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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
James Browning: Hello, and
welcome to F G squared.
Steve Gladen the global pastor of small
groups from Saddleback church polls
from his over 25 years of experience.
To encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen and learn together.
Derek Olson: Welcome to SG squared.
Steve Gladen on small groups, Derek
here with the main man, Steve Gladen.
Steve, how are you doing, my friend?
Welcome to Steve Gladen on small
groups, SG squared, we call it.
I'm Derek along with your other
host, the man, Steve Gladen.
Steve.
How are you, my friend?
Steve Gladen: Doing good.
Good.
Good.
Derek, good to have
you back from vacation.
And, uh, you were slumming
over in the Hawaiian Island.
So it's, uh, it's, it's good to have
my partner in crime on SG squared back.
We had to do a little intro solo without
Derek on the last episode, uh, because he
was just sunning some part of his body.
Derek Olson: I was, I was swimming
with turtles in the sea in Maui.
It was incredible, little stormy, but,
uh, you know, I was just trying to
get a little bit of the beach life.
Like you get to experience every
day there in sunny SoCal, but
you were down there at the lobby.
Tell us about that.
Steve Gladen: yeah, so the small group
network puts on the, uh, lobby every
year, uh, right around that February zone.
I will, I will say the, the weather
was not the most cooperative, uh,
as it was, uh, rainy for the first
day, but the sun came back out and
into the, uh, uh, high sixties, low
seventies, uh, for the final two days.
But the, the thing that
makes the lobby is.
Not the weather, although the weather
would always be nice to be, you
know, in the mid seventies, like,
you know, it is many times in January
and February, but it's the people.
And, uh, we had some of the
top small group point people,
some of the largest churches.
Uh, in America where they're along with
a, just a whole variety of other ones.
And nothing, uh, warms my heart more
than two great things is when people
walk away saying, I got so many great
ideas from other churches because
not one church has all the ideas.
And so it's a networking event, but
even for, uh, me, I was able to get,
uh, a couple of little nuggets that,
uh, we were able to implement, uh, with
our staff, uh, our whole church staff.
Cause I was talking to another church that
was doing, going through some somewhere.
Things like us and able to implement that.
And again, if it wouldn't have been
at the lobby, I wouldn't have met this
person when they had this conversation.
So it was probably 1 of the best.
And for me, for those that are listening
that we're at the lobby the last
couple of years, I missed last year
because it's just a family emergency.
So, it was great to be back with all the
peeps and have fun and those that listen
to the February or the March episode.
SG squared got to hear the panel
discussion that, um, Dave ends,
Rick Houghton and I did on many
things about small group life.
So it was, it was a fun time.
I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it.
So, uh, those of you that are
interested in that, you can
go up on smart group network.
com look at our events and the lobby
will be showing up there very soon.
Derek Olson: Yeah.
I enjoyed seeing the photos of you
and so many, uh, friends there and,
um, Yeah, we know that people don't
really go there because of the
weather and because it's in SoCal.
They just go because it is
the premier small group event.
In the land, right?
Steve Gladen: It's fun.
It is fun, baby.
If you like people, you don't like
people and you don't like networking,
then I would highly recommend not to
come unless you want to just do respite.
I mean, there's, there are some
folks that come and just enjoy the
conference grounds and don't attend
very much, but that's okay too.
We're, we're flexible.
If they just need a reason to
come to SoCal, uh, get escape
the snow and the bad weather and,
uh, enjoy our version of winter.
Hey, bring it on.
We'll take you.
Derek Olson: That's right.
Well, people have been asking recently,
Steve, um, why, uh, are small groups
so, um, healthy and vibrant and, uh,
amazing and large and all these things
at Saddleback church, what is the small,
uh, Saddleback small group difference?
When we compare, uh, you know,
even churches of like size that
don't seem to have small group
ministries like Saddleback.
So, um, We're going to jump into, I think
about seven key differences that make up
the Saddleback small group difference.
And, um, why don't you kind of
set up, set this up for us where
we're going to go with this.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
I mean, uh, there, there's many
commonalities across, uh, all small
group ministries around the world.
I mean, I've been in 40 different
countries doing conferences, uh, in
my career and it's, it's been, it's
been fun to be there, but there are a
lot of commonalities that are there.
And, uh, when Derek and I were
talking about the show and I
thought, Hey, you know what?
We have some unique things that
in our Saddleback small groups
that that are distinctives, and it
doesn't mean the right, but they
are distinctives that have a lot of
churches have helped a lot of churches,
and it's, it's helped in that way.
So we thought we'd put together.
we had six and then we thought
that can't end on man's number.
So let's, let's get God's number in there.
So actually there was a
seventh one, so it was good.
It fit very nicely.
But we just want to roll through those and
Derek's going to kind of tee him up and
add color commentary where he feels like.
