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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Andy Miller III: Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast I am so glad that you have come along, and if you had checked out various other podcasts that I had, that was under a description of talking about August start, that over Jay.
Jay Therrell: Okay.
Andy Miller III: And in 3, 2, 1 welcome to the more to story. Podcast, I'm so glad that you all have come along for this important set of episodes. We're talking about leadership in the Church specifically as it relates to the emerging global Methodist church and the way they are looking at leadership at an administrative and pastoral level as it comes through bishops or not. There's a lot of different plans that are out
Andy Miller III: on the table, and I've had 9 interviews with the candidates who people have been proposed for one plan. But today I'm going to look at another plan. But before I do that, I want you to know that this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where I serve as President, and where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we have just enrolled
Andy Miller III: our largest student body in our history. We have more than 800 students who are actively participating in academic programs.
Andy Miller III: Oh, 715 academic programs. 50 of them are a non academic program. I'm gonna be clear there. Here at Wbs, one programs. The non academic programs are Wesley Institute, which you could still get into. Now, which is a 9 month program that walks people through every book of the Bible with seminary professors teaching, and that's a weekly session. This is A. There's many churches around the country that are using this to train Sunday school teachers
Andy Miller III: to get them more deep content, something that they can use in their local settings. And then there's also a theology track. So there's a Bible track and a theology track where we walk through basic theological disciplines. And that again happens over a 9 month period. So you can find out more about that@wbs.edu. In addition to our bachelors, masters, doctoral degrees, we'd love for you to find out about what we're doing here at
Andy Miller III: Wbs. Also, I'd love for you to sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the 3rd.com. That's Andymiller iii.com. And if you sign up for my email list I will send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. And then on top of that, if you see my website you'll see some things that might be helpful for Sunday School classes in small groups under the course tab. There's a course on heaven. There's a course in the book of Jude, I'd love for you to check that out.
Andy Miller III: Okay, I am so glad to welcome into the podcast my new friend. We just met Jay Ferrell. And I hope I had you said, say your name correctly. He was the President pro tem. Of the Florida Conference of the Gmc. Jay welcome to the Podcast.
Jay Therrell: Thanks for having me, Andy. I appreciate it.
Andy Miller III: Well, I've known about you for a while because of some of the things, the ways that you were. Well, I I'm trying to come up with a nice way of saying it. You've had some rough days toward the end of your time with the United Methodist Church, and really we're we're somebody. You're somebody who's in the spotlight because of your stance. I would just love to hear a little bit of your story kind of emerging into global Methodist church that might even set the stage for the main topic that we're going to talk about today.
Jay Therrell: Sure. You know.
Jay Therrell: my departure from the United Methodist Church began when I was a district superintendent in the Florida Conference of the umc and
Jay Therrell: my goodness, like it's very long and.
Andy Miller III: Oh, sorry. I know this is a podcast in itself. I'm not so.
Jay Therrell: Exactly it probably is. But I I just could not continue to serve in that environment, and was essentially given an ultimatum.
Jay Therrell: Either, you know, bend the knee or get off my cabinet and.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Jay Therrell: Response was.
Jay Therrell: then I'll get off your Cabinet, and from there started as President of the Florida Regional Chapter for the West Lane Covenant Association, and then I was very humbled to to be asked to follow Keith Boyette as global President of the West Lane Covenant Association, and really worked the whole final disaffiliation window to help get the 7,000 plus churches out of the United Methodist Church, and
Jay Therrell: to try our best to contend to to help our African and European and Asian brothers and sisters to get out too. We did not have much help there, but.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, play.
Jay Therrell: It. It was a privilege to serve as President of the Wca. And do that, and then to transition to this role as president pro tip here in Florida. And get this annual conference started. We just celebrated our one year birthday a few days ago. September 1st was our.
Andy Miller III: On, your.
Jay Therrell: And it's been a wild ride it has been a ride where
Jay Therrell: I have seen God be so faithful throughout the whole process. I don't deserve that, but he is so good.
Jay Therrell: and it's
Jay Therrell: it's been a beautiful thing to see how God has brought this new thing into existence.
Andy Miller III: Is.
Jay Therrell: It's. It is beautiful.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, I've I've said that I started to catch myself as I've been doing interviews lately. I've been saying the word beautiful often.
Andy Miller III: because I think this is a descriptive of this moment. This isn't. And and even what we're going to talk about today. I know there's there are disagreements, but I I sense, and you know, correct me if I'm wrong. But I sense a spirit of cooperation even in the middle of those disagreements. Can you tell me about that, because I mean, this probably is. And this, and and from my seat, the educational requirements for clergy. That's something I'm thinking a lot about.
Andy Miller III: and that's a that's a hot button topic. But I think the the plan that you're a part of of writing often called the Florida Florida plan might be seen as one of the biggest issue, one of the issues that people are anticipating the most at the convening conference. So tell me about the even like the the spirit that's around some of this now, and like the spirit of cooperation, even in the middle of this time.
Jay Therrell: Sure. I I guess maybe I'd start by saying we hold this all very loosely.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Jay Therrell: And we trust that the Holy Spirit is in the midst of it, and that when we get to San Jose and whatever comes out. I I'm very sure whatever plan gets adopted is not going to be the original plan, submitted I I'm very positive of that. Whatever comes out is going to be amended. And we're okay. With that, we we're absolutely okay. With that, I, someone said recently.
Jay Therrell: I can't even remember who it was now. But someone said recently that they maybe it was Rob Renfro that
Jay Therrell: yep.
