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0:00:00 - Cal
Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, episode 125.
0:00:06 - Jeremia
First is keep things simple as possible, because if you get things too complicated, it's not going to be sustainable.
0:00:15 - Cal
You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, Cal Hardage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenitive Grazing course to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg. Slash grazing. It's N-O-B-L-E dot org. Forward slash grazing On today's show. We have Jeremiah Markway of Markway Ranch On today's show. We have Jeremiah Markway of Markway Ranch On the show. We talk about his story with Corriente cows raising Corriente calves, raising crossbred calves out of those Corriente cows. We talk about her sheep going back to the Hopping Brothers here in Oklahoma and we talk about custom grazing, with just a little bit about grazing horses thrown in there. It's a great episode For the bonus segment for Grazing Grass Insiders.
We talk about Jeremiah's transition from an off-the-farm job to an on-the-farm job. Before we talk to Jeremiah, 10 seconds about my farm and a little bit later in today's conversation we talk about sometimes, when you're on this regenerative journey can't be a purist because there are some tools out there that maybe are not always the best or what you want to do in the end, but you have to use them to get there and, as I've mentioned on the past few episodes, I've been mowing a few pastures that have sericea lespedeza that's gotten out of hand because of poor management, so I'm using that tool to try and get those pastures in a better condition. Going forward, as much as I don't like it, sometimes we have to use those tools that are available to us to get to where we want. For 10 seconds about the podcast. First let's read a review. Oh yes, low input, profitable grass farming ideas.
This podcast is a great addition to your weekly listens. If you're raising animals with grass as your centerpiece, the host does a great addition to your weekly listens if you're raising animals with grass as your centerpiece. The host does a great job asking questions and focuses on profitable let me try that again on profitable grass-based production for many classes of livestock. Thank you, perkins Town Bowhunter, for the review review and, as we mentioned before, if you haven't left us a review, please do. It's really beneficial for us and we greatly appreciate five-star reviews and positive comments. Thank you, and let's go ahead and move on and talk to Jeremiah. Jeremiah, we welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today.
0:04:06 - Jeremia
Thanks, Cal. I appreciate you having me and looking forward to it.
0:04:11 - Cal
Wonderful To get started. Jeremiah, can you tell us about yourself and your operation?
0:04:17 - Jeremia
Yeah, so my family and I ranch in central Missouri. We are pretty much strictly a grazing operation in central Missouri. We are pretty much strictly a grazing operation. We've done all kinds of things over the years, from registered beef cows to commercial beef cows to grazing stalkers. Currently our enterprise mix is made up of hair sheep and Corriente cows that we breed to beef bulls. We still do custom grazing of some other people's cows, beef cows, and then we also raise some quarter horses too just a few, and we've done that for years. We focus on being low input or generative and all those things, and mostly try to keep it as simple as possible, and profitable is the main thing.
0:05:11 - Cal
Right, yes, I agree with that. Simple I'm not the brightest out there and profitable, so I can do this tomorrow. So, yeah, so you've got a few things going there, but you also mentioned you've done a ton of other things getting to this point, and often what I ask on the grazing grass is what got you interested into regenerative practices?
0:05:37 - Jeremia
Okay, my grandpa was a farmer and had done a little bit of everything too. He was pretty diversified. He milked cows and beef cows, they had raised hogs, turkeys laying hens, I mean, you name it. They did everything, whatever it took to survive. Oh yeah, and because of that, uh, I think I just got really interested in all avenues of agriculture, sometimes, sometimes to my detriment, because it can be a deal where I like to chase, go down different rabbit holes. But dad got interested for some reason, and I don't really know why. But back in rotational grazing, back when I was like 10 years old and he started putting in all kinds of electric fences on the places.
Back before, it was cool to be doing that sort of thing and for some reason that just really struck a chord with me.
I loved moving the cows around, I loved seeing how the grass responded, and so I just really chased that and took it to another level as far as making a living with it. I got a degree in agronomy from the University of Missouri. Making a living with it. I got a degree in agronomy from the University of Missouri, and most people that were going into that sort of thing they were doing it because they were wanting to be going to crop production, but I was one of the few that I was just interested in grass and forage production, so with the intent of grazing livestock. So that's where my journey started, and I've done a few other things along the way. I worked as an adult ag teacher for gosh 12 years or something like that, worked for the Missouri Department of Natural Resources for a couple years, and I managed two research farms at Lincoln University in Jefferson City for about eight years. All that while I was also ranching on the side, but back in 2020, I left that and went full-time ranching, and so it's been a good deal Been blessed.
0:07:40 - Cal
Just a little bit on Lincoln University. Lincoln University is the reason I have hair sheep. Really, I went up to a small ruminants conference there that Greg Judy was coming to and I want to say that was 2011,. Right through there sometime and I've told this on the podcast before or I believe I have I was the only person there out of all the producers that only had meat goats. Everyone else either had hair sheep or hair sheep and meat goats. Everyone there said you've got to get hair sheep. It's going to surprise you. You've got to get hair sheep. So I came home, spent a year convincing my dad hey, let's try this. And then maybe two years, see my dad hey, let's try this.
And then maybe two years because it was 2015 before we found a flock to buy and we'd actually been looking for a big enough flock for a couple years to buy it. So it took me a couple years to convince dad that, hey, we ought to try this, and a couple years to buy a big enough flock because I would find on craigslist and stuff, five, three use and I wanted 30 to 50 and finding them was a little bit tougher at the time. Oh, that's interesting.
