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Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:01.40
Rick
What's up this week Tyler
00:02.50
tylerking
What so break. Ah yeah, how's it going I don't know where um, well it's it's holiday season. So yeah, we sorry listeners. We missed last week because of Thanksgiving. Um, so we're on a new schedule now. But ah.
00:06.13
Rick
Ah, tell me what's up with you.
00:20.37
tylerking
Yeah I don't are does everything slow down for the holidays like everywhere you've ever worked or have you ever been in an environment where it actually kind of keeps going.
00:29.54
Rick
For Thanksgiving in particular I think it's it's a holiday that really shuts everyone down. Um I actually really appreciate it for that reason sort of a fair holidays because I really do think people turn off um around Christmas it's different for ah depending on like especially the health insurance industry. It's still pretty wild. Um.
00:34.20
tylerking
Um, another.
00:44.97
tylerking
With me.
00:47.53
Rick
And then there's a big new year's kind of lot of like people's fiscal years and on December thirty first and so if you're in sales you're like trying to close deals that last week
00:57.51
tylerking
Well, it's interesting. So I've heard that about enterprise sales. Ah, that's certainly like selling to small businesses I like the question is is your customer working or not um, if if you're b two b at least and we are customers are small businesses that they tend to not work. In December so they january hits and they're like oh you know, New Year's resolution I'm going to get a crm I'm going to get organized this year whereas any bigger company. They have to be like in October we're going to try to set a crm um up in January like that they have to buy in October in order to start using it in January. Um, so but but we don't have that enterprise thing where to some like closing deals by the end of the year is a big deal.
01:38.27
Rick
Yeah, and I mean if someone wants to buy something they they buy it online. They don't like talk to someone at your company.
01:45.63
tylerking
Yeah, but but like our things slow down dramatically ah between Thanksgiving and New Year's yeah everything. Yeah, our use usage from our current users goes down and then bounds like kind of.
01:49.61
Rick
In terms of like people coming to the website like what's your what your everything like in down inbound support.
02:00.93
tylerking
It it maybe takes a little bit in January for to fully ramp back up but um, like January February are kind of our probably busiest times of the year in terms of new free trial signups anyway.
02:11.11
Rick
This like to to date yesterday and I would just say like today and yesterday are like some of the busiest days that that I've seen for Jd at leg up health so far. Um, so like coming out of like i. That Friday after Thanksgiving in The Health Insurance Space it seemed like people were like oh like I'll take care of my health insurance and it just serves as as kept up since then.
02:30.11
tylerking
Yeah I need to remember this and you probably already know this because you've worked in health insurance for long time but I kind of was thinking open enrollment starts November first and ghost till December fifteenth right um
02:42.78
Rick
Ah, technically January fifteenth but there's a December fifteenth cutoff for January First start dates.
02:48.78
tylerking
Yeah, so for most people it's just ah, it's anyway, but I so I'm kind of going into it I think I made the same mistake last year where I was like all right November first things are about to get crazy and then they get busier from what I hear from you and Jd. But then it's really like it makes sense. Nobody's taking care of their health insurance. Day one of open enrollment or or very few people are.
03:09.10
Rick
Yeah, it seems like ah I was looking at a health trippa is a big um platform in the health insurance space and they do a lot of the marketplace enrollments through agents like leg up health. Um I think they're reporting like a few weeks in like 2000000 enrollments which is a small fraction of. The total enrollments that that get done during open enrollment. Um, but ah well I mean most of the enrollments happenedpping through health shepa. So um, yeah, yeah.
03:27.38
tylerking
Sorry 2000000 through health sherpa or 2000000 like total. Oh like everybody just everybody uses health sherpa gotcha.
03:41.82
Rick
Um, so I think but like I I think you know there's over 8000000 like individual enrollments and that yeah if you're talking about people I think it's um, even more than that.
03:53.30
tylerking
Yeah, um, but yeah, so in addition to sales slowing down and stuff like that I agree with what you're saying that Thanksgiving people tend to to really take off and um, all that I do think if history is a guide.
04:10.29
tylerking
There are so many ways in which we all tell ourselves an optimistic version of like how much we're going to get done like we as a company are going to get done and there are all kinds of things that mess it up like for example, I'm like oh a developer has five days what can you get done in five days and it's like well I forgot that ah Monday and Tuesday are generally spent fixing bugs like we we. Have bugs wait for Monday um, so every developer comes in on Monday and has a couple bugs effects and it's like oh they they actually only have like three and a half days they don't have five days that's an example, but 1 of those is I always just think of like December is like any other month and I'm like what's the timeline going to look like and it's like oh. Half the team is out for most of the month um nothing gets done. You know so kind of in hibernation I personally love it though. I mean I mean I got so much work done the week of Thanksgiving because
04:50.40
Rick
Yeah.
05:00.62
tylerking
I was working Monday through Wednesday and most other people weren't so I didn't have a single meeting. It was super productive for me.
05:06.39
Rick
Yeah I mean for me, it was mostly just getting caught up just in time to get behind again. So we've got our exec offsite at ah windfall in San Francisco next week and that is just something that you know before it. You you have this big crunch and then during it. You're basically off the grid for 3 or 4 days and it'll just put me behind again. So Chris by Christmas I'll be caught up again.
05:27.20
tylerking
Um, god this is how I feel about like diet where I'm like every time I like weigh myself from like that's a good weight and then I'm like well I guess that means I can eat whatever I want today. It's just kind of oscillating back and forth. You know.
05:39.60
Rick
Um, exactly yeah.
05:44.24
tylerking
Um, cool. Yeah, ah so I mentioned last time I've been coding a lot lately or I kind of started picking up the coding stuff that's still going on I've um, I'm like shipping stuff I've deployed like. 7 things not like big feature like you you try to break things into tiny little poll requests when possible but I've been like actually shipping stuff. Um, she feels good I yeah.
06:12.25
Rick
Um, and and so like I I can't remember what we talked about last time was it that.
06:18.87
tylerking
Yeah, so we I kind of asked and I actually wanted to give an update on this the conversation then was I was kind of saying like should I work on the stuff I know how to do um which is basically you know. A lot of the code in our codebase is still stuff either I wrote personally or at least I wrote like the foundation and maybe there's new code on top of it. But it still uses like the way I used to code and then and that's especially the backend still works the way it always did and the front end is in react and there's like typescript and there's all this new Stuff. So I framed it as should I write react code. That's I've talked with more people about it since then that was the wrong way to frame it I think the real question I've I've had because honestly I know react I don't know why I was framing that way I'm I'm comfortable enough in react I set up our whole react environment. Um. The real question is should I follow all the rules of the developers because something I'm realizing as I there's like a ton of process and procedure and institutional knowledge and stuff that has been developed while I you know I went many years basically not coding on our codebase and now it's like just like let me give a concrete example, but there's like.
