Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Sean Sidders, Founder of Mallard Agency, sits down with other Founders & CEOs from across Dallas-Fort Worth to discuss the ups and downs of business leadership. These honest, authentic, and practical discussions will leave you with tangible insights that will leave you feeling inspired, equipped, and encouraged.
[00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Founders in Flight. I'm super excited for you to meet Ross Paterson today. Ross is one of my neighbors right down the street here in, uh, North Texas, and, uh, him and I have had a chance to interact before, but I'm excited for you guys to be a fly on the wall in our conversation today about anything and everything related to being a founder.
We talk about what it's like to actually start up a business. We talk about all the things that he's learned in consulting clients and his journey of starting a business. He's been a con- a business consultant for over 30 years, and so, uh, just would encourage you to stay tuned, really learn a lot from what Ross has to share, and hopefully bring a lot of fulfillment to you, uh, in this episode.
Ross, so excited to, um, have you here on the podcast today. Uh, and just grateful for the [00:01:00] opportunity to sit down with you. You and I have known each other for a few years now. Sure. Um, you've actually done, uh, some coaching with my team back, uh, what was that? Maybe two, three years ago. Yeah. Um, and uh, really enjoyed that experience, and you and I have had a chance to sit down just a few times, but this will probably be our most concentrated conversation.
I'm excited for it. It might be, yeah. I look forward to it. I love, I love watching your work. You know, I think, uh, we, we've been over here when you first moved into the new place. Uh, you know, and I remember when we met you at the Lyft office- Yeah ... and you were still working in the tech thing- Uh-huh ... before you launched this, right?
So you're like- Totally ... "This, that's not what I wanna be when I grow up." Yeah. And this, this Mallard Agency came out of that. 100%. Yeah. We've been in, um, five co-working spaces, uh, if I remember correctly. Um, and three different buildings but five different actual offices within co-working spaces, so it takes, takes a lot of moving before you can actually get into a, a permanent space, as you know.
Well, yeah. You gotta create some revenue and some profitability- 100% ... too. That helps too. Let's talk about it. Yeah. Well, before we get too deep, tell me, um, can you just tell us your story, your [00:02:00] origin story, if you will? Give us the, the lay of the land. Yeah. As who is Ross, and, and what do we need to know about your journey thus far?
Okay. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a Virginian by birth. Uh, grew up in the East Coast. Uh, I went... I was able to go to college on a Army scholarship, right? So that's how I got to go to college, and then spent, uh, six years on active duty in the Army- Mm ... as an infantry officer. Mm. So, uh, you know, I learned to serve, I learned to lead, and I didn't know it at the time, but in the Army, they give you a bunch of different assignments, right?
So you do something for 12 months, and then 18 months, 12 months, so you always get to do something new, which really energized me. And then I got bored. And I took a job in corporate America. Mm. And again, I got this, these assignments where I worked in... I worked for GE. I worked in, um, the, uh, locomotive construction.
I work, uh, manufacturing, and then, uh, appliance, and then got to run a little joint venture called GE Sports Lighting Systems. Mm. Uh, and got my taste for small business there. Mm. Uh- That's valuable [00:03:00] experience. Yeah. It was a, it was beautiful, messy, uh, stressful- Yeah. ... uh, startup with a lot of different, uh, joint venture partners who had different agendas.
Yeah. So it was, uh, it was challenging, but fun. I- I like the... I like that, right? I think- Mm ... uh, ev- everybody who's an entrepreneur is a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. They like to go try hard stuff, so. You have to be. Yeah. Anyway, and I really felt like, uh, for a while, I was wrestling with my identity a little bit about, "Hey, you know, why am I here?"
Mm. "What's the big question," right? Yeah. So I left the business world for a while and just got full-time into the nonprofit world. That was my, really my first startup that I instigated. Mm. What year was that? Uh, 2003. Okay. Got it. So, um, uh, we, uh, we started doing some, uh, mobilization for some, um, sustainable development- Mm
in some places like Afghanistan- Wow ... Indonesia- Amazing ... Africa And then, you know, one of the challenges there was the fundraising piece. We had some really cool projects that were going on in, uh, Afghanistan at the time, and I just wanted [00:04:00] to say, "Hey, all this money we're taking to support the stateside team could probably go right into the projects if I could start, you know, a business that would sustain Team Patterson, et cetera."
Mm. Anyway, and so that's, uh, I had done some consulting internally with GE. I'd done some consulting in the, in the bridge to the nonprofit, and so I thought, you know, maybe I could, maybe I could, uh, start a business that would be sustainable for that. And at the time, the vision was, um, you know, hey, what if, uh, some of my donors, who were mostly small business owners, became my clients?
And then what if my future clients got engaged in this international development work with us in the, y- as we, as we went on that journey together? And that's exactly what happened over the next 10 years. Mm. You know, we had one, uh, digital marketing agency that ended up helping us start a business in Afghanistan to start employing guys and girls there, uh, with some meaningful work.
So it was pretty wild. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. Now, walk me through the transition from the nonprofit [00:05:00] into XM. Yeah. Uh, crazy, you know? I, you know, sometimes, uh, you think, how do you get there? But I think every entrepreneur has that story somewhere of the, of surviving the train wreck and then, you know, rising up, uh- Sure
to fix the next thing. We'll just hope the train wreck's not coming down, down the line. Yeah. Well, you know, the first advice I give you is, "Hey, don't start your, your, uh, don't start your business the year before the worst recession- Yes. Yeah ... man has known. I wouldn't recommend it. Yeah. So, uh, 2007 was a bad time to start.
And I had a, I had a partner who started with me, and his background was marketing and sales. Hm. And mine was the consulting and training and delivery, uh, things. And so we thought, hey, what a perfect partnership. And then, like, right after we hired an office manager, well before we needed one- Hm ... uh, he gave up- Hm
and just kinda bailed out. Like, "Hey, I'm, I'm out. I can't do this. I gotta go get a job." Um, and uh, and I was like, "Oh, okay." And, uh- Now you're left with this thing ... now I have this thing, you know. I wish, I wish we'd have decided that, you know, the month before we hired the office manager instead of the month after we hired the office manager.
Indeed. So. Yes, [00:06:00] I, I can empathize with that. So, uh, anyway, um, you know, so then it, you know, the only option was, hey, I had to learn how to market and sell. It was a real stretch for me. I'd done some... I'd stretched myself pretty hard working on fundraising, right? Asking people for money. But I, in general, I was asking for money for these big, really meaty projects that were going on- Mm
in a pretty desperate place, so it was easy for me to ask for that money. And then, uh, and then later, uh, selling was hard. And, uh, I was a f- I owned a f- we had bought up this franchise, and I bought my partner who left out of it. Uh, and, um- You know, so at least I didn't have to convince everybody. I already knew what I was doing.
We had this process, um, that we could sell- Mm ... that was pretty well tested, and, uh, but I just really was really, really, really terrible and at sales, right? You know, and so it was a struggle. Yeah. It was a struggle. And then of course, you know, selling coaching and consulting services in the middle of the worst recession ever also- Yeah
uh, challenging, right? That's a tough- Yeah ... that's [00:07:00] a tough sale. Uh. It was tough, yeah. Things were tough. Especially if you're not a natural, natural salesperson. Is anybody a natural salesperson? Oh. Maybe. Well, I suppose that's a good question to ask. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not right out of the gate, but, um, certainly people who...
Like, for me, for example, like, whenever I first got started, I never really thought of myself that way. I was in account services in an advertising agency setting. Yeah. And, um, I think, I don't think I really th- ever thought of myself as a salesperson, maybe even a, a year or two into the agency. But what I realized was that there were some transferable skills that were really helpful.
Mm-hmm. But without that context, certainly not. Like, naturally a salesperson is, is hard to do. I think one of the key things that I felt, 'cause I've tried to- started other businesses in the past, and I've tried to, um, I've tried to latch myself onto products that I wasn't necessarily as passionate about- Mm
as I am right now. And I think I discredited the amount of value that, um, that it, it has for me to really be [00:08:00] passionate about what I'm selling. True. And if I'm really believe in it and I'm passionate about it, I have this, like, personal affinity for it. Mm-hmm. That just comes through. I think, I think that's true, and but I also think, like, you know, the Olympics are going on right now.