Jay Therrell: whatever plan we choose is important. But it's not nearly as important. Whenever we elect bishops, that we elect the right people.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jay Therrell: Which is kind of the old good to great mindset of getting not only getting the right people on the bus, but getting them in the right seats on the bus, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. So we're I mean, obviously, you know, the Florida delegation is a zealous advocate for our plan, and we don't apologize for that. But at the same time, yeah, we're we're good with coming together and conferencing together with brothers and sisters, and we trust it'll get worked out the right way.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, absolutely. And you, you're somewhat uniquely equipped for this. Be with your own history. But I I assume at some point you served as a lawyer, or at least you went to law school right? And so this is. You and Keith Boyette both have that in background. Tell us a little about your history. Before you became a district superintendent, and like how God's equipped you for this moment.
Jay Therrell: Yeah, I I practiced law for a few years. I was a tax lawyer, state planner,
Jay Therrell: little corporate, all that kind of stuff. My wife's an attorney
Jay Therrell: but very quickly realized that just was not what God was calling me to do, and became a pastor pretty quickly the the kind of again that that story, too. You could take a look. But kind of the the thing that I think always
Jay Therrell: interest people when I share it was when I finally stopped fighting God and said, All right, I will.
Jay Therrell: I will be obedient to this call you placed on me. I don't want to do it, but I'll be obedient. Yeah, I I went to the president of the firm that I worked for. In fact, I was his associate, and I took my resignation letter to him and gave it to him, and and he looked at me, and he said, Well,
Jay Therrell: Our. So our law firm has sent 6 other pastors to attorneys to seminary. I guess we'll have to send a 7.th
Andy Miller III: Oh, wow!
Jay Therrell: I had no idea that that was part of the history of our firm. You could have knocked me over with a feather. It was truly a God thing and just. They were
Jay Therrell: absolutely amazing. And such a blessing to our family! They let me work part time. Most law firms don't do that while I went to school, and it it was a a just a really cool thing to to have that work out. But yes, I. So I did. Used to practice law, but I you know I I'm sure Keith would probably say the same thing. I don't think of myself as a lawyer. I am still a member of the bar, but I you know, I think of myself as a pastor.
Andy Miller III: Right right, but but thankfully, some of those experiences are helpful to have a pastor who has that that background, and I think, as I was. I don't know how much my story. I'm new to the I wasn't from the Gmc. So I came from the Salvation Army into the gmc, so there is not any sense of bottom up leadership in the Salvation Army, and I'm not saying anything rude about that system. It's a top down system.
Jay Therrell: The way it's structured.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it is an army. It's an absolute military system. And so because I've I've been so surprised and and
Andy Miller III: pleasantly to see the way. Various people who have gifts who are interested in writing legislation
Andy Miller III: are doing now. I didn't know that meant when I was accepted the opportunity to be a delegate that I have to read 700 pages of that type of writing. But there it is, there it is. So we're moving forward in that way.
Jay Therrell: Yep, yep, and.
Andy Miller III: I'm thankful for it that you all have a say that somebody who has that background, and then it may be some others late. There's lawyers on our lay delegates on our delegation or lawyers. I'm thankful I'm so thankful that they have opportunity to speak into life of this new denomination.
Jay Therrell: That's that's part of the the beauty of the body of Christ, you know. There's so many of us, and it takes all of us coming together to be able to carry out the mission we've been entrusted with. So I it's a
Jay Therrell: I I think it's just part and parcel of being a follower of Jesus. It's a it's a great thing.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely well. You mentioned your leadership of the Wesley and Covenant Association internationally, and then locally, too. And that's a part of the context for what has been called the Florida or the hybrid plan, which, when you're you're one of the principal authors of so tell us about that like, why, why, how does the Wca. Enter into that story? Even the background for this legislation.
Jay Therrell: Yeah. So the the Wesley Covenant Association had created a draft book of doctrines and discipline many years ago probably is probably around 2017 was when it came out, and part of the draft book of doctrines and discipline was a model for the Episcopacy.
Jay Therrell: and it is the model upon which most of us went around to local congregations when we were encouraging them to join the Gmc. You know I I know I did that a lot in my role people all over the world. I I spoke to, and I would often tell them.
Jay Therrell: you know, while I, while we have not chosen a model of an Episcopacy. Yet here is the model that we've kind of put out there. It's probably going to look something like this. I have no doubt it will get amended, but it will look something like this.
Jay Therrell: And so
Jay Therrell: I, you know I am actually personal friends. I think, with every single person on the Commission that put the general superintendency plan out, and I
Jay Therrell: love them all. But there are some aspects of that plan that are very different than what was in the Wca. Model that many of us shared about with a lot of people. And so to us in Florida it just felt
Jay Therrell: it felt like we needed to at least put that model forward so the General Conference could consider it that it would almost feel a little disingenuous if we did not put that model forward and allow it to be considered by the delegates that were there, because so many of us had shared
Jay Therrell: aspects of it with people around, not only United States, but around the globe.
Andy Miller III: Gotcha, so that at least it has a a fair representation of something that was the basis for why people might have, or or or a piece of why people might have left. So do I hear? And you kind of like a sense of like you wonder if that is, is it going to even pass? Are you skeptical that it will even go forward.
Jay Therrell: You know, I I always believe that I'm the underdog. So. And I
Jay Therrell: I just think that's a healthy way to view yourself. And so you know, the the General Superintendent plan comes with the blessing of the Transitional Leadership Council. And so I I you know, I kind of
Jay Therrell: kind of like a a candidate who has the the extra addition of incumbacy helping them. Yeah, I I you know. I sure, of course I think they have that going for them, but but we truly believe that this is the better plan, and I'm happy to discuss why.
