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Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
What does it take to get to the next level? While a career in law can open doors to unexpected arenas and sometimes even courtside seats, it's mastering the work, earning trust and building genuine relationships that earns the confidence of your peers and clients. In this episode, our guest shares how she used her JD and NBA to build her own path from global tax firms like KPMG to leading the National Basketball Players Association. She takes this inside her journey of navigating bold career pivots, bringing empathy and authenticity into leadership, and continually re-imagining what is possible. This is the a a Law student podcast. Hey, Manny. Hey, Chay.
Manny Fernandez (00:49):
Hey,
Todd Berger (00:49):
Todd. Hey, Todd. How's it going? Good. How are you guys doing?
Manny Fernandez (00:53):
Good. Surviving.
Todd Berger (00:55):
Yeah, that's that time of year. Yeah, to do it. Well, there's light at the end of the tunnel, but speaking of energy, I think something that was really cool kind of energizing in a sense was your interview that we're going to get to hear shortly. Chay, really cool guests, done some really interesting things, things I think that a lot of our listeners dream about that DAR could have that kind of career. Who did you talk to today?
Chay Rodriguez (01:21):
I talked to attorney Tamika Tremaglio. She is the former executive director of the N-B-A-P-A, which is the players association or union for NBA players. And she also worked for Deloitte and KPMG, which I think that will be interesting to a lot of attorneys that are seeing the headlines that places like KPMG are now opening up to the possibility of having attorneys in one state, specifically Arizona. But I think there are other couple of states that allow that as well. So I think that would be interesting to them. So she was just an amazing woman to speak to and I wanted to speak to her because Todd, as you know, last year we spoke with an executive director for the Pro Women's Soccer League. So this kind of gave me a completely different perspective on a organization that is a little bit more established, has a little bit more star power, and how someone who maybe is not considered a hundred percent of a celebrity navigates getting to that point to be selected to be in that position, but also is able to wield their own knowledge in those rooms that are full of people who yes, have a name, yes, have an amazing talent and skill, but also want to learn from you.
(02:53):
And I think it was just amazing to hear her experiences with that as well. So I'm excited for everyone else to hear it too.
Todd Berger (03:01):
If you guys are ready, I'm ready to get into it.
Chay Rodriguez (03:05):
Attorney t Maglio, you pursued both a JD and an MBA back when even a dual program that's structured was not common in universities. What was your rationale for doing that?
Tamika Tremaglio (03:18):
It's quite interesting. I think partly because I had said I was going to be a lawyer since I was five years old, so I knew I needed to do that. My father told me I was negotiating my allowance at a very young age, but at the same time, I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs and understanding the business side of the law, understanding how businesses worked, was really intriguing to me and it was something that I had a passion for. Most people go to law school to avoid the numbers and most people go on to business school to avoid writing. And I actually liked both, but I really had a passion for the numbers side. And so yes, you are right now, almost 30 years ago, I only know that because I'm celebrating my 30 year anniversary this year from law school. It wasn't something that was very common, but I have always been a person that if it hasn't been done, that just means there's an opportunity to do that. And so I went to the dean and I asked could I please pursue this? And after my first summer actually of doing a clerkship and they helped me to make sure that that happened and it was probably the best thing I ever
Chay Rodriguez (04:20):
Did. Well, first congratulations. 30 years. That is amazing. What do you think one degree taught you that the other did not? Where did it kind of fill the void in for you?
Tamika Tremaglio (04:31):
Quite frankly, I think one of the things that makes business school unique from the law, at least during the time when I was going, is that business school was very much about teaming and being with other groups and making sure that you were engaged in what other people brought to the table. So it was a lot of diversity of thought. And it also was really technical, actually doing calculations, et cetera, handing in homework, which was novel in law school because you just didn't do that in law school. In fact, I always said that for those who procrastinate, law school is awful for it because you can sort of wait until the very end. Clearly that was very different. So the teaming environment, the constant to do and keeping up with things was very different from law school where it was individual work quite often, particularly in the first couple of years. And it was wait until the end. And let's see how much of this you have absorbed.
Chay Rodriguez (05:24):
Do you think having both gave you a leg up in the hiring market when it kind of came to graduation time?
