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Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.
Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.
I can't sleep at night if I don't run
my usual coaching sessions in a week.
It's that ingrained and I'm that much
of a firm believer it's the difference
maker. If you left tomorrow and that
culture was lost, how do you think that
team would cope without you? If they
weren't getting that, performance would
definitely take a hit. Give me a
percent. Definitely 50 to 60% down on
numbers. Wow, that's really high.
Did you used to be Crap at Sales?
Yes. You hesitated? I hadn't
had any coaching or...
proper sales leadership, so I was
doing a lot of things on my own.
I never coached. Never crossed my mind
at that time that coaching was even a
thing. I could manage
people, but I couldn't coach.
Is it not quicker just
to tell them the answer?
No. If we're giving that person the
answers continually, they're just not
going to learn. It's not going to stick.
Buyers are getting smarter all the
time.
selling is getting harder, if you're
not levelling up your sales reps,
they're actually going backwards.
Coaching has to be at the heart of the
sales team. I've managed people and
they've left the business because of my
intenseness and the way I've
led and the way I've managed.
No one tells you how to do that as a
leader. You've got to work it out for
yourself. I wrote the statement that
people don't buy from people they like,
they buy from people they trust. Don't
be afraid to show your teeth a little
bit and challenge the
status quo. Life is one.
big learning curve. We are still
learning, you know, that never ends.
We're probably not naming your
greatest achievement, which is...
Brett, welcome to the studio, welcome
to Newcastle, welcome to the podcast.
Very glad to be here, Mark. Thank
you first of all for inviting me.
Looking forward to it. Me too. I've
done a lot of prep and I think this is
going be a great episode. We always
kick off with a yes, no question.
Did you used to be Crap at
Sales? Yes. You hesitated?
I think everyone is at
the start, perhaps. Maybe.
Obviously you start out fresh,
lot to learn, learning on the job.
So I think when I first
started out, probably was.
When you think back to when you first
started out and what you know today,
how crap are we talking? I
think I had natural ability.
just, it wasn't refined. Like I said,
I hadn't had any coaching or proper
sales leadership. So I was
doing a lot of things on my own.
So crap in a way, but I had the
ability, I think, if I'm honest.
You had some natural... Instinct. Okay.
Yeah. And sales skills, I would say.
So that served me well, but wasn't
refined. Wasn't the finished article.
How did you actually end up
in sales in the first place?
Well, I went to university, got a
degree and luckily landed a job at a
marketing agency in my local where
I grew up in the city of Wakefield.
A marketing agency that specialised
in automotive marketing.
So it started out as an account manager
there to cut a long story short.
Naturally was sort of pulled. I pulled
myself into selling to motor groups
on my own accord really. was
hungry to win new business for the
agency. And back then it was Yellow
Pages, ringing around these motor
groups, trying to sell different digital
marketing services, which then led me
to hopping in a car and going around
the country to knock on doors pretty
much. So it was a very old school way
of getting into sales, if that makes
sense. And I was a young lad, really.
How young were you? Straight
out of uni, so 21, 22.
And what did you study
at uni? Media studies.
How did that lead to getting
an account manager role?
I would probably say it wasn't the most
natural of journeys from going media
studies to marketing. They say it's
who you know and actually a family
friend helped me to get the role. So
she was a family friend of my mum's.
She was very successful in the agency.
They needed someone young to come in
and start learning the trade,
being a junior account manager.
I just left uni so it fit and I'm very
thankful to that person today because
she really helped me get the job.
And that, I suppose that was the word
that was missing then, junior from the
account manager. Yeah, of
course. Sorry. That's okay.
And you're right. You know, my dad,
whenever I say it's who you know, he
always says it's who you
know, knows. Very true.
I think that's very true. But so we
started off as an account manager and
then you proactively started to
sell. Was that encouraged by it?
Well, yeah, I started account
managing first of all.
So when I grew into, into myself and
into the role over the, you know, first
12 months,
It was a very sales driven agency.
So the CEO then was very, you know,
encouraging of everybody in the
agency to try and win new business.
to, you know, create
competitions, many incentives.
I was so hungry for that. I was hungry
to earn money and prove myself as
well. And once I started to find,
identify and win new business, I just got
even more hungry for it. So I
just knew that was the path.
Sales was the path that I was
maybe born to be on, perhaps.
Some might say.
And I just went for it. from there,
transition from account managing to more
of a hunter winning new business. there
like a funny story or mistake that
you can now look back on and laugh? I
once drove all the way to, it wasn't
into my first job, but in the sort of
second job after where the next agency
I moved to, which was a rival,
incidentally, I once drove to Cornwall and
the meeting was cancelled
the minute I got there.
Seven hour journey. Yeah.
That was a howler, isn't it?
Yeah. Although not your fault. Not
my fault. And I made the most of it
because
cold door knocking on some of the
motor groups while I was down there.
Wasn't that many because it was in
Cornwall, but still, it was a bit of a
howler and seven hour journey back.
But yeah, that's probably the biggest
howler I can remember to
be fair. Yeah, fair enough.
So when you move from account manager,
you have your success as an account
manager and then you start in sales
and that all kind of seems to go quite
naturally. Were there any habits you
had to unlearn from the account manager
role? Maybe being too nice. Go on.
It's a different role, it?
Account managing and selling.
I'm a firm believer in sales. You've
got to show your teeth a little bit.
Maybe in account management, I think
in account management, you've probably
got to do it as well, but maybe not
as much. And you've got to do it in a
different way with customers.
New business is a bit different.
I teach my sales team Challenger Sale
now. think there's a bit of that in
there as well. So I learned to be, when
I was on the new business trail and
on the new business hunt, was very, I
think I was great with customers, but
I'm...
I feel like a new, I had the natural
ability to know when to challenge and
show my teeth a little bit. Um, but
I had to unlearn that from, you know,
managing customers and accounts
to then transitioning to sales.
So would say that was a
big one. that makes sense.
Completely. I would say, so I, I, I've
written on LinkedIn most days, like
five, six years. And one of the posts
that I remember where I got the most,
um, feedback and opinions. And, uh,
I disagree with all the people that
disagree with me by the way, but.
I wrote the statement that people don't
buy from people they like, they buy
from people they trust.
Absolutely. Would agree.
And it did, it split the room, split
the LinkedIn room, if you will, in
half. You know, I remember there was
one guy in particular that said like,
Mark, I've always liked your content,
but this is completely wrong.
It's all about relationships.
It's all about being liked.
And I just disagree. I think being liked
helps, I think salespeople struggle
because they have that need
to be liked and they don't.
So I've never put it as show your teeth,
but it'd be good to understand what
you mean by that without
making an assumption.
But I think it's all about trust and
you can't be trusted if you're not
honest and straightforward. You
tell me more what you mean by that.
Yeah, I think hopefully it doesn't
come across in the way that, you know,
showing your teeth would be
a nasty thing or anything.
I don't mean that. just feel, you
know, it's a phrase that I use quite
regularly with my sales team that
don't be afraid to show your teeth a
little bit and challenge.
Challenge the status quo, challenge
the customer, challenge the person in
front of you, but in the right way,
in the respectful way, because they'll
trust you more, just as you've said.
And I think a lot of sales people out
there, sales reps struggle
to do that actually.
I think it's a skill that's, you know,
that's hard to learn and one hard to
learn, secondly, hard to execute. So
I think it's vital, critical to be a
top, top salesperson. So do you
think it's because it's a skill and a
mindset? It's a mindset thing.
You know, how many people like to
challenge the status quo and feel
comfortable doing it? You know, I
was in a coaching call with one of my
sales reps a couple of days ago and
they said that they feel awkward asking
uncomfortable questions and
challenging the status quo.
