So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

"Can you leave some space for the possibility that you don't know everything, that there could be another side to it?" - Aaron Clark

Most of us think we know exactly what a "white collar criminal" looks like. Aaron Clark wants us to question that assumption.

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey are joined by Aaron Clark, white collar defense attorney and former federal prosecutor, for a conversation about justice, confirmation bias, and what it's like to stand beside people during the hardest moments of their lives.

Aaron shares why he left the U.S. Attorney's Office for private practice, what surprised him most about defending people accused of federal crimes, and why listening is often the most powerful skill a lawyer can have.

Along the way, the conversation explores reputation, second chances, business development, and why doing the brave thing every day often starts with something much smaller than you think.

Whether you're a lawyer, legal marketer, or simply someone who wants to think more critically before rushing to judgment, this episode offers a thoughtful reminder that every story has more than one side.

You'll hear about:
  • Why Aaron transitioned from federal prosecutor to white collar defense attorney
  • The misconceptions people have about white collar crime
  • How confirmation bias shapes investigations and everyday life
  • Why listening is one of the most valuable skills any lawyer can develop
  • The human cost of criminal accusations, even before a verdict is reached
  • What it's like to help clients navigate the most difficult moments of their lives
  • Building a book of business after leaving government practice
  • Why relationships, not sales tactics, drive long-term business development
  • The courage it takes to do something that scares you every day
  • How baking cookies became one of Aaron's favorite ways to connect with clients

About Aaron Clark: 

Aaron Clark is a white collar criminal defense attorney and former Assistant U.S. Attorney who spent years prosecuting federal cases before moving into private practice. Today, he represents individuals facing government investigations and high-stakes criminal matters, combining his experience on both sides of the courtroom with a thoughtful, people-first approach to advocacy.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Aaron Clark: As well-meaning as all of us are, we have this tendency as humans to stake an opinion early and then to filter everything that we receive through the lens of that opinion so that it confirms our opinion. And it takes an incredible amount of mental work to reverse your opinion once you have formed it. Can you leave some space for the possibility that you don't know everything, that there could be another side to it?
[00:00:33] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work, life, and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we want to know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. Aaron, the first time that you and I chatted about, like, what we would talk about, I'd like to start off with, like, the white collar framing, because it's not something that I had had exposure in my big law business development experience at all.
[00:01:03] I just didn't touch it. And in the last, like, couple of months, I have had now, like, multiple white collar people in my, like, network, which I find fascinating that, like, the world happens in that way. But my probably biased, negative pre-misconception about white collar is that, like, it's for... Like, it's only bad people, and there's, like, all this bad stuff happening and bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
[00:01:27] And then when you and I chatted, you were talking about some of the human side and how some people might be, like, wrongfully accused, or maybe you did something and, like, it doesn't deserve to be, like, elevated to certain levels and, and kind of vice versa. So I'd love to just start with some, like, level setting on, like, why did you pick that?
[00:01:46] Where did it start? I'm just curious. Why do people fall into certain areas of law?
[00:01:51] Aaron Clark: Sure. Well, Megan, you kind of hit on the elephant that is apparently in the room when you're talking about white collar stuff because what your sense is, is what a lot of people, including my wife, have had this conception of, of white collar defendants.
[00:02:05] It's such a broad bucket that a lot of people get dumped into. I can tell you, having been a prosecutor, you know, I, I, I prosecuted in, in San Diego order crimes, and I spent five years or so prosecuting large-scale narcotics trafficking organizations, so getting wiretaps and those things. And, and I can tell you, as a prosecutor of white collar offenses here in Utah, like, some of the worst people that I've prosecuted, it was the white collar folks because they're preying on people and taking advantage sometimes of affinity fraud.
[00:02:37] And he- out here in Utah, sometimes a lot of that is the religious affiliation that people have, and that can feel especially sinister. And I think that's what you think of, like Ponzi schemes and things like that. But there's a much bigger bucket of that. I have, like, one of the folks that I represented was accused of wire fraud in connection with some PPP, Payroll Protection Plan loans related to COVID.
[00:03:01] And the sum of the charges, and these were federal charges, but he checked the wrong box on two different loan applications saying that he did not have a disqualifying felony or prior criminal history. And understandably, the prosecutors, the, the, the government looked at the fact that he checked these boxes on two different forms and gotten them wrong as obvious intentionality and went forward with the prosecution, arrested him, had him detained for a few days before he could get in front of a magistrate.
