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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Are you looking to reset your relationship with alcohol? Look no further than our self paced seven day reset program. In just one week, you'll gain the tools and support you need to kickstart your journey to a healthier, more balanced lifestyle.
[00:00:15] Our program includes daily audio, helpful exercises, and guided reflections. And best of all, it's on your time. Head over to sistersinsobriety. substack. com and let's take that first step together towards a better you.
[00:00:29] Kathleen: [00:01:00] Our episode today continues our conversation from last weekIn this episode, we're going to delve into the role of art as the use of therapy in recovery
[00:01:34] Kathleen: I really have felt like, Oh, I couldn't do art therapy because I'm just not artistic in that way. That's the story I've told myself. So for any of our listeners that are thinking, Oh, like I, I can't even draw stick man.
[00:01:47] Kathleen: That's what I always say, but can I can't even draw a stick man. Do, do individuals need to have any like innate artistic talent or experience to benefit? Yeah.
[00:01:55] Sarah: No, no, they just have to be open, just an open mind. That's what the art [00:02:00] therapists are trained to do. They're trained to, help you, inspire you, lead you, guide you. Into, into the process. And there's people, like I said, if you can't draw, there's tricks we have, so you start with collage, do cutouts, do art journaling, print off stuff off the internet, pictures and words, and start placing them.
[00:02:19] Sarah: Just placing them, cut, paste, cut, paste. It's all there, right? Like, it's good enough. And, and then eventually people you'll see, that's why if you commit to a couple sessions, they do loosen up. They, they become less, afraid, right? And, and more open or more confident. And so it just happens. It's just, honestly, it's good for everybody.
[00:02:39] Sarah: I'm telling you, I truly believe this. It's for, it's, it's good for everybody and anybody for whatever they need it for. Whatever they need it for.
[00:02:48] Kathleen: You're convincing me, Sarah, you're so passionate about the subject, that I'm like, yes! I'm gonna do art therapy! Ha ha
[00:02:56] Sarah: I could tell you my own story. I told Sonia about, when I went to [00:03:00] art therapy school about how I missed, something. But when we were in school, we had to do our own art therapy journey. We had to go on our own journey. and so at the final, in the final class, we had to do a presentation and I had saved, we all had saved all of our artwork throughout the year.
[00:03:17] Sarah: And we put it up on a PowerPoint, and I was going through all my work, and I said this and this, and I said, oh yeah, I did this, and oh, there's my themes, yep, yep, there's my themes, and I'm doing my thing, the lights come on, and they're all staring at me, and, and they're like this, like they've seen a ghost, or they're kind of like, Hello?
[00:03:35] Sarah: And I'm like, what? They're like, hello? You, Sarah, what? You missed like the most important thing. I said, huh? And they're like, go back. So I put the lights back down and I went through everything again and they were telling me, right? So this was cool because it's good learning and training and stuff. And they were saying, well, look, there's a heart in every piece of artwork you did and you didn't even notice it.
[00:03:58] Sarah: And I went, what? So I [00:04:00] go back. You're right. You're right. You're right. Oh my gosh. You're right. You're right. You're right. I get to the final piece, big heart under feet, crushed under feet. And, and I, so I cried I can't believe I missed that. And they're like, yeah. And I said, my heart was speaking to me and I will, I'm not listening.
[00:04:18] Sarah: My heart is trying to tell me something and I am not listening. And it was at a time where I was not focusing on myself. I was too busy running around doing this and that, my relationship, I was satisfying other people, people pleasing, trying to just pass, excel in school and just all these things.
[00:04:37] Sarah: And I was not paying attention to me and what I really needed, And it was sad, but it was eye opening and amazing at the same time. Right. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay. I got it. So
[00:04:50] Kathleen: That is an amazing story. That is, and even as a therapist, right? there are things that we, we might miss when it's our own art, like it's when it's our own selves and that it's [00:05:00] so beautiful to have community in that way.
[00:05:02] Sarah: that's
[00:05:02] Kathleen: right? Yeah.