Tamika Tremaglio (05:30):
I absolutely do. So at the time, one in four professionals in Washington dc, which is where I am from, were lawyers and I had to really think about what was going to make me unique, what was going to make you stand out. And I definitely think that that did it also gave me a lot of different options because then I could just go practice law, I could go on the business side, I could do something that was a hybrid in between. So it certainly opened the gates to be able to do a number of different things.
Chay Rodriguez (05:59):
Can you talk to me about your first position out of law school?
Tamika Tremaglio (06:03):
Yes. So my first position out of law school and business school was in the tax practice of KPMG. I was doing transfer pricing work, which is essentially looking at money and assets that are being sent offshore in a way to avoid taxes. And Section 4 82 was pretty popular during that time period. So to some extent, while I didn't know it then it really was forensic in nature. But as you can imagine, tax as it still is now is pretty black and white. And having the business ground, the legal background, I sort of love the grayness. And so there was a big case that came up at KPMG that was in the forensic and litigation practice, and I asked if I could do a rotation in that practice. And I had the opportunity to do that. And I remember thinking my other job in tax may not be there when I come back.
(06:52):
And in fact, I looked at the tax job as doing a clerkship you would do out of law school, right? Because obviously being in the big five at that time, it was very intense. You worked a lot, you learned a lot. It was an amazing training ground. So I looked at them very similarly, and from a compensation standpoint, they were also very similar. So it was really a great opportunity to do that. And then when I came across this forensic engagement, it was a great opportunity, but it was scary. I had student loan debt and I was like, is my job going to be there? And I could just remember my mother saying, the fruit's always on the limb, and you got to sort of take risk and be a little uncomfortable sometimes. And that was probably my first entree into that as well. The rotation, which was supposed to be three months, turned into about nine years, and I loved what I did every single day.
Chay Rodriguez (07:42):
There's been a shakeup recently, KPMG, the gained approval to practice law in Arizona, making it one of the first of those big four accounting tax and consulting companies set to operate a law firm in the us. What do you think that opportunity would've done for you if it was available for you early on in your career, even at Deloitte for one of those big firms to fully take on a legal practice? Do you think it would've changed your trajectory at all?
Tamika Tremaglio (08:09):
I don't because quite frankly, I love doing what I was doing and that is being able to marry business with law. I will also tell you Chay, that for a very long time, probably at least 25 years, many of the big now four firms have been able to practice law outside of the us. So I could have always taken on that opportunity to go to London and do that, or Spain or where else because they have been doing that historically. However, with it being now in the us, I don't think it would've changed me because I think where I excelled was where there was the intersection where I could sort of dabble in the law, but really understood the finance piece behind it and how things worked and how you arrived at certain numbers. That's what excited me, and I left the law side to those individuals who loved and had a passion for practicing law.
Chay Rodriguez (09:01):
And I know that there was a little bit of a transition role that you had in between KPMG and Deloitte. Can you talk a little bit about that transition and when you knew it was time for you to leave
Tamika Tremaglio (09:12):
KPMG in 2003, Enron happened and as a result, you couldn't do a lot of what you were doing within the big five environments because I was outside of that in the advisory practice. So predominantly it was audit and tax, and that's when a lot of the consulting firms broke off from the big four. And so I had a decision to make and I could have gone with the team that left KPMG and I thought, wow, this may be a good time to start something. And so Huron Consulting Group was started in Washington dc It started in Chicago from the demise of Arthur Anderson, and they didn't have a DC office. So it meant that I had an opportunity to start something in a place with people that I really loved working with on a daily basis, and it was a private company at that time, so I had so many experiences to take it public, et cetera.
(10:04):
I also will tell you that oftentimes when you work in the larger firms, you rest a little bit on the laurels of a larger firm with significant brand recognition. The biggest thing that I learned at Huron is that no one knew it, right? So that meant that I had to work on not only my brand and what I was going to be known for, but I had to bring out the brand of a firm that people didn't know about. At A-K-P-M-G or Deloitte, you could sort of sit back a little bit and you wait for the phone to ring because something happens with an audit client or a tax client, et cetera. And Huron taught me to really focus on building that brand what you wanted to be known for. I will also say that the CEO at that time, Gary Holdren gave me opportunities that I believe had I stayed within the big four, big five environment I may not have ever received.