Well, that shows that if maybe one
rep's feeling that, it's probably a good
chance that quite a lot of reps feel
awkward doing such things, showing the
teeth. So it's clearly not an easy
one, but I think it's one that's
critical. So I'd love to know more
about that coaching conversation.
I'll dive into that in a minute.
Um, I've read the Challenger Sale.
I feel like maybe like 10 years ago.
Yeah, me too. It'd be good. Just a
quick crash course for anyone that's not
read that book. Why out of all the
different methodologies, if you will,
have you chosen Challenger
and implemented that one?
I just feel it's very much, I personally
love that one the most because it's
close to how I believe it's the
closest how I believe sales should be.
executed if that makes sense. I just
love the challenger aspect of it, which
can help you find urgency
in a deal very quickly.
So, I mean, I've learned spin, things
like spin, but Challenger for me is
the one that really, I believe every
salesperson should go through because
they can really take control of the
conversation early, drive urgency
quicker. And ultimately throughout,
like you've already said, Mark, and
rightly said, the customer's just going
to keep trusting you more and more
and that's just going to build.
And eventually they're going to buy
from you. just feel like it, just
epitomises what a sale should look like.
Let's talk more about that coaching
conversation yesterday. But I tell
you what, rather than make about the
individual on your team, let's
do a little bit of practice.
I'd love to see what you would say
and do. I'm just going to imagine I'll
work for you for a second
and we're in a one to one.
So look, Brett, I know I should push
back and challenge there, but I feel
really uncomfortable doing
that. What would you say to me?
Empathise with that. But first of all,
what you've got to think about is.
you're there to solve the customer's
problem, problems, pains, challenges.
And to solve those, you have to ask
uncomfortable questions because we want
to get to the root of the problem.
The more we get to the root of the
problem, the better we
can solve that problem.
So how do you feel like you could ask,
well, what kind of questions do you
feel like you could ask, first of all,
to find the root of that problem that
could really help uncover more of the
situation that they're going through?
Yeah. So let's pause it there. So I
really like that first of all, you've
got into discovery mode on
me. Why do you feel that way?
And then actually you've said to me,
what do you feel the other option?
You've not told me what to do. Is there
a reason you've not told me what to
do? Because people learn, like at
school, people, when teachers used to ask
you a question at school, they
wouldn't give you the answer until they
absolutely had to. I feel that's
how sales coaching should be.
You should try and...
push the salesperson in front of you
to give you the answer before you have
to. That way they'll learn quicker.
it not quicker just to tell them the
answer? No. Because we want salespeople
or anyone that we're teaching, it
doesn't have to be sales, does it?
We want them to give us the answer.
That's the way they'll learn. If
we're giving that person the answers
continually, they're just not going
to learn. It's not going to stick.
And that's a firm belief of
mine. So I try to try and push.
the salesperson in the right
direction to give me the answer.
if I absolutely have to give him the
right answer, will, but I try many
times and put the onus on the
rep first to give me the answer.
That way, I believe
they'll learn much quicker.
So I'm in complete agreement. I always
think back to one individual that I
managed about five years ago, we were
in a one-to-one and it got to the
point where they just said, for God's
sake, can you just give me the answer?
Like they obviously just got frustrated.
And it was that moment, I like, I'm
not going to just give you the answer.
I appreciate you haven't got the
answer. Let's figure it out together.
Have you ever seen the film Inception?
I don't think I have, to be honest.
I've heard that it's good. I don't
think I've watched it anyway.
So I love that film. It stars Leonardo
DiCaprio, but the whole premise
exactly. had a great couple of years
where he did that in like Shutter
Island as well and stuff. But the
premise of that movie, this is not a
spoiler, is if you can plant the idea
in someone's head, they're more likely
to go with it than if
you give them the idea.
And I think that's a perfect film that
kind of epitomises great coaching.
Yeah, absolutely. Making them
feel like the idea is theirs.
And that's what the film's all
about. You should watch it.
It's about making them dream up an
idea and then it becomes their idea and
they become obsessed with it rather
than you tell them what to do.
One of the themes of your journey
that I picked up from your notes?
Is that shift from doing the job
and enabling others to succeed?
And as I say, it sounds obvious and I
know we've just spoken about that, but
one of the challenges that
everyone will face, if they haven't
already, is that step up from individual
contributor to leader. What did you
think the job was going to look like
before you took it? Not easy probably.
I made the step up at Force 24.
I was the best salesperson
there for a couple of years.
And as is often the case, best IC
gets promoted to a sales leader, sales
director, which happened to me. And
I think to be honest, that's what I
wanted actually deep down.
I did want that step. If I think back
to it, you know, I love selling, I
did, I did, you know, I've always had
some leadership traits, I believe,
right from early days of
playing sport, et cetera.
So I did feel like I had a lot to
offer to people, but when I made that
step, it was a total whirlwind
from start to finish.
You're probably going to ask me why,
so I'll beat you to it, but long story
short, maybe you want to ask a
follow up question after, but.
Started off well, but then we got
series A investment and we, and you'll
know all about investment
now, Mark, obviously.
And we had to scale from a
team of five to 18 overnight.
And I hadn't had any leadership training.
I was just thrusted into this role
and suddenly we had to triple the size
of the sales team, hire SDRs, more
AEs, product experts. And we were
chasing high targets, you know, set by
sudden investment.
And from there, it was just a
crash course in sales leadership.
Very, very tough, but learned a
hell of a lot along the journey.
how much did you raise? Five
million from memory, Series A.
Yeah. And you had to, as I say, I
appreciate with that comes new targets and
to hit those targets, you
need to hire quite quick.
You obviously mentioned a lot there,
like the word whirlwind is obviously
something that's going to just linger
a little bit, but what was the biggest
challenge for you in that period? Hiring.
right people once you've hired them,
coaching them to as sales reps to hit
those numbers. And it's very
difficult, very, very difficult.
We were having a conversation before,
weren't we, about how hard it is to,
you know, coach these reps and educate
them well and be consistent with that
coaching to enable them to succeed at
the best possible and have the best
possible chance. And I think, you
know, those were the two biggest
challenges. Hiring the right people.
And once we got those people, and in
some cases we didn't, make sure that we
were always coaching them to ensure
that they reached the maximum ability.
And I actually was very, very lucky
that Force 24 got me some help six
months into that job. I think it was
around six months where some, where a
sales, well, a couple of sales
consultants, sales leadership consultants
came in to help me. And one of them is
still a very cherished mentor to this
day. And that...
helped me to learn, not only learn
how to do the job, but also help me to
understand what kind of leader I
was and what kind of leader I would
flourish as. And I still think to this
day that I am that leader even now.
And that I would say is a coach
first leader. I myself coach first.
And that's how the, that's the way
I like to lead with that at the
forefront. you know, that, that
journey really helped shape that.
So many questions that I want to
ask. Let's start with, so yeah.
You've raised 5 million. What was
really feasible was you get replaced
pretty quickly. They bring in someone
and say, look, put 5 million in the
business. We're going to bring in our
own sales leader that we worked with
before. Obviously that didn't happen
to you. They've seen something in you,
but equally you needed help. How did
the mentorship and coaching work?
You say two people come into the
business. Was that something you asked for
or was that something
that given to you? Given.
I'm not sure where it came from,
whether it was an investor request.
You know, maybe Brett needs help and
as often as the case, the investors,
you know, share ideas on
things that could help.
So maybe it was that I was never,
never sure, but I was glad to get it.
It was timely. And what did it look
like in terms of that relationship?
How often do you meet? What
did they help you with?
Well, they were on site two days a week,
I think, and they were on a sort of
short term contract to help me, but
also did quite a lot of coaching with
the team as well. We got
all of the sales team.