But I think these seven distinct is
what will help you in your small group
ministry to, to, uh, know what you
might want to adopt, what you might
not want to adopt and how you can
serve your church a little bit better.
Derek Olson: So one thing that
Saddleback is often equated with is
the phrase purpose driven throwback
to Pastor Rick Warren's books.
And, um, but that also gets linked with
small groups, purpose driven small groups.
So talk to us about purpose driven small
groups, not special interest groups.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
And this is a, a super common thing
because in In the church world, God
created the church in it with a system
and he created it so that you would go to
temple courts, house to house, and then
serving God with where you're gifted.
And what is interesting outside of temple
courts, which is your weekend services,
there's two groupings of people that
will always exist inside your church.
Some of them are special interest,
which I'll define in just a second, but
other ones are working on discipleship.
And for us, those are, uh, what we
call purpose driven small groups.
Those small groups.
Are trying to balance the five
verbs in the great commission in
the great commandment Uh, as you
probably know that Jesus prayed
those same five verbs in John 17.
Uh, he, the best summarized in the
great commission, great commandment.
And then, uh, obviously in acts two,
when the church was birthed, the front
half temple courts, 3000 gets saved and
baptized, but then immediately talks
about the, the house to house movement.
Uh, in Acts 2, uh, 42 through 47,
and you see that that replicated
the, not only through the rest of
the New Testament, but through the
first 300 years of church history
till, uh, Christianity was legalized.
And so it's important for church to
know, because people always ask me.
Am I in a small group?
And it's important for you to
understand that language does matter.
And so when we call a small group
at Saddleback that we're talking
about those groups that are
trying to work on discipleship.
filling a spiritual void that people
have in their, in their spiritual
lifestyle and helping them, you know,
work through fellowship, discipleship,
serving evangelism and worship and how
that plays out in their small group
and also in their own personal life.
But then you have special interest
groups and special interest groups are
tend to be just groupings of people who
overemphasize One of the verbs that's in
the great commission, great commandment.
So, uh, people who are overemphasized
fellowships, those tend to be a lot
of sports and recreation groups.
People always say, Hey, I want to gather
with people who like to do road bike
biking, or who like to do pickleball or
who like to scrapbook or things like that.
They're the gifting that they're
coming around is fellowship.
But they're not really
working on discipleship.
They're building a lot of community there.
They're having fun times
and stuff like that.
And nothing wrong with those types
of groups, because those tend
to be great assimilation groups.
Much like if you overemphasize
discipleship and your church spends a
lot in classes and, and learning about
doctrine or New Testament or Old Testament
survey, which are all great things to do.
But these tend to be cluster people who
enjoy the cognitive side of discipleship.
And again, those groups and groupings
of people aren't bad that enjoy that,
but they tend not to have the full
roundedness of what discipleship is about,
uh, groups that overemphasize serving.
Can we kind of group them
into care and to task?
So we have groupings of people that
take care of our, our landscape.
We have groupings of people
that clean, clean the church.
We have groupings of people that
park the cars that usher that greed.
Those are more task based things.
Uh, we have people that
count the offering too.
I mean, all the things that
need to happen in the church.
Those are groupings of people.
that it's good for them to
be around that, that gifting.
Uh, but there's also care and that's
where we put support groups and
recovery groups and, uh, some of our
counseling groups that are there.
And it's, again, it's overemphasizing that
serving aspect of the saying, I'm going
to take my spiritual giftedness missions.
You tend to have local and
global, uh, groupings of people
that love to go out on trips.
Nothing wrong with that.
Again, it's, it's activation
and stuff like that.
And then in worship, uh, you have
the same type of choir groups,
ensemble groups, you know, you can
do all kinds of different things.
I was in a very traditional church
when I first started out in ministry
and they had a, a bell choir.
And if you don't know what that is,
it's very interesting, but I'm not
going to take time to explain it.
Um, but the point is here is that.
We're going to focus, we focus on purpose
driven groups, not special interests.
So other parts of the church handle
all the special interest groups.
I know there's lots of churches out
there that say, if you're in any
grouping of people, that's great.
Uh, at Saddleback, we'd say that the
special interest groups, they, when
you're serving in your, your giftedness.
Or when you're a part of a grouping
of people in your giftedness, you, a
natural by product you get with doing
that responsibility is you feel value.
And when you feel value, you love to
participate in that in the same way.
In, uh, purpose driven groups,
uh, or what we just call our
small groups at Saddleback.
They, they fill a different thing.
They, they feel not only the relational
side of what it's about, although you have
relationships in both groupings of people,
but it's more of a well roundedness
of how you're filling that spiritual
void of becoming more like a follower
of Jesus and working on those pieces.
So one of our biggest
distinctives is we'll acknowledge
both groupings of people.
But we'll also know that those two
groupings of people fulfilled different
felt needs that are in the body of Christ.
