035 | Thinking long-term when developing a new drinks brand | Part 1/2 with Sebastian Barnick from Pleasant Land Distillery (Kent, UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 035, I chatted with Sebastian Barnick, Director at Pleasant Land Distillery. Starting life in the Royal Navy, he became a certified distiller and WSET educator with a wealth of experience in wines and luxury spirits. He is an NPD professional and runs a sustainable contract distillery in the UK. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Timestamps

(1:36); Origins of a Liquid and Brand

(7:48); Rectifying Vs Distilling

(11:10); Disconnect between Pricing and Quality

(18:42); The Bottom Up Era

(20:04); Value Chain Construction

(27:01); Where Do The First 10,000 Pounds Go

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Sebastian Barnick

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Sebastian Barnick

Distiller | Pleasant Land Distillery

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 35I chatted with

Sebastian Barnick, Director at
Pleasant Land Distillery.

Starting life in the Royal Navy.
He became a certified Distiller

and WSCT educator with a wealth
of experience in wines and

luxury spirits.
He's an MPD professional and

runs a sustainable contract
distillery in the Uki.

Hope you will enjoy our chat.
Hi Sebastian how you doing?

I'm.
Very well.

Thanks, Chris.
Happy to be here.

Fantastic.
So it's a it's a great honor to

have you here now now that I met
you and the the rest of the

family in Berlin.
So today it's going to be a very

interesting episode because it's
something that I don't really

talk about that much on the side
of production and liquid

development and you know, the
distillery side of things, you

know, we, I usually take care of
the commercial side of things

after we leave the distillery.
The commercial guys always

forget about us.
They've already sold it and

that's that's very true.
That's very true.

But yeah, you know, sometimes
it's, you know IA lot of people

will have like a lot of
complaints about production in,

especially in big companies.
So it's yeah, it's the Ying and

Yang of the of the of the drinks
business now.

It's nice to have someone to
blame.

Exactly.
Exactly.

That's the thing.
If it's not, if it's not a

customer, you know, with the
customer, you can't blame the

customer.
So you have to blame blame

production.
Absolutely, absolutely.

So let me ask you a few
questions.

So I mean you've got your own
brands, but you're also

producing on behalf of other
people.

So they they come to you and and
they want you to help them

produce liquid and you know and
help them with the brand.

So how, how does it start?
And I and I know that there's no

right or wrong question here,
like you know, right or wrong

answer here, but where, where
does it start usually?

Does it start with a brand?
So do people come with a brand

and they want to, you know,
attach a liquid to it?

Or do people come with a liquid
idea, the idea of a liquid, and

then they want to build a brand?
Every, every single one of those

and more.
You know I I think sort of 90%

of our business is is producing
things for other people.

So we have a a whole load of
different motivations that

people come with.
I think it's the number one

thing and and actually a lot of
people who don't know their

motivation, you know, some
people have have not put enough

thought into what they're going
to do, I think and you'll be

able to see that.
As well in in this sort of, you

know, thousands of craft brands
that are out there, you know,

but I think it's really
important, critically important

to have your motivation in the
front of your mind because

launching a brand is not easy
it's it's such a tricky thing to

do.
There's there's so much work

involved.
You know blood, sweat and tears

throughout.
You know you're going to be

having lots of sleepless nights.
So if you don't know why you're

doing it then then you're not
going to get very far.

You know there's so many
different motivations.

You know some people have a real
financial one that like you know

we want to launch a a brand to
to make lots of money and we

want to sell at a 12 times
multiplier from you know, with

celebrity buy in and all this
sort of stuff.

And then you have people who who
want to do a family legacy

business.
Who want to be there for for a

really long time and and have a
have a sustainable slow growth

that pays them well and well
into the future.

And then other people just love
the craft.

They've always wanted to make
something and they love playing

with flavours.
They love, you know, doing all

sorts of different things.
But then also people who want

the occasion.
So you know, they have, like I

want to have make the perfect
drink for sipping on the French

Riviera.
Because I like the French

Riviera and I want to make
something to drink there, you

know, it's awesome.
I I like it.

You know?
Why not?

Yeah.
And I I love like the, I mean,

you know, I'm a big fan of the
target occasion.

So when you are, when you're
clear on what occasion you want

to cater, then it makes life
easier from from a taste profile

perspective.
I mean you're not going to do

something very heavy like you
can play with the liquid and

with the flavor so that it can
accommodate that kind of

occasion.
Yeah.

