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Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Raven (00:26)
Hello, Derangers. Welcome back to Deranged De Jure.
We are two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions. I am Raven. I am joined by my co-host.
Pisha (00:37)
I'm Pisha
Raven (00:37)
Yeah, well, I just definitely get you all. Okay. All right. Perfect. Great. So now we know who we are. We're two deranged lawyers, as I said, talking about our deranged obsessions. And this month for you, we have the third episode in the progression from Ruby Ridge to January 6, which is my ultimate obsession. Oklahoma City bombing. I did not know how obsessed I could become with a horrible tragedy.
Unfortunately, I am deranged. So yeah, in case you didn't know, I am also, I am deranged.
Pisha (01:04)
We didn't know.
Raven (01:10)
then this ultimately happened as I think unless you're living under a rock or born after 2000.
You probably know that Oklahoma City bombing happened on April 19th of 1995. So this was a culmination of a lot of grievances that were happening within the right-wing white supremacist circles that led Timothy McVeigh to do this heinous act. So taking a little bit of a step back.
Previously, if you didn't listen to our episodes on Ruby Ridge and Waco, I would recommend that you do in order to talk about this because they're very intertwined. It really has to do with a lot of government overreach in Ruby Ridge and in Waco
people are paying attention
people who were on the right in these white supremacist type of organizations. So
In both of those situations, they involve a search warrant, a valid search warrant, slash arrest warrant for criminal activity that both Randy Weaver and David Koresh were doing at the time. So this is a different situation. This is a situation in which one individual, allegedly one individual, decided to take it upon his own accord and bomb a building in retaliation for...
Ruby Ridge and Waco. So I'm saying allegedly, obviously, that there were other people who were involved. We know Terry Nichols. And unfortunately, we were going to be talking a lot more about Terry Nichols this time around. But our guest for today, unfortunately, had to cancel for understandable reasons, which Pesha is going to explain.
Pisha (02:48)
Yeah, yeah, after talking with Professor Barbara Bergman, who represented Terry Nichols, we had a nice discussion, but as lawyers, we totally understand the concern about oversharing information that could be privileged or protected under attorney-client communications. And so we did not want to do anything that would have jeopardized that privilege.
We understand that and we want to point out that Timothy McVeigh's
Mr. Steven Jones, does not have the same concept of attorney-client privilege.
He seems to think that, oh, my client's dead now, I can share whatever I want. Not true, not true. So we're respecting the privilege that exists between Barbara and her client, Terry Nichols. And so we completely understand.
Raven (03:40)
Right, which is there, right, it's there for a really important reason and you know, not to get too far into the weeds, but in America, where we live, supposedly.
Pisha (03:50)
Land of the Free.
Raven (03:53)
the accused, people who are accused of crimes, have a right to a full and vigorous defense. And so in order to do that, you have to be able to have honest conversations with your lawyers. It doesn't necessarily, and I think like this needs to be said, it doesn't mean that the people who are accused are lying or anything like that. It's that...
The truth is really nebulous at times, and there's ways that you can talk about facts that make you seem more guilty than others. And so that's the purpose of having a criminal defense lawyer is to present your case in a way that puts forward the facts that are the most relevant towards your defense. I hope that doesn't offend anyone. No.
Pisha (04:33)
No, it makes perfect sense. And I think we just want to encourage honest and open and transparent communications between clients and their attorneys. If they're afraid to share something because the only way they know how to say it sounds bad, the way you say it, then the attorney is able to parse that out much better than the average person is. And so that's why that privilege exists so that these kind of open conversations can exist. And so
Raven (04:47)
Exactly.
Right. I've personally had clients come up to me the first time I talked to them and they say, I'm guilty and I have to take them back and be like, well, let's talk about this. What do you mean by that?
Pisha (05:09)
There was this one time when I was in, there was this time in insurance defense where the lady walked up to me and was like, uh, yeah, I was definitely on my cell phone when I ran that light. And I was like, oh, cool. Thank you for that information. But at least I know how to deal with it now. You know, it's not popping up at trial.
Raven (05:20)
Oh, there you go. Yeah, exactly. Right, and that's the reason that you want to have those conversations with your lawyers is that they know how to handle those situations in a way that is in accordance with the law. So
Pisha (05:36)
Exactly.
Raven (05:37)
So unfortunately, she couldn't be here, but.
I am so excited about this episode because I am going to take you guys down my rabbit hole that I've been down for the past like three weeks. so here we go.
Just as a reminder of where we are in history, I talked about Waco and Ruby Ridge, but in addition to that, there is kind of this new surge of civil rights movement happening in the
1990s,
but Bill Clinton was just elected in 1992. And at the same time, there was this new rise of like a new conservative movement happening that really led to a lot of the stuff that's happening today. Newt Gingrich being one of them, who was intent on just shutting down Clinton every step of the way. So that's kind of some of the backdrop.
And there's some really just kind of vile and vitriolic rhetoric that's coming out of the right that's
new.
mean, you can look back as far as the beginning of time and see vitriol in politics. I'm not saying it's anything new, but it became much more mainstream. There was this illusion, I think, of politics being somewhat.
to some degree, some professional you would say. But
when Newt Gingrich and his ilk came into power, they really capitalized on the...
what I think my dad called it this. I'm gonna talk about my dad here just for a second. I know I'm kind of all over the place, but he calls it like a ragegasm. And I totally love that phrase. It's true. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, right. And so, and I think part of the reason that Oklahoma City fascinated me so much, we were both children, basically, when this happened. But when I was growing up,
Pisha (07:04)
I love that phrase. Great phrase. Ragegasm.
Raven (07:18)
My dad would listen to right-wing radio, not because he was into right-wing stuff, like he's very liberal. He raised me right, we'll say that. But he would listen to it in order to understand the other side. And at the time, when I'm a kid and even when I'm into my teenage years, I never understood it. But as an adult looking back at that, I find it really...
I want to say refreshing in a way to know, you know, he's really able to understand both sides in a way that I think has lost complete meaning in the rest of American politics.
Pisha (07:56)
Well, he hasn't lost dignity or integrity or respect by exploring the other side. And I just wanna say, we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but I tried so hard to be like your dad with something regarding Oklahoma City. We're gonna talk about it later. I tried so, so hard and...
Raven (08:03)
No.
Mm-hmm.
We will.
Pisha (08:22)
And the fact that he sat there and listened to Rush Limbaugh without turning it off the way I did when this incident happened, I'm so impressed is all I have to say. It takes a lot of patience. It takes a lot of understanding. It takes a lot and I didn't have it.
Raven (08:29)
No.
