Mind over Matter: How Shifting Our Thoughts Shifted Our Organizational Health

Show Notes

In this episode, we talk with Anjee Helstrup-Alvarez, Executive Director and Letecia Rodriguez, Director of Operations at MACLA/Movimiento de Arte y Cultura Latino Americana in San Jose California. MACLA is a member of the Alpha Cohort of LANE, the first group of organizations to engage in the 4 years process.  Anjee and Letecia share how their understanding of organizational health was curtailed by racialized conditions and how moving towards a people-centered infrastructure is giving them new vitality.  Enjoy.

What is TACtile?

TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.

Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture. This is the podcast of Leveraging a Network for Equity--LANE, a program of the National Performance Network. LANE supports arts organizations of color and rural organizations with time and resources needed to grow their infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and moves the field towards justice. I'm your host, Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE.

Music Introduction: (sung) Keep on a walking. Keep on a talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't gonna let no jailhouse turn me around.

SC: Welcome, everyone. We're really excited about this episode of TACtile. We have an opportunity to talk with one of LANE's founding organizations, one of our Alpha Cohort members, MACLA. And I'm going to let MACLA, Angie and Letitia, tell you what MACLA stands for, cause I don't want to be the one who tries all of that, and someone's like, Hey, Sage. But MACLA has been a part of the National Performance Network for quite a while now and has really been instrumental in holding down the work of NPN Partners in California and for Latino organizations across the country and art and cultural organizations. So, I am really excited to be here with Anjee Helstrup-Alvarez, the executive director of MACLA, Letitia Rodriguez, director of operations, who have, I think you two probably made every single LANE gathering throughout the four years. (2:00) They were stalwarts in the process, and I'm really excited for other folks to hear about the journey that I got to take with you all hand in hand, and how the things that we talk about with LANE have shifted, manifested, or even concretized the things you believed and your values for your organization. So I'm going to--. That's by my way of introduction. And I'm going to ask Anjee and Letitia, if you'll tell us a little bit about MACLA, and a little about yourself.

Anjee Helstrup-Alvarez: So, my name is Anjee Helstrup-Alvarez, and thank you, Sage. It's such an honor and a pleasure to spend time with you and Letitia talking today about MACLA and our journey with LANE. So, MACLA is an acronym for our full name in Spanish, which is Movimiento de Arte y Cultura Latino Americana. Roughly translates to movement of Latin American art and culture. So, we are a community based arts organization located in downtown San Jose. We were founded in the late 1980s on the wave of multiculturalism and the culture wars in the United States. And very community-based, very sweat equity, grassroots, and have transformed these last thirty years and really thinking through, you know, MACLA, first as an organization, was not a place. We were an advocacy organization, and our three co-founders, Eva Terrazas, Maribel Alvarez, and Rick Sajor are true visionaries in our community and really created this organization with so much love and care, and I recently came across some of the original papers they had, and there was this diagram of two overlapping circles with art and community. And really saying, we have kept to that focus of creating a space for Chicanx and Latinx artists to present their work, and for our broader community to come and engage and be part of uplifting our artist voices and being a place to come and learn and connect with one another and hold space. So, Letitia, I'll pass it to you.

Letitia Rodriguez: Alright, alright. Well thank you. And again, LANE, Sage, thank you for inviting us here. Being part of LANE has just been an incredible experience. It's been--. Talk about a growth mindset, you know, that's, that's definitely been where, where I've been from there. I am--. I've lived here in California for almost 30 years now. (4:55) I am originally from Houston, Texas, and had the opportunity to live in different parts of the country. When we moved here to San Jose, I looked at the landscape of what was going on, and I came to volunteer at MACLA. I was excited, I liked what they were doing, but then I thought, Well okay, well I'm gonna do something else. There was a sister organization that was just starting to build their cultural center--the physical building, which was my, my dream, my passion, and I went there for ten years, and then I went to go work with the American GI forum, a veteran's organization, for another ten years, and I thought I had retired. I was done. And I, I don't know, Anjee, our paths crossed, and you know, a little job opened up, and I was like, well, lemme just go and talk to her, and Oh my god, you know, I found MACLA to be very different from when I first stepped in. Here it was a vibrant cultural center that was supporting artists and building leadership. (6:06) You know, building arts, arts patrons, building arts workers, and that excited me. So, it was like, Okay, here I am five years later, you know, with my little tiny, my little tiny job, and I--, I--, I'm in a place that i really enjoy every day. It's challenging, yes, but we have the opportunity, again, to build leadership, bring in a younger demographic that's going to be taking, doing the work that we're doing, you know, they're gonna be taking the mantle to continue, and that is what is exciting about the work that we're doing. And in addition to that, the artist as well. You know, we're building, we're helping to build artist careers and giving em direction and support that they need at the very base of where they're starting, so, so, yeah. This is what MACLA does, and you know, partnering with the other partners with LANE, we're able to take a pulse of what's going around, what's going on across the country, and how our experiences can benefit others, and how their experiences can benefit our organization. So, yeah. That's, that's where we're at.

