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The Interface Podcast Crew chats with Shirelle Francis, Manager of Programs at Insight.
Interface is a podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. Interface is brought to you by EMPOWER at PROS. EMPOWER is dedicated to attracting, developing and retaining Black talent at PROS. PROS helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy.
Siara Barnes: Hey everybody. Welcome to interface the podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. My name is Sierra Barnes. I am one of your co-hosts. My other co-hosts are Maddie cakes, Matthew and Jenni plumber and interface is brought to you by empower at pros and power is an employee resource group that is dedicated to attracting, retaining and developing black talent at pros and pros helps people and companies outperform by enabling better selling in the digital space from our first round.
That was good. And today we have with us, Ms. Shirelle Francis and I am a terrible host because I did not look up with your official title.
Shirelle Francis: I am the manager of programs for our center of excellence, not normally known as a project management office, but, we serve as every business unit for our [00:01:00] organization. So is considered a center of excellence
Siara Barnes: and you are working for
Shirelle Francis: Insight, the purple pinkish hashtag better known as the business to business from your partner for all of your tech companies in the world.
Literally your, number one partner.
Siara Barnes: Okay, beautiful. Well, we like to start off each episode with our guests, giving us a bit of their origin story. Kind of what was your journey to where you are today?
Shirelle Francis: Well, first thank you all for having me. This is exciting. I think it's uncanny. My story is hilarious. I started
In 1998 in the basement of Seton hall university at the computer lab, back then we had Pell grants. I don't even know if they have them anymore. And I was on a work study and I was ear hustling and they were like, we need two more people. And I was like, yeah, I need that job. I [00:02:00] have to make up for lunch and stuff.
And literally that's how I started in IT. And I was in Seton hall pre law. So I was thinking all history classes, my minor was Asian studies. I learned how to speak and write Mandarin Chinese. And I was focused on going to law school, but I always had this little inkling for figuring things out. And ironically working in the computer lab, I do not like reading instructions and I did not like answering the phone for support.
So. It just was not a good fit. So the chair of the department, she was like, you don't really like giving me instructions over the phone, but you're really good in the broader sense. So that's how my if you will, IT career started. And so she referred me to a law firm who needed some IT and filing clerk support.
So I called my grandmother and I was like, I'm going to have to walk there [00:03:00] because I was 17, 16 when I graduated from high school. So I couldn't even take my car with me on campus. And she was like, oh, you can do it. And irony is, my grandmother had a 37 year career as a systems analyst Frigidaire, formerly white Western house.
And she was like, I went through harder times. We think it was so long story short. That is how my career started. I stayed in all these different odd jobs of somehow either file clerk. Or coordinating, but what I always know instinctively was I enjoyed putting complex situations together strategically. And so it worked out for me in the IT arena.
And at that time I wasn't thinking about project management, but I was always doing volunteer work for community organizations United way a couple of religious organizations and then the Rutgers soup kitchen. And I always ended up being the person who was up on the computer, either creating a database or creating a [00:04:00] budget, creating a plan.
And in the project management world, you know, the triangle people time and resources, right. That's what we're always managing. And so it became a very, very natural fit community. And so. That journey led me to defy law school after a couple of major courses. And I was like, oh, I think I'm pretty good at this.
And a friend called was like, we need some help at Johnson Johnson being from new Brunswick, New Jersey. I was at all. We all were there. Best opportunity ever. I went as a temp and converted it to a full-time employee. And was there as like a coordinator to even have project coordinators there. And then they moved that whole department and then went back to working for the city of New Brunswick for recruitment and retention program for children at risk and in marginalized income.
Where did I end up back in front of the computer? MS access, creating databases, figuring out [00:05:00] the summer recruitment program and who was going, where and how many kids were being hired from great venture. But I always ended back up in that arena. And I was like, okay, this is my passion. This is what drives me.
And even in non work-related areas, I ended up managing or leading a project in some sort. So I knew instinctively. That's what was really the,
Siara Barnes: I love that. So I know that you've been with insight for a good amount of time. How long have you been with insight and what has been your, your journey at insight?
Shirelle Francis: Oh, I've been there seven years and we always laugh because they always say it's been longer. I've been around them for 15 because we at Johnson, Johnson and MetLife, when I was in the PMO at those locations they were our premier partner. So I used to run the data center. What we call back then channels, those teams, the project insurances.
And at Johnson Johnson, I was in supply chain. We would [00:06:00] do all of our data center, all of our infrastructure. All of our supplies were coming through insight, no, as an end from a couple of others, but the lion's share was always through insights. So there were teammates that I have worked with for years and some of the directors from J and J ended up at insight.
So I've technically been there going on eight years. But haven't been around insight for nearly 14 years. My journey there, I came in after having my daughter, Zoe, she's now nine, and I had stepped away from work for about two months and we ended up in Austin for my husband's job. And a friend of mine was like, Hey, need help at Dell Dell children's medical center they were really constrain with building out the ICU and I couldn't take in my mind having this assignment for NICU, like babies are gonna be tied to these machines in this infrastructure.
And I was like, all right, fine. Took it. [00:07:00] And who, I ended up with working in the basement with the whole insight team. And so it came like full circle. So their director was like, well, finally, we get you. So his name, Mike Johnson, we started laughing and I was like, I'm here on project. I can't. And we wrapped up their project.