07:11.10
Rick
Being.
07:28.51
tylerking
A million other things like this it used to be I write some code I commit it I push it to github I deploy it done now. It's you commit it? a it has like we have unit tests that have to run and maybe they pass and maybe they don't if they fail then I have to go back and get it working and stuff like that. And then we have 2 rounds of code reviews. So I have to like request somebody to review my code and then they approve it and then it goes to a second person and then they approve it and then we have kind of the system for have to like go in the deploy queue and say I want to like raise my hand I want to deploy and it tells me when it's my turn I have to deploy it to the dev server. Test it there I have to deploy it to production like there's just a lot more overhead in doing anything and it all exists for a reason. Um, we take the server down a lot less than we used to you know stuff like that. But I am kind of. Again, that's just 1 version There's there's a a bunch of other stuff. It's not just that deploy flow I'm trying to figure out how much I should follow all the rules versus how much I should be like you know what? I've got this brief moment in time where I can code I'm just going to be a cowboy and go do it.
08:31.81
Rick
Um, why have you played it anywhere.
08:38.41
tylerking
Not so there are things that what I don't want to do is I don't want everyone else on the team to be like damn it I wish Tyler would stop coding ah like if I create a bunch of bugs that they have to fix they're going to resent me there I don't want that.
08:55.80
tylerking
But I am trying to figure out is like so being a founder is kind of a superpower and especially a product like I'm a product designer and so like let me give you an example of like where I'm what I'm trying to think is maybe I should operate a little bit outside of the team because I can do things they can't. And example of this is if you're the normal process for someone getting work done I think this is true on pretty much any dev team is okay here are the designs implement them and ship them. That's kind of the flow and if something's horribly wrong, come back and tell us but mostly do what the designs say. The the reality is half the time when you get into the implementation phase you're like ah this design's not quite right or we designed it this way but like I could cut out 90% of the work by making the design slightly worse and that's a tradeoff I'm happy to make ah I can just make that decision and go. Any developer kind of has to say well I need to go talk to either Tory or designer or me I need to like run it by that. There's just overhead and like every decision kind of creates this new design to dev cycle starting from scratch again and it slows things down. So. Ah, part of me is thinking what I might do is just go through and find all this stuff that needs really quick decisions and just knock that stuff out because other developers. It's not that they're not good enough technically to do it is that they don't have the autonomy to do it.
10:26.89
Rick
Yeah, it's ah, very interesting I'm at windfall I'm in revenue operations and there's a lot of there's there's like different types of tasks. There's like tasks that are like independent and like can be done and there's no like ramifications like like or cascading effects of. Ah, dependencies or like ah potential downsides of ah it going wrong? Um, and those are very easy things to delegate and and you know I have to go through a whole lot of like process to to go from start to finish. Um, there are other things though where you have an automation that needs to be updated. For example.
10:45.65
tylerking
Her.
11:01.80
Rick
Um, there's historical context about that automation. There's multiple dependencies. Um, there's ah potentially like you know, ah you know, ah education needs to happen post. Um, and so ah to actually ask someone to go do that for for someone else to go do it other than me. Ah, it take they they have to like go through learning process. They have to yes and I can do it in 10 minutes is that what you're talking about.
11:25.41
tylerking
Meetings probably yeah, yeah, exactly and the I know the the the other side of the coin is well okay, now you're doing everything like yes, you can do any 1 thing faster than someone else can. And again I'm not saying because I'm a better coder or whatever I'm just saying like I can do it all by myself without running it by anyone else. But like when you're a solo founder this is where you get into trouble or or like when you first start hiring people you're like well I can do it faster than you can I can do it faster than it would take. My of my time to explain to you how to do it. Why have you do it at all like that's the trap you can fall into. Um anyway, that's probably not even related. But.
12:04.46
Rick
Yeah, but it is only only to the extent that like your team is not optimally functioning like so to me this isn't a question of like this thing absolutely needs to get done. Um, who's who's going to do it. It's like your team is at capacity executing. There are things on the side of that. That aren't getting done. Um, if you if you don't do them. They're not going to get done. It sounds like so why wouldn't you just do them.
12:30.87
tylerking
Yeah, okay, so the reason why I think is so let me give some examples of this. Um, there's a lot of little design issues in the app that I just I just went through one I said I have deployed like a handful of things 1 of the things that I just went through and fixed like. Ah, handful of little oh when you mouse over this thing. There's no indication that it's clickable but it is so let's put a little background color on it when you mouse over just little things like that and I can just go through and knock those out whereas any other developer wouldn't be like I need a design for this or whatever. That's the type of thing I'm talking about. Reality is like all also none of that matters and a part of me is like well if I have a a odd employee I want to channel their time into the highest impact thing and I'm going to tell them like that's one of these you know that's this project bulk actions what we're working on right now go work on that. If an employee were trying to do the shit I'm doing right now I'd be like you're kind of just noodling around on a bunch of unimportant stuff.
13:31.14
Rick
Ah, and ah I guess you have to remind me like why are you doing coding and again for fun.
13:38.40
tylerking
I'm I is going to blow your mind because you're so busy right now I'm out of stuff to do I ah the the company's so calm right now where there's just not much else going on like Ceo is normally like an 80% time job for me. And then I fill in the other 20% with random other things ceos like a 10 % time job right now there's just not much to do and for fun I'm loving the coding to be clear. It's way better than being a developer is way better than being a Ceo for for someone like me. Um. But no I I literally don't know what else I would work on.
14:13.43
Rick
I Mean what is there? Any reason I think we talked about this last time just refresh me did you can't jump into the and accelerate the projects that are most important because you're not as up to speed on the Frameworks and the way of developing.
14:25.20
tylerking
Like yeah I can I can do some of it. Um, another problem is as soon as something depends on me I'm always nervous that at any moment like at any moment an employee could quit or we could get sued or you know just things come up and when my 10% Job could go to back to 90% at any Moment. So I don't want to be like deep in I don't want to be a blocker of other people on one of our most important projects and then get pulled into something else. There's some things like I can eat around the edges of some of it. But That's my main concern about just diving in.
14:44.58
Rick
No.
15:00.20
tylerking
And being a normal dev in every other way I don't exactly want to give the impression I'm like agonizing over this. The reality is I'm just like I'm on the playground like having fun right now. But if.