AEs and SDRs on crash courses in
different elements of sales and levelling
up some of the sales skills. So they
did that and then they were mentoring
me as well to enable me
to become a better leader.
So it was just super timely
because we were struggling.
Post investment, I remember very vivid,
very well that it started well, but
it quickly took a turn
once we'd ramped the team.
I wasn't providing the coaching they
needed and neither was, you know, other
sales management that I had in the
team. So we quickly had to get that
embedded because if you don't,
it's not going to go well.
Coaching has to be at the
heart of a sales team.
Even if you're not the coach leader
first, like me, and not all sales
leaders are, there's
different types of leadership.
Coaching has to be at the
heart of any team. Definitely.
How did you take to being
coached yourself first of all?
And the reason I ask that, you've
obviously got a sports background.
You'd been coached there regularly
and seeing that impact on your sports
performance. But when investments
happened and they bring in some coaches, I
think you could look at that as a,
ah, I feel like I'm being tested here.
I don't know who these people are that
they're here to help me, but they're
from the investor. Or you
can look at this amazing.
I'm going to get to work with people
that have done what I want to do.
They're going to help me,
but it can still be daunting.
You might start in one and
get to the other place.
How did you take that coaching?
think you've nailed it.
Definitely started in.
Who are these people coming in? You
know, I've got a bit of an ego as every
salesperson has maybe. So, you know,
when I think back to that time, I was
like, what's happening here? But then,
and do you know what, Mark, I'll be
deadly honest, I never
coached. I never coached.
I didn't really, never crossed my mind
at that time that coaching was even a
thing perhaps.
You know, I could manage people, but
I couldn't coach two very different
things. And when those consultants came
in, they opened my eyes to coaching,
which I'd never had before. So quickly
when they opened my eyes to it, I
knew the power of it. And
I knew the power of it.
And I'm not just saying that because
I'm sat on the, the MySalesCoach
couches, the way, plugging
coaching, genuinely mean it.
It was incredibly game changing for
Force 24 at that time, not only for me,
but the sales team. So when they
introduced me to it, the power of it.
It was a real defining moment, not only
for me, but for the sales team as we
went, as we carried on that journey.
what was the penny drop moment for you
then where you went from, you know,
who are these people to wow, I get the
power of it. What was the
moment that made you switch?
I think they, from memory, they opened
my eyes to things like call playback
sessions. And back then, you know, we
were recording calls on, you know, the
likes of Zoom, but never once did I
think, should I do a call playback with
a sales rep?
And when they introduced me to that
and how to coach a rep through it, game
changing. You know, and if you think
of the best, and I always say, I always
speak about this when it comes to
coaching. If you think about the best,
you're into football. We
were talking about it before.
The best managers out
there are coaches, they?
Pep Guardiola, Jürgen Klopp, two.
Two of the very best, I would say,
coaching. When I saw things like call
playbacks in action, they're trying to
get one percent, you know, that's
getting an extra couple of percent out of
every rep. And I believe once I saw that.
That's, that's, that's how to run a
sales team and get more out of the best
people. And I think that's what
happens on a training pitch with those
coaches, for example, continually
trying to get extra percents out of
people. The only way you can do that
is by coaching and getting more ability
out of them. The football is an
interesting one because how many great
players, top performers, you will,
struggle to become great football
managers, i.e. coaches. And
then when you name like.
Pep Guardiola and I'm not familiar with
Jurgen Klopp's playing days, but Pep
Guardiola is a great example. He
wasn't great, I don't believe it.
Wasn't a great player,
but he's a great coach.
it comes back to what you said,
it's a totally different job.
it's, know, do you think there's the
ability to be a great sales coach if
you wasn't a great sales
performer? Yeah, I do.
I do. mean, um, I don't think every
manager out there was always a great
performer, perhaps. Um, I believe that.
You can, you can learn that stuff and
you can teach you having learned it
yourself. You can teach
people how to, how to do it.
Of course, I think you, you'd have,
I'm a firm believer you've had to be on
the front line and done it yourself,
but that's very different from being
the best at it. Um, but I'm a firm
believer they've got to have done the
role to be able to teach it. And,
and, and, that's a different story.
Yeah, no, I agree with that. You know,
I speak to SDR managers that want to
be sales leaders and I say,
you have to be an AE then.
You've got to do that. You've got
to earn your stripes, so to speak.
So yeah, it sounds like these two
coaches really not just helped coach you,
but helps you create a coaching culture
and turns you into, as you describe
yourself, sales coach first.
What does coaching look like?
Let's imagine I took a job as
an AE working in your team.
What does that look like? What do
I get? A lot of intense coaching.
think you have a smirk there because,
you know, any AEs I've managed, I
think you threw a sat on the couch.
couch now, they would say it's
not easy working under me.
I'll be deadly honest. Because it is
intense when it comes to coaching.
I'm very intense with call playback
reviews, know, deal reviews, pipeline
run throughs, one to ones. So they
get a lot of that and I genuinely
believed and believe and the feedback
I've had from people that have worked
under me, AEs, SDRs, they've
learned a lot through that.
So the one word I would
describe it as is intense.
from start to finish from
the minute they're with us.
It's intense, but I feel
they reap the rewards of it.
And it's very coaching
heavy every single week.
And I've instilled that not only in
the team, but the managers also working
under me that, know, coaching's got to
be at the forefront for them as well.
Not only in sales team, but the wider
teams now I'm general manager of
Leadoo. So not just looking after
sales, all teams and that's what I'm
trying to instill with them as
well. And do you adapt at all?
like to the person you're coaching,
like you use the word intense and I get
you can be intense all the time, but
do you adapt how you coach based on who
you sat with? Yeah, I think you've got,
you have to be not every person that
you sit in front of has the same
personality, same traits, same skillset.
So you have to adapt to who's in front
of you and you know, adapt also in a
sense of getting the best out of them
and understanding how to get the best
response out of them.
And I think you've got to adapt
your leadership style to that.
Coaching is still at the heart of it,
but you've got to understand, do they
prefer an arm around them? Do they
prefer more authoritative approach?
So absolutely adapting to that is
paramount. Sales leaders, I guarantee
this, the forecast you're
looking at isn't accurate.
Why? Because your reps have deals
that become stuck in the pipeline.
Things like champion leaving,
not being taken to power.
Procurement enters the
deal at the last minute.
They're ghosting you. Imagine if your
reps had access on demand to support,
where they could get one-to-one
deal coaching with one of our expert
coaches. That's what we provide.
Your reps can use it proactively.
Perhaps they've got a meeting coming
up and they want to ensure they're
putting their best foot forward. They
can book time with a coach and prepare
for that upcoming meeting.
Or perhaps it's reactively.
There's a snag. There's
a last minute problem.
They need help moving
an opportunity forward.
They can book same day coaching with
one of our expert sales coaches and get
help. deal coaching gives your reps
every opportunity to secure the best
outcome and keep your forecasts
as accurate as possible.
So help me understand how you overcome
one of the key challenges, which I
believe to be coached effectively,
you need to be vulnerable with your
coach. need to be honest. And
you've obviously experienced this.
Your own words had that like,
are these two people coming in?
To really get effective coaching from
them, you need to open up six months
in a row, not done this
before, I'm struggling.
And equally when you're coaching
people, they need to say to you,
why I didn't ask that
question, how it makes me feel.
How do you create a space where people
can be open and vulnerable with you?
Well, I think it works both ways,
doesn't it? know, honesty is key.
It's a two way relationship. So I
think that's got to flow both ways.
I think I've done a good job in
creating an environment where I can be
approached for support and help. And
in turn that makes it easy for a rep to
be open in those conversations.
I also am a big believer that
Truth also lives in CRM. So if that's
up to date and on point and admin's
been done, coupled in combination with
the rep being honest, that's going to
make, that's going to be the
makeup of a powerful one-to-one.