They'll went through some changes and I was like, okay, maybe this is a good time. And I was very sick, took the interview from the hospital bed and secured that role. And so if I would tell anyone anything, is be really secure in who you are and what you can deliver
because no one knew at that time, like I was in the hospital bed interviewing, but you know, resilience is a part of the journey and I knew like I was going to get better.
So let me just interview. And when they give me my start date, I'll be better. And I interviewed in the hospital and started on January 2nd. At the customer site to an irate [00:08:00] situation. And here we are eight years later and I started in Austin and then we relocated to Houston. We had an office in Houston and the career has just been progressive, but I went in knowing that I always wanted to move forward.
So I was, I've seen a senior project manager and always wanting to manage portfolios. So if I were talking to any person listening to this and thinking about how they want to grow, when you're in a tech company and it's fells based, you want to know the business. And so my goal was to be able to deliver a project for every offering that we sell, because I found that a lot of the staff PMs had their niche.
I only do data center. I only do O 365. I don't, that was never my situation I said for three years. I want to learn everything because technology moves so fast. And then really find my niche so that I'm the go-to for a certain. And I [00:09:00] accomplished that in two and a half years, every single offering I had delivered a project in.
And what ended up happening is I just became the, let's say the Judy Smith of the PMO. I'm the escalation cam. I've only had four projects in the eight years ever from like initiation to, I'm usually getting a project that is, hell arrived, everything has gone wrong. Or it's total stakeholder management, like come save the day.
And so the fixer , right? And so
Siara Barnes: the PMOs,
Shirelle Francis: that was good joke, like when that show was on, but I have to be honest and say, you have to be so careful when you get put into that box, because then you can easily get over-utilized. And you're exhausted. And so you have to know insurance, the balance is stressful and not to a detriment.
And I didn't want to be a Jack of all trades and master of none. Right? So when there [00:10:00] were certain portfolios that came, I would say, well, you know, try so-and-so cause she's really, really good. It's like multi-site projects like, you know, your retail stores and your McDonald's places that are franchise those I can do, but they are for your son.
And as my daughter got older and family dynamics change, I don't want to work over nights and weekends with cut over. So I had to learn how to be more selective, but the journey at insight has been really progressive. I was really, really focused on making sure I knew how to deliver so that when we came into customers during our mergers and acquisition, we would never have the gap in the PMO that there's a client we can't deliver for because we don't have this skillset.
So that was, that was a big deal.
Jennifer Plummer: So going back to undergrad where you were, you said you were pretty long study history and he just studies. Did you end up changing your major or you just through your [00:11:00] experience, you just kind of gravitated towards this career path?
Shirelle Francis: Not only did I, I'm not, I did not change it because I'm obsessed with history.
I was there until some of y'all remember that the intense fire we had at Seton hall that was in our freshmen building I was a sophomore at that time. And when I left, I think this is the beauty of my story. I had a $31,000 tuition bill, which only represented one and a half semester. I left and I could not return.
So one of the things I never lead with in my conversation with is that I did not finish my bachelor's. I'm just not finishing. In May I will have my bachelor's in organizational development, because what happened over time, I came out, Hep working, making more money, making more money, and then everything was about certification.
And I went to this PMI meeting and I'll never forget Keith Davis. He was like, [00:12:00] so projects nine months. If the project is longer than nine months, he's like, it's pretty much, it's a high, high possibility of a fail point. He was like, so you all need to get certified and stay relevant. And he did this valuation of your PMP versus a master's.
And he started to show that is your project management professional certification. So it's considered the gold standard for project managers in, in government based world public sector. Often you can have your master's, you can meet all the requirements. If you don't have a PMP, you're not even selected.
You're not even in the pool because it's a very rigorous, rigorous certification. So when he did the evaluation, I was like, oh, okay. Because I was so stuffed with the fact that I wasn't finished in college, but I was like, I don't want to go to law school. I still love history. I'm really good in this. What do I do?
So I've taken classes here and there. And then I just [00:13:00] got laser-focused and I was like every service that is relevant to the market and has a valuation. And I went from literally overnight finishing my certification to a $60,000 salary increase. I was able to walk into rooms and having the entire different conversation.
I walked into Texas with the New York salary and no one even blinked to keep it there. So the opportunities and I went my scrum master and the pro side OCM before it was really, really big. And I was like, this is going to be really big. You guys got to pay for it. So one of the things I really leveraged at my workplace was the certification dollars.
There's education budget. There are certifications and insight certifications, ARIDE. There's no limit. And I would share with anyone, find out what their company, if there's a limit or bandwidth on your certifications that you can pursue, they [00:14:00] covered the bootcamp, they covered the classes, they covered the exam, the renewal and membership to your local chapter.
I was like, okay, so let's leverage this. So by the time I did those four, I was like, do I still need a degree? And I still had this space of like, oh my God, Bachelor's required. And I started to really learn. That's not what really defines my, my true worth and what I bring to the table. It's really about starting and finishing.
And I have a total respect for education. My husband has an MBA and pursuing a doctorate, and now I'm finally finishing my bachelor's because I want to get my master's in data analytics. And it really has nothing to do to get my BS. It's the bigger picture I've always been like, okay, what's next? I'm like, I got do that to get to what's next.
So I tried to all be younger. I'm aspiring IT if you're not really sure when you're in college, [00:15:00] what you want to do instead of wasting that money going in debt and getting an education is not a waste of money, but just taking the classes, flunking going by the wayside, get your certification because those are constantly relevant to the industry.