15:01.53
Rick
Yeah, it makes sense.
15:14.62
tylerking
A month from now I'm still I still have time coding I do need to like harness myself a little better than I have been I think.
15:18.55
Rick
Yeah, that's a good I Think that's the key point here is like is this like if if this is just like a break that you're taking and your earre're you kind of noodle like noodling is a good word like and you're you're polishing. Um I think that's a good thing for a manager to do every now and again um, is to you know, think about like I guess the analogy would be like a.
15:34.62
tylerking
Ah.
15:38.44
Rick
Ah, restaurant manager you know it's not that helpful for them to jump in and start waiting tables. But it's it's good for them to you know, walk around and maybe dust off the glasses and you know, Um, oh man, Maybe maybe we need to upgrade some you know some plates. Ah and those are calls that they can make in real time that. Perhaps like the bus boys aren't aren't really thinking about.
15:58.11
tylerking
Yeah, yeah, so um, anyway I'm I'm feeling good and I I have the things I've been doing are very good to have. It's not like I'm working on totally worthless projects. Um, now we'll see.
16:08.78
Rick
How much of your how what? what would happen if you said I am just going to think about how to grow all I'm going to do with this time is how can I make this grow faster.
16:17.52
tylerking
So yeah I went through that thought press that we've kind of talked before where ah maybe a couple months ago I basically said like I have no fucking idea what to do with growth and I'm just placing all of my chips on the bet that.
16:34.29
tylerking
If we just make the product good enough. Not that that will maximize growth necessarily not that that's better than if you came in I'm sure you could figure something out but that it's good enough. Um I I spent like a week maybe when things started to slow down I started with exactly what you're saying I started saying.
16:42.59
Rick
Oh.
16:52.55
tylerking
Obviously I should be working on growth and I went in I'm like okay, let's let's categorize what the growth things are I could I could write content I could do some Seo I could work on ads I could do this or that everything I came up with either. We've already got someone on the team who's executing it as well as I could and I'm not really sure what I would add. Or I have no idea what to do and we've tried a million times in the past and it's never moved the needle at all I just I walked away from that little like discovery experience kind of thinking I I don't really have a good sense of what I would actually do do you feel like you can ah talk me through that or like. Like what would you do in that situation.
17:32.68
Rick
Yeah I mean I don't know I just went to a I just went to a site like 1 of your pages and just like was just like let's go around like this like how to bias see how do I buy Cram looks like a new page I don't know is that new or is that something. Okay, yeah, um.
17:42.28
tylerking
Now that's that's pretty old but the heart Well I'm sorry good.
17:48.50
Rick
I was just going to say like I just quickly like pulled that up and um, it looks like it's not like responsive very well. So like that would be something that's like coding design. Um and potentially affecting your seo um and usability of the marketing site. So like ah the section that says what is the crm. Um, you know. Doesn't doesn't respond when you when you go down to like mobile size. So So what? what I was like I don't know I would just start poking at things doing exactly what you're doing on the product side but this is not I can't explain to you How to do it exactly. It's just like you like.
18:20.56
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
18:24.73
Rick
The the the things I would do is like just go start poking at things like what's the website looking like how many people are on this page right now. Um, yeah, Nope yeah.
18:31.83
tylerking
So I did some of that. Um good point about this page. 1 of the reasons I didn't look at this is get 0 traffic and maybe that's a chicken or the egg thing but like okay here's what what do you think the value of that page could be is it. Seo.
18:45.41
tylerking
Is it that someone comes to our site and chooses to read it highlighted.
18:48.65
Rick
Why I clicked on it because it was highlighted and in the footer. Um, so it looked like an important page. Um, yeah, so like like that's why I just started clicking around I mean I don't I couldn't tell you like why that was important or not but like um.
18:54.69
tylerking
Yeah, we should probably get rid of that. But.
19:03.45
tylerking
Yeah, the the problem. Yeah, you're so you're right I probably should go like clean up the site a bit. Ah the thing is like let's imagine we wanted to invest in that page. There's no way that page is ever making the front page of Google there's no way we're beating hubspot and pipe drive and salesforce and software advice and cap ter like every time I'm just kind of a nihilist about. Ah. Especially like 0 sum game marketing where it's like there are 10 links on the front page you have to be 1 of those 10 we're never going to be 1 of those 10 except for long tail. But I don't even think that exists anymore.
19:41.87
Rick
Yeah, it's true. Do do you like? do you I mean how many how many free trials that never converted. Do you have in your in your version of the crm.
19:52.96
tylerking
Ah, yeah, good question I don't know the number but this is actually something we've just started um so eunice our marketers on sabbatical right now. So like ah some of this ground to a halt while she's gone but we were talking about like yeah let's reach out to I don't know like. 30000 people or something like that.
20:10.83
Rick
That's a lot of people like I mean it's not like that's incremental right? It's not like going to like open up a new channel but like it's something and I don't know that's I know the answer to the question. It's just like this doesn't like this doesn't interest you. It's not something that you want to wake up and do um.
20:16.36
tylerking
Um, yeah.
20:27.21
Rick
But yeah like I guess like maybe it's maybe it's going what if you spent all your time just like going and talking to other people who are good at marketing. Um not marketing but like growth like and and and just like made it your job like for six months and while you've got this free time to just like figure out.
20:39.27
tylerking
Ah.
20:46.30
Rick
1 person to hire to solve this problem.
20:47.10
tylerking
Yeah, well yeah, we can't we don't have the budget to hire anyone now I know you could say well this person could come in and grow it or Yada yada.
20:55.34
Rick
I shouldn't say I shouldn't say the 1 person like your job is to ah seek because like you're limited right now by your internal ah sort of capacity and capability. Um, and you you kind of deem this to sort of like outside like you don't know what to do is what you said earlier on this.
21:10.46
tylerking
Well, and yeah I you remember when we we hired demand maven though to come in and like put a mark a whole comprehensive marketing strategy together and they were like you know Google Adwords cap tarra a little bit of Seo send emails to your newsletters like all the stuff we're already doing.
21:12.92
Rick
Ah, call are you pretty right.
21:30.38
tylerking
I walked away that a huge part of why I'm so discouraged is that not that I'm not saying demand Maven did a bad job but like or I don't know if they did or not but like I walked away from that being like oh so you don't have any ideas either huh.
21:43.28
Rick
Um, yeah, but I do like.
21:45.80
tylerking
You maybe talk to just more people. Maybe.
