Kristoffer Diaz

We talk to playwright of The Elaborate Entrance of Chad Deity playwright Kristoffer Diaz!

Show Notes

Intro: smush-faced dogs, sleep procrastination, Meyers-Briggs, Eneagram, Amazon, Oujia board conspiracies, the mystery of parenting.
Let Me Run This By You: Boz gets rained out of Disney and entered the Land of Forgotten Teslas.
Interview: We talk to playwright and professor Kristoffer Diaz about NYU, Gallatin, Tisch, John Leguizamo, growing up Nuyorican, being addicted to theatre, ambition, and the future of American Theatre.

Creators & Guests

Host

Gina Pulice

Co-host, Writer, Actor, Director

Host

Jen Bosworth Ramirez

Co-host, actor, writer, consultant

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?

UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT:
1 (8s):
I'm

2 (9s):
Jen Bosworth Ramirez.

1 (10s):
And I'm Gina Paci.

3 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

1 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.

3 (21s):
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

1 (31s):
How's it going in there?

2 (33s):
Good. I came to the closet because my dog is so annoying.

1 (38s):
Oh. So that she would stay away from you or stay in there with you?

2 (41s):
Oh no, I don't want her in here. She snores so loud as you know, that it's just, although she's having surgery next week, so we shall see.

1 (49s):
So does everybody, does every dog of that type need to Correct. Have surgery?

2 (54s):
They should. If you wanna prolong. It's so dumb. It's so dumb. And I, I, it's just such a point of, I have so many feelings about it, but mostly self shame. I mean, that's what I feel. But yeah, so all dogs, smush, face dogs, pugs, boxers, frenchies, all the weirdos if you want their, them to live a longer life, just like adults with, with sleep apnea, it's the same exact thing. If you wanna, and I have a c p, if you wanna live a longer life or your dog to live a longer life and they have that, you need this surgery. And it also is supposed to affect their mood.

2 (1m 37s):
Right. Because like, if I don't breathe, if I don't wear my C P A P, I'm like a miserable bitch all day and I never

1 (1m 44s):
Right. Because you have such interrupted sleep. Right.

2 (1m 47s):
Who wouldn't? Yeah. You, it's like, and, and, and I think that it's so interesting, it's just like with the brain, like we don't know a lot about the brain as much as like people have not, I think the recent, the connections between sleep, brain, function, mood, all the things, like people have studied it, but I think like, because we're such a work, work, work culture, like sleep is not as much studied at all. Yeah. People are like, ah, sleep. Right? And you're like, no dude. Like, you will lose your mind if you don't sleep. So, and you'll feel like shit and you'll be a jerk.

1 (2m 23s):
Yeah, totally. I, yeah, I, I'm, I'm having this battle right now in my family because I'm pretty much the only person in the house who really values sleep and who kind of like, wants to protect it and everybody else is like, you know, it's the same thing of like, I feel great tonight. I know I should go to bed, but I don't want to, I don't care. I don't remember how I felt this morning. I don't remember how terrible it was to get up and go do my thing. So I guess I'll just make the same mistake every single night.

2 (2m 54s):
Yeah. And I, and I, I think it's like my dad was, his depression manifested in, he would stay up really late like 3:00 AM watching television and eating food and like then would of course sleep in until noon and then he would schedule his clients afternoon. It would just like a terrible cycle also. Yeah. To be honest, I don't blame him in the part of, he wa I think it was his only time free from being berated by my mom, either in his head or for reals. And so he was of course his time to do what he wanted to do, which was watch idiot television and eat like cookies or whatever the thing is.

2 (3m 40s):
So I actually don't bla you know, it's, it's a tricky thing because when you are feeling like you need time and you are in a family system, what do you do? Like, you go do secretive ass

1 (3m 51s):
Shit. Correct. And there is even, I've seen several times on social media, like there's a name for, in some other language, there's a name for what they call, you know, self-sabotaging, sleep procrastination. But there's, it's like one word for it, right? And it's, it's a, it's truly a phenomenon. Yeah. Because if you have to be up and on, and I mean, to be a therapist is to be on, like, you can't show up and half-ass your therapy job. So your dad had to be on, and he worked a lot with kids, which is even more sort of high stakes that when you get home and you're a family person and you have to do family things, you know, whether it's chores or family time.

1 (4m 35s):
Anything that's stressful to you, you want everybody needs. In my experience, I have never met anybody who didn't need a certain amount of time that's to themselves. And introverts have it way worse. I don't know if your dad was an introvert or not, but introverts really need to have time to refuel.

2 (4m 52s):
Yeah. I think you're so right. And I think also, like now I'm learning that, you know, just like everything on the spectrum, like the introverts, there's like introverted extroverts and all kinds, basically everyone is Yes. Is fucking different. It's so crazy. But like, I just took, I had to, I'm doing this self-love work workbook, which actually I really like, I'm just like doing it slowly and it's for women and I got it on Amazon, whatever. I got it from your nemesis. And then I, I always think, I always say, Ooh, don't order from Amazon. That's Gina's nemesis. And Miles is like,

1 (5m 27s):
Well that's, that is really coming back to bite me because the movie that my son just got cast in is being produced by Amazon. So he's like, no more negative talking about Amazon. I said, okay, I even went to Whole Foods yesterday. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to play

2 (5m 41s):
The game. Whoa. You're playing the game. I mean, you know. Okay. Well I guess it's like, again, we all make sacrifices based on our systems and what they need. Okay. So

1 (5m 51s):
Any and where you stand is where you sit. Yeah.

2 (5m 53s):
Right, right. Where you eat is where you shit eventually we all shit where we That's right. That's, let's just be honest about it. So anyway, so what did I say? What did I got from Amazon?

1 (6m 6s):
I don't, you got the workbook and you're doing a self-love.

2 (6m 9s):
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Self-love workbook. And in the workbook it tells you to take your Enneagram test and your Myers-Brigg test. And I, I am an E F T, whatever. I don't know. I I, the point is it's all on a spectrum. That's what we're learning. Like every single goddamn thing is not binary. And like you, we are all on this spectrum. I'm like a, I'm the protagonist type personality type. I don't even know what the fuck that means. Okay. It's just part of this 16 personalities.com, my pers it's all, it's all marketing. And then, then they want you to pay 29 99 to get an 18 page detail report where I've already paid probably I upwards at a hundred thousand dollars in therapy to do the same.

2 (6m 54s):
Yes,

1 (6m 55s):
Exactly.

2 (6m 56s):
I don't know. But I did not buy it. I was happy because like in the past I might have been like, oh, lemme just buy it. And then I'm like, nah, dude, 1999 times like a million people doing this, these people are fucking rich off this. No. Like I feel like as I get older, I'm like, who do I wanna make rich off this? Like who do I wanna make rich off what I'm buying? And I'm like, not these people. Like I'm sure there's a, there's therapists that look at some of the, the stuff tests and stuff, but it's not, it's a company.

1 (7m 24s):
Not to mention the people who are practitioners, like people who proctor those exams. I dunno if proctor's the word they use, but like my mom is a Myers-Briggs certified whatever person Oh. Like should to give. And they all say you can't do it online, you have to do it with a person. And I don't really know what the difference is, but she says there's a difference. By the way, there's no way you're an E N F T if that's what you were trying to say.

2 (7m 46s):
No, I don't know

1 (7m 47s):
Where Miles is. Miles is probably a T but you're not a A t.

2 (7m 52s):
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah,

1 (7m 53s):
If you're, if you're an E N F P that that's the same as me, I think you must be an E N F P.

2 (7m 58s):
Yeah. Okay. Okay.

1 (7m 60s):
I'm sure. So, and yeah, so it's like extroverted. Well

2 (8m 4s):
My book is right here. Let me grab it. Hold on. I gotta grab it. Oh, I gotta grab it. Yeah, sure. I'm tell you what it says. I,

1 (8m 9s):
When she comes back, I'm gonna ask her if that's a painting or a wall hanging or a curtain.

2 (8m 18s):
Okay.

1 (8m 18s):
It's something. It's cute.

2 (8m 24s):
Okay. And the other thing is the fucking tests are so poorly created online. Some of them, like in terms of the, the computer programming that I had to take some of them twice. And then by the time you answer the same question twice, your answers are changing. Do you know what I mean? It's just

1 (8m 42s):
Poorly. Yes. Yeah.

2 (8m 44s):
You know what I mean? You're like, wait, now I wanna change my answers and I'm crazy. And okay, so I took my 16 personalities.com and cause my

1 (8m 54s):
That's a a, that's a bad name. My 16

2 (8m 57s):
Socio identity d i d disorder. Okay. Myers Briggs personality, whatever. This is like some bastardized version of the test. Sure. And it literally says I'm an e n FJ dash T protagonist type. That can't be right.

1 (9m 14s):
Wow. I fj Okay. Actually I buy it. Yeah, well I buy it.