So that, that is what happened for me. So when I left, after the fire is Seton hall I did not return
Siara Barnes: one of the, Shirelle and I have been friends for, oh God, I don't even know how long now has to be over 10 years. And one of the beautiful things about her story, when I learned that she had not finished her, bachelor's that having that conversation with her, because I grew up in very much, like in the mode of the, you finish high school, you finished college, then you go find a job and you go do this and you go do this.
And to see how successful she had been in this tech world. And she's like [00:16:00] little known secret. I haven't finished my bachelor's, but having the conversations to figure out what's really important. To get where you need to go and we're not pushing education to the side. That is still very important, but there's different avenues to get to where it is that you want to go.
And I, I love that part of your story.
Matthew: Jennifer always talks about like bringing different perspectives to like an organization or a team. How have you leveraged that history background into your current career?
Shirelle Francis: So when you say the history of my education,
Matthew: Like you're a history major.
Shirelle Francis: Oh God. So that has been Matthew.
That's such a great question. I am so obsessed with history. And so being in a male dominated often white male dominated room, I am able to have conversations sometimes that are unexpected, right? So if we are in a stakeholder meeting and [00:17:00] I am just seeing a lot of tension and I'm not saying compromise.
I will pull out a Winston Churchill moment and talk about the war. I will talk about what it looks like to have a plan to have to throw the plan out the window and make a new one. Right? I will talk about a system. It constructs in what that looks like. I will talk about the women of IBM, who were the computers.
One of which my grandmother was a working down in the basement. So having context about history helps me to really find a medium and be able to leverage that, especially in, in rooms that are often male dominated because it changes the temperature because sometimes I notice it's, what's not being said, that's really the agitator in the room.
And so I'll reference even IBM, they were the first company to start diversity task [00:18:00] force. And be phenomenally successful with it. And then AT T took on that entire formula, but then Johnson and Johnson is known for their cradle, right? It's part of the Harvard business review study. People can purchase the book if you've ever worked at Johnson Johnson, you know, this credo lived this credo.
So having the context and understanding history, it helps some time to just like give a little change to the tension. I've found that most useful intention in a room, especially when I'm dealing with a scope creep or needing to have the style revise, because the question always comes up. How did we get here?
And so then I'll reference, you know, gradual conversations and strategic planning. And so often I'll go to a Winston Churchill. He was known for strategic planning and how to observe the room. So that, that part of history has been very helpful. And it's also helped me to understand a lot of the behavior.[00:19:00]
Some of it is a systemic, some of the behavior is biased unintentionally, and I can see some of the dismissive, blatant, dismissive demeanors in leadership in rooms. And I'll think back to the conceptual pieces of history. And I'm like, I can see where this really stems from. I mean, being a Jersey girl coming into Texas was just crazy.
That whole team, they were like, so she goes a hundred miles an hour, how's this going to work? And it was like, we'll make it work.
Yeah.
Siara Barnes: I love that. So tell us a little bit about what your day-to-day looks, looks like. I know going a thousand miles a minute, but if you could, if you could break that down for us and our audience,
Shirelle Francis: I always say that now because someone else asked me that, you know I'm old school, about a couple of things.
I still have a to-do list. My red black for me, you [00:20:00] guys are young, but I still have my red, black notebook. Like I use this in a law firm forever and I still write so every day I always check my team's calendar. A big difference is I no longer have my corporate email account on my cell phone, on my iPad.
I, I, I really disconnected. I found it to be very unhealthy to start my mornings with what's coming up versus being connected to my world was happening around me and my family. Taking a minute. So that was a big change for me. So my day, now does start different I will check my notebook and see my notes from the previous day.
And then very typical is to check my forecast. It's funny because a lot of people here you say, you're IT like, can you do my website or I'm having like Aspen 80% of my time with poor testing, pipeline, architects and engineers adding somebody to my website. So I check [00:21:00] my forecast just to see if there've been any any dips from the SAP side or financial side.
So I can keep the pipeline really clear in front of me. And I right now have a lot of migrations going on at night. As you all know, because of supply chain, so where we've been really impacted in supply chain and hardware coming in late. So right now we have a lot of migrations infrastructure clients doing in migrations in the evening.
So I checked to see if the PMs had any escalation. I generally have my technical touch points with all of my team from 10 to 11:30, because no matter what time zone they're in, we can generally get the start of the morning synced up and then they can work the rest of the day. I found over time, having anything a little bit afternoon is a no go with the technical teammates.
And so I try not to have meetings back to back. That's when it will be hard. And then a good [00:22:00] portion of my day is reviewing stakeholder communication and what risk and issues I have open in the portfolio. And so for me right now, I carry three really big portfolios. So it's been very systematic for me to check the forecast, see if the overnight integrations or upgrades went well.
And then look at the stakeholder conversation for the big portion of my role is the forecast. Are we meeting the timeline and the dollars? A lot of people don't realize how that's associated. So I'm always checking with my guys and I don't have any females this time on my, on my projects. My last one I did, but I always check, are you still going to do 40 hours this week?
Are you still going to do 50 hours? Because it's no, those are billable. And in the bigger sense of my PNL, if it's off, my variance has to be so minimal because you get [00:23:00] slapped on the hand if it's too high, you come in and you make more than we can forecast it. And you get slapped on the hand if it's too low because you have your own business.
