Software Social

Michele chats with Dan Rowden and James McKinven, hosts of the No More Mondays podcast, about how they each manage a portfolio of indie businesses.

Show Notes

Follow Dan!
See all of Dan's businesses:

Follow James!
See all of James' businesses:

Listen to No More Mondays:

Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at

What is Software Social?

Two indie SaaS founders—one just getting off the ground, and one with an established profitable business—invite you to join their weekly chats.

Michele: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. I am so excited to have guests plural with me today. We have James McKinven and Dan Rowden of the No More Mondays podcast with us, and both of them have like basically a million projects going on. So we're really excited to jump into all of that, James and Dan, thank you so much for coming on Software Social.

James: Thank you for having us, big listener of the show saying, looking forward to seeing or being a part of it.

Michele: Let's start a little bit from the top. Let's do some sort of scene setting, so to speak. So James, you are in the UK and you have six different businesses. Is that right?
James: It's funny. I've actually just gone onto my personal website to double-check all the projects I have on. I sort of say I've got three main ones. I've got Pod Panda, which is [00:01:00] my podcast editing service, which is basically just freelancing. And then I've got, the indie bites, which is my main podcast, which does a bit of sponsor revenue.
That's sort of my main side project. And then I've got No More Mondays, which I guess is, uh, another project. And then I've got my side side project, which is, which whitstable craft co which is handmaking leather wallets can let the one, it, and then I suppose I've also got the course, but I'm sort of tying the course into pod panda cause it's podcast.

Michele: So you've got like three and a half main projects.

James: Three and a half main projects, there's other things I start, like YouTube videos and, striqo was the original brand company I made. That was like my limited company. And it was made up using a name generator, but yeah, that's, I think that's all, I've got my blog as well. Is that a project?

Michele: I just work. I mean, does it make money?

James: No, no.

Michele: Yeah, again, not all things that are work, make money, right? Like we want them to make money. And.[00:02:00]

James: As as many indie the hackers know.

Michele: And so Dan, you are in Mauritius, uh, the, originally from the UK, is that right? Yeah. And you have eight different businesses, is that right?

Dan: I'm not sure. I have like four or five main ones, um, which are yeah, ilo for Twitter analytics cove, gloat, and refer mo, and then the podcast, obviously seen, and I have some other things that are kind of on the back burner. So those are like the main ones.

Michele: Okay. So we've got like roughly three plus more.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Around five, maybe total.

Michele: Okay. So we're at like an average of four active projects that you guys are working on here, and then, so, and so James your life situation, right? So, so you're in the UK, family, kids like spouse, what.

James: No most people don't know me know, I just live [00:03:00] alone with my cat, and I'm very fortunate where I live. I live in a little town where a little city called Canterbury, which is about an hour outside of London. Moved out of London to get a place in my own. Lovely, flat, loved living. And my sisters literally a hundred meters down the road that way.
My Nan and grandad are a hundred meters down the road. That way I'm literally literally on the same estate. So I get to go and visit them all the time. My sister's got like a little niece, so I get to go and see her like one years old. So I have like all the benefits family with none of the stress of it.

Michele: That sounds awesome. So did you move out of London to make it easier to be an indie hacker basically? Like, did you have like a.

James: No. I know I was, I miss London dearly. I was in Hammersmith in west London. I w it was always my dream to live there. Like I'd always lived around Canterbury be in Whitstable in Kent. But as sort of COVID happened and I had no need to work into office. I went back and stayed with mum for a little while and I was like, this is really nice.
I get to be with [00:04:00] family. And, um, I get to do a lot more with my time, like outside football team, my rejoin, my tennis club. I rejoined, I was like, this is really nice. My big frustration with London was it took you an hour to get anywhere. And I was like in Canterbury, I can just get into London in an hour anyway.
So. I thought, um, I'm not going to be able to buy a place in London anytime soon, but I probably could in Canterbury. So I did. And that's why I moved back.

