Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We interview sustainability leaders across industries to learn what they are working on and how they are steering their companies toward a climate-friendly world.
Alex - 00:00:00:
All right, Nick, welcome to the Open Source Sustainability Podcast. Super, super excited to have you here. Maybe to get started, why don't you tell us a little bit about hunt club and what it is that y'all do.
Nick - 00:00:12:
Yeah, thanks for having me. It's awesome to be here too. So started Hunk Club a while ago, about seven years. And so Hunk Club is a new category of search firms. So what we really do that's unique and different is we build all our own technology in-house to automate and augment as much of the process as possible. So our team can focus on really working with customers and candidates and not worry about all the odd administrative tasks that are in this industry. But then our big differentiators of using a network of thousands of leaders to refer your next grade higher. So I think when we're doing a. VP of marketing for a large consumer company. We have hundreds of VPs of marketing or CMOs all referring on their behalf, getting amazing trusted introductions. We help our customers find talent through trust. So it's been a fun journey and been building it for a while. We think the best business comes from trust, so we're really trying to power that in every interaction.
Alex - 00:01:01:
That's amazing. And obviously as a sustainability podcast, it seems like sustainability ESG, DENI, from a job title perspective has really exploded over the last five to 10 years. So I'm curious as we kind of dive into this to kind of get your perspective of, both the perspective of as a career, like is this a job that's in high demand, but also in terms of the folks that you work with, what are you seeing in terms of sustainability hiring trends? But before we get into that, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how does sustainability factor into what you do at Hunt Club? Like, is it something that y'all have discussed internally? How do you sort of think about your place in this conversation?
Nick - 00:01:44:
Yeah, yeah. And sort of a lot of different ways across like just the spectrum of ESG. And so like we, when you think about what our business is effectively doing is powering the next generation of talent that's building all these really interesting companies that are trying to drive impact in a lot of different ways. We think about really like education as a core tenet of what our job is in this. And so it's still very much ESG just broadly is obviously nascent in not the impact it's making. It's making a tremendous amount of impact. But in companies really creating new functions dedicated to it, like company wide initiatives, like we're still relatively in the early days, even though it's accelerating quite a bit. And so a big part of what we think our job is both at HUN Club internally and then also externally to our clients is just educating on. Here are the different types of clients you can think about when taking on more sustainability efforts or here's how you should think about as like a diverse workforce, both across leadership and the DNA of your company. And really take an educational lens to helping educate because about half or 60 to 70% of our customers are either venture growth equity-backed businesses. And many of them are trying to stay alive for the next 18, 24 months and raise an extra on the capital. But they also recognize when they get through that period, they're going to be something special and that they don't get that foundation right now. It's really hard to do that backwards. So our job is to educate, to influence, to make sure we're building the right candidate slate that is diverse, to put all sorts of different customers that are doing some really interesting things from a sustainability perspective in front of them. And hopefully. Help to guide them on their journey.
Alex - 00:03:21:
That it is such a hard and unique stage that I think for those of us who've been in that kind of hyper growth business, all run through. And whether it's sustainability or SOC 2 compliance or GDPR, all these different things, it's like, you can see that these things are stuff that you're gonna have to do, but then you also look around and say, I've got 30 employees, right? 50 employees, like, I gotta figure out how we're gonna keep the lights on in two years, much less be able to do all these things. But it does catch up fast. And oftentimes, like anything else, trying to retroactively do something is almost... Almost always operationally more hard and also obviously much more expensive. Have you seen like, could you talk to us a little bit about the hiring trends that you're seeing around ESG and DE&I and sustainability?
Nick - 00:04:09:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it from a just general growth perspective in the sector, you know, it's, it's grown in order of magnitude where before, if you're looking at, you know, does someone have some sort of ESG-based title in their actual function or in their organization? And I'm speaking more just broadly across business because we work with a lot of the Fortune 1000 as well. And, you know, 10 years ago, there were pockets that existed in different operational functions or even in some elements in HR, but it wasn't like a company-wide initiative. And that's changed a lot. Where dedicated functions have grown in order of magnitude, talent is demanding that companies work on these initiatives, otherwise they wouldn't consider joining some of these companies. I think the really interesting trend that we...That we find, and we did a poll on this a bit ago, is that basically 65% of millennials in Gen Z are more likely to trend towards joining a company that is ESG focused, that are really focused on investing with clear positions in their company, in their own titles, which are in the titles of the organization before they join. And so I think it's gonna be a huge part of how companies actually are able to track really good talent in the future.
