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Interviews from a multicultural perspective that question the way we understand America
For example, the Vogue News, the DEI, are reminiscent to China's cultural revolution in the 60s and 70s. Trump is going to be the first president pro-crypto since 2009 when Bitcoin came into being. It started from scratch. A telemarketer. I just don't mind ego. I pick up the phone and the call and people yelled at me. It was very scary.
But my skin got thicker and thicker. So I kept calling. That was excellent training. If you're tired of arguing with strangers on the internet, try talking with one of them in real life. Welcome to Back in America, the podcast. Today on the show, we are thrilled to welcome Coco Key, a global citizen with a fascinating journey from Peking University to UC Berkeley, where she co-founded a startup during the dotcom boom.
Now a leading figure in blockchain and cryptocurrency, Coco is the co-founder of Key Global Advisor, author of the Blockchain Asia blog and host of Blockchain Asia podcast. Together, we are going to explore the 2024 election, the Chinese-American vote, and their surprising ripple effect on cryptocurrency. Welcome to Back in America, Coco. Thank you for the invitation. I look forward to our discussion. So let's start.
How did you make it from studying English literature and American theater at Peking University to becoming a prominent figure in cryptocurrency? Walk me through the process here. That's a long journey. When I was back in China, mainland China, I was in traditional industry and I had no idea about anything related to, for example, high tech. Fortunately, I came to the US and was enrolled in UC Berkeley Business School. There I was fortunate to have some excellent professors to teach me about high tech, to teach
me entrepreneurship, and also I studied macroeconomics with Janet Yellen. This experience opened my eyes to what came after that. When I was in New York after school, worked in fintech companies for five years until I started my own company, KGA or Key Globe Advisors. During that time, I was very interested in all kinds of new things and New York was a perfect place to pick up new ideas and innovations. I went to meet up in New York and one time I came across Bitcoin blockchain, which was totally new to me, but I was very curious.
After I learned about Bitcoin and blockchain, I fell down the rabbit hole and I really loved it. I decided to drop everything else, whatever I was doing at that time, including investment banking, to just focus on this industry. Since 2016, I've been doing this. I learn about new things every day and that's my passion. Are you still interested in English literature and theater? I am still very interested.
In the beginning, I thought it was just something useless. However, I realized after so many years later that literature, English, American theater really make my life more interesting and also allow me to make friends much easier. In the U.S., I would talk about some movies, some books with American friends and really make our conversation much easier and more fun. That is something I never thought that was the benefit. Secondly, actually the literature and theater really make me think out of the box. You can be creative even in technology innovation, even in startup, even in investment.
Creativity is something that always needs. I still love books, movies, and theater. I do that all the time. When you work with startup founders, one key element is to understand people, to communicate with people, and to figure out what kind of founders they are.
The literature, theater help me connect with people much, much easier. My instinct plays a big role throughout my business activities and interaction with those founders. How old were you when you came to the U.S.? I was past 30. Secret though, I can't tell you too much, but I was already past 30 when I came to the U.S. So I was considered old in my class. Most of my classmates were in their mid-20s. How was it living in China, living in your home country, moving to the U.S. at that age?
Actually, I did not think too much about it when I made my decision to come to the U.S. for a business degree. The only motivation I could recall was to improve my knowledge of business because I was in business after I graduated from Peking University. Although my major was literature and theater, I did not get a chance to use my literature and theater knowledge much. I was in business most of the time, so I felt that there was some gap between my business practice and my knowledge and training.
So I said I should go to the U.S. to learn about business so I would understand the conversation of those companies much better. And another thing is two of my American supervisors in China, they are all Americans, one from Princeton, actually, the other from Michigan. So they always encouraged me to pursue a business degree in the U.S. They said, Coco, you should do it. And I said, okay, let me give it a try. So here I am.
You now live in Princeton. So when did you decide that it was not going to be just study but you were actually going to stay and live in the U.S.? When I graduated in 2002, it was a very difficult time because the high tech bubble burst and the economy was in recession. I didn't have any job offer at all. I really faced the challenge of staying in this country because as an international student, you had this OPT visa that's only just a very short period of time, maximum nine to one year,
but no job offer, nobody sponsor you. That means you have to leave the country. I still wanted to stay in this country because I wanted to learn more about this country, to see how things are operated and how people in this country live, what kind of life they live and how they think, how they do things. These are all the things I was very, very curious about. So I decided no matter how difficult, I still had a window of at least nine months to give it a try. I decided to live the most out of at least nine months and experience as much as I could.
What was your first job? At New York City Opera because I couldn't land any job. In order to make a living and also to have some experience in the US, I knock at every door that I came across and whatever would agree to sit down and talk to me. New York City Opera telemarketer under their marketing department was very kind to say, it's okay, just come and give it a try. When you were looking for the next job, so I gave it a try. It was very hard to be a telemarketer, but I learned so much.