Michele: Exciting. That sounds like that's been a huge shift for you, but really positive in terms of quality of life.

James: I mean, I'd love to spend less, but I don't. I still go into London as regular as I can. We do like indie London meetups, where we sort of the go to the pub or K work in London every couple of weeks. So I'm still going in regularly.

Michele: Fun. And so, so Dan, so you are currently in Mauritius and I say currently, because I was looking at your LinkedIn and it was like, okay, like UK and then Finland and South [00:05:00] Africa and Saudi Arabia, and mauritius and, and let you've also got a family, is that correct? Like, so take me back, like what's going on there.

Dan: Yeah, so I left the UK when I was like, 18 years ago. And haven't gone back really. My wife is Finnish. We met in high school in England, so I moved to Finland and I studied there. And then yeah, when South Africa went to Saudi Arabia and now we're in Mauritius.

Michele: And you have been doing your own projects for like a year now, is that like, you had a full-time job.

Dan: Yeah. So I've been building stuff. I don't know. It's from, since I can remember like the nineties probably. Um, but I only managed to like make a profitable, kind of decent app, uh, about five years ago I launched my first one, sub sale. So since then I've been kind of doing the indie hacking, like properly, but kind of on the side.
And then the last couple of years I launched those new projects that I mentioned earlier, and [00:06:00] that kind of allowed me to then leave my job in August.

Michele: So you both have a million or average of four projects going on. And this is something you guys have talked about a little, you know, a little bit on your episodes, of course. How do you manage all of those different projects? Just first on a basic level, like how do you decide where to spend your time?
Like when you sit down at your desk at whatever time of day, you sit down at your desk, how do you split your day? Is it like 20, 20, 20? Is it like this one's screaming at me, so I'm going to work on it today. Like Is it one day of the week? Just practically, like, how does that work?

James: Yeah. W we answered this question yesterday on, on a, we did a Q and a episode seat. Um, my answer is I don't. I'm really bad at managing all of them, and this is why the single focus has come up more recently because I wake up, oh, I'm [00:07:00] scrambling to do the work that I need to do. I would prefer it if I have a little bit more structure in our day.
And we say, as indie hackers know, well, maybe we'll have a little, we don't want this structure. We're trying to escape that structure and be able to work on what we want to when we feel like it.

But for me, that sometimes means I have like this choice paralysis of I've got all of these different projects to work on, all these things that do genuinely excite me, but I don't know which ones to work on. Sometimes, I'll work on something, it needs expense for client edit, and that will get me in trouble with the client, or I'll miss him indie bites deadline to do a tick tock and it will just be. I don't have a very good time, switching and planning between the projects, which is why I've been thinking more about what would happen for a few months.
If I had more focus on one project, which would be pod panda because that has the most opportunity to sustain me and put everything else on pause just, just for a couple of months and see how it goes. So, yeah, my answer is I'm not very good at managing them. And this is why I'm thinking about changing. What about you, Dan?

Dan: [00:08:00] Uh, yeah, so I don't really have a set structure, like a specific hours per day or per. Of course, the projects are typically focused on one for a period. And then kind of switched to another one for a period. So gloat which is my ghost hosting is kind of like mostly support or maintenance.

So I have to do that kind of regularly, but it's not, it's just kind of ongoing all the time, but it's only maybe an hour or two a week. Um, and then Ilo and Cove and refermo more, um, more like SaaS projects. So there are products that I spend more time on. And so like for Cove, I released a big update last month in April.

So I focused on that for like three weeks solid basically, just to get that out and make sure that it was in a good position to release. And now I'm kind of doing it a phase on Ilo, working on some new features and a new marketing site. And then I would like to get to refer Mo because I kind of released a very early version of that at the end of last year.