Yeah. You watch these athletes do these incredible things, and nobody saw the work they do. Mm. And so we think, "Hey, this person's a natural." Totally. You see somebody who's good at sales. Totally. And my instinct always was, you know, from my, uh, early career, was, like, find the people who look like they know what they're doing- Mm
and go take notes. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And so that's exactly what I did. Take s- this guy figured out this sales thing, so- Surround yourself with- May- maybe he can, maybe he can teach me. Yeah. You know? And so, uh, you know, out of, really out of desperation before I had any money to pay for it, I, I realized, hey, I gotta go, I gotta go invest in some consultative sales training and coaching- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
or this business is never gonna get anywhere, right? Totally. And but I agree with your point earlier is that, um, when you're... I was just talking to some business owners at lunch today, and they've lost their passion. They've lost their joy for their business. [00:09:00] Mm. So they're having a hard time bringing, bringing the mojo to kind of get- Well, yeah
get, get out of this plateau they're on. And, uh, and I think, you know, that's certainly one of the keys for me was like, hey, I really feel like I have a lot of joy in helping people level up. Mm. And, uh, that's kind of probably one of my one thing, the one thing I'm here for. I really help people find their full potential.
That's awesome. So, um, speaking of that, um, for somebody who isn't familiar with XM, uh, Performance, just to s- lay the groundwork. Mm. And, um, what is it that you do? Who do you serve? And, uh, give us the, give us the fifth-grade version of what your business does. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, our, our big idea, like our big why at XM Performance is, hey, what if we could make, uh, small and medium businesses the best places to work in America?
Mm. You know, hey, there's a... They're well-led. Uh, the owner leads with his head and his heart, right? So it's, it's about more than just the money. Hey, but we have to make money, too. And so we're looking for those, [00:10:00] whether that comes from a faith-based, uh, entrepreneur kind of perspective or a conscious capitalistic spec- uh, perspective.
You know, those people who wanna do good with their business are who we wanna serve, right? And we want them to s- we want them, their business to be so healthy that, hey, their employees on Sunday night are going, "God, I can't wait to get to see my team on Monday." Mm. And they go home most Fridays, you know, "Oh, hey, we made a difference."
Mm. Right? So it really takes some... Those kind of businesses don't build themselves. Right. So it takes some real intentional design. Mm. It takes some strong leadership for that to happen. And then, you know, the things we're really good at, uh, helping create some strategic focus. Mm. Um, th- you know this well.
Um, the role of the owner evolves significantly as you go from startup- Mm ... to founder- Ooh, I wanna talk, I wanna talk about that ... to foundation, to growth, to transition, right? What, what your job looks like, um, changes, and, uh, you have to evolve, and you have to let go of some things that you're probably really good at.
Mm. Uh, and so, so who do we serve? Um, big vision, big heart owners who are thirsty, right? So they're still learners. They usually get a big ROI [00:11:00] from an investment with us. And, um, you know, we work with some really big tier one clients who are $800 million general contractors with 300 or 400 employees. Um, and we work with- Three to $5 million companies that are trying to get to 10, right?
When that owner gets to that point where he can't call every play anymore- Mm ... I gotta build a leadership team, you know, we gotta get a system in place, we gotta level up in a lot of ways, those are kind of our, some of our favorite challenges to solve. That's awesome. Well, I resonate with the audience that you serve, uh, because I serve them too, and I am, I mean, just, uh, I've never been more fulfilled, like, in the people that I get to work with every day from a client perspective, and also my team.
Yeah. But from my client perspective, the audience that you've outlined, they're just, um, I call them purpose-driven founders and- Sure ... and, um, people who, I love how you put it, lead with their head and their heart, uh, people who wanna do good with their business, but they are [00:12:00] lifelong learners. They're- Absolutely
you know, uh, uh, just infectiously curious, and they just, you know, will kind of never stop. Um, but also a lot of them have, uh, a lot that I learn from, you know, people who have good balance, uh, prioritize their family- Mm ... um, have like, uh, l- allow their faith to really step into their business and, and, and guide it and lead it.
Mm. Um, I really admire that about this group of people that you and I get to serve every day, which is- Right ... um, is awesome. Uh, the one thing that you were talking about in there that I, I mentioned I wanted to talk more about is the, the ever-changing, I guess, role of a founder in a business. Mm. Um, I would be curious to hear, uh, what are you observing whenever you say stuff like that?
What do you, what do you see when you talk to your clients, and, um, what do you think, you know, people should learn from that if they're stepping into the entrepreneurial journey for the first time or they're early on? Well, I think, um, when you're the startup [00:13:00] guy, you do everything. Yeah. Uh, you might be in your living room, uh, garage, whatever, whatever that startup looks like for you if you don't have a rich uncle.
I didn't have a rich uncle, right? So we started it from the living room, uh, which was good 'cause when the recession hit, like, hey, our overhead was pretty low. Yeah. Uh, anyway, but I think, hey, that startup guy's a hustle and grind. He... "I gotta go do everything and move stuff." And then, you know, when, when the foundation starts to get settled, now I have to be, I have to be a delegator.
I have to break things down, right? And I think, you know, at the lowest rung, there's administrative work that goes on with the business that, hey, you need to get yourself out of, right? I don't know anybody who, um, wrote a book about their breakthrough as an entrepreneur because they got the level 10 badge in QuickBooks.
You know? Yeah. Yeah, so, uh, you need to understand cash flow, but you don't have to be a good bookkeeper. Mm. Yeah, totally. And so at, at the administrative level. And at some point, operationsly- operationally, you gotta get yourself out of day-to-day operations, and then depending upon the [00:14:00] business model, marketing, and then sales and then leadership, right?
So you just kinda have to think about, you know, what that happens. So where I see people struggle is, hey, if you come out of a natural sales background when you start your business, you'll really struggle with operations and building the team and getting things done. And then we have ace, um, professionals who are architects and engineers and IT, uh, even medical and lawyers who love doing the work, but doing the work and running the business are radically different.
Mm. And when I tell that person, "Hey, you gotta learn marketing and sales." Like, "I don't wanna learn marketing and sales." I'm like, "Okay, you should probably go work for somebody who does." You know? Yeah. Because it's very difficult to- Mm ... uh, even, even to manage, um, an agency like Mallard- Mm ... I gotta know enough about marketing and sales.
Mm. Or I'll be a terrible customer for you. Right. And because I'll say, "Oh, well, why aren't my sales up?" Yeah. And you say, "Well, you didn't hire, you didn't hire Mallard- Yeah ... to close deals for you, did you?" Yeah. I'm like, "Well, no." And so, you know, so some of those things. You know, hey, we meet entrepreneur owners all the time who are technical in their [00:15:00] nature, and they don't...
They probably can't articulate well, hey, the difference between marketing and sales. Mm. And I read a alarming statistic the other day, like 82% of the people in the workforce are being led and managed by people who have never been trained to lead and manage. Wow. So, you know, leading people and delegating work and giving people feedback and pulling the team together, raising that collective intelligence of your team, that you don't come out of the womb knowing how to do that, right?
You gotta learn how to do that. Mm. And pretty soon, you get 20 or 30 people on your team. Hey, it doesn't matter how much work you can do anymore. It doesn't matter. Totally. And you, you gotta kinda put this old toolbox down- Mm-hmm ... and you gotta pick up this new one. Mm-hmm. Well, I don't wanna put it down. You gotta give this old toolbox away- Yeah
to different people now. Mm-hmm. Maybe some things that you're really good at. Yeah. Uh, you're, you're creative, and so, like, sometimes delegating the creative can be hard for you. Mm-hmm. Like, "Oh, I'd've done that different." Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's so funny you're mentioning this. Um, I was... Have you read the book Who Not How?
I'm familiar with it. [00:16:00] Okay. I haven't read it. The concept. Yeah. And the title does a pretty good job of explaining- Yeah ... what the concept is. And I'm, you know, of course familiar with, um, who's the guy? Ben Hardy. Uh, or, uh, Dan Sullivan. Dan Sullivan is the- Uh, yeah. Dan Sullivan and then- ... uh, entrepreneurial coach of the- The, the coolest part of that book is that the, the introduction introduces the concept, of course.