Now everything has its skillset, very special skillset. It trained me not to worry too much about my ego. I just put down my ego. Yes, I was an MBA grad. I came from China. I worked as chief representative of an American company. Was very successful before, but I just forgot about all my history, my past. And I started from scratch.
I pick up the phone and called and people yelled at me. It was very scary in the beginning, but my skin got thicker and thicker. So I keep calling. That was excellent training. Do you have a family in the US? No, I do not have any family. I have one friend in New York who is a sister of my boss, one of my bosses in China. So she allowed me to stay in her place for a couple of months to settle in New York.
She always encouraged me and showed me the best part of the city. She took me to museums, to theaters, and I fell in love with the city. And I said, this is the place I want to stay.
I've got a question about Chinese and American name. I know that a lot of Chinese people, to make it easier in the US, change their Chinese name to American name. Is it something you've done? I have an English nickname. I still keep my Chinese name on my passport. My Chinese name is very difficult for Americans to pronounce. It's Ying Hong Kee or Ke Ying Hong.
So a lot of Americans refused to call me when they saw my Chinese name. I use my English nickname Coco. That name really stuck. They love it and remember me forever. So I stick to Coco.
How did it come about?
When I was in China, one of my alumni from Peking University gave this to me. Because he said I was a little bit nuts. So he said, Coco nuts, you're nuts. The Coco fits you very well. Yeah, so that's where it came from. I like it. People give me different names, Elissa and other names, but none of them survived. Coco stays with me till now.
Coco, let's talk about the American election. Were you surprised to hear that Trump was going to be reelected? Not at all. And I was shocked to see so many people were shocked that Trump was elected. I also was not surprised at all in 2016. You know what my secret is? I talk to people constantly. I feel very comfortable talking to strangers in the street, in the bar,
taxi drivers, or anybody I bump into. And I ask them, who are you going to vote for? And because those strangers, they don't feel uncomfortable to share their thoughts because they know I will not tell their secret to other people or their families or their spouses. So they are very open to me. They told me their frustration, why they wanted to vote for Trump. And so when I read the social media, I was shocked to read the reports, the optimism of the Democratic Party and all the polls.
I just felt that to be deja vu of 2016, I was shocked to see so many people were surprised. That Trump was reelected this time. And so this year I did some research and I noticed that Chinese-Americans or people from Chinese heritage have voted for Trump more than last time. How would you explain that? I can share some insights of the Chinese immigrant group that I know very well. I interact with most of the Chinese immigrants, originally from mainland China. Some have been here for decades, while most of them have been in this country for at least 10 years.
And they work in financial institutions, technology companies, law firms, accounting firms. And most of them went to top schools in both the US and China. This is the group that we are talking about, because I don't interact with people much outside of this group when it comes to election discussion. Okay, I will refer to this group as the Chinese group or the group to make it easier. But first thing first, this group, just like the rest of the country, is polarized. Those who are opposed to Trump share the same mainstream dislikes of Trump as a person or their concerns about his threat to democracy.
But that's not the focus of my discussion. I want to focus on the second group. We voted for Trump. I draw my observations and insight from WeChat groups that I am part of. I belong to at least 15 WeChat groups, alumni groups, classmate groups, interest groups, just to name a few. I interact with Chinese immigrants from different political spectrum. From the left middle to the right.
The group who voted for Trump in the 2024 election, they have some nuanced motivations. Could be different from 2016.
I want to highlight three of the factors. The first is the parallel that they draw between the US ideological trends and China's cultural revolution are reminiscent to China's cultural revolution in 60s and 70s. China's cultural revolution is class-based discrimination. Or the special treatment of people. For example, if you were born into a more privileged background, then you would be sent to remote areas to work in farmlands to be re-educated. While those who were born into less privileged groups or backgrounds, they were favored in
workplace. So that social categorization was a nightmare that's still lingering in Chinese immigrants, especially those who were born in 70s or earlier. So that's one group. And the second group I want to talk about is those who are already parents. They have their children still in school. They grow more and more concerned about the education system in the US, especially based on skin color, based on social catapult, politically active, out of the fears that
their children are facing the risk of becoming the oppressor and also fearful that their children might be losing the opportunity based on merits. Their concern is their children's skin color. They put their children into an inferior position in the future. And the third group of Chinese immigrants who voted for Trump because they are frustrated with the administration's handling of illegal immigrants. They themselves went through all the challenges of immigration processes. It was very painful.
It was very painful. They waited 10 more years to obtain legal status in this country and lived with the fear of losing their legal status day and night. If they lost a job, they fought through it and believed that whoever came to this country with nothing, not much like them, they should come here legally and they should went through the legal process as they did. Everybody should have a fair competition and respect the process. These people don't ask for special treatment in this country.