2 (9m 21s):
And then the Enneagram fj, okay, that motherfucker, you can't get free anywhere. So I was like, fuck you. I don't give a fuck Enneagram, I'm not, I'm not gonna pay $39 to find out I'm a two A one with a wing of seven. Go fuck yourself, is what I say. That's what type

1 (9m 36s):
I cannot, I can't wait till we all die. And just put an end to this questions about whether there's ghosts and spirits and if tarot and astrology and I wanna know, I just wanna know,

2 (9m 49s):
I, you know, that along those lines, I wanna know if the fucking Ouija boards are real. Because lemme tell you something. It's made by Milton Bradley or whatever the fuck. But then there's all these conspiracies that, like, there's witches that work at the Milton Bradley, fuck

1 (10m 5s):
Is

2 (10m 5s):
The shit real or not? Tell me

1 (10m 8s):
Witches that work at Milton Bradley. I haven't heard that. That's a good one. I mean, you know what the answer,

2 (10m 13s):
If they have a team of like, I'm

1 (10m 15s):
Sure what the answer is is this was originally an actual part of Wicca and then a bunch of, you know, colonizers oppressors just said, Ooh, let's steal this and make money off of it.

2 (10m 27s):
But I mean that's like America right there, right there. Like, let us steal anything indigenous or that has any, and just fucking make a buck off it. If you wanna do that. Just the prime example of capitalism is the Ouija board. That's what we're saying. I love it. The Ouija board is like that. Is it? So anyway, yeah. That's what's happening with me and doing this self well.

1 (10m 49s):
So wait, but like you were, I thought you were gonna say something about how doing these affirmations is like helping you, giving you a more positive outlook. Is it, it's not affirmations. Oh

2 (10m 60s):
It is. I, no, there are some affirmations in there, but, but I, what it is, is it's making me stop for like 10 minutes a day and do something else besides hustling and networking. Yeah. Trying to improve myself even though this is a self-improvement, but it slows me down. And then I just sit and listen to some tunes in my office, which I adore. And then I do this little book, which was written by someone. I have no idea. I didn't research shit. I just bought the book on Amazon for 1999 cause I, I literally looked up self-love workbooks

1 (11m 34s):
And there you go. It's right there. It's got a cool cover. So what's going on with me? I would say things are going pretty great for me, which is something I, you know, I am what, listen, I am a cynic, but I'm superstitious. I don't like to say when things are going well because I, and I feel that jinxes you, I'm

2 (11m 54s):
Writing that down. Your personality type is a superstitious

1 (11m 58s):
Cynic. A superstitious cynic. Yeah. Absolutely. Another great title for one of my forthcoming books. But no, I'm doing, we're actually, listen, parenting is such a mystery. I have no idea how you do it. I don't think anybody who's ever done it could really legitimately say, this is how you parent. It's so chaos. It's so catches catch can, it's so like, your kid is this one day and they're this the next day. And like you just have to ride the wave. And recently, you know, one of my big like tent poles of my approach to parenting has been, you know, make them be responsible for things that are in their own life because that's what they're eventually gonna have to do.

1 (12m 45s):
And what has happened in my family is that was my instinct. That is not my husband's instinct. I capitulated to his way, which was just doing everything for the kids. I got into this rut of like doing everything because I thought that he would think I wasn't a good mom if I didn't do everything for the kids. And then I found myself all on the fuckety fuck because now it's like they don't know how to, you know, my son and I know this is common and whatever, I don't care. I don't care if this is common. I don't care if this is how it is for everybody else. Yeah. Doesn't matter. Doesn't work for me to have my child before taking one bit of effort to look for something just asks me where it is.

1 (13m 28s):
You know? Yeah. And it's like, they, they always make fun of me because I end up extrapolating everything. Like yeah, you just assume that everybody else is there to like do your life for you. And that's not gonna work. It's not gonna work for me. And actually you don't know this yet, but it's not gonna work for you. So I've really been working so hard. I'm getting, Erin has kind of come around to my side and understanding about like personal accountability. Like how can we expect them to be accountable for things when we are always there to sweep everything up Right. And pick up the pieces, you know? And so because of some shit that has gone down recently, we've been really trying to embrace this like, well why don't you give a stab? Try give a, what is this expression?

1 (14m 8s):
Take a stab at it first. Take a stab at it and if you can't figure it out, you can come to me and say, here are all the things I've tried and you know, now can I have some help? Yes. And I don't know if it's that or what, but one of my children has seemed to have made a miraculous, like, I don't expect it to last, don't get me wrong. I understand these things comes and fits and starts. But I have a child who I feel has almost never taken on a lesson and just like, sure. Incorporate it into their lives. And now that person isn't doing that. And I'm kind of like, wow. So I don't, so I, I don't know if it's because things are kind of going well right now, so therefore people feel like it's okay and safe to take on their life and that that'll change when things start to go bad again.

1 (14m 59s):
I don't, I don't really know, but I'm just trying to enjoy it because I'm getting, look, I'm getting experiences that I've never had before. Like the biggest one is just a self reflectiveness. Now I know you can't be self, I say that and you can attest to this too, as people who like really didn't know ourselves at all until so late in life. Sure. But at the same time, like I've never heard this kid be introspective and say, do you think that maybe the reason that this happens to me is because I do this and I'm going, I'm inside. I'm just vibrating. Like, yes, I do think that, I do think that I'm so happy you see it now.

1 (15m 41s):
Yes. So that has given me a lot of relief recently. And I'm, and I just, it's very gratifying when things have just been kind of broken in a certain way when you start to see them sort of men.

2 (15m 51s):
Yeah. And also like, I think the, the, the, the, the other thing that I'm, I'm, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking is like, like take the fits and starts. It's okay that this is going good right now because listen, it's gonna go bad again because that's life. But like, I feel like especially as children and we both were, that felt scared and neglected and all the things like you just, the constantly waiting for the shoe to drop is not helpful. In fact it's, it robs us of moments where the kids, the husband by the way, miles says the exact same things. Where should I find this? And I had to re I'm doing the same thing, which is, you are not, and I do it very un gracefully.

2 (16m 36s):
I'm like, don't fucking ask me another fucking question unless you fucking look for yourself. Which is probably not the best tactic.

1 (16m 42s):
Sorry.

2 (16m 43s):
That's alright. For a husband or a child. But yeah, I'm just like, fucking stop. And then he's finally like, Hey, I looked for that here, here, here and here. Do you have any other ideas? And I, I am still annoyed, but I'm less annoyed. And also I'm realizing it, I don't realize I don't put shit back in the same place. Like it's just not my, I'm not one of those people that like, and, and so I partially can have some compassion for him and then also I'm just like, look for the fucking shit. And now he's gotten so much better. But I'm telling you it has taken 12 years to get to this point.

1 (17m 19s):
Yeah.

2 (17m 19s):
12 years maybe 15.

1 (17m 21s):
Yeah. And in some ways it's probably harder for you cause He's a fully formed adult. He was a fully formed adult when you met him. Yeah. You know, so that's even more sort of undoing. Yeah. That's having to go on over, over at your house. But you know, over here I feel like listen, different things work for different people. I, I I think for some people really failing and hitting bottom is kind of the only way that they can start to learn and take, take accountability. For some people it's really following just a completely different path than maybe is expected or that that person thinks they should follow or that you think that person should, should follow. Like it really is up to everybody to figure out their own, you know, to use the overused word journey.

1 (18m 6s):
It really is. Because like for example, not every kid is meant to go to college. Not every kid is meant to have a, a traditional, typical career. You know, basically like not every kid is born a little capitalist ready to go conquer high school. Right. And go to an Ivy league college. I mean, it's just literally can't be for everybody. Even if you do live in this area. No, it can't. Where like, that's sort of the norm as everybody gets into these amazing schools. It's like, it's just not for everybody. And trying to make somebody fit into a mold that they can't fit into doesn't help them, hurts them, hurts you, hurts your relationship. Like,

2 (18m 44s):
Hurts your pocketbook too. Like fucking a, like if you try to do the things to get that child or person to conform, you usually end up spending a shit ton of money too.

1 (18m 56s):
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing about like capitalist par parenting is that you, you sometimes are really sucked into this idea that there's something that you could buy that will make your kid better or, you know, or classes or trading. And it's not that that stuff isn't good, but it, you can't do the thing that I feel like I've done a lot, which is like, throw something at the wall and hope that it sticks. Like that doesn't work either. I would've been better off if I could go back and do it over again. I would've just stayed. You know, like, like you do when you're a therapist facing a psychotic person. Not to compare anybody to a psychotic person, but that you wanna stand next to the person and not face them head on.

1 (19m 37s):
Yes. And let them know, okay, so this is your journey and I'm gonna help you figure it out. But you're gonna have to lead the way in, you know, in some ways cuz it's you and it's your yourself and you're unique.

2 (19m 51s):
Hey, lemme run this by you. So

1 (19m 55s):
I, I heard a little bit about your day that you were evacuated and I heard that you went to Disney. Oh God, my mind is really focused on the fact that you went to Disney. I thought you hated amusement parks. Did I get that totally wrong? Oh

2 (20m 7s):
No, I, I'm scared of scary rides. So Disney has zero scary rides.

1 (20m 14s):
Yeah.