0:08:51 - Jeremia
that's interesting also your story about getting them and what you went through with that also. I'm similar, in a similar situation. I got them in 2011, the fall of 2011, oh yeah, and I'd been debating on getting them for four or five years before that because I had some friends that had them and I'd love to go out there and watch their sheep and they just intrigued me, just like the grazing did. And finally one day I just I talked to my dad about it and brother-in-law and stuff. We ranch together and there was some hesitancy in all of us, but finally, one day I'm just like I'm just going to do it. And, uh, I was fortunate enough that a friend directed me to some people down in your country, I think, or close closer that way. Anyhow, joe and Hoss Hopping uh, good friends of mine down there around Tulsa, um, and anyhow, I got the, got our start from them and have kept their sheep going and it's been. The only thing I wish I would have done is I'd done it sooner. So they've been good.
0:09:53 - Cal
I agree on the hair sheep. I wish I would have done it sooner. I had goats for a number of years ahead of that and I love goats, I love their personality, but they're just a little bit more work yeah and I ended up selling all my goats and then, I guess a year ago, I bought another handful because I didn't have enough headaches.
0:10:14 - Jeremia
So I thought get some more goats we've talked about getting them, but I haven't made that plunge yet. So we've had. We had them when I was younger, growing up, and yeah, you're right, for us at least they were a little bit more of a challenge at the time. So one of these days we'll get them again. Oh no.
0:10:33 - Cal
Let's jump back. You said your dad started putting up electric fences when you were about 10. I know when I was exposed to the Stockman Grass Farmer. When I was exposed to the Stockman Grass Farmer and I want to say it was the late 80s when I was first exposed to it I looked around. I couldn't find anyone doing anything with electric fences and we started doing some. But we had all kinds of problems and later on we didn't ground the system good. We were buying too small of energizers and whole host of issues. Did those electric fences work? Good, y'all have them in place.
0:11:10 - Jeremia
And then that just kind of established that this is the way you're doing cattle yeah, I mean, that's how we got started too, the I remember getting the stockman grass farmer and sitting there reading it from cover to cover over lunchtime, you know, when I was younger like that and there wasn't a whole lot of knowledge around either at that time around our area. But we did have a good NRCS. I guess she would have been a district conservationist that helped us out a little bit there. And then the guy that we bought some supplies from originally was about an hour north of us and he gave us some good tips as far as installing it and whatnot. So but a lot of it was trial and error too. You're a guinea pig and when you're on the edge like that, doing that first and around the neighborhood and there's lots of people make fun of you and wonder about your sanity and that sort of thing. But I don't know.
Yeah, they still do. Yeah, that just never really bothered us. Obviously, we have sheep and korean cows, so we're not too worried about what people think about us.
0:12:13 - Cal
Yeah, right, right, yeah. Well, I just think that's an interesting exposure from way back for you. When you went through college, Anthony, did you come back to the home farm while you did some outside jobs too, or were you away from the farm completely for a while?
0:12:33 - Jeremia
No, I've lived all around here close to the home farm pretty much my whole life and, just like I said, just did that on the side. That's all I've ever wanted to do, and do it full time, and probably, honestly, I could have done it sooner. But there's that uncertainty that comes with leaving a job. You get a regular paycheck and stuff like that, and so I've always been involved with it and have never really left.
0:12:59 - Cal
So after you go to college, come home, did you all make any drastic changes? Or were you just reinforced with hey, we're doing what we should be doing, and you continued with that?
0:13:12 - Jeremia
No, I think that story of my life, cal, when it comes to grazing and ranching and stuff, is that I'm always trying something different and trying to make it better, and so what we think is right, oh yeah, one year we may find out a few years down the road that we need to make some adjustments or whatever, that what we were doing is not working as well as this other method or this other way of doing things. So it's been a constant adjustment and still is to this day. I feel like if I ever get to the point where I'm not changing things and questioning what I'm doing, then I'm probably getting stale and I just I like to learn and keep trying to push it to, just to be better at everything. So it's a constant process.
0:14:00 - Cal
You mentioned a while ago Corriente cows. I'm sure your dad wasn't running Corriente cows and you had what brought you to Corriente Cows. I'm sure your dad wasn't running Corriente Cows and you had. What brought you to Corriente Cows, what got them on your radar and caused you to introduce them? Into your operation.
0:14:16 - Jeremia
Yeah, we used to, like I said, run commercial cows and then we got into the registered Angus deal and they were good cows but we ended up selling those. I can't even remember when now off the top of my head, but we've always team roped. Dad's dad was. His main love was horses and he's actually retiring here in two weeks. He's been a veterinarian for 53 years and he had horses his whole life and that sort of thing. So so we team roped and we just kept some of those heifers one year. I don't remember why, but we bred those heifers, the Scoriante heifers that we had, and we got to figuring out that they made really good mama cows. They last a long time, their udders are good, their fertility is incredible, and so we started dabbling with that. I think like 25 years ago or something like that, oh yes.
Yeah, and for us it just seems like they fit so well in our operation that we've never really wanted to go back to beef cows, but they've been good to us.
0:15:16 - Cal
Are you typically using solid colored ones, or are you using some paints?
0:15:22 - Jeremia
Our herd now is pretty much solid black, red and some browns. We started out, we started with everything and we had some old friends of ours that roped, that had Coriandes forever, and they said, well, you'll never breed the spots off of them. But that turned out not to be true. We kept breeding the solid colored bulls and we, by selecting the heifers that were solid then, we were able to. It's rare that we have a painted up calf now yeah, and with the corrientes I started buying a few.
0:15:55 - Cal
Corrientes been running on my, I don't know three years now, but I've just bought a few, and most of mine are paints because they're cheaper than solids. I figure I will breed it off of them. But I also love the genetics behind the color of them. So that's just a side quest for me. But one thing I've got to ask you about that I buy some of these open Corriente heifers and I don't know their age because I'm not from a roping background, I'm not from a rodeo background, I'm just I see them out there and I see and I'm part of some groups and I know fresh ones are have never been roped. Is my understanding. Then, if they've started, they've been roped a little bit Roped out is they're not good for roping anymore. But how old a heifer is that at that point?