21:48.96
Rick
Um, I Just um I have a suspicion that ah that if you talk about this enough. Ah and and seek advice on it enough. Not not from like. Ah, consultant. But from other founders and other ah you're going to find someone who solved this exact problem before.
22:14.58
tylerking
I have I have talked to a handful of people and I don't know who that person is everyone seems to be struggling right now many of the podcasts I listen to people are saying like things that used to work just don't work anymore. Ah, do you know anyone who you feel like a small Sas cut like not.
22:18.61
Rick
Are.
22:32.41
tylerking
Lucid Chart but like a small Saas company in a crowded space that seems to be making it work.
22:38.47
Rick
No, but like I believe I could find them. Um, so so like I guess here's what I'm saying is like you're $3000000 plus visit four now. Yeah, so you're a 3 you know to $4000000 ar business um
22:44.85
tylerking
It will be after a price increase goes into effect.
22:53.76
Rick
Okay, so like the downside is you you don't build a lot of margin into your product from a ah operating margin perspective because you you pay everyone a lot of money so there's not a like like a lot of like go spend a bunch of cash on marketing and the the acv small whatever but like. This is something that has worked and it's like there like it should be but that the market is large enough for this that it should be trivial to you know crack some sort of growth code here that takes it to 10000000.
23:13.50
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
23:20.38
tylerking
So.
23:29.92
tylerking
Here's the thing about the this is a thing that his works thing like I've I've said I've framed it this way many times on the podcast before like how did we get here and the answer is I was just building features that seemed cool. I I'm not saying that'll work again. But that that is what worked in the past.
23:48.11
Rick
Yeah I don't I mean I know yeah and I'm not I'm not suggesting that that how you got here is how you're going to get to 10000000 what I'm saying is when you have a $3000000 business in a multibillion dollar market um with extremely high csat and Nps scores retention and ah, you're the lowest priced best product like ah.
24:14.66
tylerking
Well, we're not the best part I mean of everything you just said though the thing is product quality is the weakest of all of that. Yeah, fair enough.
24:19.77
Rick
When you're the lowest priced option that is good enough. Let me say it that way like ah, there's there's something like okay like someone could take that and go okay I could turn this into a $10000000 business now. What I don't know is what budget they need to do that. And and perhaps like anyone who could do that would require ah funds that that the operating budget doesn't support.
24:46.15
tylerking
Well and I mean even setting aside the operating budget like there I think what we are seeing over the last six months or so is there were a ton of quote unquote high growth successful saas companies that were all just a a zero and just straight phenomenon. None of them were growing in a way that actually works economically they were they were spending $2 to make $1 which is part of why it's so hard for companies like us to grow is because like the Adwords cost twice as much as they used to.
25:15.28
Rick
M.
25:18.19
tylerking
I Agree there's a certain you could spend money and get customers. Could you spend money and actually make that money back.
25:25.40
Rick
Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly what I'm saying with the operating budget. That's it. But you say you're saying ah much more eloquently which is like on a unit economic space as can you make it work and um I don't I believe like the answer is yes, um, it has to be.
25:27.11
tylerking
Okay I thought you men are yeah okay.
25:41.55
Rick
And I believe if you can't perhaps that is an argument for you to raise prices.
25:45.10
tylerking
Yeah.
25:47.19
Rick
So the the point is like whatever it if some whatever it takes.
25:52.17
tylerking
I we can't we can't raise prices and and what I mean by that is what you said earlier is we're the cheapest option and we're good enough a $5 price increase we're not, we're not as cheap as pipe drive anymore. Um, and they have every feature we have and more.
26:07.64
Rick
Gather They have a they have a good but that's what we is.
26:08.11
tylerking
Um.
26:13.40
tylerking
Yeah, pipe pipe drive is a good product I think we're a better product for a lot of people. Um, what I'm I'm not what I'm about to say is a total cop out and not exactly confronting. You're you're saying the right thing you're right? and I also think at the end of the day. What you said at the beginning of the switches I'm going to go do what I want to do what I enjoy doing is. Probably the answer but like the way I'm kind of rationalizing it is I think in 2014 or like pick a year where we had good growth and that was one of them. Ah, you could say basically we have more or less all the features any others here. Not. We don't have the enterprise features that they have but like if you look at any other crm. There's like 3 or 4 pricing tiers and 1 is around what we cost and then one's twice as much and 1 ne's five five times as much and 1 ne's 10 times as much we're not competing with the higher pricing tiers. We're competing with the lower pricing tier of all our competitors and in 2014 we had all the features they had and. Plus we were cheaper. Plus we had better customer service plus our product's easier to use in 2023. We don't have some of the key features and I do think like catching up is an important part of um of being able to attract customers now. That doesn't negate what you're saying that we're kind of neglecting marketing. Potentially.
27:30.90
Rick
Um, yeah.
27:31.91
tylerking
But if that's an important part like and I can contribute so much I know how to do that I know how to contribute whereas every marketing thing any of us have tried over the last five years seems to have been a total flop. That's what's so hard about it.
27:48.44
Rick
No I know um I wouldn't I don't think you can do anything differently but it's just the the only thing I think that that that I would I think all I'm trying to draw attention to is. There is another use of your Ceo time which is.
28:02.75
tylerking
Yeah.
28:05.89
Rick
Identifying future talent and future longer term roadmap items that could grow the business in the future. Um, that might be more like it might be extremely uncomfortable for you and it might not like lead to any value in the next year but it's something that could be the difference between like. Millions and millions of dollars of growth ah in the next ten years um and you don't always have time to do these things and it sounds like right now you have the time to sort of daydream a little bit and instead of polishing some back shadows. Ah that might be a better use of your time.
28:38.44
tylerking
And so just to recap you're saying basically go talk to a bunch of people and say who has the skill set to actually grow this company with the the margins that we've got.
28:50.15
Rick
Yeah, and maybe maybe maybe broader than that. It's ah, articulate clear make sure you're clear on what your vision is for the company in 10 years um and and start reverse engineering that um and ah, thinking talking to people who can help you think through that. Um, ah. 1 of those things I think would would be like let's imagine a world where we have ah ah a a a marketing function that is um, you know like a big part of our growth like which I I don't know if that's part of your vision or not maybe it's not um, yeah.
29:21.92
tylerking
I mean I'd prefer not if if we could grow the way we did ten years ago I'd much rather go that way. But that's maybe a big if.
29:29.49
Rick
Yeah I guess I guess I guess um I don't know what the right words are to say to ah to to the p to to I don't know what the right specific focus is but I think the general area focus is thinking beyond the next year and um, assuming that that you've got the team to execute on what you need right now and and getting further ahead than you've ever gotten. Um and developing relationships that can help you in a year ah and thinking through the next set of problems that you're going to face if. Ah, things go as planned and if things don't go as planned.
