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There are those in the spotlight, and then there is Everybody Else.
Hosted by Wes Luttrell (Indiana-based artist manager, development coach, and founder of Wally Opus Records), Everybody Else is a podcast dedicated to the invisible people who make music happen. Featuring solo commentary and insightful interviews with artist managers, record label execs, booking agents, tour managers, lawyers, music tech founders, music producers, venue managers, and a slew of others whom we'd consider to have the most interesting jobs in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:00)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:02)
Who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
Speaker 1 (00:06)
because we
So I started not in the music industry. was at a very corporate biotech healthcare company and had a part-time job at a radio station in Indianapolis. And I couldn't wait to get off of work on my bill-paying job, as I like to call it, to go to more of my passion job. And I was just like, how do I get this to become my full-time job? And is that even...
feasible. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:52)
This
was in your like what early 20s? This is right?
Speaker 1 (00:54)
College. Yeah. I, um, just a little bit of background on me, uh, from Indianapolis. I think we connected on the Indiana thing right away. Um, yeah, go Hoosiers. Uh, yeah. So I grew up in the Indianapolis area, went to IU, um, for undergrad, uh, majored in business marketing. Um, and I, I sort of, I played, I didn't play, but I, I helped out with the union, um, the union board. So they kind of brought in, you know, artists and, um, and all of that through.
through IU and kind of got the bug there. But again, it was always one of those things like, you I went to a massive high school sports as much as I love sports. You you had to be like Olympic material to play at my high school. So music was always kind of something that, you know, I was very much interested in, but, you know, it was more of just like a hobby. I, you know, I like discovering, you know, new artists, but, ⁓ but yeah, kind of.
fell to that as more of a hobby in high school and even in college ⁓ for that. ⁓
Speaker 2 (01:58)
Were you into music just as a listener or did you get involved at all? I DJed in high school, for example.
Speaker 1 (02:05)
Yeah. I, gosh, this is embarrassing, but I, was like 10 years old. I loved the band Hanson. I like had the biggest crush on Zach Hanson. And I was like, if I can play the drums like him, he will fall in love with me and marry me. And that was kind of like my first itch at the music thing. Like I loved to play the drums. Like that was like, that's still to this day.
my most memorable Christmas is when I got my drum set. So yeah, so music has always kind of been something that just very interested in, whether it's playing at first or even just like as a consumer too.
Speaker 2 (02:45)
Was your parents into music?
Speaker 1 (02:47)
Were you
a music Not really. remember my dad. So my parents, I'm a first generation American. My dad was born in Iran. My mom was born in England. But my dad went to school in England. So that's kind how they met. And then they both came over here. But yeah, they, mean, my mom loved her boy bands. Donny Osmond was like her, that was her guy. My dad loved the Beatles and kind of some of that classic,
Brit rock stuff. But yeah, so that was, know, I didn't really, I always loved music. I think my first album was like Third Eye Blind and Matchbox 20. And I was into like Backstreet Boys and all of that like cheesy stuff. But yeah, it was always a part of my life just as a fan.
I picked up guitar in high school and some of that stuff. it always felt like was, music was the one thing that was my escape.
Speaker 2 (03:50)
was gonna
say, it like public or was it more for you?
Speaker 1 (03:53)
More for me, I would say.
Speaker 2 (03:56)
What about college? go to college, did you get in parties or like... Because Bloomington, mean Secretly is in Bloomington, Secretly Canadian, there is a music scene of some kind in Bloomington.
Speaker 1 (04:00)
Yeah
Yeah, Bloomin'ton, yeah.
Yeah, I was more of like the consumer in college. ⁓ I knew I couldn't take my drum set. I would have roommates that would hate me. And so honestly, that's like I kind of had picked up guitar. ⁓ But yeah, I kind of I still was very much interested in like, you know, who's new and up and coming, like trying to like, you know, figure out new bands or singers that I was interested in. And, you know, my friends always came to me when they, you know, wanted to.
you know, hear about who's next and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:46)
It's interesting because I think that is a skill or something. There's an instinct to people who can hear things and, or it's like taste maybe, that's probably the word.
Speaker 1 (04:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd be the one that was burning the CDs of the mixtapes and distributing them out to friends and stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:03)
So you're working biotech, you're working at a radio station. Yeah. Where do we go next? How do we get into...
Speaker 1 (05:10)
Yeah, so let me back up a tad. So I did not like country music in high school. I thought, you know, country music was twangy. It was,
Speaker 2 (05:23)
to like it at your school?
Speaker 1 (05:26)
No,
it wasn't. It was like, was like, I was like, my screen name in high school was like Grateful Dead 1005. Like I, like I was very much like, I did not want anything to do with country music. ⁓ and then, you know, going to school in Southern Indiana for college, ⁓ just living in the dorm rooms, I kind of couldn't get away from it. And it was like one of those things, like I, the lyrics alone, that, that is what drew me in for sure.
I think it was like, was almost sick of like the, you know, songs that lacked substance and, know, I'd hear like a rascal thought song or something that like, you know, would remind me of home or whatever it was. And I was like, wow, this like, this made me feel something. And it's actually not that twangy. And it was like, I started to like become obsessed with it in a sense. Like I know my first, like Taylor Swift, I'm, you know,
glorified Swiftie. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, yeah, yeah. Since like 2006, that was, you know, when I went to college. But yeah, it was, it was like one of those things. Like I was just, I became so obsessed with the songwriting piece a bit and the storytelling and the Twangy stuff was kind of going away. So, and it was like one of those things, like, you know, in high school, like I loved deep diving into the music piece and, but country was not even on my radar. Like I liked like Johnny Cash and
Speaker 2 (06:27)
on your Instagram.
Speaker 1 (06:54)
Elvis and some of those, know, just more of like the rock country stuff. But there was this whole genre that I knew nothing about and became like obsessed with it. Like my friends to this day, they were like, yeah, like the girl that hated country music now like works in country music. So yeah, just giving you that context. But, yeah, so through college, like, you know, I have a younger sister, she's like eight years younger than me, which back then was a big difference, but
Speaker 2 (07:11)
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:23)
we related on the Taylor Swift level. Like, yeah, we would go to her concert together. And so it was kind of like, not only that, but it was just like, it was, what's the word for it? I just felt like the community with it. ⁓ so yeah, so I graduated ⁓ and got the job at the big biotech company that was at Roche diagnostics. ⁓ There, there's still, yeah. So my dad actually works there, still works there. ⁓
Speaker 2 (07:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
at.
Speaker 1 (07:53)
in IT. And so I had interned there pretty much every summer, you know, ⁓ paid very well, but it, you know, it's just like one of those things. I think if you're spending that much time doing something like I was so much, I, I didn't care about the money as much as I did about the passion. ⁓ just because, you know, time is so, so precious if you're spending, you know, 50 plus hours a week on it, like you want it to feel impactful. And what I was doing was just not that. So,
So yeah, so I was cold emailing a girl from the radio station and ⁓ she went to IU actually. That was like, did, you know, I did my stalker research. You know, how do I get in with this girl? Her name's Lisa for anyone that's curious. works at, well, she used to work at Hank FM, but, but yeah, I emailed her and I ended up going to a concert that Hank FM was a part of and like asked around like,
Do you know Lisa? is Lisa here by chance? And she was there and I was like, Hey, ⁓ I've emailed you a couple of times. You know, I'm not looking to, you know, like get paid. Like I just, I just would love to help out. I did some of the stuff at IU. Like I know you went to IU as well. She was like, email me again and I'll get back to you. I promise. And I'm like, okay, this is it. So she didn't get back to me.