Alex - 00:05:17:
65% of people that are searching are putting this as a reason that they choose or not choose a place to work. That is unbelievable. And y'all, as a business, as I understand it, are not just hiring entry level. These are senior, very sought after people, and obviously a very tough labor market. Is it just like a Gen Z thing, or is this something that you're seeing kind of across the board?
Nick - 00:05:43:
I think it's across the board now. I think COVID really changed the way people think about the world in general, right? We all went and did a detente in our apartments for six, 12 months and worked, but didn't leave the house and Windexed boxes that came in from Amazon. And I think people's priorities all changed, right? The thoughtfulness and the rat race of wake up, go to a job, do your job, come home, be with your family, rinse and repeat, like what they prioritize, what they work on and what they can drive impact to, I think really changed in that period. And so, so, you know, I think a big driving force is the next generation. But I also think the mindfulness of this being more important to everyone has become a. Really a forcing factor in how people make their next job decision.
Alex - 00:06:31:
Losing a hire, and I mean, it's obviously always, it's always competitive, especially in the top talent. Losing a hire. Over something like this seems entirely preventable for a business. And I don't know if you've run into this, but for somebody that did lose out on a hire maybe because they didn't have some sort of initiative or something in place, is that feedback? Is that a conversation you all have had to have with somebody of, hey, I kind of recommend you do this stuff because it's important? How do you interact with the clients on issues kind of related to sustainability, DEDI, ESG, and things like that?
Nick - 00:07:08:
A million percent. Yeah, we'll directly say, hey, in a world of options and like great talent irrespective of market conditions always has plenty of options. Of options, someone that's investing in some of these initiatives and making it a core tenant of their business versus those who are loosely investing in it or disregarding it. People want to do really great at their jobs. They want to drive impact. They want their businesses to make money, but impact takes form in a lot of different ways. And I think those who are committing to either differentiating their workforce with diversity or more sustainability efforts internally, whatever it might be, are kind of leading the leading the pack for attracting really great talent. So I think it's a, I think it's a huge opportunity for most companies. And I think those who aren't investing in it are going to struggle to track, attract the workforce, the future and miss out on a lot of. A great talent that wants to be a part of a great business, but also one that's driving impact.
Alex - 00:08:04:
It's a tough labor market in any way. I think, particularly in tech, we've all been pressed for impacts of inflation in the market to be able to hit the goals that we want. A lot of times, it's one of those things that makes it even more significant because now you have to do more with less and so it's even more important to make sure that you attract the top talent. To get there. I always think about the number one performer is almost, you know, in my experience, three to four times more. Impactful than the second and missing out on that higher. Yeah, exactly. Wow, I didn't realize that. I'd love to, as a follow up to this, maybe post out and share your survey if it's in a shareable forum. That's really interesting.
Nick - 00:08:52:
And then we have, it's interesting too, we did some other research because I was talking about this, you know, a couple of months ago, but I think it's the, I forget where we pulled the data from and I can find it and get it to you, but I think like 7% of startups actually have a net zero plan for public utility. And so like, when you think about that for broader context, the amount of money that's flowing into climate change or just in general, there's a lot of room to go drive improvement. And so I think those that are more mindful will have an opportunity to really kind of attract the best folks and win longterm.
Alex - 00:09:24:
It feels like sustainability, and we've had this podcast, we cover all kinds of perspectives on this issue, from customer relationships and expectations to investor demands, but it feels more and more that with this final piece of the talent driver, that this is becoming really a cost of doing business to some extent. And we've talked about this a little bit internally in our company, but. When I started my last company, Gather, GDPR was like on the tail end of that journey. So this is 2012, and we're midway through, I guess it was probably 2015, 2016, GDPR started to come out. We started to think more about, okay, do we wanna be, what is the implications for us? Do we need to be thinking about the way that we change our growth? And it was actually, it was a decision that we put off for a while to try to figure out in this back in 16. When I started Green Places, almost the first decision we made was to be SOC 2 compliant and to reach GDPR. And it was remarkable because just five years before, I thought, wow, we've got 150 employees. Do we really need to do this? And now I'm sitting with, at the time, five employees saying, we have to do this. And it feels like sustainability might be headed in that same sort of path where you say, no, not me, we're too small. No, not me, not a big deal. And then suddenly you get to the point, maybe it's Q4, you've got a hiring target you need to hit, you missed out on a candidate, or maybe you got a customer's asking for it and you haven't done it. It's just such a solvable issue for somebody to not lose something on. And particularly for something that a lot of us really, I think, care about. Yeah, wow, that's crazy. I had no idea it was that low of penetration.