30:07.88
tylerking
I Can we I know we've been talking about me for a lot. But so what you just said, sounds good at a high level but also I have no idea what any of it means kind of like ah like so first of all I I want to know we're not a highgrowth company.
30:13.34
Rick
He.
30:23.76
tylerking
Your you know your day job. You're used to like every six months everything changes and you have when you say think ahead, you're thinking what is the company going to be a year from now even if everything goes well a year from now less serum's going to be fundamentally more or less what it is today. It's just instead of adding 600 users a month we're going to add 700 users a month um that's that's what I want and it's not like a radically different company than what it is today I I do think like my sense is it's very tactical is what the the challenges we face are they're not vision related. They're not strategy related. Do you disagree with that.
31:00.14
Rick
Um, this may just be a way of thinking that I have that that maybe is different but like um, what are the risks like whatever your goal is if it's seven hundred in a year then it's probably 10 years it's what fifteen fifteen hundred so so everything is around like how do we get to that 1500? Ah, okay so 60708 like in 10 years multiply it times 10 oh okay, yeah.
31:21.34
tylerking
Well let's put I'm fine with linear growth I do not need accelerating growth the same net growth forever. The reason when I say 600 users I don't mean net I mean gross or whatever like 600 new users. Ah.
31:34.53
Rick
E.
31:38.87
tylerking
550 churning. So we're adding 50 users a month I'm kind of making up numbers. But let's use that I'd like to be adding 700 so're adding one hundred and fifty a month and in 10 years it'd be nice to be adding like. Because we're bigger. We'll be churning more but I'm fine netting 150 users a month ten years from now like I'm not trying to become a totally different company. You know.
31:55.51
Rick
Okay, yeah, and and and they're not that's not but I'm suggesting um I guess what I'm trying to say is like I think I think the right conversation is like what's the what's your role as the Ceo of this company.
32:08.50
tylerking
Um, yeah.
32:10.18
Rick
And that's what you're That's how you talked about the that's how we're That's what we're talking about right? like we got lost in the coding weeds for a second there but like that's fundamentally what what we're talking about you have a plan that you're executing. Um there. There are risks with that plan. There are threats to that plan. There are opportunities to accelerate that plan. Um. There are people ah that that are are part of that plan that or are and people that are not yet a part of that plan. Um, and I think if you were to like spend time thinking through like what are the risks. How do I mitigate Them. What are the threats. How do I mitigate them? Um, what? what? What are my like what what people am I going to need in the future to to be able to execute this do I have the. The the bench for that. Um, and the relationships to to hire for that. Um, it might it might cause you to like do things differently. But if it if it doesn't then maybe you just do what you're doing.
32:58.35
tylerking
Well, when I say it's about tactics though. So I've done all the things you just said probably poorly I think that's the problem. The problem isn't that I haven't given myself like I've spent more much more time over the last two years thinking about growth. And building a growth team and what's how to operate it and what how to prioritize things much more time on that than I have on product. Um, and it didn't work so I'm not.
33:23.76
Rick
Ah.
33:24.12
tylerking
I'm not telling you you're wrong that there's opportunity for it to work. But it's I don't think it's about giving myself space. It's I don't know what the fuck to do you know.
33:31.51
Rick
Yeah, and that's and and generally like what what you don't what to do? It's like it's like where why I went to like go talk to people and tell them that you don't know what to do and let them ask you questions I do that like a hundred times. Um, yeah.
33:39.30
tylerking
Yeah, so I've done it like 10 Maybe the problem is that those extra 90 would would do it but the 10 I've done have not been encouraging like I hired demand maven I've talked to a handful of founders. Everyone's like.
33:46.92
Rick
Um, yeah.
33:56.41
tylerking
I Don't fucking know what like specifically what type of person you think I should be seeking out to talk to I know you don't know the purse like um.
33:58.34
Rick
Um.
34:05.33
Rick
What's interesting like I've talked to a bunch of people about this problem like every founder is wants to grow and every founder needs help growing and they don't if they knew what to do. They wouldn't be talking to me right? like so they like I talked to founder.
34:15.90
tylerking
So sorry they're coming to you because they're like I'm struggling. Can you help me Rick or okay.
34:21.38
Rick
Yes, yes, yeah, or or not I'm I'm struggling. They don't phrase it like that usually like hey I'm a half a million dollar business or I'm a million dollar business and I want to get to 10000000 ah you know or 5000000 and you know I I'm I'm I'm the bottleneck. Ah, it's it's it's it's less. There're more generally more sales.
34:39.31
tylerking
Yeah.
34:40.47
Rick
Oriented then technically oriented and they're just like bottlenecking on growth growth scalable growth and so like it's a common problem right? like you you you you sort of Plateau at this place and and as a founder you don't know what to do and so.
34:46.74
tylerking
Okay.
34:57.89
Rick
Fundamentally, you're seeking a person who can come in and figure out how to do it like that is the main lever for growth. Um, and so I think you want someone who knows how to grow a business. Um, ah but but like I guess like I don't know i. I think I I don't think you've ever this is where we're less knowing Crm is extremely different than any other business that I have talked to which is you haven't solved problems by hiring people from the outside you've solved problems. Yeah.
35:27.32
tylerking
Yeah I've tried that has gone horribly wrong I've tried. But yes, you're right.
35:33.85
Rick
Yeah, but I do think like and that's worked Well I think for service and development and product and and in your realm of of excellence but like there's just missing it just feels like there's just missing like sort of domain expertise on the gross side of the business. Um that that. Ah.
35:42.64
tylerking
Um, yeah.
35:52.40
Rick
Only get solved by adding a person. Um with that domain Expertise um to to complement the existing team.
35:59.50
tylerking
I think I can buy that so eunice is not that person in the sense that she hasn't done it elsewhere. I think she's doing She's putting in the input I don't like my guess is it's.. It's not that she's failing because she doesn't know what to do or whatever. She's not failing to be Clear. We're just not crushing it. We're not crushing it and she would say that too but like I guess my guess is if we were to do this someone else would come in and do no better than her I think she's doing all the right stuff I think that this is fundamentally hard that.
36:21.15
Rick
Yeah I wouldn't say she's feeling. Yeah.
36:34.20
Rick
Yeah.