She offered me a part-time gig. ⁓ was like event-based social media, ⁓ which was like, I'm a marketing background. ⁓ that's kind of where that started. And I did that for three years. ⁓
Speaker 2 (09:32)
This
is in like, like the late, this is in like early 2010.
Speaker 1 (09:35)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I started there in like 2011. so yeah, so I was, you know, still trying to, I was very early in my career, ⁓ just trying to figure it out. ⁓ and you know, she had, she had given me the opportunity. So I literally like, was working 80 hours a week because any waking moment that I had, like all my weekends, you know, a lot of the things that I did for them were on the weekends, which obviously I was open for, but
you know, that's when I knew I'm like, okay, I'm getting like minimum wage for this and I'm literally spending every waking moment like, you know, of my free time doing these things. Like how can I make this like a full-time thing? ⁓ So I met a bunch of people through that job that lived in Nashville that worked at record labels because when you are, you know, when you're at a radio station, your salespeople are the labels. They're trying to
sell their artists song so that you will play it on the radio. So I was meeting a lot of those people and they were all in Nashville. And I remember one of them, his name is Alex Valentine. I was like, how do I get your job? And he was like, let's talk. He was like, I'm, I'm, you know, super busy right now, but I want to talk to you about this. And basically had an hour long conversation with him while I was at my full time job during the week. And he was like, you know what? You got to be present to win.
So this was, I want to say it was like a year into this radio thing. ⁓ And you must be present to win. Like that sort of became my, okay, I've got to figure out how to get to Nashville. know, ⁓ whatever it took at that point. Like I was telling you, I'm a first generation American. So everything like that I've done, I've had to work for myself. you know, I paid for my own college.
all those sorts of things. So I'm like, it was very daunting and scary for me to like leave this like well-paying job.
Speaker 2 (11:36)
Were your parents supportive?
Speaker 1 (11:38)
my mom, yeah, my mom was very supportive. I don't want to say that my dad wasn't supportive, but my dad knew how great my job was. And you know, he was like, are you sure you want to do this? Like you're going down there without a job. Like, know, what are you doing? So, and obviously now he's like, ⁓ you know, best decision ever. Like, I'm so glad that you did that. Like, I'm so proud of you. But like he, there was that, you know, parental, like I'm worried.
Speaker 2 (11:40)
And like what, why are you?
That's it.
Speaker 1 (12:05)
It's not going to work out. yeah, so I essentially, moved to Nashville in 2014. So I had, you know, kind of just been saving up money, trying to out, yeah, kind of trying to figure out, like, you know, because I actually moved in back in with my parents after college to, you know, to afford, you know, the move. um,
But yeah, I moved in 2014. I had a mentor at Roche actually that was like, you know, he, I kind of went through this whole spiel with him and he was like, what's stopping you? And I was like, honestly, like just having enough money to like support myself, you know, paying off my college loans. Um, and what if it doesn't work out? And he was like, you're always going to have bills. You're always going to have something that's going to be lingering. Like you're always going to have something that you're going to be worried about paying off. He was like, just go.
So, um, so yeah, so I made the move in 2014, Alex Valentine, who, um, who I was telling you about from the record label who said, you know, must be present to win. He, he worked at big machine and that is where I found my first job in Nashville. So that's kind of what, what kicked off like the full time, you know, music business type of career.
Speaker 2 (13:26)
Isn't it amazing how I think anybody who does what you did has somebody in this moment that recognizes the opportunity. It's like, gotta go. Go.
Speaker 1 (13:36)
Yeah, it's now. Just for
it. Yeah. And even for me, it was like, okay, I was, you know, early twenties at the time. I'm like, if I don't do this now, I'm never going to do it. And I'm always going to wonder what if, like it was almost like the what if is worse than actually doing it and failing to me. yes. And like, I don't know. I even drive to work sometimes even now. And I'm like, this is exactly what I manifested.
And it's such a weird, you know, it's such a weird but amazing feeling. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:13)
Does that feeling come up a lot?
Speaker 1 (14:15)
⁓ in the beginning for sure. Cause I think it was like a bit of like imposter syndrome. am I really doing this? You ⁓ but I still have those moments, you know, when I, cause my commute has kind of, I've always lived on the west side of Nashville. So I'm always like, you know, taking 40 into the city and you know, I remember when I switched jobs from big machine to Sony, was like, okay, I'm going this, you know, I still like, it still brought me back to like, wow, I'm really doing this. Like this is, know,
So yeah, it was humbling though at first, know, going from trying to quit a job in corporate America that, you know, has great benefits and all these things and then coming here with essentially nothing. yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:56)
What happens when you get into big machine at that time? was your role or what was your...
Speaker 1 (15:01)
So it was on the marketing team. ⁓ I came in around 1989 for Taylor. Taylor was, and so this kind of circles around to the whole music business thing. Like me being an outsider, I'm like, my gosh, big machine. That's where Taylor was not. Like obviously like I'm a Swiftie. I know I got to keep my composure about that stuff. You know, I'm working at our record label, but also like, I don't even know if I would have realized that
Big Machine was even a thing or that even like even just the music industry itself was somewhere that I could have a career without Taylor Swift, which sounds so cliche to say, but I mean, I'm like one of those people that buys a CD if I'm like the super fan at midnight, you know, I'm going through the liner notes. I'm reading every single thing, you know, like those sorts of things. And I remember Big Machine Records, Nashville, Tennessee, seeing that stuff. So I don't even know if I would have had the
just the industry knowledge without that piece either. But yeah, so I came in to help with YouTube takedowns for 1989. It was, yeah, I had like DMC they're called like DMCA or D yeah, DCMA. Don't quote me on that. Okay. But it's essentially like, you know, you as a record label can report these links as copy.
Speaker 2 (16:08)
It was manual.
Speaker 1 (16:25)
Copyright and they are forced to take them down. So they were like YouTube video people got really smart about it Like it was one of those things like I'd see tweets like, you know, I can't find Taylor's album anywhere online Like I have to buy this is the first CD I've bought in like 10 years or whatever Because you couldn't rip it online anywhere and that was kind of what gave me a job at first. Yeah Yeah, so
Speaker 2 (16:47)
I would have never thought, at the time too, it's like we're coming out of, or we're trying to legitimize online music as an industry. of course this role is on.
Speaker 1 (16:58)
Yeah,
this was like before like Spotify really was Spotify was definitely a thing then but like I was looking at iTunes charts and things like that like we don't look at any of that stuff anymore. It's you know, it's it's a lot it was then a lot of like album sales and you know, she had like 1.2 million the first week and it was a lot of you know, 24 seven support of making sure everything was taken down and was it a big office?
