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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire (00:04):
Welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire, and we talk a lot about changes that are needed in higher education. And thankfully, after decades of talking about it, we are finally moving in a direction away from the traditional sense of higher education and pushing everybody into a four-year degree and understanding that we need for people to have unique skills and allowing people to pursue their passion and their skill set and solving the problems that exist in the workforce and the skills gap.
(00:36):
And we have a guest today, Dr. Bill Coplin, who has been writing and thinking about these issues and has been a leader in advocating for a transformation in higher education for literally 50 years. And Dr. Coplin, I can't thank you enough for being here.
Bill Coplin (00:53):
Glad to be here.
Jason Altmire (00:54):
You have been a passionate advocate for a shift from the liberal arts education model that we have had in this country for decades, really for centuries. And you've written 110 books and articles about teaching and about education. I should say that currently, you are at Syracuse University. You're the Laura J. and L. Douglas Meredith Professor for Teaching Excellence at the Maxwell School and College of Arts and Sciences at Syracuse. And you are also the founder and professor of the highly successful undergraduate policies major at Syracuse University.
(01:33):
So I can't think of anyone better to ask this question to just describe the moment that led you ... Because you've spent your entire career on this path. What was the one moment that propelled you to advocate for change in higher education?
Bill Coplin (01:48):
When I was a freshman at a liberal arts college, Washington College, I went to college to get a job and figure out how I was going to support myself. And in my first class, the English professor was teaching Chaucer, who doesn't even write in real English. And I'm saying to myself, "Why do I have to learn Chaucer?" I know students say, "Why do I have to learn this?" Well, I said, "Why do I have to learn this?"
(02:16):
And then it occurred to me over the years that what the colleges were set up was to create scholars with the assumption that somebody who's scholarly will be successful and a good citizen. I don't see any real evidence for that. And from then on, I got my PhD. I published a lot. I was very successful as a traditional researcher.
(02:43):
But once I got tenure and full professor, I decided I'm not going to spend my life writing this research. I still did a lot, but I'm going to try and help students get to what most of them come to college for, which is to be prepared for life and a job and citizenship, too. It should be also citizenship.
(03:06):
So I saw this disconnect, and I've been working on it ever since. So you could say this started in 1956. And then as I got past my publishing requirements, I focused more and more on this, created a major at Syracuse University based on the skills to do well and do good in experiential education. And then started working to try and get high schools to do more of this. And the major is not even being successful, but the freshman course is taught in about 60 high schools around New York State and other where, and Vietnam, too.
(03:45):
So I've had experience trying to make this change. And when the teachers are first introduced to the idea, there's resistance, because most of them are historians, were trained as a historian. And some reject it, but most keep doing it and like it.
Jason Altmire (04:04):
I think one of the things I was most interested in in preparing for this and reading some of what you've written, especially most recently, you described the traditional liberal arts model as a bait and switch, and saying it promises career preparation, but then it veers towards trying to make scholars out of the students, as you just referenced. Maybe if you could just elaborate on what you see as the long-term impacts this has had, not just on college completion rates, but especially how it's perpetuated what you have said is a cycle of elitism in higher education.
Bill Coplin (04:38):
Yes. I feel like the majority of students are commoners who think they think education should have a purpose other than love of learning. The faculty and the principals of liberal arts think love of learning is actually an achievable goal. And if you think about that, it's really arrogant, because what about if I love learning how to fish? Does that count? No. What counts is what I call studying the study of, study what previous scholars have said, which is being a monk.
(05:20):
And so this creates a tremendous divide between the professors and the students. And the professors are frustrated that the students want to do this, and the students don't really understand what's happening. And those that are successful will play the game and figure out how them make the professors happy. And some of them will also maybe become scholars, which itself is not a good thing, because there's a glut of PhDs on the market who can't get jobs. So it's not really good job training even to be a professor.
Jason Altmire (05:57):
That's exactly the point I wanted to get to, because it not only affects undergraduates, which is self-evident based upon what you just said, but it has a broader socioeconomic ramification. We focus a lot on the skilled trades on this podcast. And I know you've talked about how this model that you're describing contributes to disparities that we observe in the job market today, especially regarding the skilled and semi-skilled trades.
Bill Coplin (06:24):
Right. I have a 10 skill sets, 38 skills, and really they're professionalism, ultimately. Training, having a student come from, "Why am I learning this," and, "I don't like school" or, "I'll do it," to having the skills that make them a professional, whether it's a professional, a dentist or a carpenter. And I think the school systems are set up to frustrate so many students that it's counterproductive.
