland: And as Tony said in that first clip, a product can be anything from a physical product, service or
[00:17:56] Mike Parsons: whatever it might be. It's not just, it's just not simple. It's, I think the key word is safe, isn't it?
[00:18:00] Mark Pearson Freeland: SA is safe. Exactly. And I think in my career, the times when I've chosen an option that perhaps seems safer is because it's less energy, and therefore it's going to be a little bit less uncomfortable and.
[00:18:16] Mark Pearson Freeland: Assumed more successful. Now, obviously, as we saw from the effort that Tony puts into the ipo, which was pretty groundbreaking, Mike, we were talking super at a time of CD players, cassette players. Yeah. There was some mp3 devices out there at the time, but when it came out, it was that game changer, wasn't it?
[00:18:36] Mark Pearson Freeland: And clearly not the low hanging. As you could call it, and I think the success of products, when you put in the. And do that hard work and go down that challenging the conventional wisdom or the status quo and not doing that safer route, it stands out because customers realize that's what I was looking for.
[00:18:57] Mark Pearson Freeland: That's why fancy, that's what it is, that is going to make a difference in my life. Because the simpler, oh, sorry. The safer route is sometimes just the easier one, wouldn't you say?
[00:19:10] Mike Parsons: I would, and I think it's like what could we do in order to avoid making. Choices that are too safe. And I think it is to remember how low our chances are of success.
[00:19:24] Mike Parsons: Yes. I think it's a big wedge, a big slice of humility and go, chances are we're gonna fail. And I think, I'm just trying to bump myself in that position right now. If you're like, oh, we're only gonna have one crack at this and it's gonna be, who knows? I think if you. Really looking objectively at the chance of success and how much the odds are against you that you might go geez, we better really take a swing at this one because this is gonna be hard.
[00:19:54] Mike Parsons: I think especially when you enter into an existing category where there's totally, there's a lot of options already. For customers, and you really have to come with something that is distinct, that is new, that is unique because you got switching costs. Why would people switch? It's eh, that looks a bit better, but I can't be bothered.
[00:20:17] Mike Parsons: Switching costs is, or the bias to the status quo. That is the reality. So you gotta fight for their attention. You gotta come with something different or otherwise, why change? Why upgrade? Why switch? Why churn when you've already got a solution? Cuz it just takes time and effort, doesn't it?
[00:20:35] Mark Pearson Freeland: We've all experienced the. Onboarding costs that come with, oh my gosh, a new software, a new system. Let's say you've joined a new company or the products that you've been using and the systems you've been using get updated. Whether it's an iPhone or whether it's Google Docs or Slack or anything like that.
[00:20:54] Mark Pearson Freeland: Yeah. That learning curve can be challenging, can't it? And sometimes it's a little bit frustrating, you think, why am I doing this? And that switching cost as you put it, It is substantial. And I would say that I've seen people look at that switching cost and think, ah, you know what? It's not worth it.
[00:21:11] Mark Pearson Freeland: I'm gonna stay with what I've already got. I've already put in time to learn how to use this other product, this other system or service. So therefore I don't wanna have to go and do it. And you are right to make a case to customers and to say, this is why we're bringing it out. This is the proof that why it's gonna work.
[00:21:31] Mark Pearson Freeland: Only then can customers maybe look at it and think, you know what, they've done the hard work. I think they might be right here. It looks attractive. It makes sense, it's gonna work. The customer experience is great. It's gonna be simple and safe. I think that is something that really blocks a lot of us when it comes to picking up a brand new, innovative product.
[00:21:53] Mark Pearson Freeland: It's the idea that it's going to be harder than what I already have, and therefore maybe it's not for. And I think that's where Tony really cracks into, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:22:03] Mike Parsons: How good is this? We're really getting into, we know that we're setting off on an incredibly challenging adventure and we need to have the courage to go for something brave, something a little bit more radical if we really wanna make a dent in the universe.
[00:22:20] Mike Parsons: So there are, we already have two big lessons from Tony Fidel and his book Build, and we've got plenty more to come. I do wanna point out. If you're enjoying listening to the show, you should be heading over to moonshots.ao where you can become a member. And if you become a member, the perks for our members, they're off the charts, mark.