Andy Miller III: Tell me about that. What are the key? Differences? Or I? I know that might not mean you have to describe the other, or just describe yours first, st however, however, you're comfortable. I mean you've communicated this often so.
Jay Therrell: Whatever.
Andy Miller III: Clearest way is forward. I'm glad to hear from you.
Jay Therrell: So that
Jay Therrell: the main
Jay Therrell: goal for our plan is we want to ensure that the global Methodist church remains a movement for as long as possible
Jay Therrell: and not become an institution.
Jay Therrell: And
Jay Therrell: we think that that happens
Jay Therrell: by keeping our structure as flat
Jay Therrell: and as decentralized as possible.
Jay Therrell: And so that's what we're trying to achieve here, we're trying to keep a smaller footprint. Institutionally, we're trying to create flexibility. We're trying to lower cost
Jay Therrell: so that more dollars remain in the local church so that they can do ministry with it. I
Jay Therrell: I think everyone would agree in the global Methodist church.
Jay Therrell: the the primary, if not the only disciple making tool in the in the world is the local church. That's where that's where disciples are made. Annual conferences don't make disciples. General conferences don't make disciples. I've been delegates at those in our former denomination. There was not one single disciple that was made at those they're made at the local church, and so we want to do everything we can to make sure that the local church is as empowered as possible.
Jay Therrell: and has as much money as possible, and is less of a structure above it, so that the local church can be unburdened and carry out its duty. So that's really kind of the the philosophical reason behind the plan.
Andy Miller III: That's helpful. So when you talk about movement institution, what is it specifically about your plan, then, that enables it to be more of a movement, because in general, like it seems like you have
Andy Miller III: a a regional bishop.
Andy Miller III: That's chosen from a a pool of bishops, and this would be after 2026 right? Your plan doesn't have anything. If forgive me for saying your plan. I know there's
Andy Miller III: other people who are part of writing it. Just want to acknowledge that. But your plan that you're representing here. At least it doesn't elect bishops for 2 years and correct me if I'm wrong. And then in 2 years, then there is a pool of bishops that are elected by the General Conference, and then an annual conference can select one of those bishops to serve, and then but they have
Andy Miller III: more power than than the other plan that those bishops would have. It would help me help me know what happens then? In that local, your, your.
Jay Therrell: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Face! That makes me say I might not have had that right.
Jay Therrell: Well, you're close so 1st of all, we do not. Our plan does not elect any bishops in 2024 all due respect to the 9 that are currently running and the others who've now been listed as potentially joining them. And again, as I said to you earlier. I think I know every single one of them, many of whom are close personal friends. They're all wonderful people, and if they run in 2026
Jay Therrell: I'm more than happy to vote for them. I think they're amazing people. We think this feels very rushed. It is very bizarre to us to be a
Jay Therrell: possibly electing bishops before we even have a structure to which we're electing them to that just seems really strange to us, because we don't know what our structure is going to be. But yet we have nominees, and they're doing interviews and sending out information over e-blast and all that sort of thing. It. It just seems very strange, and if we're being really honest, it's gotten messy already.
Jay Therrell: There have been. There's been some drama the past few weeks around all that and I think it's probably likely to get messier, and I think it also, when we have a very truncated amount of time in Costa Rica, and a lot to accomplish in a very short period of time. That has been an extra piece that has to be inserted into that agenda to try to get it all done in time, and
Jay Therrell: we just don't think it needs to happen. So our plan would take the President's pro tem. That are currently serving
Jay Therrell: and would rename them. Conference superintendents
Jay Therrell: only serve for 2 years, so they would just be serving from 24 to 26.
Jay Therrell: Conference superintendents, a lot of people don't, or President's pro tem. A lot of people don't realize have all the authority of a bishop. Now, with the exception of 2 things. They cannot lay their hands on someone's head and ordain them. And our plan doesn't give them that authority either.
Andy Miller III: Okay, so.
Jay Therrell: Only thing our plan would give a President pro tem. Or a conference superintendent that they don't have now is the authority to fix an appointment.
Jay Therrell: But in reality, Andy, that's already going on because
Jay Therrell: it's the President's pro team and their cabinets that are making the appointments. We we just send an email off to Bishop Webb or Bishop Jones and say, Hey, our Cabinet has worked with this church closely. We've consulted here all the ways we've done that we believe this pastor and this church are a good match, and they just forward that email off to the benefits office. So it it, you know, and it's it that is not a slam on either of them. I adore Scott and Mark. They're great. They just have yeah
Jay Therrell: lots to do. And that that's just something that we we can be doing. There's no, they have 20 conferences a piece, and there's no way they can be involved in the appointment processes of 20 conferences. So it it really just allows us to continue in the way that we're operating now without having to try and to elect bishops when we don't even have a structure in place. Our our motto in Florida is perfect. Then elect
Jay Therrell: perfect. 24 elect in 26.
Jay Therrell: President's pro team are functioning fine now, and they've already established relationships and created leadership capital. Let's just leverage that for the next 2 years and not be so rushed it almost with all due respect, feels to me a little bit like Israel clamoring for a king. They want a king so badly, and God says you don't know what you're asking for, and then he gives them one. You know. I
Jay Therrell: let's take some time
Jay Therrell: to think through this.
Jay Therrell: Get a plan in 24 still have an opportunity in 26 to tweak it if we need to, and we come back and elect folks in 26.