SC: First of all, congratulations on 30 years. 30 years plus, you know, being around. That, that's, that speaks volumes. And that you can go back to form--, formal documents like this, to the documents that were part of the formulation of MACLA, and say, Oh, we are actually still living with the founders, perceived as important for our community that we are still doing that, that we are still at this nexus, is a really beautiful testament to the work that I've seen both of you do, and have the opportunity to be at MACLA and, and see the exhibition that was up and the work that you all have done, so. First and foremost, congratulations on that, and, Oh my god, Letitia, that's, like, the best story. Stories where someone is like, I came to volunteer; I was just hanging around. Next thing you know, you know--that also says something about the environment and the culture that MACLA creates.

LR: Yeah. It was great. It was great.

SC: It feels like there's a certain welcoming.

LR: Oh yeah. Anjee was an intern there, so when I came back, and she was the ED, it was like, Oh my god, this is, this is what I wanna be part of. You know, this is a place that, that brought somebody and empowered them to, to be a leader. And it's like, Oh my god, yes. I wanna be here.

SC: We'll get--. I'm excited to get deeply into that, cause I--. (8:50) That, that says a lot about even what you were talking about around this, like, building leadership can look like a lot of different things, but the fact that you all not only talk about as a current incarnation, but have been participants in, in the arc of leadership at MACLA, again, is how our organizations survive, right? So, welcome to TACtile. So happy to have you both. And we start out every episode with the same question. It's part of what we try and lean into here, is--, TACtile is transforming art and culture; it's a practical guide, but in order to understand the practice, we wanna understand, sort of, the theory behind it. Why certain decisions are made or why certain avenues felt like the right way to go, and part of that is for organizations, for all of our cohort organizations, how do you believe change happens?

AHA: So, to answer that, I mean, there's so many different ways changes happens. Right, I think, even our current items right now, you know, we are in the midst of a pandemic, we're having a recession. I mean there's really--, it's also a time where you know, a lot of the disparities and the inequities that so many of us that have been doing community based work are aware of, and have been working to dismantle, but we've been working within existing power structures and dynamics, right? And the one thing that I am hopeful about during this time is perhaps it is this moment where we can dismantle the inequities and that exist in so many of our communities that have impacted communities of color, Black, brown, trans, I mean, so many folks, right? So I Just think to acknowledge the moment that we're in right now. So, kind of to say, sometimes changes happens quickly because there's a disaster, right? There's a crisis, right? And you have no other choice but to pivot to do something differently because what you knew or what you were doing isn't going to work, right? And sometimes change happens, especially, I think, in the field of broadly performing arts and community-based work, sometimes it's very long and slow, incremental, and sometimes it's painful, you know, just to be--. Like, it's a journey, right? Change--. Change doesn't always happen overnight. And then we've talked about this in LANE; Okay there's our personal change as individuals, of people that show up. (12:08) Then there's our role as we show up within our organization; there's organizational change, there's community change, there's a change with our artists, and then there's the broader field. I think often in our field, it's this deficit model, right? That we all have something that needs to be fixed within our organizations, instead of recognizing the strength and the power and the resilience that we bring to the work that we do. And so, it's often in this kind of capacity building mode. Let's help you be more like a business person or have better return on investments, right? And that's one framework, but that's not the only framework. And that's not the only way of thinking about things. So, I think about all of that as I think about change, and I think, from where I sit, and within MACLA's journey within LANE, this has really been a process of us recognizing our essence and our strength, and I think, you know, so much of what you've brought into the conversation, Sage, is about really imagining, What is the world that we wanna live in? Right? And how do we manifest that in ourselves, in our organizations, in our communities? And how do we really care and support one another? I think is so critical to the change. So that's kind of my long rambling change, but I know Letitia has something super concise and great--.

LR: Change is hard. (SC laughs)

SC: Ah, you are the dynamic duo, you two.

LR: It's hard. But it's good.