(10:55):
And I tell students, and in particular people that I mentor often, Carla Harris came up with this pie and I did not create this, so I learned it 15 years ago. So I continuously talk about it, and she is an amazing woman. She wrote Carlos Pearls and she says that for minorities in particular, and women, we oftentimes are so focused on the performance side because we want to be really good at what we do. That's how we grew up. That's how we are constantly evaluated. So if you got an A, then you knew you were good. If you got a B, okay, that's good. If you got a C, you're like, ah, that's average. And you don't want to be average, right? But that's how we're used to being validated forever. And law school of course is no different. The challenge is when we get out in the workforce, we do the exact same thing.
(11:41):
We take the technical things that they ask us to do, the briefs, we have to write the analysis that we have to do, and we are graded on them essentially. And so that means you keep your head down, you get it done, do it on time, et cetera, and then all of a sudden you look up and you're like, wow, people are being promoted and moving right along, and I'm still in the same position. How could that be? Well, the reality is, as she put it, PI is performance, image and exposure. And if you aren't focused on image, so how do you show up when you come in the room, not necessarily how you're dressed or et cetera, but it's about the confidence that you exude when you start speaking. Do people want to hear from you? Do they know what you're talking about? That's part of this bigger pie.
(12:23):
And then there's the exposure piece. What are you getting exposed to? For the first five years, my head was down. I was getting things done, I was turning in things on time, turning in things early. I was the first to respond to emails, all of those things without realizing you need to get out there, you need to start to build relationships, you need to start to network. And so at Huron, that was when that circle became more complete for me. Now mind you, I didn't know the importance of it. So people were sitting there and they'd say, oh, we're going to go golfing today. I am like, are you kidding me? Do you know how much work we have to do? I'm not going golfing. We're a happy hour. Who's happy We got work to do? Right? You just couldn't think that way. But the reality was is you were getting exposure to different people.
(13:05):
And the CEO at Huron at that time invited me to go to the masters. And quite frankly, I didn't know exactly what the masters were. I knew I dabbled a little bit in golf. I thought, oh, maybe I'm going to be playing. Can you imagine? Which is hilarious because clearly that's not happening. But he exposed me to a different world of being able to build relationships with clients and to make a difference in a different way that's exposure. And as professionals, that's where it's so important that we focus on those things. Not only is it part of building your brand, but it's a part of understanding how things work because it's not just about the work, it's also about the relationships you build. It's about how you show up in the room because quite frankly, she, you nor I are ever going to show up unprepared. We are always going to show up knowing our stuff. That to me is a cost of admission that's expected of us. It's the other things that put you ahead of things.
Chay Rodriguez (13:58):
It's like the executive presence and then the who do you have executive presence when you walk into the room, and then who do you know when you get in that room? And I think this is just amazing because I struggle with that so much. I've always thought, well, my work should speak for itself. Well, my work should be the thing that gets me promoted. And it's often not. It is like your smile. It is asking, how's your dog? People remember those little things. They like you and they want to work on those bigger projects with you. And like you said, they already know that you can do the work because you do always come prepared. But if they don't like you, they won't ask you to work on it.
Tamika Tremaglio (14:34):
Because the truth is people can decide to work with people that they like. I mean, at the end of the day, all things being equal, right? You're bringing the same skillsets, et cetera. People are going to choose to work with people that they like. So is my client thinking, who do I have to fly to Singapore with on a matter that's 24 hours on an airplane? I'm not going to choose somebody that I don't care for or that is difficult to work with, et cetera. When you get to make the choice,
Chay Rodriguez (15:00):
And that kind of makes me think about this theme that I stumbled across when I was researching you, the re-imagining the possible. And I know that's something that you asked everyone in the MBPA to do when you joined, but it also seems to be like a theme of your career possible re-imagining the possible. And that is almost something that you have to do when you dedicate yourself to helping people and the way that you have, whether it be business or clients, athletes or otherwise. Can you talk to me about that re-imagining the possible, when did that become something that you communicated the others to get to what your relationship would create and cultivate? When did that become the slogan or phrase that you would say, you know what? I'm going to say this to a client so that I can know how to help them.