If the two don't align, it's not that
easy, but I think that's another thing
I've instilled sort of, know, standards
that I expect around CRM, et cetera,
and making sure that's up
to date. Plus you're honest.
honesty in the conversation to make
sure we can have a powerful one-to-one
from a coaching perspective. Yeah. I
think one of the changes that I see was
that if the CRM isn't up to date,
you lose too much of your time.
Absolutely. And the
one-to-one time is precious.
Yeah, it is. And are your one-to-ones
and coaching time, are they together
or separate? Separate, yeah. We have
one-to-ones like pipeline reviews, then
we have a call playback in one-to-one
setting, and then we have team
playback.
So, then mixed into that bi-weekly,
have different training sessions on
different topics. So it's pretty intense.
Where do you think your sales team
would be without that coaching and
training? It sounds like it's such a
well-run machine. And I've
seen a lot of sales leaders.
Could be better probably.
Well, let's ask about that.
But where do you think, if you left
tomorrow and that culture was lost, how
do you think that team
would cope without you?
Well, if they had a leader that came
in that wasn't like that, they would be
missing a lot. You know,
they're not going to...
you know, level up their skillset,
level up their knowledge, you know, do
the right things in the right way in
real time in these deals that are going
on and happening. So, you know, I've
worked under managers that are very,
you know, hands off, shall we say,
and I'm very much the opposite.
And I feel like in my opinion, the top
teams that thrive are ones that are
not being micromanaged. That's
different, but I get in hands on support,
hands on leadership.
Um, to, to help them succeed. that's
sort of the culture and environment
that I've built. Um, so I think if
they weren't getting that performance
would definitely take a hit.
Yeah. Pretty, pretty severe.
me a percent. Definitely
50 to 60% down on numbers.
Wow. Okay. That's, that's really high.
You believe without regular coaching
performance could be 50
to 60% down. Easily. Yeah.
Yeah. Easily. Um, I mean, you know,
Mac, you're living and breathing it
every day in your, in your business.
It's so hard to close a deal these
days, probably never harder, buying
groups are bigger. You know, there's
lots of things going on in the world
that impacts deals and businesses
and the economy, cetera.
So if a sales rep isn't getting all
the support and real-time coaching,
everything they need, I mean, how
many, mean, the amount of one-to-ones I
walk into where there's lots of gaps
in deals, if they haven't got that help
to understand how to avoid
those and get it right then.
That deal's not going to close and
that's happening in many deals.
Otherwise there would be no point
in having coaching, would they?
yeah, firm believer it
would take a drastic hit.
Here's what I'm seeing as well. I don't
think anyone would disagree with the
sentiment. Buyers are
getting smarter all the time.
And we live in a world now where
buyers don't even need to speak to a
salesperson. They can use
their network. They can use AI.
They can get a deep understanding
of your product, your service.
What you're good at, what you're not
good at, independent review websites.
Like there's so many different channels
out there that can feed into a buyer
that by the time they come to speak
to a salesperson, they can be the most
knowledgeable person in the room when
it historically was the salesperson.
And I think if we all accept that buyers
are getting smarter to your words,
selling is getting harder. If you're
not levelling up your sales reps,
they're actually going
backwards. Oh, definitely.
Yeah, I totally agree, Mark. I think
you've, I think you've nailed it.
I think that's why.
You know, they need such intense coaching
and help and support because it's
just getting harder and harder and
you might not get another chance with
that customer. You probably wouldn't
get another chance with that customer.
So you've got to make it count. If
they're in the sales process, you've got
to nail it there. And then if you
don't, you're probably not going to get
that other chance. And they're going
to go to a competitor, for example.
So absolutely important to get
it right. love how aware you are.
And the reason I'm so surprised, because
I don't think many sales managers
would say out loud.
50 to 60, I don't think they'd place
that much value in terms of percentage
points on coaching and they're wrong
to, just, yeah, I was, I was surprised
you went that high because I think most
people wouldn't want to say that out
loud because they don't coach enough.
I think that's the sad reality of the
situation. I make one more point
on that? Maybe to put it in another
perspective. I can't sleep at night
if I don't run my usual coaching
sessions in a week or two weeks.
I lose some sleep over it because it's
that ingrained and I'm that much of a
firm believer it's the difference maker
that if I'm struggling for time and
I'm not doing as much of it or I've
had to cancel one or two sessions which
doesn't happen regularly at all, very
rarely to be fair but if that does
happen in a week I'll lose sleep because
I know that it will probably impact
some performances across the team. So
let's just dive a little bit deeper
there, it just brings
like your lying in bed.
you're worried about it. What is
actually going through your mind?
I know that the coaching I provide
and the management provides impacts
closing deals. I know it
does. I know it wins deals.
I just know. I mean, we've
done a lot of analysis into it.
I know how vigorous my one-to-ones
are in terms of going into those deals
and inspecting them and coaching the
reps on, know, and working together on
a plan to move that deal forward to close.
So as well as the team coaching
sessions, we have that impact deals and
maybe even doing playback sessions. I
know some of those don't happen, then
it's going to be the difference between
a good month or a bad month or a
good month or a bad quarter. That's
why I very rarely let it happen.
circumstances mean that sometimes
sessions are cancelled, but I try and
avoid it. So I lose sleep. know, it
is a different, I believe it is a
absolute differentiator. are the benefits?
do you see from coaching? And what I
mean by that is people talk to me about
retention rates. They think
people stay there for longer.
They talk about recruitment. They can
attract better talent because of the
culture they've built and what that
means. But what about you personally?
What have you seen to be the other
benefits beyond revenue to coaching?
I think you've, you've named a couple
of big ones there to be fair, like
keep, know, keeping hold of the, your
best people and, and the, you know,
because they're seeing benefit day to
day of, you know, they know they're
levelling up and getting
better and that's big.
Other benefits of coaching. I
mean, let's think of the customer.
It's a great, it's a much
better buying experience.
If the rep really knows and understands
the customer, which they should get
through coaching, the buyer should have
a much better experience, much, much
better experience. And I think our,
you know, I was doing in in Leadoo's
example today, I think our buyers
get a really good sales process, go
through a really good sales process
because the coach, sorry, the reps
understand how to really uncover pain and
understand how the solution
needs to solve that pain.
So, you know, I would put the
customer at the heart of it.
think it really improves the buying
experience is one big benefit.
That's a great answer. One of the
things that you mentioned probably five,
six minutes ago now was about how
like deal reviews, spotting what's
missing, supporting the reps. And one
of the challenges that you told me
that you can have is
Hero managing. How, how, well, first
of all, how would you describe hero
managing and where is that line for
you between coaching a deal and hero
managing? hero managing, mean
stepping in to save the day.
Yeah. That's, that's what
I took from your notes.
You mentioned that a lot of
leaders fall into hero managing.
Yeah. suppose first of all, yeah. What
would you describe as hero managing?
Stepping in to save the day. Like,
yeah, I think stepping in to win that
deal on behalf of the
rep alongside the rep.
which is easy to fall in the trap of
and I have done so myself and still to
this day I feel sometimes I've got to
step in to really help the rep close
it over the line. you know, in an ideal
world you would want to avoid that
because the less sales calls I can be
in these days, the better because I
know that the team can do it
and the individuals can do it.
I think it's best to try and avoid
that. Of course, it still probably needs
to happen, but if you can
avoid it as much as you can.
And the onus to be on the reps to get
that deal closed, for example, the
better. So I would love advice here.
I am sure people listening, I find it
almost impossible not to do hero
managing when you're on a call.
And let me tell you that there's
two things that are play.
think one is you know that
you can say something better.
You know that you can ask a missing
question. They're there in front of you.
So there is that.