So my typical day is what's going on in my company. So I see each project as my own individual company. And there's a couple of that get a little more attention than the others, just because of their sensitive to the economy and to the population they serve. So now my, my typical day is a little more structured because I'm out of the pandemic of scurry that we were in with one of our major clients that was all the testing centers in the us. And that, that was a different look.
Siara Barnes: So I know most I'll go ahead, Jenny.
Jennifer Plummer: I think I still don't quite understand what you do. So maybe you could go to another level of what the kind of projects it is that you are, I'm assuming that you're coordinating a project plan, right? You have a budget and that's where the hours come in and blah, blah, blah.
But what [00:24:00] exactly is the team that you're working with and what are, what are they trying to accomplish?
Shirelle Francis: Perfect. So this is a really built one. So I'm able to talk about this more openly because where they're at price waters, PWC, they announced last month that they are going a hundred percent remote.
So I've had this portfolio since Q1, March, or April. Well, we were brought online to refresh their devices and get them out to the employees who were remote and to the new hire summer interns. Right? So I'm responsible for working with the client on the services delivery. So after ourselves team, so that was all the services and all the hardware and not come in and map out the timeline, the budget, the risks, the constraints, who the team will be and how we'll really execute the foul that they rolled out.
Right. So they come in good to go. Summer interns went well. We had a third-party [00:25:00] team who did all of the onsite refreshes of the devices, making sure they were up to par windows 10. You know, we have a third-party vendor have to manage who picks up all the devices. Another third party who has to drop off all the box applies.
Right? So there's all this coordinating and have a PM and a PC, but I'm responsible for making sure that all the pieces of the puzzle are together. Is they on time? Right. And within budget? Well, we wrapped it up really well and I'm like, oh, by the way, it's so great we want you to do another 3000 devices.
Okay. We get paid per device. So really big win for us, Hep working, repeated that. And then PWC announced everyone's remote. I remember picking up the phone, calling the senior VP. I was like, that's going to impact our project today because we were running a refresh. We deploy, we never had the population of who would [00:26:00] never come back.
We knew the population who was coming back wasn't in our count. Right. So I was like, okay, we need to meet needs. And I remember when the PMs was like, well, we haven't gotten the contract. I'm like, we're going to get the contract and running this project. I'm telling you, we need to start planning now. That was August.
There's been, we have had four additional styles. I just got a walk or something. We knew the contract before million dollars, because what happened is everyone now is going to be refreshing remotely. Everyone now is going to be redeployable. So what does it look like now? Okay. Shirelle has to work with the PWC client, the sales team and the delivery team and say, how do we now refresh all the PCs not impact their work productivity, make sure all of our third party vendors are covered on the COIs. Access to buildings that PWC doesn't own. Oh. And by the way, [00:27:00] PWC said everybody has to be vaccinated. So then I had to go through the list and say, okay, who's not staying on. I lost 32 resources like that.
Wow. Just like that 32 resources. They were like, yep. No vaccine effects though. But I was like, okay. So we have some buffer, you know, because I knew ahead. I was like, if they're letting everyone work remote, this entire portfolio is going to change. So when people say, you know, explain to me, what do you do?
I really have to execute. What's been sold in the south with the resources and the time and the money we have. Sorry.
Jennifer Plummer: PMP is no acronyms.
Shirelle Francis: Oh, sorry. A contract, just simple contract. Your statement of work, you know? So if, if you come to me and you say I have $20, I need you to install a computer at my desk.
I'm responsible for checking [00:28:00] and making sure the 20 hour level of effort was really accurate because I can look and say, Ooh, we're going to be 30 hours. Jenny is not going to be happy about me saying, I need a little more money because we need more time because your rationale was saying, you're the subject matter expert.
You didn't know that when you scope this out, how are we here? And so it's, you know, managing that, but I'm services. And so the sales team, they work with another group to create styles and contracts. I used to do that. So by the time I receive it, it's already been signed when the notorious for combing through and I will red flag, like this is, this is off, this is off going to work. They're like, sure. I'll just, just drive it. So I'm really good at getting additional pipeline. That is my niche. Millions, I'm proud of that. Millions of dollars. But it's a lot of work because you have to rationalize to the [00:29:00] client, how did we get here? You know? And that's, that's always, the conversation is interesting, so that helps. Okay. I'm to simplify, explain that to people.
Siara Barnes: So, Shirelle, you know, we talked a little bit about this earlier in your origin story, but do you have any additional advice for people who want to do something similar to you in any parts of your journey or kind of where you are today? What would be your advice to them?
Shirelle Francis: First of all, definitely have a mentor. You have to have someone who's going to give you feedback. Who's going to listen intently and be honest with you and really allow you to bounce things off. The second is to identify a sponsor. And I should say that doesn't always come easily because a sponsors use someone much more senior, but who has a [00:30:00] vested interest in your success?
They will put skin in the game for you. And I've been blessed. I have two amazing sponsors and a good sponsor will even tell you when it's time to pivot, you know, and look other places, other arenas, other areas but they will always make room for you at the table or encourage you to create a table if one's not there.
So that's really important. Education, education by, I mean, by being relevant, like in this IT, this tech world it's busy, it can get noisy. There's a lot going on. It's constantly changing. But if you know what you want to do sometimes that makes it easier with the education certifications, our formal education, what path you want to go down.