[00:03:29] And the government en-ended up dismissing that case ultimately. But what they didn't seem to know at the time was, one, this guy just doesn't look carefully at forms at all. But two, like six months before his, his, uh, teenage son had committed suicide, and he was a shell of himself at the time that he's filling those things out.
[00:03:48] Hmm. And they are the kind of details that, you know, even when folks are in earnest and trying to look at all the facts, they, they miss things. And I could tell you story after story of things like that where you've got people in earnest on the side of the government. They're not... They don't have an ax to grind, but they just end up getting it wrong.
[00:04:08] And there is a lot of fallout even when they end up trying to correct having got something wrong or whether a, when a jury corrects something. So you asked me how I got into this. After my first year of law school, I, I took on with the US Attorney's office here in Utah as a summer clerk. I, I couldn't find any firms that wanted to pay me money as a, as a first-year summer associate.
[00:04:32] So I got to do that, and I watched these prosecutors going to trial, and I thought, "This is the coolest thing in the world." And I loved the idea of not just being a trial lawyer, but of getting to then pursue justice and putting on the white hat and just representing the United States. And it would turn out that that opportunity would open up for me like a year out of law school.
[00:04:53] I, I started at a firm in Orange County, California, and, um, the billable hour was like... It was maddening to me. And And I ran from it as quickly as I could. Uh, and I loved, I loved, I loved being an assistant US attorney, being a prosecutor, growing up and learning to try cases and how things worked. And then I moved up to Utah after my father died, uh, back in twenty fifteen, and transitioned into doing these white collar prosecutions.
[00:05:25] And the, the scary thing and the fun thing about them is people have this sense that they are really complex cases, and I, I guess they can be more than some of the drug prosecutions that you do. But at the end of the day, for me, it really just comes down to the fact that, you know, it's, it's against the law to lie to somebody to get their money.
[00:05:45] And you can go th- wade through all of these documents, but really you're trying to put together an answer to that story. Did this person knowingly lie to get the other people's money? If they did, that's usually fraud. If they didn't, it ends up usually just being a bad business deal or some other thing.
[00:06:03] I loved being a prosecutor on the side of justice, and then I transitioned to the private sector, and it turns out I often still feel like I am fighting for justice now. It just-- it, it looks different on this side, but it's, it's the same goal, and it is-- it's really interesting to me how im- passionate I feel about it on this side because for me, almost there, there's nothing worse than when the government gets it wrong.
[00:06:31] You, you have people who are gonna commit crimes, and they're going to be held accountable for it. But it's, it's this tricky situation if you feel like the government didn't get it quite right, and the only person really you've got there to stand up and help demonstrate that is a defense attorney. So it, it sounds a little corny maybe, but you know, it, it feels sometimes like you're stepping into a calling doing this because you meet people usually in the worst moments of their life.
[00:06:59] You're sitting down with them. Sometimes they're in jail, sometimes they've just been issued a summons. But you go over this indictment with them, and you have to walk through, "Okay, what do we do now?" And it's a fraught time. Like I, I tell clients all the time, I'm not meeting them in the best of circumstances, and unfortunately, I never do.
[00:07:19] But, uh, that's, that's what gets me excited about it. That's why I'm passionate about it.
[00:07:25] Jennifer Clark: Well, and I, you know, it's interesting because when we worked at Pillsbury, you know, a lot of times we had a, there was a white collar practice there. And what, what you're, you are really working with individuals and, and people, whereas a lot of the, you know, working in big law, the clients are the companies or the, the big bad oil companies or environmental companies.
[00:07:47] And yes, there are people who are at those companies that are the client, but it's really the company or the entity is the client. And so, like, you are really working with someone at the molecular level of humanity- Yeah ... right? And, and they all have a story to tell. And you, whether you were on the prosecution side or now on the defense side, you have to help extract their story.
[00:08:16] Right. And, um, that is, I can see why that's, you w- you are passionate about that because it really is, comes down to, like, human lives versus just, like, oh, this company dumped a bunch of oil in the Gulf, which is bad, yes. But it's t- it's different than, like, dealing with a human and how to stand up for them and be their advocate.