Andy Miller III: Actually. And you mentioned the
Andy Miller III: this waiting period, and that it would basically for these 2 years just be anticipating the legislation that would be put in place at this end. Interim period. But
Andy Miller III: bishops Webb and Jones,
Andy Miller III: part of what has seems to be appealing about the Tlc plane just to me personally, is that I've appreciated their leadership, and as somebody new to the Gmc. Who didn't come from the Umc, I've liked the way that I can see
Andy Miller III: these leaders providing a connection, but a and also leadership where there there is, even if it is just a functional approving of an email. And I'm not in any of those conversations or on any of those emails there. There is some sense of authority that they have that the the Tlc plan, and a few that bit. The candidates that I've interviewed have said something to this effect
Andy Miller III: that it's almost like that we've fallen into this model, and we kind of like it so that it might even eliminate some of those challenges
Andy Miller III: that would exist with having a local bishop
Andy Miller III: who is over one particular area that this maybe enables more connection. What do you? What do you think of that?
Jay Therrell: Yeah, I would respectfully disagree with all that. I I don't. I don't any of it. Quite honestly. I
Jay Therrell: so, Florida, we we want an incarnational bishop.
Jay Therrell: Jesus is incarnational, he he was temporal and spiritual. In his leadership he taught
Jay Therrell: the disciples spiritually, and he healed people, exercised demons and fed people temporally. We want a bishop that does that. I I fear that the general superintendent plan is going to create bishops, that they they're so divided. I understand the legislation says spiritual and temporal, but everyone who's talking about the plan says, no, we want the bishops to be the spiritual leaders.
Jay Therrell: 1st of all. I don't know how you separate that
Jay Therrell: I'm a pastor. I've served local churches. I've been a district superintendent. I'm now functioning in a role that's very similar to a bishop that we used to know in the Umc. I don't know how to not lead both spiritually and temporally, I I to me, and that's of what we would call in the law a distinction without a difference. I I don't know how you separate that, to begin with, you know
Jay Therrell: I'm a president pro tem. And I lead both. I I help make appointments temporal, and I put out teaching documents and blogs and all sorts of things like that all the time, because I think that's what I should do.
Jay Therrell: So to me that just feels weird to us. But second of all, what I'm afraid what could happen as an unintended consequence is that we have these 6 to 8 bishops who aren't really in each annual conference, but a handful of days a year, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 days a year, and they become irrelevant to the local church.
Jay Therrell: They might be very relevant to the general church, and that's great.
Jay Therrell: But the people in the pews aren't going to see them. They're not going to interact with them. I'm in a different church in my annual conference every week.
Jay Therrell: every Sunday preaching or participating in worship. I go to churches at my annual conference and help them do vision strategic vision processes to, you know, be very clear about what God's calling their Church to do. I mentor young clergy in our annual conference. I am very hands on doing both. We want an incarnational bishop where the people in the pews actually know who he or she is.
Jay Therrell: and they see that Bishop rolling their sleeves up and riding the circuit of their own annual conference, and helping those churches to carry out the mission of making disciples.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I certainly the mission of making disciples. We want to make sure whatever we can do to facilitate that is a priority. Do. It seems like you could still function. And like, I'm just using you as example because you're a president pro tem. And if you then became a conference superintendent under the Tlc's model, and there's a a bishop that's functioning in a leaning in, let's say, leaning into the teaching side. But still have I mean the multiple times. The legislation does mention both
Andy Miller III: spiritual and temporal. So it's not. It's not separating them. I think there's just like an an emphasis. That's that's what I would suggest is in the legislation. But you'd still be able to do all that. You you just wouldn't have the title Bishop or or the President pro Thames wouldn't have the title. Bishop.
Jay Therrell: I could care less about titles that does absolutely nothing for me. You can call me
Jay Therrell: whatever you want to call me could care less. Yeah, it's not about that for me in the slightest.
Jay Therrell: Why have 2 layers of bureaucracy
Jay Therrell: which is more expensive? A bigger institutional footprint when we only need one. And, by the way, the historical, the historical position of the Episcopacy is to have one is to have a residential Bishop Ryan Baker in Firebrand Magazine a couple of weeks ago, wrote an excellent piece about the Episcopacy. Bishops, the early bishops, and really, for the long history of the Orthodox Church
Jay Therrell: have always been residential for that reason that I mean, if we go to a general superintendent Mall, that's a very different understanding of the Episcopacy
Jay Therrell: than the Church really has ever known Protestant, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jay Therrell: A friend of mine in Europe, made the comment, and I I know some of my friends promoting the general plan, might not like this. But I I think it's apt.
Jay Therrell: So what their plan basically does is create bishops that we call conference superintendents
Jay Therrell: and archbishops that we call bishops.
Jay Therrell: We just to. We don't see why you need the 2 layers. Flatten that and get it decentralized.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I suppose I I just back to Ryan, my friend, our friend, like it's just a difference in what happened in American Methodism. And and so I I think that's where you know. And if you, if you're friends with Ryan on
Andy Miller III: social media, you know he really likes of British things, and I I in general, like what happened with Francis Asbury in the way. Now, of course, he would have been somebody who would have been probably more hands on than maybe this model would have suggested.
Jay Therrell: I was about to say, but.
Andy Miller III: It would be more.
Jay Therrell: Exciting one of the most hands on. Roll up your sleeves, bishops we've ever had, and Francis Asbury, and let's be honest. So was John Wesley. John Wesley certainly was a spiritual leader, but John Wesley was a temporal leader as well. He was making all the decisions, and you didn't cross with Wesley. He didn't ever take the title Bishop, but he was. I mean, if we're being really honest.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, the the current plan
Andy Miller III: the Tlc, then, also. And just it's so funny to even talk about some of this, because it. This all might change in committee. But, the current plan has the Bishop
Andy Miller III: as having a role in appointing the conference superintendent. So it seems like that's a significant temporal power.
