Why Does Art Create Immersive Experiences? with Dr. Harri Mäcklin

PJ is joined by phenomenology professor Dr. Harri Mäcklin. Together, they discuss art, being in the world and what is so great about phenomenology as a discipline.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. Harri Mäcklin of the University of Helsinki discuss the immersive power of art, it's ability to widen our understanding of the possible, and more deeply connect us to others. 

For a deep dive into Dr. Harri Mäcklin's work, check out these works: 
When art transports us, where do we actually go? 👉 https://psyche.co/ideas/when-art-transports-us-where-do-we-actually-go
"Phenomenology of the Image" in The Palgrave Handbook of Image Studies 👉 https://amzn.to/3CdnvNP

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: Hello. welcome to chasing leviathan. I'm your host. P. ▁j. weary and I'm here

[pj_wehry]: today with Uh doctor Harry, Macklin. He is a post doctoral researcher of

[pj_wehry]: aesthetics at the University of Helsinki in Finland. His researching interests

[pj_wehry]: include phenomenology, hermudics, and the history of aesthetics. He is especially

[pj_wehry]: interested in the nature aesthetic experience and all it variations, Uh, Harry.

[pj_wehry]: Wonderful to have you today.

[harri]: Thank you so much for inviting me, so I'm so excited.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, really excited. Talk today, and kind of you know you, you say in your bio.

[pj_wehry]: You're especially interested in the nature of aesthetic experience. That's kind of

[pj_wehry]: we're talking about today is uh. Why is art immersive? Why does it create an

[pj_wehry]: immersive experience? And what does that even mean? And uh, you know why is it

[pj_wehry]: important? and I? I think everyone has some kind of fundamental grasp with us

[pj_wehry]: right, like uh, we all experience art in these kind of ways, but we don't. We, we

[pj_wehry]: experience it naively and so really excit to hear uh, what you have to say about

[pj_wehry]: it today. Well, let's first start about you. uh, uh. how did you get interested in

[pj_wehry]: this topic? Um, What drove you into this career path?

[harri]: Yeah, thanks. That's That's a long story,

[harri]: so so please bear with me.

[pj_wehry]: Oh, that's fine. Yeah,

[harri]: It goes all the way back to to my childhood, so

[harri]: I was lucky enough to to grow in an environment where where I was Uh, I was exposed

[harri]: to to a lot of art from from quite an early age. And uh, and some of some of my most

[harri]: memorable childhood experiences had to do with with art, And I have this vague memory

[harri]: that this this uh question popped uh into my head quite early on, Namely this

[harri]: question about why. Why is it that sometimes art has this uh, very very intense

[harri]: effect on us. Of course I wasn't able to to formulate that in any any sophisticated

[harri]: way, but by anyway, it's a sort of it sort of started started growing uh, inside my

[harri]: mind, Um, and um.

[harri]: uh. Then I also got interested in philosophy from from quite quite an early age. I. I

[harri]: think I was in the in the tender age of thirteen or fourteen or something when I

[harri]: first started reading Freud, uh, and uh, And that was a a bit like a gateway drug.

[harri]: You know, uh it. it didn't. It didn't take me too long to to start doing doing harder

[harri]: substances like German idealism, and uh,

[harri]: and uh, I realized what. my. that. my.

[harri]: I realized that my interest in in art was Uh.

[harri]: it was uh. It was theoretical in nature. The kind of questions that I was uh asking

[harri]: about art,

[harri]: Uh, were such that that, uh, I. I realized that that I don't. I don't want to become

[pj_wehry]: hm, h,

[harri]: an artist and I don't think I had the talent to be an artist. Uh, but, but I was

[harri]: definitely interested in in art.

[harri]: so uh, so then I ended up uh, studying aesthetics, Uh, at the University of of Uh,

[harri]: Helsinki,

[harri]: and Um,

[harri]: and uh, of course we, we dealt with all sorts of theories of of aesthetic experience.

[harri]: But but uh, I always had this

[harri]: this weird feeling that that something's missing That theories that we are talking

[harri]: about the don't really address the kinds of experiences that I've had and they don't

[harri]: address the kind of questions that I have.

[harri]: Um, but, but at the time I didn't do too much with I was. I was concerned with other

[harri]: other things initially. and uh, so I do my bachelor's the Uh, bachelor's degree and

[harri]: master's degree. and Uh, I start doing my my doctoral dissertation,

[harri]: and uh, uh. The initial topic Uh was on on the ontology of art. You know, Uh. The

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: hm', say

[harri]: question

[harri]: question of of uh, how do artworks exist? What kind of entities are artworks And uh,

[harri]: I had been doing that for for a a year or so or something like that. Mm, when I, when

[harri]: I had a trip to Paris, there was the seminar I was I was attending and um, uh, I had

[harri]: some free time on my hands one day and uh, I decided to go to the luthho, uh, and uh,

[harri]: and I got this stupid idea that I want to see how how long it takes me to to uh, walk

[harri]: through every room, Uh, in the museum.

[harri]: Ah, so I go there very very rarely, and uh, and and I walk, and I walk, and I walk,

[harri]: and I, w.

[harri]: Why? and and then finally I end up in the in the uh galleries of of Uh,

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[harri]: French painting,

[harri]: And uh, and this one particular painting Uh, catches my eye, Uh, it was um, uh,

[harri]: Theodore Gary, course painting The The Raft of the Meder, Uh, from eighteen,

[harri]: nineteen, or or thereabos, You know. It's this, Uh. it's this uh, iconic painting,

[harri]: Uh, which uh depict the scene uh on on a stormy ocean, or there is this ramshackle

[harri]: raft barely floating

[harri]: on the waves, and uh, and and there are dead bodies all around and people dying. and

[harri]: uh and uh, and the uh survivors are sort of frantically waving uh towards the horizon

[harri]: where you can just barely

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: see a a shiep, uh, approaching them. And uh, and there was just something about that

[harri]: painting that that just sort of sort of uh, locked me in, or sort of pulled me

[harri]: towards it. and uh, and and I just kept staring at it and staring. and I, I just sort

[harri]: of, I don't know how long I. i. I stared at it. It could have been five minutes or

[harri]: half an hour. I don't know, and uh, and I just should have lost all my my sense of of

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: of of surroundings,

[harri]: and uh, and uh,

[harri]: and yeah, then then finally I, I sort of managed managed to tear myself away uh, from

[harri]: from the painting, and uh, and and continue my my herculan labor, uh of going through

[harri]: the museum And I think it took me like eight hours or something uh to to go through