Do they know what it takes to,
you know, like to get to get

into this business?
Yes and no.

Yes and no.
Yeah, I I said to you on, you

know, on e-mail before that I'm
going to say it depends about a

million times with the questions
you asked me.

And in fact I think it might be
there's a competition for the

motto of the distillery.
It's either going to be it is

what it is or or it's going to
be.

It depends because I say that
too many times every day.

But yeah, it depends on the
background they come from.

It's a real diverse range of
people.

And they they have a real
diverse range of experiences.

When you're working with people
in the trade, I think you have a

a really you know they they have
some experience, they know the

the deals that they get There
was optimistic that people are

just going to buy their product
based on what it's, you know if

we build it, they will come.
I think that's something

throughout.
I think people have been seeing

how easy it's been in the past
15 years.

And only now they're starting to
see just how much, how much real

graft it is to make your brand
work from the distilling side of

things, from the actual
production.

There's a little bit of
knowledge out there.

I I think 2 sections of people
have a lot to answer for.

Firstly, you have big brands.
With marketing campaigns where

they tell you so much bullshit
about how production works and

people, people you know, listen
to it, They hear it, they get it

advertised to them on the tube.
You know you've got whatever 20

million case a year brand
telling you how artisanal their

process is.
You know, it's like and then the

other side, you know, you've got
people who have all been doing

the the gin boom.
So you have rectifiers where the

process is really easy and you
go, right, OK.

So I've got on one side brands
who are making, you know, X many

million cases of whiskey a year.
And they're saying, oh, we do it

in this way.
And then, you know, you've got

other people saying we make, you
know, 100 bottles a year.

And all it took was me playing
around with some ingredients.

It leaves most people looking to
launch a brand with very little

to go off.
You know it.

People use the information like
they do when they're you know

when you're sick and you Google
your symptoms.

Yes, that's that's exactly what
happens with distilling people.

People Googled it.
They looked on a Reddit thread

or something about how to make
rum and and everyone's an

armchair expert.
Yeah, the only the only

difference is when you Google
some like you have something on

your finger or whatever, like it
always ends up with a mortal

disease.
When you Google something about

the drinks business, you
probably end up having buy out

for billions and celebrities
having sold to big

multinationals.
And then everybody thinks that

they can launch a gym brand and
sell it to the Aggio or for

Norikad or anybody like just to
make some, you know, like super

multipliers as you as you said
no.

Yeah, exactly.
Let's, let's clarify this

because I think that a lot of
people in the business with

despite having you know being in
the business, they they they

don't have it very clear, you
know like can you, can you

explain very briefly like the
difference between you know

rectifying and distilling just
to just to clarify when when

especially especially I mean
obviously when it comes to to

Gene which is the biggest, you
know, user.

Yeah, yeah.
So, so, well, there's there's

three sections really.
You've got compounding, which is

where you you buy a spirit and
you add flavorings to it.

Or water or or sugar And that
you then have a, you know, a a

mixed product basically like
like you would for a liqueur or

like you would for a bathtub
gin.

And that's called a compounded
product.

And the rectifying is where you
buy in a neutral spirit from a

producer like a big commodity
producer.

It's what what happens at the
end of every year that you have

the grape lake and the OR the
wine lake and the and the grain

lake.
And these are basically

continental overproduction of
wheat or grape or whatever sugar

beet, whatever raw material and
instead of just letting it rot,

what happens is they typically
have enormous they used to be

state-run, now they're mostly
privately owned distilleries

with distilled to neutral.
So they make neutral spirit and

that gets used in medical
procedures gets used.

And you know your hand sanitizer
bottles, they add some chemicals

to denature it.
But it's all it's a lot of, it's

the same stuff.
It's a huge commodity bulk

product and people ship millions
of litres of this around the

world at 96% or over 96% and and
by law gin has to be made with a

neutral spirit.
So to make your own is is really

is really challenging and not
particularly cost effective,

especially when you can buy.
This neutral spirit at, you

know, less than you know, £1.50
per litre of pure alcohol.

When I talk about litres of pure
alcohol, I mean litres of

alcohol at 100% equivalent.
This is how we in in distilling

we talk about alcohol because it
makes the most sense.

Before you start adding water
and all this sort of stuff,

you've got to move it around.
In a simple universal term.

So rectifying is where you take
neutral spirit.

You add your flavors to it, be
it botanicals, be it, you know,

flavor extracts or chemicals or
whatever you want, and then you

re distill it to create a clear
spirit that tastes of.

