Maximum Lawyer

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

What happens when two successful law firm owners take the exact opposite stance on unlimited PTO and both have the results to back it up?


In this episode, Tyson Mutrux sits down with Kevin Cheney and Billie Tarascio separately, so neither hears the other's answers to get the real, unfiltered truth about unlimited paid time off in law firms.


Kevin Cheney has run unlimited PTO at his 37-person firm for 8 years. He's never denied a single vacation request. Zero abuse. Eight figures in revenue. He'll tell you exactly how he makes it work with KPIs, trust, and the right hiring strategy.


Billie Tarascio tried it. She watched roughly 25% of her team take advantage of the policy, her A-players got fed up, and she eventually scrapped it entirely, replacing it with a progressive PTO system that gives employees up to 6 weeks off and a full sabbatical at 10 years.


Same policy. Completely different outcomes. So who's right?


In this episode, you'll learn:
  • How Kevin built a culture where 100% of vacation requests get approved  and no one abuses it
  • The 3 accountability pillars Kevin uses instead of tracking days: KPIs, client satisfaction scores, and anonymous peer reviews
  • Why Billie says unlimited PTO attracted the wrong candidates and created a "cushiest job" reputation
  • What actually caused Billie's A-players to revolt  and how she handled taking the benefit away
  • Whether a tiered PTO system (unlimited for lawyers, structured for staff) is actually legal
  • What both owners wish they'd known before implementing the policy

Whether you're building your first firm or rethinking your benefits structure, this conversation will sharpen how you think about freedom, accountability, and culture.


Highlights
00:00 – Introduction: The Great Unlimited PTO Debate
01:06 – Kevin Cheney: Why He's Been All-In for 8 Years
03:39 – How Kevin Defines "Crazy" (Hint: He Doesn't Write It Down)
07:18 – Why Employees Don't Always Believe It's Real
10:05 – How Much Vacation Do People Actually Take?
12:32 – Tracking PTO as a KPI?
15:15 – The Hidden Advantage: No Payroll Tracking Headaches
18:00 – Zero Abuses in 10 Years, Seriously
19:06 – Has Kevin Ever Doubted the Policy?
25:13 – The 3 Accountability Pillars That Replace Day Counting
28:58 – What Kevin Would Do Differently
31:21 – Kevin's Advice to Someone Who Tried It and Failed
34:18 – Part 2: Billie Tarascio's Story
36:02 – When Unlimited PTO Worked for Billie
38:44 – When the A-Players Revolted
42:19 – How Bad Did the Freeloader Problem Get? (~25%)
43:07 – The Attraction Problem: Were You Hiring the Wrong People?
48:04 – How Hard Was It to Take the Benefit Away?
51:06 – What Billie Replaced It With (Up to 6 Weeks + Sabbatical)
56:45 – Is Billie Ever Going Back to Unlimited PTO?
58:00 – Billie's Message to Kevin
1:06:01 – Final Advice for Anyone Considering Unlimited PTO


🔗 Join the Maximum Lawyer community: maximumlawyer.com


🎟️ Get your MaxLawCon tickets: maxlawcon.com
🔍 Vet your vendors: beccaslist.co


Maximum Lawyer helps law firm owners build businesses, not jobs.


Connect with Billie Tarascio:
Facebook
YouTube
LinkedIn

Connect with Kevin Cheney:
LinkedIn 
Facebook 


Resources:

Creators and Guests

Host
Tyson Mutrux
Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

Tyson Mutrux (00:01)
All right, we've got Kevin Cheney back and this is gonna be really fun discussion because this all started from a conversation in Facebook. And so we're gonna do something fun with it. We brought on two people to discuss this. We're gonna bring them on one at a time. So Kevin is gonna go first. You get to be first when it comes to this. First we'll have Kevin. He's gonna talk about unlimited PTO and why he believes it works. And then next you're going to hear from Billy Tarascio. She's going to talk about how she tried to implement it into her firm and then made the decision to get rid of it. So that's the lay of the land as to how this is going to work. The question I'm going to ask both of you — so Kevin, you get to answer this one first. And I'm not going to show these to Billy. Billy's not going to know any of your response. But here's the question. I'm gonna start by putting it out there right away. Where do you stand on unlimited PTO right now and why?
Kevin Cheney (01:06)
Great question and I'm glad this came from a Facebook comment as so many intriguing topics do. I'm very much in favor of unlimited PTO. My firm has had unlimited PTO since we hired our very first employee, which would have been about eight years ago. And so it was just three of us back then. We now have 37 employees total and still use unlimited PTO to this day. I think that in the right firm and in the right context, it offers the maximum upside to employees and really, in my view, sets the tone of the kind of firm I want to have — which is where we treat people like adults and we give them freedom, and at the same time we give them high expectations and ask them to meet them.
Tyson Mutrux (02:03)
What was going on in the business back then at the very beginning that made you even consider it? Was there a specific pattern or a certain problem that you were trying to solve? Or was it something you just came up with from the very beginning? If so, why?
Kevin Cheney (02:18)
So I had read — and I can't remember the name of the book off the top of my head — but I had read the Netflix book and knew that Netflix had kind of pioneered the unlimited PTO policy. My firm started with my partner and I right out of law school. We never worked for any other firm as lawyers. And so when we went to hire our first employee, we had no idea about what benefits we should offer, what the rules and procedures should be. And I remember in the interview they asked, "What's your vacation policy? Like, how many days do I get?" And my partner and I kind of looked at each other and we're like, "I mean, there's really no limit. Take vacation when you want." We think vacation is important. I love to take vacation. I think it's really important to reset and take breaks to be a productive employee or even a productive owner. And so we basically were like, don't do anything crazy like trying to take a full year off or leave the week you have a really important trial or court hearing. But other than that, as long as you're getting all your work done, I don't really care how many vacation days you took. And so it was during that interview that we basically formed the policy on the spot and we've used it ever since.
Tyson Mutrux (03:39)
Okay, so you hit right at the heart of where I've heard a lot of criticisms of it. How do you define crazy? Is that something you have in your office manual? Like how do you define crazy?
Kevin Cheney (03:53)
So no, we do not define it. Now what we do is — in order to use the unlimited PTO, you do have to fill out a vacation request form. And that does get reviewed by the department head of whatever department you work in, or if it is a department head, it gets reviewed by me. And it does have to be approved. But basically, I believe it works well on the trust system. And I believe that trust between owners and management and rank-and-file employees is paramount to having a good culture and running a good firm. So there's no real definition and everyone's a little different. We have a lot of employees that love to just take long weekends — they occasionally take a Friday or a Monday off. We have other people that want to take a two-week vacation to Europe. Our top litigation paralegal is actually doing 13 days in Scotland and Ireland right now as we're shooting this interview. To me, what I define as crazy is: it's not going to negatively impact the firm in a substantial way. And what I mean by that is not necessarily how many days you're taking, it's when are you taking it, right? So if you're a trial lawyer, you obviously can't take vacation the week that you have a trial. That to me is pretty common sense. It also means that you're getting your tasks done. So for example, our litigation paralegal had a bunch of initial disclosures due during this 13-day period. So she simply got them all done before she left. She made sure that she had one or two employees covering her so if anything popped up that was super important while she was gone, they would be able to cover. And so as long as you're doing those things, and you have trust in the relationship between the employee and the employer — I've never seen, in 10 years, we've never had a situation arise where anything felt like it was crazy. I don't think in 10 years we've ever denied a single vacation request. We've approved 100% of them over 10 years.
Tyson Mutrux (06:01)
From a written policy standpoint, did you put any guardrails in place or is it truly open-ended?