Tamika Tremaglio (15:53):
Yeah, I will say for certain, I took this on and going to the MVPA, but the reality is I have always talked about doing a little extra. What can you do to be unique or different? It used to be in my Deloitte days, I used to tell my boys every day, you have to be amazing. Being good isn't enough. And someone told me, not someone, my mother told me that you have to do more, you have to be more. You have to do more than everybody else. And so to some extent I could see other people that were doing it. Then I thought, wow, if people can see it, if I can see it, then I can be it. Why not imagine being something else for other people so that they can see it. I always noticed doing that little extra was something that always set me apart.
(16:41):
As someone were bringing in cookies from the store, I was like, we're going to bake cookies or we're going to bake baking or we're going to do something. It was like that little edge that made the difference. So for me, it's always been, okay, let's agree that something has been done this way, but let's just reimagine for a second doing it differently. And the MBPA, for example, really my goal was to build generational wealth for the players. It was really important to me when I took on that role as how do I create generational wealth for them into the future? So now they had their arm of their commercial arm where they could enter into licensing deals, and then you also have the union. So on the union side, I thought, well, how about if they could somehow have some ownership in these teams? So how about if they can invest in private equity that can invest in teams? So it was critically important to me that make sure that we got that through, that we had that done. And that's what we did in the latest CBA for the men, was to make sure that they had the ability to buy into teams that could provide them equity through the union.
Chay Rodriguez (17:46):
What was the most challenging part of negotiating the 2023 CBI do you think?
Tamika Tremaglio (17:51):
Probably re-imagining that you had to do things a little differently. I think also because the relationship between the union and the NBA, it always been, well, obviously everyone worked well together, et cetera. I think it was more contentious because you've got to get things done. And I really thought at the onset that it's important that we have a relationship with the MBA, that we understand what each of our goals and objectives are, that we understand that we all want to grow this pie bigger as opposed to I want my piece of the pie to be bigger and your piece of the pie to be smaller. How about we grow the whole thing? And in order to do that, you really have to establish relationships. So I spent a lot of time really building a relationship with Adam Silver, building a relationship with the NBA. We had event in our office where we brought the leaders from each of our respective departments, so our chief of player engagement, our chief of global with the NBA's chief of global.
(18:47):
And we did some fun activities so that we would get to know each other better because now we are heading into what most people consider like war, right? In a CB, A negotiation. I want to know what they're made of. I want to know what's important to them. And I think if you can come from a place where you both can win, that's a really great thing. And that was harder teaching people that you have to do things a little differently or trying to get everybody to understand that even when we talk about the commercial arm, which was known as think four 50, so think 450 players, and they had won their group licensing rights back in 2017, which meant that now they were going to be able to pursue large licensing deals, which was money that went directly to the players, but they didn't appreciate that nobody knew the MBPA, everyone knows the NBA, but the reality is the MBA is the marketing arm of all of this.
(19:39):
The MBPA is actually the players. So for me, it was important to get out that this is really where the players are. So yes, the logo man, which is the NBA logo of Jerry West, everybody knows that and you don't even have to show up and you could get a million dollars for putting up this logo. I wanted the black and gold basketball to have just as much weight and to be able to do that. And so trying to get people to understand that you had to build this brand, oftentimes people would say, well, why is she doing that or why is she there? What's the importance of that? It was about building this brand so that the players could make more money, have more money, as opposed to understanding that you were trying to be out there or do these things. It was just a matter of trying to get people to understand what the end game was. And sometimes that was a little harder than just going in and doing things business as usual because that's what people expected and we needed to do things differently.
Todd Berger (20:40):
We'll be right back after this.
Chay Rodriguez (20:42):
What core doctrinal classes do you think you had to pull from in order to make the negotiations work?