[00:08:36] Megan Senese: Even if they did something wrong. I mean, right? The- Right ... most of what we're talking about is, like, there's finding out the truth, and then there's also making sure that the, I think to an extent, that the punishment fits the- Oh, sure. Right ... you know? Right. And so that they're not being used as an example.
[00:08:52] Um, the, I mean, this is just, this is a sidestep and not exactly the same, but my children lied to me this morning 'cause grandma watched them yesterday, and they watched a TV show that they're not allowed to, and l- straight up lied to, to grandma. And so when I came home, I had to decide, like, how we were going to deal with the lying situation and making sure that I wasn't coming down too harsh, and I made them write apology notes.
[00:09:15] That was, that was their, that was their punishment. My fifth grader had to have it spelled correctly. So but making sure that the, that it's not over- overdoing it or too much, or that someone is speaking up for you, right? And, and I think that's the piece that sometimes gets lost. I mean, it definitely had for, for me, where I'm like, "Why would anyone want to represent the bad guy?"
[00:09:33] Right? Like- Mm. Mm-hmm. But I, what I heard you say about the calling, it had been a while since I had heard that. But we had another podcast guest, um, I'm thinking of Daniel Barr. Mm-hmm. And he talked about how that is the, the law was a calling for him, and he is now the Deputy Attorney General for the State of Arizona.
[00:09:54] Wow. And so I, I'm happy to introduce you to him too. But, um, he, he's, he's lovely and but he was in private practice, and then, and went the other way, right? So private practice first, and then went into, um, into the government, but he used the word calling as well. And so I, I find that I always like to be reminded of when people say similar things, uh- Yeah
[00:10:15] because I think that's what brings people together, right? Those threads of, of commonality.
[00:10:19] Aaron Clark: Yeah. Yeah, Megan, I, uh, you know, all my years as a prosecutor, I was not the disciplinarian in my house. I was always finding reasons why my kids should get out of punishment rather than being pun- I don't know what that says about me, but it's been a few years since I've confronted...
[00:10:36] My, my kids are a little bit older now. My youngest is 17, but it's very much a microcosm of what happens in the criminal justice system, too, just without due process necessarily and, and the protections of the Constitution.
[00:10:49] Megan Senese: Yeah. I mean, they didn't have any representation. I straight up was like, I straight up was like, "You lied."
[00:10:54] And they were like, "Yes, we did." And so that was it. Um, so you talked about meeting people in their, like, worst times regard whether they did it or not, right? Right. Um, they lied, they didn't lie, or the extent of it. What is your approach to, to- Coming at the situations from a human level, right? And, and staying calm.
[00:11:12] Like I, I would assume most of the white collar people haven't spent a lot of time in jail, or maybe they have. I don't know. So maybe it's their first time in jail. So talk to us about what... Yeah, what does that look like?
[00:11:24] Aaron Clark: Sure. Uh, goodness, like, uh, in, in almost every instance, you, you are sitting down with people, and they're kind of looking to you hopefully to solve their problems.
[00:11:32] You, you meet all kinds, but it, it's often a matter of sitting down and making sure that they understand the charges against them. Sometimes they're very anxious to tell you their story. Usually, at this point I have not seen anything other than what the charge is, and I, I'm listening to these people, and I'll...
[00:11:49] Usually I'll, I'll try to kind of pause them on saying, "I, I don't... I, I... If it's important to you, I'm, I'm happy to hear it now, but let's take some time to work through the evidence before we start having a conversation so it can be informed so that I, I know what we're doing." But really, I, I say that, but also I, it feels like the most important thing I'm doing there is trying to listen and help them feel that I see them, and it's surprising how often we lawyers seem to forget that these people are going through something traumatic and often just want that acknowledged and, and how much it, it eases some tension when you can tell them that you see them in this difficulty and that it's awful and it's causing all these kinds of repercussions.
[00:12:33] And I don't have all the answers on what's gonna happen yet 'cause I haven't seen anything. I can tell you about the procedure and what's gonna happen at the initial appearance, and we're gonna walk through things and ask for bail, and the prosecutor's going to agree to it or he's not. I can tell you about who the judge is.
[00:12:47] But it, it's trying to bring some sense of calm to them about the situation that, "My attorney might not have all the answers, but he sees me and he can handle it." And, and that, that's mostly what I'm trying to convey when I'm, when I'm meeting these people, uh, and, and talking through things for the first time.