0:16:48 - Jeremia
It can depend on how hard they're used. Some of these heifers, if they're taken to jackpots and stuff and they're really roped hard and abused they will, they can get roped out pretty fast. So that could even be the same summer that they started roping them. Now other people that might buy them and take care of them, they might not get roped out until they're like two years old, at the end of their two-year-old year. So typically we start roping ours when they're a year old and we'll still rope them pretty much till they're two-year-olds.
0:17:20 - Cal
Oh okay, Do you wait to breed them till after you're finished roping them?
0:17:25 - Jeremia
Yeah, most of the time. Sometimes we'll run a Corriente bull in there with them in their yearlings and some years you'll have a good breed up on those heifers some years not no-transcript and that way we're able to keep generating Corriente heifers for our herd, for our replacement, and then their third breeding season on they will be bred to beef bulls at that point and then we'll, yeah, and so those steers will sell in the regular livestock auctions. But the heifers, those half-blood heifers, there's a really good demand for them, for mama cows, for people, so they, we usually sell those right off the place oh yeah.
0:18:22 - Cal
So your first calf on those coriente heifers could be as early as two and two and a half, but it's probably going to be closer to three years old on right, yeah, most time.
0:18:33 - Jeremia
Yeah, we just found that it's a little bit easier that way on them.
0:18:37 - Cal
So since we're roping them and stuff, oh yeah, I found with the few I purchased it seems like I have better luck getting them bred when they're just a little bit older. I've got a set with a bull right now that I thought might breed last year in Kev but they just wouldn't breed for me and I thought they were close to size and you know, I knew they were on the small, small end but thinking they'll breed now without a problem. But it just makes me think for those corientes we're probably looking at a three-year-old to kev them out, just yeah at their, their growth rate.
0:19:15 - Jeremia
Yeah, and the nice thing about them too is like I'm thinking of one half-blood cow we have out there. We have a few half-blood cows that we do keep, but I think she's 19 and had a this spring and, um, she's had a calf every year since she was two, and we've got several korean cows that are 15 to 18 years old, so they just last forever, but uh, they can anyhow.
0:19:41 - Cal
I mean right, it's yeah, with your uh Corrientes. You're breeding them the first two years to a Corriente bull. I'm assuming you're producing more steers or bulls than you would rope. Is there a good market for roping calves?
0:19:59 - Jeremia
Yeah, I call those the beef market as far as their value. But yeah, we sell all of the bull calves or steer calves to other ropers and we've never had any trouble ever getting rid of them. They don't bring as much as what these beef calves are bringing right now, but it'll it's still relative to it right, because you've got a lower cost cow in there right and their inner is all when they get done roping those coriante steers.
When they get roped out there, there's no place else to go with them other than the feedlot and a lot of people don't like to feed those type of cattle, oh yeah.
0:20:37 - Cal
With the steers and you're raising them for roping. Is there any kind of special management? You do so that their horns develop good.
0:20:44 - Jeremia
Not really. We just make sure they have good nutrition, just like anything we do with our sheep or other cattle or anything. You just try to take care of them and we don't pamper them or anything like that, but we just make sure that they have what they need to keep growing and then age takes care of it. We usually calve those Corrientes around in April. So you know, the guys that are buying them want to buy those calves as prospects or ready to rope in March. Basically they don't want to overwinter them. But then when spring starts rolling around they start thinking about roping and stuff and they want to get your cow lined up. Calve those cows a little bit later, because if you wait and calve them in May and June, they're not ready to rope till May or June that following year and a lot of people they're wanting to rope before then.
So you kiss your market a little bit. Yeah, I assume it's exactly right.
0:21:49 - Cal
Yeah, with your bull calves on your.
0:21:57 - Jeremia
Corrientes, at what age are you castrating them? It depends. Usually, if we cut them, they'll be, oh, in December or January or something like that. But sometimes we don't even cut them and we just sell them as bulls to the guys.
0:22:10 - Cal
They can cut them if they want to. I've heard people say you need to leave them intact for horn growth for longer than what you normally would for a regular beef calf.
0:22:22 - Jeremia
Yeah.
0:22:24 - Cal
So you do a couple years of breeding them, coriante bull, and then you go with a beef bull on them. What's your preferred?
0:22:34 - Jeremia
cross with your beef bulls. Well, we've used gosh pretty much everything you can think of out of this own. In most situations I would normally say we've got along the best with Charolais bulls because when we had those painted up cattle, the diluter gene and stuff would clean them up and make a light set of calves to sell. That was matched pretty much. We had some really good luck with a black limousine bull as far as putting muscling on, but we've been using Angus bulls, some thick type bulls, angus type bulls, the last few years, mostly because of that replacement female market, and if you put the right Angus bull on there it's really muscled up. You get some really nice bull calves too. So that's where we're at with it right now.
0:23:23 - Cal
Yeah, and then you're selling a lot of those for replacements. Are you also keeping those, keeping a certain percentage in your own herd?
0:23:35 - Jeremia
No, the half-bloods. It's pretty rare that we keep one. It just might keep one around to show somebody this is what they turn into or something like that. But no, just for simplicity's sake. We usually just keep the Corrientes straight as far as the mama cows and let somebody else buy the half-bloods and then they can put beef bulls on them. And those three-quarter blood calves are pretty nice calves. They sell pretty good right up there with a lot of the other cattle.