2 (20m 14s):
Right, right. Yeah. So that is right. So it is, it was, I love Disney. I hadn't been in 20 years, but I really allowed myself to get swept up until we got like fucking torrential Oh so bad. And I bought the wrong size poncho from, from Jeff Bezos. And so my, I bought a child size poncho so my head wouldn't fit through the hole. There's a picture of me, which we should put in our liner notes of me in this fucking poncho where my head won't go through the yellow hole, the hole. Anyway, that was so my hilarious friend has like a magic. I know my friend has a magic key or whatever it is. I don't know. She gets a season ticket and I, I don't, so she goes a lot.

2 (20m 55s):
And I, and I, we went, we planned this day. It was ama I had a blast. The, I had to, the key is staying hydrated, not eating a bunch of sugar and going home when you're ready. But it did rain. But I, what I thought about it was, we all need, I needed a day where I was like, I don't know what the fuck this is gonna be, but it's gonna be interesting shit to look at. And very detail oriented adventure, you know, cuz Disney thinks of everything. Like, they're just so detailed. We didn't spend a tremendous money on food and we just like did our thing and it was so fun. But then getting home was so bad, bad.

2 (21m 38s):
So just, I've never seen LA like this. I've never seen at the midsection in West Hollywood, four feet of water and fucking idiots in Maseratis trying to speed through four feet of water in an intersection all around LA You're like, you don't know what's happening here. You are going to die. And I called it the land of lost Teslas because going home on the 1 0 1 to Ventura, all these Teslas tried to make it. And when you get into Ventura, Ojai, it's hilly. It's all fucked up. The computers must have died or something. And the Teslas, because the water got so high, I don't know.

2 (22m 18s):
But as I was finally going home the next morning after having to be Eva, like evacuated, the, you just saw all along the 1 0 1 fucking Teslas, like 25 Teslas were, and I was like, what the, and they had to be rescued from their motherfucking Elon Musk mobiles because I ga I think the computers died or something. But I'm like, why are all these Teslas? And then I read in the news that the fire department had to come and rescue all these motherfuckers either in little cars like minis or Teslas. And I was like, what? So it was wild here. Like, you're like, what?

1 (22m 55s):
I'm sorry to laugh. I'm sorry to laugh the Teslas. But I mean, it's just like,

2 (23m 0s):
It's, it's basically the thing

1 (23m 2s):
We were just talking about before. I think the more money you have, the more of a barrier there is between you and like, imagining what's gonna happen next and drive, driving a Maserati through a full four feet of water is the perfect example of that. Like just the mindset that you and, and those cars cost what, like $250,000? Like the mindset, mindset that you would a, have that much money to put into a car and b then choose to drive it when it's raining like that,

2 (23m 32s):
That also they're like blowing red lights because they want to get their precious self and their precious Maserati home to their precious mansion. And I'm like, you're gonna die. Like, who cares about all this, this? Like, we were like, what are you doing? And they couldn't imagine that it was not gonna work, right? Like they couldn't say. So they, I mean, I, and some of them got stuck and they were like, looks like they were, it was not good. And also they're not good drivers because they've never had to learn a skill in their goddamn life. So they were like, just barreling ahead in four feet of water. I'm like, what the actual, so finally, because we're so stupid, they just have to close the streets down because nobody can, you know what I mean?

2 (24m 14s):
Like, because people are so dumb. They're like, I'm gonna get home, fuck you. And then the, and then the fire department's like, actually you're not going anywhere. Like, fuck you,

1 (24m 21s):
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. Have they ever made a movie that's one of these like end of days type movies. But all of the people who are left trying to figure out what to do are people who have no actual survival skills. Like pe you know, like Beverly Hills, right? Like Beverly Hills bailout something where they're trying, where it's, it's the situation is dire and nobody has an assistant and your cell phone doesn't work and your car doesn't work and there's no restaurants opening all of the place, all of your sources of power that you are used to for what however long don't work. And you suddenly have to really figure out how to use literally just your own body.

2 (25m 6s):
I think they would eat each other. I think they would eat each other. I, I do, I think these people would eat each other. Like literally, I, I'm talking cannibalism. I'm talking like, or like try to steal their fancy clothes from each other. It would turn into some kind of carnivorous. I, I mean they would, I don't know what else. Or just sit there and cry for like hours and like panic

1 (25m 35s):
And

2 (25m 35s):
Then maybe,

1 (25m 36s):
And the camera and the camera pans back. And it's really just a Japanese game show where today on the podcast we are talking to Christopher Diaz. Christopher has such a long and illustrious resume and career that I couldn't possibly cover it all in this intro. Suffice it to say he's a brilliant genius. He is a playwright. He currently is head of admissions at NYU Tish. He is just, he has a great story. And rather than me telling you how great a story is, why don't you just hear it for yourself.

1 (26m 18s):
Please enjoy our conversation with Christopher Diaz. Okay. We always start the same way. Congratulations Christopher Diaz, you survived theater school.

5 (26m 34s):
Thank you. Thank you. I survived it a bunch of times.

1 (26m 37s):
Yeah, you survived it a bunch of times. And like you have so many degrees. I I How does a pr I mean, mean are you still paying off all of your loans?

5 (26m 47s):
No, because I had the opportunity to do a little bit of television. Yes.

2 (26m 56s):
Oh you

5 (26m 56s):
Did. You did clo you did television,

2 (26m 58s):
You worked your ass. You're, you're like my hero. So forgive me if I get crazy.

5 (27m 5s):
That's very sweet. I mean, the weird thing is that, I mean, we'll go, this is like a around the corner, but the, I I've never had an episode of television that I wrote Make it to the Air glow. Rent was a different kind of thing, but I didn't write that. I wrote like the screenplay for it. But I've made more money doing that than I have doing, you know, the things that I actually, you know, do and, and, and get some, you know, recognition for. So TV's TV is like the way that you pay off your student loans.

1 (27m 37s):
It's insane. I mean it's wonderful and you deserve it because it, I always say with any type of television or film, it's always back pay for something else. It's back pay for the things you know that you did that didn't earn you any money for the longest time and for all the time between jobs. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a blessing though to, to get those big paychecks. So, okay, so you went to Tish a bunch of times and now you teach there?

5 (27m 60s):
Well, yeah, yeah. I went to Tish one, I went to, so I went to the NYU twice. I started at the Gallatin School, which is an individualized study program, which is not technically a theater school, but I made at a theater school, okay, wait,

2 (28m 13s):
Have to stop you because every person I know that is brilliant has said a similar version of this thing did not exist. But I made it so because I, I knew that I needed it to be a certain way. So the individualized study program, when you said you made it a theater school, tell just, can you talk about that for a brief moment? Because it gives me much hope.

5 (28m 37s):
Yeah, absolutely. So the indivi, so Gallatin School of Individualized Study, I still teach there or I teach there now. It's this incredible program. It started in the seventies and basically you can come, I mean the, the around nyu the way it's described is you can do whatever you wanna do and it's not actually true, but you can do many things that you wanna do. And if you're driven and you know the area that you wanna study and you know the ways you wanna study it and the school provides courses already in the things you wanna study, then you can create something very specific to you. So it happened to be that, the thing I wanted to do when I came into school was theater. I didn't necessarily know what it was.

5 (29m 18s):
I did theater in high school, but I did like the kind of high school musical theater where like, you don't even read the whole musical. You get like the old tans wit mark books that just had your part. So I did Oliver, I've never seen Oliver, but I was the artful dodger. Like I, I still don't know what Oliver is, even though I did the show. Me too. But I knew my parts right? So I did that,

2 (29m 44s):
Which is oh, which is so amazing and I think you should adapt the musical Oliver for screen. And then it's like comes full circle Hercules,

5 (29m 52s):
It's full circle or I should do, there's a, there's a group called the Rude Mechanicals who do a play called Method Gun that is streetcar name desire without any of the five main characters in it. And it's brilliant. It's more than that. It's brilliant, but maybe they got it from, from from that kind of thing. So anyway, so I knew that I, I wanted to do theater. Like I had that experience in high school where you go in and it changed your life and like it feels right and then all that, anyway, there's more to that. But I, but I, I'll fly through cause there's a lot to cover. And then I got to nyu. I knew I wasn't, I wasn't gonna be an actor because I had never auditioned and I didn't have head shots and I didn't like wanna do any of that stuff that I saw my friends who I came in with doing.

5 (30m 35s):
So I just wanted to sort of explore everything. So luckily being in the Gallatin school, I got to take a bunch of arts workshops where I got to take a directing class and an acting class and a bunch of writing classes. I took a stagecraft class where we built the sets for a production of the Rhymers of Eldridge. Like, so like, you know, we did all this, I did all this stuff. And then at the same time what really changed my life was I was in the city and I went to see something like 150 to 180 shows a year. I was at the theater three, four times a week and basic, and not just theater, like any, you know, live, live stuff.

5 (31m 16s):
And it was like if something came along and people were like, I have these tickets to go see something. Do you want a free ticket? Do you want a $6 ticket? Do you want a $3 ticket? I was like, yeah, of course Christopher, I didn't know what it was, but I just saw it.