It does. And I'm not saying that he wouldn't be absolutely livid at what they were saying, especially when they were calling him in, the Nazis and things like that. But like, but he, he was able to dive into it as an intellectual and be able to, I guess, figure out what they were saying and, and deal with it. Like, like, they'll figure out what is we need to do and say to deal with
Pisha (08:46)
Oh, right.
Raven (09:07)
and I think that it really helped me to, you know, to shape my way of thinking about this
it's continually evolving and I think that's a good thing. And I like, you know, I'm just going to say thank you dad for, helping me evolve my perspective continually. So there's that.
Pisha (09:23)
I wish I had that because I straight up turned that shit off. We'll talk about it more later, but more to come.
Raven (09:25)
I know.
Yeah, you've had a different, a very different experience with your father. But not ironically. Yeah. So, yes, getting into that. So yeah.
Pisha (09:35)
Very different. He was listening to Rush Limbaugh.
Correct. Anyways, moving on. Timothy McVeigh. Oh, wait, hang on. I had something relevant to say again. I just remembered. Guess who was it? I think I was living in Lewiston, Idaho,
Raven (09:52)
Okay.
Pisha (09:58)
it's not that far, but it's really not that far. It was like three and a half hours away.
Raven (10:01)
Okay. Now fire. Whoa, but it happened. Huh.
Pisha (10:08)
Yeah, so I lived up in... Okay, so here's what I wanted to say that was super relevant, was in 91 when Ruby Ridge happened. I was living in Lewiston, Idaho, which is in the panhandle portion of the state, the northern portion of the state, only about three and a half miles south.
Raven (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Two.
Pisha (10:37)
of Ruby Ridge. So when that was going down, of course, I was an infant, I was maybe four years old. But my mom says that she remembers watching the news, like the local news about it. So yeah, it was pretty interesting. And I, you know, I remember growing up in faint rumblings about it, but never really understanding what it was and what it what its relevance was. But looking back on it.
Raven (10:50)
Oh wow, that's interesting.
Pisha (11:05)
through this month has been incredible. And just thinking about how close I was at the time. And so it's very interesting. And then I got obsessed with Waco. So I can't wait to hear how your obsession in Oklahoma City has culminated.
Raven (11:11)
Yeah.
Oh yeah, we're about to dive deep. So yeah, so getting into kind of the rest of the context, like I said, this like right-wingism, I guess is on the rise and it, I guess escalated when Bill Clinton was elected.
Pisha (11:25)
Ha ha ha!
Raven (11:38)
And then on November 30th of 1993, he signed into law the Brady Bill, which mandated background checks for guns and a five-day waiting period and also banned assault rifles. All good things in my opinion. But yeah, yeah.
Pisha (11:54)
Well, and it worked. Like, it worked. The statistics and studies show that the bill worked before it expired and never got renewed.
Raven (12:02)
Oh, and this is like also irrelevant, but around the same time in 1995 in Australia, they like had a whole gun, like they just banned guns. Yes, exactly. Yes.
Pisha (12:11)
They did a buyback and they did a government buyback. No questions asked and they bought back, I think like 75% of the nation's guns and destroyed them. It was incredible and they haven't had shootings since.
Raven (12:20)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So there's that, you know, whatever. No, I did it. It was me. I talked about Australia for whatever reason, because I can't stay on point to save my life. But anyway, so, so yeah, so gun rights were already they were becoming a thing they became more of a thing in the 80s. And then especially in the 90s after Waco.
Pisha (12:26)
But that's not why we're here to talk today. So sorry I put that in there. But...
Raven (12:48)
Waco was kind of like the rallying cry for gun rights activists and particularly for Timothy McVeigh. So who is Timothy McVeigh, Pesha?
Pisha (12:56)
Well, first of all, as we learned last week, Homie was at Waco. He was there as it was happening during the 51-day siege. He was selling anti-government right-wing Nazi bumper stickers. It was funny. He had four different styles. I looked them up. They were very, just very basic slogans. I won't repeat them.
Raven (13:03)
Thank you.
Stupid.
Pisha (13:23)
They were very white supremacists, very right wing. And so here's what we know about him. Timothy McVeigh was born on April 23rd, 1968. He was Irish American, as you can tell from that name, maybe, and had a pretty standard childhood, which kind of surprised me. Most of these people have fucked up childhoods. So...
Raven (13:44)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying like he his dad wasn't like amazing. As you know, it's difficult, but.
Pisha (13:48)
Well, yeah, but neither is mine. You don't see me blowing up a federal building. No, it's okay. I just meant like standard in the sense of like, it doesn't seem like he suffered really serious trauma or anything. He was, I-
Raven (13:52)
Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm sorry.
No, I think his parents divorced when he was a teenager or something and like his mom moved to Florida, but like yeah There it is
Pisha (14:08)
Eh, that would traumatize anyone. Yeah, well, okay, so here's the deal. Maybe there wasn't like trauma in the unusual sense. It's your typical trauma that typical children would have, I guess. He was however, very isolated because he was an asshole.
Raven (14:24)
Great.
Pisha (14:30)
He never had girlfriends or anything. I guess he opted to fuck his friend's wives, which also doesn't surprise me because that's like a very military guy thing to do. They all fuck each other, like all of them. But anyways.
Raven (14:31)
Mm-hmm.
Totally. Oh, seriously. Yeah. You're not gonna make many friends that way.
Pisha (14:48)
No, no, no. And obviously that led to him not having many friends. Fucking their wives would do that. So he became an infantry man in the Gulf War, which if you don't remember was in the Middle East. That place, I like how I'm like circling it as if everyone can see my brain map going on. Thank you. Thank you, Raven.
Raven (14:55)
Yeah.
That place.
I saw exactly where you're looking at. Yep.
Pisha (15:15)
Um, but so he was fairly competent at war. He did a pretty good job. He met his only two real friends there. So I'd say it was pretty successful. And those two friends are Mike Fortier or Fortier. I don't know if you, whatever way you want to say it, it's French. And then we got Terry Nichols, our guy, Terry Nichols. So we'll talk about these two a little bit more. in addition,
Raven (15:33)
Sure.
Pisha (15:39)
to what we've discussed already about Timothy McVeigh, he was a massive racist. He was reprimanded for wearing a white power shirt at a Ku Klux Klan rally, where there had been black power shirts during civil rights demonstrations. So he was kind of being a little douchebag and being like, oh yeah, you wanna wear your black power? I'm gonna wear my white power. And it's not the same thing. So.
Raven (15:59)
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not at all. And I don't know what his problem was. One of the things that I remember reading was that he talks about his progression into racism and talks about how he would see black people standing in line for welfare checks and things like that, and people on the porch and calling them.
slurs that I'm not going to repeat. And so that's where he like got his perspective on race. Yeah, but at the same time, like, I mean, I think you're going to talk about this, but he was also like, he was never employed. Like he didn't have any like, like to stand on.