[00:13:05] Megan Senese: So I imagine that most of your phone calls are people who are in immediate trouble, right ? I mean, is it- Sure ... do the... Is it when people... By the time people are calling you, is it the actual person, or is it, like, a contact of someone who heard? Like, how do, how do people even come through to you? Let's talk about your referral system.
[00:13:24] No. How, how, how are people coming to you? Are they, like, already, like, well- in it, in the sh- in the shit storm of their life now? Or is there a moment where, I mean, maybe b- they shouldn't have committed the crime at all, but, like, when do people come to you?
[00:13:38] Aaron Clark: Uh, it really can depend, Megan. Some- sometimes, sometimes I'm meeting people where they've just gotten a target letter from the US Attorney's office saying, "Hey, we're investigating you for wire fraud.
[00:13:52] You, we want you to know that you're a target. Uh, you might wanna consider getting counsel right now." That, that's in the early stages where an investigation may have gone overt, but sometimes they remain covert until the time of arrest. And so, you are meeting people after they've been arrested and picked up, or a summons has been issued.
[00:14:11] And, um, so, you know, the, the earlier in the process, the better usually, because then you have a chance to try to hopefully talk with the prosecutors and try to shape the charges and where things play out. But other times, you're just completely reactive, and they've been charged, that decision's been made, and you're figuring out how to move forward from there.
[00:14:31] Jennifer Clark: What was the, the draw back to private practice for you, Aryan, when after you were, you came from
[00:14:43] Aaron Clark: AUSA here in San Diego, and then back into private practice? What drew you back? Oh, I mean, there are a, a, a few reasons. Um, but money is, is a big one. Like, e- I, I have three kids now, two of whom are college a- actually, all three of them are college age now, and, and stretching a government salary out could only go so far for so long, and I held out, uh, as long as I could.
[00:15:04] I'll, I'll also just tell you though, like, there... I've had this growing sense for a few years to try to do the thing that I'm afraid of, like, to try to be brave every day. I'm, I am an introvert, and I can be pretty shy, so sometimes that just meant, like, "I'm gonna talk to somebody in the elevator today and comment on their shoes," or something like that.
[00:15:23] But I had always been a bit terrified of going back to private practice and this idea of having to find clients and bill my time again. But so there was this allure to doing the thing that I'm afraid of so that I wouldn't be afraid of it anymore.
[00:15:39] Jennifer Clark: I love that. And what
[00:15:43] Talk to us a little bit about that transition. Like going... 'Cause I, I mean, we do know quite a few lawyers who have gone f- you know, they go from one side to the other, and I'm always interested in, you know, what was that transition like for you to go from, like you said, a prosecutor, you didn't, you didn't have a billable hour, you didn't have to do business development, you didn't have to do marketing- Right
[00:16:05] um, to going in-house, working within another heavily matrixed organization kind of like the government. Um, but, but, you know, having a lot of different variables and responsibilities to think about. What, what was that transition like, and how would you compare/contrast them for somebody who might be listening who might be- Mm
[00:16:28] Megan Senese: contemplating- Yeah ...
[00:16:30] Jennifer Clark: contemplating going one way or the other?
[00:16:31] Megan Senese: We get, we get that a lot, actually, Jen. That's a g- that's a great question. Also, how long has it been, Aaron? It's not been that long, right?
[00:16:37] Aaron Clark: It's been about three and a half years now.
[00:16:40] Megan Senese: Okay. Okay. Uh,
[00:16:40] Aaron Clark: so-
[00:16:41] Megan Senese: Okay.
[00:16:41] Aaron Clark: So Jen, it was mildly terrifying. It, it- Okay.
[00:16:44] It still is. Um, for- fortunately, I have... I, I, I get to practice law with my best friend, um, Trinity Jordan. He, he's, he's a partner with me, and we do a bunch of work bases together. But he helped. He, he had been trying to coax me out for years, and then when I was ready to jump, he... I, I gave him the word, and he f- Tried to do as much legwork as he could.
[00:17:07] Uh, but it is, it is such a different animal now, where I got to the point where I was fairly comfortable doing what I was doing as a- Mm-hmm ... as attorney. Like, the cases would come to you, I'd work them, and these white collar cases didn't move as fast as some of the other drug crime stuff, so I could be con- contemplative, deliberate, and really just had to, to focus on to make sure that I am doing my work to the best I can.