(06:54):
I also think it has a huge impact on K through 12 education, because K through 12 education in the most part is training to go to college. It's more liberal arts all the way down to kindergarten.
(07:09):
Now, there's obviously opposite trends like vocational schools, and there's a big emphasis on career preparation, but it's still marginalized in most high school curriculum. And I work a lot in the Syracuse city and they have career education, but the bulk of the effort and the bulk of where the successful students are are in the traditional algebra II, calculus, all that kind of stuff.
Jason Altmire (07:35):
I mentioned incredibly, you've written over 110 articles and books, but your most recent book is called The Path to Equity: Inclusion in the Kingdom of Liberal Arts. And you focus on a little bit on the idea, or a lot, actually, on the idea of diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a controversial topic in higher education, but you take a different look at it. You're thinking more about the diversity of thought in addition to diversity in other ways.
(08:06):
Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by diversity, equity, and inclusion, what you mean by that?
Bill Coplin (08:11):
The DEI people have created courses and required freshman courses at Syracuse and around the country where ideas about appreciating diversity and the problems behind it are presented and discussed as if it was more scholarship. So you have to read articles. I have students who are peer mentors in helping the faculty do this, and they're very frustrated, because they make the students, these freshmen read this stuff that rationalizes.
(08:45):
And it assumes that if you intellectually have a discourse, the person's behavioral will change. Well, I don't see any evidence for that. I don't get that at all. So I've advocated sending kids in the community and doing more hands-on things.
(09:04):
The other thing, while faculty are definitely on the left, most faculty, when it comes to curriculum and students, they're very, very conservative. They're almost right-wing when it comes to that. And so there's this disparity.
(09:22):
And then the other problem is, the students who come to college who've taken AP courses avoid the liberal arts curriculum. So you have a bunch of freshmen come in who are already taking upper-level courses, except not the mediocre student who didn't get these college credits in high school. So they have to go through the drill, which is uniformly disliked by most students, except for the few that love learning for the sake of learning. And that's great if they love learning academic learning. That's not a bad thing, but it's not sufficient.
(09:57):
So then the rewards, if you read their newsletters and publicity output of the university, it's all about this scholar discovered this new cell or did this or did that. It's always about the very high-achieving academic performer. It's rarely about a student that does a lot of community service who might have a 2.5.
(10:26):
And also, when they want to give awards, they always put what's your GPA in there. Oh, well why did they do that? Well, I think that's wrong if it has to do with community service. Why are you asking?
(10:41):
So what happens is the honor students, the top performers get all the accolades. How does the commoner feel about that? Well, I'm not good enough.
(10:51):
I think it's very destructive, and most of especially the kids who don't come from rich families of college-educated kids, they don't know what's happening when they get there, when they get into college. They're very frustrated. And I think it contributes to some of the stress and anxiety that is rampant. So it just has very negative consequences and it hurts the mediocre students.
(11:20):
For example, there's been an emphasis at Syracuse on doing more internships and experiential credit, but what they try and convince kids to do is to do a research project with a professor. Okay, that's a good thing. And that the student has a boss. That's a good thing. Other than that, it's not a good thing, because it's just training them to be scholars, not doing things. We need doers, not thinkers. We have enough people pretending to be thinkers by writing their thoughts, right?
Jason Altmire (11:52):
Well, on that exact note, in your career, you've taught and advised, I'm assuming, tens of thousands of undergraduates in 50 plus years of teaching. But you've also interacted with, according to one area, I read about you, 40,000 high school students that you've interacted with.
(12:12):
And I'm just interested, based on those interactions, how do you perceive the readiness and eagerness of high school students in adapting to a more practical skill-based education system as opposed to the traditional liberal arts education?
Bill Coplin (12:28):
That's a great question, because you would think it's so obvious it wouldn't be a struggle, but they've been so socialized into believing GPA and academic, it's quite a struggle. And the word skills doesn't always resonate.
(12:43):
In fact, a provost said to me, "You should stop using the word skills and use the word competencies." Competencies, they have competencies. And my position is that, no, no, that's professor talk. Competencies is professor talk. Skills is student talk.
(12:59):
But there's quite a lot of resistance. Typical conversation is student comes in, "I don't know what I want to major in." And I say, "From my perspective, you need to develop skills like Excel and working with people and teamwork, so it doesn't matter what you major in." You know what their next question is? "You think I should major in sociology?" That out of my mouth had no impact whatsoever on what they were thinking, because they have to get a major. And so the system's set up to sort of not emphasize skills.
(13:34):
It's changing, as you mentioned, it's changing, because the students won't put up with it anymore, plus the threat that kids are going to stop going to college. So the colleges are trying to adapt, but the faculty can't get out of its own way, because they've been socialized to believe their goal is to make monks. So that's where we are, but it's changing.