I can help this deal by speaking
up. Here's the other problem.
Power speaks to power. And I find that
the hardest thing that I can join a
call. I'll say, look,
I'm not going to jump in.
I'm here to support. But as soon as
they realise your role and that you're
the senior, you're who they want to
speak to. And I can find that really
hard as I'm sure many managers listening
to go, I appreciate you've asked me
that question. I'm actually going to
let my sales rep answer without taking
over. And I think
Once that train starts on that call
and you're the one speaking, it's so
hard to stop. What advice
do you for people out there?
I think you've sort of just gave the
answer to be fair, Mark, that would
give. It is so easy to fall in a trap
and they do want to speak to power and
you are level with that person. So of
course they want to speak with me, for
example. I try to come from a place
now where I just tee the sales rep as
much as I can to...
to uncover, ask the right question,
just give a subtle sort of nudge of what
they perhaps should ask in that call
to the sales rep and they ask, answer
it, ask it, ask it or answer it. So I
just try and empower them as much as
possible. That's the word empowerment
rather than trying to take over.
I think maybe 18 months, two years
ago, was stepping in those calls.
I was wanting to be the hero. Maybe
still some of the salesmen, sorry.
just ingrained in me and wanted that.
But now I'm, you know, I just try and
empower my reps as much as possible.
And I'm doing that in those calls.
So, and again, there's no bad answer
because I know I would struggle with
this. If you're on a sales call, let's
say this afternoon, and you know that
the deal was going south, are you
comfortable letting it go south and
coaching afterwards? Or do you
think you'd still chime in?
I'd still chime in. We want the deal.
We want the deal, but I'd try and
avoid it and we'd still coach after.
We'd still do an instant
review, straight after the call.
But you we can't lose deals.
So I'd step in. step in.
yeah. I respect your honesty
there because I'm the same.
I try my best. I think one of the
problems that we don't talk about here
though is how it makes a
salesperson feel when you chime in.
Have you ever had feedback from
someone where they've said like, look,
you've just taken over and
Yeah. And listen, some meetings have
gone south as well, whereby maybe I've
come in with, you know, too forceful
is not the word maybe, but too
overpowering is the word I'm looking
for, And, you know, the AE pulled me up
straight after and said,
what the hell was that?
You know, I don't, I didn't understand
why you went down that route, Brett.
So, you know, I need to
get feedback as well.
You know, I've, I've refined the way
I got, I step into those calls over
the, over the, over the last
couple of years as well.
And we're always learning, right?
Life is one big learning curve.
So I'm still learning as a, as
a salesperson as well, guess.
agree. think, yeah, anyone that
doesn't think that they're constantly
learning has kind of got a bit
of a closed mind personally.
think one of the things I find funniest
is when someone says to me, you
know, Oh, my team, they've
got 10 years experience.
And it's like, have they said the same
year 10 times or have they grown and
developed each year? I think.
You can confuse tenure and for experience.
Um, and it feels like you haven't
got that mindset. And again, it sounds
like you mentioned like the coaches,
one of them still a mentor to you
today. How often do you speak with them?
Not as often as I would like, obviously.
Um, I went for dinner with them in
London late last year. Actually. It
was great just to catch up and just get
advice. I still speak to her fairly
regularly to exchange WhatsApp, et
cetera. Still asking
for advice to this day.
I've got another great mentor as well
who is a very much different type of
leader, not a coach at all, I would
say, but more from a strategic
perspective. So, you know, I'm always,
always open ears, always wanting to
learn. So, you know, I'm glad I've
got those mentors and I've needed them
over the last few years for sure. Most
people don't have a mentor, but they
just don't by the very nature of that.
Or they might have, they might say,
no, I've got a mentor, but it's very
casual and they feel like they can't.
ask for help all the time because they
don't want to take the mick, so to
speak. If there's someone listening
right now that is a sales leader or even
just an individual, they don't have a
coach or something go to, what would
you say to them? Get one fast. Just
because I think, you know, I'm a big
believer that obviously you can have
a mentor in the business that you work
in, let's say, but I, maybe they won't
always be as honest as you'd want
them to be because you know, you're
working a long time on day to day.
So I think it's really important to
get fresh perspective, ideas, honesty.
I think that person has to work outside
the business that you're working in.
So, you know, that's what I want from
the mentors that I've got to give me
honesty and, you know, give me
honest feedback on where things could
improve, how I could do it better.
What could I do differently?
And I think, you know, any salesperson
out there, I would say that I really
wish I had the mentors that
I've got now 10 years ago.
it would have been a game changer and
I didn't really have a mentor then,
but I wish I did because I'd have learned
a hell of a lot faster than I have
done. can relate to that. think most
people that have a regular coach or
mentor, they didn't seek it. They got
it and then they realised the power of
it and they say that, you know,
I wished I had that earlier.
Yeah. One of the reasons we called the
podcast, I used to be Crap at Sales
is because one, everyone did right.
But two, it took me about eight years.
to really realise what I
was doing wasn't effective.
And that all changed when I got coaching.
And again, I didn't ask for that.
It kind of just happened. And I
found that hard to accept at first.
You know, Christ, I'm
getting feedback on my call.
Someone's giving me criticism. Someone's
suggesting I do things differently,
but it's when you have that moment,
when you tip over the edge, we like, Oh,
this is working. This is going to
be, I wished I had that earlier.
And I think.
know, sports are great analogy of
that, like the impact of coaching, et
cetera. Let's move on because we're
still talking about a specific part of
your career, but one of the other
notes you said over to me was the shock
when you stepped into a global VP
and sales role, managing 60 plus
professionals, different cultures,
different expectations, different ways of
working. Tell us more about that shock
and what your new job at this point
in your career looked like.
Yeah, I mean, I've worked for Leadoo
coming into my fourth year now and
Leadoo's a Finnish business. So I
was born and raised in Helsinki seven
years ago. I joined just nearly four
years ago as the UK country lead.
They were just wanting to, obviously
to build and grow the UK market.
It was to become, and they wanted it
to become a key component in Leadoo's
growth. And it has been
over the last three years.
And then at Leadoo, I...
moved into the VP sales role in the
third year, very successful, oversaw UK
and our other markets, Finland and
Sweden. Then were acquired in November,
2024 by SALESmanago and quickly three
months into that, I was appointed
global VP of sales, not only over
Leadoo, but over SALESmanago, whom are a
Polish business. So all of a sudden
I was global VP of sales across four
regions, across two businesses. So.
another whirlwind and you know, it's
not often the case that the acquired VP
of sales is then put into that position.
But I was really thankful of the
opportunity and I had 12 months
of it at it pretty much last year.
But it was just full throttle and
again, learning curve, steep learning
curve like Force 24 was like my
initial days at Leadoo were as well.
It was just totally
different, bigger scale.
managing different cultures,
different ways of working, different
nationalities. So I had to quickly
adapt and again, but I stuck to my ways
of working and ways of leading and
coaching was at the heart of it.
you know, I tried to ingrain that
last year across the business, did to
success. But you know, it was hard. It
was just different, totally different
and a bigger scale, I would say. I know
you'll take this to question the why
it's intended, but
Why are you getting these jobs? Like,
you know, like you say, it's not
normal when a company gets acquired
that the acquired company, you step up
to be the VP across the group. What is
it that you're doing that makes them
go, Brett's the man? I think that I'm
built differently in a way that I so
driven to succeed. And I just go ever
since I started out in my, in my first
job. Um, and it's been ingrained
in me through, you know, um,
you know, growing up as well and the
values that my parents had and things
like that, that I just worked extremely
hard, very driven and would go the
extra mile at every opportunity to
impress people and impress the right
people and make sure that I was the
first name on the lips to get that role.