Pisha (16:31)
Right.
Right.
Raven (16:45)
when he's talking about other people and their generalities, when he was also just like a massive loser.
Pisha (16:53)
Well, that's probably where the resentment comes from, right? Like you hear all these guys going, what white privilege? I don't have a job, I'm poor. And they think it doesn't exist because they personally are poor. He's kind of like that, where he has this casual racism based on his personal observations and anecdotes, and it slowly snowballed into a more vicious, malignant hate. And...
Raven (17:21)
Yeah.
Pisha (17:22)
And I think a lot of it had to do with resentment. He, as a white man who should have all this privilege as society tells him, although I think white privilege came more under the scope of the media in the 2000s probably. But still, I think we're amping up to that point.
Raven (17:39)
Sure. But.
And a permanent action was happening at the time too. Like, so he's seeing these things and see like, allegedly seeing like people who are black or women as well. Like, I mean, he also hated women. Surprise. Raging misogynist, like who would have figured? So anyway, like this is also an aside and I'm sorry, I keep getting off track, but like.
Pisha (17:56)
I'm sorry.
Raven (18:03)
We talked about this earlier, Peshia, as well, but
I'm reading the Malcolm X's autobiography, which is a great progression between Timothy McVady and Malcolm X. Both raging misogynists, so at least they would have something to talk about if nothing else. So, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Pisha (18:15)
Right? Yeah, yeah, they might not agree on anything else, but Yeah, yeah, but you know back to McVeigh you were right. He was this big fat loser. He was lazy He couldn't hold down a civilian job after he was out of the military He ate junk food. Not that anything's wrong with that necessarily I don't really have a problem with it. But but
Raven (18:21)
Anything. Like literally anything else. But...
Mm-hmm.
No, that's not the problem.
Pisha (18:41)
But like, it's like a part of the whole persona. And he sat around, he sold all this stupid propaganda and guns at gun shows, the bumper stickers at Waco, as we've talked about. And he was just this lazy piece of shit. That's really who he was.
Raven (18:46)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he totally was. And one of the things that...
from this too is that when he would go to these gun shows, like he, at first he was finding like finding his community of people after being in the military and not really like having any friends other than Mike Fortier and, and Terry Nichols. and he was hoping to make more friends. and ultimately he'd made like one more friend, Roger Moore, who we'll talk about a little bit later. but yeah, I mean, he, he went to these gun shows thinking that he was going to be his people and was ultimately kind of disappointed.
that like really all it was selling guns, which it only makes sense, but you know, he's a dumb dumb. No. Correct.
Pisha (19:37)
Yeah, turns out he was a loser and no one liked him from anywhere. Well, and I
saw was, as he was growing up, he was this loner at school, he didn't have friends like we've discussed, but he grew to really hate.
bullies. Like that was something I noticed in his biography was that he has this hate for bullies, which I thought was kind of interesting because I associate white supremacists with bullies.
Raven (19:58)
Yes.
Pisha (20:08)
but he would argue differently. He would argue that he's standing up for people who are being oppressed, right? And so he's standing up to the bullies. So I just think it's interesting that he kind of has grown up a loser.
Raven (20:11)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Pisha (20:22)
developed this hate for bullies. And of course he targets the federal government, the bullies, the ultimate bullies, right? They're coming to take the guns. They're coming to take your money, your income. They're coming to take everything from you. And now they're telling you, you have to play nice with black people, which he does not wanna do.
Raven (20:29)
That's exactly it.
Yeah, that's exactly right. So yeah, so thanks for explaining Timothy McVeigh to us. I'm going to tell you a little bit about what happened and what led him to plan to bomb the Murrow building. So at some point, and I can't quite remember when he read this, it might have been in high school, I kind of want to think, say it was in high school. He read a book called The Turner Diaries, which is a book that outlines
a white supremacist plot to basically bomb a federal building and take back the world that had become too inclusive.
that really like that shaped his life. He told everybody, he told his sister, he told Terry Nichols, he told everybody to read the Turner Diaries. Like that
you know, take out the white supremacist stuff, but leave in everything else because the federal government and taking away our guns is really something we have to worry
you know, like we had mentioned before, he was horrified by Waco He had actually talked to the student journalist and she had, I think, went on to write a story about the way that he was selling the propaganda that he had.
Sitting on the side of his truck, like we said.
was at that point, I think, starting the plot to bomb the Murrah Building.
so Waco happened on April 19th of 1993. And then April 19th was a big day for a lot of different reasons. One of the other reasons being was that Richard Snell, who was also a member of the covenant, the sword and the arm of the Lord, this is a mouthful, but also known as the CSA, he was a Christian identity.
Pisha (22:21)
Wow.
Raven (22:26)
white supremacist and had killed a Jewish pawn shop owner as well as a black Arkansas state trooper along with a co-defendant who testified against him. Anyway, yeah, so great guy. All of these things. Yeah. Because this was like, and we're going to talk a lot about this later, but you know, white supremacy was really on the rise. And there was a lot of...
Pisha (22:36)
Wha- Why- What- Enter Richard Snell why?
Raven (22:53)
terrorist actions that were going on around the country. This wasn't a one-off. Like again, like,
wanted to do this whole month because it is critical to what's happening today. And so, you know, you're looking at all these things that are happening in the 1990s that are all very connected. I sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but it's not because these are all
white supremacists who are going around the country and committing all kinds of heinous crimes and hate crimes. And so in any case, Richard Snell.
Pisha (23:28)
Did Snow, did he serve any sort of time for like the murders that he committed?
Raven (23:33)
Well, so yes, so he was tried, he was convicted, because his co-defendant, like I said, testified against him and ended up getting, I think, 30 years in prison or something like that. I can't remember his co-defendant's name, but in any case, he got the death penalty, and he was scheduled to be executed, ooh, I cannot remember if he actually was executed or not, on April 19th of 1995. So, there's, yeah, okay.
Pisha (24:00)
I do remember this. I think he was supposed to be, he was set to be executed that day. But I don't know if they actually did end up, like I think there was some stay. There was some stay that took place and they didn't end up killing him until like a few days later I think.
Raven (24:05)
Right, that's exactly right. I think they didn't.
Third.
Something like that, yeah. And that's typical, like when it comes to death penalty stuff, it takes years and years and years because when you're gonna kill somebody, when you have the government who has the force to be able to kill somebody, you wanna have all the fail stops available to you in case you're innocent. And it still doesn't work. And that's why we're still against the death penalty. And again, I don't need to go into that, but I mean, I would go off on everything right now, so.
Pisha (24:37)
I'm sorry.
So, so yeah, we know, but it but it's a fair point, you know, that Richard Snell, though guilty, he has used his constitutional rights to stay his execution. This execution was important because he was this like figure in white supremacy. Timothy McVeigh had been watching this and so April 19th was super important. Also my dad's birthday.