Yeah. And then it's, and then it explains why Ben Hardy wrote the book for Dan Sullivan- Yeah ... because he's a better who to do the writing- Sure ... whereas Dan was the better who to do the actual thought leadership. Yeah, yeah. I thought that was really... I liked how they, I guess, drank from their own medicine for that, and it really, like- Yeah
but, but the reason I bring it up is I read that t- about two weeks ago, and, um, I was just chatting, like, maybe 45 minutes ago with my director of brand management, Dan, and I w- I found myself going to him and saying, "Hey, I have this idea. I see this thing. I really think we should be doing it differently, uh, for a client."
Mm-hmm. "And, [00:17:00] um, here's a bunch of ideas, and here's exactly how I would do it. Now let's go get start." Y- I, and I, I caught myself, and I was like, "Wait a second. Um, Dan is much better at what I'm doing right now." Mm-hmm. And, and so I stopped and I said, "Dan, I'm gonna stop mid-sentence and just say to you," this is a real story by the way, just that I'm, I need to just be self-aware and, and note that I'm not doing my job right now.
And, uh, my job is to, uh, help equip you to do the best possible job for these clients, and I trust you. Mm-hmm. Yet, I will also, uh, I, I want you to be eagerly pursuing my feedback on how we're doing in that account, and I, I'm gonna let you lead, and I'm gonna let you run. If you ever need ideas, feel free to come to me, but I trust you.
And I think that that is the thing. That, that tangible ca- that moment of catching myself is what I didn't do for the first three years. Yeah. Maybe even the last time you and I chatted more s- you know, substantively, I would say I was [00:18:00] maybe, like, right in the middle of that, of that switch. Do you know what I mean?
I do know what you mean. It's, and it's a, it's a struggle for everybody, I think, at some point. You know, like, um, letting go and trusting people to do things and understanding that, hey, the important work you have to do, this new toolbox work of strategy- Mm-hmm ... of getting the team aligned, of, you know, thinking about, hey, how we're gonna get the next level of clients in here, um, if you're not working on it.
Uh, there's three things I say the CEO, owner of the business has to do: long-term strategy and planning- Get the right people in the right place, and then set the rhythm and s- and routines that run the business. And the thing I always say is, "Who's working on that when you're not?" And inevitably it's like, "Hey, nobody's working on that if I'm not."
Mm. And so, um, so and then who's working on that if you don't know how? Yeah. You know, which is, which are some of the problems that- Mm ... we try to help solve. And but but your awareness, y- it's grown over time. But what happened probably, and this happens in all of our clients, so I'm not a... Now I don't know the history of Mallard, but what happens [00:19:00] if, if you can't overcome that instinct- Mm
the really good, strong A players are gonna leave, you know? And- Totally. I've seen it ... 'cause they don't wanna be micromanaged. Totally. They, they need that freedom to be, to be themselves- Mm ... and you need to be the one who goes, "Hey, you have permission to do this." Mm-hmm. "And can I ask, can I ask for permission to give some input?"
You know, and you just m- need to make sure that you kinda- Yeah ... stay in your lanes and let people do some things like that. And- Yeah ... I can be pretty driven and, uh But my team's pretty comfortable giving me the direct feedback about, "Am I doing this? Are you doing this, Ross?" I'm like, "Oh." Totally. You can do this.
I th- I think with that relation- like, that, that relationship of, um, your team managing up to you in such a way to where they feel comfortable to get- to give that feedback, I think this is a nuance, but early on, I think I thought that all I had to do was verbally say to my team, "You should... You can feel comfortable giving me feedback.
You know that, right?" And after I said that, expecting them to just, um, to believe [00:20:00] me and to do it. Mm-hmm. And what I didn't realize is, is that where I actually was, was, um, accomplishing what I was trying to accomplish by saying that to them and giving that to them, their, their d- the directive is the first time they give me feedback, how do I react?
Yeah. And the second and the third and the fourth, and, um, I think I received it, but I think I pushed back more than I probably should- Mm ... have given, than, than I, than I probably noticed in the moment upon reflection. Sure. And, uh, and I think that, um, it's really, I always admire teams who have this... I admire leaders and, and teams who function in a way to where the leader gets consistent feedback in a way that's truly constructive, not complaining, but in- but truly constructive that's in an effort to make them better at their job.
And, um, I mostly admire that because it took the leader receiving feedback on a regular basis and, and proving to his team, his or her team, that, um, that they actually will receive it [00:21:00] well. That's why the team feels comfortable to do it in the first place. It doesn't matter if you tell them to do it and they, uh, if you, if the first time they do it, you shut it down, it's, it's not gonna necessarily work.
Yeah. I think I, I coach people all the time, owners of companies, to just, uh, use this simple phrase: "Hey, is there anything I can do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me?" Hmm. You know? And the first time you're asking that question, they might not answer. They might not feel comfortable answering that.
Right. But if you, if you, you have some coaching or, or a session with them or working on something, I say, "I want you to know, Sean- Hmm ... is there anything I can do or stop doing to make it easier to work with me? Please give me that feedback." Right. Right? And just ask it repeatedly- Right ... until they do, and then what you said is exactly true.
Make sure you don't overreact when they do give you that feedback. Totally. Then you'll shoot yourself in the foot for sure. Yeah. You worked so hard to get there. You might as well let it be. Yeah. Um, that's interesting. So- It's so unusual, though. Like, I- Hmm ... we had a new employee, an office manager, and at the end of our 30-day kind of onboarding coaching session, I said, "Hey, is there anything I can do or stop doing that, to make it easier to work with me?"
And she looked at me like- ... [00:22:00] "I'm not answering that question." You know? There's no way. Yeah. And she'd been in a very toxic place before. It was not safe- Hmm ... to give the owner of the company she worked for before any kind of feedback or pushback or- Hmm ... "Hey, I have a better way." Yeah. And so it took her 60 days to get comfortable with that, and then, uh, I remember her teaching, uh, one of the new teammates coming on board, like, "Just tell him."
Yeah. "Just tell him what you want." "He'll, he'll do it. You won't believe, you don't believe me, I'm true, but it's true." And so- That's awesome. That's always fun to see. Tell me, um- In your, uh, in the current state of your business, you, you as a leader, less of you coaching others and more your journey of, of an entrepreneur- Yeah
and where you currently sit today, what are some of the, what are some of the challenges that you're facing right now? Like, just, uh, assuming you're willing to go there. Yeah, no, I'm... I mean- What, what, what's going on in your world? I think, um, our, our client profile's changing a little bit. Hmm. Um, and, uh, and I have a intense desire to, um, [00:23:00] you know, I...
There's a lot of people that do what I do in their one-man offices or, uh, or they have a very strict, uh-
They have a very strict model that they force everywhere. Hmm. And, um, and I don't wanna do that, right? I wanna be, uh, I wanna be a very, um, uh, structureless approach. And so, um, there's a couple things that have been difficult. Um, the consultative sales- Mm ... uh, is difficult to reproduce. Totally. I studied it really hard for about five years to get good at it, and I forgot how hard it was.
So now, um, we're having a little trouble reproducing that, right? And probably the best, um, salesperson that I've ever had on my team is a teammate, Bonnie Gambaro. She's worked with us for about eight years, and she came in and said, "I'm not doing marketing and sales." I said, "Okay, that's fine, 'cause I have these other three people.
They need to do a lot more marketing and sales, and your job- ... is to make sure we have [00:24:00] lots of time to do that." Yeah. Right? And so- Yeah ... uh, and so, um, uh, it's, it's a very, uh, complex sale, right? And so you can't just hire a guy who's done B2B product or service sales because it's not the same conversation- Right
uh, with a business owner. So that, that's been difficult. Hmm. But we're making some progress on that. Hmm. And then, um, I've been doing the consulting for, in, in a lot of different contexts, for probably 30 years, and so there's some things that, like, I can just see- Uh, because of the wisdom that's hard to reproduce, so there's this, there's this, "Hey, we...
I need to get some of this stuff out of my head." Yeah. And the, the basic... the 10 things we solve, problems we solve the most, we're starting to put some playbooks together. Mm. And, you know, so that I can have a, an apprentice consultant go with me some, and I can go, "Hey, watch one, do one- Mm ... teach one," right?