0:24:02 - Cal
I completely concur. I've got a couple of half-blood Corriente cows and their calves which are going to be three-quarter. Whatever beef breed it is, you can't tell them from my straight beef calves.
0:24:16 - Jeremia
They make nice, they're just a match set. I think personally, I think every cow in the country ought to have a Finch of Corriente in there as far as cleaning their udders up and fertility and the heat tolerance that they add to it. I know a lot of people would debate me on that, so that's okay. That's just my opinion.
0:24:34 - Cal
So with those Corrientes we're working with smaller cattle. We just purchased some Angus cows, found a deal we liked on them, sent them through our scales. The biggest cow topped out at 1,600 pounds, which is a slight problem because we're trying to on dad's place and these cows are is a slight problem because we're trying to on dad's place and these cows are on dad's place.
We're trying to run about 1100 pound cow and my herd's much smaller because I'm running a lot more corientes than south post. So how big are those half blood cows coming out?
0:25:07 - Jeremia
those half floods are. They typically mature at 900 to 1,000 pounds, maybe 1,050, but they're not that much bigger than our quarries. Our quarries weigh around 800 pounds when they're mature, so eight to maybe 850. Depends on when you weigh them, but anyhow, yeah, the half-bloods, they're about 100 to 200 pounds heavier than that.
0:25:29 - Cal
That's about it, oh yeah, yeah, okay, now I've got a really tough question that causes all kinds of controversy on Facebook groups.
0:25:40 - Jeremia
Oh boy.
0:25:41 - Cal
Yes, so this is a tough one, so I hope you're ready. So someone will post a picture of some heifers or calves for sale and they'll be like. Corriente heifers for sale and then the comments blow up that they're longhorns, they're not Corriente or they're crossbred. How do you tell them apart?
0:26:02 - Jeremia
You can't always, but I mean in general I would say that just the longhorns have a little bit more horn to them a little longer horn, a little faster growing horn, and the longhorn breed in general has just been I don't want to say tampered with, but it's been, you know, messed with a little bit more as far as people breeding for color or horns or configuration and length, breeding for color or horns or configuration and length, and so the longhorn cross cattle or longhorns tend to be a little bit framey than our Corriente cattle. So there's no guarantee though.
0:26:39 - Cal
And I agree with both of those things you said. That's what I'm looking for when I'm seeing something and the argument's ensuing how long is that horn? I bought some horn heifersers well, just a small trailer load of them and they all had longhorns. They're all longhorn cross in there because their horns are so much longer than what I typically see with a corriente heifer and then, I was talking to someone the other day and I said the longhorn is going to be a little frame year than a.
0:27:08 - Jeremia
Corriente they just got a little bit more size there yeah, and that's why typically, they rope, uh, corrientes more than longhorns. You mean they. Some people will say that, well, they do that because the Corrientes are smarter than the longhorns. Some people say, no, they do. They, the longhorns don't make as good ropers because they're smarter than the Corrientes. Whatever, I don't know about any of that, you know, whatever.
0:27:35 - Cal
I know in some of those face groups, longhorns versus Corrientes, that's a hot topic.
0:27:42 - Jeremia
Yeah, those Facebook groups. I'm a member of many different ones, but I don't know. Every time I seem to post something on there, I regret doing it because it ends up like going off a different direction or people getting in an argument. So I'm like I don't think I need to do that.
0:28:02 - Cal
I agree, and this may come out as a plug, but not really trying to plug it, that's one thing. So we've got a group called the Grazing Grass Community on there, and that's one thing I'm trying to keep from happening, because it seems like every discussion in any group I'm part of ends up into some disagreement about something. That's not the point of the post. So right now I think the Grazing grass community is doing a great job staying away from that. But the more people you get into it, the more likely it's going to happen. But yeah, I totally get that and, to be honest, I read a lot of those, so it does attract my attention. But I don't want that in a discussion where I post, where I want some quality information Right, where I pose, where I want some quality information Right, I understand. Now let's just talk before we get back to your sheep, just a little bit more on your cattle, let's talk about your management of your cattle.
You mentioned earlier the Corriente heifers, or first heifers, are calving in April, and it sounded like maybe your older cows are calving a little bit later. Did I understand?
0:29:14 - Jeremia
They're still April and May pretty much.
Yeah, so part of that Cal is that on those half-blood calves, we really like to sell those half-blood steers in that time frame the following spring not really spring spring, winter time I guess you'd say going into spring whenever those guys are really looking for grass cattle and hitting grass, catching grass fever, and you've got a. They're looking for a little 450 to 550 pound calf and those calves work pretty well for marketing at that time frame and so that's why we calve them there when we do, and with our grass I mean it could be better to go more may and june, but with our fescue predominantly fescue base and stuff, it still works pretty good to calve that time of year oh, yeah, yeah we've tried calving them in the fall and stuff and I don't know it.
just it doesn't work very well for us, it doesn't seem like so.
0:30:15 - Cal
You're not too far north of me, but you're a little bit north of me and then east of me, and any time, you know, winter's just going to be a little worse for you than it is. You go even south, it's even better for them.
0:30:28 - Jeremia
Right, right for you than it is to go even south. It's even better for them, right, right. And that's one of the things we found about the koreanis is they don't put on back fat like a beef cow does like an angus or something. And so we found that you need to have them in pretty good shape going into winter, especially if you're going to carry a calf on them through winter time, because if you go into winter with them being in less than optimal condition they can, and you get into a patch of really bad weather, cold weather, extended period they can, they can really drop condition pretty fast.
0:31:00 - Cal
So that's pretty important in my limited experience, I've seen them really get pulled down with a calf on them and to be honest, I'm trying to poor boy them through winter because to keep those costs as low as possible, sure yeah.