[00:22:40] Mike Parsons: They get, wait for this mark. You become a member. You get an entire new additional Moonshots podcast. It's called the Master Series. You get that entire thing as part of your membership as well in as well as supporting us and helping us pay the bills. You get an entire separate podcast. That's pretty good.
[00:23:00] Mark Pearson Freeland: It's pretty cool, isn't it? And we've been doing those for nearly two years, Mike. So the library is actually pretty substantial. That's a brand new episode released every single month on topics where we do really deep and intense dives. So topics like motivation, first principles, teamwork and collaboration habits.
[00:23:23] Mark Pearson Freeland: Communication, entrepreneurship. That feels like a pretty good build on what we're uncovering with the product discovery series right now, but all the way through rapid prototyping, opportunity costs, and even the idea of happiness or wealth creation. So there's a really broad range, Mike, that you know, you and I and the Moonshots family dive into every single month that you.
[00:23:45] Mark Pearson Freeland: Our subscribers and members can get access to, but it's exclusive for you guys because we know that you are behind us helping keep the lights on for the Moonshot Show. And that's what we give back to you guys every single
[00:23:57] Mike Parsons: month. So if you wanna sign up head of the to Moonshot ao, there's all the goodness there.
[00:24:03] Mike Parsons: You can hit the members button, you can get all the show notes, the archive, everything is there, and you'll be on the way to being the best version of yourself and talking about that. You know what, Tony was talking with Lexi the other day, and he's got some thoughts on
[00:24:16] Mark Pearson Freeland: that too.
[00:24:17] Tony Fadell: What does it take? It takes belief in yourself.
[00:24:21] Tony Fadell: That's the first. Belief that you can do it not, but w hopefully with mirrors or mentors around your coaches around you to make sure, you're not crazy , it's a crazy, smart idea, but you're not crazy and you're just working on something as a, like a lone mad man or woman lo , you have a great idea.
[00:24:41] Tony Fadell: And like I said, great ideas, chase you, you can, in this world, there are so many people who have more ideas than they have time to. I. I used to be like that. I would like, oh my God, I have this idea. This idea. And you do, you try to do all of them. , but the best ideas are the ones that you can really focus on and you shut out all those other things and you bring them other ideas into the thing you're trying to do.
[00:25:02] Tony Fadell: So I try to run away from a great idea. And then it stalks me. Yeah, it hunts you down because you're like, ah, that's gonna have this problem. I'm gonna put it aside. And then all of a sudden few days later, oh, I think I know how to solve that problem. Or I talk to somebody, and you just always niggling around the edges out of it.
[00:25:21] Tony Fadell: And then at some point it's It just becomes, it becomes like this black hole that just sucks you and you're like, I can't think about anything else but this. It's almost like a relationship in the world, right? , when you have it with a per you, you find your a partner. , you're like, wade. Something, and then you're channel like, and then all of a sudden it just, It comes together, right? It's like that.
[00:25:39] Mark Pearson Freeland: Ultimately achieve folk. See I'm different. I just dive
[00:25:41] Tony Fadell: right in. I used to do that too. I used to dive right in. Yeah. But I learned that you need more effective
[00:25:47] to
[00:25:47] Tony Fadell: run away from it.
[00:25:48] Tony Fadell: run away from it. And so it chases you because it makes you think harder about that story. This is not dating advice
[00:25:54] Mark Pearson Freeland: we're
[00:25:55] Tony Fadell: talking about. You must start . But ultimately,
[00:25:57] Mark Pearson Freeland: So you have. Focus on it. But you also said, so believe in yourself. So it's not necessarily even the idea, it's the human that believe in the
[00:26:07] Tony Fadell: human being.
[00:26:08] Tony Fadell: You, you have to believe in your hu yourself and the idea that you have. Cuz if you don't have that belief, then you can't project that to other people to say join the
[00:26:17] Mark Pearson Freeland: team. I think this is a huge insight, Mike and I, it's one. I think speaks volumes outside of the the idea of just building something from scratch.