[harri]: the whole place, But, but, but, but the rest of of of the tour I just couldn't stop

[harri]: thinking about the painting. Uh, like what on earth happened? Why was it that? That

[harri]: of all the artworks in the Louva, it was that particular painting that that captured

[harri]: me,

[harri]: And and I realized that, even even though I'm I'm a doctoral student in aesthetics, I

[harri]: didn't know what happened. I, I didn't have the tools. Ah, to to to. Oh, I

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[harri]: didn't have a ready answer. And of course, what was really frustrating? So when I got

[harri]: back home, uh, I started to collect some literature and go through it. And and I

[harri]: realized that Strangely enough, even though aesthetic uh experiences is one of the

[harri]: biggest topics in in in philosophical aesthetics, I really couldn't find

[harri]: Uh

[harri]: the kind of

[harri]: account that

[harri]: would would uh, capture that experience. I mean, I could find something, but, but

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[harri]: surprisingly little,

[harri]: so I sort of decided that maybe I should pitch this onthology thing and and

[harri]: stuffed, looking for answers. So that's how I got interested in

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[harri]: in immersion, so I think it was a long time coming. It was sort of bining in my head,

[harri]: but it took this this one one particular experience for

[harri]: for for me to to sort of

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[harri]: start doing it all.

[pj_wehry]: to specialize. Yeah, the um. I, just for our our audience, because it we

[pj_wehry]: mentioned. Uh, we talked about earlier, but I actually found you because my mother

[pj_wehry]: in law sent Uh, your article in Psyche, which will put in the description below

[pj_wehry]: on. Uh, when art transports us, Where do we actually go Which I, I love that

[pj_wehry]: description of it too. Um. What's really? I?

[harri]: Yeah, yeah, you have to than you have to thank your mother in law.

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. she probably will listen to this. I'll definitely

[pj_wehry]: send to and be like. Um,

[pj_wehry]: The this happy accident is your fault. The. uh,

[pj_wehry]: so I, um, even as you're talking about this, it's interesting. I haven't had as

[pj_wehry]: many immersive experiences with art, but I think a lot of times my experience of

[pj_wehry]: art because I grew up in a very rural location.

[pj_wehry]: Uh, was

[pj_wehry]: um,

[pj_wehry]: reproduction on a screen, and it really doesn't do justice. So what? When I went

[pj_wehry]: and did my

[harri]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: master's Uh, I did it in Chicago, Um, or just outside of Chicago, And so you know,

[pj_wehry]: I was able to go to the art museum in Chicago, which of course has like great,

[pj_wehry]: y. There's no substitute for seeing a painting in person right, like? Um,

[harri]: yeah, yeah's right.

[pj_wehry]: and so I? I. I'm just curious. I. how much of that uniqueness plays into this And

[pj_wehry]: what would you say to people? Um, is it is important about

[pj_wehry]: first hand seeing art versus through this kind? of. I mean, most people's

[pj_wehry]: experience of art when they like. If we look at the wrath of the Doa like that's

[pj_wehry]: not going to give the same.

[harri]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: I don't think anyone can look at their computer screen and be like last for an

[pj_wehry]: hour, right,

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. that's right. I mean, I mean, yeah, uh, yeah,

[harri]: sure, I mean that particular painting

[pj_wehry]: right,

[harri]: it's it's huge. It's like many meters or or feats. uh, uh, it's it's It's a huge

[harri]: thing. It sort of swallows you. If if you go close to it and it just doesn it. If you

[harri]: look at it from A from a screen. it's It's nowhere near near the experience that you

[harri]: have when you see the real thing, But I think, uh

[harri]: you. you are correct that it's it's very important to see things, uh, live, or

[harri]: actually, uh, especially when it comes to to

[pj_wehry]: H,

[harri]: to the visual arts, Uh paintings. You. You would think that a reproduction of a

[harri]: painting would work on a screen, but it doesn't uh, and I really noticed this, um,

[harri]: uh, during the the pandemic, Uh, when I mean all the museums were closed, Um, I work

[harri]: as an art critic, Uh,

[harri]: at the same time, so so uh, I was used to going to art exhibitions all the time and

[harri]: then everything closes and and

[harri]: for for months all I have uh are books, and uh, and and the Internet, And then when

[harri]: when the museum's finally opened, and I and I was able to. To see a real painting for

[harri]: the for the for the first time, Uh, for a long time, uh, uh. it was Su. such. it was

[harri]: like such an exhilarating experience. like almost like falling in love again

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[harri]: or or something like I, What how? How cool this is. Uh, and yeah, I think it's it's

[harri]: um.

[harri]: uh. It's such a a unique type of engagement that we we can have with

[pj_wehry]: H.

[harri]: artworks And it's not just uh, intellectual, uh, uh, but it's very very

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: physical and embodied

[harri]: and and emotional. And and you don't usually get the, if you see a small

[harri]: reproduction, Uh, it's I think, Uh, if we think about paintings, it's it's the

[harri]: physicality of the paint that also plays into into the experience, and and,

[harri]: and, and and the size of it. and and usually colors are not very well reproduc. and

[harri]: and all that so, I think it's a very uni unique thing, and and very

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[harri]: important to see things, Uh, see things live, But actually, uh, I also grew up in

[pj_wehry]: oh, okay,

[harri]: in quite a small town in in Central.

[harri]: We did have actually quite a big art museum in in in our, our, the town. uh, but um,

[harri]: by yeah, my. my, uh. like initial experiences with art were mostly with films and and

[harri]: things like

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[harri]: that, so

[harri]: we can have have artistic experiences uh, in rural places also, as long as you have a

[pj_wehry]: yes, Yes, Well, and that's you know it, I think most people's experience of this

[harri]: cinema.

[pj_wehry]: this kind of immersive experience. they're going to think first and foremost about

[pj_wehry]: cinema. It's one of the easiest ones to really

[harri]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: achieve. Um, uh, a nick. another part of that

[harri]: exactly

[pj_wehry]: too. Uh, So for me my journey's similar. Um, I had a lot of access. Uh, love to

[pj_wehry]: read at a young age, So for me, literature is my

[harri]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: first love. And then I got into philosophy, and while I appreciate the arguments

[pj_wehry]: of philosophy, I felt that there was some

[pj_wehry]: what everyone did. The same thing that I felt in arguing in philosophy was the

[pj_wehry]: same thing. I was occurring in fiction, but in a different way in terms of truth,

[pj_wehry]: and uh, uh, so my own journey, and you know I, right now I have a four and six

[pj_wehry]: year old. So, and I'm running a business and two podcast. So maybe in the future

[pj_wehry]: I'd love to get a Phd. But when I look at it and and I think about it, the the

[pj_wehry]: status of truth in art is what began to fascinate me. And I think that you know

[pj_wehry]: when you talk about the immersive of experience, my first thoughts turned to

[pj_wehry]: literature, Because that that's where I've most experienced it. Um, So I, O.