Nick - 00:11:16:
Yeah, there's a lot of room to go there, but I also think you're right. It's just too hard to retroactively change things. You know, the world is going this way, right? For the better. So those who prioritize it now will be in a way better position to accelerate through the next phase of whatever their journey is in their company and accelerate great talent, accelerate in financing, actually be able to take their company public because they've invested in diverse boards, things of that nature, right? So, there's, I believe, like, there's going to be a bunch of rate limiters in how far you can take a company, and you start to invest in some of this stuff early and continue to improve it as you go.
Alex - 00:11:59:
Yeah, I totally agree. It's something that I think the environmentalist in me is excited about, but it's also something as a business owner that you get nervous about because you want to do it right and you want to be authentic. None of us got into any sort of a business to not do a great job on things, but it can be kind of hard to do these things. But it is really helpful when something like sustainability can really align with one of your core goals. I mean, Greenplace is just a business, one of our core tenets is to be the best place and climate to work. I mean, it is a core goal for us. It's something that I measured on as a CEO, every board meeting is how am I progressing to that goal? And if I can view sustainability as a way for me to achieve that, it's a lot easier for me to dedicate resources and time and attention to getting there. And I think bringing this in the forefront of the hiring discussion makes every hiring manager start to think about these things. You only need to miss out on one before you suddenly realize, okay, we need to get there. And I agree, the later you wait, the harder it is to do. And in the world of sustainability, the later you wait, the more it looks like it was, it wasn't like really an authentic thing that you wanted to do in the first place.
Nick - 00:13:12:
And that's, that's like a huge word, right? It's like, it's like you can see, you know, those who put a veneer of sustainability on their organization versus it being like an authentic part of their heartbeat and their culture, like talent smart, and they can sniff that out the entire process. And, and so so I think that goes back to like, one of the purposes of starting it earlier, right? Like, are you actually putting lipstick on a pig or are you actually like investing in the early days culturally to make it a part of your foundation? And I think really great talent can see the difference quite quickly.
Alex - 00:13:46:
Now flipping the script a little bit, thinking about the talent market of people getting into the world of sustainability. So folks that are coming out of school or taking a sidestep in their career to become the next sustainability or ESG lead. Can you talk a little bit about who are the types of businesses and industries that you're seeing that are hiring for these types of roles? And do you have a perspective of what's the skill set they're looking for? What does it mean to be, when you're looking to place that role, what are the... What are the top criteria of a great sustainability or ESG lead?
Nick - 00:14:29:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've seen the demand for the role spike a ton. So whether it's like head of VSG or CSO. Or VP of sustainability, like there's wide iterations for it. You know, like a lot of the common denominators or core attributes we see in the actual, from a skillset perspective, what usually makes a great kind of leader in the function is agility. And so like, that's like the first thing that we think about when we work with our clients is making sure that we're finding something that's agile enough to learn. And it's like, there are some similarities to the tech market, right? Where every six to 12 months, the latest technology, what you're thinking about using. Whatever frameworks you're applying, totally change. So like learning and agility is like one of the core skill sets that we think of. And then we benchmark like what that usually means from a background perspective. Like we see a lot of great CSOs or heads of sustainability come from consulting backgrounds. They're used to having to contact shift between a wide variety of different topics and be smart in their feet. They're used to having to have creativity and learning. And they're also used to rooting numbers against impact, right? So it's kind of like equal parts. You have to learn what's going on because it's moving at such a fast pace. You have to think about ways in which your organization can actually drive impacts. Depending on the size, the business model, the nature of the employee base and a product and service the wide variety of different things. And then you have to figure out what impact actually means and what's important to the company. Right. And so a lot of times like that background is actually pretty well suited for, for solving a lot of those challenges. That makes a lot of sense.
Alex - 00:16:04:
I, we have a local relationship with the Nicholas School for the Environment at Duke University, much to my chagrin as a, as a Tar Heel. Yeah. They're one of the best programs. I mean, it's unbelievable program. I mean, it's, it's, it's like kids.
Nick - 00:16:19:
You had to partner with them, even though you didn't want to. You just.