2 (31m 30s):
Did you, was that in you? I'm obsessed. We're both like former therapists, turned actors, turn writer, all the things. So I'm sort of obsessed with this idea that, what was it about theater? Like you said a little bit like you liked it, you felt good, it was, but what was it that made you go to a hun a hundred and or 200 shows a year? What is the thing that you got out of it that you were willing to devote so much time to that?

5 (31m 56s):
Yeah, I was an addict. I was like kind of literally an addict. Like I saw, I grew up seeing stuff like, like kids theater and local stuff. My mom was a big, big, big Broadway person and we didn't go see a ton of Broadway, but we saw, we saw some, but I saw a bunch of stuff, but I, I didn't have that feeling for it. Then I did it and you know, got that acclaim of being on stage and like people cheering for you and whatever. And that was cool. But then I, what really happened was during my junior or senior year, I saw two shows. I saw the, the Gershwin musical Crazy for You that Ken Ludwig wrote, which is just all singing, all dancing, you know, bright Eye.

5 (32m 41s):
Like my wife would say like Anne Hathaway eyes like super earnest, like wide open we're gonna put on a show. And I was just like, what the fuck is this? Excuse me. I dunno if I'm allowed to curse or not. But I was like, what the, is this okay, good. So I curse a lot. So the, so I was like, what is this? Like, it just, it just blew my mind. And I was, you know, 17 years old. I had grown up in Yonkers, which is the first suburb north of the Bronx. I'm a Puerto Rican kid. So I was going to see these shows in like my hoodies and baggy jeans and Tims and then seeing this like George Gershwin thing and being like this, I love this. Like I wanna make this. And so I saw that. And then the other one that I saw was John Leguizamo's spic.

5 (33m 24s):
And I know Desmond also talked about there'll be a lot of overlap between stuff that I say and Desmond says, I'm sure, but you know, but John Leguizamo, you know, so I had that experience with that show where I was watching the show and I could tell like this guy was taking parts of who he was and turning them into characters, right? It was cause I was like, oh, like this character's just like me. That character's just like me too. This character's just wait a minute. Like how can one person be all of those things. Like I just had that experience and then I had the experience at the end of it where he bows and looks out at the audience and like points just out and he's just pointing, oh, he can't see me.

5 (34m 5s):
I don't know that. But he points and I'm just like, oh, like he knows like he, he knows that I needed this, right? He made this show for me. So it's,

2 (34m 13s):
It's like, yes, I do know. And it's like the same thing I f i I feel with watching like Zamo when I was young and also knowing that the connection. So it's something about seeing this sort of all-encompassing experience mixed with being invited into the process of now sort of what I interpreted by your, the pointing was, now it's your turn my friends

5 (34m 39s):
Kinda Yeah.

2 (34m 41s):
Like that is so I get chills thinking about it. Cause it's inclusive, right? It's, it's like fucking this is possible. And then there's an invitation there when, especially when someone does sort of like a solo show esque cause it's so audience in your face. But anyway, so I'm just picturing this, how old were you when you or something like that?

5 (35m 0s):
This would've been 16, 17. Aw.

2 (35m 3s):
It's like brilliant time to see it.

5 (35m 5s):
It's everything. And like I said, I'm sitting in the theater in a hoodie and baggy jeans in Tim's and he walks on stage in a hoodie and baggy jeans and Tim's. And it is just, you know, the, the, the experience, you can't, you know, you can't describe it and you can't re you can't make it happen again, but you chase it. So that's what I mean when I said I'm an addict. Like it's literally like I'm after this. I know it's possible.

1 (35m 34s):
Wait, you guys, I have to interrupt for a second. I just, you, you, you both just helped me unlock something. I always, I'm always thinking about what are all the qualities of, of theater that make it so exciting and one that I never considered until just now is that not only are you seeing them in real life, but you've, you have the idea anyway that they're also seeing you, which you can't have in a, you know, in film or television. So that's very powerful. But anyway, go ahead.

5 (36m 2s):
No, that's exactly, and then, you know, so when we did, you know, jumping way, way, way ahead later when we did my show The Redemptions of Chad Dini, which I saw Victor

2 (36m 10s):
Gardens, I saw,

5 (36m 11s):
Oh my god, so good. So amazing. So, but so we thank you, thank you. So, you know, that we were, so I, that show was built around that idea of back and forth with the audience and the audience being aware, there's a moment in the show if you've seen it, you know, where Desmond is sitting on the top turnbuckle and looking out at the audience and he says like, and guess what he says next? And then he goes, no, seriously, you have to guess. I can't, I can't go on with the show until you guess. And it was built, it was that direct kind of moment. And it was, the idea was yes, like a regular theater audience, but also there's gonna be somebody there that night who hadn't had an experience like that before.

5 (36m 52s):
And maybe it's gonna be a little Puerto Rican kid or a little brown kid of some sort or whoever. And they're gonna just be like, I gotta, I gotta get that, I gotta get that again.

2 (36m 59s):
Well, and what I also love about your, that show Chad Dedi and also other shows that I've seen that are similar is that there is this idea of changing what the idea of what it, what theater is. So like theater doesn't have to be this thing where we just sit there and watch like old white people do their thing and then the rest of us are bored and thinking about whatever sex or whatever it is we're thinking about. And we can say, wait a second, oh my God, we're here together. And that's theater too. So like, I just, I love that that show is so good. And I was, it's funny reading Chris' Jones like little quote about like, if it, if you don't become, if Christopher doesn't become like a huge star and like I was like, you can stomp on my head, which is hilarious to me, stomp on my head in my chest.

2 (37m 45s):
Not that I wish Ill jo to him, but he's also a problematic figure. But anyway, so, but it's true. It's like we, it's chain that play for me was like, oh shit, theater can be this too. It's wrestling, but it's not wrestling. It's, and so anyway, I just love that idea that it's not just, it's a beautiful play, but it's also ch for me changed what I believed theater could be. And I think for a lot of people, so anyway, I'll just say that

5 (38m 12s):
That's, that that's exciting to hear. And you know, it goes back to the, the, that thing of seeing so many shows and, and just going to show up to see something because I, you know, I would always, if I was choosing, I would wanna go see certain thi I would wanna go see what was on Broadway or would wanna see, you know, whatever it was. But because I was, I wasn't really choosing the shows that I was going to see, I was literally doing this thing. There was this, there used to to be this thing called audience extras in New York City that you could pay like a fee at the beginning of the year. And then you could call a number at like five o'clock and they would tell you, these shows are available to you for $3. And there would be, so it would be nice where I would just be like, oh, you know, they were papering the house basically, but they were papering, you know, for, for little stuff.

5 (38m 57s):
But I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't know anything about that. So, but go see a show. And then they'd be like, great, this show is on 27th Street on the ninth floor. You're gonna go past like the dentist office and then turn the corner into this like little studio. And I had no idea what it was. So it was, so my idea of what theater was changed a bunch. And then the other show that I got to see during that time was this show by the, the neo futurist, the New York neo futurists who were originally from Chicago, A show called Too Much Light Makes the Baby Go Blind. That I saw 14 times my freshman year of college. And it was a different show every night. It was literally a different show every night. So, so anyways, this just all these markers, but like you, you, you, when you're exposed to that much stuff that quickly, that's doing so many different things, your expectations of what you're gonna put on stage,

2 (39m 46s):
You know, change. And also you got a full theater education in, in addition to Gallatin or wherever or nyu, like that's a fucking education. Like that is like an apprenticeship in how to make art. And I'm like, and also you weren't lazy about it. Like I just look back and Gina and I talk about this on the show, like, I just didn't take advantage and look, I'm not gonna beat myself up. I've already done that and paid enough in therapy for that. But it's like, damn you, you and, and it shows. So like when you do that work of seeing all those res re that shows as research, it comes through in the work that then you create.

2 (40m 27s):
So it's not coming from this little tiny corner of the world. It's like, no dude, I'm informed by all this fucking theater because I put the time in to see it. So it's just, it's work. You did work. That was beautiful work. But anyway, I just like, man, I wish I had done that in Chicago. Cause I'm from Chicago and I just didn't do that as a teen or as a young, but whatever, I can do it now, why not?

5 (40m 48s):
Yeah, anyway, but you don't know that, you know, it's so hard. You don't know. And I didn't, it didn't feel like research, it didn't feel like work. It it, like I said, I was chasing something, you know? Yeah. I was chasing something. Made me feel whole.

1 (40m 60s):
Did your, you mentioned that your mom was a Broadway person. Was she a performer or she just loved theater?

5 (41m 6s):
No, no, no, no, no. She, she was just, she grew up in, in New York, in, you know, in the, the fifties and sixties and seventies and just loved seeing stuff and just had a real passion for it. So, you know, it was around in our house. I, I wasn't one of those families that like, you know, we had the Broadway, the original cast recording playing all the time. It wasn't like present that way. It wasn't omnipresent, but it was around. And you know, we watched, we watched a chorus. There was a, a production of Chorus Line that was on tv and so we watched that. I can't remember anything about it. I had a distant cousin who was in a production of Chorus Line. I don't think I actually saw it or saw her in it, but like, you know, so it was, it was just like around, and then the air, and the way that it sort of impacted me is that I, I was, I played baseball and basketball in high school and I'm very small and I'm very fragile and I was not very good.