0:31:16 - Jeremia
Yeah.
0:31:18 - Cal
Let's go ahead, and go ahead and move back to sheep. So, with your sheep, you got those in 2011. Why did you decide to get sheep?
0:31:29 - Jeremia
I just saw that as much as I like grazing and like I said my friends that had them that I'd go look at their sheep and they told me how good they were as far as making money and how they just fit the grass cycle. I guess you'd say so much with our cool season forage base and stuff. I don't know, it's just, I just wanted to try it out and I thought they would be a really good fit for us. So that's what we did and it's like I said, it's been great.
0:31:58 - Cal
What was the thing that surprised you most about them once you had sheep?
0:32:03 - Jeremia
I think it's just how much. They're just to me, the perfect grazing animal. I mean, you got an animal that we lamb around May, starting around May 1st, and then you will have babies on her for 90 days or something, maybe longer if you leave them on. But you have a dry animal then for fall and winter that you can. You know you're not going to abuse her or anything, but her nutritional requirements are so much lower, whereas a cow she's nursing a calf for most of the year and trying to breed back. And you're breeding a cow when she's nursing a calf and you're breeding a ewe whenever she's dry, so it doesn't have that lactation demand. And so to me they're just. They just fit so well with grazing managed grazing system. I think they're great.
0:32:55 - Cal
When you wean those lambs. When are you marketing them as soon as you wean them, or, and I'm assuming, you're weaning at about three months?
0:33:04 - Jeremia
We, we have been weaning at about three months for about as long as I can remember. This year we might do something a little bit differently due to circumstances, but anyhow, no, typically we wean those lambs and put them on a different place and we'll graze them through the fall and then we will sell them in December or January when the market's a lot better.
Now that's on our market lambs, Our replacement ewe lambs that we sell. We do typically sell those at 90 days off the farm and whoever wants those, we typically keep a list and people that want those ewe lambs, and then we'll also keep some rams back for ourselves to breed and also sell some breeding ram lambs that we use or that they can use that fall.
0:33:53 - Cal
Oh yeah, yeah, Sounds good. Do you run your sheep with your cattle?
0:33:57 - Jeremia
With them but not with them. So we do more of a leader follower type deal with our sheep. Our sheep are. Well. The way we figure it for us is that the sheep are the higher value animal and so we lead with the sheep and we'll be in a paddock. We do daily moves. We'll be in a paddock for a day and they get to graze whatever they want as far as what grass they want, the forbs, clover and broadleafs and stuff like that and then I'll come in with generally with custom grazing, fall calving, dry cows that we get from different people and I will clean up that pasture with them, since they have a lower nutrient requirement. You know at that time that we have them and it works really well.
Conditions of grass for the sheep the next time around it's meeting the cow's needs. And one year when we first got started with the sheep I think it was maybe two years into it or whatever I thought, well, we're just going to go all sheep on this place where I live and we got rid of the cows off of the system that year and I ended up with wormy sheep and waist-high rank fescue by the end of 90 days, and so I knew that wasn't going to work and we put cattle back in the system. So I feel like the cattle are a vital part of the sheep operation. It's just that I don't want to own that many cows year round, so we can get into that a little bit more later. But that's one of the sweet things I think about the custom grazing deal.
0:35:30 - Cal
We'll come back to that when we transition to our overgrazing section. With your ram lambs. You're keeping your own rams and you're also selling a few off. Are you banding them while they're younger or are you selling your market lambs as rams?
0:35:48 - Jeremia
We sell our market lambs as rams also oh okay.
So we just wean everything and then it's completely gone to a different farm where I don't have to worry about that. Now that's what we've done. Like I said, what we've been doing in the past. This year we're probably going to do something a little bit different.
We've been grazing cover crops for the last three years in the wintertime and I've found some more farmers to work with that are willing to let us graze our cover crops, and I think what we're going to do this year is we are going to ban those ram lambs that we don't want to keep as breeders and keep those on the ewes and take them to cover crops as well. So it's just that rye and stuff is such good feed they do so well on it that we think that's going to work out Again. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong when we try these new things, but the winter grazing of the yew has been working out real well on the cover crops and so if we can graze those lambs right along with them, we think it'll be a lot nicer to manage one bunch than have a bunch of lambs here and a bunch of ewes up there.
0:36:56 - Cal
Oh yeah, and then you're not worrying about ram lambs getting to your ewes as bad. Right, we're planning on castrating our ram lambs this year, mainly from a management standpoint, because just keeping them separated we've actually done a lot of fencing to improve that some permanent paddocks, because those ram lambs, oh man one gets out, they just mess up lambing season yeah, absolutely yeah.
0:37:24 - Jeremia
Yeah, we're gonna have to be pretty diligent about making sure everything gets banded that we, if we do, leave them on the use like you're talking about, because I've heard horror stories from people that talk about having 150 or 250 use.
0:37:36 - Cal
You know there was only one ram lamb and they all got bread, so it's crazy what they can do yes, well, I had a ram lamb out and I had about 50 of my ewes lamb in February or March and then the rest of them in May when they were supposed to.
0:37:53 - Jeremia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they can do a lot in a little bit of time.
0:37:59 - Cal
One other species you'd mentioned was horses, and are you still? Do you graze very many horses and are you managing them in a regenerative fashion?
0:38:12 - Jeremia
Not as much. So they're. Most of the horses are on another place and they're not really grazed the way that the sheep and cattle and stuff are. And I will say they can be here at the house now. My wife has her horses here and I have one, my daughter and stuff and I hate to see a horse park out an area you can grab it to the ground and stuff.