So, you know, I would say that might
not be the sort of best answer, I
guess, but that's kind of
what I'm getting at, think.
just built differently really to
succeed. Well, let's dig into that.
I can feel from you that you're trying
not to give answers that make you
sound like you've got a
massive ego. Is that fair?
Let's just relax, right? In the sense
of, I think everyone's got an ego.
And I think the biggest thing
is how aware you are of it.
You seem like you're very self-aware.
I suppose the bit I'm going to
challenge you on, stick with the
challenge, is you can have the drive, but
that doesn't mean you're
the right man for the role.
Someone can desire it.
but you've obviously got something
about you and you said you go hard to
impress people. What do you mean by
all that? Yeah, I think if I think back
to, you know, the roles that I got
Force 24, Leadoo the group VP sales role
last year. I just feel like if I look
back to all those times and roles, I
was just smart in how I went about it
and impressing those different people.
When I say I would go the extra mile,
I would be presenting, you know, a
strategy to the CEO.
you know, on how to turn things around
and how to do things differently, how
to approach it differently.
And I'd be on the front line.
I'd be showing them how it should
be done, but also that I could coach
people into doing it and following my
values, following how I would do it,
taking people on a journey, which is
massive. And so I think I could just
prove that my way would be the right
way. Not always the right way, but I
just feel like I can, I can captivate
the right audience to believe that my
approach would be the right way of
doing it. I just feel like maybe.
That's maybe a differentiator versus
other people think I've got a way of
doing it. mean, what I'm
hearing influencing. Yeah.
So what I'm hearing here is you will,
you will go out of your way to really
show. Here's what we're doing today.
Here's what I think we should be doing.
Here's how I'd implement it. And you're
kind of pushing that story if you
will, without necessarily having
the experience to back it up.
You're like, can achieve that and you
know, captivating must be part of it.
They must believe in
you and what you can do.
When you say you're built differently,
I just want to pull that apart a
little bit. You mentioned about
like your parents and their- Values.
Yeah, you mentioned like parents'
values. So are you a parent yourself now?
Yeah, I am. Two young boys.
How old? One, and nearly four.
So I've got two boys. I've got a
seven-year-old and a two-year-old and I try
and instil values, et cetera. What
values did your parents give you?
Work ethic. For example, everyone's
got their own story, haven't they?
But my mum and dad were
just extremely hard workers.
You know, my dad, for example, he was,
um, I was lucky enough to send me to
private school actually. And my dad had
two jobs to do that, to enable me to
go there. You know, he was, he was
working through the day, really
successful credit control manager. And
then he was doing a Littlewoods pools
round every night, um, to
send me to private school.
And you know, it's hard not to follow
that and that to be not ingrained in
me when I got into my career,
career to work my socks off at every
opportunity to ensure that, you know,
I was a success, so I mean, that's one
value, but it's one that I hold dear
and have held dear, and it's
really helped me to succeed.
They pushed me at a young age to work
as young as, I think I started working
at 14 or 15 in part-time jobs, pushed
me to do that, and that's really stood
me in good stead. And I thank them
dearly for it today because I think
they're a huge part of where
I am today as well, big time.
Obviously I don't know the answer to
this question, but is there any part of
you that feels like you're constantly
trying to prove yourself to them?
Yeah. Yeah. Prove myself to them,
to now my wife as well and family.
And, you know, I'm really proud of
what I've achieved so far, but I'm not
stopping yet. You know, I've got my
own, I've got plenty still left to
achieve. But I'm proud of what I've
achieved so far in my, you know, what is
it? 14, 15 year career. But
I've still got a long way to go.
But I didn't, I actually didn't think
I'd get to where I am probably at this
age and at this stage. But I must have
been doing some things right to get
here and you know, I've
got to carry on doing them.
You've signed your team up
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That's predictable sales execution.
That's MySalesCoach.
I mean, part of that sounds like it's
because you've had people pushing you
from the family point of
view, but mentors as well.
And I suppose that's going to shape
who you are as a father as well.
But I mean, boys might be a little
bit too young for that sort of talk
track. And I think it'd be illegal to
give them jobs, but in general, like
you're going to push that
on them as well. Yeah.
mean, absolutely. I've got a, you know,
I've got different values that, you
know, and the same values that I want
to, you know, try and ingrain in them,
but.
You know, I want them to also lead
their own lives and grow up in their own
way. But of course, going to do
our best to guide and coach them.
We have to, don't we? But yeah, know,
values are critical out there to help
them on the way. really are. I had
a coaching session with my son this
morning. I wrote a post
about this on LinkedIn.
Every night we practice his spellings.
And all year he's got 10 out of 10
except for one week and he was gutted.
Anyway, last night my wife was out.
And, uh, I had the two boys
and, uh, didn't do spellings.
just forgot. So this morning I was
like, we're practicing them walking to
school. And he just says, dad, I do
not want to do this on the way to
school. I was like, why
don't you do it to me then?
And I just learned the lesson of like,
you know, as a coach, put yourself in
the hot seat. So he took
my phone and he loved it.
He was giving me all these words and
like, it was stuff like, um, gardener,
gardening, forgetting, forgetful.
And, I knew by him testing me and me.
getting the odd letter wrong, he was
straight in with, no, you got that
wrong. It's, I knew that
was reinforcing into him.
And I think, yeah, there's,
there's a lot of similarities.
Yeah. I think that's a great way to
coach. Do you ever put any of your calls
forward for a call review? I have in
the past, now you say that I haven't
recently actually. You
don't do it as many days.
Yeah, not, not anymore, but when
I was sales lead, did, course.
And also I was, we do role
plays and I would play the AE.
while the team watched to
put myself in their shoes.
And I think people respect
that. Sales reps respect that.
They want to see the leaders,
you know, show how it's done.
most people, when they hear the word
role play, toes curl and they dread it.
Yeah. Why do you think that
is and how important is it?
I think, I mean, it depends if there's
an audience, I guess, as well that
that that help makes them dread it. But
I just feel like they may be fearful
of
what the reaction will be, what the
feedback will be, what the, yeah, well,
guess reaction and feedback will
be from the manager or the team.
So it's not, it's probably not
comfortable thing, but I think it's super
powerful, isn't it, in teaching the
rep very quickly where the gaps are,
where their opportunities are
and how to course correct.
So very powerful play. got any tips
for managers that want to do more role
play, but they just, they feel like it's
They get the wrong sort of
vibe and energy from the reps.
They see it negatively. Have you got
any tips for implementing role play
successfully? Well, number one, we've
just gone through it, you know, put
yourself in their shoes and do it
yourself and show them how it's done.
That would be tip number one. Tip
number two would be to, you know, mix up
the type of role plays, different
scenarios. Very easy to just do a
discovery role play or a call role play.
I think you need to go even further
now and go deeper in specific segments
of different calls. For example, the
demo part of a demo call, because
there's more parts than just the demo
in a demo call, or there should be in
my view, or it could be
the closing of a demo call.
That specific segment or timestamp
role playing, what could happen, what
should happen, what might
happen in that scenario.
I think leaders fall into the trap of
the traditional way of just doing a
discovery demo or demo demo.
think it's got to be much more specific
than that because different things
happen at different times
and different calls.
So that would be my, my other big tip.
I think that word specific is key.
so I, I'm a big fan of this, but do
you know what I call it practice?
Yeah. And I think just changing
the word role play to practice.
Yeah. idea. Yeah. Immediately
kind of move that.
But secondly, one of the worst
experiences of my sales career was a role
play because.
It felt so weird. I am,
it was a two story office.
I had to go down to the first
floor, arrive at reception.
I had to go into the meeting room. They
were all sat there and these are all
like, like three of my bosses
and literally do the whole thing.
Start to finish. It was like an hour
and then leave and then go back and get
feedback. I remember just seeing
like, this is fucking wild.