5 (41m 60s):
And so I had a, a week off between seasons and I auditioned for a play. I went up to the school and they had auditions for a play. And I was like, oh, this is a thing that I have a connection with somewhere. So I auditioned for it because it was, it was around, it wasn't, you know, I didn't have a passion for it. It was around. And then I went and I auditioned and I got in and I didn't know that it was like, if you show up, you get in. Especially if I was, you know, I was a, I was a boy on the baseball team. They needed more boys. Like, you know, I, I had no idea. So I was like, oh, I have like a skill for this. I guess they need me. And then I, you know, I say it all the time. And then I got there and then it was, it was me and like four boys and 50 girls.

5 (42m 42s):
And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Like th maybe I should be here cuz I'm not, you know, I'm playing baseball, but I'm not getting girls for that cuz I'm the 12th man on the team. I can just be around. So it's like a, you know, it's, that's by the way,

1 (42m 57s):
Why is

5 (42m 57s):
That? And then I did

1 (42m 58s):
It's secret. Why, why, why do not, why do more straight boys not know this about theater? Like it is the place to go. You'll definitely be a God because there you'll only be one of four.

5 (43m 10s):
Yeah. And then we did, you know, years later we did like a musical review and I got to be in, I gotta do two songs from Greece. I got to sing summer nights and I got to sing Hand Jive and In Hand Jive. I literally was at the front of the stage with the guitar pretending to play the guitar and like playing with the audience and like, people were screaming and, you know, and I, I wasn't good, but I was the one that they had to look at, you know? So it wasn't, and let's be clear, like I did not like get girls out of this. But I was around, you know, I, I, I got the things that I, you know, that I, I got attention and I got, you know, recognition and I made stuff that I liked.

2 (43m 49s):
That's

1 (43m 50s):
Okay. So, and was it fun? Were you having fun? Yeah,

5 (43m 53s):
It was so much fun. It was so hard and, you know, but it was, it was a great time. So

2 (43m 58s):
When it was time to, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.

5 (44m 1s):
No, and the best thing, the most important thing is that I got to be around a bunch of people that I, that I liked and it, it created a community and that became like, well that's what I was gonna ask,

2 (44m 10s):
Right? Cause you make theater. That is, for me anyway, that is inclusive. And I've worked on shows that I would call are like, I think even though your episode didn't air like low is like super for me on the outside watching like an ensemble show and like, so community is clearly important to you. When it came time to go to college, were you like, I'm gonna make art. How did your college picking, going experience as a teenager happen for you?

5 (44m 39s):
Yeah, so I thought I was going to do business because I wanted to make money and I wanted to wear suits. Honestly, that was a big thing. And I had a conversation with my dad who was a, my dad worked for the phone company in New York City for 20 something years, and he was a union leader, walked picket lines with him. And, you know, he's, he's, he's a, a working class guy. He went to college, he had a poly poly side degree, but, but he was a working class guy and I was like, oh, you know, I was thinking in immigration waves kind of ideas and you know, you have the, my grandfather was the, is not exactly an immigrant because he came from Puerto Rico.

5 (45m 22s):
It's complicated. My grandfather came to New York and work, he still works. He's almost 96 years old right now. He still, you know, works. My father worked in sort of like a working class job. He, he was the guy who climbed the telephone wires and literally, you know, patched the wires together. And so my thought was like, well my job then is to go to school and make money and help take care of my parents and prepare for like the next generations of our, you know, my, I, there was a very clear path from my grandfather to my father to me and my mother worked, my mother, you know, is an amazing part of all of this, but I'm oversimplifying Then I had a conversation with my dad and he was like, well why do you wanna go to business school?

5 (46m 8s):
And I said, you know, I wanna make money. And he was like, what? He's like, there's other ways to make money. He's like, do you care about this? So my dad talked me outta business school and into a theater thing because I was super into it. And like I had found myself, you know, in that way. So I knew I wanted to do that. And my mom obviously, like I'm down in telling that part of the story. Downplayed my mom. My mom walked me through the entire process, including, I went to a few different schools and she took me to nyu. We went down and I missed the tour that I was supposed to do of the campus and we just walked around West Village for two hours and we got back in the car to drive up to Yonkers. And I was like, we're finished.

5 (46m 48s):
You loved it. He said, we're done.

2 (46m 49s):
Can I take you back to what your dad said? Why do you think he said that? Why did he do that?

5 (46m 55s):
Cause he's awesome. He's super cool. Both my parents were super cool. I don't know. Yeah, they did a lot of stuff for me. They don't quite understand, but I think they saw that I had a, I think they saw, I had a passion for it and I think, I don't know if this is true, but I think that they, they kind of knew that I was, I don't know if driven is exactly the right word, not driven in everything, but when I got into something that I really liked, they sort of like dug my teeth into it. And so I think they knew that it wasn't gonna be a case of like, you're gonna go to college and study theater and then just fuck around and waste our time.

5 (47m 37s):
You know, it was like, if you're gonna go do this, like you're actually gonna go commit to this and go hard at it. So

2 (47m 42s):
What it sounds like is they trusted you to follow through on your, it's just, I'm just, so it's interesting to me. Yeah. And although we talk about like immigration from PR is a different thing and like my mom was an immigrant from Columbia and her take was go to business school and make a lot of money. Yeah. So it goes different way. I mean everyone's story is different, but it's just, it's, it's just so fascinating to me and lovely that he was able to, for whatever reason, see something in you and say, wait, maybe you should, like, he was curious. Yeah, he allowed you to be curious,

1 (48m 18s):
But Boz your mom only got to, to, she got to at the end of her life to go and pursue your dreams and, and do what you wanna do. And I always feel like when maybe sometimes when parents get to that, it's because they have experience of having done the thing that they were supposed to do or the thing that's gonna make money and found it ultimately unfulfilling. Right. Your dad went to school for Sai and then he sounds like he did not work in politics. So, you know, I don't know if that was his passion or his dream and maybe he wanted you to be able to realize yours.

5 (48m 47s):
Yeah, I think, I think you maybe you maybe really run on man, you guys really are like, like therapists. No, I think that's right on. I think that both my parents, you know, both my parents are very, very smart people. They're very loving. They create community, you know, you know, to begin with, to sort of, sort of fundamentally. So I think, you know, there's, there's certainly an element where they, I don't know if, I don't know if they, this is, this is eye-opening and they're gonna listen to this and we'll have some, some interesting conversations. But like, I don't, I don't know like how much of it, I don't, I don't get the sense that a lot of it was like a regret, but I do it, it maybe there's like a sense of a natural, like their sense of the natural progression was not that sense, was not mine.

5 (49m 34s):
Where mine was like, oh, they were gonna put me in a position to sort of like, make money and then let my kids do whatever they wanna do. They were sort of like, no, you're good. Like you, you have this opportunity to go do this thing. Go like, jump the step and go pursue the thing. And you know what? Knock on wood, what luckily has worked out is that I've been able to sort of marry the steps where like I've gotten to pursue the thing that I wanted to do and my kids are in good shape. Yeah. You know, so ideal we left out in that situation. The other thing, you know, that I'll just throw, and the therapy side of this is that when I was four years old, I was in a car accident and I broke my hip and, and I wasn't with my parents during the, that that thing.

5 (50m 19s):
So there's always been our sense of like a very tight knit trio, a similar kind of thing jumping ahead that I see with my wife and my kids over the last, you know, two years of pandemic stuff, right? Where we've been like together joined at the hip for the last three years. And so there is something about like the closeness of that

2 (50m 43s):
Because words are so fascinating to me. Like close at the hip, you busted your hip. I mean, it, it, it's a whole thing. And so yeah, there's a bond. Are you the only child?

5 (50m 56s):
I'm the only child, yeah. I've come from a big extended family, so I have like 13 cousins and cousins are basically, you know, brothers and sisters in that regard. But yeah, but I'm, I was the only one, it was the three of us. We were the first generation to move out of the Bronx. We moved to, to Yonkers. We were 15 minutes away from my family, but it was a different, the three of us were playing a different game. And so I do think that there was a real, I think a lot of that is, is is tied to this opportunity.

1 (51m 28s):
I wanna push back a little bit on this I thing that you said that you're not ambitious or you're like, you're not that driven, which doesn't make any sense given what your, you know, career record is. I, I'm curious if your b being modest or, or do you really, I mean, sometimes the most successful people have this way of thinking. Like, I don't know, it just all kind of happened to me. But that is never how it happens.

5 (51m 54s):
No,

2 (51m 55s):
The other thing is like, ambition is like a dirty word. And the dirty word in, in in is ambition. And I actually think that there's ways of being ambitious that are so fucking dope that I love an ambitious person. It's just it for what cost. So yeah. You got, you, your parents saw that you were ambitious, right? Like you

5 (52m 15s):
Yeah, no, and my goals, you know, I'm, I'm ambitious, like my goal, you know, my goal in starting the theater thing where I'm gonna be on Broadway, I'm gonna win Tony, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this stuff and I'm, I'm gonna accomplish these things. I'm gonna have a television show at some point. I'm gonna, you know, like, so, so that stuff is, is ambitious also. You guys tricked me. I, I thought this was gonna be about theater school and this is all like, like the recesses of my, you know, my heart and my mind. You know, when I was, when I was younger in grade school, I was in advanced classes or whatever, but I, I, I was in therapy for a while in like fourth, fifth grade because I was in this place of like driving myself hard and I was that kind of kid, you know, partially the, the only child, whatever, of like, I gotta get these grades.