Kevin Cheney (06:09)
In our policy handbook, it does say that while there is no cap on the amount of days you can take PTO, it is subject to manager approval. And the example I give to people where we wouldn't approve is — we have three intake people and one receptionist that acts as a backup intake person, so we really have four. Our firm could not function with less than two of them here. So if two of them had already requested vacation and then a third wanted to be off during that same time, we would likely have to deny it and say, the firm has to have at least two of the four of you here. So that's the example I give. And I always tell people, you should get your vacation requests in early because it's going to be first come, first served in that scenario. But thankfully that has never arisen. People can see on the calendar when other people are requesting off and they get their requests in, on average, about six months before they want to take the vacation. And it's always worked really well for us.
Tyson Mutrux (07:18)
So when you first implemented the policy — and whenever you have a new hire that joins the firm — was there any hesitation, or has there ever been any hesitation, from an employee wanting to use it because they just don't truly believe it's unlimited?
Kevin Cheney (07:34)
Yes, I do think that it takes a little bit for people to really understand the culture here. And it's not just that — there are several policies that we have where people are like, "Really? Like, that's the rule?" I tell people, if you want any snacks or drinks — literally anything — just tell our receptionists, we'll order whatever sodas, whatever snacks, fancy pens, sparkly notepads, any of that. Literally, we'll buy whatever you want. Just tell them. And people always start with a really small order. Then they see we have cup of noodles and all kinds of random stuff that people have asked for, and then they get a little more comfortable with it. So I try to stress in the onboarding process — I'm meeting everyone when we onboard them, at least for an hour, just to get to know them as the managing partner — and I really say, if anything, I have to encourage some of my employees to take more vacation because a few of them don't take enough. But I tell them, me personally, I think I took nine weeks of vacation last year. I don't think everyone's going to take that much, but we expect that you're going to take at least two to three weeks because we don't want you to burn out. We don't want you to be stressed. We want you to be able to go do whatever you want, whether that's sit on a beach or literally just sit at your house and do nothing — that's cool too. What we care about is we want people working at 100% efficiency while they're in the office. And when you go long periods of time without breaks and without vacation, even the best employees start going down to 90, 80, 70% because they just get a little burned out. So we really try to stress that. But I think it's something they learn when they see other employees doing it — when they see that every vacation request is approved and they see that the firm doesn't burn down. A lot of people worry so much about "What are we going to do when this person is out for a week?" And it's like, take a deep breath. 95% of the time it's going to be fine if you have solid systems, solid planning, and people do the right thing and prepare for the time they're going to be out. I think a lot of people's worry is worse than the actual reality of the situation.
Tyson Mutrux (10:05)
I'm sure it varies from person to person, but on average — whenever you think back to the beginning and your expectations as to how people would use it — do people tend to use it more, less, or about the same as you expected?
Kevin Cheney (10:23)
It really is all over the map, I would say. On average, it's pretty much met my expectations. At minimum, I think people tend to take two weeks. And if people aren't taking two weeks, we may go talk to them and say, "Hey, I think you need to take more vacation next year." It also really varies between employees. The reality is there are some employees that financially can afford to take longer trips. An entry-level non-lawyer probably doesn't have the means to take a three-week Japan trip — and not that they're obviously getting paid while they're gone, it's just the cost of that trip is relatively substantial. As people work here longer and get raises, that opens up their ability to travel more. But what's been really interesting for me is just the different ways people use it. I could not stand going on a trip longer than two weeks — by the end of the second week, I want to get back home. I love my house, I love my bed, I love my job, I love what I do. After two weeks I just miss it. So my prime sweet spot is a one-week vacation. There are other people that love to take one or two days more frequently and just have that long weekend. Some take it randomly in the middle of the week — they want to go to a concert on a weeknight and just want to take the next day off. They're not even going anywhere, just hanging out at their house sleeping in. And then we have other people that really do love longer trips, so once or maybe twice a year they're taking two weeks. But on average, our firm probably averages three to four weeks per year amongst all employees — that's generally around what people are taking.
Tyson Mutrux (12:32)
I wonder if you've considered tracking the average number of days off per employee as a KPI. Have you thought about that?
Kevin Cheney (12:40)