[pj_wehry]: Obviously this is not just limited to paintings, Uh, when I have experienced it,

[pj_wehry]: Um, you, you mentioned color. you mentioned size. I think also, yeah, and I'm sure

[pj_wehry]: you agree with this brush technique is something that's very much lost. Uh, so I

[pj_wehry]: saw. I think it's

[harri]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: uh, srat. Maybe that's the I can't remember whoda um. a Sunday afternoon in the

[pj_wehry]: park. It's uh. it's pointtiism

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, so

[harri]: yeahly,

[pj_wehry]: uh, I didn't realize I've seen that in like history books. You know, like uh,

[pj_wehry]: and then I went to the Art Museum of Chicago and it's huge and he did it with tons

[pj_wehry]: of little points of color And you don't get that in reproduction And it's It's

[pj_wehry]: kind of stunning. and and really the composition is nice. obviously, But like that

[pj_wehry]: whole,

[pj_wehry]: um, I, I think there is. what. what's really interesting is that kind of

[pj_wehry]: physicality and that embodiment that that you mentioned. So, uh, I, I, definitely

[pj_wehry]: a. As you're talking about this, a lot of the a lot of these same areas of the

[pj_wehry]: areas that I have studied, talk about phenomenology, we talk about herrmudics and

[pj_wehry]: these all are ways of providing us with Um, a kind of tool boxes to deal with the

[pj_wehry]: aesthetic experience. Um. Do you mind telling us a little bit about what

[pj_wehry]: phenomenology and hermonkes are for our audience who might not be familiar with

[pj_wehry]: that, So start with phenomenology? You' have to do like both at once,

[pj_wehry]: but

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah. sure. sure. Um. so Um,

[harri]: First of all, phenomenology it's A is a branch of philosophy, and

[harri]: much like Uh philosophy in general, Uh, phenomenology starts with

[harri]: with this

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[harri]: sense of wonder over the fact that that we find ourselves

[harri]: a world that is that is meaningful to us, a world that we can understand and an

[harri]: experience in in a myriad of ways, and we find ourselves in in this world, Uh in in

[harri]: such a way that we are conscious of ourselves and incapable of of asking the nature

[harri]: of of our own existence. Uh, so I think much of philosophy boils down to to the very

[harri]: basic questions of of what is reality and what is it to be a human being

[harri]: and phenomenology, Uh, is Pa, is based on on on the basic conviction that our most

[harri]: basic and primitive connection to reality and and to ourselves, Uh, occurs through

[harri]: immediate first person

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: experience. And if we want to give an answer to these very fundamental philosophical

[harri]: questions, Uh, we need to understand how we as human beings experience the world.

[harri]: So phenomenology is is concerned with mapping and and describing the the whole

[harri]: falcrum of of human experience, and and the ways in which Uh they connect us, uh, to

[harri]: to to the world, uh, to to other people around us, and and to to other objects and

[harri]: and other entities, and so so on. So phenomenologists are interested in questions

[harri]: like what is it to perceive something? What is it to be conscious of of oneself? What

[harri]: is it to feel, love or anger or joy or despair or hope? And and how do all these

[harri]: different

[pj_wehry]: excuse me,

[harri]: experiences are shape our existence

[harri]: Now? Of course, Uh, there are many many different Uh,

[harri]: other disciples disciplines, Also that that study a human experience, Uh, things like

[harri]: Uh, psychology or cognitive science, or or neuro science,

[harri]: Um, but, uh, what separates phenomenology from most other Uh approaches is that Uh

[harri]: phenomenologists uh study

[harri]: experiences uh as. They are lived through, Uh, in

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: in in the first person, uh, uh, perspective, Uh, experiences in in the concreteness

[harri]: and and immediateness, or immedacy,

[harri]: Uh, and and phenomenologist try not to uh, try not to uh, explain uh experiences by

[harri]: by uh, reference, reference to something outside Uh

[harri]: of of those experiences that they are trying to to explain. So, in contrast, uh, if

[harri]: if our neuroscientist uh, wanted to explain what it is to experience beauty, Uh, they

[harri]: would, for example, they would put people in brain scams and uh, and and see what

[harri]: areas uh, in their brains flare up when when they see something beautiful or or

[harri]: listen to to beautiful music. But for phenomenologists uh, this kind of approach

[harri]: doesn't really

[harri]: really capture what it is to to experience beauty. Uh, so so phenomenologists are are

[harri]: occupied in in describing a very minute detail, Uh,

[harri]: different experiences and and and what it is like to to live through them? Uh, so

[harri]: so um,

[harri]: so yeah, uh. of course, I mean. this is

[harri]: a very basic basic explanation. And and then things get a lot messier when we get to

[pj_wehry]: Yes, of course, now

[harri]: the question of Well, how do phenomenologists actually describe experience? What do

[harri]: they do with Uh experiences? Uh, So there are many different branches and then we

[harri]: don't have to go into them. Things like like transcendental phenomenology, and

[harri]: existential phenomenology, and and Uh, and hermuttic phenomenology, and and and so

[harri]: on, But but the basic idea that that uh, that connects all uh, branches or

[harri]: phenomenology, is this conviction that that uh, mhm,

[harri]: uh, that our primary and basic connection to reality goes through first person

[harri]: experience, and that is what we have to understand if we want to understand what it

[harri]: is to be be human, and and how reality is given to us, Uh, in in in a meaningful way,

[harri]: so connected to that uh, hermuttics, then uh is is. Uh is another branch of

[harri]: philosophy which is Uh. especially nowadays it's It's closely connected to Uh,

[harri]: phenomenology. Uh, So hermutics is is Bas, Basically a a branch of philosophy that

[harri]: that studies uh, human understanding and and the way we uh, interpret the world. So

[harri]: initially, uh, hermenutics, Uh,

[harri]: dealt with uh, uh, the interpretation of texts, like like the Bible, or or lawtexts,

[harri]: and so on. But then,

[harri]: uh,

[harri]: well, uh, then then uh, some philosophers like Martin Hedger, took up, uh, this this

[harri]: idea, and and sort of mm,

[harri]: uh, And and and they, they sort of enlarged the area of of, or the domain of of

[harri]: hermutics, and said that well, uh, all human existence is is understanding, Uh that

[harri]: that understanding is a basic

[pj_wehry]: H.