So, yeah, I might switch once the Ilo sites out on the features are out and I can maybe just focus on some marketing or promotion for that. Then I would switch my building hours to refer [00:09:00] mo so it's just kind of like phases basically. That's how I manage it. But the main key that I've found over the years, especially with kids and like, they were home for almost two years during COVID doing homeschool and stuff.

So like my time was severely restricted, which is to do like very focused, maybe half an hour on. So that I would write down specific tasks for Ilo that I wanted to complete each week. And I just kind of tick them off rather than like a big picture thing. It was literally like how small can you make each task and just get that done.

Michele: Right. Like turning one giant task, basically into a bunch of teeny tiny dopamine hits to get you through it.

Dan: Right. Yeah.

Michele: So James, you said something that, that reminds me of a question I had for both of you, you mentioned the word client. And is that a client for your productized service of podcast editing or is that consulting work you're doing on top of your projects, which kind of leads into my broader question, which is, do you guys have these, businesses of your own and then [00:10:00] are also doing consulting work on top of that.

James: Yeah, the clients had just for the product type service. And, I did take on extra bits, but realized that I really didn't enjoy it and I'm not massively good at doing work that I really don't enjoy. Some of that being just marketing.

So yeah, the pop panda for me is client work. I think Dan, you, you had a similar thing where you were taking client work at additionally and you have the productized service, which is technically client work and you sort of increase in decrease client work and where you need to change anything.

Dan: Yeah. So I kind of treat that again, like my projects where I can do a phase of client work. So at the beginning of this year, coming back off holidays, back to Europe I hadn't kicked into gear on any of my projects. I saw, I thought, oh, maybe this is a good time to just kind of, get some money and some money and do some client work.

And I do enjoy working on other people's projects. So I mostly, I do ghost like theme development customizations and [00:11:00] consultation. So yeah, I just kind of turn it off and turn it on throughout the year basically. So now I'm going through a period where I don't really want to do any, so, I got one more client left of the last batch, and then I won't look to do anymore.

Michele: Yeah, it sounds like Dan you're basically , you manage your energy, like really well, in terms of understanding where your energy is and focusing it there. And I know, I know other people who have consulting and product work and basically use the client work as a way to like save up for the rest of the year.

So they'll do like a, sort of a big burst of client work and then there'll be like, okay. And now this gives me like three, six months of runway. So I'll work on my projects and then, they're not where they need to be in three to six months for me to work on a full-time, then I'll take on some more client work and then like, kind of like scaling up and down with the client work, basically as they need to, for their own personal.

Dan: Yeah. So luckily with my projects, I'm in a place where I don't need to do client of work for like the monetary reasons, cause my projects kind of cover everything.[00:12:00] But it is nice to do your focus like month or two of gaining as much as possible the sec because it is a lot more fruitful than the MRI you get from.

It's kind of quite stable. And then you get an influx of a few thousand dollars for a few projects, just, just an extra bonus, if you can fit it.

Michele: So James, I'm curious, you mentioned that you don't enjoy doing client work. And I know quite a few people who are in that boat and try to avoid it. I'm curious for somebody who is currently consulting, who would love to have a SAS, would love to not be doing consulting. How would you contrast the experience of doing work for a client versus doing work for a customer?

James: Yeah. So I've got, be careful what I say, cause I don't want to turn off everyone from becoming a pop panda client, right. So I see I see people that come in for editing for pop Panda as clients. I don't [00:13:00] know if, how you see a differentiation there between clients and customers, but all of the podcast editing clients I have, I love, I really do enjoy doing those, but it's just not what I want to do long-term.

So I'm happy to put commitment and time into doing more of the podcast editing because I really enjoy it. Whereas if there was other client work for maybe video production, which is why I did the marketing stuff, which is what I did before, I just outright saying no to it, because sometimes Th that sort of work is less outcome based.

So when I'm doing a podcast at edit, I know that I'm really good at unedited is the audio into a produced show. And I know I can do that every time. I know I can do that well for clients, when there's a little bit more ambiguity in the brief, there might be not so many marketing deliverables. It then gets a little bit difficult because then you're dealing with what the client thinks they want you to do rather than what you think you want to do.