[00:05:04] Sarah: Community groups, group sessions. I love workshops. I love group sessions because it's magical. And what I always tell people too, is that let's say somebody joins a group and they're not comfortable,*and* they feel like, well, I'm not good at art and I don't really know what to start.
[00:05:19] Sarah: I'm not really resonating with this. Even just Sitting and participating in the group, watching other people, and then what ends up happening is piggybacking. I, I find that somebody will do something, share something, and it resonates with two or three other people that needed the message,
[00:05:36] Sarah: I always encourage people to share their work, just anything they create. Yeah, I painted this. It means this. I love it. Or, or I did this. What do you guys think? I just, you feel like you're connected to people. You don't know these people, like strangers. And all of a sudden it's like I'm comfortable with you.
[00:05:51] Sarah: This is amazing. We're all on the same level. it's, uh, it's cool.
[00:05:55] Sonia: Sarah, speaking of that like comfort level, and I'm [00:06:00] sure like Kathleen can talk about this too, but how do you create a safe and like supportive environment for your clients?
[00:06:06] Kathleen: Mhm.
[00:06:07] Sarah: it's really to reinforce the non judgment, we're all in this, everybody's on their own journey. Everybody's going through their own stuff. Nobody's the same. I just always say that when I'm doing any art for wellness session, any group, even when I do paint nights, it's like, okay,there's no judgment.
[00:06:23] Sarah: and it's a safe place to just, just be you, just do you, just focus on the art and that's it. You don't even have to talk. You don't have to say anything. It speaks for itself and, and we all need to just respect each other. Like, I don't know, I just always reinforce the fact that there is no judgment.
[00:06:40] Sarah: And even to not judge yourself, till the end. Like, even in a paint night, let's say I do a paint night, just, art for art's sake. Like, pretty picture, let's do a painting, let's have fun. I do a paint night at a restaurant or something. I'll say to them, don't judge yourself. Try, it will happen, it'll come up, but just, acknowledge it, and then
[00:06:57] Sarah: Get back, focus on what you're doing, [00:07:00] focus on the process and how you feel. Enjoy yourself or, enjoy the calm or, or be proud of yourself for doing something new that you're not comfortable doing. andyou might be surprised. You might like your finished piece. judge at the end, wait till the end, they'll start painting and say, Oh, look at this.
[00:07:13] Sarah: this is terrible. And you're not even done yet. People are so hard on themselves. I'm constantly repeating myself. but it's amazing when the magic happens and then they usually go, huh, that was cool. I don't really like what I did, but I feel great. I feel calm or I feel happy or inspired.
[00:07:30] Sarah: It's like, ah. Good.
[00:07:32] Kathleen: Yeah, it's almost like to check in with the feeling at the end, right? It's maybe not the, like, but how do you feel at the end? Maybe you don't, you're not happy with the piece, but like, how do you feel? Because you might, yeah, yeah, that's really, that's a really good point. I know, Sarah, that you work part time at a, a counseling practice, and I'm just wondering, it sounds like art therapy would be really, really, really conducive to being used in conjunction with other [00:08:00] modalities of therapy.
[00:08:01] Kathleen: So how, how can art therapy use with other forms of therapy?
[00:08:05] Sarah: So for me specifically, let's say somebody seeing a psychotherapist for anxiety, right? And they, that's their issue. They know that's what it is that they're, they're seeing their psychotherapist. I mean, they're on medication. I specifically would be a wellness tool.
[00:08:21] Sarah: In addition to that. Just something healthy and comfortable and safe. but there's art therapists, right. Who practice art therapy that can replace though, that can be, maybe a better fit for some people on the recovery journey and just replace like the talk therapy. Right. So there's that. So it can either be on its own as art therapy, like therapy, or it can be a wellness tool in addition to it's whatever the person needs. Right.
[00:08:51] Kathleen: And before we started recording, I had said to Sarah, cause I'm a couple's therapist. I was like, Oh, I can totally see how art therapy could be used like at a [00:09:00] couple's retreat, for example, or, I use a lot of mindfulness techniques in my practice and art therapy is so lends itself so well to that as well.