Speaker 2 (17:25)
at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:26)
Yeah, I think, I don't know how many people they had. There was like six people in the marketing department at the time. And then, you know, they had a bunch of interns and things like that. But the company as a whole, I mean, I would say at least like 50 people.
Speaker 2 (17:43)
Okay. don't even know how long Big Machine was around before Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1 (17:48)
She was one of the first three artists. was like Jack Ingram, Taylor and Danielle Peck. And you know, obviously Taylor ⁓ made her, made the name for herself, but yeah, I didn't end up starting until the 1989 era. So she was already kind of at the top of her game then, ⁓ but yeah, it was even interesting then. I think, you know, outsider looking in, like you think the record label is like where everything is like there's, know,
There's actually a whole management team. have like an age, a tour agent that plans out your tour. it's, it's all, you know, a publisher that handles your songwriting Pete. Like it is so much more than just the record label, which I think, you know, was definitely something I did not understand.
Speaker 2 (18:34)
taking
all of this in for the first time really on like a experiential level that like. And so at that time with iTunes being what it was, the big machine was distributing through Universal. Okay, so then, but was Taylor coming into the office ever or was?
Speaker 1 (18:46)
universe.
Oh no. Nope. I never saw her on the office once. I'm sure she did it first. I remember seeing her stuffing her radio single in envelopes at the office and doing all that stuff. that would have been 2006. I got there in 2014.
Speaker 2 (19:10)
I was curious from like at this moment in your career when you're just getting in, what are people, what are like mentor type people, are people higher up in the company? Was anybody like noticing you and saying things, like kind of like giving you feedback on like, hey keep doing this, you're doing good, or like focus more on this, or was people kind of paving a way for you to continue that growth even when you were getting in, or people giving you feedback on like recognizing you as like,
Speaker 1 (19:36)
percent.
Speaker 2 (19:38)
Honestly, like a talent within the music business side of things.
Speaker 1 (19:41)
Yeah. Yeah. Kelly Rich was my, fortunately my boss at the time. ⁓ and you know, still to this day, I think I learned so much from her, but, but I think, you know, I'm never going to be like, ⁓ like, look what I did. Like, you know, I've never been that sort of person. I love to just like absorb everything and quietly figure it out and then bring it to you when I've, when I've, know,
found it. So I, you know, I was brought on for that, but then it kind of ended up turning into like, you know, I, I saw that they weren't doing this. I, you know, came to her and I was like, what, what about this? And she kind of, I think the beauty of work, like starting my career and at an independent record label is that there was no like red tape. There's no like corporate policies or, you know,
Sony secure things that, yeah, it was kind of just like, you can dream it and then figure it out. Yeah. And I think Scott's motto was always like, start it crazy and work backwards. ⁓ So you kind of, I kind of got the luxury of going in with that mindset and not having, you know, the corporate pillars of like, this is what you do. This is what you do. I was figuring out in real time, like, you know, even with the YouTube thing, I don't know if you remember this, but
Speaker 2 (20:47)
Huh, interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:04)
there's like nightcore, like versions of songs on YouTube. And it's like, they, it's, I don't know. It's like anime type stuff, like not my world, but like, as I was discovering this stuff, you know, doing the takedowns for Taylor, ⁓ I discovered it, but you can like adjust the sound speed. So what people were doing, they were putting the full album out there and like, if they put it at the normal speed, it would have, you know,
been detected by content ID or whatever. But once you tweak with the sound speed, then there's no way for it to really be picked up. they were making these versions, these night core quote unquote versions. Like even today you can go up and look like, you know, type in a song named night core and stuff will come up. I'm sure of it. But, ⁓ but yeah, I was, I was finding those. And if you like turn the knob to like two times or negative 0.5 or what it'll, it'll literally tell you in the description.
to listen to it normally, click on this speed and you click on the YouTube player for whatever speed it directs you to and you listen to the full album like nothing was even tweaked. crazy. Could you? Yes. Okay. But they weren't like, we had some, yeah, you have to find them. Yeah. Yeah. They weren't like automatically like flagged for us. So it was just like, it was cool for me to just.
Speaker 2 (22:16)
Take down the night core version.
Speaker 1 (22:30)
be able to immerse myself in everything and just find stuff. I don't know. I'm very glad. I feel like all of my career points when I've made a shift, there's always been something that I've learned that's helped me on my next path.
Speaker 2 (22:51)
At what point do you start, we start progressing through the ranks, if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:56)
So, so obviously, you know, Taylor was against the streaming thing for a while that kind of gave me that sort of position. ⁓ but then once you get on streaming, you know, that sort of eliminates the need for, for that sort of role that wasn't, you know, that was sort of supposed to be a temporary thing. And I wasn't hired on full time until I want to say, I want to say it was like maybe like February, I started in like November ish, like
early December and then got hired on full time like a few months later. But at that point they had, you know, like an online store, didn't have anyone really helping it or running it. And I kind of just made that my thing and figured out, you know, how do we, how do we move this product or how do we, you know, ⁓ do a special promotion for this artist on this pro, you know, whatever that looked like. ⁓
Speaker 2 (23:50)
Before
you got involved, was it just sitting there and waiting on inbound from?
Speaker 1 (23:53)
Yup.
there was actually an e-commerce like fulfillment center that was doing that role. And the guy that was helping with that had actually was leaving as I was kind of coming into big machine. So they ended up firing the, ⁓ the merge fulfillment place at that time and he was out the door. So it was kind of like, okay, there's this opportunity for me to help them figure this out. So they moved all the product back to the big machine warehouse here.
And I learned a lot about Shopify, you know. But even like in that time, like we had help and stuff too. It wasn't like it was all on me, but I was able to even pick up just like, know, Kelly, my boss, you know, let me run with some of the YouTube stuff just because I'd been so immersed on that platform and, ⁓ you know, just the social side of it, just from my experience at the radio station. ⁓
Speaker 2 (24:46)
Cause like at this time, social media is like budding. It's just like coming really, Facebook was around, I know, but like Instagram is like budding. YouTube's established, I guess, in mid 2010s, but like you're still, it's like a new.
Speaker 1 (25:01)
Yeah, we were trying to convince people to get Instagram accounts, like just to reserve their handle. Yeah. now it's like, that's a no brainer. You have to have that like checkbox.
Speaker 2 (25:06)
Yeah
Yeah, I was curious like to fast forward and go back but like if an artist comes in today and says I don't want to do social media, is that an option or is that like if they say I don't want to do social media? I want to be mysterious or I want to be... Can you build a career without social media?
Speaker 1 (25:30)
⁓
Speaker 2 (25:33)
You know, it's cliche to say it's all about who you know, but in the music industry, it is all about who you know. It's true. But what if you make great music, you got all the connections in the local scene, but your music's just sitting idly on DSPs like Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, it's just chilling there, like a bobber floating in the middle of ocean, just lonely, just sitting there waiting on something to bite. If you want to make a bigger splash, it's time to begin partnering with the people who can help you get your music heard.
insert my friends at Symphonic Distribution. Frankly, not all digital distributors are built the same. And as a new artist, Symphonic gives you the opportunity to get started using their platform to get your music out there and become familiar with their tools as a paid subscriber through a starter pack. With the starter pack, you'll retain 100 % of your royalties for the low yearly fee of $19.99.