[00:17:33] Now, doing the work to the best that I can is certainly one of those things, but it's just one of them, and I have to worry about where is the work going to come from, am I billing my time correctly, am I getting it in on time, and what else am I doing, like networking. W- how am I putting myself out there?
[00:17:51] Mm. And it's funny, like, I've, I've seen what your business is and what the two of you do, and I'm like, wow. Like, 'cause I didn't really... There, there wasn't much guidance to me for how do you develop a book of business as a government lawyer who has nothing? And-
[00:18:09] Jennifer Clark: Right ...
[00:18:10] Aaron Clark: you know, it, it turns out it's really helpful that I wasn't an asshole as a prosecutor.
[00:18:16] Jennifer Clark: Sure. Yeah.
[00:18:17] Aaron Clark: Because my biggest referral sources when I came out were defense attorneys that I had been working with as a prosecutor, who, who seemed to like who I was. And at the time, I had no... It, it hadn't even occurred to me that this would matter. You know, I was just trying to be a decent human being.
[00:18:33] But it turns out it mattered a whole lot. So I am thinking about work almost all the time now, Jen, and trying to figure out how to do this, and it is something that requires me to be brave every day in one way or another. Yeah.
[00:18:48] Megan Senese: Yeah. Like showing up today.
[00:18:50] Aaron Clark: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:53] Megan Senese: I don't know if it, if you need, you know, comforting, but if it makes you feel any better, everything that you talk about is, I mean, that is why our business exists.
[00:19:02] But that als- the reason that exists is because we saw that when we were still in, in big law. And how to do it, w- when to do it, and just h- doing the good work, you have to go beyond that now, right? It's not, that's not enough in a lot of ways. And, and that's tough, particularly when you have a very big billable target that you have to hit, and now you have to fit in extra things and spend time with your family and, and have a life and, and, and try and do yoga.
[00:19:29] And it can be really, really tricky. And, and I think for us, our approach is that you can do, like, one... The same way that you wanna do one thing that terrifies you every day or be brave every day, our approach is, like, one tiny business development activity every day. And we think about it as relationship development, which is literally the entire thing that you have been talking about, right?
[00:19:50] So everything is about how are you developing those relationships? And you're already talking to us about all of that. You're just not thinking or saying that you're doing business development. Confirming with your clients, calming them down, going to referral sources, being kind- Building trust Right?
[00:20:10] Establishing your name in the market, that's all business development, which is really relationship development. So if you needed a little boost, you're already doing it. I hope you can feel good about that.
[00:20:20] Aaron Clark: Thank you, Megan. I, I saw one of your mini episodes on, on how to handle, like, conferences. I, I think it...
[00:20:27] Was it you, Megan, who put that one out? Who... With the idea of just going to connect with one or two people. It opened up that to me, where the conferences that have, have been another one of those things where you're paying a bunch of money to go to this thing, and it's sort of about the CLE that you get, but then being in a room with just a bunch of people and say, "Go mingle," can be...
[00:20:51] I- is, is kind of mildly terrifying, another mildly terrifying thing for me. But the idea of going and f- finding a couple people to just really connect with and looking at it as a long-term relationship building thing really, I mean, that felt doable, and it felt like it's something that fits within who I am and who I wanna be.
[00:21:08] So it, it seems like you guys have this figured out.
[00:21:11] Megan Senese: I appreciate you flagging that one, 'cause I, I think what Jen and I love to talk about, particularly as it comes to conferences, and there are tons of white collar conferences that you can look up if you haven't, if you haven't gone to any of them yet.
[00:21:21] Jen, Jen loves to be in a big room and say, uh, mingle, right? And, and I, and I do not, even though I consider myself to be extroverted. And so I think it just depends on what business development or relationship development has to be something that is gonna feel good for you. Because then that's, like, your most authentic self, and people like you, and the, the days of, of which people would come back and report, "You know, I, I got this huge matter out of going to one conference," I think those are over, or, and I also think people don't see the years and years and years and years and years and years and years of building that happens out of that, right?
[00:21:59] So I think as, as someone who grew up in big law on the PD side, you'd have these rainmakers saying, "Oh, I went to one conference, and you know, I got this giant case in," or, "This giant transaction in, and it was worth it." But they didn't say, "Well, I have been going to the same conference and following up with these people and sending them things of value for years, and that's why it's worth it," right?