Derek Olson: One time at a church I was
at, um, where I was the groups guy, we
had, we launched interest groups for a
summer and one of ours was a geocaching,
uh, small group where people would go
around and hunt for, you know, These
geocache electronic things on their apps.
Yeah.
I don't know how much prayer happened in
that group, but, uh, they had a good time.
Steve Gladen: but it is a
great assimilation piece.
So I would never downsize the importance
of those groupings of people, but I have
been around the block long enough to
know that, uh, you're fooling yourself.
If you think discipleship is going
to happen, they're high connectivity.
And, and high buy into the church.
But if you're not careful, you, if you
don't have a discipleship strategy,
that this could be a weakness.
Derek Olson: Very true.
Another key ingredient of Salabak small
groups is the whole relational aspect
verse multiplying or what people call
a rapid cell multiplication, which
was a huge You know, thing several
years ago, probably still is today.
But talk to us about relational
verse, uh, not multiplying.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
I mean, really, when you, when you
come down to this part is you're
asking the question of how do you
do evangelism in small groups?
And for some churches, the principle
is evangelism, but the methodology
behind that is what Derek was referring
to as rapid cell multiplication.
That means I start with one group and in
nine months or, 12 months or 18 months
we'll split into two and then two will
become four and the four become eight
and eight become 16, then 32 and stuff
like that, which I found in America works
great on paper, but not in practicality.
And, uh, I was raised Roman Catholic.
I was raised in a military home and I,
And I, I can bring a lot of guilt and a
lot of power, uh, but groups would, you
know, always say when I was trying to get
them to multiply for the cause of Jesus,
you know, because it's all about Jesus.
Um, they would always give
me one or two answers.
It would be yes, pastor,
that's what we'll do.
And they would never do it.
Or they would say, no,
we're not going to do it.
And this go in their merry way.
And what was interesting is that, uh,
at Saddleback, when I came on staff at
Saddleback, I thought, Oh, multiplication
will definitely work here because I
know they're in parts of the globe.
It will work.
Uh, you have to ask yourself the question.
If it doesn't work, then then you might
want to work on a different strategy,
which I'll explain in just a second.
But, you know, when I first came on a
Saddleback, I thought, Hey, I'm at Mecca.
I know it's going to work now.
And what I found is it just didn't work.
And so we did a focus group with a number
of different groups and just had somebody
else come in and ask the questions.
And basically it was, why, why
don't you want to multiply?
Why, why is it?
And when you get the pastors
out of the room, you finally,
you get some truth in there.
And what the focus groups came
back with a while back ago was
that it wasn't this exact phrase,
but it was this meaning behind it.
But they would say this group.
is thicker than my blood, uh, relatives.
This group means more
to me than my family.
Uh, and what happened was is that
when you look in our society, I'm
predominantly talking about a North
American society where, uh, divorce
has wrecked the family unit where,
uh, You know, uh, single parent,
uh, or I should say blended families
are rampant, uh, across their stats.
And, uh, my book planning small groups
with purpose, I put all kinds of
stats in here about this, but, you
know, and then you have, You have
five different things that kind of,
they're kind of eroding the family and
obviously divorce and blended families.
Those are, those are big ones.
But if you live in a military community
and you're moved around all the time,
that shatters the family system.
If you, um, if you know, your kids
go into college out of state, Which
both my kids did and you run the risk
that they're going to meet somebody
and then they're going to marry him.
And then they'll moving away
from your family unit, which
is happening to our family.
Um, because my daughter is in her
husband to be, are going to be launched
and locked and loaded in Nashville.
But they're, um, you know,
they're moving away and it's a
fracturing of the family unit.
And then the same thing, um, you
know, can happen in the corporate
America because people will move
around and what can happen in that.
Is that what your church's
experience is, is a fragmentation.
Of what the family unit
was designed for by God.
And so when people get into small
groups and they find this, what
biblical community is all about,
they don't want to do that.
Now here's the problem.
The principle we said was evangelism.
If rapid cell multiplication doesn't
work, then what's your strategy?
And one of our key distinctives is
we'll tell a group, you can stay
together as long as you like, but
there's two things that we put in play.
One is we put personal evangelism super
high, what we call one life, and that
every person needs to know who's the
one life, the one person that lives
close to you around Saddleback church
that doesn't know Jesus, that you're
actively, jumping into and that one life
is a critical piece that your group holds
each other accountable to say, you know,
how are we doing in personal evangelism?
The other thing that's true about
our strategy is that, you know,
because people start relationally,
it's hard to get out of a group
sometime and, uh, or it's awkward.
And so that's why we do a
churchwide campaign one time a year.
And we'll just say, Hey, if God's brought
two new friends to you, You know, step
out of your group, but you can always
come back to it and they never do.
But the, the, the big point behind this
is, is that we're always focused on
taking the relationships deeper so that
true discipleship can happen, but not
sacrificing the ability to do evangelism.
Derek Olson: Yeah.
I remember the first time I heard
you talk about why you don't push
the rapid sun multiplication.