But really that's just the beginning because as your project grows, so too can your connection with the team, the real people and the resources offered to you by Symphonic. ⁓ it must have been about a year and a half ago. I set up my first release through a starter pack on Symphonic on behalf of one of the artists on my label, which is trying out something new back then. And I soon realized I had some connections within the distributor. And after a few emails and an introduction through a fellow artist friend who was using Symphonic.
we became a quick partner and now we partner with them regularly on our Wally Opus releases with our client manager, Lee Griffin, who was featured on episode three of the podcast. And we've grown a connection with the rest of their marketing department who are actively pitching our music to curators from all across different DSPs like Apple, Spotify, and Amazon Music. So if you're a new artist and you want to get involved, head to Symphonic.com and sign up for a starter pack.
Using the code word everybody else at checkout will get you 25 % off your first year. It's a little something to get you into the door and please let them know Wes sent me. Look, it's daunting to set out in pursuit of building a music career in 2025, but it becomes easier as you meet the right people. I would know I'm building all of my record label podcast and coaching service right here in Southern Indiana. So I've had to really branch out and get my people and perhaps your journey and finding the right people.
begins by joining Symphonic. Thank you to Symphonic for sponsoring this episode. And now back to the show.
Can you build a career without social media?
Speaker 1 (27:59)
In today's age? No. I mean, it can't be done. Yes, I'm sure. But it would be extremely difficult. Like I can't work harder than the artist wants to work in that sense. ⁓ I just feel like just the way the consumers are now, it's, where do you find out news on socials? Where do you hear new songs on socials? Like you're not turning on your radio. ⁓
Speaker 2 (28:21)
I'm sorry.
Sometimes,
but it's like discovery.
Speaker 1 (28:29)
Yeah, it's
just to like, you know, have some background. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I just think the way that consumers are now, if you're not on socials, someone else is going to be. Yeah. So, know, it's I personally would prefer not to work with artists if they don't value that piece of their career. And I know, you are you are so talented, you know, you
Yes, you probably don't want to be on social media, but you have to at least understand what it does for your career.
Speaker 2 (29:05)
Yeah, yeah, I've been kind of thinking about it is like when a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did the tree fall like that like old thing I Butchered it just him but like I kind of think about that with like real life now I'm thinking okay if it happens in real life, but you didn't post it. Yeah, the world know that it even happened Right you could tell the story and still that's great. Yeah, I think of like just building a career sharing this
Speaker 1 (29:28)
And it's actually getting even harder. Um, I feel like we're in the era right now of like, it's not social media. It's like interest media. It's like, um, so when you're on Instagram, obviously tick tock, I think kind of spearheaded all this stuff, but they're feeding you what they think you want to see versus who you follow. you know, I can tout like I have, you know, 7 million followers, but if only, you know,
Speaker 2 (29:37)
⁓ What do mean by that?
Speaker 1 (29:58)
a hundred thousand people see that piece of content, are your followers really that valuable? know, if you, for me, like it's like, it's quality versus quantity. Yes. These, you know, these tech platforms, these social media platforms are going to want you to be super active and, on their platform as much as possible. But, ⁓ I also feel like there's, there's a happy medium that you have to, you know,
for your own sanity abide by and ⁓ yeah, and be very intentional about what you're posting as well. ⁓ You know, if I like four dog videos in a row, my entire feed is gonna just feed me dog videos. ⁓ You know, if I like one thing or share one video to someone, like I notice, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when digital ads started targeting you based on your like,
your browser history kind of freaked you out. Like it's kind of like that, just for so like socials have kind of grown into that era now too.
Speaker 2 (31:02)
That's funny. I noticed you're like exactly right. don't, I don't like or share stuff that I don't want to see more of. Even if I did like it, I don't interact. Cause I know that if I do, my feed will be flooded with this. So how do you advise artists today to speak to an interest media more than a social media? Like what is it? Is kind of the same? It would just be, you know I mean?
Speaker 1 (31:27)
Yes,
I think it's hard. So what I try and do is just, you know, we have, I think the great thing about this day and age is we have data that tells us things. You know, ⁓ even like, I love that from like, you know, the CD sales world, you, you weren't getting like track individual, you know, details about that until iTunes came around. And then now we have streaming, you know, I think with every shift in social media, like there's something that you can learn from it. Right. So like, I think like,
Luke Holmes, for example, you he started on Vine. ⁓ He did a lot of cover videos and he is an artist who can literally like, he might not have the quote unquote look, but he can out sing anybody. Put them against literally anybody and he can out sing them. So that is kind of, you know, he started out with the covers. He did a Teddy Swims cover, you know, a couple of months ago, ⁓ just at his house and you know,
Speaker 2 (32:18)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:25)
That was one of his best posts and, you know, at least, you know, that half of the year.
Speaker 2 (32:32)
Yeah, it's funny that that's like me and my wife were just talking about this the other day. I'm like, Luke Holmes is an artist where like the Alex Warren collab from Lullabooz. I'm like, we listened to that song because we like Alex Warren. I'm like, ⁓ and when, when the song first came on, I thought it was Alex Warren for a second singing and I'm like, ⁓ shit, that's Luke Holmes singing. And he like, but his covers, Fast Car obviously being another one, but like they, they like,
They're his own, he does them, yeah, because he does them so well, they feel like originals in like a new way or something, you know?
Speaker 1 (33:05)
That Alex Warren thing was actually like my first like aha moment. Like I've had many of them since I've started over at Makewake, but like that I'm in, in the right place. I'm where I should be. So we were in the studio. And you know, I was just kind of asking him like, you know, what's your plan for Lala? Like he's been, you know, this year has really just been festivals and all genre festivals. He's, know, he wanted to be, he's like the first guy country.
Speaker 2 (33:17)
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:34)
singer that's done, you know, headline, Lollapalooza, headline, Bonnaroo, all of these, you know, different, all genre festival. ⁓ you know, which I think is awesome because we're in this age now where like country music is actually is cool. You know, they're not running from it. Like I was in high school. ⁓ and so I just had kind of asked him like, you know, like,
Speaker 2 (33:40)
Yeah.
It is.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:55)
Are you bringing anyone out? Like any special guests? Like what are your plans? ⁓ And he had had a couple people in mind. But I remember looking at the roster or the lineup for the, you know, the, the show that he was on and saw that Alex Warren was playing. And I just kind of pitched it just like, you know, ordinary is like the hottest song right now. Like it is like my, my cousin, you know, she's like in elementary school or, you know, junior high, like she's like that young demo. she literally like,
listens to that song on repeat. And that's how I had heard the song. You know, I wasn't too familiar with him, but he's, know, obviously big on social media. So I was like, you know, just from like a expanding your audience, like, you know, all of these things, you know, social media is a way to expand your audience. Like, you know, what would make the most sense for him? And this Alex Warren song, you know, came to mind. I pitched a, he knew who Alex Warren was, but he didn't seem super like he
Speaker 2 (34:48)
Had he heard this song before?
Speaker 1 (34:54)
definitely didn't have the song memorized. It was something that he would have to learn. But he was into it. I was there with his creative director as well and worked with him for years just on the Sony side. And he was like, yeah, you should really do this. He was kind of like, we got to do this type of thing. So he definitely went to bat for it too.