[00:22:18] And so I think that part gets kind of omitted. So what I'd like to know is something like, I'm coming back to the, like, the, the misconceptions or, or, you know, people making up their opinions about certain cases. There's Not gonna ask you to comment on it, but there has been some, like, big law insider white collar kerfuffle, right, um, that's been making headlines.
[00:22:42] And so what I'm curious about is what do you want people to know about, like, the headlines that you might see or stories that get sensationalized perhaps before they make an opinion about something? Do you have anything to, like, kind of comment on that?
[00:22:57] Aaron Clark: One, that it, it's, it's so hard to resist forming an opinion based on a headline.
[00:23:04] Like, and we're, we're human, so we, we see things and we immediately stake a position even if we don't recognize it in our mind. What, what, what I wish folks could do was, one, maybe hold out or try to get a better understanding of what, what is the evidence underly- ... what do we know about the evidence underlying this opinion?
[00:23:22] Is it based on some admissions that this person has made? What are the facts that were used to put this case together? Do you know them yet? Can you leave some space for the possibility that you don't know everything, that there could be another side to it? One of the consistent themes that I tend to have in the, when I am, um, defending someone and it's going to trial is this idea confirmation bias.
[00:23:47] Like, as well-meaning as all of us are, we have this tendency as humans to stake an opinion early and then to filter everything that we receive through the lens of that opinion so that it confirms our opinion, and it takes an incredible amount of mental work to reverse your opinion once you have formed it.
[00:24:07] And that is often what we defense attorneys seem to be working against, is that people... Sometimes an entire investigation has been shaped because of one person that the investigator talked to early who they decided that they believed, and then they filtered everything through, uh, a narrative that fit what this person told them.
[00:24:27] So there's nothing magic necessarily that I'm saying there, but just leaving open the possibility that you might not know everything, that you, you could be wrong. Like, I would, I would love to be in that kind of a world, um, as, as a defense attorney who's trying to represent somebody who might have a very different narrative than what is in the headline.
[00:24:50] Megan Senese: I think you're also suggesting some critical thinking, which I think is, is important right now, particularly with, like, AI making everything so easy and, you know, you can have a synopsis and a summary in a couple seconds. And I mean, even just you talking about the confirmation bias, right? We started off with me being like, "White collar, bad," right?
[00:25:08] And so just even coming to the conversation in, with having some of that, right? Like, having some of the bias for, for myself, right? And so I think, I think that's really helpful framing, but it's also the same kind of framing that we use where someone has an an- this is not exactly the same, but Someone hasn't answered your pitch.
[00:25:27] I'm like, is it possible that they just didn't read it? Whereas we have clients sometimes that spiral out that be like, "They obviously hate me and I'm gonna get fired," right? Or, "They're never gonna hire me." I'm like, or is it possible that it's stuck in their spam? So it's the same type of thinking, like maybe there's another opportunity, maybe there's another way of thinking about this.
[00:25:46] Maybe they're, you know, the headlines are just really excited to drag these people, right, through, through the mud.
[00:25:52] Aaron Clark: And h- honestly, Megan, that, that is part of the problem of the system right now, too, in my mind. Something that I didn't really appreciate as a prosecutor, which is that the government usually gets the chance to get the headline at the beginning.
[00:26:04] The, the charging document, and then not just the charging document, but often a press release is gonna follow. And then the press release becomes the first thing that you find when you search somebody's name in Google, and it's, it's on purpose. But then the, the frustrating thing is if the government's made a mistake, and I've had multiple instances where the government itself has acknowledged, "Oh, we got this wrong," they still won't take down the press release.
[00:26:29] And, and the, so the press release is stuck there into perpetuity being one of the first things that you're gonna find on somebody. It might have a little caption on the top that says, uh, "This case has been dismissed." But when, when you just getting the Google search results, it just says, "Man accused of $15 million fraud."
[00:26:48] There was this story, I think his name was Raymond Donovan, who had been a, he was a figure in the Reagan administration who'd been accused of fraud and larceny. Lengthy case, ends up getting acquitted at trial and, you know, you're supposed to be really happy, but his, his remark is, "Okay, now where do I go to get my reputation back?"
[00:27:07] Jennifer Clark: Right. Oh.