Alex - 00:16:22:
We did purely out of just the admiration for how amazing that program is and how smart those students are. But they really are. And actually I had a conversation with them, I think it was two semesters ago, and it's a point that you just mentioned there that I think is really important, which is this idea of reading impact in dollars. And I'll see you in the next one. The thing that I've learned more and more about this is it's not the shortage of ideas that people have of how to decarbonize or how to align ourselves more with the planet. The challenge is making the business case for it. We talk to sustainability leaders constantly, and I feel very confident that most business leaders, they're still most sustainability leaders, I think, have a pretty clear idea of what they need to do. They know where their sources of emissions are. They know the different tools they have to be able to move those. They can set goals. The problem or the challenge is, how do you communicate that to a business? And as we were talking to these smart folks coming out of the Nicholas School, that was the challenge that I would kind of put back on them is, yes, we know that you need to move to renewable energy or we know that you need to be able to operate with more efficiency when it comes to water and natural resources and work with your supply chain to find better alternatives. But make the business case for that. How do you stand in front of a CFO and justify that spend in a for-profit business? And that's not to tell people, to discourage people from doing it. That's the fun part. That's the challenge. That's like the problem that you have to solve. It's not what do we want to get to. It's actually how we get there. That's really hard. And that's the thread that I, for every great sustainability leader we've had on this podcast and the folks that I've met, they're really, really good at that. And you're right. Those are, those are, That's a tough skill set. It's not typically a skill set of just, I care about the environment. It's like, really care about solving problems.
Nick - 00:18:34:
It has to have business impact and it has to have. Environmental impact and thread both of those needles. And like we, I mean, one thing we hear sometimes from leaders that we work with too is, is, um, aside from the general brand impact for some of the initiatives that obviously improve the environment or aside from like some of the dollar cost structures, whether it's in federal grants or some sort of refund program, like actually the, the, the magnitude for talent, like the, and I don't have like hard numbers on this, but maybe I should go get you some. Um, but like we've actually talked to some leaders that correlate like. The brand influence of the initiatives they're doing and their decrease to acquire talent. So like most recruiting functions track like the cost per hire. And one of the guys I was talking to, he's the CSO Fortune 1000 company. We were talking about like what metrics he tracks. And he's actually been actually tracking quarter to quarter the cost per hire and more broadly in the organization since they've been more public and announcing different initiatives and promoting within the organization. And then also I think retention metrics too, right? Looking at how long is someone staying at the organization because there is a broader impact than just making a dollar.
Alex - 00:19:43:
I was on a panel recently with the head of ESG for the New York Stock Exchange and he made a comment. He said, you know, to everyone watching and listening, go to your sustainability page and pull up your analytics and count the number of .edu's that you see on that page. And he said, that'll tell you the number. He said, they're looking and they're trying to figure this out. And if you're not watching that, then a, you're missing out a huge opportunity, you know, but, but B. They're seeing that you're not doing what they want. I mean, that numbers are there, you can see how they're looking. And by making yourself more attractive to how people search and find, whether it's selling a new deal or it's hiring the right talent, lowering that cost to acquire is all about making sure that your product or your company is something that people really want. I mean, the increased cost to acquire a customer is usually how much do you have to prove to get somebody to believe you that this is the right thing for you? The companies in the world that have the lowest cost to acquire don't have to do anything. Someone to be able to hire, or someone to be able to do these exhibits is the world's most attractive place to be, you don't have to do much at all. So it's really interesting. I actually would be really interested to see some statistics around that, particularly for people that are well-versed in terms of sustainability and how they kind of communicate that image. But that is something that we hear a lot too. One of the things for our business a lot of times that we have in terms of conversations with people is it's usually the head of people who will approach us and say, this is a tough market. I've got a lot of employees that have maybe a self-built green team and it's getting bigger. And we need to make sure that they know that we're heard. Like they know that we hear them. Like, what do you think we can do to actually engage them? And I think a lot of it's coming from these metrics you're talking about, maximizing employee retention by engaging with your employees on things that matter.
Nick - 00:21:38:
Yeah, we see that a lot, right? The day to day of companies in a post COVID world where you're constantly balancing in person virtual back to back to back to back. Like it's sometimes you forget the mission and more broadly why collective groups of people are coming together. And so I think. Totally like marching and announcing and really sharing the level of impact that. We're making things more broadly than just what the core business is, I think is a great way to unify people in a culture. Communicate it through a company.
Alex - 00:22:13:
Now focusing in on Hunt Club as a business, your mission being building a better tomorrow, helping people find their future. I don't know if I butchered that statement or right. Would I nail it? Okay, cool. I'm almost always wrong on that. So building a better tomorrow and helping people find their future. How does that translate to ESG and sustainability initiatives? Is there a connective tissue between Hunt Club? Know, in sustainable business and commitment to ESG practice, how does that make sense for y'all as you think about this?