Raven (24:44)
We know why I'm against the definitely.
All right, see all the things. Yeah, and so one of the things that Richard Snow just to tie a bow into that, before he was executed was that he was very talkative and he was telling the world basically to expect a bombing of a federal building on April 19th of 1995. He claimed some responsibility. And so that'll tie in later. We'll talk about that a little bit later.
It's unknown whether or not Timothy McVeigh knew about this or not, or whether he was tied to this or not. I think he was asked about it. There was a 60 minutes interview. I don't know if they asked him about that at that point, but I personally think that there was a connection. I think that there just had to be because the ideologies were just too intertwined.
all leading up to...
the reason for the planning behind the Murrah building. What happened was that he and Terry Nichols lived on a farm with Terry Nichols' brother, James, in Michigan. And they started developing this idea of,
to build a bomb. He learned, I think, in the Gulf War...
the makings of a bomb. And so he went out, went to actually a couple different places and actually got reported because he was trying to buy racing fuel and like massive amounts of it. And so one of the vendors like was tipped off about this and was like, I'm gonna, you know, talk to the FBI about this, but I think he used a fake name. He tended to use a lot of fake names, so he wasn't caught at that point. And then
the next stop they didn't question it and so he was able to
a ton of racing fuel and so they had storage a storage unit full of I think like 6 000 pounds of fertilizer as well as I can't remember how much raising fuel but a ton and so the idea was to create these bombs based on
went to a local quarry and stole a bunch of dynamite from the quarry as well.
I mentioned before that he had made friends with Roger Moore. One of the things about Timothy McVeigh was that he had no money, he was broke.
was trying to come up with all kinds of different ways of
getting things that he might not otherwise be able to get. And so he convinced
basically rob Roger Moore.
that was how they were able to bring together all of the ingredients that ultimately led them to be able to go across the country, which costs thousands of dollars and commit this act. So.
Terry Nichols was kind of along for the ride for most of this and was basically doing his bidding. I heard it described and this made me so sad. You remember of Mice and Men at all? Of, yes, of Lenny. And so, and that just, he does. He does. So I really think it was a pinky in the brain type of situation. Like he just did not have.
Pisha (28:15)
Yeah, of Lenny. Yeah, he gives off some mad Lenny vibes.
Raven (28:31)
the faculties to do this. And there was a lot of personal things happening in Terry Nichols's life. I think he and his wife were going through some troubles and things like that. And like I said, Timothy McMay was a massive loser. Like he just didn't have anything going on in his life.
of the things that came out of this for me was, you know, I kept wondering if he had ever been loved, would this have happened? And I think that, you know, that is a conversation for a
But it is a common theme for a lot of violent men that they are lonely. They don't have any outlet of being able to express or feel love. And so that leads them down this like hateful, terrible path. I'm not justifying it. This is not what I'm saying at all, but.
Pisha (29:22)
No, not at all, but I hear what you're saying. At what point could a well-intended hug have changed this person's, the course of their life? Like, just showing some love in a normal, natural way to these people. And when you talk about Terry Nichols particularly, he struggled in the army because he wasn't considered very bright. Like, the guy wasn't very smart. And so I just, I think about if he had been
Raven (29:29)
Thanks for watching!
It's true.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Pisha (29:50)
just treated with a little more kindness and love and respect and he wouldn't have needed to get the attention, the negative attention that he was getting from Timothy, the fulfillment he was getting from Timothy McVeigh. So yeah, I do hear what you're saying. There's no justification, but it makes you wonder if it could have changed the course for some of these men.
Raven (30:02)
Right, exactly.
Right, well, yeah, I guess that's the entire point. And I think we'll talk about this when we get to the takeaways in all of this is that, you know, there is a lot of hatred and, you know, tribalism and things like that happen. And it's isolating and I think it's destructive to the cause. And I'm not a kumbaya type of person, you know me, but at the same time, I do think that there, it is in human nature.
just to want to love and to be loved. So there's that. But you know, none of that was available to Timothy McVeigh on April 19th of 1995. So he takes this rider truck, he, I should say, he takes the storage unit and fills it and creates these bombs using like the whatever those barrels and creates a cell.
Pisha (31:03)
Oh yeah, those like big drums.
Raven (31:05)
Yeah, and creates a cell inside of, and
point out that right before he had done this, he went out to go visit Mike Fortier and his wife, who were massive meth heads,
Pisha (31:17)
Sorry, I don't know why that made me laugh, but I was just like, oh yeah, of course, these masterminds are meth heads. Let's just all gang, it's such a ragtag group of people. We got a dumb guy, we got a meth head, and then we've got a racist.
Raven (31:21)
Of course!
Yeah, really. I know who were able to commit so much atrocities. So, bye now. So many atrocities. Anyway, so he goes out to... Thank you. We're great at this.
Pisha (31:36)
so much.
An atrocity of magnitude.
We're so good.
Raven (31:51)
So he goes out and visits Mike Fortier and his wife and he actually lays out,
I can't remember what he used as a, I think they were coke cans, in the cell that he had configured that was going to create the bomb. So Mike Fortier and his wife knew exactly what he was going to do. He said he was going to bomb the Murrah building.
He said exactly how he's going to do it. He was going to rent a rental truck and, you know, go and park it next to the building and fill it with explosives. He, he said that to them.
he ends up filling the truck. Terry Nichols takes off. Terry Nichols leaves him a note, uh, and says, you know, you're on your own basically.
and so he goes off and he does it on his own. He rents a writer truck. I can't remember if he rented the writer truck in his name or I think it might have been a different name. That's right.
Pisha (32:42)
He did it in a different name, but he accidentally signed in his name.
Raven (32:47)
Yeah, he did. So he was really sloppy. And that's part of the reason that he was he was caught because he yes, so you're right. So he signed it in his name. And so then he takes the writer truck and he stays in Kansas City a couple nights before the bombing. And he rents the room in his note in a different name and then he goes and gets boo guy.
Pisha (32:50)
Yeah.
Raven (33:14)
Pan? Mumu? Mumu Gai Pan? Yes, that's what it was. Sorry. It's relevant, I promise.
Pisha (33:17)
Why do you know that?
Raven (33:23)
so he orders um Mumu Gai Pan from a local Chinese restaurant
Pisha (33:21)
Okay.
Raven (33:29)
Right. So, and so he used the name, that's how they were able to tie his fake name to him because he had his, he was under the broom of Timothy McVeigh, but used a different name for the Mumu Gaipan. So, um, death by Mumu Gaipan, I guess. But anyway, um, yeah. So anyway, so he rents the
He goes and drives to Oklahoma City and he is scheduled to arrive just a few minutes after 9 o'clock a.m.