Tamika Tremaglio (20:51):
You know what? It's funny, I talk about this quite often and it was the only class I am injured in law school was negotiations. And I pulled from that and it was for sure what we had to use every single day. It's these chess pieces moving, and so for certain I had to pull from that. I think the other piece of that is that I also recognize partly from learning this through negotiation is where your gaps are, where your weaknesses are. I knew that Adam had been at the MBA for 20 years, and while I had worked with the MBPA for almost 15 years at that point and then worked on the women's CBA, I had those experiences, but I knew that I could bring the things that I'd learned outside to the table and that became important. So knowing your strengths, obviously, which is what you learn in negotiation class, but also knowing how to sort of plug in wherever you have weaknesses known or unknown, I think are critically important too.
(21:47):
So that was for sure. One, obviously contracts is critical, so you can't forget that. But I think a lot of the business courses were great too. So I could run a sensitivity analysis in my head if they came up with something. I was like, let me see if I plugged in this number, if I did it this way, those things actually, I could do that pretty quickly. And I think that that was important too because sometimes people were so focused on being right that they weren't focused on what's good and what's going to be the best outcome. And I always had to keep that in the front of my mind, and I think that became critically important as well.
Chay Rodriguez (22:21):
It makes you always remember that you have to kind of check yourself and check your ego. How does that come into play when you are working with high profile athletes who are high achievers or high profile companies consulting with them that are making millions and billions of dollars? What are the differences in working with the two and what are the differences in you as an attorney or a consultant in working with the two that you kind of have to make
Tamika Tremaglio (22:53):
Sure balance out? The reality is I think it really comes back to the overall objective. And I have found myself always to be in a place where I'm serving other people. And my check has always been, how is this of service to 'em? And even if you get it wrong, quite frankly, I have always felt very good in whatever effort I put forward because my intention at the end of the day was to do what was best for them. Now you are typically dealing with people who have egos just like you are perceived to have, right? To be quite honest, done so well, and you, you're right that people sort of bow down to them and think the world of them rightfully. But I also think particularly when I had the opportunity to work with the players is that they were such phenomenal human beings. They wanted to give back to individuals. They were so kind and quite frankly, they like me oftentimes were misunderstood. And so it was a great opportunity to work with people that I truly, truly cared about. It was real people as opposed to a widget or an asset that didn't have emotions and empathy. So that's what I think differentiates it. But I think in terms of my overall role and expectations, it was that I was serving them. I was living a life that was in service to other people.
Chay Rodriguez (24:22):
When you think about being in service to other people, I think of the WNBA who is kind of considered the lesser of the two, although I don't think for very long you worked with them in terms of their CBA as well with the WNBA gaining so much traction and leagues like Unrivaled coming out to offset some of the players' income during the off season, how do you think law students can take advantage of leagues like that popping up to break into sports law if they wanted to?
Tamika Tremaglio (24:55):
Oh, absolutely. And the thing that's lost on people quite often is doing pro bono work. Of course, we all want to be paid, we all want to, but there are so many opportunities to do things that are unpaid that give you the exposure, et cetera. The first work we did with the W-N-B-P-A was pro bono work at Deloitte, we have just like many law firms, et cetera, we have the opportunity to do so much in the pro bono space. And that's what we did. My first entree to them was to do work pro bono, and that makes a big difference. Obviously there comes a time when they can afford to pay you and need to pay you and they appreciate that, but you've also built that trusted advisor relationship that they know you're going to do what's best for them without being concerned about being paid.
(25:44):
I think that's important. And you're right, the W for certain is up and coming. There are some amazing things that are happening, including with unrivaled. So getting that experience and that exposure I think is critical. And yes, individuals who want to get in that space should look for opportunities like that, but they exist everywhere. I mean, you were talking, you have UFC fighting, you have golf, you have major league fishing. I mean, there are so many ways to get engaged in sports, but you have to be willing to, one, check your ego at the table, right? Because there are lots of people who are greater and bigger and better than you. But then two, you got to be willing to serve and to perhaps serve when you're not going to be compensated for it.
Chay Rodriguez (26:25):
Moving on your newest venture TA Ventures, seeing that as kind of being your latest iteration of re-imagining the possible, can you talk a little bit about TA Ventures and why you went that route?