Whatever you put in there, so
you know you want to make a gin

you put you have to taste
predominantly of juniper that

that is the law despite a lot of
brands out there not really

following that.
You have to add your, your

juniper, your you know Coriander
Angelica, all that sort of

classic stuff to it and then you
distill it and you capture that

vapour and that vapour then is
condensed and then diluted with

water and that then becomes your
your gin and and that's very

easy to do the the technical
barrier to entry is is minimal.

All you need is a license, a
rectified license and A50 litre.

Still, you can buy off the
Internet for you know a couple

£100 and a heat source and some
water and and then you can make

your own gin and that's why
everyone does, because you can.

The, the thing with gin is a
little bit, I mean it's very

similar to the beer to the beer
industry, right.

The whole thing with crafts, you
know with home brewing and

distilling you know like it's
it's very, very similar, I mean

with different legal aspects of
course, but basically that's

that was one of the drivers of
of the the gene boom.

The the, the issue that I see
for example in the gene category

is that everybody seem to play
in the same prize band.

You know everybody think that
they can claim that kind of like

I don't know 3035 LB Euro, you
know limit and that create and

that has created and it keeps
creating a lot of confusion for

consumers because they have no
idea what they're buying and

they just rely on price because
they used to rely on price on I

don't know whiskies and rums and
and so on.

And but you know like at the end
of the day they're just getting

confused by by a price point
that has that has nothing to do

with their what you put in it.
So that £35 price point.

Comes back to the cost of goods.
So the cost of goods for all of

these guys and you know, unless
you're doing millions of bottles

a year, it's pretty similar.
So they'll be reliant on the

cost of the neutral spirit, the
cost of fuel and then the price

of duty the the so alcohol tax,
yes.

And then you have naturally,
you've entered into a drinks

ecosystem.
Which you talk about a lot on

the podcast and margins and
stuff.

And you can say whatever price
you want, but people are only

going to pay so much and the
drinks are always going to cost

a similar ballpark, right, with
gin.

So it's a gin and tonic is the
occasion for 99% of gins.

So you know, people are going to
always pay, probably between. 5

lbs And 10 lbs for a gin.
Double gin and tonic, yes, and

and you have to work your way
back from there.

And funnily enough, it normally
ends up between 30 and 40 lbs a

bottle into retail or from
retail.

So people are are squeezed on
margins because when you're a

small startup business you don't
have the economies of scale.

The bottles all cost between
sort of ATP to 2 lbs.

For your glassware, you know
your labels are all going to

cost a similar amount as well or
unless you want to go really

crazy, so so you're constrained.
And then in terms of liquid, you

have to taste predominantly of
juniper, so you are already you

know you're playing in the same
field as everyone else.

Your ingredients you know, you
can add, sure you can add, you

know, saffron or whatever you
want to and that will add a

premium.
But how much premium do you want

to go?
Because if you leave that 30 to

40 band people either can't use
you in cocktails or you're not

making enough margin or the
distributor's not making enough

margin, you know, and energy
costs what it costs.

We're we're we're constrained by
our by our raw materials.

Yeah, No, no, I can imagine now,
but my my point was more on the

on the lower end of things that
I feel, I personally feel

cheated when I know that there
is not some, you know, it's not

a great product that actually
gets sold at the same price as a

product that I that I consider
higher in in quality.

So what you're saying is that
basically that's the, that's the

minimum barrier.
So they cannot go lower because

otherwise they wouldn't make any
money.

But then the other guys are also
not you know playing with the

margins.
So you know it all ends up in

the, you know like that's what I
mean about the confusion, the

commercial product, a good
quality product or very

averagely you know rectified
product and they all sit in the

same price.
Band then then it comes down to

the sales people because for
example, I, you know, I used to

work in for for a luxury spirits
brand agency when I was there.

It was probably six years ago.
We were seeing cocktails in

central London going for £25
plus per cocktail.

And this, I mean this is crazy
money.

We were like, this is insane,
but we would use the best aged

whiskey, you know, it was the
whole thing.

Now, now you go into central
London and they're making these

cocktails with like Bullet or
something, which is, you know,

again a bulk commodity product
that sells millions and millions

of cases a year that you can buy
a whole bottle.

For less than 2025 lbs, this is
just a crazy it's a really

confusing time to be in.
Absolutely, absolutely.