I think this is where you're going to take it away, Pesha, and tell us what happened.
Pisha (34:07)
Yeah, I'll take it away, but I have a few questions. One, why did Mike Fortier not take any more action? Like did they, why did they not continue involvement? Was it just because he lost interest or he chickened out the same as Terry Nichols?
Raven (34:10)
Sure.
Meth
Pisha (34:29)
Meth. Okay, that's all I wanted to know. Okay,
on. So we got the we got Timothy McVeigh showing up to this writer truck and the writer truck
Raven (34:34)
all right.
Pisha (34:42)
is just like, it's like a moving truck, right? I don't wanna make sure that's what I'm envisioning. Got it, okay, so.
Raven (34:46)
Mm-hmm
It's a big old moving truck, right? Yeah, and as you probably know, Ryder does not exist anymore because it was also the truck that was used in the World Trade Center bombing a few years before. Yep.
Pisha (35:00)
That's right, the first one, the first one, yeah. Okay, so that's probably gonna put you out of business if you get used for two bombings in a 10-year period. But yeah, so Timothy McBey actually had a lot of targets that he was considering when he was making this bomb. There were several federal buildings that he had visited or at least considered, I think, one of them being like Dallas.
Raven (35:10)
Yikes.
Pisha (35:27)
I think they had considered a few other places, but they had arrived on the Murrah building because they, there's allegedly, they think the ATF that some of the ATF that was involved in the Waco siege is headquartered in the Oklahoma City federal building, the Murrah building.
Raven (35:27)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Allegedly.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (35:57)
this building in Oklahoma City.
so yeah, so Timothy McVeigh arrives basically to the front of this building, right? Like I don't think he's shy about where he parks the.
Raven (36:07)
Mm-hmm. He's on this, kind of on the side, like so, and I think it's like he parked his car. Mm-hmm, right. So go ahead from there.
Pisha (36:15)
on the north side of the building.
Okay. So, so Timothy McVeigh had parked his rider truck with the bomb on the north side of the building and just casually walked away. This is on April 19th, 1995, just after 9 a.m. I think the official time of the explosion, because there were people who were actually recording at the time, there were certain recorded phone calls and stuff going on was nine. Yeah, there was a hearing. Oh, that's what it was. It was a water board hearing.
Raven (36:40)
Mm-hmm. Well, there was a hearing. There was a hearing. Mm-hmm, yeah. That's right.
Pisha (36:49)
Um, yeah, so at exactly nine oh two a.m. the bomb exploded in the Alfred P. Murrah building, killing 168 people. There was a daycare center in there. I think it was on the first or the second floor and 19 children were killed among the 168 and I guess three pregnant women, which in Texas means six people died. So, um, or.
Raven (36:57)
Yeah.
I think it was the second floor.
No. Six people. Yep.
Pisha (37:17)
whatever draconian state is doing that now. But anyways, yeah, Oklahoma, there we go. So initially, people didn't believe it was possible that these could be domestic terrorists, that these could be Americans that did this horrible atrocious bombing at this federal building. So
Raven (37:20)
Oklahoma. Seriously.
Pisha (37:40)
The focus initially was on Middle Eastern individuals. Islamophobia was high during the time we were dealing with the Gulf War, the aftermath of the Gulf War, and Desert Storm and all this shit. And plus there was always like, you know, kind of a vague Islamophobia hanging over America forever. Right. When did that happen? I thought that was in 96. Oh, it was 93? Okay, so there was...
Raven (37:57)
Well, the World Trade Center bombing as well, it just happened. And so there was, you know, that too. 93, it was before. I think I was 93. Someone's going to correct us. Yeah.
Pisha (38:09)
Okay, so there's, I'm sure, but the point is there's Islamophobia going on, whether it's warranted or not. And there were all of these tips coming in. Some people saw two Middle Eastern individuals, and some people still claim that there's Middle Eastern ties, but no one has, no one from any Middle Eastern terrorist groups have ever taken credit for the bombing. And so in an incredible, yeah.
Raven (38:34)
Right. Well, and worse than that, I mean, I'm sorry to cut you off, but they, I mean, they were arresting, like, on site. Like, it was like one of those things that, as America likes to do when another, you know, country of color becomes involved in something, whether it's true or not, they were arresting people and interrogating them without any real cause. So that was a problem. Anyway, keep going.
Pisha (38:59)
Yeah. Yeah, no, there's a lot of problems, but it did in a way bring a huge, like incredible showing of spirit for this country. It kind of allowed people to
under this horrible, tragic event.
And so there was this massive volunteer effort to rescue anyone who might have been in the rubble of the building and then restore the city. There was this huge vigil you might remember. I think I remember seeing pictures and videos and stuff of it.
Raven (39:30)
Yeah, which, right, yeah, Bill Clinton was there. And I think that was a moment because, I mean, his poll numbers were atrocious at the time. I mean, he had lost control of the Senate and Congress. And once this happened, I mean, he really took hold of it. And to Clinton's credit was right away said, I know these people. I know that this is, you know, homegrown is what he said.
Pisha (39:57)
Right, right.
Raven (39:58)
So in any case, keep going, I'm sorry.
Pisha (40:01)
Well, no, you were right. I mean, Clinton got the message. He knew that this was homegrown terrorism and he knew that it was atrocious, but he was not the one who was falsely reporting that it was the worst act of terrorism or violence in Oklahoma's history. The media was doing that. Media was saying this was the worst act of terrorism in the state. They're wrong. It-
Raven (40:20)
Mm-hmm.
They're absolutely wrong.
Pisha (40:27)
They're so wrong, it's not even funny. It was absolutely the Tulsa massacre that left 176 dead in 1921. I've heard more than 176 in some numbers. I've heard upwards of 300 and that we can never be sure of the true number because of how the town was taken down. No, that's a fair number. I just, I wouldn't be surprised if it was double that just because of how terrible it was, yeah.
Raven (40:30)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, that's the number I could find.
Oh, I think that's right. Well, and I don't think, yeah, I think you're right, there's not a good number on it because it's been written out of our textbooks, which is why this is just insane to me that something so horrible can happen because, I mean, you're talking about homegrown, we're talking about 1995, and you have this even worse massacre that's happened in 1921 that nobody's even left talking about. It's insane. So anyway, that's my two cents.
Pisha (41:01)
completely erased.
Yeah, less than a hundred years later, like really we have such a short sight of how this stuff works, but in less than a hundred years, there were these terrible massacres, terrible terrorist events, all domestic homegrown violence against our own.
Raven (41:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
it's crazy because in theory...
Timothy McVeigh could have gotten away with us entirely, but he left such a trail of crumbs, like he was such a dumb ass.
one of the things that he did, so he had a camera, what do you call this, Mercury, it had some nickname, and he drove it out of Oklahoma City thinking that he got away, he got free.