So the condition was is that if they came over here to the house, I'm such a stickler on my grass and taking care of it that they would be rotated around and so we're using polywire and rotating them around and moving them every two or three days and they can. I mean, if they're grazed like that, in that manner, they can be a really good grazing animal. You know, it's just like anything they'll overgraze, same as a cow or sheep will if they get the opportunity. So I'm actually looking forward to seeing what I can do with them and targeting some areas that maybe some riparian areas in the summertime that I don't really want the cows in stomping up and standing in the creek, but those horses won't do that so grazing some areas like that, you're doing different things.
0:39:19 - Cal
Oh very good. You mentioned using electric fence with them. Are you using poly braid?
0:39:23 - Jeremia
you're using poly tape or poly braid is all I use. Poly braid yeah, just poly braid yeah, just regular. Same stuff I use for the cattle whenever I'm dividing a paddock up in half or something like that, so they respect it pretty well.
0:39:39 - Cal
And that makes more sense to me than going out and having a separate product just for horses and do something with them.
0:39:48 - Jeremia
Yeah, yeah, just for horses to do something with them. Yeah, yeah, I like it because I can still run my sheep in there through that paddock. If I need to eat the broadleaves and stuff that the horses don't want, you can flash the sheep through there and it seems to be working real well.
0:40:03 - Cal
Oh yeah, One last question before we go ahead and go to the overgrazing section. I didn't ask this earlier and I'm not even sure why I didn't, but you mentioned polybraid through there and bringing sheep in. How many polybraid lines are you running for your cattle, for your sheep, for your horses?
0:40:22 - Jeremia
Okay, so on the place, I'll just use the place that I'm living at, because every place is a little bit different. It's got several places and we have some rental places that we operate on and stuff, so everyone's a little different. But on this place I actually have it divided up into about 40 paddocks and it has three and four strands of high tensile electric.
Oh yes, the reason I went to that was when I was going working a full-time job and I was putting up polywire every day, taking it down. You'd have to do that before work and after work and whatever. I got tired of building the same fence five and six times a year and it was just a labor deal that I thought you just need to put the money into the fence. And now I give up some flexibility and different things like that with that system. But there's some things I gain with that as well.
So with the sheep, basically I don't use poly wire with them, I just rotate them through that series of paddocks and stuff and then maybe, maybe I'm in there a day and then in the growing season and then more of the dormant season, I might be every two days or something in a paddock and still rotating the cows. They're in those paddocks for a day or two, depending on how many head I have from the clients. And I do use polywire to break those paddocks up into two or three different pieces to get higher impact, better utilization on the grass. So it just depends, but I just use one poly wire on that. Oh, yeah, yeah, and I like it. I mean, there's times I think that I do my fencing differently and there's times I do change things and whatnot. But I don't know if the perfect way to do things. I think it's a little bit different for everybody what fits their needs.
0:42:10 - Cal
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. And that's one reason sharing these stories maybe something I'll speak to someone. They're like oh, that's what I should do. Even if it's been said a hundred times, I know for me I need to hear it about a hundred times before.
0:42:25 - Jeremia
Yeah, I do too. Usually I have to do it about a hundred times before it dawns on me.
0:42:28 - Cal
I do too Usually I have to do it about a hundred times before it dawns on me. Yeah, that too. Yeah, well, jeremiah, I'm going to. It's time for us to transition to our overgrazing section, where we take a little bit deeper dive into something you're doing on your operation. And one thing we talked about and you mentioned just a little bit was custom grazing. So we had discussed custom grazing for management and you'd mentioned earlier grazing sheep ahead of some fall calving custom cows. Let's talk about your custom grazing operation and what you're trying to do with that.
0:43:05 - Jeremia
Okay, sure. So the reason I like the custom grazing and what we're trying to do with it is it offers me so much. Well, there's a number of things, but one thing it offers me so much flexibility in how I manage my grass. If, like I said earlier, if I didn't have the cows in that system, I'd have a bunch of rank fescue that the sheep wouldn't perform well on and I'd have parasite problems. Now there's a whole debate out there. Some people say that the cows vacuum up to parasite the sheep, parasites and stuff. I'm not as much of a believer in that, because if you listen to the experts that say the larva only travel up about four inches on the plants well, I'm not grazing that short anyhow. So to me it's more of a deal. I'm using those cows to condition that grass to be higher nutritional content whenever those sheep come back around. I'm getting paid to do that. So I'm having those May, june, july and August, or let's say May, june, july and part of August. They'll go home sometime in August. There it might be the first, it might be the 15th, it just depends on the year. So I'm getting paid to use someone else's cows as a tool to help me manage my grass for my sheep and I like that flexibility from a drought standpoint too.
Last year we were extremely dry. I think we had like 18 inches of rain total and we're in like a 40, roughly 40 inch rainfall area. So we were well below half and I knew going into the beginning of April that we were dry. We only had a tenth of an inch the month of April and I called my clients and said look, I can only take 60% of what you sent me last year and I may have to tell you to come get them in 30 days.
Ultimately we did graze them for 45 days, but what would have happened if I would have, instead of having those 150 or 200 cows that we took in custom grazing? What if I would have had 150 cows that I had to try to figure out a way to feed through that drought? So that custom grazing deal just really offers a lot of flexibility to me in how I manage everything. Think of our cow, our Coriandee cows, as what we can carry through the wintertime, grazing most of the wintertime with them, and then we just try to fluctuate our I mean try to manage our excess grass growth in the summertime with those custom cows. Basically.
0:45:33 - Cal
Oh yeah, Now for your custom cows. Are you telling your clients we're interested in fall calving cows so that you get dry cows?