[harri]: mode of of human human, Uh existence. And and we don't interpret things only when we

[harri]: read something, but re, interpret uh,

[harri]: our situation all the time, Uh, whether or not it be conscious or or or not

[pj_wehry]: We interpret faces, we interpret

[harri]: so

[pj_wehry]: architecture,

[pj_wehry]: literal signs,

[harri]: exactly exactly

[harri]: Yeah. And and even now as you are listening to me, you are interpreting what I'm I'm

[harri]: saying, And and so on, Uh, so so, uh,

[harri]: this phenomen logical hermutics, or or herrmutic phenomenology, whichever way you

[harri]: wanted want to put it, Uh, studies

[harri]: how we exist as understanding being, and what what happened when when we understand

[harri]: something

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: or interpret something,

[harri]: so that that's a very short, short explanation.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, Yeah, And and so I just want to make sure that I'm tracking with you. Uh.

[pj_wehry]: Kind of the strength of phenomenology is that it gives us access to this first

[pj_wehry]: person experience as knowledge which a lot of philosophy and science struggles

[pj_wehry]: with, Um, and it which provides

[pj_wehry]: in many ways, Uh, I have found it more enjoyable to read than a lot of other

[harri]: Mhmly,

[pj_wehry]: philosophycause. you. can. you have a lot more of those moments of. Oh, I connect

[pj_wehry]: with that. I know what that feels like. On the other hand, the weakness of

[pj_wehry]: phenomenology is that it is reliant on first hi, first person

[pj_wehry]: you know. and and sometimes it, uh,

[harri]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: it can be very culturally conditioned in a way that Ma is culturally blind. And so

[pj_wehry]: uh, you have to

[harri]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: be Th. There takes a great deal of uh humility to do it correctly. And saying here

[pj_wehry]: is one way of looking at it, and here are some some knowledge about it, but

[pj_wehry]: understanding of something of that is culturally conditioned.

[harri]: exactly exactly. That's a very good point. Uh, so yeah, my, My initial initial

[harri]: reaction to phenomenology was was exactly what you said earlier. Uh, you know, as I

[harri]: said, I had before I went to, before I. I. I start studying at the university. I have

[harri]: read like Freud and and the German idealists, which are which are not very down to

[harri]: earth. Uh,

[harri]: Then then, when I then I remember, I can still remember so vividly. Uh, this lecture

[harri]: where our professor started to talk about Hdga, and and and way, a piece of chalk

[harri]: gains its meaning

[harri]: as when it's embedded Uh in in a context of of human endeavours, and and and in a

[harri]: world which is which Ha, which has Uh, lecture rooms, and and and chalkboards and

[harri]: lectures, and and and and the need to study and and things like that. And and I was

[harri]: like, Wow, you can do philosophy like this. Uh, So it was a bit like you know Stra.

[harri]: Got interested in in phenomenology because someone told you someone told him that

[harri]: that you can do philosophy by looking at a wine glass, So I had a very, a pretty

[harri]: similar experience with a piece of chalk. Um. so yeah, yeah, that's that's That's

[harri]: exactly what what draws me to phenomenology Precisely because you can. you can sort

[harri]: of you can. you can understand what what the phenomenologists are saying, and and and

[harri]: go like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. that's true. That's exactly what. What?

[harri]: what? what I have experienced, and sometimes with phenomena very often with

[harri]: phenomenology you get this. Get this

[harri]: this funny feeling that that when when you read something, and uh, and and understand

[harri]: what what the phenomenologist is trying to say, and you say Co luck. Yes, of course,

[harri]: of course, that's the simplest thing ever. But but the thing that you have that, but

[harri]: thing that you have never, never,

[harri]: something that had never occurred to you before. Uh, I think that's that's thes, a

[harri]: fantastic thing about phenomenality, but uh, you are also correct that that. that's

[harri]: also a a weakness in phenomenology, because we are tied to our own subjective view of

[harri]: the world, and uh and uh. And as you said it, it requires what a lot of humility or

[harri]: or or carefulness Uh in in trying to bracket out all the idiosyncrasies of of our own

[harri]: personal Uh experiences. And and you know, uh, the, the, at least the original

[harri]: version of of phenomenology, Edmon, whosel's phenomenology, Uh, had this had this,

[harri]: um. Uh, goal to achieve some kind of Uh,

[harri]: universal structures of experiences, Uh, that apply to to all experience, and uh,

[harri]: uh,

[harri]: and and so on and uh. I think we have to be very careful in in in

[harri]: in what we are actually claiming about about experiences. And and and as you said, I

[harri]: think phenomenal phenomenological description should be taken more like. Uh. They are

[harri]: more like

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[harri]: suggestions. that. Okay, Well, this is how how I experience things. This is how I

[harri]: analyze my own experiences, and uh, and uh, and I wonder if this works

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[harri]: for you. Um. and of course, this kind of kind of this way of doing doing uh,

[harri]: philosophy or or science goes quite quite Uh. against this objectiveist third person,

[harri]: Uh, ideal of of of science,

[harri]: Uh, but uh, again, the the phenomenologist can sort of defend themselves by saying

[harri]: that, Well, okay, uh,

[harri]: we are. I mean we, e, every one of us experiences the world from from the first

[harri]: person perspective, And and that that's something we can't do away with that. And

[harri]: even if the the The scientist uh, tries to to explain Uh, something from from some

[harri]: sort of objective third person perspective, it it always goes uh through the first

[harri]: person perspective first. And and that's something we have to have to understand if

[harri]: we want to uh, achieve some sort of objectivity, or or, or a third person

[harri]: perspective, whatever that is,

[pj_wehry]: well, and it's really interesting. You mention. uh,

[pj_wehry]: that the one of the big issues that we run into this is something that. eventually

[pj_wehry]: we've run into the sciences. That, what we so,

[harri]: Mm,

[pj_wehry]: um, it was really Ob is blindingly obviously transcendental phenomenology Right

[pj_wehry]: If we don't see it as suggestions or even as like For me, it's often a question of

[pj_wehry]: like connections, conversation and dialogue right, So I explain my first handy

[pj_wehry]: experience To See where do I connect with the other person

[pj_wehry]: instead of saying When what Huser was trying to do is he is like. This is the way

[pj_wehry]: everyone's first hand experience is like, and and's like, No, That's Husel's

[pj_wehry]: experience right. And like that seems really obvious to it now. But at the time he

[pj_wehry]: was working through that. and what we've seen with science is

[pj_wehry]: uh, time and time again, Uh, there are a lot of things that are that do appear to

[pj_wehry]: be universal, but there. it's amazing how many little first handd things where the

[pj_wehry]: scientist themselves makes certain. Um, they go looking for an answer

[harri]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: and they find the stuff that confirms their answer right, Because it does go

[pj_wehry]: through first

[harri]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: person and we've almost learned that lesson coming from Uh, transcendental, uh,

[pj_wehry]: phenomenology that way, Uh e.