Okay, so McVeigh was driving his car without a license plate, and 75 miles down the road, there is an Oklahoma State Trooper who is rushing in the other direction. I think he had just come off of some other...
crime occurred and was really like trying to get somewhere in a hurry and all of a sudden he sees this car without a license plate on it and so he decides to pull it over.
McBey was driving the speed limit like the exact speed limit at the time and that's actually another reason that he was caught. So he pulls his car over and ultimately has Timothy McBey step out of the
car
he's suspecting that it's a stolen vehicle.
Timothy McBae says, you know, I just haven't had it registered, blah, blah. He's very like polite and friendly as like was his way.
he ends up, you know, arresting, like going to pat him down and he says, I have a weapon. Well, in Oklahoma at the time, it is illegal to carry concealed. And so he is able to arrest him on that charge.
this is like the most badass thing that I heard out of this whole thing. That's why I'm upset that I can't remember the state trooper's name. Someone will tell me it's like Hardy or something, something like that.
he's patting him down and Timothy McVeigh just tells him, like, I have a weapon. And he goes, I have one too. And
Timothy McVeigh then, you know, I think he's like, he's still complying, but he says, mine's loaded. And the state trooper takes his gun, puts it to his head and goes, mine is too. Yeah.
Pisha (43:45)
What? How did you get away with doing that?
Raven (43:49)
I don't know. Like in any other situation, I would have been like horrified because it's like not right. But mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so he arrests Timothy McFay not knowing that he's caught the Oklahoma City bombing killer. And so they, you know, as you had mentioned before, there are thousands of tips that are coming in. A lot of them are wrong, but the FBI is, you know, to their credit, like following up on every single one.
Pisha (43:55)
but it's Timothy McVeigh, so it's okay. I agree. Wow.
Raven (44:18)
there's, I mean, they are so far off, like on the identity of this
So when they started doing this investigation, they were able to pull the axle from the truck that they believed had caused the explosion. And that axle actually had the VIN number on it. And so they were able to track down where that
Rider truck came from and the rental company that rented it to McVeigh. And Eldon Elliott is the one who was able to identify Timothy McVeigh. Eric McGown, I think I mentioned him earlier, he identified Timothy McVeigh as renting a room at the Dreamland in Kansas City the Friday preceding the bombing that happened on Monday morning. But.
It was Yu, I'm gonna butcher this name, Yu Hua Bai, who owned the little Chinese restaurant that I talked about that got Mugu Gaipan, and that's what nailed him. So anyway.
So once these tips were tied together, the FBI is basically in their major conference room, you know, trying to piece it together and find Timothy McVeigh. And they were able to find from jail records that he had been arrested and was awaiting a bond hearing. Still, I just love this so much. Like, he was awaiting a bond hearing in, I can't remember the next town over. And so, you know, he didn't have any criminal history.
to be released on bond. He was just waiting for his hearing. So one of the agents calls over to the jail and the way that they just described this is just so perfect because this guy had no idea. So he and they had heard rumblings about Oklahoma City. They just didn't put any of the pieces together. So this FBI guy calls over to the jail and says like, hey, do you have anyone in there who was just booked in maybe however long ago?
And the guy is trying to tell them stories about how terrible his day is, and just these weird, random, very petty things that are happening. And then he goes, oh, OK, well, let me just go ask around the office. And so he asks, hey, did we just get someone in? And they're like, yeah, we just got someone in however long ago. And they go, well, what's his name?
He goes, Timothy McVeigh. And the whole room just exploded. They were just like, we got him. So that's how they took down Timothy McVeigh. So yeah.
Pisha (46:52)
Wow, you know what it reminds me of, but slightly less orchestrated, is how they got the Idaho student serial killer, the guy who was driving to Pennsylvania. It was, they knew where he was going. They were watching him and these cops were deliberately tracking him all along the way. Slightly different in this situation, but he ended up getting pulled over like three times by three different like departments.
Raven (46:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that's right.
Yup. I know.
That's right. That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah, it's crazy. So yeah, you just never know who you're pulling over, I guess.
the judge on his concealed carry case, you know, was going to release him and wanted to hold him over. But then the FBI came in and took him by a helicopter. Like that was a whole epic ride to itself. But they took him to a federal facility. And then ultimately he was charged in a conspiracy case. So the case against Timothy McVeigh was extraordinarily strong.
that I mean I'm quite currently very impressed by. They had all of the receipts, they had the phone calls actually between.
Terry Nichols and Timothy McBae because they thought that they were being smart and carrying a certain phone that they had saw advertised in a rifle magazine that actually was very easily traced. And so they were able to get all of those calls
and able to
tie down the case against Timothy McBae. So
Pisha (48:31)
They were able to tie all of the evidence to the ingredients for the bombs. How much was bought where for how much? It was a really tight case. And where the feds fucked up in Ruby Ridge and Waco, they had it tight and together in this case.
Raven (48:40)
Right.
Absolutely, right. So Merrick Garland was basically the lead US attorney in this case, and he played very conservatively. And really, I mean, like, I think the biggest question to the rest of the country was why, but that's not what Merrick Garland or the US Attorney's Office needed to prove. They just needed to prove that he did it, and that's what they did. So they weren't going to make this a big blow up case for the media or anything like that. They were going to play it as
the rules as they could so that he wouldn't have the ability for appeals or anything like that, that they were going to get the conviction that they had earned. And so this was actually really interesting because I mean, I think Merrick Garland is a brilliant attorney and I think that he did it.
exactly right. He allowed in the public
that he was able, he got every single one of his rights along the way. So it was a public trial. It was not in Oklahoma. It was moved because too many people would have been affected by it. The judge actually tried to stay on that case, which was ridiculous because there's no way, like I think that judge, like part of the building
Anyway, it was very affected by this.
Pisha (50:09)
Right, like wasn't there a four, like they used to be in that building, like housed in that building at one point.
Raven (50:13)
Right. Exactly. So there's no way. Like, and they wanted to move it to, like, the next county, which was ridiculous as well. I guess.
Pisha (50:21)
Not far enough.
Raven (50:23)
Exactly. Well, and there's no way that they would have gotten a trial right, because everybody knew about that when you have something that's so infamous. And so, like, you know, there was this joke about there being like a 10-year continuance, you know, waiting until people were, their feelings weren't so inflamed by it, but obviously they couldn't do that. There's speedy trial stuff. So anyway, so Timothy McBain was kind of caught in this conundrum and
Pisha (50:27)
impartial jury.
Raven (50:49)
an attorney, Stephen
who was a very good attorney and was like trying to play into politics a little bit, but in any case, like he wanted to bring the case that the US government was so inept and so incompetent that they couldn't try him properly. And he was, could not have been more wrong.