Kind of, um, approach. What are the skills you look for in... 'Cause both of those things you just mentioned, c- c- uh, consultative sales as well as consulting. Yeah. Both of those rev- resi- revolve around somebody who's great [00:25:00] at, I'm gonna call it unhindered strategy. Mm. Uh, int- intuit- like, intuitive strategy. Ah.
Um, what are some of the things, in, in order for you to grow, in order for me to grow, I, I've been thinking about this a lot too. How do I, especially with AI and just, like, my clients are re- are basically demanding that we be excellent at strategy. Mm. That's, that's the key thing that I think that we really bring to the table.
I actually was just chatting with the guest before you. Him and I sat down for lunch after his podcast recording, and we were talking about... I was like, you know, "Tell me about your experience so far." He's a client of mine and, and he was saying, um, "The, the art that you guys produce is super valuable and fun, and the stories that you guys tell through video is great, and the websites and all of that.
But if you guys weren't able to actually take our business model and, and simplify it down to language that my internal team and my external clients understand, then it wouldn't have been worth it." Right. And I'm like, "Okay. [00:26:00] You know, then, then we gotta be able to grow a team that can do that at scale."
Right. That, what... So that's kinda what you're saying. What, what do you look for in, in talent, in people, um, whenever you're trying to, trying to grow in that way? What are some of the skillsets you look for? Uh, I think, um, we've had some success because we work in small and medium businesses. Um, people who've lived there- Mm
uh, have lived in that space, you know, uh, have, have made a better transition. Uh, for us also, like- There's two things. Like, um, they gotta love people enough to, like, "Hey, we gotta help people when they're hurting." Mm. So there's gotta be some instinct about, "Hey, I, I wanna help people get better." Um, and I don't know, like, some people...
We've, we've had a couple people come and go from our business who wanted to be the consultant- Yeah ... or a trainer or a leadership coach, or they wanted that for them more than they wanted it for- Who they were serving ... the people they serve. Yeah. Right? And any time that ego is that high, it's gonna be a problem.
Mm. [00:27:00] And then, um, and I think you said the word intuitive, and I think there's two things that are kinda difficult. You, we need, I need to assess them when I'm hiring is, like, "Hey, do they have initiative? Do they have an intuition about what needs to happen next?" You know? And I can show them the form, and so there's...
We can simplify a lot of the complex things we do down to a starting point. Um, but every organization is pretty radically different, but humans aren't. Mm. And so the humans that are in the organization are, are the same, and there's some things we know about humans and organizational performance, uh, that are pretty simple that other people don't know.
Mm. Like, just think about this. Um, 82% of the people going to work every day are l- being led by a leader or manager who's never been trained for that job- Yeah ... and doesn't understand the basics of that. Now, in your small business, here's what happens. "Hey, here's this person who's been here for eight years, so hey, they really know me.
They really know our clients. They know our business, so I'm gonna make her the manager of this department." And, [00:28:00] uh- Mm ... and, and all the sudden, she's terrible. And the other example, they do this all the time, "Hey, we make the salesperson the sales manager." Mm. And this person who c- you just lost your best salesperson, and you just hired a terrible sales manager.
Totally. And, and, and it, and, and it's a, it's a, it's a debacle. So, uh, so our, our people, um, uh, are curious about people and organizational health, and they've been in good places and bad places before, so they know the difference. Mm. And it's really, uh, quite a, quite a mix on how we, on how our teams come together over the, over the years.
You know, one guy is a professional trainer. Mm. But he comes from such a positive, passionate, help-people perspective. It was easy to teach him- Right ... to be cur- to be more curious, right? Mm. I, I say our best consultants are competent, and they're curious, and they can connect. Mm. Because if you can, if you're competent and you solve one problem- Mm-hmm
then the clients will be like, "Oh, I got, I got a lot of other problems." You know? Yeah. "Hey, can you help us with this one?" And I'm like, "Well, I can't help you with that one, but Sean and the Mallard team can help you with that one." Yeah. You know? And we're, you [00:29:00] just gotta be... You wanna be in that position where you're the trusted advisor, so you, can they give that trusted advisor- Yeah
role? Because that's not the I know everything role. Mm. Mm. You know? That's like, like, "I know all the answers." That's not what they're looking for. Yeah. They're, "Hey, can you help me relieve this pain? I don't want you to come run my company." Right. "I want you to help me solve these problems." So it's, uh, it's an interesting mix, you know, and, um, and small business owners And their teams handle things radically different on purpose.
Our kinds of clients, you know, the compassionate ones that you're talking about, um, they're, they're, they're in business for different reasons, so it's not just like- Right Top four, you know, the, the fab four of consulting, KPMG consultants coming in and going, "Here's the structure. Here's the pay grade.
This is what you gotta do, this, this, this. Here's the answer. Just do this. Here's my playbook." Um, that's almost never how our engagements go. Right. You know? Totally. Yeah. I feel like the thinking about the, like, what are the [00:30:00] things about a strategist that make them really great? Like, practically speaking, I always try to reverse engineer it, and like the thing, the common denominators that I've seen are the best strategists I've worked with are the ones who can ask the best questions.
It's all about the questions. They gotta be able to ask the best questions and be just not... They can't just be interested in being curious. They have to actually be, like, professionally curious. Absolutely. And then the second thing I would say is that they should be able to regurgitate back to somebody, like a comp- like a complex ans- whenever you ask a really great question, a complex answer comes out of the client or whoever's across the table from you.
Right. And whenever you... You should be able to listen to that and then regurgitate it back to them in a way that's much more simple and much more brief. And I feel like if you can... And then wait and listen to see what, if, if you got it right or not. Mm-hmm. And actually be curious enough to say, "I'm gonna say back to you exactly what you just said to me in a way that I think is what you said, but I want you to confirm."
Mm-hmm. "Here's how I heard you." "Uh, it actually is this [00:31:00] little bit of nuance." Perfect. Let's explore that a little bit more. Yeah. That to me, is where I feel like real, truly, like I, I, I almost feel silly saying that it's that simple because it, in my mind, it's sometimes I think I deal with this idea of like strategy to me feels inherent.
Like it feels inherent. It feels, it feels like something that I'm just, it's just naturally what I do, you know? Yeah. But, um... And so therefore, I almost discredit it in my mind in terms of, in terms of its power. Mm-hmm. Um, but the truth of the matter is, is that it is so powerful to be able to take complex things and make them simple, and it's also a amazingly powerful thing to be able to uncover complex things.
Hmm. And, um, I'm curious if you have any thoughts or things you would add on top of that. Um, I, I like the, the complexity of strategy, right? I, I tell business owners all the time, "Hey, there's nothing really-" Hmm ... "so complicated about anything we do individually that you can't figure it out," right? Right. The complexity [00:32:00] comes when you have to be six inches deep in 134 places.
Right? That's the complexity- Yeah ... for, for the business owner. And so there's some cornerstones of strategy, right? I think, I think in the end, if you can simplify strategic planning down to, "Hey, why are we here?" Hmm. "What makes us better, unique, and different in the marketplace?" Mm-hmm. Uh, where are we now?
Where are we going? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who's responsible for what? Simple questions. How are we gonna get there, right? Mm-hmm. There's six questions. Mm-hmm. And, and when you, when you try to, when you simplify it down to just six things and say, "Hey, let's just get some really-" clear, concise, and compelling answers to these six things, then the plan can emerge from that Indeed.
But sometimes people haven't laced that together, or they think strategy's this big complex thing that only, you know, people with PhDs from Harvard understand. Mm-hmm. And it's just not true. Um, you know, I always tell people, uh, when I was in the Army, I was in the infantry, right? And you know who they put in the infantry?
The people who are stronger than they are smart, right? And so, hey, um, so [00:33:00] everything we did had to be really simple and reproducible. Mm. And so, um, you know, I think small business is like that, and a lot of times we have the simple things about strategy wrong, and not aligned, and, uh, uh, we, like, we have what we ca- what I call business owners' phantom clarity.
They think they know what they want, and they think they've communicated clearly what they want, and nobody in their team has any idea what they want. 100%. I feel like I see that every day- Yeah ... is kinda the way it feels. Yeah. Anyway, and so, uh, there's some repetition and things involved in, in fixing that.