0:45:45 - Jeremia
Yes, and the reason that is is those mamas with those babies, those newborn babies, especially with that three-strand electric or four-strand electric, those calves will get shocked and run through it and then they'll go hide and stuff, and when I'm moving them it's just too much trouble to have to deal with that, so I try to stay away from those cows. I had one of them, though, the other day, just yesterday no, it was a couple days ago, anyhow. My neighbor said that she had a set of twins and sure enough, I have one out there that's not supposed to calve until August supposedly. But she had a set of twins. I have to get her out of there, but no big deal. No big deal. But we really like the fall calving cows. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But my clients, or our clients that we work with, they're good to work with and people have asked me about that before. They say, well, I couldn't find anybody to graze. You know would have let me graze their cows, but I bet if you'd looked around a little bit you probably would, because it's a generality, no matter where you're at, people love their cows and always want more cows and most people like to bale hay. So between those two things, if they can send their cows somewhere or have more of them and they get to bale their hay on their place. It typically makes people happy and that works well with if you want to take those cows in.
0:47:08 - Cal
Yeah, and that's a huge selling point right there. Send them over here. I'll custom graze them. You can get your own hay wrapped up and, like you said, so many people love to bale hay and I say that not only pay someone to bale their hay, but they want to have all the equipment to bale hay and I'm not a fan of baling hay. I've done too much of it.
0:47:29 - Jeremia
Yeah, yeah. Well, like I said, grandpa was a dairy farmer growing up and we square baled everything and hauled it in and stuff. And I still like hauling square bales, just because that reminds me of when I was a kid. But as far as owning the equipment, we're pretty bare bones on that sort of thing. We have four wheeler like my ideal equipment's a four wheeler chainsaw and a drip torch. That's my big three I do like.
I do like to have access to a skid steer once in a while to clean up some stuff. It's really nice. But we have a tractor and a brush hog and that's about it and it doesn't get used very often. So it's hard to make it pencil to own your own hay and equipment unless you have an incredible amount of hay that you put up. That was one thing. I went through Jim Garish's Kick the hay habit school years ago and that was amazing to me when we worked through his worksheet what, how many bales of hay you actually had to put up to to make that pencil out, and so that kind of stuck with me.
0:48:36 - Cal
It doesn't surprise me at all. It doesn't surprise me at all. And we dairied and I know so often I would milk while Dad went to lay down a pasture so that when we got done milking the dew would be off or getting close to being off so we could start raking another pasture so we can get some baling done. Like I've mentioned on the podcast, it's the only time in my life I've been happy. I've got allergies and asthma. I didn't have to do as much of that. Now I could cut grass pretty good, but the rest of the work I got out of and my brother says I pushed it a little bit too much. That's a debate for another day. But we never had new equipment. We always had cheap, not cheap equipment, good used equipment.
And it's not good used equipment, it's good used equipment and it's not good used equipment. It's good used, so things would break. And I that's where I learned I do not like mechanic work, just changing out bearings on balers and I'm like I don't want to do it, I don't yeah, I'm not very good at it either no, I have now.
part of it may be just the way we did stuff. I remember as a teenager 16 had first truck and I needed to work on it and we we do stuff under the tree out here we I can remember the baler being in front of the dairy barn so we could work on it. We had to get it going so we could move it out of the way for the milk truck to show up, but I had to work on my pickup. For some reason I took it out to my grandpa's and I worked on it in his garage and he has these huge tool chests with all his tools organized and everything. And I remember for a fleeting thought, fleeting moment, I thought this isn't half bad, but it quickly escaped me.
0:50:25 - Jeremia
I understand.
0:50:28 - Cal
Well, Jeremiah, it sounds really interesting what you're doing with your custom grazing there. I like how you're pinpointing some cows that require lower requirements lower nutritional requirements and using them in a follower system. I think that's a great utilization of a certain class of animals to achieve your goal. With that, it's time for us to move to our famous four questions, sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and grazers everywhere At Ken Cove Farm Fence they believe there is true value within the community of grazers and land stewards.
The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant, Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres. Expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant. Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, Ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, From reels to tumbleweels, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite O'Briens, KiwiTech, Strainrite Jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit KenCovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fence for helpful how-to videos and new product releases. It's the same four questions we ask of all of our guests. And, Jeremiah, I don't know if you've studied, they're pretty tough questions.
0:52:08 - Jeremia
I hope I pass.
0:52:10 - Cal
Yeah, hopefully. So Let me get my red pen out.
0:52:13 - Jeremia
So we're ready.
0:52:16 - Cal
Our first question what is your favorite grazing grass-related book or resource?
0:52:22 - Jeremia
I have a few of those that I think are worth reading, and it's not just specifically about grazing grass but directly or indirectly, I guess you'd say. First one would be Stan Parsons' If you Want to Be a Cowboy, get a Job. That's a really good little book that's packed with information. Job that's a really good little book that's packed with information. Jim Howell's book for love of the land, for the love of land, is another really good one. And let's see, I like Alan Savory's holistic management handbook. I think that's good. I know the textbook is a little deep and maybe hard to read, but that handbook I think is really good. So those would probably be my top three, I think. On on the ranching side of things, allen, nation's knowledge rich ranching is another good one. And I jim garish's stuff's all good, I think, especially for someone in maybe your area or my area, east anybody in the fescue belt. I feel like he's got a better handle on grazing fescue and stuff than anybody else I've seen oh yeah, yeah, excellent resources there.
Stan parsons I've heard of it, but I haven't read that one, so that's one I definitely need to read I think someone stole mine off my bookshelf because I can't find it, so I may have to order another copy. It's good. It's worth your time. It's a quick read, but it's really good.