So Stephen Jones and Timothy McVeigh butt heads a lot. And one of the biggest things that they butt heads on was whether or not there was more than one person
this case. Timothy McVeigh wanted to take full responsibility for it. In fact, Stephen Jones had a psych evaluation done on Timothy McVeigh, found out he was completely sane, and then also did, I think, two different polygraphs. But the thing is, this is the interesting part about this, is that the polygraphs show that he was honest about everything else except
that he was the only one who was involved in this. So take that for what it's worth because I don't believe polygraphs and no one should, but it is interesting. And Timothy McVeigh was furious about feeling that.
Pisha (51:48)
Interesting.
Raven (51:59)
So there was like, I think, a team of like 30 lawyers or something for Timothy McBey throughout this whole
the big question, I think, for Stephen Jones and for the rest of the legal team was what they could do with this idea that there may have been other people involved.
the indictment talked about others unknown, which I think Pesha, you might know a little bit more about.
Pisha (52:29)
Yeah, yeah, so this is a long form indictment and it's pretty typical language to sweep in any sort of unknown co-conspirator that may have helped participate or been an accessory to the
so yeah, it's...
Basic language that's usually put in boilerplate so that it sweeps in anyone who the government may be unaware of at the time of the filing of the indictment. It's really, it's not very mysterious language like it's being made out to be by Stephen Jones who's a good attorney, but one of the areas he really wanted to attack and show where the government fucked up was that there were all these others unknown.
to conspire to bomb the building. And so while that wouldn't take any responsibility away from Timothy McVeigh, it would contribute to the idea that the government didn't look hard enough at other people who may have been involved perhaps. So this is big point of contention between Stephen Jones and Timothy McVeigh, his client, who was adamant that there were no others unknown. Everyone was known, it was him.
Raven (53:13)
Thanks for watching!
Pisha (53:42)
and he was a lone wolf. Well, right, and he, I think he admitted to the limited assistance by Mike Fortier and Terry Nichols, but he was very dismissive about the assistance they provided and took a lot of credit. He was quote unquote, a lone wolf. And so there was a second person though, who was initially identified as John Doe II.
Raven (53:43)
And a little bit of Terry Niggles, yeah.
Pisha (54:08)
He had been seen with McVeigh renting the vehicle. And so this was someone who was confused for someone else. They were able to rule this person out pretty quickly, but it contributed to this idea that maybe Timothy McVeigh was working with someone else and the government didn't care to follow up on all these other leads. And so Jones played to both sides. He would claim on one hand that the others unknown could have been these
Muslims because Muslims can't be American. Apparently not. Muslims are only from foreign countries. So, so, you know, when speaking to more of the right wing side, he would talk about these persons unknown being Muslim or brown and very scary in that regard. But when talking to the more liberal side, he would characterize it as white supremacists and domestic terrorism.
Raven (54:41)
Apparently.
So...
Pisha (55:07)
So, you know, it has to be
Right? Well, Timothy McVeigh was a very avid Rush Limbaugh fan, and much of what he believed was parroted by Limbaugh and other right-wing talking heads. So I think it's important to mention that it's not like he was an isolated figure.
with these beliefs. It's being perpetuated by pretty mainstream voices in the
Raven (55:30)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (55:36)
but Republicans and right wingers have done the same thing throughout history of denouncing the violence.
and refusing to accept any responsibility, never acknowledging the reality of right-wing domestic terrorism, no matter how many times it's happened. So they always are like, oh, thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers, we're really sad that this happened, but no, it's not domestic terrorism. It's not, yeah, we don't take any responsibility for the rhetoric or for the division amongst people. So...
Raven (56:01)
Tifa!
Pisha (56:10)
So it's pretty common that this happens. And I think this is a good place for me to insert my experience that I had when I, yes, I tried so hard to channel your father so that I could get the other side. I wanted to know what the other side was talking about and.
Raven (56:18)
Yes, please. I can't wait to hear about this.
Pisha (56:35)
And I found this documentary, it's called The Noble Lie or A Noble Lie, something like that. And for those who don't know, A Noble Lie is a Plato philosophy
that suggests, it's a lie that is told that doesn't harm anyone for the purpose of maintaining harmony in society. So I was like, okay, I'm interested. Let's, what's the noble lie according?
to these people who think apparently that the Oklahoma City bombing is some sort of conspiracy. But it was so bad. The first 20 minutes, it was so racist. I tried so hard to just sit through it and try to see it from a different perspective without letting my rage interfere. And there was one woman who lost two of her grandchildren at the daycare.
in the bombing and her evidence for why it wasn't Timothy McVeigh, even though McVeigh confesses and whatever, her evidence was that I just couldn't believe that an American would do this to children. Americans love their children. And I was like, okay, every school shooting ever.
Raven (57:52)
Do we though?
Right. And lack of parental leave. Yeah, all those things. So we don't.
Pisha (58:01)
Yeah, all the children in the system right now, it's just, no, they don't. We don't care about our children. Don't act like we are morally superior. Then I had a lot of other problems with her statement. First of all, the implication that Muslims don't care about their children, and also that Muslims aren't American. Like, I just, it was so racist and so bad, and I kept
Raven (58:08)
No.
I hate it.
Pisha (58:30)
wounded, grieving woman. And she wants to find answers. So I'm trying to forgive her for it. But when in the face of so much evidence, Timothy McVeigh saying, I did it. All the receipts the feds had, like they had a solid watertight case against him. You know, and she's still saying this isn't good enough. You know, that answer isn't good enough. And so I made it through.
Raven (58:33)
Great.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (58:57)
minutes of the documentary until they seriously, not in jest, interviewed Alex Jones and he immediately said, oh yeah, absolutely the Oklahoma City bombing was an inside job and a cover up, government cover up. And I was like, I can't. And I just turned it off. I could not listen to it anymore. I feel like a failure. I want to know.
Raven (59:25)
Oh my god.
Pisha (59:26)
I know, I know I'm not, but it's like, I wanted to know what their side was. There was another hour and 40 minutes for me to understand and it was so chaotic. The evidence was an evidence. It was a woman who wasn't testifying, saying what she heard another woman saw.
Raven (59:49)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (59:49)
And it's like, hang on, no, that's, and they're all pissed off that their tips weren't taken seriously. And it's like, listen, there's a reason why these rules of evidence exist to exclude evidence that may be inaccurate. And in this case, your tips were inaccurate because it's based on he said, she said, they saw. It's not firsthand knowledge. So I just, I, it was.
Raven (1:00:03)
Right.
Pisha (1:00:13)
the most ridiculous documentary I've ever seen in my entire life. I challenge you all to watch it and tell me how it ends and try to tell me what the noble lie is because I don't understand how the government hiding that this was a broader conspiracy by white supremacists maintains harmony.