Jay Therrell: It is, but it's about the only one
Jay Therrell: it really is. And
Jay Therrell: again taking Ryan's article, and if actually, if you read the one that came out this week on apostolic succession. I mean, you know, historically, the
Jay Therrell: if you want to call them dioceses. But the cities where the bishops
Jay Therrell: led. It was the people of that diocese who picked their bishop. You know that they were the ones who picked that person. So again, it's not.
Jay Therrell: It's not inconsistent with the long haul history of the Greater Sea Church.
Andy Miller III: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't say, Yeah, I'm not making that argument.
Jay Therrell: We'd be the ones that are aberrant.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, you see the things that.
Jay Therrell: And I don't have a problem with being yeah, a point away. I mean, that's just who we are as Methodist. But I,
Jay Therrell: you know. But I it's about the only temporal thing that you know. The Tlc plan gives to the bishops.
Andy Miller III: You you've mentioned met a few times already, like well, in Florida we we're like this, and I do imagine you do have a good authority, not just based on your position, but your knowledge of the Florida Conference that you speak. You know you're you're speaking on behalf of them of what they understand
Andy Miller III: when you bring up the diocese type of perspective, I do wonder occasionally about
Andy Miller III: again, knowing that the jurisdictions in United Methodist Church were very different, and that they are based upon what was happening in those areas. So the the Western jurisdiction was incredibly liberal. And this is where we had all these challenges.
Andy Miller III: Is there a danger that could happen with the the Florida plan, too, that it could end up looking like with a regionalism that's not as connected.
Jay Therrell: I don't know how it could. I mean you. You're electing people at the General Conference. You're not electing in regional bodies like with that's I mean, that's the key distinction between what happened in the United Methodist Church and what we're proposing in the Global Methodist Church. You elected bishops in jurisdictions. We don't want that. We? We want people potential bishops. Which is why you saw my face in your original description that it's potential bishops elected to the pool.
Jay Therrell: You're not okay. You're not a bishop. When you're elected to the pool, you continue in your current appointment until an annual conference or a group of annual conferences. Should they choose to share a bishop and have a general superintendent? Our plan allows for both. That's what makes it a hybrid but you're not a bishop until you're chosen.
Jay Therrell: Bye.
Andy Miller III: Hybrids connected to the to what can. It's not only a regional bishop.
Jay Therrell: No.
Andy Miller III: Have to be.
Jay Therrell: Yeah, yeah. Doesn't have to be. I mean.
Jay Therrell: you could have a conference in the United States, and a conference in Africa want to share a bishop that's possible. Maybe it would be good. I don't know. I haven't thought about it. But, you know we're Florida's partnered with South Africa. I don't. Who knows? Maybe it'd be good if we're doing ministry together. That we share one. I don't know. But, by the way, I'm very confident if our plan were to pass, you will have both.
Jay Therrell: We think that's a good thing, because we think making disciples in
Jay Therrell: South Carolina looks different than making disciples in California, and it looks way different than making disciples in Bulgaria and the Congo and the Philippines. And so we think each annual conference should be able to choose missionally
Jay Therrell: what kind of superintendent, whether it's residential or general, fits best for them. And there will be some. I mean, here's an example, Nigeria. There are 4 annual conferences in Nigeria. They have historically always shared a bishop because they're all in the same country together.
Jay Therrell: Ongo has has multiple, has had traditionally multiple annual conferences.
Jay Therrell: I would imagine those conferences would want to continue to share one. So you're going to have annual conferences sharing a general superintendent, and then you may have some annual conferences that you say? No, we'd rather have just one serving us.
Jay Therrell: we say, why does that need to be mandated top down? Why not let the annual conferences decide what's best for themselves? Missionally.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Andy Miller III: and I, I that's that's the emphasis that you have. It seems very consistently that the annual conferences, then then have this opportunity to choose what's happening in their area. Okay. You also mentioned the financial aspect that that this would be a financial savings and put more money in the local church. Could you detail like how how you see that happening.
Jay Therrell: Sure. So
Jay Therrell: if we have a general superintendent plan, you're going to have 8 bishops, at least from 2,024 to 2026 being paid for out of the general budget of the church.
Jay Therrell: If you don't have general superintendents, you don't have those bishops being paid for out of the General Church.
Jay Therrell: and that is a lot of money. If if and let's say you have eventually, after 2026, let's say you have 8 to 10 general superintendents. You're talking at a 6 figure not, and not just 100, but probably in the 100 3,000 $50,000 range for Bishop, if it's comparable to what it was in the Umc plus expenses plus an office plus health insurance plus retirement, all the stuff that comes along with it.
Jay Therrell: You're easily talking a 2, 3, 4 million dollar item in the general church budget.
Jay Therrell: So our plan eliminates all that.
Jay Therrell: And then you have the annual conferences, paying for their bishops.
Jay Therrell: They're already paying for conference superintendents or presidents pro tem. Some have full time, some do not have full time.
Jay Therrell: and under our plan. They're free to choose that still. So those conferences that want to have a a full-time residential bishop
Jay Therrell: will adjust their budgets accordingly. Many of ours do already. So that's not an unusual thing. They would not need to increase their connectional funding conferences that want to share. One could share one and have a general superintendent, and then our under our plan, they would just put a a plan, together with the Episcopacy Committee from the other 2, 3, 4 conferences that says how they'll share those divide those costs out between the annual conference.
Jay Therrell: you know I I have had people who promote the Tlc plan, say, but you know the 1% connectional funding rate produces more than enough money to pay for that, and my response is then return it to the local church.
Jay Therrell: Reduce the connectional. If we don't. If we don't need an extra 4 million to pay for all these bishops.