[00:26:30] Mark Pearson Freeland: Instead, what I think Tony's now leaning into and revealing for us is that you need to work on yourself and actually have discipline with how you, as a an entrepreneur or a product creator have when it comes to ideas. There's been plenty of times in my career. I look at the plate or the to-do list, and I think, oh, this is a, this is fun.
[00:26:54] Mark Pearson Freeland: I've got loads to do. , where do I. And that is one of the trickiest, I think, questions that a lot of product creators and entrepreneurs probably have. Where do I start? What do I focus on? And it comes back to this idea of prioritization, doesn't it? It's gonna be hard for you to tackle everything.
[00:27:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: Instead, as Tony's calling out, focus on the thing that keeps on coming back. And I love that new idea that I think I'm getting from Tony in that clip. Put it to one. And if it keeps on coming back to you, if it keeps on percolating to the surface and let's say nudging you on the shoulder and it keeps on coming up with conversations.
[00:27:32] Mark Pearson Freeland: Hey Mike, I've got this idea every week I tell you about it. That I think is where Tony's leaning us towards. Isn't it? The ideas that are infectious and you can't get away
[00:27:42] Mike Parsons: from Yeah, I think there's a couple. Builds I can make there. One is you can't rush a good product, right? . It takes time.
[00:27:51] Mike Parsons: It takes time to see and to witness the problem itself. That's why so many, successful products were created by entrepreneurs who had the problem themselves and wanted a solution. If you look at how Richard Branson thinks about Virgin and how he created Virgin Airways, it was because he couldn't get the flights with ba.
[00:28:17] Mike Parsons: And he was frustrated with the experience with British Airways. Likewise I see. Because it is a long game, and this is something that's come up a lot on moonshots. It requires David Goggins like resilience. And in order to fuel the resilience, I would propose to you, mark, that you really need to have taken the time to see the problem that you wanna solve, but also not only have a conviction in the problem that your users have, but to have conviction in yourself and what you are doing.
[00:28:56] Mike Parsons: Because if you have this, you will serve the user. But the other stakeholder that Fidel mentions is you'll be able to go out in the world. And recruit amazing people to join your mission. To get them on the bus with you because it's not a solo sport, it's a team sport. And so I think there's like a whole bunch in this.
[00:29:19] Mike Parsons: The resilience for the long term and the continued. Self-belief that what you are doing is the right thing. So the question is, mark, we've talked a lot about resilience. We've talked a little bit less about reminding yourself of your purpose. So here's my question for you, Jer. Drum roll. How do you do that?
[00:29:44] Mike Parsons: How do you remind yourself? How do you work on yourself? How do you build yourself, mark? How do you keep clear? On the mission so that you can bring people around you to get things done in your work. How do you do it?
[00:29:59] Mark Pearson Freeland: The way that I try and do that, Mike, is through, like you say, it is discipline. It's very difficult to, I think, choose to onboard a team and get them around you rallying together towards a certain cause when you've got too many things.
[00:30:17] Mark Pearson Freeland: On the go. I think you can't possibly as Marty Kagan said in inspired, you can't have a great product team unless you are designing products together and specifically focusing on solving problems together. Unless you've got that, what you end up doing is you've got too many directions, too many areas that you're trying to lean into.
[00:30:39] Mark Pearson Freeland: So the thing for me is trying to create upfront a really, Strategy and single-minded vision that I think we can all rally behind and work towards accomplishing together, because not only is that then setting me up for success because I know what I'm telling other people where I'm spending my time. It also then helps me say to my colleagues, Whether they're leadership or reports, then say, right guys, this is what we're working on.
[00:31:10] Mark Pearson Freeland: This is how we are going to do it together, and this is how we can accomplish our goal ultimately, and focus on those KPIs that matter to that single idea. Yeah.
[00:31:21] Mike Parsons: Yeah. So here's the big thing, mark. We've talked a lot about this being like a marathon. What you are sharing, there is really important stuff.