Raven (1:00:34)
Yeah, I don't know. I can't tell you.
Pisha (1:00:37)
I don't know.
I challenge you, Raven, to watch this because I need someone rational to tell me what it all means.
Raven (1:00:45)
Yeah, well maybe it's a job I can save for my dad. Yeah, I'll ask him to do that for us.
Pisha (1:00:49)
Perfect, he's the perfect guy for this.
Raven (1:00:53)
questions about, you know, what happened to some of the other people who were involved. So Mike Fortier and his wife were both asked initially about...
Timothy McBae, Terry Nichols, all these things. And they lied to the law enforcement, which is a crime. And they said that they didn't know anything at all.
Which was like I said, it was a lie because he obviously had told them everything so they actually played a very critical role in the trial itself because after a while they came back to him and We're like well, we found out that you're lying to us So we're gonna charge you and what we'll do is we'll give you a plea agreement That gives you a much lower sentence if you just give us the information that we're asking for So that's what happened to my court here and his wife I think his wife may not have actually
Serve time although I can't remember
Pisha (1:01:45)
I don't think she did.
Raven (1:01:46)
yeah she might not have but I know that he did but it was not a significant amount of time and he did cooperate against both Tim and Zima Faye and Terry Nichols so that's what happened to them and anyway yeah this is like I said this has become like my greatest obsession of the year or at least since February so I'm happy that we were able to kind of wrap this up and put it all together
Ruby Ridge and Waco. And I know that that's been done before. This is not anything new. But, you know, but I think it's important to talk about, like I said today, because it's very clear that this was not a lone wolf isolated incident as it continues to be portrayed in the media.
This is a threat that we have to.
contend with. This is something that we have to deal with and decide, you know, what is the best course of action in dealing with these incidents and this, you know, greater terrorism that's happening in this country. And so on a human level, you know, there's a question as to, you know, what we were talking about before. Can these people be saved if they're properly loved? You know, there's that, and I think we should probably do an episode because I love the story so much and I
infiltrated the KKK and yeah, it was able to pull them out of it. So I think the biggest thing, like I said, I'm reading...
Pisha (1:03:09)
Oh yeah, the black Klansman.
Raven (1:03:19)
Malcolm X right now too, and one of his big things is isolation from the white people. And so you see the dangers of that, and I'm not saying that I'm against what Malcolm X was saying, like I certainly believe in a lot of the things that he was saying, but the problem-
Pisha (1:03:34)
Right, but it's a different context.
Raven (1:03:37)
Right, right, and there's a lot I disagree with, of course, too. And I think that the idea that you can solve any problems by separating people is entirely wrong. That's kind of my takeaway from both this and from, you know, looking into some of these, the other side, I guess. So, yeah. So, on the other hand, I mean, the problem, like, where my hang up is in all of this is Nazi Germany,
Pisha (1:03:58)
Yeah.
Raven (1:04:07)
know how far do we let this go like what like would they would Germany have been able to prevent would have
from spreading had they just hugged Nazis more I don't know I don't think so I don't know there's a certain point
Pisha (1:04:20)
Yeah, there was definitely more going on there, forces at play, socioeconomic. But I do know what you mean because the problem's not going away. Like you said, at what point do we take a stand against it? Because though Timothy McVeigh ultimately was put to death by the death penalty and Terry Nichols is serving life in prison, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Raven (1:04:27)
Well, for sure. Yeah, yeah, of course.
Yep, not far for me. Let's do it for Max.
Pisha (1:04:49)
Yeah, so I mean, it's just because those guys are dealt with, so to speak, doesn't mean that this problem has gone away and it continues. And as we're going to talk next week, it's still a problem. And so at what point do we take a stand against it? And and what method and strategy do you do we use? I don't think hugs are like the universal cure. But but I do wonder if bringing people out of their isolation, at least and giving them social connection,
is the first step.
Raven (1:05:21)
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that
what we were talking about with the prison riots as well, is that if
away. They don't just disappear if you cancel them or if you put them in jail or whatever. They still have to exist.
Pisha (1:05:35)
Right, you separate them from society.
Raven (1:05:38)
Exactly, they still have to exist and we still have to deal with them because I think the problem is you assume that they're going to stop existing Then it's only going to get worse And so, you know, I don't know what the answer is. I guess the first step in any problem is acknowledging that you have a problem So, yeah
Pisha (1:05:57)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, I've never been to AA, but I think that's part of it. Yeah, I don't know. I probably should go. I mean, I don't drink alcohol anymore, but you know, might be good for me. But yeah, I mean, have we covered it this week?
Raven (1:06:02)
Yeah, that's what I heard. Anyway.
It's fine. Sure, maybe it's good for everybody. Who knows?
Yeah, other than that Gypsy Rose and her husband split up. I actually filed a restraining order against him. Yeah.
Pisha (1:06:25)
That's right. Dang, do we know like the grounds for the restraining order?
Raven (1:06:32)
I don't. I was trying to look that up and I wasn't able to figure it out, but who would have known? Well...
Pisha (1:06:36)
Who could have seen this coming? Oh man. Well, I guess now love isn't real. I don't believe in love anymore.
Raven (1:06:46)
I know, I'm so bombed. I did, up until Saturday.
Pisha (1:06:50)
Yeah, until they're getting a divorce and restraining or god damn it gypsy rose. Just it's a bummer.
Raven (1:06:56)
Yeah, I know it's a bummer so But it's sad There were rumors that she was with her ex, but I think that you know both of them are saying that's not true that they're just friends
Pisha (1:07:07)
God, I hope she's not with her ex. We're not talking about the ex that murdered her. Okay, good. Okay, just making sure. That would have been bad.
Raven (1:07:09)
No, not that one. No, different ex. Listen, I think that she should start her own podcast called like Dating Tips with Gypsy Rose because that girl gets around like in the best way possible. I mean that with all of the love in my heart. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely not. Yeah. I think that covers it.
Pisha (1:07:20)
Thank you.
Oh yeah, live your best life. I mean, she's, she's going for it. So I can't, I can't talk down on that. Um, well, that's, that's it for, yeah, that's it for Gypsy, Rose and Ryan. And that's it for us. We have covered Oklahoma city bombing and next week we're going to talk about how all of this Ruby Ridge Waco, the Oklahoma city bombing, how it all ties in to the January 6th insurrection.
So we will be talking about that next week. In the meantime, like, follow, subscribe, all of the social buzzwords. Do it. Yeah, hey, we've been getting some emails. Thank you guys for sending that, we appreciate it. And
Raven (1:07:54)
All right.
Yeah, send us emails, please.
Pisha (1:08:14)
until next time, stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Raven Deranger (1:08:25)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.