And I like [00:14:00] doing what I want to do, and I struggle when someone tells me other than. And I found that that's why I've struggled with jobs more recently is because when someone else has said they want something done a particular way, I would rather do it my way. And that's where I struggle with the podcast edits, they're a little bit, a little bit more straightforward. I don't think that kind of answers your question, but do you see where I'm going with it?

Michele: Yeah. It like, it sounds like when the client work is basically is something that you enjoy, but it's also kind of within a very specific scope of work, like it's not as broad as create, produce this video, you know. An ad for something, for example, versus like, if it's a podcast and it's more focused.

And I guess, it's sort of why we got like productized services rather than just a service, because there's, it's sort of like a ha way point between a client and a customer, but you brought up an interesting question, which is what is the difference between a client [00:15:00] and uh, customer. And I guess I would define that as a customer is asking you questions about how to use a product, right?

Like, there's a bit more distance there, right? Like they're not getting something custom versus a client is getting something more.

James: Yeah. The bespoke custom angle is probably probably a little bit better. Not that, that is probably where the productized service sits nicely in between, because it is repeatable.

It's a podcast edit it, but it is slightly different for every, every episode I do. There might be audio branding. They might prefer edits a specific way, like lots of outbursts that like edit. So yeah, that's a good distinction.

Michele: And speaking of bespoke, one of your lines of business, I think a pretty unique, but also a lot of people doing stuff like this, uh, craft type things is you have a wallet making business, which you're currently holding up for me.

Sorry, listeners. You can't see it, but they look lovely. And that, that's something you, I think like [00:16:00] we talked last year on an episode for indie bites, that actually, we, we both decided not to air, but you were just getting back into uh, working with leather at that time. And that was, I want to say this was like October, November of 2021. Is that correct?

James: Yeah. Yeah. About then.

Michele: Do you want to talk about that.

James: Oh, sorry, question. So. Yeah, I was getting, uh, it was a lockdown hobby. Definitely. I wanted something to get away from the screens and started leather the crafting. The first few were pretty terrible.

And then, yeah, October, November last year, started I get back into it. Around this time, I was also started doing craft, so taking something like crafts to local events, and I was just really, really enjoying the process of creating something with my hands.

Michelle, I've never been someone handsy. So being able to go from something that, a piece of leather into something that is usable, that people do also use every single day.[00:17:00] And seeing something I've made in people's hands is that a lot of my friends in the indie London community, that I've literally been at the beers with them with a pouch full of wallets.
And I've like gone through that wallet again. What is this? Come on, you've got to be carrying less cards than this. Well, I've got something just for you. And it's been, it's a, It's a little joke between us, but that.

Michele: Funny. Like you, you know, usually you go you go to a bar and if you're talking about your wallet afterwards, is that it was stolen while you were sitting at the bar. Not that you're coming home with two wallets.

James: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's a running joke that I am the wallet dealer of indie London. Well, because I come with my pouch and my eyes I'm like my card reader. So cause some people were like, oh, don't have any cash. I was like, don't you worry? I've got the card reader. Um, but yeah, it's just, it's really enjoyable to do.

And I've been slowly getting to the point, especially around that October, November, last year, where I was getting happy with my products, I thought they were really good quality. And sometimes[00:18:00] earlier on when I was just starting, maybe the quality wasn't quite there, but I say it's my side side project.

Again. I was speaking to Dan about this yesterday. What would happen if that became something that a lot more money? Say a standard amount is 10 K a month revenue, got paid for materials. That will be me making 10 of these wallets a day, which I think would completely remove the fun out of it.

But yeah, I've I sort of chip away on it every now and again, it's very much my sandbox. I'm not relying on it for money was pretty much funded by my other projects. And I have a little bit of money. I buy little bit of leather, but this year I've just crossed a thousand pound made with it, which is more than the entirety of last year.