SC: Well, and I think, in your ramble there was so much, Anjee. I wouldn't call it a ramble, I would call it a treatise, but--. And you know, I always think about people listening to this, you know, 20, 30 years from now, like, we are in the middle of both a global pandemic and in the middle of our time talking right now in the middle of a rebellion moment inside the country we live in right now. And this idea of, like, what works or what doesn't work is this--, we're seeing so much that doesn't work. I've often seen it called and been attached to this idea of a crisis of legitimacy. Like, these structures that we believed in so much either don't work, have never worked, and how do we, instead of trying to fit ourselves into something that we no longer believe in, how do we find something that we can believe in? And, and that asset, and leaning into those assets. Because you all, before you ever came to LANE, you all were amazing, cause you were already doing those things. You know? And we just wanted to support you in doing them more deeply and name them. So part of my--. The thing I wonder when you were--. Lo, those five years ago. Five, six years ago, thinking about this project and this experiment and that really, you know, I'm grateful for you all for coming along this journey of thinking about how arts organizations of color can build their infrastructure in ways that are aligned with their values and what they're asking from the rest of the world, right? What were some of the things you all were thinking about, like, when you were like, MACLA, we know we need certain things, we know there are some questions that we want to answer, and I like to believe that LANE is a practice space. Right, like, it's a space where you get to try and figure out what are the answers to the questions as opposed to just coming in with the answers and it just being support. So what kind of questions were on your mind? (16:02) And were those still the questions that--, did they continue or did your questions shift as you go into the journey?

LR: You know, one of the things was--. For me, you know. Stepping into this, this whole project, I didn't understand it. I didn't understand MACLA's role. And again, i was looking at our financial picture, and being in the same room as other organizations that had a different financial picture, I was trying to understand where we fit in, in this, and, and what are we going to--, what are we going to take out of this? You know, what, what are we doing? But what I didn't see that in, in our picture is that were were thinking--. How do I say this? We, we were living in a, a sense of scarcity. We, we didn't even see it. It's like, you know, I didn't even see it. You know. Our, our, our performing arts space has no A/C, and it is a sweat box in the summer time. And you know, what do you do? Well, we don't have money to fix--, to, to, to do that, you just buy little black fans, and thinking that that was what we could do. So, so, where we thought we were--. So where I thought we were, we had a good financial picture was not the sense. We were, we were such, so used to, you know, Okay, the door doesn't really open and close, but that's okay, you know. You know, we were just making do. And, and that was starting to come to light, it was like, Yeah, no, other organizations have these things as their norm. Why are we thinking that it's okay? (18:12) You know, that this is our, our, our normal life. And so, that's--, you know, we started to think about--. I started to think about being pushed into thinking, What is ideal, what do we want, what was the best thing for our community and our organization? You know, where we stand, we're down town, we have a block, a corner building, and, you know, why don't we have everything that the two museums down the street have? You know, why are we not thinking like that? So that was--, that was an incredible challenge for us, for me. Of how we're, what is, what is it that we want, what is it, you know, that we look at. It's like, yea, there's more out there, and we just, you know, in the, in the mode of always trying to, you know, get by, didn't have, didn't have the space to think bigger.

SC: Mm-hmm. Mm. Thank you for sharing that, cause I think, you're saying, I, I had that, but I think that is one of the ways in which divestment and, you know, generational divestment, generational disenfranchisement, marginalization, it, it, it gives us a sense that every little thing that we have is, is, is what we deserve, right, like, this is as far as you can go or, and so, the more it's, it's, you know, we've seen it in psychology, like the--, you know, when you're blocked off, you don't imagine that there are other pathways, and so, the--, one of the things that felt really important is to begin to build for ourselves, before we're talking to anybody else.

LR: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

SC: Begin to build for ourselves, like, what we believe is our actual vision, and that we can find it, like, we can have it. (20:13) So thank you for sharing that, cause I remember our first gathering, and there were so many people in the room who were like, what? What? Like, I have intellectual capital? What? I have these things? What? You know.

LR: And, you know, for, you know, for that also, is that, if you're gonna build leadership, then you need to understand that yourself in order to teach that. You know, you want the future leaders to always think big, and not, and not keep--, you know, fall short of, of what their potential is. So, so yeah. It's like, Okay. That was an incredible experience for me. It was like, wow.