We do not track it as a KPI. We kind of informally track it — because the one criticism of unlimited PTO that is most persuasive to me, as someone who has always been very pro-labor, pro-union, pro-employee, is that it harms employees because people take less. Of all the critiques I've heard, that one is the most persuasive. Am I somehow harming my employees by having this policy? So we do informally track it so that we can have conversations with people who are not taking enough — like, "Hey, last year you took four days off. We would love to get that to a minimum of 10 next year, just so you're having those breaks." And they're like, "Oh great, yeah, I didn't even realize I'd only taken four days." And we were like, "Yeah, let's just take a little bit more next year."
Tyson Mutrux (13:39)
What are your thoughts on requiring a minimum threshold — so it's unlimited but you have to at least take this number of days off. What about something like that?
Kevin Cheney (13:49)
We have thought about it. One of the advantages of unlimited PTO is the lack of tracking. I don't have to do any measurements in my payroll system of hours earned and hours off. When someone takes PTO at my firm, it looks the exact same on their paycheck as if they were here. There's no formal tracking mechanism. So I wouldn't necessarily be excited about having to do that. I also think there are exceptions to every rule. If someone came to me and said, "Kevin, I'm not going to be taking much vacation this year because next year I want to go to Africa for a month," I wouldn't micromanage that. Ultimately, we want to treat people like adults. We want to give people as much freedom as possible to decide how they can best structure their lives and then execute well for the firm. And as long as they're executing well, I'm not really one to second-guess it. I'll have a conversation and say, "Hey, I think you should take more," but it's not a requirement. I'm not going to force anyone to take vacation other than letting them know that we encourage it, we want them to, and they're more than welcome to take as much time as they want. And that's worked well for us.
Tyson Mutrux (15:15)
I think what you just said is a really important thing that people don't think about. The tracking part of it is kind of a pain in the butt. We scrapped unlimited PTO years ago, but we do have a vast system that tracks time and requests and all that stuff. It's kind of a pain when there's a disagreement — "I think I've got seven days," "No, we think you have five days" — and figuring all that out. That's actually why we went away with our bonus system too. We had a ridiculously extreme bonus system that was just such a pain to track. We just said, okay, let's just raise salaries substantially so we don't have to worry about it. It was like that was our fix. So that's essentially what you're doing — it's just from a different angle. Instead of talking about salaries, you're talking about time off. I think it's a smart way of looking at it.
Kevin Cheney (16:07)
Yeah. And the other problem with the tracking and the earning stuff is — what if you hire a really great employee? We average 150 to 200 applications for every single open role we post for our non-lawyer positions. By the time you're making it to the top 10 for an interview and the top three, those people all appear to be A-players. Now, do they all end up being A's after you hire them? No. But we feel like we have extremely good candidates. But what if we hire one of them and they say, "A month after I'm supposed to start, I've got a friend getting married in Italy. I need to take 10 days off"? Well, if they have to earn it, are we literally saying you can't do that until you've worked here for nine months? For the same reason, our health insurance kicks in right away, our 401k kicks in right away. The day you start here, you are now a full employee. There are no waiting periods, no vesting periods. On day one, you're an equal. And then I always get people saying, "Well, are you worried people are going to abuse it? They're just going to get the job to get a paid vacation." And I'm like, if that happens, that's on me. I have a really bad interview and filtering system. If I'm hiring somebody whose only goal is to abuse it for the free vacation, that's an ownership mistake.
Tyson Mutrux (17:55)
I am curious — have you had anybody that's abused it?
Kevin Cheney (17:58)
None. Not one, not one, not one in 10 years. We have extremely low turnover. We've had to fire a few people and we've had a couple of people quit over 10 years. But people, by and large, we like them and they like working here. And so the idea that someone would harm their coworkers by abusing a system — it's just not something that's ever really materialized. And when people bring that up to me, I always ask them, "Well, are you sure you have the right team?" I talked about this at MaxLawCon last year — I want a team that would run through a burning building for me. And I want to be a person who would run through a burning building for my team. And if you have that level of trust and that level of love and compassion for the people you're working with, the idea that one of them would intentionally do something to harm you or take advantage of you is just not something I've seen play out in our experience.
Tyson Mutrux (19:06)
Have you ever doubted the policy?
Kevin Cheney (19:10)