And, uh, and so, you know, hey, I was always thinking, hey, move from simple to complex. Hey, mo- most of the time when we're in organizations that are not performing- Mm ... uh, at, at their potential, there's some simple things that aren't right. Mm-hmm. And when we can get the simple things lined up, then the more complex things become easier, uh, in general.
So, you know, w- I think one of our, uh, one of our unique approaches in the marketplace is I'm not so stuck with a model. Mm. We come in, and we'll make an honest assessment with, with [00:34:00] the ownersh- owner or leadership team. Like, hey, what's really the biggest opportunity, or what's the most pressing obstacle?
We can't work on everything at one time. Mm. So, you know, one owner was like, "Hey, we've grown significantly. Our, our revenue generating machine, our performance is high, but if we get any... We're already losing our culture. And so I don't wanna get any bigger if we're gonna sacrifice our culture to do that."
Mm. I'm like, "Oh, this is one of my favorite problems to solve." Yeah. You know? So I said, "Hey, what is your culture?" Yeah, right. Totally. And so he has some ideas that, of course, as the founder, they're in his heart. Mm. But every time he talked about them, he uses little different words. Mm. And so he thought he, you know, that the culture language was nailed.
Mm. And so I was training the 11 of his executives, and I had the guys who'd been there for two years in one corner, the guys who've been there for five or six years in one corner, and the people who've been there for 10 years in another corner. I go, "Hey, just write up on the wall the culture here," right?
And we had three very different charts, right? Yeah. So when I put that in front of the CEO, I go, uh, [00:35:00] "I think we got a language problem." Yeah. And he didn't believe me until- Until, until you show him, right? Yeah. Well, you have to be able to... I feel like what you did there is you just, you made it, made a, uh, an invisible problem visible.
Exactly. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, and that's one of our favorite things to talk about because, man, once you get to a certain point and the f- the founders can't be the culture bearers anymore, we gotta have new culture champions, man. You have to codify a language. You have to teach people how to be culture champions, right?
You really have to build it into the systems and structure of the organization for that to be a multiplier, but we have probably a dozen of our clients over the last 15 years who have really nailed that- Mm ... at a critical growth point, and it was the multiplier. That allowed them to go, "Oh, hey, we can, we can make an acquisition in Lubbock because we know the culture we want," you know, "And we can go teach them how to, how to live like we wanna live," right?
And, you know, we can do that in a small business, but hey, the best companies in the world work on that really hard, too. Chick-fil-A, Southwest before the [00:36:00] Private equity buyouts. Totally. Yeah. I remember whenever I was, uh, you and I sat down at your office, and we were... You drew something on a whiteboard. Mm-hmm.
And it was the stages of entrepreneurship. Yeah. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah. Um- We draw it all the time. Uh, I- I remember your response. What did I say? You said, "I feel seen for the first time." That sounds like me. I feel somebody... I feel like I feel understood for the first time in my life.
Yeah. Yeah. That... I, I, um... The thing that reminded me of it is I was, um, probably doom scrolling on Instagram or something, and I saw, uh, I, I wanna say it was Alex Hormozi. I'm not totally sure. I don't remember who it was, but somebody was draw- drawing a similar chart, um, of this, um, initial viability followed by this, "Oh, my gosh, what's happening?"
Almost as if you're coming over the other end of the rollercoaster, and then you get to the bottom, and you're like, it's this moment of I'm gonna quit or I'm gonna keep going or- Mm-hmm. Um, it, it was similar. Um, but, uh, walk me [00:37:00] through the stages that you see for a founder, uh, if you don't mind. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, and then I'll have questions from there, but... Sure. Well, you know, there's a startup mode, and, uh, you can't teach an opportunity, an entrepreneur anything in startup mode because they think they already know everything. 100%. Yeah. They finally have hit, reached the pinnacle. Yeah, they s- They're, uh... It's like, uh, trying to teach a 23-year-old man anything, right?
They already know everything. Uh, somewhere between 23 and 35, they figure out they got a lot to learn. Anyway. Yeah. Uh, yeah, and so i- in the startup mode, um, they don't know what they don't know yet, and so they're, they're hustling, and they're grinding. They got a great idea, and they might be getting some traction.
And then at some point, startup turns into foundation building. "Hey, we're gonna put some cornerstones. We're gonna start laying out this foundation that we can grow from." Uh, and then, you know, once that's happening, we get into growth mode. And so growth mode really means, "Hey, we have to take our business development, our marketing and sales, and we have to multiply that."
So we have to have a marketing and sales system that consistently drives revenue, and now we have to get more people doing that in more places the [00:38:00] right way. Mm-hmm. And then once that revenue starts going up, um, then it becomes a leadership and organizational problem, right? And I have to start leading teams of people.
I have to start... And even more complex when we get higher is I have to lead through leaders, which is about 10 times more com- complex than leading a team. Um, uh, and so, like, there's just a level of complexity that goes up in that, right? And the, the skills and what the owner's role in that, uh, business is several things.
And the last stage, I call it T. It's a transition stage, and, um, in that transition stage, um, you could transition by multiplying your business into another realm. Uh, you might, uh, you might sell your business and exit, right? You might, uh, if you're like, uh, you and me, we might use our first business to fund our second, next big idea- Mm-hmm
I call it, right? Mm-hmm. But it doesn't really matter if you wanna multiply it or sell it or, or use it to fund your next business. To get to that point where you get, can build up to where, "Hey, I can be the CEO of this business, and most of the processes run without me And we have [00:39:00] playbooks and we have people who- Yeah
run things. There's, there's a bunch of who, not how, going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we've built that system, process, and structure of that business. Now, now we have some options that we don't have in the startup foundation growth phase. Mm-hmm. Uh, because, hey, we have this, we have d- we have a business now, and, um- Where do you see most people getting stuck the m- you know, most often?
Obviously, there's vulnerabilities in every stage, but- Sure ... where do you see there being kind of that, like, most significant amount of turmoil happening? I think in startup and foundation, they don't, they don't build a network of other entrepreneurs, right? They don't have anybody to tell them, "Have you really looked at that from, from over here?"
Mm. "Have you really looked at that idea from over here?" You know? Uh, there's an old saying, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. I go, "Well, unless your strategy is, you know, VCR repair." Then, then it doesn't matter. Yeah, right. Doesn't matter how good your culture is, you know? Your strategy's gonna starve your culture to death, so, uh...
Anyway, so there's no, uh, one thing. So, [00:40:00] like, I think f- at some point you think that there's a, there's a little bit of ego, and it's like, "Oh, I've worked for other people before. I can do it better." Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you just have no idea how complex that really is when you get into the business ownership role.
And so, so in the startup and foundation phase, it's like, there's not enough outside perspective on what you're doing, and so you can really get trapped, um, uh, accidentally isolated- Mm-hmm ... to fresh ideas and how are the things, how are things really gonna... what's gonna create that breakthrough. Once you get your foundation built, um, you know, you can do that with your network, with some previous work relationships, whatever.
But at some point, for your business to scale, you gotta master marketing and sales and business development. Mm-hmm. You know? So, uh, learning how to do those, those things well enough so that I can even delegate that work or outsource it to an agency like yours. Um, I've seen a lot of people spend a lot of money, uh, with no ROI, because no- nobody from the agency asks the strategic questions, "Hey, what are we really trying to do here?"
Right? They're like, "Hey, do you have pay-per-click ads?" "I don't." "You need them." Yeah. I'm like, [00:41:00] "Why do I need them?" Yeah. You know? They haven't even asked me about my client yet. Yeah, right. You know? And- Totally. Hmm ... and so, so somewhere at that, which you're, as you're transitioning from foundation to growth, if you can't really master marketing and sales and understand how business development works for your client and your market space, you're in trouble, right?
You're probably gonna plateau right about there. And then, you know, when it starts growing, if you can't develop as a leader of people and processes and pick up that new toolbox of leadership, uh, you're gonna stall out there, right? 'Cause things are, things are gonna start breaking down- Hmm ... um, because it's all, all still a little dependent on you, maybe, and you're making all the calls on the shots.
And then, you know, um- And then I think at the highest level, you know, can you really hire vice president, general manager level people into your organization and maintain the culture, right? So there's this real battle you gotta- Yeah ... have if you're bringing outside talent in at the highest levels to make sure we vetted them for culture alignment first.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then I... And then, or I mean, you really have to be intentionally, like five years [00:42:00] before you need it, you need to develop that high potential young man or woman into your COO, but you have to be doing that intentionally 'cause, like if- Right ... you grow really fast and they're not ready for that, you can't microwave that.