5 (53m 11s):
My parents weren't the ones pushing me. And you know, they had expectations, but it wasn't like, you know, you get A's, or you're, you know, or, or you're, you're an embarrassment. But I was pushing myself that hard. And so at some point in fourth, maybe even earlier, second, third, fourth grade, there was a conscious move on my part to be like, you don't have to be here all the time. You can't see what I'm doing. But like, you don't have to be here all the time, like way, way forward. You can be back on your back foot a little bit.

2 (53m 39s):
Well, who told you that? Who did the therapist help you see that?

5 (53m 43s):
No, it was me and it was a friend who, I had a friend that I grew up with who was also a really smart kid, but who was kind of like you. He's like, why do you care if you get a's all the time, you get C's and it's fine. Which to me is actually not the same. And if my kids were listening to this, like, don't, I don't agree with that, but like it was, he was a little bit too foot off the gas. But there was definitely, and at that point I was doing sport, I was into sports and I was so, I was like, you gotta have to make time and space for all the other things. I have to make time and space to have friends. I have to make time and space to like find these other things. And so I was able to sort of put my foot off the gas a little bit and I kinda, I kind of wish I had a little more of that sometimes, but I'm as like functional human being stuff.

5 (54m 29s):
I think like that ability to just be like, it's okay, I can back up. I can slow down.

2 (54m 32s):
He, he was like, your, like your dude from the Big Lebowski, like the dude from the big Lebo. He's like, whoa man. Like, and sometimes the dude gets himself into trouble because of that or whatever, but the point is you learned at a young age to not be like at 110% all the time. And it probably Yeah, helped you in so many ways to like back off a little bit and not hold so tightly to the whole thing of life, right. In a game of life. I mean, this doesn't mean you're not ambitious for sure. It just means you didn't wanna like, you know, drive yourself to death at age eight or whatever it is.

5 (55m 9s):
Yeah, yeah. And it means that you don't, when it comes time to pick, you know, a college program, you don't have to say, I'm gonna be a lawyer, which was probably also on the, you know, radar at some point because I wanna make, you know, I need to come out into a job that's gonna make me $200,000 a year or whatever it is. Like I can stop, I can slow down, I can explore the kind of the, you know, explore the space. Like I could figure out what it is I wanna do. It's a trade off. It's all a trade off. I probably wish I had like 10% more of the foot on the gas, but, but whatever, like, you can't predict.

1 (55m 42s):
So I might, you might have said this and I missed it, but if you knew you wanted to have a career in theater, why did you go to Gallatin instead of going to

5 (55m 51s):
To, because I figured at Gallatin, cuz I don't, I, I don't think I would've gotten into Tish. You know, I had done four, like, like I said, like, you know, musical i'd, I'd done some other stuff, but in retrospect, I don't think I would've gotten in. And I think I had a sense of that. So I went to Gallatin with the idea that you can do, I could, I could maybe end around the trying to get into Tish. And I thought even at the beginning, while I would take some acting classes, I would take some psychology classes, maybe the two things would help. And then I got there and I saw that like the students, my friends who were trying to be actors were 110%, you know, they, they were, they were dedicated in this.

5 (56m 39s):
And it was not just the classes, although they were in studio, you know, nine to five and then their regular classes, which I was like not doing that. But they were also, they were doing the head shots and they were in the gym at seven o'clock before they went into to this other thing. And they, you know, and I was, I didn't have that passion for it. I also didn't really understand what acting was at that point, you know, it was years and years later that I sort of understood like what you're actually trying to do, you know, similarly, like, I like actually when we were working on Chad Dei in Chicago and I stayed at Desmond's apartment one night and I saw his, I don't think it was a script, I don't think it was a page of the dei script, I think it was a page for like in audition.

5 (57m 24s):
And he, the notes that he takes on it, they're like, it's like psychopath notes in the best possible. You know, it's like the level of detail and the system that he has created for himself of like, you know, that I think actors do. Those

2 (57m 36s):
Are pros, right? Like those are fucking, like I'd always talk about being on set with Jimmy Simpson and when I was an actor and watching him and being like, oh fuck, I had no idea what acting was until I watched this dude I on, oh my God. And I, I told him, I'm like, you're blowing my mind. So it's, it that's like a fucking, yeah. So you were there and you were like, oh, that's not my level of commitment. Yeah,

5 (58m 0s):
I, I I didn't care about it that much. I care about theater. I, you know, I liked, I, you know, so I started, I was doing all the other stuff and seeing, seeing things, and like I said, I, I was just like, let's figure out, I don't think I'm gonna be an actor. I took an acting class and it was fine, but I was like, this, this, this ain and I, I messed around and did a bunch of stuff and then I, I stumbled. Gallatin had these things and still does called Arts workshops. Back then they were three credit courses when everything else was a four credit course. So every semester I would take two arts workshops and three regular classes. It's, this is esoteric nonsense, it doesn't matter. But I got to really double up on those courses because they were, it was, it was a, a, a lower credit load.

5 (58m 49s):
So I would take a couple classes and then I think I sort of had a sense that writing would be something I was interested in, but I didn't know. And then maybe in my sophomore year, must have been my sophomore year, I took the first writing class with a professor name of Anora Champaign, who's still teaching, she's downtown New York solo performance person, which lined up with like my Johnny Legs and, and, and you know, other folks that I was sort of interested in. And she was, you know, what, what we might call more of the like, like kindergarten teacher style where she was super positive and warm, embrace kind of teaching. And then I took the second part of it called Writing workshop two or playwriting two with a guy named Steve Smith who wore a leather jacket.

5 (59m 35s):
He was also a downtown New York theater guy. And he was the one who told me, like, I wrote something in his class and he was, one told me, he is like, this is not good. He's like, your characters are all saying exactly what they're thinking. You could do better than this. And I was like, let me tell you something. I'm from Yonkers, New York, my family's all from the Bronx. I will kick your ass. Are you talk, you know, like I got into a fight with him. Like, you know, I, I didn't say I was gonna get that. We got into a big argument in class cuz I was like, I know what you want me to do, but I don't wanna do that. Don't tell me what I'm supposed to do. And I went home and I stood over it and I said, I can do what this guy wants me to do. I'm gonna write a thing tonight that is all subtext and there's all what he's asking me to write.

5 (1h 0m 18s):
And then I'll be finished with it and I'll go back to writing what I wanna write. And then like happens in these things, you go home and you sit down and you write and you're like, oh my God, there's a reason that this guy's a professional playwright who's teaching me because he knows what he's talking about and this is way better and this is actually theater. And now I kind of know what I wanna do. When

2 (1h 0m 35s):
You were going to school, oh, go ahead. Go ahead Gina. Oh well I, it's just a lag in my internet. I was just gonna say like, so you know, what's different about Gino, about him than us and a lot of people is that you didn't have, you didn't, your driving force wasn't thinking whether you said it or not, that you wanted to be famous or maybe it was, but like what I, okay. Cause that's the difference. Like, we all went to theater school thinking whether we admitted that shit or not, I'm gonna be famous. Like, I think that's the fucking problem. It didn't work. And then we were like, well it's rigged, fuck off. And then we had to find our way. But like you, you didn't, it doesn't, like fame was a driving force in, in your college

5 (1h 1m 16s):
Career. I was hungry. I had to eat, I was an addict, you know, I was gobbled. I had to gobble it up and I had to figure out a way that I got to be a part of it. And, and that again, like that thing, I mean, not to be like arrogant about it, but like, the thing that was sort of underneath all of that was like, yeah, you're going, you're gonna be fine. Like, like you're gonna make stuff. It's gonna, people are gonna find it cuz it's gonna be good if you keep, if you keep going. You know, years later, I, I was on a panel with Lemon Anderson who's a poet and a performer. He was part of the group universes and he was part of the deaf poetry, deaf poetry jam folks on, on Broadway, also Puerto Rican.

5 (1h 1m 60s):
And, you know, I said to him, and folks are there, I was like, yeah, I saw when I was young, I saw Lemon on Broadway. And I was like, oh, I, I'm going do a lemon dip. Like, like he's Puerto Rican. I'm Puerto Rican, he's, you know, a hip hop dude, I'm a hip hop dude. Like, there's no, I, I don't know, like it's just gonna happen. You know, I, years later you find out like, it doesn't work that way. But like, I wasn't concerned about that kind of stuff, you know, I was concerned about the making the thing

1 (1h 2m 32s):
Or it works that way, but it's circuitous in ways that you, you know, really didn't imagine when you were talking about the, the piece that you wrote that your professor said wasn't good, and then you said you knew what he wanted, but you didn't wanna do that. Is that true? You, you thought to write whatever it was you were writing in a kind of nuanced way, but you wanted it to be very presentational? Explain more about that.