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: So it? Ah,

[harri]: and I think that's where you need need this herrmuttic perspective. This

[harri]: understanding that that we are all situated beings that we, we all have

[harri]: this this limited horizon from which we look at the world, and this horizon is is

[harri]: conditioned by by our our culture, our previous experiences, and and so on, and so

[harri]: on, and so on. And we have to understand how how this background cos the way way we

[harri]: interpret things and understand things.

[harri]: So so yes, that that's why I think this this hermtic perspective is so important.

[pj_wehry]: it really adds a lot to it and I, it's part of the reason. one, um, I, I think

[pj_wehry]: we've in a lot of ways for me. it was literature for you, You know, it was

[pj_wehry]: experienced with cinema. I mean, obviously his experience, like with multiple

[pj_wehry]: forms of art. I think immersion happens probably for you in multiple ways, as it

[pj_wehry]: did for me. But as we talk about this,

[harri]: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: Um, the reason that we thought that Uh, phenomenology and hermutics work so well,

[pj_wehry]: Um

[pj_wehry]: in in a lot of ways the Anglephone world, Uh, focused on a lot of other things

[pj_wehry]: that didn't deal with art Well, but when you talk about first person experience,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, this idea of consciousness and value and then context, I mean it makes so much

[pj_wehry]: sense why. Uh. the study of art was particularly forgotten in Uh. Heron

[pj_wehry]: phenomenology, which is why why you studied

[harri]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: it correct. That's why that's how we get of. I mean there is a long round about

[pj_wehry]: way. I think now people understand, Uh, the tool set that you're using to talk

[pj_wehry]: about the immersive experience

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, um, yeah, I, I. I just have to say that,

[harri]: Um, I mean uh, art has been also studied in the Anglophone Uh philosophy. But but the

[harri]: questions and the approaches to to uh art has been very different. so uh, Anglophone

[harri]: or analytic philosophers haven't been that interested in in

[pj_wehry]: right,

[harri]: aesthetic experience. I mean, some of them are said that. Well, it doesn't make any

[harri]: sense and it's just way too ambiguous and and trivial thing for for serious

[harri]: philosophy. And what they have been interested in are are

[pj_wehry]: right,

[harri]: the art objects, and and so so it has been a very big question in in analytic, uh

[harri]: aesthetics, This question of what is arts? Why is some object an artwork and another

[harri]: is is not um. So they haven't they? They haven't been very concerned with with uh,

[harri]: aesthetic experiences. But uh, and it's been a a much more more,

[harri]: uh, uh, like an more emph,

[pj_wehry]: h.

[harri]: emphatic issue in in in

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[harri]: incontinental thinking. yeah,

[pj_wehry]: So do you want to tell us a little bit about Um, as what is the immersive of

[pj_wehry]: experience

[pj_wehry]: than with this

[harri]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: background. How would you describe it?

[harri]: okay, yeah, yeah, sure, uh. So, so this is basically the the, The argument that I, I

[harri]: tryed to defend in my my Phd thesis, Uh, so, um,

[harri]: my, my, my thesis, built on this Uh harian uh idea

[harri]: that that

[harri]: human existence is is by nature, uh,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: topological, Uh, which means that Uh, human existence cannot be meaningfully Uh,

[harri]: articulated and thought, Uh, without a reference to the world in which this existence

[harri]: takes place, you know we are not just some sort of beings that float in nothing, as

[harri]: we are embodied beings, who,

[harri]: who, who exist in a world, and and and. Human existence is precisely about being open

[harri]: to to the meaningfulness of of of the world, and Uh, and Hiideger's, technical term

[harri]: for for for human, was Darzine, being there, Because we always find ourselves there

[harri]: uh in in in the world,

[harri]: and uh, So my, my thesis, or or my thinking leaves from from this this idea that that

[harri]: uh, we always, uh,

[harri]: or actually,

[harri]: at least usually we experience the world, uh, as are as are that we've uh, we, we,

[harri]: uh, we find ourselves in a world which is uh, spatially extended, and un temporarily

[harri]: continuous, and. And it's organized in in a in a meaningful way, so that without

[harri]: having to do much effort, I understand that there's a table before me, and uh, and

[harri]: and another person and and trees and animals and and things like that. Uh, so I don't

[harri]: just experience sensory stuff that I have to somehow actively organize into meaning.

[harri]: The world opens up to me

[harri]: A A. a, meaningful and andcoherent whole.

[harri]: So what, I, then, uh, try to, or, or what I argue, is that when when we engage with

[harri]: with artworks, Uh, this uh experience

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: of of place,

[harri]: our our being in the world is somehow

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: somehow changed because the artwork uh, in a sense opens up, Uh, another world,

[harri]: have this sort of heterogeneous world, which,

[harri]: which appears in the midst of the world, but at the same time opens another world.

[harri]: Uh, So if we let's say we look at a land landscape painting, Uh, the landscape that I

[harri]: see, Uh, I don't. I don't intend it as as as belonging to the same space as as the

[harri]: uh, as the gallery in which I'm standing, Uh. The the painting, In a sense, uh,

[harri]: functions as this threshold to to this uh ire or non actual space that I can sort of

[harri]: see inside, but but I can never enter. And and what I

[harri]: uh, started to to describe is the way this eruption of of this uh, uh, poetic world,

[harri]: as I call it, uh, how this eruption uh, alters my sense of of of time and space, and

[harri]: uh, and uh, and even my sense or or, or my awareness of myself, and uh, And so what

[harri]: I, what I uh argued in my thesis is that immersion uh can be systematically uh,

[harri]: articulated in terms of the way uh artwors uh, disrupt the basic experience or

[harri]: structures that maintain our awareness of of place, Is that somehow, uh, the the

[harri]: experiential structures that sustain my, my awareness of being here, uh in in the

[harri]: world are are changed and and uh, when when I'm immersed in an artwork my my sense of

[harri]: time changes, I can lose uh com completely my my sense of time, and and. Play some

[harri]: people around me, and and and so on, So that's what I, I am. I'm uh, sort of arguing

[harri]: for that.