Like it's just so weird, you know?
Whereas what I like to do is what
specific.
And some of the best role play I've
ever had on me is, you know, and I
remember this specifically. Um, so I
did, I had an opportunity with the RAC.
There's pun galore out of this
cause the deal broke down.
Um, I got, I got so many jokes and the
other sales teams, but it got to the
point where we'd swapped, um, bank
information and contracts are out.
This deal should be done, right.
Collapsed. And as I said, I all the puns,
but there was a point in that process
where I had a call and rather than
role play the whole call.
My boss at the time just said, right,
if they say this, what are you going
to say back? And we just
role played that one thing.
And scenario. Yeah. I like it being
specific. If we role played the whole
call, it just wouldn't have gone
naturally. the same traction.
Absolutely. It's about, okay, Mark,
this is the big thing that's going to
come up. If they say this,
what are you going to say?
Yeah, absolutely. And like I say,
that was so helpful on the call.
Um, and I think those would be
my tips. Be really specific.
Like what you say.
And just call it practice.
Yeah. I think that changes.
One more tip that's not role play
specific, but I don't think a lot of sales
reps do it and even mine, uh, perhaps
actually, but don't be afraid to get
feedback from the customer, you know,
after, after they've been through the
sales process, probably, but don't be
afraid to, to maybe, you know, have 10
minutes with the customer and request
for some sort of feedback on how they
thought the sales process went, and
you know, the kind of questions I was
asking as a sales rep, very powerful,
you know, and I don't think a lot of
reps do it.
Sort of connected. Clean hands, haven't
they? The logo's closed, they move
on. Yeah. Yeah. I think, do you do
that as well when you lose deals?
You should do it. Yeah. In
all sorts of deals, might.
Yeah. Or even deals that obviously
might be for later down the line, you
know, just try and get as much feedback
as you can, not only internally, but
externally. Yeah. No, I agree. I think
you learned some really interesting
things there. One of the things that
we've done a few times is we have a
customer join our weekly team
coaching session and we...
play the callback that they were
involved in. But then there's always 15
minutes at the end or at the start
either or but Q &A, why did you buy?
What were you looking at? What's
changed? And it's learning their language
as well. So that's really
powerful. I'm going to move on.
The topic is going to go in
a different direction now.
You spoke about your greatest achievements
in life and very proud of what
you've achieved and stuff. I think
we're probably not naming your greatest
achievement, which is overcoming
cancer. And I know that word
cancer on its own just has so much
emotion and feeling for people listening
to it. me personally, I've had family
members die from it, et cetera.
You, you were very keen in an amazing
way to open up about what you went
through and tell us what happened. Um,
was a sudden shock really, as I think
everyone would probably say when they,
when they talk about, um, the cancer
in their journey, I felt, I mean,
just to go through the quick version,
guess felt, uh,
pain in my groin for a
good few weeks actually.
And I said to my wife one day, this
pain is not going away, it's nagging.
I've played a lot of sport and I knew
it wasn't like a groin pull pain, for
example. But it was a different kind
of pain and I felt it wasn't right.
I woke up one morning, I said to my
wife, like, something's not right here.
And for some reason she said, feel, I
don't mind saying it, feel your balls,
feel your testicles. And I did, got in
the shower that morning and I felt a
lump on my testicle.
Luckily got in the doctors the same
day and they referred me straight away
for an ultrasound. The
doctor was great actually.
He didn't really want to say, I think
he could be said, don't worry about
it. It does feel unusual, but
ultrasound will tell us the story.
was fantastic and they got me in quickly.
Had the ultrasound and yeah, they
confirmed it was a tumour.
what I will ever forget and it
will live with me to that day.
And I didn't actually found out it was
cancer that day because we tested for
the cancer. They've got to cut the
testicle out and they're going to test it
because it could be a
benign tumour, for example.
So that day of the scan, I remember
walking out of the hospital and I just
couldn't believe it because I just,
our son was only sort of nine months
old. just had our first son more or
less. And you shouldn't think this, but
all I could think of was why me?
at that time. But looking back, I
shouldn't have thought about it that way,
but I'm being honest. And from
there, it escalated pretty quickly.
The test came back, it was cancer. Had
to sit in the room where, of what you
see on the adverts, where it's a plain,
four-wall white room, and you sat
down by a consultant and they say, and
my wife was next to me, it's cancer.
And nothing can prepare you
for that, really. It was a...
Tough time, I think the reason I wanted
to mention it, and obviously you'll
ask a question after it, I think it
defined me as a leader in work because I
changed from that day on in terms of
what kind of leader I am because I was
different before that than I am after
it. There was strikes in the hospital
back then and I told my mum and dad
straight away and they just got me in
private instantly. So I was in the
ultrasound two days later maybe.
I I went into the docks on a Tuesday,
ultrasound Thursday privately.
did you cope with those two
days? Didn't. Well, I did.
You've got to, um, my wife was
a rock. My parents were rocks.
We kept it quite quiet. I
think from memory as well.
We didn't want to say anything
until it was confirmed.
And even the ultrasound can't confirm
it. Like I said, he said, I think it's
a tumour. I don't know for sure. Then
they referred me back through NHS to,
um, get that ball out basically.
And within while I was in the
private ultrasound on the Thursday I
was in surgery the following Friday.
They don't mess around. find that lump.
How quickly do you think you found
it? Well, I'd felt the pain for a few
weeks and I just felt it would go away
and it didn't. um, so it was like, I
would say six weeks I had that pain.
That feels crazy. Doesn't it? Yeah.
Felt the lump and I was out of, through
surgery, through chemotherapy
within six weeks.
How lucky were you though? Like
if you'd have left it and have a
week or month, do you think that
would have been the end or like what
feedback did you get? Well, the longer
you leave it, know, the stages get
worse. You know, there was a case
with John Hartson, remember the
footballer, he had testicular cancer
and he was the final stage and he'd
left it and left it and it
just spread right to his brain.
So the longer you leave
it, it can spread fast.
So I think I just got it at the
right time. was again, pretty lucky.
Let's talk about
how that has impacted you
then as a sales leader.
Well, I mentioned the word intense. I
think sometimes before that may be a
bad intense, maybe, maybe a bit
micromanagement, maybe a bit too harsh at
times, maybe a bit too much work first
rather than, you know, person first.
And what I mean by that is, and I still
think of the business first to this
day. I don't mean that, but you know,
too often at times I was quick to
throw myself straight into one-to-ones
pipelines, et cetera, without asking
the person how they're doing first. And
you don't know what people are going
through in their lives. Like what I
went through, people could be going
through anything. And I think I
never thought twice about that really
before. And it's changed how I
lead people and lead with empathy.
that's helped me to change how I approach
my leadership style and management
style. I think it's just opened my
eyes a bit to that kind of thing.
So I think that's the side of leadership
that doesn't get spoken about it.
I remember having some coaching myself
where I was managing eight or nine
people and I knew this was years ago.
Um, but I felt like I knew everyone's
personal problems. I found that really
hard to like hold all their personal
problems, but not have my own outlet
as well. And someone was coaching me at
the time, this lady.
And she just said like, sorry. Um, and
I was being coached at this time, um,
by a lady. And she said to me,
yeah, you can't hold all that.
You kind of need to be more clinical.
Like when you're in the one to one, of
course you care and you got to ask and
you got to listen and you got to, but
then you've got to let that go
because you can't hold all that.
And I suppose as a sales leader,
yeah, you're, you're saying that what
you've done is try to tune in more
to that and try to understand.
And I think that phrase human first.
leaders really important.
it is. It really is.
It's massive. It's a massive part of
it. And, know, I really tried to think
that I'm an approachable as a leader.
tried to lead with, you know, I tried
to lead on the heartstrings a bit with
the people I manage and emotionally.