[00:31:32] Mike Parsons: You've gotta communicate, share, be an ambassador to the vision, what you're fighting for with this product, what the team is working on. But let's go into those cold, dark, lonely moments, , it's early in the morning or it's late at night, and the little voice of self-doubt comes. How do you fight off? How do you remain tough and resilient when you're facing?
[00:31:56] Mike Parsons: Self-doubt on your own. How do you build
[00:31:58] Mark Pearson Freeland: yourself? Oh, those one, those moments are tough, Mike, particularly when you are reaching, a conclusion point of maybe a quarter or an end of year, or maybe you've got a deadline that's looming, that little self-doubt where you think, am I, have I spent my time doing it correctly?
[00:32:15] Mark Pearson Freeland: Did the team believe in me? I think it really comes down to the advice that. Picked up along the way of not only the product discovery series, but some of their other moonshots members, and that's having open frank direct conversations where you can gather feedback. That's one of the key things for me. I like to.
[00:32:36] Mark Pearson Freeland: Think
[00:32:37] Mike Parsons: You're, you are talking to the team again. I want you to go dark here. Go to those deep well of self-doubt you're facing. Big challenge. How do you work on yourself? By yourself? Because this is the moment, this moment where you're like, oh my God, we're not gonna make it. Oh my gosh, I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing.
[00:32:58] Mike Parsons: Oh, damn, why am I even doing all of. What do you do in those moments? You can't make any calls. It's dark in there, and you gotta get through, you gotta find the light in the tunnel. How do you do that
[00:33:11] Mark Pearson Freeland: bit when you're by yourself in the tunnel? The cave, the moment of despair, , you know you're on that low Yes.
[00:33:21] Mark Pearson Freeland: That point of the hero's journey and everything's done. What do you do? What do you do? What I do is I write it. I think it's the simplest, lowest hanging. And barrier to entry that one can do. When you are facing those dark moments, it's not picking up a bottle of wine , it's not anything like that.
[00:33:41] Mark Pearson Freeland: Instead, where I lean into, and this is something I've done obviously listeners won't necessarily be surprised. But writing it down really helps me get out those anxieties and to build on that. It's not just journaling that I'm necessarily referring to, even though journaling certainly helps me, but it's writing down the plan, the vision, but also my to-do list every single time that I, I feel that moment, those, those moments, those niggles, when you think, oh, I feel a little bit.
[00:34:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: Unsettled. Maybe it's in my stomach or maybe it's in the back of my head. Either it's a voice or it's a physical feeling that your body tells you, Hey, Mike or Mark, you're not feeling quite Yeah. Yeah. In those moments, I sit back I wipe my whiteboard clean. I close the laptop, put the phone away, and I say, what do I need to?
[00:34:35] Mark Pearson Freeland: What is my focus, whether it's today or this week or this month? Yeah, because that as soon as I do it, and I did this yesterday and before today's recording, I do it and I sit back and I think, you know what? Just the act of getting out of my own head and putting it visually helps me feel so much more relaxed.
[00:34:55] Mark Pearson Freeland: You can feel my sh, I can feel my shoulders even relaxing as I look back at my to-do list and think, you know what? That's not that. It's not as hard as I thought it would be. I now know the three or four items that I need to do. So now it's all about the strategy of doing those three or four things. I can do
[00:35:11] Mike Parsons: three or four things great suggestion. Write it down, reaffirm the plan. That's all about taking control, isn't it?
[00:35:19] Mark Pearson Freeland: It's taking control of those moments when you feel uncomfortable, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. We've uncovered this in the Moonshot show, but isn't it interesting, Mike, and you and I reflect on this of course outside of the show, how product discovery and these lessons that we've learned from Mar Kagan, Colin Briar, as well as Tony Fidel really speaking to this idea of perseverance, resilience.
[00:35:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: Absolutely. And Discipl. Discipline with
[00:35:46] Mike Parsons: yourself and yeah, and when you go into those really tough moments, there's a couple of other things to add to your list, which is a great start. I would say, this idea of your circle of influence or your circle of control, there will be things that you can reflect upon even in the midst of some things not being on track, some challenges, problems, or as Tony Fidel, there's always a crisis.