5 (1h 2m 53s):
No, no, I was just wrong. I was just wrong. I just, I just, you know, but I was it that like, I know what he wanted thing is that arrogance of being 19 years old, which is, is a good arrogance. I think. Like, it's like you want, you know, I teach 19 year olds now and I want them to be strident about the things they feel passionate about, even if they're wrong, maybe especially if they're wrong. Yeah. And it's not that like, oh, I necessarily want to prove to them that they're wrong. Like, like we all are wrong. The first play that I wrote, the first full length play that I wrote is called Welcome to Arroyos, is a hip hop theater piece. It has two sets of omniscient narrators telling the story and driving things in sort of slightly different directions.

5 (1h 3m 35s):
That is, that's wrong. Like, that's a bad, like by the numbers, it's a bad way to tell the thing, to have two different people who sort of can control what's happening and are telling you different stories. Like it's, it's wrong. But I'm so glad that I had that and I wouldn't give that up under any sort of circumstance. So like, I think when you're young, you have to have, like, that's the thing that you have as, as young as a heads when you're, when you're as a young writer, as a young performer is like your headstrong about stuff that you don't know, you know, better than. So I'm glad that I had that, but I, I also am glad that in this particular case, for whatever reason, I fell into the thing that he wanted me to fall into and that he lifted me, you know, and then he supported and then I brought it back in.

5 (1h 4m 24s):
He was like, what do you think? And I was like, yeah. He's like, is it better? I'm like, I think it's, I think this is better. And he was like, I agree. And then that was it. And we were done and we sort of moved on. So,

2 (1h 4m 33s):
Right. That's a teacher, that's a good teacher. Like that's, that's a teacher. Fucking a that's, and also you said something really important, which I find a lot of theater conservatories. I teach, I taught at DePaul and then I quit. But I, at the theater school, because I was like, oh wait a second, wait a second. What you're doing is actually asking these students not to be strident, not to be. You are suppressing that, that fucking crazy ass drive that is, that'll be the thing that makes them not kill themselves. It, that doesn't work. So like, I love the fact that it's like, right, it's a way of getting the, and this is why teaching is so freaking hard, duh.

2 (1h 5m 14s):
But like, it's like getting the students to see that thing that you saw in your bedroom wherever you were and be like, oh shit, he's right. But, but you have to try it just like parenting, just like anything, they have to try it their own way first because that instinct to save themselves any way they know how, even if it's wrong, is actually gonna keep them alive later. So it's like, but I find a lot of conservatories are like, smash smash, these are entitled asshole kids. And look, sometimes they're, but a lot of times they're just trying to figure shit out, right? It's like they're trying to figure it out. So I'm just so grateful that you had that guy. Like, I'm not saying he's a hero, but what I'm saying is he was a teacher and that's what you needed.

5 (1h 5m 53s):
Absolutely. And you know, from a, from a, from a writing perspective, it's not just that that stuff's gonna keep you alive, it's that that's what's gonna actually make you write something. Like, that's like, you have to have a new thing. Like we can teach you to write a play that looks like whatever. I can teach you to write a play where people come and sit down on a couch and talk to each other and drink wine and you know, like, it, it looks like a play and I can teach you three act structure. I can teach you three act structure in 10 minutes. I don't need, you know, you don't need all of that stuff. And some of you will take that and get jobs potentially based on your understanding the basics. But like the people who are gonna have careers and who are gonna get the opportunity to sell the television show, who are gonna get the opportunity to bring a show to Broadway are people like Michael Jackson, you know, like Michael R. Jackson, who like, I wanna make this story, I wanna tell this story and I need to use what I learned in all these programs.

5 (1h 6m 49s):
I need to learn whatever, but I'm not gonna do the thing that you already. Right. If I could, yeah, it's already done.

2 (1h 6m 54s):
Well, and also I think that's what you're talking about and what I hear a lot in general is where people will ask me like, what's your voice? And I'm like, what the fuck? And now I know what that means. It means that thing that you're talking about is your thing that makes you wanna write in the first place.

1 (1h 7m 10s):
Yeah, I was gonna actually ask, because I only started writing in intentionally, like not journals and poetry and all that kinda stuff seven years ago. The thing that writing has done for me is it's int informed me about who I am. Things that I didn't know that I thought or felt or connections. I didn't know I that were connected. What has writing, how has writing changed you or what has it brought out for you as a person?

5 (1h 7m 39s):
Yeah, that's exactly what writing is, right? So write, I talk, I tell my students that they have to find the churn. And the churn is just a thing that I, I say it's the thing that you are thinking about right now, just before I even explain to you what it is. Like, you know, and especially if you're 19 years old and you're trying to be an artist, and I start talking about I'm, you know, I'm, I'm circling my finger around my heart and I say, we need to find the thing that you need to write. I don't even have to finish the sentence there before kids on some level know, like, I gotta figure out who I am. I have to figure out my identity. I have to, to figure out my sexuality. I have to figure out, you know, how do I fit in a world where, you know, climate change means that I might not make it to 75 years old, whatever.

5 (1h 8m 24s):
It's like, what are those things? And for me it was, you know, luckily I found, you know, I I, I had Johnny Legs when I was 17 years old and I was saying like, oh, there's something about my specific Puerto Rican new yorican identity that doesn't feel Puerto Rican enough, but it doesn't feel not Puerto Rican, you know, definitely, you know, whatever it is, I have to figure out what that is. I have to figure out my relationship to like hiphop music that, because hiphop music and culture like sort of created who I was, but I never felt completely a part of that. Like, you have to figure out like what it is that you need to figure out. And you have to understand that it's never, the, the end result of making the art is not like, I got it.

5 (1h 9m 4s):
Like I'm this person. You know, it's always gonna shift and evolve and, and move and you just know that it's a hunt. So like, so that's, that's sort of what the writing process figured out. The, the gift of going to Gallatin was that in Gallatin, yes, you can study all these different things, but then at the end you have to explain how they all tie together and explain. Not ev you don't have to count for every single class, but like, I took these writing classes, I took these classes on culture, I took these classes on race and gender, whatever I took them on. And now I have to sort of explain what that is all about. Why do I need these things? So it is always, and I, I tell my students on the first day of class, we always sit in circles.

5 (1h 9m 46s):
We don't sit at, you know, tables. We, I put them, you know, we sit in circle and we go around the room and I tell them there's gonna be parts when we're sitting around the room where I'm not looking at any of you, I'm looking at the floor between us. And the reason I'm looking at the floor between us is that my tr my training from this particular school, from the Gallatin school is to find unexpected connections between things. So I'm looking at the floor because I almost literally see like lines light up because you said, I grew up in Iowa and I saw this show when I was six, you know, six years old, and somebody else says, I make pottery over there. And I'm like, oh, there's a connection between these shows because pottery is this and this show, you know, is that, and like you two should know each other.

5 (1h 10m 33s):
You two should understand, you know, there's something else going on there. So that thing of like, how do you grab pieces? And part of, I'll go over the, you're speaking my language. Part of the thing that I uncovered about that too is that being Puerto Rican, being New Year Rican is so much about the intersections. Like we, you know, being a New Yorker who grew up, you know, Puerto Rican of New York descent, a Puerto Rican, New York descent, a New York, or a Puerto Rican descent, or a Puerto Rican, New York descent, either one, they both work. It's so much about, like, I grew up, my three best friends growing up were named, their last names were Budman, Weisman and Weisberg. Like, I grew up with these Jewish kids.

5 (1h 11m 14s):
We listen to hip hop, we watched wrestling, we played baseball, and then I had my Puerto Rican cousins in the Bronx and I had like all this like, so you're just like grabbing it shit. And like there's no, my, my identity could never be defined as like, I do this one thing. It's like I have to find and pull and whatever. And so my Gallatin training prepared me for that. And then as a writer, it was able to, I was able to say like, oh, that's what I do. I take professional wrestling and politics and the fact that I can't get a play produced and I put them together and I make a new thing out of it.

1 (1h 11m 47s):
Dude, I just realized that. Yeah. Ooh, there you go. Yeah, that's, that's, that's no small thing. I just realized that everybody, I I put it together that everybody I know who went to Gallatin, really what it should be called is a school for critical thinking because it, that's the one thing that a lot of conservatories really don't get to teach because the, so it's so focused on like craft and, and sort of like, you know, on the, on the ground skills. But a lot of people don't necessarily get critical thinking from that. And I think that's maybe what Gallatin does, does best. Okay. But so when you graduated from that school, what was your, yeah, what was your thinking there and that, how did that inform what you chose to do next?

5 (1h 12m 34s):
So that just reminded me of another part from the dad stuff that's gonna connect to this. So one of the things that my father said is he said, you, he, he said to me that my generation doesn't, like his generation would get a job and stay in a job for a long time. He said, your generation is gonna get a job and then stay in it for a little bit and move to something else and move to something else. So he said, you don't have to go to college to learn the thing that you're gonna do forever. He said, learn to college to get smart, basically. He's like, learn how to think. So that's the creative thinking, you know, the critical thinking part of it. So luckily I got to do that first. Like, so my Gallatin thing was, yes, it was a lot of specific stuff, but it was also like, how is your brain gonna process things? How are you gonna look at the word? How are, how are you gonna understand things?