Tamika Tremaglio (26:38):
Yes, of course. So we started TA Sports Ventures right after leaving the MPA, partly because I did want to continue re-imagining the possible, and I had the opportunity to do that in the Middle East, and that was to look at what they were doing around sports cities, what sports they were bringing to the Middle East, how they could go about doing that, how do they engage the constituents in that? And as you know, a lot of their 2030 vision included wellness and activities around sports, and one of the things that we found very quickly was they love fishing. And so understanding how to bring more activities around fishing was something that was critically important. And so as you probably read too, my son is a pro bass fisherman, and so I've learned a lot in that space and knowing how things work, it did give us an opportunity to reimagine doing something like that in the Middle East as well. And so it was really exciting to just talk to them and think about doing things differently, whether it was bringing things that we've been able to do well here in the US to the Middle East or whether it was just getting them to think about all the possibilities of sports very differently. And so that's been really fun to actually do that.
Chay Rodriguez (27:48):
I did read that your son is taking out NBA and NFL players to partake in that pro bass fishing sport, which I think is actually brilliant. As soon as I saw that CTAI was like, oh my gosh, Travis Hunter. I immediately thought of the Heisman winning player, Travis Hunter. I know he loves fishing, and I just thought, wow, this is another golf for Steph Curry or golf for LeBron, what they do in the off season that they could also take into retirement and after. I know so many people that play professional sports, they feel like an emptiness when they feel like they can't do it anymore, and giving them a new outlet is not only valuable, but it can grow that kind of fringe sport. Is that something that you guys are looking into?
Tamika Tremaglio (28:35):
Oh, absolutely. And even at the MBPA, our players, they're clearly more than just basketball players. They do so many things. And so understanding that was critically important. So Major League fishing had actually come to us at the MBPA to talk about doing tournaments, et cetera, because there are so many players that like to do that. And so yes, my son is actually starting a show called The Lure, and he is taking out professional athletes and talking about their experiences. And as you know, it's typically a very calming experience to be out on the water, but it's still really competitive. And so it's about what that experience is. I think he has his first one in April, so I'm really excited to see that too. It'll be really great. That
Chay Rodriguez (29:18):
Is so amazing. I hung up my Tweety bird fishing rod at seven because it just wasn't for me. But I love that this is an outlet for those athletes and I am excited to see that show. And just like you mentioned, those athletes are so much more than just basketball players. You are so much more than just the leader or the former leader of the MBPA, so much more than just a pioneer in the academic space to do a JD and an MBA at the same time, so much more than just a mother. I appreciate that to me through this episode and hopefully through our audience you become a mentor. And thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Todd Berger (30:02):
We'll be right back, Chay, what are the things that you will remember after this interview later in your career? It'll stick with you and it'll resonate. Anything that surprised you?
Chay Rodriguez (30:15):
I don't know if that's necessarily surprising, but I know that one thing that will stick with me for sure is how she talked about one, taking different experiences from, I call them vanity jobs and then different experiences with jobs that may be require you to do a little bit more. She talked about having to rest on your, or being able to rest on your laurels when you're at a place with a big name. So when you're at A-K-P-M-G, when you're at a Deloitte, you maybe not have to, not that you don't have to work as hard, but you can rest on the fact that you are with KPMG and Deloitte when she had to pivot and she ended up working with a consulting firm that was just starting out, she had to wear so many different hats in order to really move forward and move the company forward.
(31:06):
And that's kind of where she was able to hone different skills. And I think she was so gracious in sharing with us that that is really a key way to build your resume on top of highlighting and underlining how important it is to network and be likable because people want to work with who they like, and if they don't like you, it doesn't matter how much work you do, how much knowledge you have, you might not get tapped for those bigger projects or promotion or next steps. And I think that's valuable for us to hear because I think we're just of a generation where they drill in the work and sometimes hard work doesn't get you where you want to be or even where you should be, but that piece of connecting with the people that you work with so that your name can be spoken in rooms when you're not there is what's going to help you.
Todd Berger (31:59):
Yeah, absolutely. What about you, Manny?