AHA: That was so much part of our DNA, that scarcity mindset, right? And while, at the same time, I think we had a great sense of our, kind of, assets within our community, right? And those were our relationships with other artists, with other organizations, with other networks, but for our own internal, like, it was just kind of like, oh, this is how we do things. We don't have the resources, so everyone sweats a lot in the summer in our performances. Or we don't rent out the space, right? Or folks--. So, it's just like, it's like getting over that framework was really a critical moment, I think for our LANE journey. And then, you know, I just went back, and I read our LOI, because I remember, I think in the fall, first, when NPN was talking about LANE having a conversation with Sage and Stanlyn of being like, So tell me more about this LANE initiative, and is this the right path for MACLA to consider? And then I read our LOI from January 2016 and just remember, like, Oh, what a different time that is, right? (22:08) And I think even--. Again, the essence of MACLA is the same, but we were talking a lot about the facility purchase a few years ago, which, again, the facility is still an issue, but that was very, like, much front and center, and we're gonna do a capital campaign, and it's about building board capacity and staff capacity. And those things are still true, but also really looking at the part about, Well, how do we support our team? How do we retain staff in the high cost of living that the Bay Area was at that time, and has kind of, you know, even added more to now, right? I mean, I think, the current moment's kind of put a pause on a lot of things, but you know, just the reality is that traffic here was really challenging, you know, in the past you could live in the East Bay and commute to work at MACLA, and now, kind of no one, you know, would, would really wisely take that opportunity, because it's a couple hours drive, which should be 40 minutes. So, and then also, too, just really understanding like, what does it mean for our organization to build and care for our team? I mean, I think I see a lot of that as I look for it, and that probably wasn't--. It was in there, and now, through this journey, I just realized how important that is, right? And how even, you know, sharing with Letitia, it was like, we had a staff meeting earlier today, and we all took some time to breathe together. And we had had one agenda, but the world had changed since the agenda had been developed, and it was like, Look, I think we need more time for a check in, what does everyone think? And everyone was like, Yeah, let's. And I was like, Okay, those other items, we'll talk about it, but let's do this, let's take care of ourselves first, right? And really you know, create a space for people to be vulnerable and bring their full selves into the role. Which I feel like we always did, but I don't know--. We were always so busy doing the work that we could run ourselves, so we would be too quick or too tired to really think about the care of our team. (24:42) And so, really now it's like, encouraging people, you know, we got notification that we could all get the Calm app for free, so it's like, Hey folks, if this is a useful tool, use it please, right? And I think that's really different than even five years ago, Letitita.

LR: Oh yeah.

AHA: You know, and just really intentionally bringing that together.

SC: Thank you all for sharing that; it's such a journey. Like, it makes me think about the way our organizations get praised for being scrappy. Or, like, all these words that mean like, Oh, isn't it amazing--. Oh you're a miraculous--. You're magical, You're--. And you're like, No, we actually have less and do more, and that actually isn't a path to wellness.

AHA: Right.

SC: So how do you go from scrappy to health and wellness? And it sounds like the journey you all have made also is like, How do you go from sort of property to the people--

AHA: Yeah.

SC: --in the journey of understanding what organizational health means? So thank you for sharing that, and, and, thank you for thinking about your people and taking a moment to check in with each other and see how, what folks need. I think that the, the arc of organizational health is certainly, I hope, within LANE and in other organizations moving from our bottomline, our, our PNL's, our, our budgets, to the wellness of the people who are doing the work, which then impacts the experience of folks who get to come in contact with you. One of the things that I'd like to talk a little bit more about care for your team and your people. Cause one of the things that I often think about MACLA and your journey has been about finding the right matrix of folks, how, and, and having folks positioned in ways and, and you all have been really beautiful in, in, in your experimentation of, like, trying new things. (26:49) I remember there was a time when there was, you know, Letitia, director of operations was doing some program oversight. Can you talk about some of the things that you learned in that experimentation of hiring or shifting staff that has helped you get to this more, like, human centered, well being centered organizational health model?

LR: That was a challenge. That was a big challenge for us. We went through a period of time when we thought we were ready to jump into our, our, our plan, and everything was lined up. We had, you know, the funds, we had the budget, we had everything. Everything in place and we were focused on, you know, the organization and its, its directions, and no. No. That was not the case. That was so far from, from being the--, from, you know, plan to paper. It, it, it--. And we were--. We were surprised. Cause we thought--. We thought we were, we were on the right path, and come to find and understand, you know, with, with LANE's support is that the structure of our organization was not--, was no longer working. (28:19) And we had to--. Rather than jump on this train and hire these people and move forward and just, you know, do this incredible programming, we had to slam on the brakes. We literally had to slam on the brakes to stop and fix our house. You know. Fix, fix what we have, before we brought more people in. You know, we just couldn't bring somebody in into--. It wasn't chaos, it just was not a good, a good structure.