And if you're still trying to kind of fill your way, I would suggest there are a couple of organizations, but blacks and technology, and you do not have to be black to join, but I'm [00:31:00] a big endorsement and support of bits of the founder, Greg Greenleaf. He is my teammate and he's done an amazing job chapters all over the world now.
So that's a really great way. And then there's a couple of other associations with women in technology. And then they're popping up everywhere, but I think that's another way to really educate yourself because they bring programs to allow the members and it gives you a really good pathway, like bit I've gotten sponsor from Google, from Intel to take sort of.
And they're free. Like there backed then paid by the partners, but the members get to access all this education and search for free and to be a member it's free. Right. So and, and surround yourself with those who are doing what you want to do. And I think that's been a really big piece for me and Sierra knows me.
I have never been afraid to ask anyone anything. You know, I walked up to my CEO five years ago. Why isn't there a women's group here? Why, [00:32:00] why don't we have a women's TRG group? Who's like, you know I'm sorry, your name again. I'm like, Shirelle Francis. I'm like, you know, there's a lot I could say about this conference we're in, I'm the only tech female of color here. And we're up there talking about how that person was. I'm like, I'm really conflicted that has led into an amazing unique relationship. And I worked in the background with my CEO for years. He brought to the public point that I worked with him in the background.
Cause I, I you cherish those relationships of sponsorship at that level. And not because they're above us or better, but they have something to offer us. And so you want to cherish it. And so you have to be okay with speaking to those at any level. But I will say for as talkative and as engaging as social as I am, when I'm in certain rooms, I'm often the last to speak.
So I would leave with [00:33:00] anyone. My grandfather always said he who asks the questions, weaves the conversation. And I asked a lot of questions after I've heard the rounds of the room. Right. So, so that, that has helped me. So don't be afraid to ask questions because it will lead you into some amazing places.
Like when I really look back at what I've done, like it's amazing. And I have a lot that I'm still aspiring for, but I have never been afraid to ask the very simple, a mentor, a sponsor, relevant education and ask questions after listening intent. That's what I would suggest.
Jennifer Plummer: Yeah, sponsorship is a big piece that I think I learned pretty late and that's something I tell people now too, because I lead a team and I say, you know, I know you're great, but you need to make sure some other people know last as well, because you know, I'm just the first line, someone else, you [00:34:00] know, other people need to understand what you've done and be able to advocate for the career path that you want so that's a big
piece of having a successful career.
Siara Barnes: I'm going to plug Matthew again for his his pros talk that he's going to be giving in December about asking better questions. I'm terrible at asking questions. So I'm very interested in his, his talk and I'm, we talked also about me being a wallflower, but I'm coming out of my shell a lot more.
And a lot of people know who I am. So I get forced to talk often.
So Shirelle, what programs would you suggest or, you know, initiatives that companies should undertake to increase black talent in technology?
Shirelle Francis: So this is my baby. This is my love, you know, after, as Louie Isabella Lee Francis you know, this is, this is my world. First and foremost, if recruitment [00:35:00] retention is not a part of a mission statement for any company, TRG, especially of color it's on these communities.
And I would be very paused. So the first thing I would say is make sure that's in your mission statement and it is for pros. So that's great. So from a program perspective, and I mentioned this earlier I think sometimes companies are sensitive to using the word task. So you can find whatever, send them at a margin you want to use, but the task force, the task force has an objective.
They're held accountable to identifying the problem, putting quantifiable measures around it, setting goals and accountability. One of the things that really worked well for me with my current CEO can land that cause that I am data obsessed. So when I scheduled to meet with him, I knew it was a 30 minute meeting.
I'm like, I'm going to [00:36:00] do 18 minutes, max. So we can have some room to go back and forth. I presented data. So companies need to look at programs that really are based on having a task force. However they want to name it. This is what I would suggest so that there's some accountability. We have to be patient because the needle doesn't move fast, but you can have actionable results quick.
If you're really focused, I would encourage companies to immerse themselves in the communities where the talent resides. Often notice that companies want the talent to come to them. And now we're in this, you know, little bit hybrid, not complete hybrid of a world. And so we have to immerse ourselves with the talent.
So we have to go to the schools via virtually. We have to reach out to the organizations and I think make ourselves prominent to them. Like, you know, you, I [00:37:00] remember you would go to a college fair college day. And why was there, you knew the EOI team because they showed up at certain campuses and you weren't even thinking about a different employees.
I can say about pros. Pros is very active in their recruitment and the internship program. You know, I try to talk to my hard head nephew like, Hey, pay attention. So programs where you can immerse yourselves in that community. Partnerships, right? This is a technology company. You guys get it? I think if we think more partner alliances, not just for the GP and bottom line, but I think if we looked at TRG and said, okay, how can we make successful partner alliances?
That's a real way that I think companies can build better programs without always reinventing the wheel. And then you have resources who are already interested. You're not always soliciting because that's their area [00:38:00] of interest. So partnerships, taskforce, and immersing themselves where the talent is actually in community.
Siara Barnes: I love that. The partnerships is one thing that I don't think that we're heavily doing, but we just recently got a new head of talent and he's doing a lot of work right now. It's a really laser-focused in on diversity recruiting.
So we're excited about all the things that he's going to be doing in that space. So with that, we're at the heat check, this week's episode.