It was like a revelation.
I mean, We live in such a fractured
society, especially you talked about
divorce and the breakdown of the family.
You finally get people in a small
group where they've bonded and they're
doing life together and they're finding
a family because theirs is broken.
And then you're saying, Oh, now I want
you to break up and start all over.
And, uh, that's the worst possible, I
mean, thing that some people could hear.
Is why, why are you forcing me to leave?
So, love the relational piece there.
Verse
Steve Gladen: If I, if I can
even jump in too, is that.
Some of the toughest things in
discipleship, I mean, because when
discipleship is speaking truth into
people's lives and the only way you
can speak truth is you've got to spend,
you've got to be a trusted source.
And the only way you're a trusted
source is if you spend time with them.
So the longer your group can spend
together, the more trusted they
become to each other so that you
can speak the hard things of life.
into into them and which is
what discipleship is about.
It's it's what's when truth will
get is going to intersect Your
scope of life and how you want
to behave and work that through.
And we've seen that happen in our group
many times where people change behavior
because we're able to speak truth into
their lives and they, they trust us.
But that can't happen if your group
is getting shuffled all the time.
Derek Olson: well said.
Let's talk about growth by campaigns
verse disrupting community.
Uh, one thing Saddleback's really known
for is your campaigns, um, which, uh,
I'll let you tell people what that is.
But, uh, often in small group
world, you hear the word campaign.
You, you think about Saddleback.
So talk to us about these
growth by campaigns.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
And I kind of referred to it in the
last statement right there when we were
talking about multiplication and how do
you do that in small group ministries?
Uh, and how we'll focus a
little bit more on personal
evangelism in the relationships.
One of the things.
that, that it's kind of like a cousin
to it is of that last distinctive
is our church wide campaigns.
And what we have found is, uh, that
an event one times a year that pushes
your church towards total alignment
and by total alignment, I'm talking
about, uh, children's students and
adults all focusing on one major theme.
And, uh, in my book, small groups
with purpose, chapter 17, I talk
about 12 ingredients of a campaign.
Now I say that on blue in the face
because I talked to a lot of churches
about doing a churchwide campaign and
someone will call me up and say, man,
it was the most life changing thing
that happened inside of our, uh, church.
And inside of our church with small
groups, uh, and some will say,
Hey, you know, Steve, it sucked.
And when I do the diagnostics
on it, I find out they
didn't do all 12 ingredients.
So I, you know, in my books, I, I
talked to you about, you know, how
do you build a churchwide campaign?
Uh, and you need those 12 ingredients.
It's kind of like if you buy
a cake mix and you go, I don't
feel like putting eggs in.
Or I don't have baking soda.
I'll use baking powder.
Uh, and the cake doesn't come out.
Can't blame Betty Crocker.
Uh, and you can't blame me, uh, on this.
So I encourage you to learn more about it.
But the premise is this, is that you
want to bring intense focus and alignment
in your church for a 40 day window so
that you can, uh, bring your children,
students, and adults all online about a
relevant topic inside of your community
so that you can make a huge impact.
And when you do, when you slow down the
calendar and when you get the children,
students and adults all doing the
same thing, and when you, uh, have a
curriculum based thing and you use, you
have people, you know, grab a couple
of friends that are impacting them
or that they, they run with so that
you can do this churchwide campaign.
What it does is it brings such intense
focus inside of your church that, uh,
everybody's on the same page and you
go through the five learning styles of
where people engage in, in each one of
the, in each aspect of the campaign.
So some people learn
through the mouth gate.
And that those are the people that
enjoy, uh, the weekend sermon.
So a weekend sermon is a key
component of a churchwide campaign.
Some people learn through the eye
gate, which, um, is being able to
do, I'm sorry, the ear gate is with
listening to the weekend messages.
The mouth gate is discussing in
small groups, which is another
component of the churchwide campaign.
The eye gate is reading a daily
devotion, uh, which is helping people
learn through that, that medium.
Some people are tactile and
they like to do a project.
So we have a project in each one of the
churchwide campaigns and some people just
love to learn through, uh, stimulating
their mind through scripture memory.
And so we have a scripture
memorization piece now, not.
Everyone loves to learn through each
one of those five modes of learning.
However, that it does touch
everybody in your congregation.
And what you're doing is you're,
you're designing a centralized theme.
You're using the components of the
weekend message, small groups in
daily interaction, along with these
other five learning modes to be able
to take your church into, through
a high growth moment of learning
about things through a small group.
Now, what makes this powerful for
small groups is all the components.
that are happening in the
churchwide campaign go through
your small group ministry.
So the only way people can be a part
of the next 40 days of your church
is through a churchwide campaign.
And when you have a churchwide
campaign that you're, you're working
on, what, what happens is, is
that you're setting in a rhythm.
for, for, for people to know this
is when we're launching groups.