AHA: Yeah, I know. Letitia you're--, you're so eloquent about how challenging that time was. And just deeply grateful for my partnership with you in this journey, because, you know, I think I've always believed in shared leadership, and you know, look to bring in and to support more folks in their leadership roles, and realizing that sometimes it takes people time and understanding to step into a role, and also, acknowledging that leadership looks different for different folks, and though we had done a lot of deep conversations with our team at MACLA about the transformation we're hoping to achieve and saying, Is everyone on board, are we building this together, we realized that yea, there was some hierarchy in our organization, and there was some points where it could have been more of an opportunity to go deeper into building the relationships that would hold us through times of challenge. (30:13) And that we didn't necessarily do all of that work, right? And so, as Letitia shared, Okay, we got the financial resources, we're ready to go make things happen, and then, absolutely put the brakes on it to a screeching halt. And for someone that, you know, I'm okay with things being iterative, but I'm also like, Let's get it done. Let's make things happen. I was really frustrated, and I knew absolutely we had to do the work internally and really do the deep work with the buy-in to say, Look this is where we wanna go and we know this journey may be challenging for some folks. We know this is different perhaps than when you signed on, and that's okay. So how do we come in and out of this space, right? And what makes sense, right? And really kind of letting each individual articulate what that looks like for them and, and being as supportive as we can, but also knowing that we need to have somewhat of a stable foundation--, I don't think you ever have an absolutely--. Right, I think that's the, that's the beauty even within LANE is to--. Instead of being scared or frustrated by shifting landscapes and different things happening to be like, Oh, change will happen, right? And it's really about, how do you center yourself, your team, your organization, and move through that change, and where, where does that change put folks, right? And how does that change as an opportunity to more align with our values? (32:03)

SC: Thank you for that. I think that's a beautiful example of what you're both talking about of what generative--we both say the term generative tension, right? That's it's not just tension for tensions' sake, but that there is something born out of that, that rub that is actually more than would have been capable had you just pretended the tension doesn't exist. Just moved alone, you know, good luck. Here's a therapist's number, good luck with that. You know, and just kept on going. And I think that also, I wanna uplift what you, you said, Anjree, about having the conversation with people about, This is where we're headed. How do you find yourself in it? Do you find yourself in it? And if not, there are loving transitions that can happen, right? And I think you all have, have really helped folks find their, find their place inside a vision that you knew was going somewhere.

AHA: Yeah.

SC: In a way that feels very collaborative, collective, you know. I always say, like, this idea of decentralized leadership doesn't mean there's no leadership. (laugh). Right, like, leadership happens. How do you bring everyone involved in the direction and journey?

LR: You know, as much as you try to support and support and, you know, make things work, you know, from, from where I sat, we're looking at numbers, you know? At the end of the day, we're a business. And If it's not going to work, then we need to make a change. And if you can't make it, we're gonna make it for you. And that was hard. You know, that was, that was incredibly hard. You know. My sons work in tech, the tech industry. They said, Mom, what are you doing? You know, out the door. And I was like, Yeah, no, let's, let's, you know, we're gonna have another meeting and, you know, and then it's like, Mom, that's not how--. I was like, Oh my god. I said, That's why you're in a different place than I am. But we can't go too far from that, though. You know, there's, there's the reality of, of how we wanna move forward. (34:19) And so, yeah, we had to make those, those decisions for people and, and just lay it all out. You know, you either wanna be here and move forward or--. It can't be like it was before. You know, and I--. I keep, I keep going back to the, the growth mindset. Now, in hindsight, I--. There was people that--. You know, We always did it this way. And there's no change. It's like, Yeah, there is change.

SC: You've got leadership saying, Change happens all the time.

LR: Yeah.

SC: But how do you align? It sounds like you all took really--. Took the time to find your principled no. I don't know if they do that in the tech industry, if they have a principled no.

LR: Yeah, no, they don't. (all laugh)

SC: But you all. You all took the time to find your--

LR: Yeah, no they don't.

SC: No. Anjee, you mentioned a little bit about, like, the traffic, and what that meant. Like, so, what that got my mind percolating on is like, the external conditions that impact how our organizations are able to function. And I wonder if you all can talk a little bit about your assets as an organization and the conditions that--, and how they played a role in how you addressed some of the conditions, right? Like, some of the things that were inside the organization, your values, the things like how you function, and how you used those to meet some of the external conditions that make MACLA's health challenging. Whether it's gentrification, whether it's traffic, whether it's ticket prices, what does it mean to be in community?