So I just keep on a building up, building up to a point where it's just a little bit more money. I don't have more excuse to make wallets this.

Michele: That reminds me of another question I had for both of you, speaking of prioritizing, but like, you know, how do you figure out which of one of the many horses you have running[00:19:00] is the one with the most potential?

I mean, in some ways it's sort of like a core question of your podcast and something you guys are wrestling with but how do you, how do you know, looking at something, okay, this is making $50 a month right now.

But I think it could be making a thousand, two months from now versus this one, that's making a thousand right now. Like that's been stagnant, or, you know, this made nothing last year and now it's made a thousand pounds, congratulations, by the way. Like, how do you guys approach that? I guess what, we'll start with you.

Dan: Yeah. So I'm kind of going through this at the moment with refermo which is when my newest product, I think it probably has the biggest opportunity. So it's like referral software for paddle based SAS product. So you just get into integrate refermo and then you have a referral program, you know, SAS.

And because it's tied to businesses, it's like a B2B product, so I can charge more for it. And paddle is becoming a larger platform itself. So I think if I look at them, Uh, [00:20:00] objectively refermo might have the biggest potential. I've been running ilo now for almost two years, I haven't been able to like break through a few thousand MRR.

And I find it quite hard to grow that fast. I used to see Twitter as like an unlimited kind of source of customers and potentially it is cause there's like hundreds of millions of daily active users, but if I had to compare the two, I'd probably say refermo has like more potential. So that's kind of why I want to bring refermo but because I want to do, I mean, I also still want to push it forward, so I still have to work on both.

Yeah, it's hard to know. I mean, think about this all the time. Am I working on the right thing? And you just, you don't really know. I mean, you already can't tell. Yeah, right now, ilo knows my biggest project revenue wise. So it makes sense to keep working on it and keep pushing it because it'd be kind of silly to let it die.

Cause I have other projects that could be bigger potentially. Yeah, kind of hard to.

James: You don't have to let it die though, if you put focus on one thing, it's not say everything that's going to die, it's just maybe put on autopilot for a few months, because I do think [00:21:00] having this whole focus on whatever it might be Dan, maybe you just spend a little bit of time working on, refermo me to get out.

So boy, maybe pause everything else, push it on ilo though and see the real potential of it. Can you just don't know, what potential it has. Is because it's given, like it's taken up such a small slice of your mind and it Headspace until you're like, oh, I should work a little bit. Yeah,
Dan: Yeah, I dunno. So, like I said, I'm going to ilo now and launch the marketing and some new features. And see if that kind of moves the needle and then I'll go through a refermo. And then, yeah, I don't know

James: It will. It won't mean the

Dan: that phase. I don't know. Well, we won't know.

James: What if it doesn't meet the, need it, then you're like, oh, ' cause as surely like only a small, small, little bit of focus on something is not going to push the needle enough to make you think whether it's something to, to be worthwhile.

I wonder what the timeframe of it is. Would you have to put four or five months into something to really see whether It's something worth pursuing?

Dan: Yeah, [00:22:00] I do kind of envy the people who just have one thing to think about and that like their long-term plan just has one product in it.

James: Yeah.

Dan: It's like, I don't even know what's happening in like September, for example, with any of my products. Cause I'm so kind of involved in balancing everything. So yeah, at an eighth can be hard.

James: I know, far more people that have gone from the, a multiple projects, serial rule maker to single focus that I know have gone the other way around because often those people with a single focus as well might have a mini projects within their business, but their main focus is to grow the revenue of this thing.

So like pod panda it can also involve the course and another little podcast in products I might build within it. How do you think about this, Michelle?

Michele: Yeah, it's really funny. Cause, I guess we had a couple of different projects in the beginning and then we basically have mostly focused on for the past seven years with a couple of detours.