[00:09:09] Kathleen: Yeah,
[00:09:16] Sarah: it'd be good bonding for the couples. Right? Like I'm actually doing a portrait paint night, with my artist at, at a restaurant and it's just for fun, but what's going to be cool, it'd be interesting to see how, how people portray the other person, you know, like it's just, it's just neat.
[00:09:34] Sarah: It's a learning tool
[00:09:35] Kathleen: Yeah, I would love to see how, how people portray the other person at
[00:09:39] Sarah: yeah. And their
[00:09:41] Kathleen: and then at the end, probably very differently.
[00:09:47] Sarah: yeah.
[00:09:48] Sonia: Sarah, how do you help them? clients interpret and understand the art they create. Kind of like how your group did that for you by finding that theme of the heart. How do you do that for other [00:10:00] people?
[00:10:00] Sarah: So it's so our therapists are trained to recognize the symbols like you're, we, it's like when you dream, right? It's purging the subconscious. So we just have a way of just seeing. Things in the work, cause you, you're watching the person, I do art while someone else is doing art, so they don't feel like they're being watched, but that's why it's so gentle and feel safer and calm is because the art therapist they're trained to see how you even put down a material, like they could come in and say they're fine, but then how come they're holding the pencil like this?
[00:10:32] Sarah: Yeah. and all their lines are dark and thick and, and, and gone over so many times, so like we, you read, you start to read between the lines, like, how are they applying the materials and, and what colors are they drawn to, why is this person always using black?
[00:10:47] Sarah: Is it because it makes them feel safe? And the blacks always applied like a border. Oh, so they're definitely, they need the safety, the hug, the safety net, the, whatever it is, the crutch, what's the crutch, um, what's going on?
[00:10:59] Sarah: [00:11:00] it's just, they're just trained to see this, trained to feel it, see it in everything, the process, the person, the art, like it's just all connected. Right. but I got to tell you one other story and this is not my own. This was told to us at school. One of my teachers at the time was working with a boy that wouldn't speak.
[00:11:18] Sarah: And they didn't know why. Like he just stopped talking and they're like, what is going on? And it developed like out of nowhere. Okay. So long story short, he, he wouldn't talk. And so he was doing art therapy and he made all these pictures and they lined the pictures up and it looked like an abstract.
[00:11:38] Sarah: Tongue with a fork in it. And so the therapist said to the parents, I don't know what's going on. And this is going to sound crazy, but it looks like an abstract tongue and an abstract fork and pain. I get like a painful vibe. So it turns out that the kid, the child was suffering from past trauma of stab, like accidentally stabbing themselves, like eating when they were younger with the [00:12:00] fork.
[00:12:00] Sarah: And so guess what? When it was brought to the boy's attention, he started to talk again. And he said,
[00:12:04] Kathleen: Wow. Wow.
[00:12:06] Kathleen: that is so interesting. That's I, I, I think back to my childhood. I had surgery on my arm when I was four and for about, A year to two years. I think after that I would always draw people with no arms. Mm-Hmm. when I was little because I, I guess there was trauma right around the surgery. butthat's, I, I just drew people with no arms and, and I mean, I didn't know consciously that I wasn't like, oh, here I am drawing people with no arms.
[00:12:33] Kathleen: But my, my mom actually pointed it out, was like, where are the arms? ? Yeah.
[00:12:39] Sarah: art helps people. That's how art that's how art brings people clarity. That's exactly it. You just hit the dail on the head there too. It's that when you're in it, you don't, you can't always see it. You don't
[00:12:52] Kathleen: Mm.
[00:12:52] Sarah: it. And that's why the tangible art piece is cool.
[00:12:55] Sarah: Because visual for you, it'sremoved and, and there's that distance and you're like, [00:13:00] ah, because when it's in here and here and here, you don't, you don't,
[00:13:04] Sarah: You forget about it. You
[00:13:05] Sarah: don't
[00:13:06] Kathleen: true. It's So, true.
[00:13:10] Sarah: yeah, it's cool.
[00:13:12] Kathleen: What, do you do if, you know someone becomes really emotionally overwhelmed during a session? What, what do you do?