Jay Therrell: send it back to the local churches. That is where ministry takes place. That is where disciples are made. Give that money back.
Jay Therrell: Let's look at whether we can reduce
Jay Therrell: general connect funding.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Jay Therrell: And that. That's what. Yeah, that's what we would argue.
Andy Miller III: I guess I'm I'm trying to go go. I realized that when I real interview the 9 candidates I was just interviewing them about them. I wasn't really talking to them about these plans, so I probably need to have somebody on who is a part of the committee on the Tlc plan. So I'm gonna try. If I get somebody on that side I'll try to push back to. Just think so. I'm going to push back a little bit on that thinking about the 1%.
Andy Miller III: It seems like one of the pieces that you have as a part of your justification is that this was what everybody expected. Well, it seems like most churches knew that the General Conference level would get 1%
Andy Miller III: it seems like that's a reasonable amount for people to have, and if that then accommodates this episcopacy model, it seems like that would be this, it's not too much. Well, I'm glad here to respond. Yeah.
Jay Therrell: I would. Yeah, I just fundamentally disagree with that. I I think
Jay Therrell: everything should surround the mission
Jay Therrell: the local church makes disciples. And so we keep as much resources as possible with the local church. And if that means we can lower that connectional funding fee which keeps more dollars in the local church treasury. I think that's what you do, that that's not been the understanding. By the way.
Andy Miller III: Okay, right?
Jay Therrell: We've always the current book of doctrines and discipline which, by the way, I was one of the authors of Chapel, Temple, Tom Lambrecht and I were the 3 original authors of the current transitional book of doctrines and discipline.
Andy Miller III: You guys, are the authors of this plan. The Florida plan, as well.
Andy Miller III: Are they a part of that.
Jay Therrell: I. I asked them to come together with me to kind of tweak it and get it ready to be submitted to the General Conference. I want to be fair. Tom is the General Secretary for the General Conference, so he's not endorsed any plan because he needs to remain objective. I totally understand that, so I don't want to.
Jay Therrell: I don't want to put that on him. It's not fair to put that on him, but he certainly helped me get the petition ready. For Florida endorsed it. But the transitional book of doctors and discipline sets ceilings on connectional funding. Yes, it doesn't set it. Yeah. So it was a, it's a ceiling of 1.5%. That's possible for the general church. But the reason it was a ceiling was in hopes that it would be
Jay Therrell: less. You know.
Andy Miller III: Okay, interesting. Right?
Jay Therrell: And we want to keep as much money in the local churches as possible. I am convinced
Jay Therrell: that to keep a movement from becoming an institution
Jay Therrell: that institutions. I don't know how else to say this. I don't mean it pejoratively. I think institutions have to be starved.
Jay Therrell: and you start them with 2 things budgets and term limits.
Jay Therrell: And so you keep the budget as small as you can, because otherwise institutions creep. They get a little bigger this year, and then a little bigger next year, and then a little bigger the next year, and 10 years later they're really big so they you starve them with budgets, and you start them with term limits, so that there is a turnover with different people who don't get entrenched and stuck. I
Jay Therrell: I want us to stay a movement as long as we possibly can. I think it's probably inevitable that at some point we will shift to an institution. But I pray we can keep this movement going in that sense for many years before that finally happens.
Andy Miller III: With the idea of term limits. So what does your plan do with term limits?
Jay Therrell: Are it? They're very similar. There's actually a lot that the 2 plans are very similar on
Jay Therrell: I. There's probably a majority of overlap between the 2 plans. The differences are key, but there's there's probably a majority of the things that they have in common. Ours is a 1 12 year term limit the Tlc. Plans to 6 year. So for a total of 12, we are very open. I actually may even put an amendment forward on our plan. If our committee ends up perfecting our plan to switch ours to a 2, 6 year. Yeah. So I there.
Andy Miller III: Just.
Jay Therrell: They're very yeah, they're very close. And I I think we all agree that that's 1 thing that has to be in place or term limits.
Andy Miller III: One thing that it seems to be like. I I love hearing that about the term limits.
Jay Therrell: Ryan would disagree with that. By the way.
Andy Miller III: Hollywood, Right.
Jay Therrell: Says that at the end of his article, yeah.
Andy Miller III: King.
Jay Therrell: He wants. He wants a he wants a lifetime of escapacin. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: I I'm really interested in the institution movement, conversation, and
Andy Miller III: in in part, because that's what I've that's what I saw happen in my the denomination that discipled me.
Andy Miller III: In that. In that tradition the general, not just general superintendent, but the General was given
Andy Miller III: total authority over all aspects of the movement, and while that was a
Andy Miller III: probably a part of the growth in the early stages, particularly after William Booth's death, and you know same thing could be said with John Wesley. After that point. There's a splintering, a move towards institutional or organizationalism. And but yeah, the the problem with in the Salvage Army's model is that the that those positions retained
Andy Miller III: all of this control and power, and it started to move towards preservation as opposed. And so when the 2 things come up, and since we've used the language temporal, or.
Andy Miller III: you know, administrative probably is a better word. I ministries in there. It's not a non theological word, but temporal and spiritual leadership.
Andy Miller III: It seems like what's happened is that the spiritual leadership gets neglected and the temporal or administrative side is highlighted in light of the fact that you just have to sustain yourself. And so that's I. I get a little bit of shakes, because, I see how that that model has come about. And so that's that's a little bit of my perspective. But I I look I just want to say, Jay, I hope you don't hear me arguing with you. I just I'm hopefully.
Jay Therrell: Give you an opportunity.
Andy Miller III: You respond to some of the things that are there.
Jay Therrell: No, I enjoy it. So let me let me offer a different perspective on that, because I I've heard others say that, too.