Speaker 2 (35:14)
It's funny, you hear in the record, you can hear, or like in the recording, like it feels like it's like on the front edge of like innovation of collaboration or something. Like when Alex Roran comes, or like when he starts singing everybody's like, oh shit, here we go. Like you can hear the audience coming alive, like, oh, whoa.
Speaker 1 (35:33)
And that too, was also like, okay, like, you know, before I even like said anything about it, I'm like, is he going to think it's weird? Like, cause Alex was performing like literally the set time right before Luke came out and he was ending with ordinary. it was like, is Luke going to think this is weird that I'm pitching this cause he's just going to, but I'm like, no. Cause in my mind it was like, this was more than just a surprise guest of this set. Like how do you make Lollapalooza like beyond just the attendees at Lollapalooza?
you know, no one even realized that, you know, that he just played that song, you know, his own set, you know? ⁓ so that's why Luke starts out with it. He was like, I know you guys probably just heard this, you know, a little bit ago, but we, thought it'd cool to do it, you know? well, it's, mean, I can't even take all the credit. It was just even from like that idea conception to like seeing, you know, he had band rehearsals and you know,
Speaker 2 (36:18)
Great idea. Yeah.
But still,
Speaker 1 (36:32)
Cappy had to figure out if Alex was even into it and all of those things. So, yeah, it's definitely big team effort for sure. But just to see that, I mean, come to life and like, I never in my wildest dreams, like would have thought that it would have become this moment like it, like it did. that they would be putting it out on DSPs and, know, this, I think it's got like 17 million views on TikTok right now or something like crazy. Like,
Speaker 2 (36:54)
guys.
It was like my first, just got into, I've been really into Apple Music and I just like, like the user experience to me is like really enjoyable as somebody who works in music too, because I can go down the cat or I can go down the credits and all this stuff. And then I just had subscribed again to Apple Music and it was like up in the suggested stuff. I'm like, what is this? And bam, it's a great song. Great idea.
Speaker 1 (37:27)
Sounds
awesome. Yeah. I mean, like we said earlier, Luke can, Luke can sing anything. He could sing the phone book. Um, so he, makes it easy for all of us, but, but yeah, it was, it was just cool to see like something kind of come from like idea conception to like what it did. Um, and I think that's something like me being on the label side, like typically when I get involved, it was like, the song is done here. This is a song that we're putting out. These are the, you know, we need ideas from you on, you know,
Speaker 2 (37:33)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:57)
on that sort of thing. it was just kind of cool to one thing I've just learned. I've just been able to make a little bit more impact on, you know, on those sorts of things, just kind of being closer to it earlier in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of just, mean, even just from the touring aspect, ⁓ you know, when you're, when you're on the management side, it's, you're touching everything at that point versus just the music.
Speaker 2 (38:10)
Like earlier in the... ⁓
So jumping over to your major label experience at Sony, you were director of digital strategy. like in that role, what were your responsibilities like in terms of the actual work? Were you managing a team? Were you involved really heavily? Like someone brings you a song. What are the conversations? What was your sort of?
Speaker 1 (38:51)
a bit all over the place because I think I started there. So I worked at Big Machine until 2017 and then I made the switch over to Sony. ⁓ So when I first came on board, like we weren't really talking about TikTok. Like it was, I very much was a digital project manager, I would say. Like I had like a portion of the roster that anything that fell under the digital marketing spectrum, like I was overseeing. ⁓ So, you know, whether that's
website digital ad campaigns like digital partner opportunities ⁓ Any sort of like fan engagement initiatives that was sort of you know my lane in that aspect ⁓ There was a point where you know, I did have a team under me ⁓ We kind of had like more like support staff that helped with like creative assets and things like that ⁓ and then you know my sort of my last role before I made the move over to make wake was you know
helping out with like the fan engagement piece and you know audience growth and you know ⁓ working more like with like the digital partners to bring opportunities to our artists you know with like a meta or a tick tock or ⁓ you're like a creator influencer or you know whatever that looks like.
Speaker 2 (40:02)
Yeah.
What is your relationship in that role back at Sony? Your relationship as head of digital is mostly with these platforms, social platforms, similar to like a distributor, like in the distributor, they're in cahoots with DSPs. But you're like, what are you talking about to them? Like, what are you, you're saying we got a new song coming out, this artist is coming up, here's the plan.
Speaker 1 (40:33)
Yeah, it's sort of like, you know, like we had a, our sales or I think they technically they're called commercial partnerships now, but ⁓ like they, they're the ones that are pitching to like the DSPs about like, you know, here's our, you know, music album release plan or whatever that looks like here are the, the marketing temples. We were kind of doing that same thing, but to the digital partners, you know, it's like those accounts. So, and they would, they would tell us about opportunities within the platforms, whether it was.
whether it was, you know, a new feature or something. Yeah. ⁓ like I know like tick tock shop is that was leaving. They were really pushing that. ⁓ and for us it's like, okay, this is great. Tick tock shop. Like, you know, if if you guys are pushing that piece of your platform, like let's do album pre-orders, let's do these sorts of things with it. But you know, when you dig in, like they're kind of, I mean, tick tocks wanting you to be on their platform as long as possible. So, you know, ⁓ they're
sort of wanting to become like the Amazon built into TikTok in a sense, you know, I'm sure you've noticed that if you're, if you're on TikTok at all, but, ⁓ they have rules, like you can't do pre-order items. have to like fulfill within like a three day period. it's like they're, were kind of making it impossible for us to do those sorts of things. So yeah, that was kind of like, as I was leaving Sony, ⁓ these were the big, they were pushing those, know, those sort of new features, which are great in theory, but.
If you have all these, you know, specifications that we can't work within, it makes it hard to use your product.
Speaker 2 (42:07)
It's interesting because like at those, I mean, you're in it. So I don't know if you can even see like how at that level, like the coll, like they're incentivized for you guys to put them on the map with these new things. And then you're like, yeah, we need the, like, that's how we're going to connect with our people. And then there's like, and then there's everybody else who's like, what do they do? Like what's going on? Because I always think of like majors as not being innovators. I always think of majors as being like, we watch what goes on and then we like,
We like elevated or something. But when it comes to that stuff, you're literally on the front lines. Because they're like, we have this new thing coming out and we really need your help to get it seen.
Speaker 1 (42:37)
very
It almost felt like they like use our artists as guinea pigs too. And I'm not, you know, I'm obviously great friends with a lot of these like, you know, partners that I work with at the accounts, but like, it's almost like, okay, we have this new feature that we think is going to be great. Like can your artists use this? And it could flop or it could not. mean, we don't know until you get these bigger accounts using the, you know, these new features or tools or whatever they're offering us, but.