AHA: Yeah, no, those are great questions, Sage. So. I mean, I think, you know, a few things. Like you were even saying earlier, we really took that kind of scrappy approach as an organization. Like, we were, and often we weren't always as healthy as we should be to make things happen, right? I think earlier in my timeline as an ED, folks would say, Oh no, we need to work 60, 70 hours to do this work. And it's like, Okay, so maybe you can do that a week, maybe two, but beyond that, you're gonna burn out, right? (36:33) And so, how do we refocus, right? And again, as an organization, during the last several years, you know, we've grown based upon a couple of different sources. But a lot of it was the ability to attract more organized philanthropy, right? So, being able to get attention from funders, and have investments, and government, growth of government contracts and different opportunities. And all of that became a lot to manage, right? And so, understanding for us, like, what got us to this level won't get us to the next level, right? Like, you can't-. Like at a certain point, you can't scale any more. Or, if you're gonna scale, you're gonna become some completely other structure. And so, understanding, you know, just the context up until recently, it's like, Oh. Earlier, in my career, you could live in San Francisco and commute to San Jose, and it would be fine, or San Francisco, right? You could have this more regional approach. but with the high cost of living here and with the traffic and the density, these are all external forces that are pushing, and if you think about people's quality of life, it's like, Yes. You could live in the central valley and commute to MACLA, but you're not gonna be happy. Right? And I think, as Letitia and I were, you know, hiring folks and bringing folks in our team, and the more that we were clear on what our values are--. Like, I don't think in the past we would say, We want you, specifically to be a healthy, happy person when you walk in the door. Like, we all have bad days, we all have challenges, it's not gonna always be perfect. But we don't wanna create structures that add more stress to your life. (38:31) Right? And so, how do we think about our role as an organization, as an employer, as a collaborator, really, in the work that we're all trying to do, in a way that is more just and more human centered and understanding how critical it is to care for our team. So, I think that's something that's really come into play in the last few years. And, and to really encourage people to take personal time, right? I mean, we have--. There's whatever's in our HR handbook, and that's there, and I'm not dismissive of that, that's critical, right? And also, I think when this early, when this happened, this being COVID, right? You know, we had to cancel a major production, We Have Iré, that we actually had an NPN Creation Fund award to support by Paul Flores, a really critical work uplifting the voices and stories of Afro Cuban artists, right? A big multi year production. We'd been incubating this and we had to cancel it, and postpone it because of COVID. And it was hard. It was a hard decision for us to make. It was hard for our staff. And we had to do it, and so we said, Okay, we're doing this. We know this has been a tough time for our team. Let's have everyone just take a personal day on Monday. Right, like, go outside, go take a hike. Go do whatever you need to do to feel better, and then we'll regroup as a team on Tuesday, but you're paid for that day. That's that, right? (40:21) And I think it's being part of this process and really thinking about the external things coming in to say, Okay, well what do we need to be happy and healthy as humans doing this work? And and thinking about that. And then just even, too, kind of, going off on a little bit--, another tangent here, but thinking about with Paul Flores, right? You know, we've never had to cancel a production, a residency. Never never never. I mean, occasionally artists have had to postpone things for their own health or other issues, but that's that. And so, you know, we were trying to understand, How do we navigate through this, right? What's--, what's the contractual thing for us to do, what's the right thing for us to do? And it was hard. And you know, we, we read through our agreement and it was like, Well, I guess this is like those acts of nature and those indemnity clauses that you cancel things, you know, Our, our obligation was only to, I think, pay the artists I think like ten or fifteen percent of the contract. And when we sat and we thought about it, and we were like, Well, wait a minute, all of--. We have 15 people that would've been part of this production performing on our stage, plus our own tech people, plus our hourly folks that were gonna work this event. Everyone was expecting to get paid for next week. They weren't expecting a pandemic to happen. I guess we weren't, right? And so really understanding, What's our moral obligation to our artists and to everyone that we work with. And so, you know, we looked at what was said. And then we also made the decision that it's like, No, this is absolutely the time that we need to take leadership and live our values, and we paid our artists in full for that production. We paid our tech folks in full for the hours we had scheduled them for, because that's the right thing to do, and we are hoping that other folks take leadership. (42:35) And we know that not all organizations might've been in a position to take a financial hit like we did with this, but it was absolutely the right thing to do, and I also think it really brought us additional credibility of living our values with our artists and with those that we partner with.

SC: Thank you. And, and, and, in my imagination, because you all take the stance that is the right stance or the contractual stance and, and this place, that it also gives you a different level of credibility with some of the organized philanthropy that you talked about. So then you can look to them and say, I'm living the values that we are in partnership about. Where do you show up with what you have to offer in this scenario, and can--. Which is often, How do you support our organization financially? Like, if we're gonna take the hit because it's the right thing to do for the artists, then how can we also look to those who are funding and supporting our organizations and say, You have some of the similar words in your mission that I have in my mission, right? So, where do you come in, in terms of making this right for everyone? And there's a, a, a, you know, the L in LANE stands for Leverage. (laugh). Like, how do we, how do we really--. and sometimes that looks like a little bit of a crowbar, and sometimes it looks like an email. (44:06) It could be--. You just never know what you're, what you're gonna get. But by taking the stance that you have, you absolutely increase the amount of leverage that you have, and it's less of a hat in hand, and more of a stand up, and are you going to stand with me moment. And so I, I, I have so much respect for you all, and I have so much respect for the work that you all do in those moments. Cause they're scary.

AHA: Yeah.

LR: It had a good, in addition to that, it had a really, a really positive effect on our, on our staff. That, for them to see that, Hey, you know, this is the organization that we work with, and this--. They stand up for their, for their values, and I'm part of it. So that really empowered them and just, just, it was just, really great to see that, that they repeated it over and over, and now, you know, they truly--. It's one thing when you know something you hear something, but when you actually feel it, it makes a difference. And it, it did. You know, and it continues to do that. So, that's great. We're really happy about that.