And I guess, I have this podcast now. I have my book, but like, I don't really. I don't really think of [00:23:00] those podcasts as a revenue stream. Like our goal is kind of to just pay for its expenses.

And then if it can pay for Colleen and I, meet up at a conference once a year like that, that's the goal, at least from my perspective. Colleen might tell you something very different because she's actively trying to make the transition away from consulting work.

And then my book , yes, it's revenue, but I didn't write it for the money. And I almost consider it more of like a professional insurance policy.

If for some reason there's, you know, like a meteor, like hits my life and geocodio ceases to exist overnight for some reason. And I have to go out and get a job or get consulting, like, because I have my book and people know, you know, what I'm good at, and when I think about it.

Then I could go out and get consulting versus before I didn't ever feel like as a product person, like, it's a bit more, vague. I feel like it like harder to get consulting work, whereas for developers it's, you know, Mathias could pick something up, you know, today if [00:24:00] he had to. So yeah, so I'm pretty much focused on geocodio in terms of the business side of things.

James: And when you see our projects and having so many of them, like you can always hear from the introductions you like, so you have six projects, James. Dan, you have eight, it's almost as if bits in fathomable that we have so much. And would you think, how is it possible? Why.

Michele: Yeah, it's a little bit, how, like, if you hear somebody has 15 children, wow. Okay. I'm, I'm impressed. Um, you know, actually I'm, I'm really curious, like, so, if you guys, each basically had to like rank your projects right now from one to however, many of how much money they're making you right now, but then do another ranking of the long-term potential of those projects,

I'm curious, like how much overlap there would be in those rankings and then we could even go this further, but there's a lot to keep in your head at one [00:25:00] time of like where you spend your time to, so which one is taking the most time to the least time? I guess if I can I can put you guys on the hot seat with this a little bit.

James: Dan can go first.

Michele: Dan, you have been voluntold, um, to go first. So Dan, if you had to, well, we'll start with the first one. So if you had to rank your projects from most to least the amount of revenue they're bringing in right now, what does that list look like?

Dan: Okay. So I don't know exactly, but this is kind of roughly, so ilo would be top, then it's probably my ghost themes at the moment. So I also do ghost themes, which I did mentioned earlier, that's doing quite well at the moment. And then it would be sub sale, which is my first SAS for magazine subscriptions.

And then it would be gloat and then Cove and yeah. And then if I did a contract work, then it would kind of probably sit in the middle somewhere because I don't like taking on too much at time. And then [00:26:00] refermo my right at the bottom, cause I literally just turned on paid plans a few weeks.

Michele: So, and then if you had to rank them in terms of where you see, long-term potential.
Dan: So ilo and refermo mode, I don't know how to choose between them. So a refermo would be at the top rather than the bottom and ilo would be at the top, as well as being at the top on the other list. And then, yeah, themes is hard because you have to keep making themes. And it's kind of very random, as well.

Like one theme could take off and the next one couldn't be, like you work on it at the same amount of time and it just doesn't get any sales. So that's kind of like a hard to kind of gauge. And then, gloat and Cove and subsale just kind of hover around. A gloat and cove still under two K MRR, so they're not big products.

And I don't really push them hard because I'm working on other things. But, yeah. So that would be kind of the lower end.

Michele: And then in terms of like where you spend your time. Where do you spend the most.

Dan: Well it depends which kind of phase I'm in, it kind of, mostly [00:27:00] ilo. The last few months it would be ilo, mostly and Cove. Gloat like I said, just, just a couple of hours a month, a couple hours a week. Subsale are basically nothing, just customer support. And themes, if I'm making any, it was 30 to 40 hours per theme.

So that's quite a lot of upfront work and I've been trying to do one every month. Yeah.

Michele: Yeah.

Dan: But

Michele: Ilo is pretty consistently at the top there in terms of money it's making, potential that you see, and where you spend your time, so that's pretty aligned. But refermo is that one that's kinda like there's a lot of movement below ilo.