36:37.50
tylerking
I'm willing to experiment with that. But I I'll just say right now like the idea you're talking about hiring I would be very open to so this is what what demand Maven was and maybe we need to try more of this but like I wouldn't hire someone because I don't think they'll succeed. And I don't want to put someone in a position position to fail now I'd be happy to bring on a marketing agency I'd be happy to bring on a freelancer because they're going to leave anyway. Pairs. Um.
37:03.50
Rick
Yeah.
37:06.49
tylerking
Do you think the person you're talking about could be a temporary person like that or you kind of saying no this needs to be a cultural shift this needs to be like it needs to be a actual member of the team.
37:17.67
Rick
Oh I don't know. Ah, but I just I think exploring that is something that would be interesting use of your time comparatively to what we've been talking about like so truly like exploring ah levers there.
37:22.75
tylerking
Um, yeah.
37:31.57
tylerking
I.
37:33.48
Rick
But maybe you've done that like to your point and you're like hey I'm I'm going to play this that I'm going to play this the way that I want to play I like know how to play and and I'm and ah I'm be happy with there's I'm going to be okay with the results.
37:39.91
tylerking
Um, yeah.
37:44.87
tylerking
It's not a money thing to be clear like you know, two years ago or one year ago when we were when we were doing the demand Maven thing we kind of said you know if we spend one hundred or two hundred thousand dollars on trying stuff. Even if none of it works. That's like I'm I'm willing to eat that that's fine. Um, and we did. You know we so I don't remember what we spent on them but it was probably 50 or something and we've spent way more money on various ad channels and some of its work some it hasn't I'm happy to pay someone money to come in and try this, you're saying talk to people I mean i've.
38:17.72
tylerking
I'm just like stalling at the execution of this who do I pay to come in to do this I've talked to people and no one's been like oh you got a it's it's Brad Go go Hire Brad You know.
38:27.55
Rick
Yeah I don't I I think like there's not the board to talk about here I just it's networking Tyler and you hate it. It's.
38:38.21
tylerking
Yeah, also I should say you can network remotely St Louis does not have this person like there's there's no successful sass company in St Louis basically um
38:47.80
Rick
Yeah.
38:52.95
tylerking
I'm going to big snow tiny conf in a couple months I might ah yeah I mean I did I did this last year there too and again and there was actually like a marketing expert there. Well everyone there said the same thing not not to me but everyone had everyone. There is like I've got a pretty successful business. That's stalling. What do I do like that's kind of the.
38:52.96
Rick
This would be a great topic for that. Yeah, this is still talking about this.
39:12.13
tylerking
Not literally everyone but um anyway, okay I'll keep this in mind I will let me just like cap off my since we've been talking about me. Yeah.
39:12.98
Rick
Ah, yeah.
39:21.30
Rick
Yeah I want to say 1 thing about your business that um, it kind of terrifies me a little bit. Ah not for you but like in general like when I'm thinking about business. Um, and I have a similar but kind of player you're in a business that is ah competing a gets funded startups. Um and like pipe drive is extremely wellfunded.
39:23.75
tylerking
Are.
39:38.98
Rick
Um, and ah like at the end of the day like their product is really really good I have I have the same sort of feeling ah relative to gusto in the in in the health insurance space. It's like they do so much and they're cheap and they're like actually I use them So like you know it's like it's It's just like so good. Um.
39:47.26
tylerking
Yeah.
39:54.37
tylerking
Um, yeah.
39:58.43
Rick
And so ah, the the element that like I always fall back to it like a pt is we're going to be so good at this One thing and it's it's it's going to be. They're going to buy us and um and I don't know if that works on the in the crm because you're you're kind of like either it or not it. Um.
40:12.26
tylerking
Um I don't think that works for yeah.
40:17.20
Rick
But but but but maybe that argues for a a add on service then making the so existing service better. Um, that's playing more defense long term than than ah you know trying to compete head to head.
40:28.91
tylerking
Yeah I mean that definitely makes me more bullish on the forms thing that we've been talking which is one of our top priorities right now this reminds me of a conversation we've had before about like sass is very hard um content like selling books or courses much easier and one of the big reasons. It's much easier is ah just because a person bought a book On. Startups doesn't mean they're not going to buy another book on startups. Um, it increases the odds of them buying another one any business where your competition isn't really competition because someone might buy both.. There's other reasons why it's not as good. But yeah, it's that's an appealing characteristic and I agree.
40:47.64
Rick
Yeah, yeah.
41:05.42
tylerking
Like up health could definitely have that.
41:07.50
Rick
Yeah, like like we've seen it with gusto like Gusto does group health insurance. They do payroll. We don't We don't do payroll but we do health insurance a lot better and it doesn't cost you anything so just like exactly exactly? yeah um yeah.
41:13.53
tylerking
No one's buying gusto because they do group Health insurance. Yeah, okay, we've talked. Thank you for humoring me. Let's what what about you know.
41:23.10
Rick
No I found that really useful for me I I thought that was fun to talk about So I don't know if it was helpful to you at all. But um.
41:26.19
tylerking
Cool I I Actually I don't I don't know if it made good listening but some something I kind of to to meta conversation real quick I think my favorite podcast episodes we do are ones where we don't my least favorite ones are ones where I come in and say here's a thing I did. What about you? What did you do and the ones I like are some kind of debate or brainstorming or like we're trying to make for even if we fail I Think in this case, we kind of fail but I appreciate all your thoughts I'm going to try it I'm going to keep it in mind but I enjoy a back and Forth. We're actually trying to build new ideas.
42:01.36
Rick
I agree I yeah, and I just want to say 1 more thing about this I the last thing that I just said I think is actually what I think takes me away from advocating for going and figuring out how to grow what it is today and more about like. Figuring out that next product. Um that you could sell independently. Um, which I didn't think I was going to end up there I don't think I've ever gotten there I've yeah yes, yes, so so you know and I think like every time we talked about features in the past it was always like how do we.
42:27.88
tylerking
She's saying I get to go code is that what you're telling me is that what you're telling me.
42:36.80
Rick
Make this year. How do we grow the crm business. It wasn't like how do we defend the business against um, you know you know, kind of being a one trick kind of pony and that's that's a very different conversation that I don't think we've ever had before.
42:50.57
tylerking
Yeah, so I I think I've said this much less eloquently. But I'm starting to hone down what I think we need to do with product is meet the baseline of what people expect with the crm. Um, and then figure out something we do better. Um, and the problem is like. Five years ago we met the baseline and today we don't and even if we do maybe we should just do the thing we do better but I think like a business I would really like to run I would enjoy and that I think would work is were cheap. We have great customer service and we do all the shit you need from a Crm. So. We're tied with everyone else and then what about this other thing. So yeah for a lot for our current customers. The other thing is either customer service or simplicity. Um, but I I would love it if it's oh and I'll see you don't have to buy a forms tool and an appointment scheduler and it's.