SC: It makes you feel like you might drive a little farther to work for that organization.

LR: Yeah. Yeah.

SC: So, Letitia, you were talking about, Change is hard. (laugh) And, and I'm curious about, and this is for both of you. I'm curious about, what were some of the hard places that you might've found, and were there ways that you, you figured out or ways that you wound up making them softer? Like, when you, when you hit a rub, or--.

LR: I, I think the first, the first, the first one was we, we broke our organizations chart apart. You know, we, we just went back and we looked at it. (46:08) Just because you know, you're you, then you supervise this one and this one and this one, and, you know, because the organization chart says so, that's how it's gonna happen. And that's what we realized that, Yeah, no, that's not a good--, that's not a good way to think. And, and again, what Anjee was talking about, it was how people took leadership. And the reality is, not everybody wants to be a leader. People are comfortable being, you know, a supporter, and a follower, and if you impose that, then you're setting them up to fail. So we had to take--, break it down and look at how, look at it differently, you know? And in doing that, we also had to change how we communicate with each other, you know? It's like, how do we communicate with each other? And we used a LANE resource on how to, best ways to communicate. And the fact that we were even talking about it was, was a change. It was like, Oh, you know, just, no, that's not--. It's just something that also needed to be fixed. And once we, we accepted those and we acknowledged those, you know, it was like putting a puzzle back together again, but it was a different puzzle. And it felt better. People felt empowered and inclusive in the decision making. And that was the other one. The other one was the, the shared philanthropy. You know, we had people spending money that, you know, MACLA will pay for it.

SC: Mmm.

LR: It's like, Yeah, no. You know? You wanna spend it, but what is your role in bringing funds in?

SC: Oh, interesting.

LR: Everybody has a role. In everything that you're doing, everybody has a role. It's not like it's somebody else's, somebody else's job. (48:06) Which is what the thinking was prior to that. So we changed that, that whole, that whole practice and that whole, that whole philosophy. It was like, Yeah, it's not somebody's job. It's everybody's job. To be accountable for money coming in and money coming out. Money going out. And that was, you know, between that, the org chart, and the communications, and how communication flowed, who made the decisions. We, we, we had group meetings, and this is the agenda. If we're gonna meet, give me an agenda so we don't waste time. You know, your time is just as valuable as mine, so, you know, give me, you know, send me that and let me know what we're gonna cover, you know? Those kinds of practices and so, you know, those are the, the you know, again, with the workshops that we had with LANE, you know, you get the ideas from talking to our partners and the speakers that you brought, and it's like, Yeah, I like the way you talk, we need to bring them with us. And we, we, we did a lot of that, so. And again, you know, that's why we think--, our success has been on all the resources that we've been able to, you know, experience with our LANE workshops. That's why every single one of em was just a, you know, a treasure box of gems of, of information and resources and ideas and, you know, it was great. I miss them.

SC: That's really exciting. Because what I, what I, what I felt listening to you, Letitia, is that, you know, the wellbeing of the organization is spread amongst everyone. Not to say that everyone does the same body of work. It doesn't mean that the person, the receptionist is now responsible for entertaining, you know, donors, or the--. But that from wherever you position yourself, from wherever you sit, you are invested in the wellbeing and the health of this organization. That, and that that is a part of the lens by which you do whatever it is you do.

LR: Yea. (50:28)

SC: It's like a real organization culture shift. Like a culture shift inside where you were, and I just wanna shout out, and I think you're referring to Lisa Jervis and Information Ecology.

LR: Yep.

AHA: Yes!

SC: So, I just wanna shout out, Information Ecology.

LR: She did a great job with us.

SC: A wonderful partner.

LR: Ennis--, was it Ennis Carter?

SC: Ennis Carter?

LR: Yes.

SC: Ennis Carter and Social Impact Studios.

AHA: Yep, yep.

SC: Cause I think there's sometimes an assumption that we can figure some things out about how we talk to each other. And there are people who do this. Help us figure out how, you know, It's almost like a relationship coach for an organization, right, like? What do we need to be saying to each other so that we hear each other, and we're building the same things. Gorgeous. Are there things that surprised you? Either about yourselves, your team, or things that came in from LANE that you're like, Oh. Oh, that's something I should be thinking about? I hadn't thought about that before. A little pop up toy of what you mean. And then a Jack in the Box. Oh! Look at that. Who knew?