Mm-hmm. You know? You can't microwave that leadership wisdom. Right. Uh- I see that. I... And it's probably one of the hardest things that I've had to do in my journey is... And I feel like it, it's almost like you have to go through seasons of trying, failing, learning, just like any other thing, but it just happens to involve people in this case, um, of- It's hard, isn't it?
It is so hard. It's like- I tell people all the time, like, I've lost a lot of money on some deals that didn't go well. Yeah. But, you know, I lose sleep over, hey, I gotta have a really tough conversation with somebody that's gonna be- Right ... potentially life-changing for them- Right ... when I tell you, "Hey- Totally
you're not gonna make it." Well, and it's like once you've gotten to the place to where you've actually, like, uh, well, first learned what you just shared and then embraced it, then made a decision to hire somebody based off of that, and then some factor, [00:43:00] whether it r- is in regards to your leadership and trusting them to implement what you were, you know, hopefully having delegating down- delegating to them to, to execute or, uh, they're, you know, in a biz dev capacity, maybe it's like their inability to be able to, you know, sell enough revenue to hit their commission goals and get- Mm-hmm
to their on-track earnings. You know? Mm-hmm. Like w- practically speaking, that, that is one of the things that I think in, uh, business development for businesses our size that can be really challenging is kind of like- Absolutely ... how do I set up a commission structure in a way that protects the business but simultaneously keeps this person here long enough for them to actually see it through?
'Cause you know it takes time. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so, um, I think s- a lot of times what I've noticed is that you establish a leadership team. Here we go. I'm delegating everything, and then why did all three of them leave? You know? Yeah. And all of a sudden, now I'm back in the saddle of execution, back in the saddle of sales, back in...
Here we go, marketing. You know, like all these different things are now I'm, I'm back. [00:44:00] And then you, you know, almost get so busy because you get thrown back into the, into the ocean that you have to wait six months before you even try again. Then you bring in more leadership team, and then that fails, and then you have to do it again.
And I think that what I've really... I think what, what I've learned along the way is that- Every single time there's some sort of lesson that can be applied to the next time you try. Absolutely. And probably actually multiple things, not just one singular thing. And, um, the important thing is to, in, in my case, like speaking, I, I like practical, practical next steps.
I document it so that whenever it gets down to the actual I'm onboarding a new leadership team member, and I'm on- this person is a significant investment for me, and I'm trusting them with significant portion of my business. Like, what did I learn last time? Because honestly, I, I probably have forgotten.
Um- Yeah ... and so I try to document that. I try to be honest with whoever's coming into my organization and say, "This is something I've struggled with in the past. This is what I've learned from it. [00:45:00] Here is what I want you to watch out for in me, and I want you to feel comfortable coming to me. Please try to do that and, and see how I react."
And then watching myself out, y- watching out for myself whenever they do actually come back and give me that feedback- Yeah ... inevitably- Yeah ... to actually be able to receive that well and to remember that that's what I had asked them to do. Yeah. Um, obviously not a perfect science 'cause I'm in the midst of it.
You're in the midst of it. So many others are in the midst of it, but one of the key learnings for me. Have you learned anything about, about how to delegate well, how to learn from those successes and failures of, of trying to get others to do that? Yeah, you know what? We, we have a really unique perspective on that because, like, hey, we're working with 30 or 40 businesses a year, so I don't just get my reps.
Totally. I get to watch hundreds of reps every year, right? Yeah. So we watch, uh, people struggle with these things. I think, um, first I would just say cultural alignment's the most important thing when you're hiring a leader- Mm ... 'cause they're gonna bring- So true ... some culture. Mm. So if you don't have a way to assess, hey, what, what do they value personally and how does that line up with the values and [00:46:00] culture of the business, you're in trouble- Mm
already. How do you assess that? Uh, well, for instance, um, uh- You know, one of our, um, one of our values is, um, transformation, right? We want, we want, uh, long-term transformation. We wanna make a generational impact on the people in the business, right? So we want them to love working in their business so much that their kids feel it.
Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. And that, that's a big deal, right? Yeah. So, um, if people don't think big like that, I can't teach them, teach them to think like that. If people don't love people... I mean, it's really, hey, do you love people enough to really go work through some hard stuff with them and get the dysfunction flushed out of this team so that they can, so they can have the joy of work coming back again.
If we, if they're, if they don't even think like that, then I can't, I can't teach them to think like that. Um, uh, we really, um, have a, have a, uh, have a value of, hey, deliver results, right? We call it give extreme value. Mm. And, uh, and so I, I don't ask people, "Hey, one of our [00:47:00] values is give extreme value," first.
You know, I would ask you, "Hey, Sean, what's one of the most fulfilling things you've ever done at work?" And I wanna hear somebody who went above and beyond what the customer wanted- Mm-hmm ... and took the extra steps to go deliver more than they, uh, were supposed to, right? Mm. And, uh, I don't give them the answers, but I, but I'm asking very specific questions.
You might ask somebody, "Hey, who's the best leader you ever worked for?" 'Cause when they describe that leader that they really enjoyed working for, they're gonna tell you what their values are- Totally ... and how they were aligned with that leader. Yeah, yeah. And so it's gonna flush out some of that. Now, they might not use the same, um, sticky language you've developed for Mallard culture words.
Mm-hmm. Sure. But they're gonna talk about some ideas- Right ... and you're looking for that alignment in those things. Right. Mm. And if you don't have any alignment in that- Mm ... I think you're in trouble. And if you don't know how to assess for that, you, you, then you're just gonna s- test some of their s- technical skills in their resume.
Right. And I would say that's probably i- less important than that. And then I would... You know, it depends upon who you're interviewing. Like, if you're in- interviewing a high-level leader, uh, for, for a job, I [00:48:00] might ask them, "Hey, Sean" What, what's your approach gonna be the first 30 days here? Mm-hmm. I'm not gonna tell them what to do the first 30 days.
I'm gonna ask them, "Hey, strategically, how do you as a leader come take over a, you know, come, uh, insert yourself into a team and organization," right? And I wanna know how they think about that, and I'm looking for some servant leader language like, "Oh, man, I'm gonna come listen. I need to get to know people first."
Yeah. "I need to build relationship capital. I need to build trust. I need to... I wanna hear... Well, tell me how you do that," right? I'm gonna be listening for those kinds of things, right? There was a guy who wanted to get a promotion in one of our client's places one time. He goes, "Hey, Ross, give me the title, and then I'll be able to get the work done."
And I said, "Hey, Bill, get the work done- Yeah ... then we'll give you the title." Yeah. You know, and his problem was he didn't have relationship capital with the people. Mm. And he thought the title was gonna give him the authority to get things done- Yeah ... in this organization. I said, "Hey, it's not the title." Yeah.
And so, so y- y- I'm looking for people to do that. And then I think, you know, I, I've watched a lot of small business owners, they hire the expert, and they're like, "Oh, thank God, take this from me." Yeah. You know? Right. And they just abdicate. Mm. [00:49:00] And I think it's probably, hey, when, when, when that guy's not doing it, you're probably the one doing it, so there needs to be really intentional 30, 60, 90-day transition plan where we're just really gonna work very closely together those first 90 days because one, that will accelerate them up into this, into the role- Yeah
and you'll be able to step back. Mm. And two, if you hire the wrong person, you'll flush it out- Mm-hmm ... in the first 90 days and not wait a year- Mm ... to figure out you hired the wrong person. Mm-hmm. So. One of the things you were talking... I mean, you were talking about, um, like, culture-based interview questions, which, uh, I, I think- Some of the people I talk to, they say to me, "Sean, like I, I feel like I asked all the right questions in my..."
'Cause I, I get the chance to coach a couple of other agency owners, and they say, "I feel like I, I, um, have asked all the right questions. I feel like I found people who are like the perfect fit for our culture, but they just like cannot do the job." Yeah. And I think one of the temptations for people who are, I'll speak for myself, people like me, [00:50:00] uh, is to ask questions that I- The way I hear myself asking the question is that it's a competency-based question, but the way that I'm asking it is actually a culture-based question.