[00:27:08] Aaron Clark: Because that, that, that, that kind of thing doesn't just change with a not guilty verdict. And, and some of those... I, I won't be dismissive at all of what it means to have a felony conviction and potentially do time, but there are still significant ramifications for just being accused of a crime and that getting put out into the public.
[00:27:28] Megan Senese: Right. And, and not just you, your whole family. I, I know that was something that you were talking to me about earlier in our prep call, right? That you had kind of not really given that a full, a full look all the time about it's not just the person, but it's like everyone else that that person touches and, and what happens to their family.
[00:27:47] Jennifer Clark: Mm- Devastating, yeah. I'm curious, Aryan, when you were AS- AUSA here, did, did you ever go out into the field? And if there's, like, any case that's really sticks with you, I don't know if you can talk about it or not, but just- ... um, just something kinda interesting about, like, being here in San Diego, being an AUSA, and like...
[00:28:10] Aaron Clark: Yeah, I did go out, uh, in the aftermath of one of these early morning takedowns of, of a bunch of folks that we were having arrested after a several months of a wiretap investigation. And, and after a home had been secured, I walked through one of them. And also, often when you're prepping for a trial in those cases, like I was often down at the border or at the scene where things happened and, and just trying to get a sense of the place where things happened, and taking some photographs and whatnot.
[00:28:39] I don't know that I've got anything exciting, like I didn't take down anybody myself. But I, I'm kind of a rule follower that way, Jen, um-
[00:28:45] Jennifer Clark: Yes. Mm. I'll, I, I b- I hear you. I'm a rule follower, too. I was just... You know, when you were talking earlier, it made me think of, this might land flat, but the, it was making me think of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Aryan.
[00:28:57] Oh, good. I don't know if... If you, I don't know if you're fam- but, but, like, this... It, it's, it's exactly what Aryan is talking about. It was a, a person on the cast, on the show, was accused of wire fraud. I don't know all the different charges that were brought against her, but sh- basically for conning people out of money, and the whole thing basically unfolded on TV.
[00:29:22] And, uh, like, the... I don't... Aryan, I don't know if you've heard about it or watched it or your wife
[00:29:27] Aaron Clark: knows it. Vaguely familiar, Jen. I didn't watch it, but I understand that, I think it was a charge out of, out of New York, um, that she was-
[00:29:33] Jennifer Clark: Yes, you're exactly right. Yeah ...
[00:29:34] Aaron Clark: she was charged.
[00:29:34] Jennifer Clark: But anyway, it's just really fascinating, like, when you- Wait, but
[00:29:37] Megan Senese: what happened?
[00:29:37] What happened to her?
[00:29:38] Jennifer Clark: Well, she was, well, she was found guilty, and she was thrown in jail, and she's been in jail. And, but literally, the federal agents, they were, all of these ladies were getting ready to go on some trip in a bus and drinking alcohol, all this stuff. And the federal agents came and, like, basically took her off the bus.
[00:29:56] I'm, I think. This is, like, a few years ago now. This was, like, season 10 or whatever. Um, but it was just fascinating to see it unfold in- Hm ... basically real time, and that they showed it. I mean, it's great for ratings, right? So- Good for
[00:30:10] Megan Senese: ratings. But-
[00:30:11] Jennifer Clark: Bad
[00:30:11] Megan Senese: for their life and their family.
[00:30:12] Jennifer Clark: Yeah. But anyway, she happened to be, she happened to plead guilty, I'm pretty sure.
[00:30:18] So, um, you know. The bad person got the punishment that was bestowed upon them. But anyway, but it's just this, this conversation with you, Aaron, has kind of made me think back to that show and, and like my, my very, very limited, ignorant understanding of white collar law. Well, I
[00:30:37] Megan Senese: think that's-
[00:30:38] Jennifer Clark: I learned it all from the Real Housewives.
[00:30:40] Megan Senese: I think that's a good... Like, I think that's, I think that's probably what most people might be thinking of, right? Like- Right ... um- Right. Right, right, right ... and so I think that's a fair assessment. So as we're, as we're starting to wrap up, what's one thing that you want people to know about, like, high-stakes environments or I'm like, one thing that people should know about, like not breaking the law.
[00:31:01] I don't know. What's one thing that you w- what's one thing you want people to know?