[00:36:11] Mike Parsons: There will always be some things that are going. That you did execute to plan. So I think it's very important to remind yourself a and B might not be working out, but actually I did C and D really well, and that's on this project, in this moment, on this product or business. I think that's a very important thing to do because you will never find that everything is going wrong, because if you wanna get a little bit.
[00:36:39] Mike Parsons: Philosophical about it. If you are there and you're able to take a breath, then that's job done , yes, exactly. That's one thing you did well, right? Yeah. If you took one step, you did that well, if you sent that email, even though it was like, Hey, there's a problem. At least you're starting to get onto it, like being able to face not only the challenge but also to recognize that not everything is going wrong.
[00:37:04] Mike Parsons: Cuz then that kind of stops you spinning outta control. Yes. I think there's another technique that we've discussed and that's what David Goggins calls the cookie jar. You need to have a list. Of your accomplishments that you can go back to. So when you're in your hour of need, when you are in the Valley of Darkness, have a list somewhere written out.
[00:37:30] Mike Parsons: Or in an app somewhere that you can easily call up to remind yourself of the successes that you personally have achieved, things you can own. I did this and it can be my one goes way back into my time at high school and. Right up to things that have happened recently, which I consider successes that I've really achieved.
[00:37:57] Mike Parsons: And so when you look at that, it's a little reminder that. Oh, hey, I actually did hit the target on a bunch of stuff in my life, and it's also probably gonna lead you to remember that it wasn't a straight line, that there were challenges along the way. And I think when we're in those moments of doubt and challenge and there's a crisis, remembering that, Hey, there was a crisis on this other thing and that got solved, that is really essential if you want to stop the rot and get things back on track.
[00:38:29] Mike Parsons: What
[00:38:29] Mark Pearson Freeland: do you. Stop the rot . I kinda like that as a phrase. I wanna build and reflect Mike on, on your cookie jar list, because I think you've revealed to me in the description, you just gave us the core value that I think I. Miss every time something right happens. And what I mean by that is when there's a success at work, maybe a project has gone live on time or regardless of when it went live, but it was successful.
[00:39:00] Mark Pearson Freeland: Reflecting on those moments is great as well as being able to say, I achieved this despite this particular challenge. , so the app went live even though we had X, Y, or Z problems and dating all the way back to high school, that must be a pretty amazing list to cookie jar and it's certainly something that I'm gonna go out and build myself actually, because this is a wonderful little treasure trove to dive into as we know the value of mantras and so on.
[00:39:30] Mark Pearson Freeland: And obviously, I suppose the cookie jar concept. Similar to what we were hearing from Matthew McConaughey with going back and revisiting his journals that he was keeping since being a kid in order to write green lights. Because importantly, the challenges that you encounter are sometimes just as valuable as the successes that you see.
[00:39:51] Mark Pearson Freeland: And that's right. The That's right. And I love that idea that. We obviously from David Goggins with the cookie jar, it's giving you that power, that confidence when you're hitting rock bottom and you need that little bit of resilience. And compare it with Tony. I think you're totally right.
[00:40:07] Mark Pearson Freeland: That methodology of circle of control the cookie jar list. I think that. Would reinforce what Tony's saying to us around building yourself. Yes. You need to build yourself to be that, that strong and not distracted when it comes to concerns that you have. Oh, I've got investors on the phone.
[00:40:29] Mark Pearson Freeland: Oh, we're not gonna hit the forecast that we had. Oh, I need to get rid of all these things ladder up to making yourself feel a bit uncomfortable, isn't it? But if you've got enough preparation in yourself, confidence discipline, you can stay the course with the priorities that you have, and you know why you're creating that product or business, then it's gonna make it a little bit easier, isn't it?
[00:40:52] Mark Pearson Freeland: You're gonna feel more comfortable making those decisions in the long run.
[00:40:57] Mike Parsons: And when you have those tools, when you can build yourself, you can actually start to put your mind to even more use to build your business. So let's have a listen to what Tony Fidel has to say about that.
[00:41:11] Mark Pearson Freeland: Okay. So when did you first start?