[harri]: That's

[harri]: what. what? What happens? The artworks have this this uh,

[harri]: weird capacity to to uh, alter or disrupt our basicperial structures.

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: right, right, uh, and I love that I. I think you know you mentioned Horizons

[pj_wehry]: earlier on. So, for our audience that they don't understand that that idea is that

[pj_wehry]: there's only so much experience that I've had right that myself has had that P. ▁j

[pj_wehry]: has had. And so that is the literally. When I look out, Um,

[pj_wehry]: almost like you're describing your mental space as a map. You have that horizon.

[pj_wehry]: That's as far as that my map has seen as much as I've seen, and that's going to be

[pj_wehry]: different among different people. Uh, what's interesting to me and this is what

[pj_wehry]: I've looked at with literature. Um, kind of as my fundamental art form. probably

[pj_wehry]: because I understand it the best right. I think we're drawn towards different ones

[pj_wehry]: and we. I. but uh, when you talk about this, Uh, yeah, it's interesting you say

[pj_wehry]: Irael over unreal right, which is slightly different and I think that this idea

[pj_wehry]: that we talk about like impressionist painting,

[pj_wehry]: what you're looking at is not just like. Uh, uh, it's not a photograph right.

[pj_wehry]: You're not looking at a real place. What you're looking at in many ways is another

[pj_wehry]: self. Is that there's the creation of a new horizon. Is that A? Is that a good

[pj_wehry]: clarifying way to talk about it?

[harri]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe maybe so. yes, um,

[harri]: although, I, I think we have to be careful

[harri]: with that in the sense that when we engage with the artworks, I think we are not

[harri]: directly engaged with other minds. You know, it's not just that the that the artwork

[harri]: is some some kind of arbitrary link between my mind and and the artist's mind. What

[harri]: we are engaged with is the is the artwork which sort of bears the imprint or the

[harri]: trace of of the of artist consciousness.

[harri]: But but yes, uh, I think definitely. that's uh. That's a uh. Important,

[harri]: uhlarification, in the sense that uh, is that uh, Precisely what? What opened in an

[harri]: engagement with with an art, Uh with an artwork? Is that um,

[harri]: uh, What opens is is this uh, horizon or of sense which

[harri]: be bears, Uh, like

[pj_wehry]: Yes,

[harri]: human significance, and

[harri]: and and and human experience,

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, and you mentioned like that other person's imprint Right and that, I think

[pj_wehry]: that is fair. It's not like I'm actually looking inside, like Van Go's head, When

[pj_wehry]: I look inside is painting, and I think that's uh and I. I'm glad that you. You

[pj_wehry]: mentioned that because when we talk about horizon, and this was a huge point for

[pj_wehry]: me because Uh, I grew up with very a very poor set of harmonedics. I, I grew up

[pj_wehry]: Uh,

[harri]: Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: fundamentalist Christian, and

[pj_wehry]: the the way they talked about interpretation was very poor. It's probably a large

[pj_wehry]: reason why I got pushed into this. I was like this doesn't match up with my

[pj_wehry]: experience of reading literature at all, Um, but the uh,

[pj_wehry]: when I, when I th. The, the point about horizons is not that I can ever take

[pj_wehry]: someone else's point of view, because I can never be. I can never look out from

[pj_wehry]: someone else's eyeballs, but we can share the same horizon like we can sit next to

[pj_wehry]: each other on a porch and look out the same thing. And so Art does that in

[pj_wehry]: a a unique way.

[pj_wehry]: What and what would

[harri]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: you say is unique about that versus just dialogue in general, explanatory power in

[pj_wehry]: general,

[harri]: oh yeah, yeah, yeah. that's a. That's a very good, very good question. I think.

[harri]: I think. Uh,

[harri]: it goes back to to the fact that art

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: engages us in in such a holistic holistic way, I mean, usually usually the way this

[harri]: this uh

[harri]: is is uh, articulated. Is that art doesn't just tell us how things are it. it shows

[harri]: us how things are. Uh,

[harri]: so so for instance, instead of just saying that, uh, that, uh, six million jews died

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[harri]: in the holocaust, uh, art can sort of show us the horror of of the concentration

[harri]: camps and and and human capacity for for for in inhumanity, Uh, so so there is this

[harri]: sort of holistic uh, engagement or or simulation that that doesn't just uh, stimulate

[harri]: our minds, but, but also engages our emotions and and imagination, and uh, and

[harri]: memories, and

[harri]: and, and the whole whole whole body, So that's that's what I think that is is

[harri]: interesting.

[harri]: Uh,

[harri]: about art, that that that through art we can sort of we can experience all sorts of

[harri]: uh things that that we would not be able to, or even willing to uh experience in in

[harri]: our in our own lives or real lives. Uh,

[harri]: So so

[harri]: one argument for art could be that that, uh

[harri]: art, so it widens our perspectives or or horizons, Uh, in a way that

[harri]: sort of simple telling or or propositional knowledge doesn't Because art sort of

[harri]: penetrates deeper, or it can't penetrate uh deeper,

[harri]: Uh

[harri]: one. One way that I've I've sort of found

[harri]: useful Uh, in thinking about this, um

[harri]: is is this Uh theory proposed by this Finnish literary theorist called Uh, Hannna

[harri]: Merit, or Uh. She proposed this, this concept of of sense of the possible,

[pj_wehry]: forgive me. do mind. Um, do you mind us spelling up?

[pj_wehry]: Yes

[harri]: Uh, her name.

[harri]: Oh, okay, so it's uh, Hannna, H, a double a, sorry, A h, a double, n, A and merit ora

[harri]: M e r e t. Oh, uh, ▁j, and a

[pj_wehry]: than sorry. Continue. I would to put it down in the description. Yeah,

[harri]: Yeah, Sure, uh. So so uh, she developed this, or or just proposed this theory that Uh

[harri]: art can widen our sense of the possible. And what? what? um,

[harri]: uh. What the idea is that? I mean basically this has to do with with the with the

[harri]: term horizon, Also, uh, So the basic idea is that uh, our sense of the possible, uh,

[harri]: uh, articulates the way in which we we uh, interact with our surroundings And and and

[harri]: how, in each situation, our our way of interacting with our our surroundings, Uh is

[harri]: is conditioned by our understanding of of what is possible in in that given situation

[harri]: what kind of possibilities of of thought or action or whatever is is is possible, And

[harri]: uh, I mean you. Know, uh, a grocery store appears to me as as a different kind of uh,

[harri]: space of possibilities than than my home, or

[pj_wehry]: yup, yeah,

[harri]: or my, my. O. You know uh, very basic basic point, Um, but uh,

[harri]: and and of course this sense of the possible is is uh, something that evolves and

[harri]: accumulates all through our lives. Uh, as as we grow up and and gain more experience.