This is when we're, we're, we're
capturing everybody to take them to that
next phase of where we want them to go.
And in that design, which we're going
to talk about a little bit later on
is in leadership potential on the
next point, uh, is that the churchwide
campaign with a undergirding of how
we do multiplication, And how we do
leadership development all works together
to help your church have a focal point.
It's like creating the
Superbowl every year.
The 51 weeks prior to the launch of
the campaign are all talking about
the importance of being in community.
The church wide campaign is the
instrument that makes people wake
up and go, Hey, if I'm not in
this, then I'm going to miss out.
And so it'll help them get into
a small group in our next point.
We'll talk to you about how to make it
easy to get them into a small group.
Derek Olson: Yeah, in each church that
I was doing leading groups in when we
did a campaign, it was always the most
energetic time of momentum with groups.
In fact, in one church, the momentum
was so great and awesome that I
thought I had the brilliant idea.
We won't just do this once a year,
we'll do it every semester for groups.
And, um, I would not recommend that,
um, because then we started to see
the momentum go down because it's
doing a good thing too many times.
Once a year is key, right?
Steve.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
Now I'm glad you brought up that point.
I also glad you brought up the
point is that in a campaign, you'll
start at one level with your groups.
You'll jump way high in buy in and
then you'll down and then you'll
settle into who's going to continue on.
And which is our, the day 41
strategy, which is also talked
about in the churchwide campaign.
So, uh, the first time we did a
churchwide campaign, we had 826 groups.
The campaign took us up
to about 22, 2400 groups.
We settled in at 1400.
You could look like we gained
700 groups or that we'd lost.
I can't do the math from 22 to 1400.
Uh, but, um, the point is, is that
you can focus on what your gain
is or what, what your, uh, losses.
And we always choose to focus on the
game because when you do a campaign
every year, the people who didn't
decide to continue on with their group.
The beautiful thing is, is that if you
do the campaign the next time, they're
more likely to jump in because you
let them jump out after the campaign.
Lots in the 12 points.
I could do a whole show on that, but I
encourage you to go back and read, um,
chapter 17 and small groups with purpose.
Or if you're an all access member
in the small group network, uh, you
can watch the course for free on
how to do a churchwide campaign.
And so we have all kinds of resources.
Derek Olson: Next, let's talk about
leadership potential verse, uh, not having
proven leaders and, or, or proven leaders.
And talk to us about this host strategy.
Which, uh, is an acronym, which is to me
is one of the geniuses of the Saddleback
small group strategies, this host acronym.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
So, uh, what Derek is referring to
is when I first came on staff at
Saddleback, um, you know, people
who wanted to lead a small group
had to fill out an application.
They had to go through
an interview through us.
Then they had to go to
our leader training.
And then once they completed all
of that, then what could happen
was is then, uh, we would say they
could be a small group leader and we
would have people that would sign up
saying they wanted to be in a group.
And then we became the biggest e
harmony matchmaking system of a
bunch of leaders over here and a
bunch of people who wanted to be in
groups and we would match make them.
And I had, uh, I think at the
time I had three full time people.
All they did throughout every week
was match make people to get them into
groups through our high growth times.
And what, what we learned when
we did our first churchwide
campaign is that words matter.
That's one of the ingredients
that you'll hear about.
Because when I first came on
staff, we called a small group
leader, a, uh, divisional leader,
uh, actually a divisional.
I think it was a divisional pastor.
Now I'm thinking about it.
And, uh, what they, and you know,
and it just scared people away.
They didn't know what that meant.
They didn't know what the term meant.
They just going on.
I don't want to be that.
Uh, then we went through a time
where we said we called them
shepherd leaders and nobody in Orange
County knew what a shepherd was.
Uh, then we call them small group leaders
and nobody wanted to be the leader.
But what Derek was referring to is we
said, told people, if you can just,
Host a group and it does stand for
an acrostic and what it does is it's
the very lowest entry level of our
leadership and it is the H stands
for do you have a heart for people?
Do you just, do you like people?
If you don't like people,
don't lead a group.
Uh, the O is can you open up a place?
And it doesn't have to be your place.
It can be a coffee shop.
It can be at your work.
It can be in the park.
It can be anywhere.
Um, I always joke and not joke.
I mean, it's a reality is that we
have a group that meets, uh, on
Alaska airlines at 35, 000 feet.
They do it, uh, On their long hauls.
We have a couple of groups
that meet on yachts.
We have a couple of groups
that meet on trains.
And so, you know, it doesn't
you don't care where they meet.
We have some groups that meet on
campus and the meet off campus.
You don't care where they
meet, but open up a place.
The S is this be able to
serve a snack because.
Food makes the groups go round.
And then the T is, can you turn on
the video, whether you're streaming
it or however you're accessing, it
brings the master teacher into brand
new groups so that you can know that
theologically they're, they're on track.