[00:41:13] Mark Pearson Freeland: To dream about building your own things, designing your own products, designing your own systems and software and
[00:41:23] Tony Fadell: hardware. W in high school there was a company that. A friend of mine found it and I was the second employee. It was called Quality Computers and it was a mail order cuz there's no e-commerce.
[00:41:36] Tony Fadell: Then there was no internet again, . Yeah. You either mailed in your little coupon and you said, this is what I wanted to order. Or you wrote in to get a catalog and delivered to you, turnaround time. And this stuff was like, from the time you wanted, the time you bought it was, Eight to 12 weeks. That was just the normal way of getting things.
[00:41:52] Tony Fadell: So quality computers was a mail order for Apple two, and it was software and all kinds of accessories. So hardware, accessories, so hardware, plug-in cards, joysticks, all this stuff. And what we noticed was there were accelerators and memory cards. And to be able to use those cards, you had to actually go and change the software you used to access this new memory.
[00:42:17] Tony Fadell: So you literally had to go and you took the program that you had, let's say, was Apple Works, which was like an early Microsoft office or something like that, and you had to literally change the code. And you would install all these patches to then take advantage of the hardware. So what we started creating was software on top of it to do the automatic installation of all of these patches.
[00:42:39] Tony Fadell: So we made it much easier to take new hardware and then and the existing software you have and expanded into this new world. So it was creating tools and the really great customer support and we started getting a lot of orders cuz we had the software make it easier to install, to give them the superpower.
[00:42:56] Tony Fadell: And at the same time they would be able to change their software and have a new world that wasn't existing from the companies that were creating. The initial products. And so it was more of that. And then that happened with hard drives. So I wrote a hard drive optimizer for the Apple two to read, because you could get really fragmented.
[00:43:14] Tony Fadell: So I wrote that piece of software and we sold that through the company along with the hard drives that we sold from third parties. So that all happened in 12th grade. Freshman year of college. , you wrote
[00:43:26] Mark Pearson Freeland: a hard drive optimizer in 12th grade
[00:43:29] Tony Fadell: for the Yeah. Between 12th and freshman year. What programming language,
[00:43:33] Mark Pearson Freeland: do you remember?
[00:43:34] Mark Pearson Freeland: Is it assembly? Is
[00:43:34] Tony Fadell: it, was It was, there were certain inner loops were assembly and other loops. Actually, there were really early Pascal, no C see compilers. What was the motivation
[00:43:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: behind these? Is it. To make people's lives easier. Is it to create a thing, experience that is simpler and simpler, thereby more accessible to a larger number of people?
[00:43:53] Mark Pearson Freeland: Like what? Or did you just
[00:43:55] Tony Fadell: the Tinker ? No. It was two things really. Because one, we wanted to sell more hardware and software, right? Yes. So it was like, oh, make it easier for the user. And then the other thing was, because I was also manning the customer support line. People would call in and go, this doesn't work.
[00:44:09] Tony Fadell: And I'm like, oh, I gotta go fix the hardware and software, right? Or I gotta fix the software to make the hardware and the installation process better. So my whole world was out of box experience from when I was in high school , because I had to man the customer support line, pack the boxes, and write some of the code while we were doing, while Joe Gleason.
[00:44:28] Tony Fadell: Founder of Quality Computers, he was off doing the mark the ads, placing the ads for the mail order, making sure we were running the credit cards. ? Yeah, it was two of us and then it turned into a third, and then we hired another person from high school to like pack boxes so I could stay on the customer support liner doing the software.
[00:44:45] Tony Fadell: And it was all in his parents' basement. Yeah.
[00:44:47] Mark Pearson Freeland: As you were scaling
[00:44:49] Tony Fadell: exponentially. Scaling, right? Yeah, exactly. Boots strap.
[00:44:53] Mark Pearson Freeland: Bootstrapping in the basement. Mike, I think the key insight that I'm getting from Tony there as he's talking to Lex and it's one of the key lessons that really comes out of the book build around building your business is identifying, I think the.