[harri]: But now the thing is, uh, our

[harri]: possible, like, like our herrmmanuttic horizon is is never exhaustive. It's never all

[harri]: encompassing and and we are never aware of all the possibilities that

[harri]: that are open to us in in a given situation, and and uh, actually our everyday

[harri]: everyday lives, Uh, tend to narrow andtify our our sense of of the possible. And I, I

[harri]: think you actually talked about this in an Earli earlier episode with uh, some sant

[harri]: thea um,

[harri]: uh,

[harri]: but I mean, I mean there is this point that that uh, we usually live our lives with

[harri]: certain autm and

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[harri]: habituality,

[harri]: And and Meritoa's point and theory is that artworks, and in her case, literary

[harri]: narratives, Uh, they can expand our sense of of

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[harri]: what is possible

[harri]: by allowing us to

[harri]: uh,

[harri]: experience or see the world through

[harri]: other people's eyes, of of being in contact with other kinds of of ways of, of uh,

[harri]: other kind of. Ways of uh, thinking and relating to to the world,

[pj_wehry]: I could. I.

[harri]: and uh, so

[pj_wehry]: Oh, I'm sorry. Good. I was going to say in terms of uh, I just want make I' track

[pj_wehry]: with you and may be clarifying. here. Um, when you talk about this, something

[pj_wehry]: that's really helped my thinking about Uh. Literature is what's the difference

[pj_wehry]: between a literary narrative and A and a historical narrative. And what's

[pj_wehry]: interesting is that even you're talking about this. you're getting more access to

[pj_wehry]: the other person's phenomenological first person knowledge be precisely because,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, and you

[harri]: yeah, yeah,

[pj_wehry]: know biographies are going to be different from. You know Tales of Empire right,

[pj_wehry]: and there are different historical narratives, so there's obviously some kind of

[pj_wehry]: sliding scale here, but it becomes very clear that there is.

[pj_wehry]: Uh.

[pj_wehry]: if if someone gets a fact wrong in in fiction, that's not the point. no one

[harri]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: cares right. But historical

[harri]: hm,

[pj_wehry]: narrative is bound by, and you are bound by using historical narrative by the

[pj_wehry]: veracity of the facts, and it can fundamentally change it. And you have to

[harri]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: approach it differently because you have to verify what you're doing, whereas with

[pj_wehry]: fiction you allow yourself to participate without regard for the actual veracity

[pj_wehry]: of it. Be cause. That's not the point, and so that'.

[harri]: h. yeah, yeah, I,

[pj_wehry]: actually, that sounds like a weakness in our culture, but actually its strength.

[harri]: yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. uh. Sometimes it is precisely that the veracity is not

[harri]: really the point part, but exactly the uh,

[harri]: uh, emotions and and and the way the artwork engages our imagination,

[harri]: and

[harri]: and and so on, and I think

[harri]: uh.

[harri]: actually, this is a point that that comes from from nature. Uh, I mean this

[harri]: interesting interesting thing, uh, a nature. Um,

[harri]: uh, I mean, you know he, he wrote a great deal about about art and uh and uh, and

[harri]: his, his point about the relation between art and uh and uh. Un, truth of veracity is

[harri]: quite quite quite interesting. Uh. He was worried about this

[harri]: about this point that that we are so obsessed with truth, uh, truth, in the sense of

[harri]: of factual knowledge, Uh, that that it has le led us to undermine the value of of

[harri]: other kinds of of relationships to to reality, uh, like

[harri]: uh, like emotions and desire and creativity, Uh, whose, whose relationship to reality

[harri]: is a bit more more fluid and ambiguous than than

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[harri]: truth?

[harri]: Uh, so so so, in his, in his book Uh, will to power, uh, he, he makes this point that

[harri]: sometimes truth can be ugly, and and. Seeing the world only through

[harri]: uh, uh, only through the lens of of truth, can make our relationship to to reality

[harri]: quite cold and arid,

[harri]: and uh, And he, he thought that uh, art can provide us with this dimension of

[harri]: experience, the somehow counterbalances uh,

[harri]: truth, and and makes life about something more than than just truth, Uh, In this, in

[harri]: this recaed and arid sense, and endows life with with beauty and uh, and creativity

[harri]: and imagination, And that's why he wrote this this famous line that that we have art

[harri]: lest we perish from the truth, Uh.

[harri]: So I think that's a. That's a very interesting. interesting point that uh, art, uh,

[harri]: opens us. uh, a relationship to dimensions of meaning. Uh, that are difficult to

[harri]: capture in in

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: conceptual language, and and and difficult to to approach in intellectual terms. Uh,

[harri]: is that Uh. I mean, of course art can be

[pj_wehry]: two,

[harri]: deeply intellectual, Uh, but it can be so much so much more than that. Uh, you know,

[harri]: Uh,

[harri]: as I said, we are not just brains floating in the air.

[harri]: and and and we are whole people, and and and and art,

[harri]: uh,

[harri]: engages us in a very sensory and emotional Uh level. and uh, an an unticulous in in

[harri]: in a very very uh.

[harri]: interesting ways. That that are sometimes quite difficult to to capture in in in

[harri]: conceptual language. And I think that's what. What's so interesting? Uh about art?

[harri]: Uh,

[harri]: The this question that

[harri]: what do we do with this dimension of meaning? What does it tell us about being a

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[harri]: human?

[harri]: and and and so on, Jo think thats a vital question. That when when we start to to

[harri]: ask, what is the? what is the contribution the art provides us, Uh, that that first

[harri]: of all,

[harri]: uh, as as we just spoke, it opens us this perspective and this uh, possibility of

[harri]: seeing the world through other people's eyes and experience things uh in a different

[harri]: way, Uh in in ways that differ from from our our own lives. but it also, I mean, of

[harri]: course, uh, uh, we have just abstract art that doesn't involve any any narrative. Uh,

[harri]: it doesn't open any perspective to another person's life. We have music and and and

[harri]: stuff like that poetry. Uh, which doesn't include this uh, narrative structure, Uh,

[pj_wehry]: but it still opens us up to possibility. Just in different ways,

[harri]: but also the

[harri]: exactly exactly I think. Uh,

[harri]: you know. Uh, it doesn't have to be a narrative thing. I think art can still give us

[harri]: experiences that somehow go below the register of of of conceptual thought, Uh, and

[harri]: and engage the emotions and the imaginations of the whole body, And that's that's

[harri]: what I find find so interesting And that's where I think we need to look for for for

[harri]: the meaning of art. whatever it is.