[00:31:04] Aaron Clark: Honestly, I think that, uh, i- just in terms of being a good human and a good lawyer, I, I f- I find that listening is the most, one, one of the most important things. Obviously, we want to be sharp and intelligent and... But being able to listen, to pick up on cues, if it's from a client, if it's from opposing counsel, if it's from a witness or it's from a judge, or even paying attention to a jury.
[00:31:29] Like, I find, I think S- Susan Cain mentioned this in her book Quiet, which is about, like, how we introverts are, are not just a second-class species. There are o- other species w- that we have some strengths, but among them is just sometimes we are, we are better at listening, and I find that i- if I'm ever persuasive or compelling, I want to think that's because I'm taking the time to listen to see what that person is asking or what they're saying, what they need, and, and trying to, to absorb that in and figuring out how to formulate my response.
[00:32:03] Jennifer Clark: Aryan, that's your superpower.
[00:32:05] Aaron Clark: I, I hope so. It... Please make that true.
[00:32:08] Jennifer Clark: Yeah. Yeah. I always like to ask this question, too, um, to people. If you, if you weren't a lawyer, it's like a fill-in-the-blank. If you weren't a lawyer doing what you do now, what would you do? What did you want to be when you, when you grew up?
[00:32:22] Aaron Clark: I wanted to be a professional baseball player.
[00:32:26] Jennifer Clark: Okay. I love
[00:32:28] Aaron Clark: that. That's smart. Yes. That didn't work out. That, that would've paid
[00:32:30] Megan Senese: for three kids-
[00:32:30] Aaron Clark: Yeah ...
[00:32:31] Megan Senese: through college.
[00:32:31] Aaron Clark: Yeah. I- if you would've talked to my kids, they wanted me... I, I love baking. I, I, I bake cookies, and I bake pizza. They're... I'm, I'm good at a couple of things, but my, my kids have always wanted me to open a pizza cookie restaurant, and some neighbors, too.
[00:32:48] Oh. I don't know how much that would pay for things, but it could be fun. Um,
[00:32:54] Jennifer Clark: it, I- We'll come. We'll show up. We'll be your customers.
[00:32:56] Megan Senese: I like pizza and cookies.
[00:32:58] Aaron Clark: Good, good. Yes. I've, I have been fine-tuning some recipes over the years. Again, it's just a handful of things, but I am really good at those handful of things.
[00:33:06] Megan Senese: Do you send it to clients? I mean, or referrals?
[00:33:09] Aaron Clark: I will tell you, back in December, uh, I've got some of my, I call them my favorite clients, but we had a, we had a hearing, and I showed up, as a Christmas gift, I had a, a batch of cookies that I'd made. There's this, these special cookies that, they're the Jacques Torres, it's a New York Times recipe that made famous.
[00:33:28] You have to get these special bittersweet disks, and the, the dough has to set overnight. And so there, it's an elaborate process that I like to think makes for a meaningful thing when I give them to somebody, even if it's lost on them.
[00:33:42] Megan Senese: Oh, my gosh. Oh. I love that. You should have a pizza party too. Like, there's so many things we could do with this.
[00:33:48] Yes.
[00:33:49] Aaron Clark: And we have to.
[00:33:51] Megan Senese: Well, thank you. I mean, I, I, the- we can, I can continue talking about all the great business development ideas with food, but we, we, we appreciate, we appreciate you getting on and, and sharing your story, and being terrified but doing it anyway, and-
[00:34:04] Jennifer Clark: And for being a, just an all around amazing human.
[00:34:07] I've just really enjoyed this conversation with you, and- Oh ... you've got a lot of superpowers between listening, and baking, and- ... being observant, and I just... You know, people should know that about you. Like-
[00:34:19] Megan Senese: People should know that about you ...
[00:34:20] Jennifer Clark: they, they, like, look he- look, hey, check him out, everybody. If you need a good white collar lawyer, Aaron.
[00:34:25] Aaron's the one.
[00:34:27] Aaron Clark: Thank you.
[00:34:31] Megan Senese: This episode is brought to you by Lateral Hub. Lateral Hub is the premier job board for top, large, midsize, and boutique law firms. Over seventy-five firms use their flat-free membership to promote job openings for laterals and judicial clerks as a transparent, targeted, affordable alternative to headhunters or LinkedIn. No hassle, no placement fees. If you are hiring in 2026, don't recruit like it's the Stone Age. Lateral hiring, welcome to modern times