43:29.28
Rick
And what's out of the thing.
43:46.49
tylerking
It's like more of a business in a box and less of just like a crm.
43:48.70
Rick
Yeah I mean if you compare yourself to like a pipe drive. These are all add-ons and they can't get for the base fee. Um, cool. Yeah, no, yeah yeah I got I've got a couple of up of of things like last last time you're talking about like.
43:54.81
tylerking
Yeah, so ah, all right? Thank you I Know you've got a time limit here. Do you want to talk about yourself.
44:06.94
Rick
Ooh did we hit it in afflexction point at Legup Health I think we were talking about um the product that you built in July called legup benefits we we offer we created a free version of it. Um, that basically takes away the service component and just makes it so that it's ah ah, ah, a. A way for employers to add employees to our concierce our our ah our lead kind of as a lead tool and that's gone really really? well. Um, we've generated a lot of leads and it's just eliminated friction and selling the concept. Ah. And so now we've got this different problem where we've got a bunch of leads and how do we? How are they going to convert into um clients. Um, and so that's playing out. Um, ah one one client. It's like ah 20 I think a twenty five thirty percent conversion rate which um is lower than what I would have anticipated.
44:54.68
tylerking
And so it's so a client adds x number of new employee 10 employees and you're saying 3 of them make us their agent.
44:59.19
Rick
10 employees? Yep um, and we've had a couple since then we've also had a few ah customers elect to pay for the service for their employees and so it's been um, it's been interesting um to to watch that happen i.
45:09.53
tylerking
The home.
45:17.46
Rick
I I do feel like we hit an inflection point. Ah for like I don't like we're not like figuring it out anymore. We're now like in this we're not figuring out how to sell this thing like jany and I had ah ah a we have a weekly touch base on Wednesday mornings and he told me he goes I don't I can if if I have a a. A marketplace client. Um ah, health insurance. Ah consumer who is not ah who who is not our client yet but they have health insurance. He knows how to ask for the aor for to be the agent of record for them. Um, and get it like we did not do that at the beginning of the year
45:48.83
tylerking
Um, ah.
45:53.76
Rick
Ah, we didn't know how to do group health insurance at the beginning of the year so we started doing that and we've got to figure that out. Um, and then now we've got this like at benefits thing in our tool in our in our tool set. That's like um, we can now like offer it for free or and we've proven that we can charge money for it multiple times. Um, and so I feel like we're going to exit this open enrollment period with. A lot of like learnings in terms of like what is actually how does this like flow down into money. But more importantly, we're not going to have to go spend next year figuring out how to do all this stuff. We're just going to go. Okay, how do we grow this thing and ah I think it could be a very different challenge.
46:27.59
tylerking
Yeah I ok I agree with all that but I'm I let me and propose that maybe there's a thing between where we are and let's grow this thing which is do we have total clarity on what the thing is and what I mean by that is. Yeah, the consumer thing and asking for aor is working better than it was and now we know how to sell group insurance and now we've got some leg up benefit stuff if you imagine a company that's op that's executing really really well 5 years from now. It's not probably It's probably like 1 of these things dominates.
47:02.30
Rick
Yeah, it's and it's um, the the 1 thing is the leg up benefits thing and and but but but the a but but the aor thing is a big piece of that.
47:02.38
tylerking
The business model. Do you agree with that. Okay, so that's yeah, sure. Absolutely I you said 30% conversions less than you were guessing or hoping or whatever but the the flip side is a rich like. In a world where people where employers are paying for leg up benefits. It's hard to make that sale so you're you you know you're converting one out of 10 employer leads and then you're only converting converting 30% of their employees and that sucks in a world where it's free.
47:38.97
Rick
Um.
47:41.95
tylerking
My impression is there's no reason that like every single company that doesn't offer group insurance should be using like a benefits like why would anyone say no to this in which case 30% could be fine right? It could be like we've got a 100000 employees in here.
47:47.43
Rick
The only reason would be our inability to articulate what we do? yeah.
47:59.50
tylerking
30000 of them made us the agent and that's a great business. Are you leaning more towards like you said some are paying some are free like ah what's the rhymer reason behind or I don't know do you like if next year do you think a better.
48:05.35
Rick
Yep.
48:17.62
tylerking
Growth focus is go get a bunch of free employers or figure out a way to make money from the employers directly.
48:26.88
Rick
Um I think it's it's it's get a bunch of employers and um, some of them sell some of them paid and some of them free and um, don't worry about what the mix is um, some of them are going to be groups. So so I think if we if we.
48:36.47
tylerking
Ah.
48:39.35
tylerking
Um, yeah.
48:43.47
Rick
The the thing I fantasy it fights about is I think our sweet spot is going to be this like 10 n to fifth 10 to 20 employee company I think it's gonna be bigger than what it was that people keep um and and say benefits which was more like a four or five percent company and I think if we could go get. 50 of these 10 to 20 person companies whether they're on group whether they're on legup benefits whether they're on leg up benefits paid or free. Um I think that is what we want to go try to do next year. Um, and that that translates to some form of revenue. Um, and I think we'll figure out what it is that that triggers.
49:12.15
tylerking
Yeah, yeah.
49:18.21
Rick
Someone to go? Oh yeah, this is worth ah, two hundred bucks a month me paying a subscription for versus me doing the free version. Um I don't I don't know exactly what the cutoff is for that. But I think I think it's some one part so like software service. 1 part service.
49:24.37
tylerking
Um, yeah.
49:31.28
tylerking
The reason I'm asking about this is like you know as we just spent 40 minutes covering I'm allergic to marketing I just find it very difficult selling group insurance sounds very difficult and charging people. Twenty bucks per employee for. Like a benefits sounds very difficult in the way that leg up that that lessening serum's very difficult if you told me go market a free product for companies that don't have insurance right now I'd be like that sounds fucking easy like that does not sound intimidating me at all.
50:00.14
Rick
Um, yeah, um, yeah, so I think um I think it's hard in that. Ah, ah so it's I think it's hard to sell a free thing to ah ah a general. Entity that doesn't necessarily have pain today I think it's easier to sell hey you have this problem and we're going to solve it and part of the reason we position the company as a group health insurance leg up benefits or individual health insurance is to be able to go out with a message to our icp our ideal customer and say.
50:35.49
tylerking
Um, but.