Yes, yes. I've doubted the policy because of what I mentioned earlier — it might not be best for employees. Some people would take less than they would have if there was a set amount of days. And the people that take less, if they were ever to leave, don't get paid out their PTO like they would otherwise. So there have been a few times where I really sat down and asked, "Is this the most pro-employee, pro-labor policy we can have regarding vacations?" And we thought about it hard. Like many things, we talked to the team and said, "Guys, I don't think this is true, but there's an argument that I'm screwing you over with this policy. What do you think?" And all of them were like, "We love this policy. This policy was one of the reasons I applied here. I hated at my other job how hard it was to use my PTO — it was denied, there were all these rules and seniority and different stuff." Unlimited PTO, unlimited sick days, really flexible schedules — all of that is part of the type of people we attract here. The people who want freedom and want to be treated like a full adult. So it was unanimous not to change the policy.
Tyson Mutrux (20:35)
So when someone does take an extended vacation, how do you balance the workload?
Kevin Cheney (20:48)
It really depends on the position. In pre-litigation, there are very few deadlines. As long as you've checked your statute of limitations and set deadlines for when we need to get demands out, there's very few hard stops. We tend to let employees, if it's going to be more than a week, tell the clients: "Hey, I'm going to Europe for the next eight days. I'm going to have my phone on me for emergencies but I'm not bringing my laptop because I really don't want to work while I'm gone. Here's the name of another paralegal or another lawyer." So part of our request-off procedure is you have to put down in your form who's covering you. And then if there's a true emergency — which is extremely rare — we would text them. But 99% of the time, clients are like, "Hell yeah, have a great vacation." Clients are stoked and excited for our employees. They don't care. And if they do have an issue, they have an emergency contact. Usually someone will put it in the team chat: "Guys, I'm gonna be gone for a week — who wants to be my emergency contact?" And you'll usually get three or four people volunteering. People don't view it as extra work. They view it as doing a solid for a friend, but also protecting a system that allows them to take vacation and not have to take their laptop.
Tyson Mutrux (22:22)
So you made me think about something. I was talking to an attorney — I think it was Elise Bowie — and I may be getting this wrong, so I'm not an employment attorney and you're not an employment attorney. But I think she told me that in Washington state, it's illegal to text your employees when they're on vacation. I may have gotten that wrong. But if that is the law, how would you deal with a situation like that?
Kevin Cheney (23:06)
Wow, I don't know. I don't believe that's the law in Colorado. That would seem to be super extreme to me. I will say — we do all salary, but we do pay overtime for all non-lawyers. So if for some reason in an emergency you had to work an hour while on vacation, you would get paid time-and-a-half for that hour. I certainly think employees should be compensated if they're working while they're supposed to be having PTO. Literally not being able to text your employee seems like one of those well-intentioned policies that has a ton of negative effects for everyone, including the employee. I also think a lot of employees would be stressed — I mean, they care about our clients. Literally not being able to contact anyone at the office if an emergency was happening? I don't feel like my team would want that policy. But if that's the policy in Washington, I would definitely advise following it for any Washington listeners. Don't break the law. Check with an employment lawyer.
Tyson Mutrux (24:06)
I've got to chuckle because it's funny. I can't wait for the hate mail and the comments. I may be wrong about it, but I'll follow up with Elise about it because that would be interesting.
Kevin Cheney (24:38)
Yeah, it seems interesting. It seems well-intentioned — there are a lot of people where you get to take vacation in name only. I think about Big Law, where you're on your honeymoon and the partner calls you and says, "Sorry, I need you to drop what you're doing and spend six hours writing this." And granted, if you're making $250,000 as a first-year associate at Big Law, that's part of what you signed up for. But yeah, I think that's kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Tyson Mutrux (25:13)
I'm pretty sure I know how you're going to answer this, but this is something I hear about all the time when it comes to accountability. Whenever someone doesn't have set time off, how do you make sure that they're doing all the work they need to do at a high level — not while they're away on vacation, but in general, because they can take as much as they need within reason?
Kevin Cheney (25:40)