Now, the great thing about this is,
is that our leadership potential
is we take it off of what Jesus did
with the disciples in Matthew four.
The only requirement for a leader was
follow me, and that's a pretty low
bar for being a disciple of Jesus.
But three years later, it was die for me.
And if you're, uh, if you understand that
the Bible is written on a family system,
and I could talk to you forever about
that too, is that you understand that you,
the way you're, the way you raise your
kids in a family is much similar to the
way you raise leaders in your church and
you don't front load all the education.
Uh, I didn't sit my daughter or my
son down when they were five and
tell them everything they were going
to experience in the next 18 years.
I gave it to him in bite sized
increments as God opened up doors
and learning opportunities for them.
And so when we're talking about leadership
potential, the highest qualification of a
leader, and this might be a good exercise
for you to do if you're listening, or
if you're watching, uh, this video is
to ask yourself the question, what's the
number one qualification for somebody
to lead a group in, uh, in your church?
And for some of you, you may come up
with faithfulness or teachability or
follower of Christ or a number of great
qualities, uh, in the fruit of the
spirit or in leadership development.
All those are wonderful.
But what we would say and ask you to
change your momentum on is the, the
number one qualification for leadership
is, do you have followers and the
modern term for followers is friends.
And what we found is that we can
magnify leadership development.
If we give them relevant curriculum that,
uh, can help them attract their friends.
So for example, uh, if we have a young
couple with young kids, we have a starter
curriculum called how to raise your kids
without raising your blood pressure.
And that's a great, it's a very
relevant curriculum to help them be
able to say, I'll gather my friends.
to be able to do that.
Uh, we have one for teenagers called
how to raise your kids, how to raise
a G rated kids in an X rated world.
Uh, we, we have one on singleness, you
know, the, and talks to me about, you
know, the, the power of being single.
And the great thing about relevant
curriculums is that what it does is it,
it unleashes them to grab their friends.
Now I referred back to it real quick,
that that's the highest thing we look
for because we have found people who
may not even be followers of Christ,
but they're willing to use our video
curriculum to gather their friends.
Then that is a way for us to get them
on our leadership development pathway.
Do they need Jesus or do they need
training or do they need both?
And cause what you're trying
to do is identify leaders,
the people with influence.
And there's a lot of powerful things
that can happen with that because one of
them is, is I've had a bunch of people
saying they're a leader, but then it's
my responsibility to fill the group.
And that's a problem.
Uh, and you create a governmental system
when you're always filling groups.
I'm not saying you can't fill groups,
but if that's your primary way of getting
people into groups, I think that's
a dangerous zone for you to be in.
What you want to do is release it to the
power of the people to grab their friends.
And now I'll have pastors get all
freaked out about that because the
moment I say someone who's a, not
a believer who's gathering their
friends, To watch our video curriculum,
they get freaked out about it.
And I always come back to say the great
thing about non believers grabbing
their, their people to watch, you
know, relevant curriculum is that their
friends are probably not believers.
And that could be evangelism
happening in your church.
But the other thing, usually what I
tell a lead pastor is if I said that,
uh, could two or three non believers
sit in the back row of your church on
a Sunday and listen to your message.
And every pastor goes,
Oh my gosh, you bet.
And then if I say, would it
be okay if they went out to
lunch and talked about it?
And they would say, that'd be great.
Well, we're describing in our
host strategy and going not with
proven leaders, but potentials
much like the disciples, but
pouring into them, then what I'm
describing is the exact same thing.
And so one of our, our our
strategic things in our small group
ministry is we do lower the bar.
But we
have
guardrails in place in our leadership
development strategy that help
people not take their group for
wheeling too much and not going
off roading, but staying on track.
So there's lots of pieces with that,
but it is a distinctive that I will
tell you, I lived on both sides.
We interviewed everybody
and stuff like that.
And you know, the thing
that was interesting.
Derek, I don't even know if you remember
this from when you were on staff at
Saddleback, but a lot of times in our
church discipline, what is always common
with people is that in church discipline,
they, in our small group ministry, they
tended to be followers of Jesus and
they tend to be members of the church.
And just because you're a
follower of Christ doesn't stop
you from being stupid in life.
And so, uh, but again, if you have
the things in place in your small
group ministry, this strategy
will be eye opening for you.
Derek Olson: That could be a great
tweet, being a follower of Christ doesn't
keep you from being stupid in life.
Steve Clayton.
Oh, I was a young youth pastor, I
remember being part of a church where
they were trying to launch small
groups, you know, Kind of in a campaign
style, but the pastor, I guess, to put
it nicely was very into the details.
And I remember he had this huge map
of our city on the wall, and he had
graphed off where everybody's lived
and was placing them in the groups.
He wanted them in based on
their address, you know, so no
group got too big or too small.
And in short, it was so forced.
And because, you know, People
weren't naturally coming together.
It was just, everything was so controlled.
So let's talk about ratios, not size
and how, uh, one of your ingredients
is you do the opposite of that.