Speaker 2 (43:05)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:16)
They're also, you know, under the mindset where they want people to stay on their platform as long as possible. They want them to be the guinea pig to test all these new features and, know, and they're also going to control who sees your content. it's kind of, yeah, it's, it's crazy. Cause like, you know, with like a streaming service, you are, you know, getting paid on those listens and things like that. Like usually with these, you know, label deals, it's like a licensing fee to like use.
any of the Sony catalog or whatever, whatever that looks like versus like getting paid per usage or whatever. know, you know what I mean? So, ⁓ so yeah, it's, it's been fun. I've, I've never been stagnant at anything because I feel like as soon as I learned something, they change it,
Speaker 2 (44:00)
Yeah,
oh yeah, that's so true. Being on the front lines of it, is not a... I don't know if I was talking to you about that, when Cain, didn't Cain Brown, Cain Brown did something with Meta glasses or something? I like he was like, did a promo with...
He bought them. okay, okay, okay. Because I was curious, like how much of your job with like digital strategizing is invented versus like discovered? Like, you know, like we're going to create this strategy or is it like, hey, this seems to be working. Let's like amplify this and like try to cross more artists.
Speaker 1 (44:39)
Yeah, I'm trying to think. I mean, for us, it's kind of been like, I don't know, like, for example, like I'll have like a meeting with like Metta and they'll tell us about, know, we have this new unlock feature, like unlock real feature where you can put in a passcode and only people that know your passcode can view the real. And so I'm like, my like my mind is spinning. Like, I'm like, okay, we can use this for like a tour presale or, know,
How can we utilize this? it's, you know, to me, it's like a cool, like, how do we get back to the fan sort of feature, like make them feel special or like they have some insider knowledge. ⁓ But then they're like, well, this is still like, you know, really early in beta. Like we're just, you know, prioritizing these right now with like the more like the A list acts. So it's kind of like, you know, it limits you in that sense, I guess. And, you know, they, I feel like they have been better about hearing feedback.
Speaker 2 (45:26)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:37)
you know, like, cause they hear from us all day, like, Hey, this, this feature isn't working or something's happening with this or why did the sound get blocked on this video or whatever it is. you know, they're, they're definitely getting hit from all angles ⁓ on their end too. But, ⁓ but yeah, I feel like it depends on the platform, but it's a mixture of both. that answers the question.
Speaker 2 (45:59)
I know, because I remember talking to you about seeing the crew from Twister came out during a Luke Combs concert and like chugged a beer on stage or something like that. And you were explaining like that, I think you were explaining something about like that was just something that like started kind of happening during the shows. And then it was like, well, we should do this every show. And then it comes like this moment.
And that like the like certain ones of them blow up on socials if it's like this with this specific thing Yeah, with that one it could be a collaboration with the film. Yeah, which at the time was also blowing up. Yeah
Speaker 1 (46:32)
Yeah, no, that one. So they had like the, that was at the MetLife show in New York. ⁓ but they did like, I think the movie had come out that Friday or it was coming out the following Friday or it was really close to being released at that point or whenever it was. ⁓ they had just on the premiere at the stadium, they let the whole band and crew watch. Wow. that Thursday before the Friday show or whatever. ⁓ so.
Speaker 2 (46:53)
⁓
Speaker 1 (46:58)
All the, some of the cast was in town for that. So, you know, he's, he's done that beer, you the shotgun moment for it had been a while at that point, but it was kind of just like, you know, as special guests come in, like he kind of picks, you know, who will come out and do the shotgun with him. So that was, you know, a no brainer there, but yeah, that one, that one blew up.
Speaker 2 (47:18)
Yeah, I saw that one. I don't always see things. I saw that one. Are artists generally like Lou Combs, bigger artists, are they generally like, wouldn't say open to like commercial collaborations, like collaborations like that where it's like, there is another side of like another person's benefiting from the collaboration. It still has to probably feel authentic or like something interesting that he's like into. But are artists generally open to those?
You know, like those are kind of like commercial leaning.
Speaker 1 (47:51)
I
guess it depends. mean, I know with the Oklahoma song, like they wrote that song for that soundtrack specifically. So it wasn't like, you know, the Atlantic people that did the soundtrack, like had all these songs in the can and they like picked his, like it was intentionally written for that, you know, that soundtrack. I'm sure they gave him, you know, some ideas or whatever they were wanting it to feel and sound like, but you know, he wrote it with that in mind, you know, that it was going to be for this movie.
⁓ And I think you can hear it when you listen to song.
Speaker 2 (48:24)
Yeah,
it feels still true. ⁓ When you were at Sony, the incentives for like, well, let me just say, I read on Makewakes website, fans first. What does that mean? Or what does that
Speaker 1 (48:41)
That's kind of been just Cappy's philosophy with everything. think, and honestly, hearing that from him, like Cappy and I go way back, but I think my respect for him went way up after hearing his mantra with that, because in my world, know, digital marketing is, is probably the closest department that touches the fan, you know? So for me, I'm like, you could have all this play listing and all of these, you know,
great things that the label provides. But at the end of the day, if you're not super serving your fans, those are the ones that are going to listen to your music, regardless of a playlist, they're going to buy your tickets. They're going to buy your merch. Like, why would you not focus on them first? Like what does any of this matter if you don't focus on the fans first? So, ⁓ yeah, that was just kind of something that, you know, from early on he's, he's always, you know, prioritized. And I think you can tell by the artists that he works with too. mean,
Luke does so many things where, you know, he doesn't need, you know, the cool looks or anything like that. ⁓ As long as he's, you know, serving the fans.
Speaker 2 (49:51)
Yeah, yeah. So it almost feels like it's almost like it's like empathy towards the fan, like a connection towards the fan. Is that true at a major? Is that like where you're like incentivized or guided to?
Speaker 1 (50:06)
Yeah, I I feel like I'm sort of like an outlier because my whole mindset, like this whole thing, like I feel like I've always, you know, appreciated the fan experience just as being a fan myself. like, you know, when I early in the Taylor Swift days, like me and my sister and my mom would come down to Nashville for CMA Fest and that, that event, I don't know if you've been to CMA Fest, but that is like literally
Speaker 2 (50:19)
as a fan.
Speaker 1 (50:33)
the most fans first thing I've ever seen in my life. And I didn't know at that time, I'd been to concerts and all those things, but that was the first thing that I'd gone to where I'm like, my gosh, whoever's putting this on is wanting to reward these fans for liking country music or whatever it was going on. All the artists had fan club parties. ⁓
which were like intimate, like, you know, they'll play the deep cuts that, you know, they're not going to play in concert. They'll answer questions. Like it just felt like so much more intentional and you know, So yeah. So to answer your question, me coming from that mindset, like, like I remember I was at the label and we were kind of talking about Luke's deluxe record. ⁓ And he is very good about like, you know, the fan's first thing, like.
Speaker 2 (51:11)
Yeah, but do you
Speaker 1 (51:26)
he'll tease music and he'll want to hear what the fans think about it. So it was, I remember it being like a May timeframe. Like I think it was his debut record. They were making it a deluxe and we were trying to figure out like we've got like, you know, four or five songs on this deluxe. What should be the first one that we put out on this deluxe record to like announce it and all of that. And so I remember telling Cappy, I'm like, we should maybe do beautiful crazy because that is, you he, at that point, like he had
posted it on Facebook and all the places, fans were playing it, just ripped off of YouTube at their weddings. You'd see in the comments, can you please put this out before June blah blah blah. I need to play this as my first dance in my wedding song. So just having a pulse on that stuff, when it came to those discussions about what should be the first Insta-Grat track, I'm like, well, it's May. We're getting into wedding season.