Jay Therrell: I've heard a I hear a lot of people talk about the administrative side.
Jay Therrell: I hope this comes across the right way, but they've never been a district superintendent or a bishop.
Jay Therrell: Once you sit in those roles, you begin. I mean, I do. I do. You know, do I do administrative stuff as President pro team, Florida. I do. But we have a Conference administrator who does most of that. She's amazing. Her name's Nako Kellum.
Andy Miller III: We worked with her at Wbs. She does a great job.
Jay Therrell: By the way, Naka was on the Commission, for that created the Tlc plan, and she now supports ours fully. By the way.
Jay Therrell: but most of what I do is spiritual, and I again I go back to I just don't.
Jay Therrell: I think it's a very easy crutch to fall on to try to split the 2 when I think they're intertwined together, you know, when I'm making an appointment, you can argue that's temporal, and
Jay Therrell: some of it is.
Jay Therrell: I would argue to you it's way more spiritual, because that is setting the person that's going to lead that local church. And as so goes the leader. So goes the rest of the organization. And I would actually argue that that may be. The most important thing I do is try to get the right people at the right church. We spend a lot of time doing that. You know. I've heard
Jay Therrell: I've heard some bishops talk about all the administrative functions they had to do in the United Methodist Church.
Jay Therrell: Well, that depended on the Bishop and the Conference, you know. I
Jay Therrell: yes, some had hospital systems in them. And they were on boards for that. Okay, we want, we don't. And we're not going to the global methods. Yeah, there's not gonna be. We don't have any universities, so our colleges, so none of our business, are going to sit on boards of trustees for universities or colleges, or publishing houses, or I mean, so it's just our institutional footprint, thankfully, is already small. And so that drastically reduces all that.
Jay Therrell: To begin with, we only have. Is it. 6, proposed general Commissions, that we're gonna create, that I mean that, too. It just lessens all of that administrative or temporal piece. To begin with, I just I think it gets talked about a lot. And so people assume that there's this massive amount of administration. And I just don't think I think the dirty little secret is.
Jay Therrell: there isn't.
Jay Therrell: and most of it, quite honestly, is spiritual. And I also think we sometimes refer to administrative ministry in a pejorative sense like that's administrative. It's valuable. That's what makes all the trains run on time, and if you don't have that it'll all fall apart. So.
Andy Miller III: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Jay Therrell: It's a valuable ministry unto itself. I so I just I don't fall into that so much. I just again back to the incarnational piece we want both, which is very Wesley and both, and instead of either or.
Andy Miller III: That's helpful. Okay, I'm gonna actually step out outside of the even this legislation. You piqued my interest because thinking about making appointments, and how that's 1 of the most intense things you've done. Talk to me about what that's been like in this new model, where churches have more
Andy Miller III: a say in who comes to serve them? What! What challenges have you dealt with there as a president pro tem.
Jay Therrell: You know, as someone who has made appointments in both the United Methodist Church and the Global Methodist Church.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jay Therrell: It. It was way faster and way easier, making appointments in the United Methodist Church.
Jay Therrell: Our process is way harder.
Jay Therrell: and I think it's much better.
Andy Miller III: Okay. Okay.
Jay Therrell: I think it's far better
Jay Therrell: our process
Jay Therrell: is going to take longer, because it allows the local church to have so much more involvement in the consultation process. And so we tell all of our churches. We would rather get it right than fast.
Jay Therrell: And we really we take seriously when we meet with them, and have them fill out profiles, and hear all the needs that they have.
Jay Therrell: at least in our annual conference. We then do our very best to try to find people that have gifts that match those needs. And then we let the 2 get together, and they have several weeks to get to know each other, you know we we tell them, at least in our conference, talk as much as you can meet in person, meet over Zoom, talk by phone, watch their sermons online. All the stuff.
Jay Therrell: Yeah, so that you can try as best you can. We would. If if this doesn't work, we'll go back to the drawing board.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jay Therrell: And that's true for the pastor as well as the Church. And we've, I would say, with our appointments, we've had an over 90% success rate of the 1st person matching.
Jay Therrell: but which also means we've had about 10% that haven't. And I would say most of the time. It's the church that has said, we don't think that's the right match, but we've had probably 2 pastors who said, I just don't think this is the right place.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Interesting.
Jay Therrell: I'd so much rather know that before we started that.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Jay Therrell: Then just make the appointment, and then find that out. 6 months.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: this is one of the beautiful things about this. Whatever plan happens, what we just outlined is giving local churches an opportunity to speak into who God's called them to be in their community. That's incredibly appealing. Now, Jay, you might, Bill tell I'm a confident person I was. I was a pretty good pastor 15 years of Salvation Army. But one thing I know, and this is the same thing for you and I, Methodist Church. Nobody ever asked me to come.
Andy Miller III: No, no local church in this sense. Now, maybe they did a little bit. Maybe they kind of got with the equivalent of the bishop or the and in that denomination, and it's it's such a beautiful thing for the
Andy Miller III: congregation to have a part in saying, Yes, this is who we want. Yes, we agree with the conference superintendent that this is who we want to lead us. Now, I I think I did a fairly good job in those environments trying to come alongside that. But I just think of what a blessing it will be to know that you're coming together even before you arrive.
Jay Therrell: Oh, absolutely I
Jay Therrell: we want long term pastorates. We believe that creates greater stability for the local church, which hopefully then, creates a better platform from which to go, make disciples and grow.
Jay Therrell: And
Jay Therrell: so I. I don't apologize to our local churches if it takes us 2 or 3 months instead of 2 or 3 weeks to make an appointment to to them, and so far our local churches have been fine with it.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Jay, one of the things with back to Florida. Plan. As you're working through this, it seems like the the those who May. And maybe this wouldn't be an issue at all.