5 (1h 13m 15s):
I don't think that either of my parents knew that that's what I was getting into, but that's what I was getting into. So it was like a critical thinking part first. Then I, while I was at Gallatin, lots more to this stuff, but I, I had a professor named Michael Denwoody, who is an amazing professor. He is retiring this year and he's a colleague now. He had gone to Gallatin undergrad and he had gone to Tish grad school and then gone on to work in playwriting and in television and a bunch of stuff. So he was my professor and there's a much more to that story. But long story short, I took a screenwriting class with him where I wrote a screenplay and wasn't a very good screenplay.

5 (1h 13m 60s):
It's, we lost to the, to to the ether now, but, but it was good enough that I used it to apply to the dramatic writing department and got waitlisted. So I didn't get in and I got waitlisted and I was like, oh, well I'll go out and do a bunch of stuff out in the world. And then three weeks before the semester started, they called me, I was a camp counselor, I was on a beach in like Rehoboth Delaware or something with my kids, my students. And they called me and were like, do you want to come to graduate school still? And, and I was like, yeah, okay. So I got in at the very last minute and it was because writing had sort of become clearly the thing that I was, you know, most interested in.

5 (1h 14m 47s):
And I think I just didn't know what I was going to do next. So applying to graduate school was a great thing. Like I don't know that I would necessarily always recommend going right to graduate school, but I think it just became an extension because I didn't start out writing, but I moved into writing and I had done like two years of writing at that point and I didn't feel like I really had it under my feet, but I knew I was caring about it. Wow. So I think that's why it sort of made sense to

2 (1h 15m 16s):
End up. And also it sounds like the teacher was a bit of a mentor and that was sort of the path that he had gone to as well of going through as well. So when you have a mirror of someone who, anyway for me that I respect and they did a thing, you're like, oh, that's a thing that I might wanna do because it's possible and they're cool and they help me and I like them and they're talented. So I guess, and we'll have you on if you're available for a part two, because this is like, you could have your own podcast with us called.

5 (1h 15m 44s):
Yeah, we just got

2 (1h 15m 45s):
Started. Yeah, that's, yeah. But I, I, in the interest of time I wanna ask cause it's something that's been on my mind since you've been talking, is, do you have hope for the American theater?

5 (1h 15m 58s):
No

2 (1h 15m 58s):
Biggie. No biggie. But like I just am asking theater folks this question right now because there's so much shit. Like i e Victory Gardens where your play was like that fucking thing influence. Like, do you have hope for the Amer? And I'm specifically talking American theater cause I don't know shit about any other theater

5 (1h 16m 18s):
Really. Wow. Yeah, theater's good. There's a lot of really, really, really good theater. You know, like across the board, like the next Broadway season is shocking. The stuff that keeps getting announced and this Broadway season is really shocking. The last few shocking in a just way of like, there's really exciting things at all different levels of, you know, things that are happening. I don't mean levels, but like it's different styles. I mean like just this season alone, the shows that closed early, like it's ridiculous. Like K-pop saw K-pop the last week that it was open, it was one of the best nights of theater that I've ever had in my life. Similarly with Ain't No Mo like, it's like these shows are just, they're incredibly good and you know, are they gonna, they should have run both of those shows should be on Broadway for a, a very long time.

5 (1h 17m 10s):
And it's sad that they're not gonna be, but the, the artists who made them will be back and the shows are, are, are phenomenal. Those shows will live on. And then Broadway is just like a teeny, teeny, teeny teeny pi teeny tiny part of the whole, the amount of artists who I know who are out there making amazing work is staggering. You know, the, the, the thing I think that's behind the question that you're asking is like the business of the American theater, that's a separate conversation because the third time that I went to graduate, the, the third time I went to theater school was for performing arts management. And so I, I spent a lot of time looking at and thinking about the way theaters run and be completely honest, theaters are run poorly just as businesses.

5 (1h 17m 53s):
And I think some of that is because they're not-for-profit. You know, they're not-for-profit model for some implies that it doesn't have to be tightly run like a business. And then some places it is tightly run like a business and it doesn't leave room for the art. So I think it's kind of, you know, that part of it is kind of messy. But I do think that like, I think it's cyclical. I think folks will rebuild things. I think the young up and coming, you know, folks, theater artists are making really amazing stuff, making really amazing structures. I'm hoping that young theater artists are, somebody is gonna realize, like you don't just have to be a theater company.

5 (1h 18m 33s):
Like you can be a theater company who also makes digital stuff. You can make stuff online, you can, you can go straight to making film, you can go straight to making cutting albums. You can utilize, you know, the TikTok stuff and you know, whatever. Like there's, there's, there's so many other avenues and there's just too much good brain power in what we do to think that the theater's ever gonna really be in, in danger, you know? Yeah, I agree. The business models don't make sense.

1 (1h 19m 3s):
No, they absolutely don't. And that, that's the bottom, the center can't hold with the whole Broadway thing. Like it's all gonna have to change. However, I will say, even though eight no o did close prematurely and now a strange loop didn't close prematurely, I don't think. But fantastic slave play was fantastic. I saw the death of the Salesman with all black cast. Those choices that are being made speak volumes about what's gonna happen next. Even if right now every great show that is under attended has to have a GoFundMe that Lena away, you know, buys out a whole house every night. That's not a sustainable thing to have. Celebrities have to buy out a whole theater for every night.

1 (1h 19m 44s):
But it, but it, I think it's doing the thing that it, I'm thinking it was meant to do, which is bring a whole new crowd of people to the theater. People who have always felt excluded from the theater because their faces were never represented. And that will, that's like a train that'll just go Yes. On its own. And,

2 (1h 20m 1s):
And you two are so funny because you're on the East coast and I said American theater and you both went to Broadway. That's where your minds That's what I, and I'm thinking like storefront theaters in Chicago Jackalope and like, and you guys are hilarious. I was like, oh, they keep talking about, and I'm like, oh, the East Coast. Yes. Like, yes, the American theater. I think Broadway's gotta change big time. But like yeah, I I it's just so interesting that America, it just, it's very indicative that America itself is so like separate and sort of compartmentalized right now in theater in other ways. And then, but I do think what, and I just thought that was hilarious. I was like, why they talking about, I'm like, cause it's, it's the center of theater in some ways, right?

2 (1h 20m 43s):
Yeah.

5 (1h 20m 44s):
But I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a board member, council member of the Dramatist Guild. I'm a Tony person and so I see, all I see is theater stuff. All I see is Broadway stuff. The thing that I would say, you know, to young folks who are listening and hopefully that's, you know, maybe that'll be some of my students. Woo. But is that the, that storefront model, the young person model is super important. And I tell a lot of my students who are in New York, I'm like, if you know, new York's really hard to be, there's a lot of great, it's hard to start out in, there's a lot of great value here. But Chicago's amazing. Minneapolis is amazing, Austin is amazing. The Bay is also super expensive, but is great.

5 (1h 21m 24s):
You know, go to Boston, go work with company one in Boston, go work with mixed blood in Minneapolis, go work anywhere in Chicago. Like those opportunities are there and there's the opportunities to get your reps in and to make really amazing work. It's not just like, oh, I'm gonna like do stuff here and then it's gonna get me to bro. It might, but like you get to do really, you know, really wonderful work. And I don't, I simultaneously don't worry about that because I think there's always gonna be 20 year olds who like, like each other and fall in love with each other and fall in love with making work and you know, and wanna sleep with each other. And they find out the way to sleep with each other is to be where they all are and like, they make stuff together.

5 (1h 22m 8s):
So I think that stuff is always gonna be there. I do hope that the, the push now isn't just like, oh we can all get famous fast and get famous early. Like I still look for those folks who are gonna be able to like, let's, how do we just, how do we stay hungry and learn that like the nitty gritty stuff and then have confidence that it's gonna be okay down the road. Yeah. Cause that's where the

2 (1h 22m 30s):
Funnel, I think that's such a beautiful note to end on. It's like you, you said that early on that like underneath the foundation of your work seemed to be I'm gonna do the good work, the work I wanna do and learn and grow and trust that that will be the thing that leads to things but not do it for that. Like you're saying. And I think that's the more I'm around at 47, the more I'm like, oh shit, the thing I thought that was the thing that's gonna work is not that It's doing the fucking work and collaborating with other folks. That's the thing that is gonna lead to, to somewhere. Even if that's somewhere's, just feeling at peace and not wanting to murder myself or my husband.

2 (1h 23m 10s):
Do you know what I mean? Like that's, anyway. Amen.

1 (1h 23m 14s):
Yay. Well this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time Christopher. And we really mean that you should come pleasure a part too, cuz there's so much more to talk

5 (1h 23m 24s):
About. I have something really, really, really exciting coming up at the end of the year. Say it and I will, I can't, it's like, it's not announced yet, but it's really exciting and I'm super proud of it. And so once it's announced, yes, we'll come back and

1 (1h 23m 52s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I Survive. Theater School is an Undeniable Inc. Production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Paci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.