AHA: I think what surprised me during this journey is how clear we were initially about where we wanted to go. And I thought we had a pretty good road map of how we were gonna get there, and we were pretty confident of, like, Oh, this is, this is what we're gonna do, and this is how it's gonna go, and I think thinking about just the outcome didn’t allow the journey that needed to happen happen. Right, so if I could reshape this, right? We were thinking about, like, well, what's the end result or what do we wanna get to, and here's our preconceived ideas about how to do it, and kind of sharing, as Letitia was, this transformation with our team, building a culture of philanthropy, building more shared leadership, really having Letitia step up as a leader within our organization. (52:52) All of these things--. I wanna, you know, I think like, in some grant reports you have to write about, like, what were the unintended consequences of this grant, you know. And kind of in that vein, but in a really amazing way, it's like, the unintended consequence, or the beauty of this journey was really all of these learnings that came along that we had no idea we even needed, and just understanding how transformative that has been, right? So I think, you know, Sage, you've always been talking about he work of adrienne maree brown and Emergent Strategy. And I was always like, Okay, it's on my reading list. I'll get to it. I'll download it. You know, and then I found myself in a time last year where I was like, Okay, I have it downloaded, I have a hard copy, I'm gonna--, I was like, let me get my head around what Sage is talking about. and i opened the book, and I think Tanya from Su Teatro had said, Don't worry about having to read it start to finish, you could just even open up pages, and it will be what you need. Right? And I remember opening up something and reading and then being like, Oh, so much is about this flocking, this gathering, right? (54:17) It's about how you see things in nature and how that relates to our human condition. And I was really like, I was like, Oh my goodness, Sage really is sage, right? (laugh) I mean, I was having this kind of quasi religious experience. And just like in tears of just being like, Oh, now I get it. Now I understand what this journey has meant to be as part of LANE, and to be in community with such an amazing inspirational group of people, and to have this change happen within ourselves as individuals, our organization, our teams and just really--. I think being more in community, right? I think even though org--, MACLA as an organization had always been thinking about asset mapping and community development, you know, from an asset point of view. I also think to some degree, we had had some individualistic points of view, righ, as an organization, and really now thinking deeply and broadly about, Well, what is the ecosystem? And how do we support others? And how do we amplify their voices? And, you know, again, always as we have lived our values, but being really specific and saying, Oh, if we're gonna order food for a MACLA event, let's support our local Latinx immigrant run business, like, that's us living our values, right? And there's so many different ways that that shows up, but just really, you know, grateful for you, Sage, for your leadership and inspiration, and mentorship that you've just provided during this whole opportunity. So I think that, for me, that's the big surprise. (56:08) Because I had no idea we even needed that, and just wanna thank you so much with so much gratitude.

SC: It is, it is my honor, really, to walk with all of you all, and LANE is an amazing cohort of organizations that have been doing the work for so long and supporting so many brilliant artists and community members and holding down the NPN community network, you know, and staying in the mix there. Yeah. It was really clear in your applications and your interviews to become part of LANE that there was some--, you knew there was somewhere to go. And you knew that this was some type of vehicle. Even though you might not've known where the vehicle was going. (All laugh) You know, we all kinda climbed in the Scooby van and--.

LR: And I was in the backseat going, Why? Why are we going, Anjee? Wha--? Wha--? What are we gonna do? Why? It was like, Okay, just sit, buckle up. But, yeah.there we go.

SC: I'm grateful that we get to land in this place together and, and stay together. And stay together as we continue to move foward. I'm so grateful for your time today. So truly. I'm gonna give you, if there's anything else you wanna share that I haven't asked. I always like to offer that.

LR: We're still growing. We're still moving forward. We're still learning all kinds of things. You know. And that's the exciting, you know, the path that we have. We're just, we're ready to move forward. We're ready to just keep going and building, again, you know, my joy is looking at our leadership that we're, that we're fostering inside of our organization. No, they're not gonna be with us for, you know, 20 years or ten years, but they're gonna go off and do great things. (58:16) And you know, as, as they transition off, we bring new people in to start, you know, bringing in all the right, giving them the right tools and support that they need and yeah, NO, that's, that's MACLA's role, and we're, we're excited.

AHA: Yeah, I just wanna echo, like, I'm super inspired by our team and about the work of our artists and our community and know that these are challenging, really challenging times right now, and I think, I'm hopeful that on the other side of this time that we will have more equity and justice within our world and within our community. And so, just, again, grateful to spend time with both of you today talking about MACLA's LANE journey.

SC: Well, take good care.

LR: Thank you.

AHA: Thanks.

SC: This has been a recording of TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture, the podcast of Leveraging A Network for Equity, LANE. LANE is a program of the National Performance Network. LANE is sponsored by the Andrew W Mellon Foundation. If you would like more information on LANE, our cohort members, or the National Performance Network, please visit www.npnweb.org. Thank you for listening. And please, share TACtile with your friends and colleagues. (59:56)