0:53:52 - Cal
I'll have to get it and read it, and I'm not the one who stole it. I was looking at my bookcase and I actually have a book on there that I'm like oops, that's dad's book, I better take that back. About the King Ranch, I know that I borrowed it and he said now make sure this comes back to me. And I just saw it the other day. I'm like, oh, I got to get that back to him. Our second question what is your favorite tool for the farm?
0:54:21 - Jeremia
I think that'd have to be my four-wheeler. I just use that every day consistently, whether it's carrying the fence post and the reels, or carrying my tool pouch, my fencing tool pouch, or carrying dog food, my stock dogs carrying what just I don't know. I used to not have one and I'm like how did I ever get along without one? So, and I like each your own. I like a four-wheeler better than a side by side. I just personal preference, but I can get around with it a little handier and stuff and a little lighter weight maybe and whatnot.
0:54:51 - Cal
So I like that. Yeah, very good. Thirdly, what would you tell someone just getting started?
0:55:04 - Jeremia
So I would say there's several things I think I wrote down here one that I wanted to remember. One is first is keep things simple as possible, because if you get things too complicated, it's not going to be sustainable, you're going to wear out, you're going to quit, you're going to get frustrated. So try to keep things as simple as possible and if you see yourself starting to venture away from that to where it's getting more complicated, then just be aware of that and try to come back. Try to be a good student of observation, and I think that's a huge thing that for some reason doesn't seem very common nowadays. I don't know why, but anyhow, just really try to be a good student of observation and see what's going on out there.
And another thing is don't be a purist, and what I mean by that is their generative deal has been great in getting people interested in agriculture and stuff has been great and getting people interested in agriculture and stuff. But sometimes I feel like people have an idea in their mind that's too rosy of a picture and like, for instance, they're not going to deworm something, or they're not going to spot spray brush in their fence line, or they're not going to use fertilizer. They're not going to whatever the case may be. There's a whole list of things. They're not going to feed hay, they're not going to whatever. I wouldn't rule out any of those things. Those are all tools and sometimes we mess up and it's not our animal's fault that we have to correct things due to our poor management or things like that. So I mean you can go the furthest route and say, well, I'm just going to let stuff die and whatever lives will be, that's what I'll have. But you might go broke doing it too. So just caution, people, about being a purist.
And then the last thing is just never stop learning. I mean we can always learn something. I don't care I've never been to a conference or something like that or heard a podcast where I didn't. I really don't think I can say I've never been to a conference or something like that or heard a podcast where I didn't. I really don't think I can say I've never learned something. You can always learn something from somebody else. And so keep an open mind and just keep learning. Don't ever stop that.
0:57:13 - Cal
Excellent advice there. On all of them. The very first one keep it simple. My wife will tell you. Sometimes I think I need to reinvent stuff and make things more complicated, so actually that's one I have to remind myself of. I'll be like well, if I had 14 reels, I could do this pathway to the water and I can have them do that. It doesn't have to be that complicated. I have to keep myself in check on that.
0:57:40 - Jeremia
Well, just because I said that, don't think that I haven't mastered, I have to keep myself in check on that. Well, just because I said I don't think that I haven't mastered, I have to continually think that too, but at least I try to be aware of it.
0:57:51 - Cal
That's all we can ask.
Be aware of it and try your best. But another great point you talked about was being a purist there. Sometimes we have to use some of those measures that aren't considered regenerative to help us along that path where we want to get to go where we want to go. It doesn't mean we're not working that direction. But we can't just stop all inputs to our animals and think they're going to thrive and make us money. We have to be conscious about what they're going to thrive and make us money. We have to be conscious about what we're doing and deliver. Sometimes we have to do those things.
0:58:26 - Jeremia
Right, and it doesn't mean you're a failure or anything less because of that. If you do, I mean that's just part of the learning process, being human and how it goes. That's just life.
0:58:38 - Cal
Well, for instance, right now I'm clipping some pastures. I do not like to mow anything because I think I don't want to use diesel. I don't want the time on the tractor, I don't. I'd love to do it without a tractor, but you know, I'm clipping some cerise, or cerisea lespedeza, because it's gotten too tall. I'm trying to set it back because I have too much of it in an area. So those are tools at our disposal that we can use if we need to get to where we want to be.
0:59:08 - Jeremia
Right, absolutely, I agree.
0:59:11 - Cal
And lastly, Jeremiah, where can others find out more about you?
0:59:15 - Jeremia
We have a webpage that my sister maintains or has created. It's called markwayranchcom and I am on Facebook. I rarely post, in fact I don't look on there very often, but it's just Jeremiah Markway. They could search that. We also have Markway Ranch on Facebook as well. And then one thing I might mention, if you don't mind, I guess plug in and you'll see some postings on Facebook.
We've been doing some sheep and soil health schools and we've started calling it Sheep University. But we've been doing those the last few years Ray Archuleta, myself, and now Hoss Hopping is doing them with us, and so there'll be some more of those coming up in the future. I think we have one scheduled for September 16th and 17th. But just a good school, two-day school where we talk about all things low-input sheep ranching, farming, whatever you want to call it grazing, soil health, ranching in general. It's just I love doing them. You meet so many people. We've had people from Canada to Florida, to the gosh I'm trying to think we had New York, oklahoma, just everywhere in between and it's. You meet neat people and like-minded people and it's just a good time and really good learning thing. So might just put a plug in for that, but there's information on markwayranchcom about that. They could look up if they're interested.
1:00:45 - Cal
And, jeremiah, I have to apologize. I meant to ask you about those schools earlier and forgot, so I'm glad you brought them up, because you do have more information on your website about those. Well, jeremiah, really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today yeah, thank you for the opportunity.
1:01:03 - Jeremia
It's been fun and good talking to you and everything and hopefully we'll have to. We'll have to catch back up here in the future.
1:01:10 - Cal
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