Andy Miller III: that that those who are in president pro tem positions would have an inside track, so to speak, of moving toward being a bishop in 2,026.
Andy Miller III: Is that the case?
Jay Therrell: I think it's possible. I get that. I don't
Jay Therrell: again. I think that's probably an oversimplification. I I know folks who are President, current presidents pro tem. Who are more than ready to be to lay that down.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Jay Therrell: To the local church. When they're done. I also know Presidents pro tem. Who would probably in 2026, retire. They probably would retire now. But they're they're kind enough to, you know, to delay their retirement a couple of years and continue to serve so I
Jay Therrell: would. There be current presidents pro tim, who run for Bishop, and probably get elected into the pool? Yes, I think so. Sometimes folks have said, well, what that may just mean that your conference then just chooses you, and the response is, they may.
Jay Therrell: And I think some conferences will want that.
Jay Therrell: I also think some conferences won't want that.
Jay Therrell: and my response is, then let the conference choose. Some conferences may want the comfort of having a known entity. Some may say, no, we don't want that, and
Jay Therrell: I trust them, you know. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: A few of the other nominees are President pro tems. Would you be interested in becoming a bishop? Do you think that'd be a path for you?
Jay Therrell: You!
Jay Therrell: I have always said that people who end up being Bishop should have to go kicking and screaming. I get very scared by people who aspire to that role. That it really scared me it especially scared me in the United Methodist Church, but it still scares me in the global Methodist church. So would I be open? I guess I'm open. Do I aspire to it? I don't.
Jay Therrell: I love the role that I have right now. And I also think that elders are called to serve local churches. I think that's our highest and most noblest call as an
Jay Therrell: not that you can't serve in the Academy.
Andy Miller III: Thank you.
Jay Therrell: Or.
Andy Miller III: No, I'm with you, I agree.
Jay Therrell: And administrative denominational role is what I'm doing now. But.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jay Therrell: I think the highest and noble calling for an elder is to serve a local church, and you know I'd be honored to serve a local church.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's one of our professors here. Steve Blake Moore says, when I came to be a seminary professor some people acted like I had made the Big Leagues, and he said, No, no, you totally missed the picture, he said. Actually.
Andy Miller III: my, our role in the seminary is more like being a Minor League manager like we're we're they're here to help people get their swing straightened out so they can go to the Big Leagues themselves.
Jay Therrell: I like that. Yeah, I like that. So yeah, I definitely.
Andy Miller III: See that!
Jay Therrell: I've always thought the rock stars of the Church are missionaries.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jay Therrell: People who are willing to go to another country and sacrifice living, you know, in their own neighborhood, with their family and friends, to go share Jesus with other folks. I missionaries have always been to me the rock stars of the Church.
Andy Miller III: You know. I asked the 9 candidates for the Tlc. Plan. A question like that like about that was hope hopeful that if there was ambition there to let it be seen like us. But here's what is helpful to me. I think this is just speaking to movement as a whole, not just to the plans is that I didn't sense that I didn't sense political posturing, and and I don't sense that in my conversation with you at this point, either, or even with the way that we're thinking of the plans.
Jay Therrell: No, I I
Jay Therrell: I I said to you earlier, I I know all of the folks running. I know some better than others, but from my role as president of the Wca. I just interacted with lots of people all around the world.
Jay Therrell: The people, if we end up choosing a general superintendent plan, and we elect bishops and go temp to your bishops in Costa Rica. The people that are running are all wonderful people, who would be great gifts to the church
Jay Therrell: it. It. It actually would be hard to choose amongst those folks.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Jay Therrell: Yeah, I mean, they're they're all.
Andy Miller III: Certainly.
Jay Therrell: They're all outstanding choices, and, for that matter, so are the the what is it? The 6 or 8 extra folks who've now.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jay Therrell: I mean. I I know almost all of them again some very, very well.
Jay Therrell: We don't have a if we go that route we don't. We don't have a bad person to choose from.
Andy Miller III: Right? Right?
Andy Miller III: Well, I sort of appreciate your time, Jay. I wanted to give give you a chance to just have a couple more minutes. If there's anything else you wanted to say about this plan.
Jay Therrell: I just want to encourage
Jay Therrell: delegates to to really consider
Jay Therrell: ensuring what we do helps our our denomination, our fledgling. 2 year old toddler denomination
Jay Therrell: to remain a movement for as long as it can.
Jay Therrell: We will become crusty at some point down the road. I hope it's decades down the road, and I hope we can stay as small and nimble and flat and bottom up, oriented as possible, because I think that's what will help
Jay Therrell: the
Jay Therrell: the kingdom grow with new Wesleyan Christians.
Andy Miller III: And I, I think that is clear in what you're presenting that that sure desire, I think, I hope, I hope that the those same ideas. And I think that
Andy Miller III: it's just how do we get there? And I think that that's what the day debate's going to be here at the end of this month, but I appreciate you taking time with me.
Jay Therrell: Thanks for having me.
Andy Miller III: We have a lot. We have a, you know, dozens of students who are at Wbs from the Florida Conference, and I love them. I'm thankful for it. Thankful for the way that we're able to partner with your conference and all you know. Gmc. Conferences all over the world. This is an exciting time in life of the Church, and we appreciate your leadership at multiple levels and at multiple stages. Jay. So I appreciate you loving the church this much that you're able to come on my podcast and write this legislation.
Jay Therrell: It. It has been a humbling privilege. And so I I you're very kind. I appreciate it. Thank you.