Steve Gladen: yeah, because, uh,
one of the things people always
ask is how big can my group get?
And we will say from three to 33 or, you
know, 66, you can grow your group as big
as you like, because one of the things
we'll always die on is not the size of the
group, but the ratios inside the group.
And, uh, let me park this in two,
two different camps right here.
One of them is just on the face on the,
on the front facing, you know, there are
people who, uh, are small group leaders.
That will only gather six or eight or 10.
Um, my small group is that
we have never been over 10.
We've never been under six.
It's just, it's our group has
just always been like that.
Nothing wrong with that.
It's just who we are, but
there's also other group leaders.
They're what we call natural gatherers.
And they could be in the middle of Arizona
desert on the hottest day, 110 degrees.
And they're, they're starting their
small group up around a cactus and
they'll gather 20, 30, 40 people.
It's just, they, they are gatherers.
People just want to be around them.
And at Saddleback, we have a
number of groups that are 30,
40, 50, sometimes 60 in size.
And, um, First off, that tells you that
the people's houses is way too big.
Uh, but, uh, that's a,
that's an envious spot.
But the thing is, is that what I led
with on the other part is we'll die on
the Hill, not of the size of the group,
but of the ratios inside the group.
And so what we're teaching people
is how to subgroup by gender.
And when you, when, if you have a
group of 20 or 25, and you subgroup
by gender into smaller groups in
the house, you'll do two things.
One is you'll deepen people's
discipleship because when you
subgroup by gender, Genders will grow
deeper in who they are in Christ.
Uh, our group has been together
for decades, but there's some
things that the women only want to
talk about and there's things that
the guys only want to talk about.
And so that's super important
for you to understand.
The other piece with that too, is that,
Not only do you deepen the, the genders
through discipleship, but also you raise
potential leaders because every little
subgroup needs to be run by somebody.
And I can remember going to some
groups, uh, you know, into, uh, some
of our groups when I was more in the
field, uh, in Cota de Casa where, you
know, some monstrous homes there and
they would have, you know, 30, 40, 50
people at their house for small group.
And I would talk to someone who's leading
the small, leading one of the subgroups.
And I'd say, oh, is this your group?
And they'll go, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Uh, this is, you know, um, and
they would say the people's
names, house, it's their group.
And, uh, I'd go, really?
I go, so what do you do in your subgroup?
And they'd walk around how they build
fellowship, how they're working on
discipleship, how they're trying
to empower people to serve in their
giftedness, how they're holding true to
their one life and helping, you know,
people understand that evangelism needs to
be relational and real, and that they'll
worship together periodically, sometimes
outside the home that they're at.
And the funny thing is, is I'm like,
well, but you're not the group leader.
And they go, Oh, no.
And so, you know, people don't want
that title, but they're happy to do it.
And so one of the strategies is just
understanding that if you have a
gatherer, let them gather people,
but just teach them how to raise
leaders inside their grouping.
Don't get lost on trying to split
the group up or make it divide
because your discipleship to happen.
You don't care if it's in a larger group,
large group, small group environment, or
whether, or whatever environment it is.
So don't be the small group police.
Don't jump in on them and tell
them what they need to do, but do
help them learn that the only way
discipleship is going to happen.
is if they're in smaller
groupings of people.
Derek Olson: Well said
smaller groupings of people.
So good.
Now let's talk about strategic care.
Verse not equal care.
What does that mean?
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
So this is, uh, this goes into
the coaching model and these
last two distinctives are purely
about the, the coaching model.
And I just encourage you, Derek and I did
a podcast called re imagining coaching
that could, uh, help you walk through the
details of this and you can look it up,
uh, wherever you listen to your podcasts.
But this first part of this is a
strategic care, not equal care.
And one of the things is that I
learned is that, um, Uh, not all
groups are in the same place.
And so what we do at Saddleback
is that we, uh, we put our
groups into four buckets.
Well, one of them is, uh, personal care.
These are tend to be brand new groups
that need lots of care and attention.
Uh, the enemy's always trying
to, uh, destroy those groups
from getting, uh, traction.
And so it's important that, That, uh,
you give these groups, I'm sorry, I
messed up again, got ahead of myself.
It's called priority care.
You want to give them priority
care because they're new and
they need lots of touch points
because they're a brand new group.
And this is true, especially
during a church wide campaign.
When you're starting lots of new groups,
you need lots of touch points with
people to be able to help nurture them.
Another bucket, uh, in our care system
with our groups is understanding personal
care, and these are people who have taken
our leader training one, uh, haven't
quite grasped all the concepts, but
we're, we're helping them understand
those pieces of what it means to work
on spiritual health and other certain
dynamics inside your small group.
The third bucket of people that we have
is, is more of our, our, our veteran care.
And these are people who have done
both our leader training one and
our leader training two and have
a little grasp on our system.