And let's and let's talk about
that, because then we can go

back to the stealing, but let's
start to bottom up as we usually

do.
So I guess I'm a bit.

I'm a big advocate of the fact
that it all starts from the

glass now from the from the the
glass at at at the bar sitting

at the bar or the bottle of
course in a specialty on off

trade or you know license and
and you know So what you what

you're saying I mean your
experience is basically that

that there was a trend at some
point in which you were actually

paying for a premium cocktail
because of the premium

ingredients that were going into
that.

Yeah.
And then once that they broke

the barrier of the whatever that
could be, you know, 10 lbs,

twenty pounds, 30 lbs or
dollars, then at some point it

all everybody got used to paying
that money and then they started

to recuperate margins, you know,
from a drinks cost perspective

and then using more commodity
brands to still accommodate that

price point.
Is that correct?

There's a bit of both, right?
So.

We've we've seen the the on
trade get absolutely hammered

through the pandemic.
We've seen them get hammered

again with the cost of living
crisis, and we've also seen big

brands get worried about losing
market share to craft and their

strategy to fight back is by.
Supporting the entree, giving

them money, giving them stock,
giving them everything.

And they're going right.
These these bars are going

right.
We need to survive.

Can we sell a supermarket?
You know, you can get it in a

budget supermarket for 18 lbs a
bottle.

Can we sell this at 25 lbs in a
cocktail?

And sometimes they can.
And that's that's you know

that's the that's the reality.
So it's a really complex

ecosystem at the moment.
I was talking to to my old boss

because we're looking at a
pricing strategy for our our own

product of vodka and we were
like, you know because I've

always worked with luxury.
I thought luxury price but

luxury liquid, luxury bottle,
you know all of this and he was

like, you know said.
Six years ago I would have told

you go luxury.
Now I don't know anymore.

I don't know anything anymore.
Everything has changed and this

is, and this is very true,
that's very true.

So the the the top, the top down
years are gone.

Very much so.
This is this is the bottom up

era.
Absolutely.

And sometimes, I mean, you know,
I get, I get some comments on my

LinkedIn posts when I talk about
how to do it bottom up.

And a few people comment is
like, yeah, but this is too

difficult.
You can't do it like this is too

slow.
And I was like, yeah, but this

is, this is the way.
I mean, you either do it this

way or you're out because, you
know, top down is not an option

anymore.
So you know, you either learn to

do it bottom up or you know, the
top down Helicopter money kind

of approach doesn't work
anymore.

And and actually, you know, the
money, you know that that's

another thing to come back to.
It's throwing money at things.

Does not work, does not work
anymore.

Not for, not for the little
guys, certainly because we run

out.
You know we are not too big to

fail.
This is no no Distiller is going

to be bailed out by the
government, that's for sure.

So you know, we we have to now
make.

A sustainable long term
business, and you do that by

building relationships, by
having a really good value

chain, making sure everyone is
looked after, making sure you

can afford to do promotions with
people when you need to and you

still have enough in the tank to
to pay the bills.

That's the way forward.
And let's actually dive into

this aspect because you know,
talking about value chain and

you know like the, let's say
blending the commercial and

production aspect of of things.
Not when.

When people come to you, do they
understand where to put the

money?
What goes where?

Like how do they approach the
value chain?

Do they approach it, you know,
top down or bottom up?

You know, like, do they?
Chris, it depends, You know what

I mean.
It depends.

Honestly.
We we get.

Did you know you know
Goldilocks?

With the old fairy tale.
But anyway, she's I'm not going

to go into it.
It's good.

It's not a good, not a good
analogy.

Fairy Days on the Drinks
podcast.

Absolutely, yeah.
We talked about the holistic

distillery the other day, so
I'll get my healing crystals

ready.
So what?

What what?
Let's say, let's put it this

way, like what do you think is
the right way to think about the

the, the, the value chain or
what?

What's the best approach from a
customer point of view?

So you know, I I think you have
to think where.

So this this you got to go back
to the beginning.

Why are you doing this?
Is it for the financial reasons?

Is it for creating a legacy, you
know?

Is it for the occasion?
Right.

Why are you going down this
road?

Because you know you need to
work out how much money you need

to be making to make this
happen.

For example, one of the brands I
you know we own 11 is called

White Cliffs Gin.
We're based in the Southeast of

England.
We have in White Cliffs country,

we have the White Cliffs of
Dover and Beachy Head and all

that nearby.
We know that there that people

here are on a, you know.
Genuinely, generally middle

class, most people commute into
London.