Nick - 00:22:47:
Yeah, I mean, I think there's commercial opportunities to it that that are very naturally can do our business. And I think there's just broader ways that we can integrate it in how we serve our customers. And so from a commercial opportunity, anytime there's a fast growing trend, whether it's sustainability, ESG, artificial intelligence, and that new technology, a new marketing technology or function that takes foot, right? And then you spent a lot of time B2B software before and like, you know, every six to 12 months, it feels like there's a new role getting creative, innovative and like the go to market function. But anyways, like there's a new PLG, right? Like, oh, product led growth motion now.
Alex - 00:23:28:
Yeah, hire the PLG person. Just Google PLG. There's like Google PLG and get them. Yeah. If I had a dollar for every potential investor who told me I just need to hire PLG, then I wouldn't have to raise anybody to start this business. That's usually the answer. Do you have this problem? Go hire a person who has that. And then we come to somebody like you and say, who has this? And you say, this just was invented six months ago. So I don't know yet. But we'll have to figure it out. But how does this how does this work for y'all? Like, how does he think about this stuff in terms of your mission?
Nick - 00:23:59:
Well, companies are asking the question, like, what do I need? What should I hire for? Who do I hire? The talent pool of like basic LinkedIn keywords that I might query seems to be a pretty finite pool. They all have these killer jobs. Like, where do I get them to join my job? What if I can't? Like, who do I hire then? Right? And so. So I think it's the evolving question of who do I hire? What should I hire for? What is the role and function? How do I think about the core skills that make it successful in this organization versus where they've come from? All those things are on our customer's minds. And so anytime there's some sort of larger macro shift in either, again, a technology or a movement, that changes what companies think through when they hire and what they're focused on and bringing in the organization. And naturally, there's always a supply deficit because it's new of talent. So the big changes, I think the volume of requests we're getting around understanding the market more, both from education perspective, then actually when they're committed to go out and engaging and building a team or hiring a leader, help them do that and educate them on the different archetypes that can be successful. Because what we find is passion plus broader core skill sets or attributes that we can fuse together. Some of them, I mentioned agility, impact oriented, the ability to influence a wide variety of different cross-functional stakeholders and bring them together. You pair that with a passion, you can recreate the archetype of what a sustainability leader looks like. But then you can also go to market and find those who are currently in the position that are passionate and have experience too. So we're seeing a growing trend of our customers actually wanting to engage with us for a wide variety of these opportunities. And then also a growing trend of leaning on us to help educate them, whether via our expert network and taking calls with them or directly with our team.
Alex - 00:25:41:
It's really fascinating. If you had to give advice going into the world of the hiring manager of tomorrow, so best prepare yourself to be able to meet the talent needs of the future, what is your top advice to these folks? What do they need to be doing right now to make sure that they're set up for success over the next five to 10 years?
Nick - 00:26:04:
I think where people really get it wrong is when they Google different initiatives and slap one on their own organization. When they really get it right, they build a program. A value, a initiative that's really aligned to their business model, to their end customer, and to their people. And so I think... What I would encourage people to do is authentic when they come up with their own programs, their own focuses, and run their own initiatives and have it aligned to what they're doing. And I think a little bit of creativity might find that most businesses... Irrespective of what industry, what geographic location, or what focus, have an opportunity to drive some level of impact in a way that's really authentic to the customers they serve and the people they employ. And that's what I would push for, is build your own authentic path to solving problems, not just slapping someone else's program in your business.
Alex - 00:27:01:
That makes sense. Nick, thank you so much for joining the podcast. Is there anything that we didn't ask you that we should? Is there something that you wish the world knew about Hunt Club that we didn't get through today?
Nick - 00:27:15:
No, I think the only thing I'd add is in complex industries, in complex markets with nascent roles and low supply of talent, I think one of the things that's our superpowers is the ability to help our customers figure it out through deeper look at skills and attributes that create success when you can't just clearly match LinkedIn titles. And so for those that are thinking about this, we'd love to support and help and help solve any problems, drive impact that we can.
Alex - 00:27:44:
It makes a ton of sense and I guess to tie it back to that mission, if the role hasn't been defined yet, you're not going to find anybody with that title today. So looking at the underlying attributes of that can be a better predictor of success, I'm sure.
Nick - 00:27:56:
And some of the best talent don't have the title that you're searching for when you're looking to, you know, driving impact in a new business, new function. So we think betting on people and betting on raw skills and passion is a recipe for success. So we encourage everyone to think about that.
Alex - 00:28:12:
Well, Nick, thank you very much. I really appreciate you joining. Very new perspective on things, and very, very interesting. Definitely want to see that survey if you have it. That is super, super fascinating, and I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you.
Nick - 00:28:28:
It's good to be with you. Thanks for having me, Alex.