And, uh, they're more of
our veteran group leaders.
They've been around for a while.
They don't need any care, but
they sure do need to know who to
go to in case they do need it.
And then the fourth bucket
is more persistent care.
So we have priority care.
We have personal care.
Uh, we have phone care for our veteran
people or however they want to interface
with us and then persistent care.
And these are the groups
that, you know, just sometimes
they're not getting back to you.
You're just trying to figure out, are you
a P1 or are you in the first bucket or
the second bucket or the third bucket?
And it's kind of like a holding bucket in
order to get them, uh, to, to know how to
work with them because each one of those
buckets needs a different level of care.
And in the first two buckets,
they need more proactive care.
That means you are engaging with them.
So if you're in a priority bucket or
a personal bucket, uh, what we call
P1 or P2, we want to make sure we're
doing, uh, proactive care to you.
Our P3s, which is the phone care or the
persistent care, those two buckets, and
it doesn't matter what you call these
buckets or whether if you have three
buckets or five buckets or six buckets,
it's just, we landed on four, but those
last two buckets get more reactive care.
Okay.
And that means when they have
issues, they'll, they'll kind
of raise their point with us.
And so it's just important to
understand that when you're building
a coaching model, different people
need coaching at different levels.
But there always is a point
when they need to come to you.
And again, if you think through a family
system, you're doing more intensive
care of the younger your kids are,
you're more proactive, you're with that,
but the older your kids get, the more
you're starting to go more to reactive.
They know where you're at.
I can think of my son who is in college.
And you know, we don't hear from him
all the time and we don't interface
with them, you know, as he, as you,
you want to, as much as, as a parent,
you want to engage with your kid.
Uh, but also there's many times he'll call
me at in the early hours of the morning on
a school project or different things like
that, because he knows where he can go to.
And so the thing I would say to you is so
often we do the same care for every group.
Just think through.
This, and then again, in chapter 14
of small groups with purpose, I talk
about this much more, uh, about the
buckets and how we utilize them and
how we take people to that next level.
Derek Olson: Good stuff.
Good stuff.
Well, Steve, take us home to number seven.
And this is one you, uh,
kind of added here late.
So I'll let you read the title.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, this is,
this is my audible call to Derek.
And I'm going, Hey, let's do this.
This is part of this, but, but this one
is, it takes a village, not one person.
And this is the piece where, uh, again,
referring to coaching, not only do
you do, you know, different care for
different buckets of where groups are at.
Yeah.
of where they're at.
You also have to understand that just
as in a family system, if you're a
parent, you understand this, this line,
it takes a village to raise your kid.
And in the same way, it takes a
village to raise a healthy small group.
And one of the things that I encourage
people to do is talk about every
aspect in your small group ministry and
every person that interfaces with your
small with your small group leader.
And that could be people
and that could be things.
So like in the people side, senior pastor,
they play a key role into the development
of your, uh, small group leader.
The small group pastor does your
community leader or your coach, whatever
you call them, peer to peer learnings.
Those are all different personal.
Those are all people oriented, uh,
things that have an influence on side.
Uh, into your small group leader.
But there's also things that you do.
Training also impacts
how your leader behaves.
Your, your small group newsletters
are one ways that impact your people.
Social media impacts your people.
There's many different things
that you do as a church.
both physically things or people.
So people are processes that will impact
them, that whole village that you line up.
And if you want more details on this and
planning small groups with purpose, this
is how often I've answered this question.
Page 143, there's a diagram that I put
in there for what we feel is our village.
But my point for you to understand is
just like in your physical parenting,
if not everybody in the village is.
Reinforcing the same values
that you have for your children.
That's a problem inside your village.
And in the same way inside your
small group village, that's helping
with your small group leaders.
You want everything saying the same thing.
And for us, it's talking about balancing
the, uh, the great commission, the
great commandment, those five verbs.
So again, it is a tactical piece.
that you've got to identify what are all
the pieces that speak into your small
group leader and then how are they all
aligning and saying the same thing.
Derek Olson: Well, there you've got it.
Uh, seven key ingredients of the
Saddleback small group difference.
And, uh, we really hope this
episode encouraged everybody
watching or listening.
We hope this, uh, uh, Better
equips you to build healthier,
um, more engaging small groups.
And, uh, Steve, any final
words before we call it a show?
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
Just remember that, uh, your small group
ministries will always have distinctives
and commonalities across the board and
just figure out what works best for you.
Uh, and inside your culture, every
culture is a little bit different.
But again, if we can help you out,
I'm available and, uh, my cell
number and my email are all on every
one of the social media channels.
So, uh, you can feel free to
find me any way you want to,
uh, but we're here for you.
Derek Olson: Thanks for spending
part of your day with us again.
We hope you enjoyed this episode
and until next time, goodbye.
Steve Gladen: See you guys.
Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to subscribe
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And to dive in deeper get more resources
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head over to small group network.com.