[00:45:10] Mark Pearson Freeland: Common problem or the common hiccup or the common frustration that customers have, and then solving a problem that's worth solving. So understanding how to get into maybe your customer's mind. So in, in that example, understanding the frustrations that customers are giving over customer support and then putting it into practice, I think this is a big.
[00:45:33] Mark Pearson Freeland: Call out here, and I think the call out is to keep it simple, , what we're hearing from Tony here is I wanted to go into the work, the 12th grade, for those who don't know who aren't based in the us I think you're about 17, 18. That's right. Is that right? Yep. And he's going in, he's just doing something, he's obviously.
[00:45:52] Mark Pearson Freeland: Managing school and so on at the same time. I imagine. But it's . It's trying to do something that's just simple, because that's ultimately what customers are really leaning in towards,
[00:46:02] Mike Parsons: isn't it? It is, and it's a great reminder of how. Real work on a product and a business is so not glamorous . It's so not ivory tower.
[00:46:12] Mike Parsons: Yeah. It's and I tell you what I reckon if you want a power tip, man, the customer support lines. Yeah. Emails and phone numbers. And you'll soon work out. What customers need, and you can focus on that first rather than getting too carried away with your dreams of global expansion and whatnot. I think it was a very humbling reminder that he learnt.
[00:46:39] Mike Parsons: His customer focus, he learned his kind of solution focus from answering those phone calls. Cuz let's be honest, when you're prototyping or manning customer support line, if you hear the problem, 99% of human beings in the world were like, wow, we better solve that problem because yes, we've.
[00:46:56] Mike Parsons: Build something that's not perfect and what a great way to iteratively. Slowly but surely build something that's a long lasting product and a long lasting business. By focusing first on what the customers need solutions for, focus there and the business will come. They will be loyal. They will recommend you refer you.
[00:47:18] Mike Parsons: Those things will all happen if you focus on building something for them and not building. For yourself, but we ain't done with Tony Fi Delmark. I think we got one more left. Why don't you set this one up to bring us home. Mark.
[00:47:33] Mark Pearson Freeland: This one to bring us home is a huge insight from Tony specifically around how there is no shortcut, there's no six pack abs overnight, and instead, what you need to go and do.
[00:47:44] Mark Pearson Freeland: You need to stay true and you need to look
[00:47:47] Tony Fadell: closer. One of my greatest teachers was my grandfather. He taught me all about the world. He taught me how things were built and how they were repaired, the tools and techniques necessary to make a successful project. I remember one story he told me about screws and about how you need to have the right screw for the right job.
[00:48:10] Tony Fadell: There are many different screws, wood screws, metal screws, anchors, concrete screws. The list went on and on. Our job is to make products that are easy to install for all of our customers themselves without professionals. So what did we do? I remembered that story that my grandfather told me, and so we thought, how many different screws could we put in the box?
[00:48:36] Tony Fadell: Was it gonna be 2, 3, 4, 5? Because there's so many different wall types. So we thought about it, we optimized it, and we came up with two different, three different screws to put in the box. . We thought that was gonna solve the problem, but it turned out it didn't. So we shipped it and shipped the product and people weren't having a great experience.
[00:48:58] Tony Fadell: So what did we do? We went back to the drawing board just instantly after we figured out we didn't get it right, and we designed a special screw. A custom screw, much to therin of our investors. They were like, why are you spending so much time on a little screw? Get out there and sell more. And we said, we will sell more if we get this right.
[00:49:20] Tony Fadell: And it turned out we did with that custom little screw, there was just one screw in the box. It was easy to mount and put on the wall. So if we focus on those tiny details, the ones we might, or that we may not see, and we look at them when we say, are those important or tho or is that the way we've always done it?
[00:49:40] Tony Fadell: Maybe there's a way to get rid of. So my last piece of advice is to think younger. Every day I'm confronted with interesting questions for my three young kids. They come up with questions like, why can't cars fly around traffic? Or Why don't my shoelaces have Velcro instead? Sometimes those questions are smart.
[00:50:04] Tony Fadell: My son came to me the other day and I asked him, Hey, go run out to the mailbox and. . He looked at me puzzled and said, why doesn't the mailbox just check itself and tell us when it has mail ? I was like, that's a pretty good question. So they can ask tons of questions and sometimes we find out we just don't have the right answers.