[00:13:20] Sarah: so, Art therapists are really good at handling, obviously handling emotions. They're trained to deal with that. So it's, it's really good to allow for that to happen. And then using the actual art materials to, again, like I mentioned earlier, shrink it down to size, like just help reground, connect to the breath.
[00:13:39] Sarah: Just, just. get the emotions out, address what you need to do, and, and fixate on them for a while with the art materials. Right? Like, I'm feeling really sad. you know, can't stop crying okay, so, so cry and then just try a little bit of, of this, like, Oh, here, like, here's a piece of paper.
[00:13:56] Sarah: why don't you just, do you want to do some writing? maybe you just, Purge through words, or, [00:14:00] no, no, you can't, uh, you don't know where to, okay, so here's a paintbrush, just, just start painting, just start moving, sometimes you just have to take something else, it's like that redirection, safe, and then, almost hypnotism.
[00:14:13] Sarah: Hypnotic repetition. So doing repetitive stuff. So working within a Mandela would help to regain the focus and and bring you down and small space to focus, you know, ground you into the space. and to help shrink those emotions down to size.
[00:14:30] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Yeah, that is, that's such a, a, a, like a thoughtful way to say it. Like use, what are those emotions, right? Like not suppressing them. We
[00:14:39] Sarah: No. No, no, get
[00:14:41] Kathleen: like, how do we get it out?
[00:14:42] Sarah: Yeah. And then, and then redirect because they
[00:14:45] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:14:46] Sarah: this and then when you don't want someone driving or leaving later, you have to think about all that. you know, get them just into a really a better space at moving forward.there's.
[00:14:55] Sarah: That's it. This is life, right? Emotions aren't bad. Honestly,[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Kathleen: they're not. They're not bad. What, what, what are some common challenges that clients may face when they're starting art therapy? I know you've talked a little bit about there might be some apprehension, right? At the beginning of the story you gave us about, the gentleman that was of was angry and refused to do it at first.
[00:15:18] Kathleen: But what, what are some common challenges that clients may face?
[00:15:22] Sarah: I just, I feel like I have a repeat button. I'm on a loop. It's Groundhog Day every day for me. when it comes to getting people just like it, just please just open mind, just try it. I know like you don't need art. I'm always saying you don't need the art background. You really don't need the art experience.
[00:15:42] Sarah: That's where people really get hung up on. It's that to be honest, more than what they want to address or think they need to address. It's not those things. It's the actual hump getting over the hump of you don't have to be good at art. It is more than, Child's play. And yes, it might look childlike, [00:16:00] but I just say, just give it a chance because it's about the process and it's about how you can feel.
[00:16:04] Sarah: It's that stuff that you get out of it. That's the gold. Okay? I just always have to reinforce, what's in there, what's available to you. Try it. If you don't try it, you'll never know. I'm just on this, this button. I'm. I say all the time. It's, it's kind of funny. I can laugh about it now, but yeah, like, okay.
[00:16:21] Sarah: So my dementia clients, I, so I was doing, art for wellness in the dementia home for about 10 years and they, they, yeah, they, they would come in and it's, nope. This is what am I in? I'm not in, uh, element, you know, grade school. This is for kids. I said, no, it seems that way. I said, but I just want you to try it, so I'd have to be careful, never to supply them with, let's say, crayons, I would give them the sharpie markers, everything's methodical and thought out, it's like, give them certain materials that don't look like kid stuff, right?
[00:16:56] Sarah: So let's maybe bring some yarn, if some of them are knitters, or are [00:17:00] knitters, or bring in some, text, textured, textile stuff. if they were dressmakers or something, let's bring in some fabric. it's, you know, and tweaking or gardening or flowers or dirt or pots and pretend even that it's, it's for their home, let's make this flower pot and you can give take it home to your room or, or give it away as a gift.
[00:17:21] Sarah: To your granddaughter, your daughter, when they come to visit, and then it's getting them onto that and then coaxing them in that way. And then the, the, the artist as therapy is happening. So art for art's sake, they're just start creating and they're like, Oh, yeah. And we know there's more to it.