Really three different ways. First and foremost, KPIs. KPIs are essential to every business, every position in every business. You measure it. If you're a legal assistant, what's the average time it takes you to get medical records? How many demands do you get out if you're a case manager or paralegal? On our lit team, we have a rule: no extensions. We don't ask for extensions in litigation. We will if it's absolutely necessary, but that is an extremely negative KPI for anyone on the team who has to ask for one. So we measure it. And again, if you take 10 weeks vacation in a year but you are performing as well as everybody else who takes four or two weeks, why do I care? Honestly, I should have that person teaching my other employees how to be more efficient. That person should be promoted. A lot of owners think, "I don't see them here, they're not here exactly at 9 a.m., and that frustrates me." And I'm like, do you know that's actually harming you? Or is that just a vibe? Second, it's client feedback. Using products like K-Status or others where you can send surveys to clients periodically throughout representation — how are we doing, one to five? If someone's getting a bunch of threes and someone else is getting fives, that's something we'd look into. But again, if someone's getting fives and taking twice as much vacation as somebody else, why do I care? They're getting their work done and clients love them. And then finally, internal reviews — anonymous coworker feedback. We send out Google Forms that say, "We're reviewing Employee A today. How do you think they're doing? How do you think they can get better? What do you think they really excel at?" People will tell you. But if they're hitting all their KPIs, clients love them, and their coworkers love them, then I could care less how many days they are on vacation. I really could. I hope for their sake they can take as much as possible without letting any of those three things suffer, because that's what I would want for my own life. And that's what I want for them.
Tyson Mutrux (28:58)
I love that, that's really good. If you were going to start over — start from scratch and reimplement the program — is there anything you would do differently?
Kevin Cheney (29:12)
I would not, but I do think this is important. I think implementing it from the beginning, like we did, and building it with the firm is different than transitioning to it with an already established firm. And I think that's true not only of paid time off, but also bonus structures and compensation structures — moving from high salaries and low bonuses to low salaries and high bonuses is much harder when the structure already exists. So even though I believe in this policy and would encourage most firms to adopt it, I think you have to be more strategic and more thoughtful about how you implement it, because anytime you change anything, it can throw people for a loop. You also want to be hiring people who would flourish under your system. There are a lot of people at my firm who in my opinion would be horrible employees for a lot of other firms. And quite frankly, there are probably some employees at other firms that are A and B players that would be awful for us, because they flourish in an environment with a lot of structure and clear rules. Ours is much more free-flowing — "These are the outputs we need from you" — and we give people a lot of freedom. I think you've got to be careful because you might have a team that really wants the set PTO days because those are the types of candidates you were hiring. And then all of a sudden switching to a freedom-flow system — everyone's going to be like, "Oh my God, I hate it." So you do need to be smart about transitioning with an already established firm. But personally, having started from day one, I would not change anything about how we developed our system.
Tyson Mutrux (31:21)
All right, so I've got one final question for you and I'm going to try to pick a fight here a little bit. Because as you know, we're going to be talking to Billie, who's someone that's had it and gotten rid of it. So what would you say to someone like Billie who tried it and said that it didn't work?
Kevin Cheney (31:27)
I would say that not every system works for every firm. I personally believe that unlimited PTO is the best system for PTO, both for the owner and management and for the staff. I believe that type of freedom, if done correctly, leads to better results. But I also believe there's multiple ways to skin a cat. There are law firms out there that don't have unlimited PTO and have great cultures and happy employees. I don't think this is a situation where one person is right and one person is wrong. I believe this system works. When I meet with young lawyers who are starting firms, this is what I recommend. But certainly I don't know everyone's firm and everyone's culture. If you've tried it and it didn't work and something else is working better and your employees are happy and you're getting good results, then keep doing that. Keep doing it. It's like trial work — you talk to 10 different lawyers and you'll hear seven ideas that are opposed to each other. Part of learning and part of running a firm is taking in all this information and deciding what works for your individualized situation. So if you're listening to this and you're happy with your current PTO system and your employees like it — don't change. Don't change. You're kicking ass. Keep doing it.
Tyson Mutrux (33:27)
I knew I'd get a great answer like that out of you. You're the best. If someone wanted to reach out to you just to pick your brain about your policy and how they might be able to implement it, how do they get in touch with you?
Kevin Cheney (33:30)
You can always shoot me an email. That's going to be best. So it's kevin — K-E-V-I-N — at cghlawfirm.com. I love talking with people. You'll probably see me at a couple of the masterminds this year for the guild. But yeah, shoot me an email. I'm happy to chat PTO or really anything else. I had so many mentors help me get from nothing to 37 employees and eight figures in revenue and I love giving back. So hit me up anytime.
Tyson Mutrux (34:15)
Thanks for doing this, Kevin. I really appreciate it, man.