[00:50:31] Tony Fadell: We say, son, that's just the way the world works. So the more we're exposed to something, , the more we get used to it. But kids haven't been around long enough to get used to those things. And so when they run into problems, they tr immediately try to solve them and sometimes they find a better way, and that way really is better.
[00:50:55] Tony Fadell: So my advice and that we take to heart is to have young people on your team or people with young minds because if you have those young minds, they cause everyone in the room to think. Picasso once said, every child is an artist. The problem is when she or she grows up, is how to remain an artist. We all saw the world more clearly when we saw it for the first time before a lifetime of habits got in the way.
[00:51:27] Tony Fadell: Our challenges to get back to there, to feel that frustration, to see those little details, to look broader, look closer. and to think younger so we can stay beginners. It's not easy. It requires us pushing back against one of the most basic ways we make sense of the world. But if we do, we can do some pretty amazing things for me.
[00:51:54] Tony Fadell: Hopefully that's better product design for you. That could mean something else, something powerful.
[00:52:01] Tony Fadell: Our challenge is to wake up each day and say, how can I experience the world
[00:52:07] Mike Parsons: better? Big question to bring at home. Mark, you did not disappoint, nor did Tony. Fidel. He encouraged us to continue to embrace our childlike mind, to ask better questions, to challenge the status quo. It brings us full circle to.
[00:52:26] Mike Parsons: Why we've gotta have radical solutions and just avoid the safe bet Mark. There is no better way to finish a product show, a product series than that kind of thinking. I have to ask you, after all these homework assignments you've been given by Tony Fidel, Where are you putting your mind towards?
[00:52:48] Mark Pearson Freeland: You know what, today is a bit of a tricky one because I really appreciate the simplicity, so to speak, of starting with an idea that solves the customer problem.
[00:53:00] Mark Pearson Freeland: So right at the very beginning, and what are we doing? What are we trying to solve? But at the same time, I really appreciated the direction that Tony took in the book with regards to building yourself. Building yourself, working on yourself to become a success. And therefore, to help you know yourself, stay either diligent and disciplined and hold back that monkey mind, but also be the good leader and build up a good team.
[00:53:27] Mark Pearson Freeland: So today, Mike, I think I'm gonna have to lean towards the idea of building yourself first.
[00:53:35] Mike Parsons: What about you? I'm gonna say not only has that been a very powerful theme for this show, but for the entire series is that if you want to play in the product game, you're actually playing in the people game too, and they go hand in hand, right?
[00:53:53] Mike Parsons: That's
[00:53:54] Mark Pearson Freeland: true. That's true. And that's very much what we were seeing with Mari Kagan as well, wasn't it? The idea of getting those as well as Jim Collins, getting the right people on the bus. It's an intrinsic and very important value, isn't it?
[00:54:06] Mike Parsons: It's, it is an essential co-dependency. You are always playing a team sport, even if you think you're just the inventor.
[00:54:13] Mike Parsons: I think what we've discovered on this series and with this show in particular that it's far from that it's a team. So Mark, I want to thank you. I want to thank our members and our listeners to for joining us here on Show 219 with the book Build by Tony Fidel, the Man behind the Nest thermostat and the iPod to name a few products, and our lessons started with straight.
[00:54:37] Mike Parsons: Talk. He's gonna be that mentor in a box. And he started us with Come with a radical idea. Don't be safe. And if you want to do that, you need to build yourself first. You need to fight for a problem that's actually worth soldering. Figure that out. And then you'll have a business and always bring yourself back to fresh thinking, almost a childlike mind so that you can continue to challenge the status quo.
[00:55:03] Mike Parsons: And that is what we are definitely doing here. We're challenging ourselves and the world around us. Here on the Moonshots Podcast. We are desperately trying to be the very best version of ourselves, and we are doing it together. We're learning out loud because that's how we rock and roll here at the Moonshots Podcast.
[00:55:21] Mike Parsons: That's a wrap.