In terms of, you know, consulting is making a lot of money, but maybe, or, you know, the themes are making money, but not necessarily where you see the potential.

And other projects up there right now where you're spending a lot of time, that aren't necessarily where you see the future being.

Dan: Yeah. I don't know. It's kind of hard to judge. I think your ilo just like maybe the one that I want to do well. Maybe that's the way it's always at the top of the list. It's [00:28:00] like the one that have the most passion for, yeah. And it's just kind of, it seems like it's a good idea and it seems like he could do well, but it's just so early that it's just very hard to tell.

James: Why have you put for a refermo on pause or like, because the idea came sort of five, six months ago. Well, why has it not been higher.

Dan: What, so I launched it in October, november time, and then we went away over Christmas. I didn't really do any work on anything. And then I just had to kind of schedule other stuff, stuff out. So the, the Cove release, and now I'm working on the ilo release so it's just kind of had to wait its time. No other reason really. Do you want to get your list?

James: Mine. Yeah.

I wrote it down and I dunno why I wrote it down, cause it's pretty easy to remember, but Pod Panda because it's client work is doing the most revenue wise. A lot of my projects aren't recurring revenue per se, but you probably can take a stab at what it would be every month.
So pod panda is kind of work is doing the most money. Then it would be in indie, indie bites. I still get 225 pound an [00:29:00] episode for sponsors. And last month I did eight episodes. So technically I did just under two grand a month, last month for indie bites, but with more focus on going back to one a week.

And then, whistlecraft we'll craft we'll make the next most money, I guess. But that, again, that fluctuates, depends how much time I put into it if I get more sales. Um, and then it would be no more Mondays, which is again, hard to cause we've charged different amounts for episodes, so it's hard to say exactly how much we earn every month.

In fact, that would probably above whistlecraft craft. In terms of what has most potential, I think both podcasts have most potential for revenue in the future. It has most potential for revenue without changing the workload as well. So if I kept producing indie bites and kept growing it, I can keep increasing the income of it.

And. I very much believe in the sponsor versus podcast content relationship, we interested in your thoughts on that, actually, [00:30:00] Michelle.

And I think I really enjoy doing the indie bites sharing. I think it has more potential and the same in no more Mondays. It's been really surprising how many people have latched on to this, to bootstrappers indie founder ride along format, has done.

The podcast though do have most potential. I mean, pod Panda, like how big can you make a productized service? How big can you make an agency? Probably huge, but then you're increasing the workload with the revenue. And I don't particularly want to just trade my time for money. I can build out systems to outsource things.

Yes, of course. But I don't know how excite them about the prospect of that, but certainly getting pod panda to a point, it's more consistently sustaining me revenue wise. And then poor whistle craft at the bottom of the list of least potential for revenue. I mean, it's like one-time purchase.

I literally say if, if you buy from me once you'll never buy from me again. Um, yeah.

Michele: [00:31:00] Least potential, but maybe most potential for joy.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, potential for joy would be riding my motor bike around, and shooting go pro videos that, probably. Or like running a cat sanctuary or something, uh, time spent, it would be client edit is number one then in the indie bites because I edit that a lot. Then no more Mondays then, whistle will craft. Oh, and then the course.

I forgot about the course. Gosh, because I haven't made any money with the course in a little while. That is my favorite revenue, because You don't have to do anything.

Michele: there's you just forgot about it and it's still making them.

James: Well, it doesn't make much money now, cause I haven't done anything with it, but when I did launch it, it was sort of just validating.

Can I earn some money with this thing? And I did. And every time I got to say, and it was bloody fantastic, I was like, this is great. I don't know if the anything else I've literally made the, but turns out with a course, you have to do a lot more work to keep it going to keep it top of mind, keep selling more, to even improving in the [00:32:00] course.

So, yeah, I like that also has potential, but less than my thought has gone into it where I'm just trying to make some money at the moment.