They spend a lot of money on
transport in in return for

slightly cheaper accommodation
in a more rural location.

We know that people spend a lot
of time by the sea front.

We know we get a lot of tourists
down here.

We know that the restaurants
here are, you know, mainly

gastropubs I would say.
So pubs with a good menu and

good quality food and then a few
sort of.

Local regular drinking
establishments where you can get

your English warm beer, as the
French like to call it, and it's

very traditional.
But there's also, you know, a

sort of semi urban crowd of
commuters who have the quality

of London and like to indulge in
that in a local context on the

weekends.
And we also know that people

have a price ceiling.
So we're not people are not

spending £25 on a cocktail in
Kent.

In fact, they're probably not
drinking cocktails at all.

It'll be a spirit mixer serve
and we know we come back to it's

going to sit between 7:00 or
five to 10 lbs for a double.

So we know the bar wants to make
80% gross profit on that, and we

know then how much it needs to
be per shot.

It's 28 shots to a 70 CL bottle.
Plus you know you add 10% for

wastage and then you go back to
how much it's got to cost into

the distributor.
And because they're going to

want their 20 or 20 to 30% now
some distributors want you know

just for logistics which is is
crazy and then you know you come

back to how much money do I need
to make.

Then you have your cost of goods
and you say, right, if my cost

of goods is, you know, three
times this, we're not going to

make this, it just comes out of
our margin.

Because we know that people are
only going to spend this much.

So you have to make the product
fit.

Who's going to be drinking it,
when they're going to be

drinking it, where they're going
to be drinking it.

And then also what your attitude
towards the business is pursuing

a a growth model now where you
make no margin or very little

margin is is a really risky
strategy.

But some people want to do that
and they've got the backing to

make that happen.
So it's it's really complex.

There's no there's no right or
wrong answer, I don't think.

I think it depends on how you
want to do it and this is very

interesting.
I mean what you're saying.

So let's say there there are
some people that come to you

with a big volume game like you
know like to be the brand that

scale.
So they are happy to work with

the lower margin, but building
on the scale.

That does happen and and that's
exactly how it happens, but I

think it's wrong.
Because often people come with a

very top down mentality.
You know an example we we quoted

for a a flavored agave spirit
brand, right.

And they said our first year's
volume is going to be 160,000

cases and and they said how
cheap can you make it?

And I was like, guys, this is,
this is not grounded in reality

and you're asking all the wrong
questions like should be how

good can you make it?
No, not like, you know, and and

also the 160,000 cases, I mean
where who's going to buy this?

And they're like, you know,
everyone cocktails.

You know, we see it being
consumed by everyone and it's

just saying all the like wrong
buzzwords, you know, like if

there was a.
An error buzzer for someone.

Every time someone said this
product is for everyone, they

would have done it every single
step of the way and you're like,

guys, this is this is crazy and
they're like we're gonna work

with someone else.
And I said look guys, honestly,

I good luck.
I've got no more to go ahead.

That is the issue.
I mean many times that I've seen

now that that people create
liquid top down, so that's

there.
There was the the reason on my

question not like on how do they
build the value chain if they

build the bottom up or top down
because they they start from the

ingredients, they start with a
bunch of like botanicals and

very expensive spices and so on.
And then it just adds up.

And then when you add the
margins of the distributor, you

know importers or sailors and
and and so forth and retailers,

then all of a sudden it becomes
like a crazy price on the shelf.

Or you know, or at at the bar
and then nobody's going to buy.

So then then it becomes a luxury
product but almost by mistake

you know by wrong value chain
and not by the brand essence.

And then there is, you know
there is this thing that I

noticed that it's it's like this
is not a luxury product but it

it's priced as a luxury product.
Yeah, and and and honestly,

there are a lot of the times
they just shouldn't be.

You know, the reality is that it
it's just expensive because

they've not done their cost of
goods, they've not looked at

their supply chain properly,
they've not analyzed the value

chain and then they've gone.
We want this and this and this

and it all adds up and in the
end you've got a product that's

£50 that should be you know, 30.
Do do people when when they come

to you like do they understand
the kind of like the balance

between production and
commercial in terms of

investment.
So I like to think like where do

the 1st 10,000 lbs go?
You know, where, where should

they go?
Should they go in in stock and

and ingredients or should they
go in, you know, marketing,

commercial?
Chris, it it depends.

Look, honestly, and from what
I've seen, people either

typically overspend on
production or they underspend.