50:36.41
Rick
We don't care what you're doing today. We don't care what you do in the future. We've built a service that is will support you offering the best benefits you can um, let us serve you if you're on group health insurance. We'll become your agent and no cost to you if you are on if you don't offer health insurance. We have a free service ah that you can start offering tomorrow. Um and we don't know necessarily whether or not when we're when we're reaching out whether they have group health insurance or not but we're ah, kind of taking them out take we're saying that we can solve the problem no matter what.
51:10.43
tylerking
Absolutely, But you you were talking about pain who has more pain a company with group Health insurance or company without and I think it's the one without.
51:21.23
Rick
Um, yeah I don't know actually J D would say that the the people with group Health insurance have a lot of pain. Um, but from an administrative standpoint. Ah,, there's so much involved and in executing it. Ah when you when you hire someone. The renewal process is Awful. Um. It's expensive.
51:41.79
tylerking
Yeah, are they seeking out like I'm not saying It's a good experience but I would think that they're kind of thinking Well, that's what group health insurances were doing it someone who doesn't have group health insurance as someone ah entrepreneur who was.
51:43.86
Rick
Um I don't know.
51:56.50
tylerking
Until somewhat recently running a company without health insurance once a month in employees like hey where's our health insurance Buddy. Ah I Just feel like it's a much more acute like there is a thing like. This people are bringing this up with me. My employees are bringing this up with me all the time Anyway, I'm kind of going on it.
52:11.98
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think it's it's absolute I think that our icp is a so we we we can't look up publicly. Whether people have group health insurance or not in the in the size ranges that we're going after and so fundamentally we need to have a message that.
52:24.82
tylerking
Um.
52:31.39
Rick
You know positions us regardless of whether they offer group Health insurance or not but as we reach out to people. It'll be interesting to see like is the response rate and the conversion rate for a company with group Health insurance versus without higher lower different. Um as we as we start that outreach. Um and and.
52:44.65
tylerking
Yeah.
52:50.10
Rick
And gather the information. But I think we need to I think next year is it's going to be about like how do we? How do we do that very intentionally um and how do we measure sort of what's working and what's not and then do more of what's working and less of what's not and it could be. It could be that the free. The free version is what is what resonates and I would have no problem.
52:57.13
tylerking
Um.
53:01.52
tylerking
Yeah.
53:09.94
Rick
Like saying that's what we do and then yeah yeah, we also do those things when you when when when you when you need it but but but but put outreach. Maybe that's what we lead with.
53:12.68
tylerking
Um, yeah, that's because like a thing that happens to to lessening serum and other like bottom of the market Sas products. All the time is someone starts using you and then they kind of graduate. Beyond you I could I wouldn't shock me if 5 years from now the group and the paid like up benefits is what people graduate to it's rather than letting them graduate to something else. They graduate to this but the entry point for almost everyone and I'm I'm just theorizing like I fully support what you're saying of like let's go find out. Um that just feels intuitively.
53:48.20
Rick
What what people graduate into right now is actually group health insurance like yeah and then it's it's it's and then between that maybe it's a paid lug up benefits.
53:49.20
tylerking
Reasonable to me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but that we're not selling group Health insurance to a new client by and large in in if if this guess that I'm making ends up being correct. It's like a freemium product right? Like you don't.
54:08.37
Rick
Um.
54:12.32
Rick
Yeah I guess what I I guess like yeah if you work through like a workflow. Let's say we get a referral from a a customer that doesn't have group health insurance currently um, which would be the scenario if they already had group health church with my Aol it but that's different. That's a different thing so there's a company that doesn't have group health church today. It's like hey I'm interested group Healthman Church was like great happy to run quits for you but you should.
54:12.44
tylerking
It's It's a bottom up instead of a top down.
54:23.10
tylerking
Um, yeah.
54:32.60
Rick
Ah, start immediately on free I free like a bit of its account like regardless of what we desire? Yeah, go ahead and get started. We can start the Groupel the church presses independently of that.
54:33.11
tylerking
Yeah, 0 downside. Yeah yeah, exactly and they get the quote and probably year one they look at and they're like yikes and then a few years later they're like all right I'm ready.
54:47.95
Rick
1 one of our legups ah benefits customers. Um, for 3 years every year. It's like you know, let's sort reevaluate group health the ches that every year it's like that's too expensive. Yeah yeah, um.
54:58.15
tylerking
And it just keeps getting more expensive but cool. We we had a time where you want to talk about this Ah other topic here.
55:06.30
Rick
Um, I'll just mention that it's it's related to planning but I'm I'm really excited about ah we had our partner meeting last week I think um and we talked about doing a offsite and I just want to share that 1 thing that you brought to that there are two things that you always bring to that meeting that I think is super helpful. 1 is you bring experience in the phase that we are in um and there's ah, there's sort of a calm reassurance that like the pain and suffering that ah you know jdeep in particular is going through right now like how hard it is being alone like kind of so solo.
55:34.28
tylerking
Um.
55:40.20
Rick
Um, early days. You just like reassure that and say hey like this is just part of it. Um, the second thing you bring is like helping us get out of like the day-to-day. Um, and so one one thing um I just wanted to share that I I I'm really looking forward to is we we we started talking about our February offsite where we're going to um, start planning. Next year and we want to do and 1 of your stipulations for that was um was as long as we're not talking like we have space to actually like be creative and think versus like doing updates. Um, and so I'm ah I'm excited about this creating the space. Ah for an offsite where we actually just let ourselves. Really think about you know what we want leg up health to be and um the ways we can ah make it happen. So um, I'm terrified. Ah.
56:23.79
tylerking
Yeah, I'm excited to I thought it was it was interesting because we were talking about where to do it and you and Jd you were I think you especially were like you know we've done like I live in Utah we ski trips too obvious we've done that before let's not. We ultimately decided that probably is what we're gonna do because. Great thing about skiing is 70% of the time you're sitting on a chair lift with nothing to do I can't imagine a better situation to just like daydream with people. Yeah.
56:47.87
Rick
Yep, that's great conversation. Especially if it's a powder day. So yeah, planning a leg up health offsite and I just need to get a muscle up the courage to ask my wife if I can do it.
57:05.31
tylerking
Ah, well good luck godspeed. Let me know if I can help it's your birthday now's the day.
57:09.70
Rick
It takes. Yeah, yeah, this is the maybe this is the day um drop the bomb. But anyway yeah, it's good. It's good to catch up with you. Um, all right see ya.
57:17.96
tylerking
Yeah, you too I'll talk you later. But.