Manny Fernandez (32:02):
There's few industries I think out there in the law that are as exciting to a young attorney as the sports law industry. My law school has a big sports law program. Shout out to my professor, professor McCann, who runs a great sports law program at the University of New Hampshire, and it attracts a lot of people, but the deal is that there are only so many jobs that are going to be as exciting and as satisfying and as fulfilling as what we heard about on this interview, and we got the perfect blueprint for how to get there. I really liked how she mentioned that the hard work, like Shea mentioned, it gets drilled into us, but the hard work is just the price of admission. It's kind of a given, but it's all the other stuff that people forget, namely like being personable. I mean, it especially stuck with me, her analogy or her example that is a client really going to want to sit on a plane with you for a really long time if you're not personable. There's so many other things. And it also spoke a great, again, like Chay mentioned that she was able to wear all these different hats, speaks to the caliber of an attorney. I think this was a masterclass into just not just how to be a great employment attorney or a great tax attorney or a great business person, but a masterclass into how to be kind of an exceptional lawyer overall.
Todd Berger (33:39):
Yeah, absolutely. I share a lot of those sentiments. I took four things away from it just kind in order. One was she talked about she was one of the first people to get a JD MBA and it wasn't an established program, and she went and created it herself. So if you're hearing this and you're a law student or a young lawyer, you're working at a particular office, if you have ideas, you should try and act on them. Don't wait for other people to create the opportunities for you here with somebody who went and created their own destiny in a lot of ways.
Chay Rodriguez (34:13):
And I think Todd, not to cut you off on thing two that you took away, but she talked about just the opportunity to meet people that advocated for her, put her in the right rooms, allowed her to take the hard work, step on that and use that as her step to do the next thing, like a mentor. And she talked about it one in that instance, getting the MBA while, getting the jd pursuing that and her dean allowing her to do that. But then also as she was I believe in the space with Heron and Deloitte, she also had a really great manager as well. So I think that that just speaks to also being able to lean and trust people who are in positions of power around you that when you are likable and are personable to Manny's point, they're going to want to help you and you have to put your pride aside and accept the help and accept the opportunities that they present to you.
Todd Berger (35:12):
Yeah, I'll make that my new number too, but it's find mentors, find people who you're going to connect with who are going to champion your career and help you try and shape what your future's going to look like. You guys both talked about, I think a big takeaway was just likability. I think that could be a hard thing because you don't want to be a pushover and you don't want to be the person who's just telling everybody always what they want to hear, and then you kind of get that sort of reputation. It's like, well, that makes you sort of unlikable, but there's a way to be professional. And yet at the same time yourself and someone who's not purposely obstinate or difficult to deal with. And it seems like she certainly recognized the value in that. And just my last thing I want to take away from that is she talked about how she went from this established firm to this new entity, and there was risk involved in that.
(36:10):
There's risks that are reckless, and then there's risks that are calculated. There are people who I think have careers that only reach certain levels because they're kind of not willing to take any risks. You shouldn't. Maybe people take wild swings and it works out tremendously well, but I understand if people don't take wild swings because that doesn't seem to make sense to them. But you see how somebody took a calculated risk and it led to everything that came after that. It led from this one firm to this other firm to ultimately her being at the NBA Players' Association and now her own shop. So I dunno, I feel like I'm kind of along enough in my career that I could say that there's a value in the calculated risk. It's not reckless, right? But if you take the calculated risk, oftentimes that allows you to get to the next level in your career.
Chay Rodriguez (37:09):
Yeah, I think even her speaking about being at the NBA PA and having to work in terms of building that as a brand and how her experience earlier in her career at Heron almost prepared her for that. If you think about it, had she not had that experience and she just went from KPMG to Deloitte, would she have had the tools necessary to go up against Adam Silver, another attorney and say, no, we need this black and gold and our rim and everything to be its own logo. We want to license this. When you walk in a room and you see the NBA logo, you already know that they're getting a million plus dollars, but it needs to be this way for the players in order for them to be able to get more money as well. Would she have had the skillset and the knowledge, and maybe she would have, but that firsthand experience at Huron so early on when she had to grind and go through, I just think that was so valuable. And I think it also speaks to when you're taking those calculated risks or when you're in those risks, and it may not seem like it's working out, you genuinely don't know what that's for. Probably until so much more time later. And even then, if you're not sitting with the a lost new podcast, would to look back to see that? Probably not.