Michele: So, because if you love the course and you also love wallet making like wallet making course.

Like maybe your Tik TOK videos will lead into that. You guys have been both have been really pushing Tik TOK lately. Like, not that I don't want to be like adding to the problem here, like, you know.

James: Yeah, D T Tik TOK was like another side project, like in terms of amount of time, I was spending on that. Cause we're doing the tick-tock challenge this month. Try and do one every day and it takes so much longer as I make these little videos. I'm so much more respect for actual tik talkers. Because, you think about how much time you might spend on one particular project or one particular client, the tick-tock.

If you're doing it every day or doing multiple tik tocks a day easily, a couple of hours. I unless you're doing in a little dance, which Dan still hasn't done. Uh.

Dan: You don't want to see if me [00:33:00] dance dance.

Michele: me either, which is why you don't see me, uh, on, on Tik TOK. And I consume tik toks on Instagram, like the old person that I am.

So Dan, James, it's been so great chatting with you guys today. If people wanted to follow along with the journey, figure out whether it's ilo or refermo that ends up leading the race six months from now, or whether James ends up running that cat sanctuary in between making wallets and riding around on his motorcycle, making GoPro videos. Where did they go to find out more about you guys and no more Mondays and your.

James: Yeah. no Mondays is no more Mondays FM. We've got a fancy new transistor theme that Dan built or at on Mondays FM on Twitter. I'm at Jamie McKim on Twitter. I hang out there a lot, is handle ask is Dan is old and he got into Twitter very early.

Dan: Yeah, T that's a Twitter account.[00:34:00] I got it on Instagram as well.

James: Yeah, cause you're also, I was barely even had internet and like, I dunno if I knew how to use a phone at the time that you were getting your fancy handles.

Michele: Yeah. I wonder if like, uh, so Denmark's version of the BBC is called Dr. And I'm like, oh wait. I wonder if they've ever like, reached out to you to try to buy your handles.

Dan: I'm pretty sure they have.

James: Have they? Why don't you sell it?

Dan: on. Why would I sell it?

James: Well, are you because it gives you no benefit.

Dan: It looks cool.

James: Yeah.

Dan: But it's mine. It's always been mine. I don't want to give it to him.

James: be yours too. I have no idea how much that would mean. We spoke about this, didn't we about your Instagram, dr like that you don't use that though. I mean, it's clout but like who are you trying to impress Dan?

Dan: I'm not trying to impress anyone.

James: Exactly. So sell it, get the longer.

Michele: All right. Guys, it has been so great. [00:35:00] I'm talking to you today before we go, I want to give a huge thanks to all of our listeners, who've become software socialites and support our show. You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year at software

Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome Kevin Griffin, Mike from gently used domains, Dave from recut, max of onlineornot, Stefan from talk to Stefan, Brendan Andre of bright bits, Aaron from Tuple,

Alex Hillman from the tiny MBA, Ramy from, Jane and Benedikt from user list, Kendall Morgan, Rubin Gamez of signwell, Corey Haynes of swipewell, Mike Wade of crowd sentry, Nate Ritter of room steals, Anna Maste of subscribed sense,

Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin Jackson mega maker, Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, Matthew from appointment reminder, Andrew Culver at [00:36:00] bullet train, John Koster, Alex of corso systems, Richard from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly pragmatic founder. Yes, that's actually what he wants me to read.

Um, Ben from consent kit, John from credo and editor ninja, Cam Sloan, Michael Koper of nusii proposals, Chris from URL box, Caeli of tosslet, Greg park from trait lab, Arvid Kahl, James Sowers of, Nathan of develop your UX, and Jessica Malnik. All of our supporters, James and Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.

James: thank you, Michelle. What a list that was.

Michele: Isn't it amazing. I just love, I love reading that.

James: What will you do if that gets to like, well, when it gets to a hundred, 200 people.

Michele: A really big glass of water. See you guys.