Jason Altmire (13:58):
I said in your introduction that you pioneered the policy studies major at the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse University. And on the surface, when you hear that, that does not necessarily give the full scope of everything that you've just described, that might not be the logical landing pad for somebody who's advocating in the way that you do.
(14:23):
So how has the major that you've established there served as a model or a stepping stone in aligning education with the practical needs and career aspirations of your students?
Bill Coplin (14:35):
Thanks. When I set it up, that was my goal, to make it practical and useful and put a lot of experiential stuff in. I didn't give tests and readings. The freshman course is you find a problem in society, here's some tools, make a proposal. So they were immediately not forced to learn any content. They had a process, problem solving.
(14:59):
The course was very popular. It generated a lot of majors. And today, the alumni are the strongest alumni in the university, and they're always talking to the dean. They've gotten fantastic jobs in all kinds of areas, and the major is growing. And I think it's because of skills and experience is what they want and looking for, and if they can get their act together enough to understand it and take it, they've been very successful.
(15:32):
The other thing I did, which sort of relates to this, is I decided I didn't want to use graduate students because they didn't take the course. So what good were they? So I used kids who took the course first semester of their freshman year and I got 20 TAs who assisted me the next semester. They each had eight or nine students they mentored, plus they graded them on a very strict rubric for papers. And those TAs became a force.
(16:06):
So I'm doing 40 of them a year. Think about it. They're recruiting more. So it's a built-in recruiting device, and they become ... Outsiders call them a cult. The policy studies major are a cult. And they are obnoxious because they think they're better than everybody else, and they are better than everybody else, because they do their stuff on time and take responsibility and can manage.
(16:31):
So this group illustrates the point of experiential education, being a TA, and skills re: going through the practice again, because the thing about skills is, you have to practice them. You don't take a test and have a skill. You practice them and maybe you get better. It's been remarkable.
(16:53):
And the university academic leadership, although they disagree with me about pretty much everything, they can't deny the students. When they need somebody, they'll call me up and say, "I need somebody to do this." And I say, "Joe. Here, here's Joe's email." Because it has a reputation of our students take responsibility. They're just ahead of the other students because they've practiced skills.
Jason Altmire (17:22):
I think a good way to bring this to a close, and this has been a fascinating discussion, is given your 50-plus years in higher education and the change that you've advocated for and change that you've made, with the benefit of hindsight and the body of work that you've amassed, if you were, let's just say you were to propose a starting point for educational institutions ready to transition from the traditional liberal arts model, where would you suggest they begin and what steps should they prioritize to make a tangible impact along the lines that you've described?
Bill Coplin (17:58):
The lower level courses should be always applied. So you don't teach chemistry as a discipline. You teach environmental problems and how chemistry is related to it. So you make the coursework in the freshman and sophomore year something that's personal for the students. And that's happening, but not as much as it should happen.
(18:20):
Then the other thing is you sell experiential learning, emphasizing the need for internships, and also in the summer, don't be a summer camp counselor after the first ... First year is okay.
(18:35):
And the other thing is, they need to recognize the huge impact student activities have on students. It's amazing. You can see when students are in some group doing something, how much energy they have, and then watch them in a classroom and they're going to sleep, because they're not engaged. So student activities, experiential learning, focus on skills, lower division courses emphasizing making it relevant to the student's interest. And then they can go in the junior and senior year and teach more academic stuff if they want to.
(19:08):
25% of the 120 credit should be experiential. That's how I would change things. And it is happening, but it's a tug of war, and the faculty in the power positions don't want to let it happen and actually don't like it. They're holding their nose and doing it because they may lose their job.
Jason Altmire (19:32):
Thank you so much. Our guest today has been Dr. Bill Coplin. He is the founder and professor of the undergraduate policy studies major at Syracuse University. He's also the Laura J. and L. Douglas Meredith Professor for Teaching and Excellence at the Maxwell School. And he has a new book among his many writings, The Path to Equity: Inclusion in the Kingdom of Liberal Arts.
(19:57):
Dr. Coplin, if somebody wanted to learn more about you and your work, how would they do so?
Bill Coplin (20:01):
My website is BillCoplin.com. That's the best thing to do. BillCoplin.com. Coplin spelled like Coplin, C-O-P-L-I-N, dot com.
Jason Altmire (20:13):
Dr. Bill Coplin, thank you for being with us.
Bill Coplin (20:16):
Thank you.
Jason Altmire (20:24):
Thanks for joining me For this episode of The Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at Career.org and follow us on Twitter at CECUED. That's @C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.