Tyson Mutrux (34:18)
Okay, so we are on the second part of this series on unlimited PTO. Just to remind everyone — this started from a Facebook post and some comments. Kevin Cheney took the position: "I'm down to defend unlimited PTO." Billie Tarascio had a different comment: "We do not have unlimited PTO. It worked when we were very small and then it didn't." So we are going to talk about that. Billie, welcome back. It's good to see you. I'm going to start with the exact same question I asked Kevin. Where do you stand on unlimited PTO right now and why?
Billie Tarascio (34:52)
We do not have unlimited PTO.
Tyson Mutrux (35:12)
And why not?
Billie Tarascio (35:15)
I mean, my team is like 55 people. That includes three law student interns who started today. It is not possible or feasible with a group of 55 people — five of them are intake people, many of them cover our offices. It's impossible to say, "Yeah, unlimited PTO," because people have very, very different jobs. Now for lawyers and paralegals, they have a lot more flexibility. But for jobs that require you to be in an office, unlimited PTO just didn't work from the business's standpoint.
Tyson Mutrux (36:02)
Okay, so you at one point did have unlimited PTO. What was it that made you open up to trying it in the first place?
Billie Tarascio (36:06)
Well, it's a wonderful concept. When I first started the firm, our handbook was called "Don't Be an Asshole." It was that simple. Just don't be an asshole. Show up, do your job, be a good team player. Why do I need a handbook? Why do I need to write things down about how people need to dress? Well, I've learned some things in sixteen years. What I think that means and what you think that means and what somebody who's twenty years older or younger thinks that means are all very different things. And employees want certainty and they want clarity. "Don't be an asshole" didn't offer them certainty or clarity. I was not telling them how to be successful at Modern Law, and people deserve to know that.
Tyson Mutrux (37:12)
Sure. I think setting those expectations is great. But when you first implemented it, what worked about it early on?
Billie Tarascio (37:23)
I think when we had unlimited PTO, we were probably three to five lawyers and maybe three staff. We all worked together every day. We were such a small team where everyone had a similar level of longevity and commitment, and it worked. And then you get bigger and you get freeloader problems because humans are humans — some people will take advantage of a system if they can.
Tyson Mutrux (38:05)
Okay, so we're going to get to the freeloader problem. That was my biggest concern. I'm not going to give you too much of what Kevin told me — I want to keep this clean. But at what point did you start to feel like this isn't really going to work anymore?
Billie Tarascio (38:44)
It was probably when other people in the office — very conscientious, very hard workers, your A-players — were coming to me again and again saying, "This is not working for me. So-and-so is doing this." And they weren't wrong. I probably waited too long to correct what was a very obvious unfairness and imbalance. And eventually I was just like, yeah, we're not doing that anymore.
Tyson Mutrux (39:21)
Before they told you, were you starting to see signs?
Billie Tarascio (39:25)
Yes, but I tend to be more tolerant than many. So it bothered others more than it bothered me.
Tyson Mutrux (39:37)
Say more about that. What do you mean?
Billie Tarascio (39:39)
My A-players, my conscientious people, the people who really care about fairness, the ones who are more detail-oriented and less big-picture — I'm pretty big picture. If the team's working, if things are getting done, why do the details matter? And that goes back to "don't be an asshole." But it is wrong when you are a leader of many, many people who deserve clarity, fairness, and equality. They want to know that the same standards exist for them that exist for others. I've spent so much time telling people why "fair" is the silliest word ever, and nothing is ever fair. But by and large, across the board, there does need to be some consistent standards and rules that everyone has to follow.