The only thing they want is a level playing field. As soon as they see systematic barriers to fair competition, they will stand up. Usually they are apolitical. They are not very interested in politics, but as soon as they see the risk and the barriers coming from the horizon, they have to respond and to take action. These are the three factors that I observe and I want to share. It's very clear. The older generation, you spoke about the war culture, the AI, which was reminiscent
of the Cultural Revolution. Then you've got people with children at school and the discrimination based on their skin color or fear of. Finally, all those that have made their way through the very complex immigration process who do not appreciate illegal immigrants coming to this country and not having to go through the same process. I'm wondering what will happen because we heard Trump wants to have extremely high tariffs on China.
We are going to see a big competition between the US and China. Do you think there might be some underlying racist stand against Asian in general, not just Chinese, but Asian in the US with the arrival of Trump? As far as the tariffs and whether Trump's reelection will become a threat to Asian community in the US. It is a very interesting aspect. First of all, the Chinese immigrant community have to balance the two aspects. One is as US citizens, their children's future in this country, if they see some
threat and barriers there, at the same time, how much threat would Trump's reelection and his policies or threat the community's existence and being in this country. So they always have to balance. When they look back, so from some groups discussion, some Chinese pointed out that between 2016 and 2020, there were some, what do you call that, narratives from Trump against Chinese, especially the COVID. He called that a China virus. But now all the Chinese immigrants here, or a lot of them are aware of what happened.
Secondly, they also compare the policies that Biden administration put together and Biden administration's attitude toward China and also towards Chinese communities. They don't see much difference. They don't see much difference. Things even sometimes at certain point, we even got worse. They consider Biden more a real politician. He is much better in dealing with China than Trump. Biden is doing things that are more destructive or damaging to China than Trump.
More Chinese, including those in mainland China, started to prefer Trump to Biden. They said, we'd rather have someone who is more mercenary, who wanted to negotiate, who wanted to bargain with us versus using some very fatal political measures and practices against China. So they prefer Trump. That is a change in the attitude among Chinese, including those in mainland China, which was surprising to me. I read that you have discussed Chinese advancements in electric vehicles and
sustainable energy. I wonder if you think that despite Trump's election, the two countries will be able to continue to work together or maybe start to work together on those areas. There is obviously a big competition between the two when it comes, for example, to electric vehicles. And there is a big dependency on Chinese for sustainable energy. So how do you see that shift happening? First thing, I would say that China is way ahead of the US in electric vehicles.
And so that is the question. So here comes the question. What would be the policy for the US towards China's advantage? China is exporting to the US market. So that is something that the US has to take into consideration. What would be the best for the interests of the US market? And I would say that more Chinese companies, including some EV battery manufacturers, are already thinking about opening a factory in the US because they realize
under Trump administration, there's little chance for them to export freely into this country. I do see a lot of discussion about coming to the US and to manufacture locally, or they start to look into the opportunities in Mexico to see whether they would be able to manufacture there and then export into the US. But Trump probably will keep that door closed. He has different, he has policies to address that loop. That's fascinating. I heard you mention the eco chamber Americans are in, where they look at their market,
they look at their country and they forget the rest of the world. Do you think that Americans are well aware of what's happening in China? Including one of my bosses, he used to work in China. He started to write about China's EV industry and he has so many followers. People here in this country are shocked to learn how advanced China has been in EV industry, for example. And recently I went back to China after five years. My first time after COVID, five years, I haven't been back.
And I saw so many EVs on the road and charging stations everywhere. I can't even recognize a lot of brands running on the street. It's everywhere. China is way ahead. At least in EV, in the just past five years, things changed dramatically. GM in China recently said that they had to restructure their operation. Maybe there were several significant loss out of this restructuring. I'm not sure how many Americans are aware what has happened or is happening in China.
Interesting. I want to switch to cryptocurrency. And so we all noticed that thanks to Trump being reluctant, the Bitcoin went up over 118,000 and that all cryptos in the green. Why is that? How do you explain that? Trump is going to be the first president pro crypto since 2009 when Bitcoin came into being. No president expressed clearly or publicly to support Bitcoin and crypto.
Trump will be the first one. The reason, one of the reasons that the market start to go up tremendously in the past, a month or two, or at least in the past several months, in anticipation of Trump's winning, is because the industry went through a very difficult and challenging four years under Biden administration, especially SEC under Gary Gensler, had been very tough and harsh to this industry. I just want to give you some data point or numbers. So under Gary Gensler's SEC, there were over 120
industry force actions against the industry. But another situation, the administration did not allow banks or discourage banks to provide custody service to crypto related startups and companies. And so a lot of companies were debanked overnight. I just want to give you a simple data. A16Z, this VC fund, they had 30 plus portfolio companies debanked overnight. So they lost all their banking relations. And so it becomes extremely difficult.