The fans clearly want this one. let's like start it off with that. And, you know, ⁓ obviously we see how well that did. I don't know if you noticed the diamond plaque over there. That was, yeah. So, I don't know, but that's all like, to me that just, that's a no brainer. Like, it's not like, cause I'm super smart or any, or, know, like I have a poll, like it is just like, you're listening to what the fans want. Like everything kind of at the end of the day, it all circles back.
Speaker 2 (52:51)
to
that. Yeah, without them there is no correct. are we doing? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:55)
Yeah, the playlist that you're pushing them to listen to with it at the top of the playlist. Like if they're going to listen to it, they're going to listen to it. don't, they don't care. I, cause me, I don't care as a consumer, like what playlist this song is on. care if I feel something or, know, I feel like a part of the artist process and you know, they're listening to me or whatever that, you know, as a fan.
Speaker 2 (53:17)
Yeah, that it almost feels like too. was just listening to someone talking about this, this like AI guy follow on LinkedIn, but he was talking about how much AI music there is on streaming platforms. I think he said like 20 or 30 % is AI music, he's like, he's like, there's so much. He's like, honestly, a lot of it's really good, but no one listens to it because he's like, at the end of the day, the fan artist relationship is actually what people care about in music. Like that is what built this. That's what will continue to build this.
Speaker 1 (53:31)
oversaturated.
Speaker 2 (53:46)
And it gives me, it's funny because I feel like artists, talk to like small artists, they really freak out over AI and I'm like, I don't think it's a big deal right now. Like until there's an AI artist that no one can decipher whether it's real or not, like you're gonna be, there's that like love, that human thing is going to outweigh the, just the like decorative art that this machine is creating or whatever that thing is. Do you, now that you have,
transition from the major system back to a, I guess this is sort of a, it's a boutique a little bit of an agency. ⁓ Do you notice, like what are some of the main differences just in terms of like how you're able to do your job? Do you have to, I'm assuming back at the big place you had to go through hoops to do certain things, but here perhaps you have more.
Speaker 1 (54:43)
Yeah, less red tape, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it's you know, it's me and Kyle. I walked by his office or we walked by his office earlier. So he came from an agency and then I obviously had the label background. So we work really great in tandem together. ⁓ You know, he comes from the agency side, you know, me more major label working with partners and things like that. So it's been, it's, it's been awesome to work together with him. ⁓ But we can't cover the entire roster, obviously. Yeah.
but we kind of, you know, can prioritize, you know, in that way, just, you know, based on who's needing more digital support and whatnot. But, but yeah, I think for us, it's just been the freedom and we have enough, you know, tenure to know what's impactful to work on and what's not. sometimes I've, you know, I hope no one listens to this and gets mad at me for saying it, but it was like, sometimes I felt like I was doing things to check a
box versus things with intent. or something to put in like a marketing plan that we'd show off, you know, like, like stuff, like filler stuff. and there's, you know, nothing wrong with that in a sense of like, you know, I, I learned things by doing that, but I also learned what moves the needle and what doesn't. So, and sometimes it's not always the flashy stuff that moves the needle. You can get, you know, this really cool website built that
Speaker 2 (56:01)
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:09)
does all these cool things for, you know, an absurd amount of money, but no one uses it. So, you know, it's cool that I did that and I got to like oversee all of that happening, but would it have been better for me to spend my time on, you know, ⁓ maybe a content strategy or, ⁓ you know, working with creators to talk about said artist or, know, whatever that looks like. So, ⁓ it,
Speaker 2 (56:15)
and no one uses it.
Speaker 1 (56:39)
It's, think now it's like more the freedom that I can, I know I'm empowered by Cappy to, to work on what is going to move the needle and what is the priority or not.
Speaker 2 (56:50)
Was that part of kind of the discussions initially with Cappy was like, you know, when you come here, I mean, it's kind of assumed like you were, you're kind of coming here to build the digital.
Speaker 1 (57:01)
Yeah,
so, um, Cappy started Make Wake in 2015. So this year is the 10 year anniversary. They're, you know, throwing a big party to celebrate. And it's just been, you know, I've worked with Cappy since pretty much the beginning. Um, and just kind of seen what he's built, the culture that he's built.
Speaker 2 (57:22)
Has he just slowly been piecing
Speaker 1 (57:25)
Yes.
And so was kind of like, you know, I've always respected, ⁓ you know, his insight on things and vice versa with me. So we've always been aligned in that, you know, philosophy. ⁓ and I think it was just a timing thing for me. Like, you know, it felt like the right time, you know, I was ready for a new adventure to be able to, you know, bring that experience from, from the label world, ⁓ and help build.
this out because they've not had a digital presence ⁓ really like at a department level until now. So, and I'd worked with Clinton, he's on ⁓ Luke's team as well, ⁓ like on all the social stuff. So it's even cooler to get to work closer with him now being on this side too.
Speaker 2 (58:00)
Tom now.
So at major labels, what is the percentage of resources that are dedicated to the big artist versus smaller artists? Because even at smaller places, the bigger artist disproportionately gets most of the resources, but the smaller artists can benefit if they play their cards right and be patient.
Speaker 1 (58:38)
Yeah, it's tough. think in my world, especially, which I can speak more into. ⁓ so, you know, I, I remember obviously at a label you have to prioritize, ⁓ and it's usually the developing acts that get the can, but in, our world, it was like, okay, like, you know, our CEO at the time was like, you know, don't focus any resources on this, you know, do the bare minimum, but like,
for me, it's like, okay, I have this digital checklist. I still have to make social banners. I still have to do that. Like, it's not like I can just like not do it. You know? So just like the understanding of like, okay, like do you are, when you're telling me to do the bare minimum, like, do you understand what that means for me? Because I still have to do it. So it's still going to take the same amount of work. But I think, you know, when you're at a level, like an A-list level, you have a big team, like even on the management side that, that has
you know, someone for each of those functions that like, you know, a baby act, you know, a baby act probably doesn't have a, you know, a digital person on the management team. They probably don't have a creative director or, know, whatever, whatever that is. ⁓ so they've re they're the ones that really need your lean in and support. And, know, by signing with a major, that's, that's what you think you're maybe getting. And, and not to say that like, you know, my experience was like,
I didn't care if they were a developing act or not. I, you know, I kind of pride myself on not half-assing anything, giving them what I think they need. But, know, it makes it hard to balance when, you don't have enough resources. ⁓ but yeah, it was sort of like, you couldn't really, even though we were told to do the bare minimum to get by it's in my world, that wasn't really possible.
Speaker 2 (1:00:28)
Yeah.
So, so would a, would an artist being signed to a major who's younger or budding, being signed to a major benefit from just thinking of it as I'm now signed to a major, but this is still basically my career and I should build my own team or bring in my own team.