[pj_wehry]: I think's forgive me. This is brutally simplistic. But

[pj_wehry]: the idea that this first person consciousness, this kind of

[pj_wehry]: that art, versus kind of explanatory power. You have one that is the opening up of

[pj_wehry]: possibility and have the other. that is the closing off a possibility. Which

[pj_wehry]: sounds like we are saying that that that's bad. Sometimes you need to close off

[pj_wehry]: possibilities right, like science is often concerned with

[harri]: Mhm, Mhm,

[pj_wehry]: solutions, and like finishing and completing, And the idea is not that one is

[pj_wehry]: necessarily better than the other. It's that, uh, kind of what the the point you

[pj_wehry]: made with Nia that you need, Uh, both truth and art That you need both the ability

[pj_wehry]: to open and to close things. Um, you know, I mean think that becomes obvious with

[pj_wehry]: everyday things. Uh, you need. uh,

[pj_wehry]: you need to figure out what's for dinner and that's like at the end of day. that's

[pj_wehry]: a closed question. But if you've had spaghetti and

[harri]: y,

[pj_wehry]: meatballs for five days for that week, maybe it's time to open up some other

[pj_wehry]: possibilities, right,

[harri]: yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. that's true. Yes,

[pj_wehry]: Um, and I mean that's very simplistic. But just to to give that kind of simple

[pj_wehry]: model for what we've been talking about, Um, just I, as we as we wrap up here, Uh

[pj_wehry]: and again, think so much for coming on. this has been. I mean this is.

[pj_wehry]: this is what. I want to study. philosophy. I can talk about this all day. It's so

[pj_wehry]: much fun. Um, so thank you, the. uh. What would you sum up Uh for our audience?

[pj_wehry]: It's just like the most important thing to take away when they think about art

[pj_wehry]: when they think about the contribution that art makes to them.

[harri]: Oh, that's such a good question.

[harri]: Ohsh,

[harri]: I think. Uh,

[harri]: one

[harri]: one thing that I, I'm I'm sort of concerned about one. One thing that saddens me is

[harri]: that so many people say that art is

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: is so difficult,

[harri]: and and that art needs some kind of specialization that it's it's for the better

[harri]: people,

[pj_wehry]: sure,

[harri]: or or something like that

[harri]: that that worries me a lot. because I think

[harri]: I think art doesn't have to be difficult. it't it? It's not a riddle you have to

[harri]: solve.

[harri]: I think

[harri]: what is so interesting about art is that it. It reminds us how how rich and varied

[harri]: human

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: experience can be, and, and, and reminds us that there is always more things to to

[harri]: experience, more things to think about, Uh, so much more to to life

[harri]: than what we

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: usually realize.

[harri]: And and it's artist. No, not. it's not a task. it's it's an opportunity uh to to open

[harri]: up and and maybe learn something. And and it's okay if if nothing happens, it's okay

[harri]: if art leaves you cold, it's okay if if it makes you cry, I mean everything's okay.

[harri]: It's art is sort of this safe space where where where you can experience

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: all sorts of things,

[harri]: and and take away whatever it is that you want to want to take away, and I think it's

[harri]: quite fine to just enjoy art. Art can be terribly entertaining. It can be very

[harri]: superficial

[harri]: and it's okay,

[harri]: so I think I think that's my sort of message. This is a very wishy washing thing to

[harri]: say, but I, I really believe this that that. I mean everything's okay.

[pj_wehry]: I, I mean, I Id love that because I think there was uh, kind of a classic push to

[pj_wehry]: have a better class of art, and in some ways privilege certain

[pj_wehry]: consciousnesses, certain ways of of feeling and being embodied in the world, and

[pj_wehry]: that Uh, the only the better people understood it. Because only the better people

[pj_wehry]: un experienced it or were immersed in that kind of art. Because

[harri]: exactly

[pj_wehry]: their lifestyle is different, and so I love that you' like find what works for

[pj_wehry]: you. And if it doesn't work, that's okay, you know, and when I say work, I mean it

[pj_wehry]: creates a submersive or connects. some people's going to. You know. there. there's

[pj_wehry]: art that doesn't connect to me. There's some art that does connect with me. Um,

[pj_wehry]: you know, uh,

[harri]: yeah.

[pj_wehry]: so, uh, for me, I, I. I haven't seen it in person. I definitely want to. uh. I

[pj_wehry]: love the flaging of Marcius, uh byition, and uh thatj I. I

[harri]: Okay,

[pj_wehry]: love that painting and so just uh.

[harri]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: I. I think a lot of times the way that art is taught in schools is a teacher finds

[pj_wehry]: something that they like and they share it with the students and then some

[harri]: Mhm.

[pj_wehry]: students are like. Oh, Art must not be for me right. And so that's what you'

[pj_wehry]: speaking to, And that brings me uh, a lot of wass, So much joy to hear that, Uh,

[pj_wehry]: because I think that there there is art out there for everybody. Really,

[harri]: yeah, Mhm.

[harri]: yeah, yeah, sure, sure, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. and it can be such a such a

[harri]: great thing. uh, you just need to need to have

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[harri]: have an open mind

[harri]: and uh. and and be sort of ready to feel.

[harri]: whatever it is that that the artwork make makes you feel, and uh and and you know,

[harri]: Uh, the the interaction that we have with with uh with with artworks. I mean, it's a.

[harri]: it's a two way street. Uh, we have to be open to the artworks. It's it's not like the

[harri]: magic doesn't just happen. We, we need to be be receptive. and and I think

[harri]: you just have to have to sort of

[harri]: be be ready to to see what happens. And if it's not for you, then it's not for you.

[harri]: but uh, but but it. it's not something that that you should be worried about. I

[harri]: think,

[pj_wehry]: thank you so much, and uh for a audience. If uh, if you found the death

[pj_wehry]: conversation inspiring or if you learn something new, please like sure, and

[pj_wehry]: subscribe. Um, Doctor Macn, absolutely loved having you on today. thank you.

[harri]: thank you so much for having me.