So Shirelle as our guest today would you like to share your heat check? So heat check is, you know, something that you found in, in, you know, the news or something exciting in the tech world that you want to share with our audience. [00:39:00]
Shirelle Francis: Oh, I was torn between two things. I think it's pretty, pretty, pretty insane that we are still hearing about a pipeline problem with black town.
I have to say that's my heat check. I mean, I wanted to bring something fun. I was thinking about you can purchase art Paris Hilton just bought like this art she did. Her dog hurt you. Wild wise, we're up $2 million and you can do it with crypto currency. No, let me, let me, this is who I am. We are still hearing a quote about a pipeline issue.
The heat check for me is who is believing the lie. The talent is abundant. The talent is overflowing. And if we just look at HBCU alone, have we seen nearly $350 million in grants [00:40:00] for outdoor wireless program. I'm in infrastructure. What does that mean? A company like myself Insight, we can go to HBCU, especially those in rural areas ensure that their infrastructure, their wifi or internet, their services is up to par and they not have to pay a dime.
So just that alone is exciting. And how does this correlate? There's no pipeline problem. We have staff, we have students, we have interns who can come and be a part of a program as such. So the heat check for me is stop talking about a pipeline problem. I think what we have is actually a resource problem with people dedicating time.
To actually seek out the town.
Jennifer Plummer: Like you said, that you got to go to where the talent is not expect the talent to come to [00:41:00] you.
Shirelle Francis: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, systemically have, have we created a construct that's been always inviting. Hello. Right. So I'll stop there might have to edit all that out. You guys can,
Siara Barnes: we don't want to know it here.
Shirelle Francis: Yeah. I mean it's yeah. I mean, so I, I couldn't believe it was another article just put out October 18th, I'm like, and I'm looking at wired and I was just like, there's so much money. But those of us in these places that have the opportunities, I think it's important for us to build a relationship and to be the bridge because someone down at miles college may not know that they are entitled to $1.2 million worth of infrastructure rebuild.
They may hear that and say, we don't have anyone here to do it. You don't meet anyone. You're entitled to it in a part of that contract, you sparse out all the resources and the third party that you need, so they can come and deploy this so that then you can be a [00:42:00] Institute that can proudly say we're modern, we're up to date.
We can provide such and such and such and become attractive. So I, it's still amazing to me. And I hope one day it's a new administration this is not political. It's just that those who have made the funds available through legislation, I hope that it's publicized strategically enough and how to access it so that educators and administrators don't feel as out of their reach or bearing down and bureaucracy that you can't deliver student population.
Siara Barnes: Beautiful. Who wants to go next? I can go if neither one of you want to go,
Jennifer Plummer: go ahead.
Siara Barnes: So my heat check this week is I've, I don't know if you all have seen, but will Smith is coming out with he's releasing a book. I don't know if we want to call him the autobiography or what have you, but he and his wife have been in the news recently with a lot of, you know, [00:43:00] revealing things about their relationship and their lives.
And the most recent headline was him, you know, promoting his book and him talking about this book will reveal who the real will Smith is. And, you know, celebrities from the nineties, when you think about will Smith and the Tom Cruises and the Tom Hanks and all those types of people, it was always this mystique about them.
You know, you didn't really know a lot about their personal lives and this, that, and the other. And I think even for someone on Will Smith level, who's multimillionaire I'm Ogle in a sense, it's still basically code switching out in the world. And that's not something that we've really talked about on the podcast, but I'm interested in, you know, this push for diversity in the workplace and being able to bring your [00:44:00] whole selves to work.
Do you still find yourself code switching and not really being fully yourself when you're at work, even with, you know, the talk about being authentic and we want to really know who you are and that cliche of bringing your whole self to work. Yeah. You still put on a persona.
Jennifer Plummer: Well, we talked about our other personas because we're all introverts here as hosts. So. So there's levels, right? So there's, there's definitely my, okay. I can't even the corner. I want to be Jenny and I want to be productive and I have a team to lead and I have to lead by example or I have to advocate. So there's that level where sometimes I'm like, ah, I don't have the energy to do this, but also [00:45:00] I'm always in fear of being a loud black woman, because my personality, it is, it's usually pretty like what's going on. And I remember even having conversations with my manager at the time, kind of like I think maybe I was a top, you know, I don't want people thinking too emotional about the or, you know, I, you know, I do really care. I want to make sure that I care at a professional way. And he kind of had to kind of tell me, well, no, I think you're being authentic to yourself.
He did kind of support me in that, but it's still kind of always in the back of my head that I need to, you know, give my day job version of that authentic self so that that's always there.
Siara Barnes: What about you Mattie?
Matthew: Work-wise like we've mentioned before, I'm kind of like the sit back and not really put myself out there, but I can speak to like trying to get a job and like interviewing and because I have tattoos, that was something that I would [00:46:00] cover up and not just because I'm like a tattoos, a thing, but just more of like the perception of what I, what I was projecting really.
What they might perceive as me like being black and having tattoos. And also just like messy hair. It's just those little things that I think like when you, when you take them individually, it's, it's not that big of a deal, but like, as a person, like thinking of having to think of those things through, and not just because it's like, oh, this is bad, but it's just like, oh, like my hair doesn't naturally fall while I have to do something with it, you know?
And so just having to like really put thought into that stuff, it, it's not really like a good feeling.