[00:17:37] Sarah: But to them, it's just right. Like they're like, Oh yeah, I'm making this for so and so. So it's being a little sneaky that way. and then all of a sudden it's like, well, thank you so much. This was great. I really enjoyed myself. Thank you. And like the mood coming in went from, let's say unhappy, a little negative, a little confused too.
[00:17:57] Sarah: I forgot they had dementia. They're leaving and it's [00:18:00] like, oh my gosh, I forgot you were sick. Just for a split second, it's like you're sharp as a whip. You're, you're, you're, yourself. Like, I feel like I see yourself coming out. Um, I told Sonia too, like, I'll do art games with them and it's mind blowing.
[00:18:15] Sarah: They'll come in. They don't know where they are. And then I'll do an art game with them, like draw, let's say a line or something. Apple! They'll yell out and it's like, it was an apple. It was going to be an apple. How'd you get that from that? And like, what? It's amazing. Yeah. And it's like, Oh, they're back.
[00:18:33] Sarah: there you are. And then they're like a level 10 for emotional expressionism. And they're like, so proud of themselves and up here and bouncing out of the room.
[00:18:46] Sonia: Has so many benefits. Like it has so many cognitive benefits, emotional benefits. It's incredible. That's amazing
[00:18:54] Sonia: Are you looking to reset your relationship with alcohol? Look no further than [00:19:00] our self paced seven day reset program. In just one week, you'll gain the tools and support you need to kickstart your journey to a healthier, more balanced lifestyle.
[00:19:10] Our program includes daily audio, helpful exercises, and guided reflections. And best of all, it's on your time. Head over to sistersinsobriety. substack. com and let's take that first step together towards a better you.
[00:19:24] Sonia: sarah, are there ways that we can incorporate specific art therapy exercises or techniques at home?
[00:19:32] Sarah: Yes. art journaling. So, you know, art journaling. So just get a journal, go to the dollar store, get a little journal, grab some old magazines or buy the five for, I forget where you can get a couple of them. I think it's Walmart or a couple of magazines or thrift stores. I love the old like life magazines from like, The sixties, uh, national geographics, right?
[00:19:54] Sarah: Like all these cool things, just get some hand me down magazines, newspapers, whatever, [00:20:00] even old photos go through whatever you're keeping in a box. What are you saving it for? Maybe you've got stuff, knickknacks you've saved little papers here and there and, and start a journal and, and don't force yourself.
[00:20:13] Sarah: To set out to do something, if it's not really there, like don't force yourself, to have a purpose or a theme. How about just start? Just start. And if you can't get yourself to just start, which I mean by just start would be cut and paste, like I told you. Ripping a picture cause you like it, put it down.
[00:20:31] Sarah: oh this speaks to me, I'm not sure why. Put it down, take whatever, just start, layer it like this doesn't have to be, look amazing. Doesn't have to look like something, just put it in there and it will become easier for you over time, more natural. And then maybe you can say I want to explore the theme of
[00:20:49] Sarah: Strength. What does that look like to you? let's grab pictures of strength. you can give yourself a word, let's say, and then just create with pictures under that [00:21:00] word or something. Start writing, then add pictures to your writing, um, and keep it, and then go back and look, give it some time, and then go back and see what you got, and then maybe you will see a theme.
[00:21:13] Sarah: Hey, how come I have, uh, like an elephant in all of this stuff? What does elephant Google it. I don't know. Strength, family. Right? Um, that's amazing. Okay. Or maybe, where are they native to? maybe you want to travel where there's elephants. And then just go take that theme.
[00:21:31] Sarah: I'm going to explore elephants and then let that unfold. And just let it unfold and happy surprise. Just let it, happen
[00:21:44] Kathleen: working with folks and especially as an art therapist, how do you? How do you measure success? I feel strange even saying the word success, because it will look obviously very different to people or progress. Yeah, or progress. How do you measure that?
[00:21:58] Sarah: Well, art therapists will do that [00:22:00] in it's it's mind, body, soul. It's observation. It's, it's asking the person it's seeing it in their art journey, I was working with this girl, um, and nothing was wrong. She just wanted to do art with me. Like she wanted to just do art for wellness sessions.