Mm. And I almost am like I have this bias towards culture. Like, I, I- Sure ... like care so deeply about culture that I'm asking so many interview questions, uh, that have to do with culture. And even the ones that I'm trying to ask about competency, I'm almost feeding them- Yeah ... the answer in an effort to get them because I love them from a culture standpoint.
You know what I mean? What would you say to, to somebody who has the opposite problem of asking too many culture-based questions and not enough competency-based questions? Well, I think, uh, it's pretty common. Mm. Uh, what we see in the small, medium business space, well, even in some of the larger companies, like is like the, the, there's, the candidate assessment process is just terrible, right?
Yeah. "Oh, this is a really good guy." "Well, why do you like him?" "He's just a good guy." He's a good guy. You know? So that, that's where it goes. You know, "I just [00:51:00] have a feeling." I'm like, oh, that's a terrible way to make a good hire. So I think, you know- assessing candidates for job. I mean, if there's critical technical things they need to be able to do, test them for it.
Yeah. You know? Uh, you know, in, in the technical side of things, there's all kinds of online things we can kind of test things for. We worked with a electrical contractor, a very high-end, um, systems integrator, and so there was everything from basic V equals I times R to P- PLC programming, right? That some of these high-level technicians had to be able to do, and they didn't, they didn't assess them for any of that technical things.
They would ask them a couple questions, and like, and they knew enough to answer them and, uh, but they were getting guys out in the field who just weren't technically ready. And so then they just came up with this kind of incremental 10 questions that got harder and harder, and they really aren't able to use their phones and their code books and whatever they needed.
Mm. They needed to know these guys knew where to go get the information for solving these- Sure ... problems they see every week, every day in the field. And it was funny, you know. Some guys would just get through to a certain spot, and then we knew [00:52:00] kind of where they, where they were, and some people would finish the whole thing so easily.
And there's like- ... oh, technically we got the right guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? But, but if it's critical and you don't assess for it in the assessment, in your interview process, then you're making a mistake. Mm. And, uh, be very careful about, like, them telling you stories about what they can do. Yeah. I mean, we, we worked with a digital marketing agency one time.
Mm. And there was a guy who couldn't do any of the work himself, but he had some overseas people who could do the work. Mm. So he got hired for remote work for a couple of companies and was actually, you know, delegating work out there. And then one day, um, our client needed that employee to deliver something right then.
Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his people weren't gonna be up for another six hours. Yeah. And they figured out he was a faker. Mm. Isn't that something? Yeah. Like, that, uh- Mm ... some of the, some of the, uh, technology now, you can really hide behind a lot of things. Mm. Um, and so he w- you know, how can you, how can you flush out what they really know?
If it's critical- That's a... So- ... assess it ... one of the things [00:53:00] that... I mean, this is a good conversation, but, and I... It's so pertinent, um, for any- anybody who's trying to grow a business, um, especially in the early stages where you're bringing on your first, second, third, fourth employee type of a thing. Even, I mean, even for the people who are bringing on their 50th employee.
Mm-hmm. Um, the, I think the q- the question always is, is should I invest in more talent that is less experienced or sh- in order to create, you know, a bench? Mm. Or should I invest in high-quality talent? Mm. And because whenever you have limited resources, you're kind of, kind of forced into that decision almost, almost always.
Like, it's never really... Like, to me, my first hire was an entry, entry-level, uh, hire and ended up being a great decision for me to get off the ground. My first I don't think I had an experience, a truly experienced hire until two and a half years in. Mm-hmm. And then, um, [00:54:00] learned things in every single hire I've ever made, of course.
But, but it w- it's really hard to invest at that level. But I feel like there's this dialogue happening i- in a lot of the circles that I'm a part of, of bringing on experienced hires- Mm-hmm ... as opposed to those e- those entry-level hires, and obviously case by case, but curious your thoughts on where you see the market trending and if you have any particular advice for somebody who's in the midst of that consideration.
Yeah, I think, um, I think the higher salary person you have, um, the more sure you gotta be- Mm ... that when, when we make that investment, we're gonna get the ROI for that. Mm. Uh, most of the time with, um, administrative operations help, um, you should have already hired them. Mm. If you're, if you're bogged down with $25 an hour tasks on a weekly basis, uh, and that's keeping you from working on the $500 tasks, you're stealing from yourself.
Yeah. Right? So I would tell... I tell people all the time, add an administrator. Mm. We call it a business accelerator, right? 'Cause what an entrepreneur needs from that is not an EA. [00:55:00] Mm-hmm. You know, they need... Every, every entrepreneur needs something a little different depending upon who you are and what that person is.
But that, that's almost the fastest way to get, um, capacity for the owner entrepreneur is to put an administrator, project coordinator, whatever you need in place. Uh, and then, hey, if we're gonna, if we're gonna hire a really high-end person, you just gotta have a plan for that. And, um, you know, "Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna spend $150,000 on this, um, programmer-" Mm
or whatever. Um, that hun- that person has to be able to, in very short order, in 90 days, take a significant chunk away, of work away from you so that you can go get the next- Mm ... uh, the next level work, right? So if, you know, if... So, so a lot of times we gotta, we gotta have a mapped out ROI for that, but it's always a risk.
Mm-hmm. I mean- Always ... it's always a risk. And, um, but you get good at assessing candidates and hiring them. Mm. And then, uh, especially with administrators, you know, w- with, with an administrator, if you got a good playbook from your last administrator, it should be, it should get easier and easier to put somebody in those positions.
And we can almost, [00:56:00] we can almost, from our position, like we're, we're always looking for good administrative help, go, "Oh, hey. We're gonna put you on a-" 60-day trial run Mm and, uh, here's some things we need you to be able to do at the end of 60 days, and we just start giving them things. And we're looking for...
It's almost like a working interview. We're looking for that initiative and that intuition. You know, after they saw it happen twice, can they go figure out what happens next? Are they gonna come back and ask me, "Where's this?" I'm like, you know, the, the thing entrepreneurs are really good at is solving problems.
So once you've solved problems for a decade, think-- we know things are gonna change, and we, and, and then w- there's a little more confidence in I have the creative ability to solve problems almost anywhere now, build teams, whatever that looks like. So I don't think I, I don't think the burden of, um, being overwhelmed by that anymore doesn't really affect me.
Also, like, my wife and I are so aligned. Like, we've lived on a lot, and we've lived on a little. Mm. And, you know, that's not what brings us joy, right? Hey, we're here for more than, um, just the money. So, like, I'm not completely driven by [00:57:00] money, but hey, I f- I found that if you don't pay your employees, they stop coming to work.
So, you know, we do have to s- pay attention to the- That's an amazing insight. No, no. Well, let me write that down. It's probably gonna be the name of my book. If you don't pay employees, they won't come to work, so. I love it. Anyway, uh, so you know, hey, we have to pay attention to money, but I'm, I'm not completely money driven, so, like, the meaning of the work.
Uh, you know, when at the be-- early in my thing, if I could close a deal with anybody who could write me a check, I was pretty damn happy about that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and now we've really-- if we're not working for the right client, pretty-- we, we figure that out pretty soon. We're just like, "Oh, you know, I don't think we're gonna extend this engagement.
We're gonna give you your money back." Mm. You know, we-- "You're just-- We're not the right fit for you," right? "It's not you, it's me." Mm. Uh, and so it's just not worth it anymore. And I think, um- Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I always ask somebody, "Hey, what's the worst thing that could happen?" Yeah. "Hey, we lose a bunch of money, we gotta go get a job for a while, while we figure out the next thing."
Mm. That, I mean, if that's the worst thing that could happen to you- I think you'll be- It's, it's not that bad, right? Yeah, [00:58:00] yeah. Uh, es- especially if you've got- Sure ... got a five or 10 years under your belt as an entrepreneur, right? I mean, your industry changes so fast. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The technology, um, Google- Mm-hmm
all these things that change everything about, um, your industry. If you, if you're not creative and if you're not willing to change, you're just- Right ... you get left behind. Yeah. And so that's one of the things we, we try to pay attention to, right? The beauty of our business is we work mostly on the people- Mm
and the head space and the heart space. And, uh, and so there's always people in every business. Mm-hmm. Totally. And, uh, if 82% of the people in the world have never been led or managed by anybody who knows how to do that, we got a lot of work left to do. Yeah. You know? 100%. Yeah. Well, the way I, I mean, I've been thinking about...