Siara Barnes: Going back to you Shirelle
Shirelle Francis: on the coast, which was always a little trivial for me because I'm UCF. I, I rather be quiet than [00:47:00] switch. My grandfather raised me. He always told me to know the room I'm in.
So I'm really cognizant. And I had to like take inventory of my, maybe that was coast, which we just didn't know that was the terminology. And so right when I look back, I'm like, I, I do it and I do it very well. I do it very well, but as I've gotten older, one of the things I don't do is mute myself, right.
It's like, I won't solicit, but I won't mute myself. So that's why, especially in certain moods doing some strategic planning and road mapping with things sweet. I made a point not to solicit because I was not going to mute myself. So that's kind of been my way to counter. Because it isn't and I think lose yourself [00:48:00] somewhere in there.
It is absolutely exhausting. And I do not, I do not have energy any more. I'm very unapologetic. And I did it more often than I realized, but my counselor was, oh, look professional where the vest be, this and that, but you're not going to lose your opinion in mind, hindsight. I was like, I was, but no, I just always say, are you asking me, or am I here to listen
different?
listen. I'm like, okay, I'm going to be your sounding board. And that, that helps me avoid to have to do that.
Siara Barnes: I think for myself, I definitely used the mute myself. I would always have an opinion, but I, I would always fear it's going to be too harsh. It's not going to come out the right way. I've even gotten feedback that, you know, when you speak up in a conversation, one, everybody shut [00:49:00] up and listen, and second, it can come off, you know, really brash because I don't do fluff very well.
And when I do give my opinion, it's very straightforward and unapologetic. But I think that's also the more and more than I speak up. It has helped it's benefit me in so many ways, because a lot of people may not be thinking about. There's something in the way that I am, or I am a part of, you know, I can fill in the gap for their blind spot for something that they weren't thinking about.
And so that's encouraged me to show up and sometimes I'm just too tired to put on a face. I got too much going on. You're going to get it how I'm never gonna, you know, intentionally be rude. And I'm always, you know, I've said something wrong or I offended you. I apologize. But I also meant what I said, [00:50:00] you know, and I think it also comes with age and as you get further into your career it becomes a little bit easier to be more of yourself in these, in these conversations in these rooms. But I also think that this generation coming behind us are not going to struggle with it as much as we did.
Shirelle Francis: Nope. We we just had the conversations Siara. We just had that conversation with our second sponsor yesterday. And we were like, there's a whole army, somebody behind us. And it matters to them about what matters to the company, where we put our money, where we align our value system. They are holding us accountable in a different way, and they are not taking excuses.
They are not crazy about going into debt to live the American dream. So their whole path is like, non-traditional a lot of us work because we have built that is [00:51:00] not what's coming behind us. It it's a different oh, the CDO at hard rock. And she was saying, the baby boomers are starting to retire. And then these and X are coming to.
We're going to see more compassionate leadership, but probably tired because it does not fit.
Siara Barnes: Awesome. Well, Shirelle, thank you so much for taking time to come and chat with us and our audience this week.
Jennifer Plummer: So we don't get to do any checks.
Siara Barnes: We got, I got caught up. I got caught up my bed.
Jennifer Plummer: Very good. And I feel good. Think that was a really good conversation. Might've
Siara Barnes: Jenny is going to fire me from lead hosting duties.
Jennifer Plummer: I still, yeah, it's still like a chance to
Siara Barnes: Jenni or [00:52:00] Matthew please come with your heat check.
Jennifer Plummer: You want the rock paper scissors for the next one?
Matthew: I mean, I go first or last.
Jennifer Plummer: Oh, you get to pick, you get to pick because you won. So you get to pick.
Matthew: All right, I'll go first. You guys use it Instagram? Yes. Okay. I don't use Instagram. I'm just going to continue to bring that up. That I don't use social media, but I read that they're doing a, take a break from Instagram. It's an opt-in opt-in system. And it's currently, if you're in the test phase that you get to use this. And so you set a specific time and a roles of like 10, 20 minutes or 30 minutes, and then a notification will pop up. And I guess it suggests several ways for you to like, not use Instagram. So like take a few breaths, write down what you're thinking, listen to your favorite song or do something on your to-do list, which I like.
And then apparently it's going to be more widely available in December. I'm on the bandwagon that it's part of Meadows rebrand themselves, but I still think it's a really good [00:53:00] idea,
Jennifer Plummer: I'm not on Instagram all the time. So I don't really need a break from it.
Siara Barnes: Instagram is my social media drug of choice.
Jennifer Plummer: No, I think if, if there's a tick tock, that's the one I get sucked into. Cause you can't exit out of it. You, you hit that back button and then my kids know the video. Here's another video. It's been a video and like 30 minutes later, you're like, I must still look at it. They definitely need a feature that helps me disconnect. But I, I think a lot of people do use Instagram all the time too. So I'm sure that might help them.
Matthew: Doom scrolling.
Siara Barnes: Did you introduce us to that term before Mattie?
Matthew: I'm just going to claim that I did. Okay.
Siara Barnes: Yeah, we'll take it.
Shirelle Francis: I don't know this whole ask. I still struggle internally because of all the data I'm big into data and I just have a problem with how much of my life they have access to [00:54:00] proprietary rights to. And I am still struggling in a really big way with that. So even with my own website, everything, I'm trying to get everything, all my traffic channel to my website and I'm building my own app so that I can step away from that as much as possible.