(38:37):
So yeah,
Manny Fernandez (38:39):
I think to both of your points, the risk thing is such a tough thing probably to a lot of our listeners, to anyone who has had to work with lawyers or legally minded people, we are kind of notoriously bad at taking risks. We're measured. Lawyers tend to Exactly, if you ask any why is it always that when there's a startup company or a new business, the lawyer is like the 40th hire because everyone's go, go, go, and the lawyer's like, Hey guys, we need to sit down and think about this. Are we sure we want to do this? Lawyers are notoriously risk averse, and it will give you such a phenomenal leg up. I think if you have a little bit more of an open mind about taking risks, and that will open these kinds of doors for you. I think now, like Todd said, there's a difference between a calculated risk and total uncertainty, but it's still such an important thing that kind of, a lot of people forget.
(39:39):
We seem to think, if I just do the work and I just stay here where I'm comfortable, everything will work out. But you never know. Those risks are what can directly propel you to your dream job, to your dream career, to amazing to working with the NBA Players Association. And so yeah, I think her story in particular speaks a lot to that, and it speaks a lot to her mentality because I really also was struck by how she said one of the approaches that she took when negotiating deals was how do we make the pie bigger for everyone? It was a kind of very out of the box way of thinking that you can only get if you're a person who has really been out there taking these kinds of risks and making these kinds of big decisions. And if you're stuck in your same cubicle forever, will you have that kind of mindset? Will you be as effective of an attorney? Will you eventually grow up to be such a inspiration to so many people? I don't know. It's a question to ask.
Chay Rodriguez (40:48):
And I think too, I think talking to her, she did say had things not went the way they went, and I'd been forced to decide if I was going to Herron or what the next step was. I could have seen myself being there at KPMG for 20 years. My parents had their career for 20 years. That's what I knew. That was all I knew. So I think now, especially, man, you hit the nail right on the head with times being so uncertain and a lot of us graduating in a environment where certain jobs are no longer there and no longer option to us and our next steps. I think it was so important to hear this and to hear, hey, there are some things that can force you out of what you thought you knew were going to be your next step. There are some things that are going to force you out of your cubicle that you would've been okay sitting in for 20 years. But that doesn't mean you won't be as impactful. That doesn't mean you won't have a great career, and that doesn't mean that it's not what you're supposed to do. So don't get discouraged in terms of having to pivot right out of school.
Todd Berger (41:59):
And I think the right out of school thing is really important. Chay, too, you might be less inclined to take those risks when you have kids and more expensive mortgage and things like that. I don't know where Tamika was in her life when she made that switch, but I think that's a really good point too, because there's definitely people who say, well, I'd love to do it, but right. I'm just not in that place in my life where I can. So for those of you who are listening, maybe you're at a point in your career, early in your career, some opportunities to present themselves and might be worth it to sort of think through what the downsides are, what the upsides are, and whether or not you're going to take the calculated risk. But the one thing I'll tell you is that listening to the A law student podcast is not a risk. It's not even a calculated risk. It just makes sense.
Manny Fernandez (42:50):
That's right. Well, I think the risks, we'd be totally kidding ourselves if we said that the risks start after law school. You already took a risk coming to law school, and even in our guest's case, there's now so many, if I'm not mistaken, there's so many joint JD MBA programs out there. She was kind of a trendsetter in that sense, right? It worked out excellent for her, but that was a risk too, because I cannot imagine doing a JD and an MBA at the same time, especially when you're the one blazing that trail. So that was a big risk, and it was one that worked and that paid off, and I think we have to be very honest with ourselves and realize that the risks we've been taking them now, whether or not that scares you or whether or not you embrace it and see it as an opportunity is entirely up to you. But that's also probably what's going to distinguish a good lawyer from a great lawyer.
Todd Berger (44:05):
Thank you to our guest, Tamika Tremaglio for joining us for this episode. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the a a Law Student Division website and become a member. We want to make sure we're making the best content for you. Let us know what you'd like to learn more about by telling us in a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Finally, we'd like to thank our production partners at Mora Media and to thank the A law division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our final episode of the season. See you then.