I mean, there's just so many different opportunities that exist. Once you've... W- we just passed five years in business. Mm. And, um, we have, uh, just been thinking about, okay, w- w- what are the investments we need to make in people? What are the investments we need to make in process? What are the investments that we need to [00:59:00] make in brand- Mm
and, um, uh, marketing and, and business devel- I mean, all the things. Um, and the way I've kind of thought about it is that risk is ever present in, um, in this journey, it seems, and it's more so how you learn to deal with it over time. Mm-hmm. Gets a lot better, or at least hopefully, I should say. Um, I f- I feel like early on I was...
I mean, I thought it was life or death almost every decision I made. Mm. And maybe it was, I'm not sure, but you know- But you lived ... probably not. We lived. Uh, we, we definitely lived and... but it felt so drastic, and I think what's changed is reps. Mm-hmm. Rep- Because the dollar amounts are getting higher, and the amount of people that are in the equation is getting higher.
Yeah. Yet my stress levels are much lower than they used to be, and maybe, I, I think the hope is is that that's not blind arrogance, and instead [01:00:00] that's just good practice at managing and navigating, you know, uh, risk tolerance as it relates to business growth. What are your thoughts on that? Um, I think, you know, um, there's risk in moving forward.
There's risk in growing. There's risk in staying the same, right? Like- Hmm ... there's always risk. There's risk in keeping your job- Yeah ... your W-2 job and not going for your own thing. Sure. You know? And, uh, you know, I'm, I'm 57, and so there are a lot of people who are finished careers now and they're retiring, and they want...
And they're thinking, "Oh, I could build a business like yours." I'm like, "Oh, well, you can, and it's probably gonna take you 15 years though, so let, you know, let's get started," right? Yeah. And, you know, and the first question they ask me, "What do you know about marketing and sales?" They're like, "Oh, I don't know anything about marketing and sales."
They go, "Get started there." Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so. Hmm. Uh, so I don't know. Um- Yeah, I think, I think sometimes, you know, we as a business owner, you know, we think all this freedom and autonomy just, it comes with this heavy burden. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's just [01:01:00] heavy. Mm. And, uh, and, you know, once you got some, um, capital, you got some, uh, money at risk, you, you, you got a loan, you've bought a building, you're, you're employing all these people, right?
You can't just quit that and go get a job. Mm. You know, so there's a little bit of a- Mm ... uh, hey, you know, I'm, I'm committed, and the higher your commitment is, the risk is higher, I think. But, you know, what, what's the biggest risk, you know? The biggest risk is you live your whole life and you don't make a difference.
Yeah. That's the biggest risk. Mm. So then make sure, like, what you're doing matters. Mm. You said earlier, you know, "Hey, do we find the joy in our work still?" Go build that kind of business so that you're not working really hard and really long on something that doesn't bring you any joy. I can't imagine.
Yeah. I can't imagine that task as a business owner. Mm. So. That's great. Uh, yeah. And then the risk don't feel as risky, to me anyway. And like- Right ... and then the other thing I'll tell people, uh, for a while I worked at GE and, um, and I would go help them recruit military [01:02:00] officers, young military officers out of the military, and so I was kind of- Uh, subcontracted under this HR team that went and did these things.
I was a manufacturing operations guy at the time. And, uh, they looked at this one resume of a guy I liked, and they said, "Hey, he's been working in the family business for four years." I go, "Yeah, but he's got this military background." They go, "Yeah, but we don't hire people that have worked in family businesses for four years."
I'm like, "Oh, really? Why is that?" They're like, um, "Because they won't submit to the structure- ... of the bureaucracy of the business," right? Yeah. "They're, they're not gonna be a good fit." Mm-hmm. And they knew that statistically- Mm ... even if that one guy might have been able to do that. Mm. And so, like, what I tell a business owner who's owned his business for five or 10 years, like, "Hey, there's no going back."
Yeah. "They're not gonna hire you. You're, you're gonna be a terrible employee-" "... so you gotta make this work." Yeah, totally. So. Yeah, you don't really have an option, for sure. Uh, for as-- You don't have no options, but it was interesting. My perspective back then was like, "Oh, I think that's kind of shortsighted."
Yeah. But now I know, like if- Mm-hmm ... I've had a couple clients try to hire me, you know, like, "Oh, why don't you just come do this for us?" Mm. And I'm like, "Number one, [01:03:00] I have a really short attention span, and number two, I'd be a terrible employee." And so, uh- That's so funny ... so we, so we continue to work on, you know?
And, and I have some really good talent on our team right now, too, so, so I'm always worried about, uh, somebody trying to take them from me. But- Mm-hmm ... you know, that's why you better be treating your employees better. 100%. Yeah. No doubt. And make sure they're finding the joy. Totally. Yeah. Last question, um, and I ask this to almost every guest just- Almost everyone.
Almost. Uh, I'm trying to think of somebody I haven't. I just am trying to protect myself here, but I think I've asked everybody. Okay. Um, what... If there was a third member of our conversation here today who was an, uh, an entrepreneur in the first year of starting their business, a founder, maybe they have no employees, maybe they have a couple, um, they're right at the very beginning of their journey, what is something that you would say to them?
What's a piece of advice you would give them, an encouragement you would give them? What's, what would be on your heart to share? Oh, I-- people ask me all the time, you know, "Should I start a business?" Mm. You [01:04:00] know? And, and I think there's three things that are just... If we don't have really simple answers to, like, "Hey, what problem do you solve?
Who has that problem? How much is it worth for, for them to have you solve that problem for them," right? If they can't kinda strategically articulate their business around those three questions well, then they're probably not ready. And then the other thing I always tell them, like, "Hey, what's your personal financial situation?
What if you don't get a steady paycheck for the next 12 to 24 months?" Mm. "Are you ready for that?" Mm. "If not, let's start your business as a side hustle on nights and on the weekends until you're sure you have the answers to those three questions right." Because, hey, um, lack of resources will get you to quit maybe right when you just know enough to make it work.
Mm. You know? Uh- Yeah ... and so, um, you know, I, I think it, it always takes longer than you expect. I remember, uh, I was buying a franchise in a coaching space, and the founder of the franchise said, "Hey, everybody got a pretty good idea for what it's gonna take time and money to get this thing started?" And everybody's like, "Oh, yeah, we think we do."
And it's [01:05:00] like, "Just multiply that times three, and if you're not ready to handle that multiplied by three, don't sign the agreement." Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I thought, "Oh, I should've listened to him. I wasn't ready." Yeah. No, but, but it was, it was good. It was a good-- it was good advice, right? So, like, um, you can't start a business and expect- Mm
um, you know, you hear these stories. They write these- I know ... uh, tales of these guys who did that, and they, and they, and they pay themselves very well. There was a breakthrough. It's, they're the .001%. The rest of us, uh, we, it takes us a little time, right? You don't know enough yet. You think you do, but you don't, and so patience is key.
Mm. Um, hey, make sure that you're financially ready for this, you know, and your, and your kinda family knows what that means as best as you can. And then, uh, go talk to... Like, don't, don't isolate yourself. Go talk to people that have been ahead of you. Most of the time, entrepreneurs are very generous, you know.
"Hey, you asked me to come over here to do this. I'm glad to do that," right? Um, uh, you, you know, if, if they like to ride bikes or play golf or [01:06:00] shoot guns, hey, go shoot guns with them- Mm. Yeah ... and, and ask them questions, and they'll tell you. They, they, they don't have a lot of time, but if you go do something they love- Mm
uh, they'll generally give you some good ideas about what's going on. So if anybody wants to go for a bike ride with me- ... uh, there's the open invitation, right? I may take you up on that. Um, well, just really appreciate all of the insight that you shared today, Ross. Uh, really, uh, I've always respected you for the way that you, um, are so generous with your insights and, uh, the way that you lead others so well.
You're very atten- intentional. Um, you've always been somebody that locally I know that I can turn to for whether it be, uh, us actually chatting in a room or me consuming some of your content that- Yeah ... you put out, really just have, um, valued your wisdom and, um, grateful for the opportunity to be in community with you.
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for joining me today.