[00:22:15] Sarah: There was not anything she wanted to explore. She just, she liked art. And she wanted to do art with me. Right. So I would have her and then I would say, okay, um, why don't you start anyway, I don't know how to lead into this, but basically she would just use pencil and paper at first and was very tight and didn't show me much and would do like little drawings and doodles.
[00:22:38] Sarah: And then she, as time went on, we're seeing, uh, collage and then the collage moved to painting and then there's so much more color and she seemed more confident and, and bright. And, and it's like, Oh my gosh. And then she'd be bouncing into the sessions and it's like, okay, well, there's a measurement I'd say, based on how she's presenting, like this is working for her.
[00:22:59] Sarah: She's [00:23:00] enjoying this. she's getting something out of this and she's telling me that, in an art therapy session, let's say somebody's there for recovery and they're finding out maybe the root of why they turn to substances in the first place.
[00:23:14] Sarah: You know, what were they looking for that they weren't getting? Was it, is it more confidence? Was it, uh, to feel sexier and was it denial, hiding, escapism, safety? And, I don't know, that stuff just pops up. And then when, then you find it, you're like, well, that's successful. It's like, okay, we found the root.
[00:23:39] Kathleen: Right.
[00:23:41] Sarah: You know, let's address that root.
[00:23:43] Kathleen: Mm hmm. When, when you think about working with folks who are, in addiction recovery, we, we often use like mindfulness, uh, practices or even like physical exercise can be really excellent, for someone who's in recovery. [00:24:00] How does art therapy complement those other holistic approaches?
[00:24:04] Sarah: Yeah, it's just, it's a healing outlet.
[00:24:07] Sarah: And, and as we why it's so great is it addresses mind, body, soul. It does it all. That's why I'm a huge believer in making, or in the creative process in general is that, it helps you with your healing your mind. It helps you process emotions.
[00:24:23] Sarah: It helps you. Um, it's a physical thing. it's just because I've got a friend actually, who's a gym owner and she's big into fitness and now we're starting to work together because we're noticing that well, you can eat all the healthy things you want. You can exercise all you want, but if you're not dealing with your emotions.
[00:24:42] Sarah: If you're not processing your emotions in a healthy way, what good is that? it's all important. Mind, body, soul, right? And so art actually does all three, but it goes really nicely, fits in nice with the other,modalities and other outlets and yeah.
[00:24:58] Kathleen: [00:25:00] Exactly.
[00:25:00] Sonia: Sarah, so what resources or tools would you recommend for someone interested in exploring art therapy?
[00:25:06] Sarah: Yep. So, uh, finding an art therapist. So that's suitable to you. Like somebody who's maybe more spiritual or who's more maybe it's incorporating, going to a psychotherapist and asking for a referral to an art therapist and doing both, recommend both. and then doing just maybe a lighter recreational sort of art for wellness approach when you get farther down your journey.
[00:25:31] Sarah: Or something, and using that. so you can just search, search them out.
[00:25:36] Sarah: So the Canadian art therapy association. Website lists all of the art
[00:25:41] Kathleen: Art therapists. Okay, okay. And I would imagine that other countries have something hopefully similar, maybe not all of them, but I'm assuming the United States would as well. Yeah.
[00:25:52] Sarah: Yeah. They all have their own New Zealand, Australia. Yeah. And for like BC, like we also provincial, there's all different, [00:26:00] there's the Canadian art therapy, but then there's their Ontario and then each province too. So yeah. Yeah. Just Google.
[00:26:08] Kathleen: All right. Well, that's amazing. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us today. And you addedI know for me, at least I really am like, okay, I got to get down to doing some art and I used to speak so passionately about what you do. And you've convinced me for sure. There are so many benefits.
[00:26:26] Kathleen: Not that I needed convincing, but you've really, you are so passionate about the
[00:26:30] Sarah: Oh, good. I always say if I can, if I can inspire one person and I'm happy.
[00:26:35] Kathleen: Well, you definitely inspired one today. So thank you. And thank you for our listeners. Thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety today, and we will see you next week. [00:27:00]