So that what is on my gram on Facebook is really non, not non issue for me. No, I don't have another way to stay right now. So they hear that they're doing the, take a pause to me. It's like, they're kind of, don't go to the. Don't want to means w w like it's another dynamic of them almost controlling the facets of your life.
Cause now you're like this little. So review calm at like, really you're telling me when to stop being on here now, too. And the class will come back, like it's all data-driven and it's, it's just really interesting. It makes me feel [00:55:00] like, remember 1984 big brothers watching, like I just had those moments with this.
Jennifer Plummer: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll do mine real quick. This is this is a diesel and article title what do engineers think about technical debt? So if you think about technical debt, it's some aspect of the code you're working on, which is inefficient and you know, it's inefficient, but you don't have time to go make it better because you're too busy working on the new thing. So think about I'm painting my house and all I have is one paint brush. I don't have, I know there's an invention out there that's a roller that that'll make it go faster, but I just don't have time to go to roller. So I'm painting my whole house with this paint brush and that's frustrating.
So that's what this article is talking about. And with the, you know, everyone's talking about the great resignation, you know, people are like, you know you know, you know, they're just basically a lot of movement going on you know, in the positions now. And so I guess this [00:56:00] is just kind of saying, this could be one of the reasons people are leaving because they're saying 52% of engineers believe that technical debt negatively impacts the team morale.
So, so to the point where it's like, you know, all I have is a paint brush and I know, you know, there's better ways to do this, but I never get the chance to do that. And it's impacting me personally and my mood. So the way to fix it, as, you know, maybe I need to find something else to do. So I think that's something to be aware of.
I know we try to in different companies combat some different ways. Article is saying you can either just kind of say, I'm going to dedicate the next, if you're an agile, it's like, all right, I'm going to dedicate the next two sprints or something to just tackling the next. So it's, we're doing something about it. , what I seen is that not really. It doesn't really work out the way you want it to, you kind of have to tie in, okay, you want these new features [00:57:00] before we can go do those new features. We've got to clean these things up and kind of make it part of when you're talking about a project plan. Right.
From a development side, we have an execution plan to deliver features. So we put time in to say, okay, well, if this feature, you know, the actual bits about the feature, the requirements that you might take four weeks, but we need another week to, you know, fix this other thing so that everything will be easier to manage going forward.
And, and building that in. I think that's probably the better way to do it. And if you have a you know, I've got an architect on my team and I have tech leads on my team that will tell me, they're like, you know, this part needs more, please, before we do this, can we build in time to do that? And I'm always listening to them to try and build that in whenever we can.
So if tech debt is an issue on any of your teams, please, you know, take some time and chip, you know, it's, you [00:58:00] know, you can't boil the ocean, but you, you can, can tackle, you can figure out the things that are kind of higher priority and build that in, in your roadmap or your project plan.
Siara Barnes: I think that's good advice just across organizations, period, any team that you're on before you take on this big, huge initiative, you know, make sure that you didn't take the time to clean up what needs to be cleaned up before adding more dirt on it.
Jennifer Plummer: Let's talk about, my son wanted me to put the Christmas tree out and I was like, I know that to do that I gotta undo a lot of stuff. So it's like, I'm not ready for that. I got the house here before I pull up.
Shirelle Francis: That's really good. If you can send me some of that article because I'm dealing with some stuff with my Azure stack team, and they're not using that agile or scrum methodology, but we have a part of our practice that does not work with.
Actually, my culture would be API, apple professionals [00:59:00] ERG and lb. And to have that conversation because I hear frustration a lot. I will put a lot of the senior architect and then be like, cool scope. Know, I'm like, I know you want to fix it like Talenti, but you know, this part of practice is supposed to live a waterfall.
My other group, we deliver and we have our sprints of standards, but just the mere frustration. And then there was a couple of people that, you know, and all the time you don't see them and you realize, oh, you know, start thinking in one night. Cause you get that feedback that certain levels is fashion with my architects.
But now I'm like, first of all, you know, I think you are bitter, but because it's that risk, we work, you know, like, okay, really like this, this, this is not, I'd rather go to the client and say, you know what, miss step one of course correct in results will be much better. That's the beauty of France and in the scrum methodology waterfall, are we going over [01:00:00] budget yet? I was going to be on time and you're not all that other stuff. So that's a really good art.
Yeah,
Siara Barnes: I can wrap up the episode, my sincere apologies to my cohost, my bad. So Shirelle tell people where they can find you out in, on the interwebs if they want to connect with you.
Shirelle Francis: Yes. So I do have my own website is my namesake, frances.com. Of course LinkedIn, and then I am on an IG and I am in clubhouse.
Now. I don't tow around there a lot is very specific. There's one really nice group of ladies I'm with, and then I'm in there for the black thing if you've ever heard of them. So you can definitely find me on clubhouse, but that's a group that I think if you get a chance to check out Richard Olson done an amazing job but those are my ways, the best.
LinkedIn and my website is definitely for [01:01:00] speaking engagements, BI platforms and others of sorts. And I'm on Twitter. I don't tweet as often or as much, but when I do it's for purpose though, I would say, follow me on Twitter. That's it. That's my world. Thank you. Thank you guys for having me
Siara Barnes: Thank you for joining us and to our listeners.
We hope that you go out and continue the conversation that we started here, and we will see you next week. Bye.