And they rarely hit that just
right moment.

Now I would, I'd say that if
your outfit is you're a startup

brand, found the lead, you've
made a liquid, I would say put

probably about 50% of that five
grands worth into production.

Leave 1000 for logistics and
then 4000 into marketing.

And then the rest of it is you
get out there and you sell it

and you sell those first you
know because that what's that

going to get you like 3000
bottles.

So you got or well not even not
with the price of glass at the

moment.
It's probably going to be more

like 2000.
So you know you you put that

into there and you get a you use
your, you bootstrap, you go out,

you sell it bottom up and you
can sell those couple of 1000

bottles by yourself and you will
sell that within a few months.

And you can sell it for money
that you get paid and you can

reinvest into buying more stock.
You know, especially for

products that don't require
aging, that that's definitely

the way to do it.
For products that require aging,

you're you're in a slightly
different ball game because you

know you've got to be looking
three years, five years ahead

and then you typically need
funding or you need to have this

as your secondary income.
I would say to have a

comfortable life for sure for
that, for minimum for three

years, yeah.
Absolutely.

And then and then, yeah, you,
you know, you've got to be

making that volume three years
in advance.

And I mean, you know, running a
distillery and or or even just

laying down a cask of whiskey
that's expensive, you know,

thousands of pounds to do that.
So if you want to be making, you

know, 100 barrels a year, it's a
hell of a lot of investment.

It's a tricky one and and you're
taking a big gamble.

Based on what your future sales
volume is going to be, none of

us can tell the future.
Not yet.

Any.
No.

Not yet.
Not yet.

Not.
Not even ChatGPT can tell the

future, no.
Just learn from the past, yeah?

Exactly.
And and and this must be a very

interesting thing that you know
for you now because it puts you

in a very, you know, kind of
like honest conversation with

your customers.
Because of course, like if I

come to you with 10 grand and
you know, of course it would be

nice for you to set to to, you
know to get all the 10 grands,

no.
But then you already know that

if I don't manage to sell it
out, I won't reorder.

No, absolutely.
I I get Honestly, I I send

customers AI, call it a liquid
design brief template where I

ask them a lot of questions, one
of which is what's the project

budget?
And and in England, most people

don't really like talking about
money.

So often, you know, they leave
that blank and they don't tell

me.
I I try and ask and as ah, we

don't feel comfortable because
you know, I can understand

people get burnt in, in business
doing things like this.

And they don't see it from my
perspective that if I charge

them this, you know, this
£10,000 out of their first

10,000, they're never going to
come back because they're going

to be sat on all this stock.
You know, just trying, not

knowing how to sell it, not with
no budget for marketing, with no

budget for logistics, no nothing
for activities and promotions.

I I wish people were a bit more
transparent with me on that.

There is nothing new under the
sun as as the old expression

goes.
So, you know, I've, I've seen

all sorts of budgets and I think
that there's a, you know, I'm in

it with them.
You know because if they never

come back then it's just a one
off and it's like selling 1

bottle to 1 bar to use your
adage.

No.
And this is and this is honestly

like it's it's the it's the
honest conversation that

probably is lacking very often
in the business.

No.
And that's why these people are

reluctant to to leave that kind
of information because then they

think you you may use it against
them rather than for, you know,

for them.
But then ultimately that's

that's the talking about the
longevity and the long term

aspect of the business.
Because I want you to come back

to me all the time, you know,
like, you know, like for for new

production and keep on coming
back to to produce a new batch.

Because because of that, you
know, like you know you don't

want to sell out.
You know, a palette of stuff and

then see you and and goodbye.
Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I I I've seen that.
Many many times I've I've also

seen you know from the other
perspective is where people go.

You know I want to make a
product as as cheaply as

possible and then sell it for 40
lbs.

And you know I and and this is,
this is what I was referring to

in the beginning.
You know, like to in that

question on, you know, sitting
on the 35 patents, when you know

sometimes it's super cheap and
it's like why are you selling it

for £35?
And and you know, most people

come and they reference.
Smirnoff, Grey Goose.

You know, these big brand
products.

I hope I maybe, dad, Joe's not
going to come and assassinate

me.
I don't think that'll not yet.

But yeah, and they see that it's
a commodity, neutral spirit

blended with water.
And they go, why can't we do

that?
It's like, well, you haven't got

the budget.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, 35 and 36.

If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with

friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building

brands from The Bottom U.