Speaker 1 (1:00:49)
Yeah. So if you want my real answer, part of my initial thought processes of even leaving the label was that I know, seeing ahead to the future, yes, you need a label because you do need a radio. initially, labels were the radio. You needed a radio team. You also needed the production side of it too.
producing vinyl, all of that. Now you're kind of in this place where, you know, there's, there's tools out there that you can put out music and not have to have a major label to do that. Yeah. radio, you don't necessarily need a radio team when you get to a certain level. Yes, absolutely. Like you have to be able to scale up. You have to have that infrastructure in place, but as a developing act, you don't technically need that in the beginning. think.
where we're seeing, and even like in this bi-coastal, like, you know, everyone wants their foot in country music now. Like what I'm seeing is like, you have these artists that have been developing without a major for so long and they have leverage now. Like they've found the fans, they've built their touring, they've done all these things and they don't necessarily have to sign just yet. You know, like.
Why do they need a label deal right now? If they have everything, and especially like, know, like Cappy's building on a digital department, he's building out, he has a merch division and even a label services division and you know, a publicist and all of those things here at Makewake. You know, you have all of that support here. So you're kind of just building until the point where you need that major label infrastructure and maybe quote unquote advanced to take you to the next level.
Speaker 2 (1:02:42)
Yeah, so I have asked almost every guest who's involved in music on this side of things, is there a fragmenting going on from people leaving majors and entering the, I don't even know if we would call this the independent space, but sort of it is. But I know you, I know our mutual friend, I know.
other people, just talked to a guy like on the three podcasts ago who was at Warner and it seems like, he's really excited about the independent space now. And he's like, I have a lot of friends who are just like bringing knowledge and the experience and the connections from that. And then just applying it to, and it almost just feels like a like fragmentation. don't know whatever word to use, but it's like, things are kind of like, like, like going like spreading and people are starting their own stuff.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (1:03:42)
I think you can just hold out a bit longer than you could before. Because if you think about it, like radio, like to be heard in some degree, back in the day, like you had to be on the radio and now you don't necessarily have to be. So I think people are just waiting a bit longer and then, you know.
they're probably getting hit from all angles, not just, you know, the Nashville labels in town, they're probably getting hit from someone in LA, someone in New York, you know, um, that see this genre growing as well. Um, and yeah, I think it's just being more intentional and more smart about, you know, how you're expanding and, know, not making quick decisions if you don't have to. Um, and I think that's the beauty of like just the management side. You're, you're
kind of seeing these big management companies become more full service.
Speaker 2 (1:04:34)
Yeah, because they can, because they can have all the tools too. Right. You can make the record in your bedroom with your friend and your debt or your garage or something. And it sounds fine. You can hire somebody else to mix it. It's like, So, so from your viewpoint, are you, cause a lot of people, ⁓ and I've actually stopped getting on LinkedIn so much. Cause I just feel like it's like a, it's like a cesspool of negativity and a lot of the people that I follow, but maybe I just fall on the wrong crew. But are you
optimistic about the future of music. Recorded live, all of it.
Speaker 1 (1:05:09)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, if you weren't, it would be weird if I wasn't. yeah, no, I'm excited. I feel like I've never, I've never felt like I've just been content. Like there's always something new to learn. think like even for me, was like, okay, I'm done the label stuff now. Like what else can I learn from being at a management company? Like there's, you know, a whole world of touring that I don't feel like I understand completely yet. ⁓
Speaker 2 (1:05:11)
If you're weird
Speaker 1 (1:05:38)
even the merch side of things, like by being this a little bit closer, like I can even figure out, you know, how I can help the merch team or how, how we can help the touring team more because I, I wanted to have more of a well-rounded understanding of this business too. And, know, it was kind of like, I did the radio thing. I did the, you know, digital marketing thing. I did the indie label thing. I did the major label thing. So it was like, what's, what's next.
Speaker 2 (1:06:05)
next.
Speaker 1 (1:06:07)
And, you know, this is kind of where I foresee the future going.
Speaker 2 (1:06:12)
Yeah,
it's kind of funny. always the my wife's a real estate agent. She works at a brokerage. The brokerage has agents, which I kind of analogize to managers. And then they have an in-house staff that does like admin work for each of the agents. It almost feels, and then they have specialized people who do like social content or marketing. almost feels like, and I was looking at Cappy's website, I'm like, it almost feels like this is the similar thing except for music. We have a batch of managers and we have like the staff who services the artist.
and the artist would be like a client or something buying a house. But it's an interesting, lean model that it's awesome. So what do you think that the fan in you who was listening to Red back in 2007 was like, you were like, hey, Jess, in 2007, here's where you're going to be in 2025. Could you have imagined this is
Where you were gonna be.
Speaker 1 (1:07:12)
Absolutely not. Absolutely not. ⁓
Yeah, I mean...
Speaker 2 (1:07:18)
Not even much of a question, guess. No, it's...
Speaker 1 (1:07:21)
It's been awesome to talk with you just because like I haven't really like, I've been go, go, go, like literally since I moved here, never really taking a break. So, and I don't like to talk about it. I'm like the behind the scenes girl. I'm like, you know, I always want to be behind the camera and not in front of it. So, but it's, it's fun to talk about this stuff because it has changed so much. And I don't know, I'm just, I'm excited about the future. ⁓ you know, I've even wondered myself, like, you know, do I manage someone someday?
And, you know, Cappy's always been super supportive with anyone on his staff. you know, he wants you to be the best version of yourself and whatever that looks like. And, you know, I have mad respect for that. And, you know, I want to instill that with anyone that I work with too. ⁓ You know, none of this happens alone. And yeah, it's, it's been, it's been awesome. ⁓
And, know, I've been here since like the end of April around stagecoach is what I would like to call it. was our, ⁓ that was our, guess, my initiation or ⁓ some form of hazing. don't, I don't really know, that was, that was the, yeah, that was the make wake retreat this year. So, yeah, we had like six artists playing out there, including Luke. And so that was kind of like, you know, we're all, we have our own rosters here. ⁓ So it was cool to get to meet everyone in kind of one, one space too. ⁓
Speaker 2 (1:08:45)
Thank you to Jess Kiefer for being a guest on the Everybody Else podcast. I have to give credit where credit's due. Jess was one of the initiators of the podcast with an off the cuff remark that a phone call her and I had with our mutual friend Lauren back in April, maybe of this year, 2025. We talked for about an hour and at the end of the conversation, she's like, man, this was fun. Felt like a podcast.
I was like, shit, you're right. Maybe I'll start a podcast. And here we are 16 episodes later. And I'm so glad that she gave me some time to interview her for the show. Thank you again to Symphonic Distribution for sponsoring this episode. And if you're interested in learning more about my companies, Wally Opus Records, a independent record label and artist management company based here in Southern Indiana.
and Through-Line Development Company, a coaching and artist development service that I recently started to help new and emerging acts to get clear on what they want, to get a practical plan in place, and to provide support to help them get there. So check out artistdev.co to learn more or follow me on Instagram at WesLuttrell, where I am regularly posting insightful tips, lessons learned, little tidbits about how things work in music like
what we just talked about on the podcast. I share stuff like that regularly on my Instagram. Thank you for listening to the show. Please like, subscribe, and follow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Keep doing your thing, keep showing up. Be patient with the process. Good things are gonna come. They're gonna come. Thanks for listening to the show, and we'll be back again next week.