Startups were killed because of the enforcement actions. And a lot of them had to wrap up and move to other jurisdictions or just to keep the operation to the minimum in order to survive and hope that one day there will be some change in the regulatory landscape. So the industry is fed up with the regulators overreach, the regulators, regulators, Europe, from Asia, startup founders that the US is their market now for this industry. So some of them wanted to expand their business to the US and some they just wanted to move back to US.
They said, we still believe this is the biggest and the best market on earth. So they wanted to end their life of exile. And that's why Bitcoin and crypto just all went up. It is very bullish. Thank you. So it's a very bullish market. Companies are coming back to the US now that they feel this industry is going to be more secure. Some European countries have endorsed cryptocurrency.
And then you see this huge economic power, the US, who have not. What is the status of crypto in China? Crypto in China is still banned by the government. Although citizens are allowed or legal to own cryptocurrency, exchanges are not allowed to operate in China. And Chinese citizens are not allowed to trade cryptocurrencies. And it is considered illegal activity. And also Bitcoin mining has been pushed out of China because governments consider that illegal.
Because it's related to Bitcoin. How do you explain the fact that government either legalize it or make it illegal? What are the threats for government? I want to understand why some countries are legalizing cryptocurrencies while others are banning it and making it illegal. What are the motivations behind those rules? I can only speak or explain why Chinese government is not friendly to crypto. One of the reasons is China is a capital controlled.
They control the capital outflow. They did not want people to move their money out of the country easily. But crypto is a way for people to move capital around freely. And that's why Chinese government sees it as a threat. That reminds me, when we met earlier on, you said you were recommending that people put part of their savings on crypto just to be able to move from one country to another or to escape something bad that could happen to any country. Are you still recommending that?
It depends on what I recommend people. I did not recommend people to put money in cryptocurrencies or Bitcoin. But I do see examples of how crypto helps people preserve their wealth and also move the capital out of the country when they go through persecution by the government. That is what I saw real cases of how crypto helped them. Let's talk about AI and crypto. I've read that you predicted that AI will be increasingly converging with blockchain technology to create a more decentralized AI system.
Can you explain that? I'm not the expert on this area, but one thing that blockchain will play a critical role in is decentralize the data. Because right now, all the data came from, for example, some big companies like Google, Microsoft, and those big tech. They collected a lot of data from users. But if you want continuous supply of quality data, you need data from users on a daily basis. And you need to create a way to compensate these people.
Broadchain is a way that would enable this. People will share their data through the blockchain. And you come up with compensation scheme through the tokenomics to compensate them, to motivate them, incentivize them to provide their data. Cryptography would enable the privacy of the data. When you provide data to AI for training, you don't want them to see all your private information. So cryptography would also play a key role. And another thing that I would see blockchain play a role in decentralizing AI is GPU.
You can put all the GPU on blockchain and through tokenomics to incentivize people. So NVIDIA provides all the chips to power AI. Through the blockchain and its tokenomics mechanism, you will be able to allow people to use spare computing power to drive the AI. So that AI would not be controlled just by one or two big companies. And so Peter Tills said one thing that really resonated with me. The AI companies are more... It represents socialism or totalitarianism because they control more and more data and power.
While blockchain is decentralized and would try to balance out AI's centralization of computing power. Very interesting. So you see, is it a trend that you've identified where AI and blockchain are coming together? Yes, there are some very interesting startups. They put all the spare computing powers on blockchain and compensate those people who contribute to the computing power. I also see even AI agents are now working on blockchain.
It is a new trend. I don't know much, but I'm observing it. So these are the two things which are growing very fast. That's fascinating. We are getting at the end of this interview. Would you recommend someone that has no clue about cryptocurrency to start investing in cryptocurrency? Where should they start?
I would suggest them to start with putting some money in ETF. Right now you have Bitcoin ETF and Ethereum ETF. Open an account with, for example, Fidelity and just put small amount of money in your 1K and just put a little money to start with and keep it there. Okay. And hold it. So for the long term? Yes.
What is America to you? America is a land of freedom and opportunities, the best on earth. Do you want to add anything to our discussion? I enjoyed the conversation and it's the first time since I moved to this country for people to ask me about what I think of the US and talk about the election. I had no idea about politics before and had no interest in politics until 2016 when Trump took office and opened my eyes and just to understand what it means for politics in this country.
I had no idea before. And so to his credit, a lot of Chinese also start to pay attention to the politics, to the bad, to the best and the worst. Coco Key, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Stan, for inviting me. Thank you for listening. If you want to support the work I do with Back in America, please leave us a review on your podcast app and let your friends know about this podcast.
Our next conversation will be with Professor Maurice Wallace, Associate Chair of the English Department at Rutgers University. We will talk about James Baldwin, Black American vernacular, the legacy of slavery and other topics related to the Black experience in America.