I wear my heart on my sleeve as well.
So I try and lead with putting an arm
around them style, you know, to really
help them to open up, be honest and
make them know that I'm approachable and
we're in this together. So perhaps
before I was just not really that type.
I was a nice guy and things like
that, but I just don't feel like I put
enough sort of emphasis on
that and importance on it.
Do you think there's people out there
that if I said, oh, you know, have you
worked for Brett before and they'd say,
yeah, I've worked for Brett before,
they would describe you differently to
how people today might describe you?
Definitely. Yeah. I know
that I've managed people and
You know, they've left the business
because of my intenseness and the way
I've led and the way I've managed. I
know that for a fact, you know, and if
I could turn back time, would have
done it differently with people.
But I also know the majority of people
I've led have learned a lot and have
improved a lot. you know, there's people
that have in Leadoo today that have
worked for me in the past. So I know
I've done some things right along the
journey, but I'm not, I know
that I'm not for everybody.
And I don't think every leader
should be for everybody.
not a personality contest. So, but it
is important to lead in the right way
and lead with, um, you know, your
heart in the right place to make sure
that, you know, you're looking after
everyone's best interest really, if
that makes sense. And I think that's
one of the hard things, you know, sort
of threading this all back through the
thing, what we spoke about today, but
no one tells you how to do that as a
leader. No, no, you got to work it out
for me for yourself. You got to learn
and I'm still learning, Mark, you
know, like my dad always
says this to me, life is one.
Big learning curve. And he always says,
I'm still learning and we are still
learning. You know, that never ends.
And to your point, I think everyone's
got those people who managed earlier
in their careers where they weren't
perfect. It's hard because when that's
your boss, you expect them to be
perfect. You have these expectations
that your boss is going to be a great
leader, a great coach, a great
manager. They're going to have all the
answers, but we don't. we don't get
that support in being great leaders and
great coaches. Well, like you say, you.
You've got to figure out, and I think
that's the tough ride of being a
manager. And the example I give is when
you go from being a friend to being
a boss. Yeah. That's
really tough. Yeah, it is.
It is. But you've got to make that
step. You know, to be a successful
manager, successful leader,
you've got to separate that.
And it's very important to do that as
early as you can and learn how to do
that. But it's not easy.
It's not easy at all.
So, but it's pivotal if you're to
be successful, because if you...
If you can't separate that, you're not
going to give them the feedback and
pointers, et cetera, that they
need to improve to thrive.
So, cause it's not easy to
give that if you're a friend.
you, would you agree that if you're
not able to give straight, honest
feedback that actually
you let them down? Yeah.
Yeah, you are. Yeah. If you're not
giving them honest feedback, then how are
they ever going to learn? and honest
feedback is not always positive, is it?
Uh, and I would say that not giving
that honest feedback will probably be
always positive. Uh, so.
Very important balance. What's the most
difficult bit of feedback you've to
give someone? Quite many,
many, many examples.
Most difficult feedback. I've obviously
said to people, don't think they've
got the right skillset to succeed
in sales. That's happened on a few
occasions. That's not easy to give.
When they're trying the hardest and
doing the best, well,
most of the time they are.
So, you know, giving feedback like that
is important because, know, feedback
as maybe as drastic as that.
is going to go to one or
two ways for that person.
It's going to give them everything they
need, motivation wise to respond or
not. And it's not for them. So one
example, but yeah, got to be honest.
Well, I think the reality is there's
no barrier to entry for sales.
There's no degree or qualification in
it. Anyone can go and get a form of a
sales job tomorrow, depending on
what kind of level they're at.
But I think one of the
things that is coming through
consistently from your answers is how
important recruitment must be for you.
Cause you have to hire people that
one, you know, are coachable to, you
know, are good sales people. Three are
going to work with and respect your
drive, your determination and,
have those similar traits.
But, um, how do you get it right
recruitment? I haven't always got it right.
Mark. It's actually, you know, still
to this day, I've made, I make errors.
with recruitment, I think it's one
of the hardest things to get right.
And I think any business would say
that. I think any leader would say that,
you know, the tools have improved
out there to ensure you, you, you
hopefully bringing the right
people through the door.
It's not always easy. And I've made
quite a lot of mistakes in terms of
hires. So, but you know, I've
got different ways of doing it.
I've learned from my past mistakes. You
know, I think at Leadoo, we know the
kind of profile we need as well. learning.
getting that right is important. It's
a good basis to ensure that you get
the right person through the door. But
it's something that I don't believe
you can ever 100 % get right. just,
until they're in the job, you know, it's
hard, isn't it? I would actually
prefer a world, this might sound
outlandish, but I would actually prefer
a world where there was perhaps no
interviews and they came
and did a day in the job.
In the office with the people and they
did the day in the job, but it's not
as easy as that, it? But I
think that might give you a...
much better steer on whether they're
the right culture fit, whether they can
do the job. They're thrown into the
deep end. Might be the modern way of
doing it. Maybe who knows. Well,
I'll tell you what's interesting.
I'm going to have a guess that every
time you've gone for a promotion,
you've been doing the job
before you've been promoted.
Yeah, absolutely. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. Of course.
Likewise. Yeah. That's
what happens, isn't it?
You know, you're already doing it and
then you've, then you put into the
role. So it's getting them in place.
Have you ever hired someone where
you've had to say to them, I don't
think you've got the skills to be
successful in sales. Plenty of times.
Yeah, I've got hires wrong. Quite a
few of them actually over the last few
roles. And have you ever hired
people where they should have been
successful, but you feel like you as a
boss or as a leader has let them down
because you've not given them
what they need? Yeah, probably.
Yeah. I don't think I'm perfect at all.
I think there's definitely been some
examples. You know, maybe you
can't always get everything right.
You can't always give
everyone everything they need.
Circumstances around that might
dictate that, but I think, um...
Yeah, definitely examples across the
last, you know, the roles that I've had
in the last years. So, yeah, it's
got to be truthful on that one.
I've loved this conversation. Like
there's loads that we've covered here,
like your entry to sales, your upbringing
and how that's built you, who you
are as a person, individual contributor,
how you've led, how you've coached,
your methodology, how you've got
promotions. We spoke about how you've
overcome cancer, which is...
Yeah, it was a really good story
to hear and eye opening as well.
know, I've lost family to cancer,
but never gone through it myself.
And I heard really, really open and
honest reflection on what you've gone
through. I think this has
been a great conversation.
Me too. Appreciate it. What's next for
you? Like where, where you say you're
ambitious and there's more to do.
Where are you going with your career?
Well, first things first, I
want to ensure that that Leadoo.
is seen through to a
successful end of the journey.
Whenever that day might come, know,
I'm general manager of Leadoo now
leading 70 plus people across
various teams, different markets.
First and foremost, I want to ensure
that we, everybody in that business
sees success come the end of that
journey. That's my first plan of action.
Um, and then who knows, you know, I'm
on the path maybe to even be a, you
know, managing director or CEO, given
I'm general manager of a business
right now. So hopefully the path
takes me towards that or maybe even a
very successful CRO, for example. I
think I've got more to give than just a
sales, like the B just a sales
head, if that makes sense.
Definitely. So I want to carry on that
path to make sure that I end up in
the roles where I can deliver
a lot of value to a business.
Not only from a strategic perspective,
but hands on as well and ensure that
whatever I touch is a success.
So more to come for sure.
People can find you on LinkedIn
and follow that journey.
yeah, Brett, really mean it. Thanks
for making the effort to come up.
be in the offices and to share
your story with such honesty.
I really enjoy it. Thank
you. Absolute pleasure.
Thank you, Mark. Thanks
for having me. Thank you.