Tyson Mutrux (40:42)
You mentioned the word fairness — Chris Voss talks about that in Never Split the Difference, that it's such a loaded word. But when it came to metrics, were you able to look at the data and see that the freeloaders were taking more time but doing less, while the A-players were doing more but their numbers were actually being dragged down?
Billie Tarascio (41:10)
It wasn't so much that the A-players' numbers were going down. It was more that the freeloaders simply weren't contributing as much overall. And the A-players felt it and they resented it. It affected the culture and the morale more than it affected the productivity numbers directly.
Tyson Mutrux (41:55)
How big of a problem did it become? Like what percentage of the team do you think was taking advantage of it?
Billie Tarascio (42:05)
Maybe 25%. And look, I don't know that for sure — it's a gut feeling. But when you've got that level of imbalance and your best people are raising flags, that's significant enough to act on.
Tyson Mutrux (42:19)
So was there a moment where you felt like unlimited PTO was actually affecting your ability to recruit the right people?
Billie Tarascio (43:07)
Yes, absolutely. I think we were attracting people who were excited about the cushiest possible job rather than excited about the work or the mission. And that's a problem. Your recruiting message and your benefits signal who you are to candidates. If you're leading with "unlimited PTO," you might be filtering for the wrong people.
Tyson Mutrux (43:50)
That's a really important point. So what did you replace it with?
Billie Tarascio (44:00)
We went to a progressive PTO structure. New employees start at three weeks. It builds up over time as they stay with the firm — up to six weeks for long-tenured employees. And we have a paid sabbatical available at 10 years. It's something that rewards loyalty and longevity. It gives employees something to grow into rather than just a blank check from day one.
Tyson Mutrux (44:45)
Was it hard to take the benefit away from people who already had it?
Billie Tarascio (48:04)
Yes. Any time you take something away, it's hard. People don't like losing things. We tried to frame it around what they were gaining — more clarity, a better system, something that's fair for everyone. But yes, there was resistance and some people weren't happy about it. I think we were transparent about why we were doing it and that helped. But it was not comfortable.
Tyson Mutrux (49:00)
Looking back, do you think you would ever go back to unlimited PTO?
Billie Tarascio (56:45)
I don't think so — not for the whole firm. Like I said, for lawyers and paralegals, there's probably a version of that flexibility that could work. But for the whole organization? No. We need the structure. We need the clarity. Our people need to know where they stand.
Tyson Mutrux (57:20)
What would you say to Kevin, who has made it work for 10 years?
Billie Tarascio (58:00)
I think it's amazing and I believe him. But I also think Kevin has a very specific type of firm, a very specific type of culture, and probably a very intentional hiring process that filters for exactly the kind of people who thrive in that environment. Not every firm has that. Not every firm is at that stage. And if you're growing quickly and you're bringing in a lot of new people with different backgrounds and different expectations, the risks go up significantly. I admire what he's built. I just couldn't replicate it at my scale with my team.
Tyson Mutrux (58:50)
That's a great answer. Billie, before I let you go — if people want to reach out to you, how do they find you?
Billie Tarascio (59:05)
You can find me at modernlawoffice.com. I'm also active in the Maximum Lawyer community and you'll see me at the guild masterminds and MaxLawCon. Feel free to reach out anytime — I love talking about this stuff.
Tyson Mutrux (59:30)
Billie, you're the best. Thank you so much for doing this.
Billie Tarascio (59:35)
Thanks Tyson, this was really fun.