S2E1: Why We Prioritize Ministry in Cities

Show Notes

Tim Keller articulates City to City’s “city vision” by explaining why we must reach cities, how we should go about it, and why we are confident it can be done. Caroline Millar and Girma Bishaw discuss the mission and vision of The London Project and their work to catalyze Christian collaboration across the city. 

What is How to Reach the West Again?

Christianity is declining in the West. How will the church respond?

Redeemer City to City's "How to Reach the West Again" podcast takes the insights of author and pastor Timothy Keller's book of the same name—and explores them in greater detail with a host of guest ministry leaders.

Join us as we examine ourselves, our culture, and Scripture to work toward a new missionary encounter with Western culture that will make the gospel both attractive and credible to a new generation.

Episode 1: Why Do We Prioritize Cities?

Brandon O’Brien: This is How to Reach the West Again, a podcast that aims to inspire and empower a fresh missionary encounter with Western culture. I’m your host, Brandon O’Brien.

Welcome to season two of the How to Reach the West Again podcast. Last season we explored the several dimensions of a missionary encounter with Western culture. We talked to a lot of interesting people from across Europe and North America about a range of topics related to culture and Christian mission.

This year we’re narrowing our focus to cities—what are they? What does the Bible say about them? How do we plant churches there? What does it mean to love them? What unique challenges and opportunities does city ministry present?

At City to City, we refer to this constellation of questions and our concern about them as “city vision.”

Our reason for spending a whole season on cities is simple: we won’t reach the West if we don’t reach cities. Cities are growing in size and population every year, everywhere in the world, including the West. And denominations and sending agencies are often ill-equipped to reach urban populations.

And so, in this season, we’ll keep turning the topic of city ministry over and over, looking at it from many angles, and hopefully come away with a clearer vision and deeper passion for serving in the great cities of the world.

Now if you happen to live somewhere you wouldn’t consider a city, there’s plenty for you here, too. Knowing how to learn and love and serve the places we live in is an important skill for all of us, whatever type of community we inhabit.

In today’s episode we’ll hear a classic presentation from Tim Keller that articulates City to City’s city vision. Tim explains why we must reach cities, how we should go about it, and why we are confident it can be done.

Next we’ll talk to Caroline Millar and Girma Bishaw—two people who are passionate about city ministry in the great city of London. But first, Tim Keller.

Timothy Keller: Why we must reach the cities, the great global mega-cities, how we should reach those cities, and why we can reach those cities. Why we must, how we should, why we can.

Why must we reach cities? Because cities are so crucially important, culturally, missiologically, viscerally. Culturally, in the last year, both the Financial Times and Foreign Policy, two very important international journals, did major issues on mega-cities and the importance of them. And in Foreign Policy, we read this: "The 21st century will not be dominated by America or China or Brazil or India, but by the city. In an age that appears increasingly unmanageable, cities rather than states are becoming the islands of governance on which the future world order will be built. Time, technology, and population growth have massively accelerated the advent of this new urbanized era. Already more than half the world lives in cities, and that percentage is growing rapidly. Just 100 cities account for 30% of the world's economy and almost all of its innovation." If you want human life as it is lived in this world to be shaped at all by Jesus Christ, you have to—we have to—go to this city.

Secondly, missiologically. We have to go because they're so important missiologically. Four kinds of people that are there: first of all, if you want to reach the next generation, you've got to go to the cities because young adults disproportionately want to live in cities and that's where they go. You've got to go where they are if you want to reach the new generation. In whatever culture you're in, you've got to go to cities. Another group—the most unreached people in the world are more reachable in cities. When they immigrate to cities either from the rural areas into cities and their own homeland or to other countries' cities, they break their kinship ties. They're in a more pluralistic environment. They are far more, humanly speaking, open to the gospel than they would ever have been in their previous habitat. If you want to reach the most unreached peoples in the world, go to cities.

So you have to reach unreached peoples; there, you reach the younger generation. Thirdly, the people who tend to make the films, write the books, do the business deals—they're there. The people that have the biggest impact on the cultures of the world are there, and lastly, intriguingly, the poor. If you go to cities, you not only reach the elites of the world, but you reach the poor. Something like one-third of all the people moving into the great cities of the world today are going to live in shanty towns. And God cares about the poor and he loves the poor, and if you go to the cities, you not only reach the next generation, you not only reach the most unreached peoples, you not only reach the people at the top, you reach the people who God loves at the bottom.

Missiologically, that's where you have to go to reach those people. So, culturally, missiologically, but the city is important viscerally. Now, what do I mean by viscerally? From the heart. In Jonah 4, at the end, Jonah is very unhappy because God has not destroyed the great city of Nineveh, very unhappy. But he's very happy with a vine that has grown up, a beautiful vine. He's gotten very emotionally attached to it because it's beautiful and it gives him shade in that very hot environment, and that's natural and right to love part of God's green earth. But then the vine dies and he gets anguished and discouraged and depressed, and God makes an argument. God says to him, "You were emotionally attached to the vine and not caring about what happens to Nineveh. Jonah, you love plants, but I love people."

Now, Psalm 19 tells us nature does reflect God's glory, but human beings, according to Genesis 1, made in the image of God reflect God's glory more than anything else in creation. And in cities, you have more image of God per square inch than anywhere else in the world, and so God makes a numbers argument. We're not supposed to care about numbers, and he makes a numbers argument. He says, "Jonah, there's 120,000 people in Nineveh,"—it's a massive number for the time—"that do not know their right hand from their left. How can you fail not to be moved by that? I am." A missionary friend of mine once quipped, “The country is where there's more plants than people and the city is where there's more people than plants. And because God loves people more than plants, he's got to love this city more than the country.” And that is exactly God's argument to Jonah. People are streaming into the city as you just saw. Three hundred years ago, less than 3% of the world's population lived in cities. Today, it's over 50% and growing rapidly.

It's estimated that eight million people, every two months, move into the cities of the world. That's one new Bangkok every two months. The church has to be everywhere there's people, but the people are moving into the city faster than the church is. If you love what God loves, that's the visceral. If you love what God loves, you love the city. If you want to go where the people are going, you've got to go to the city, and our churches are not going to the city anywhere nearly as fast as the people are. That's why we must reach the city.

Now, secondly, briefly, how we should. And I just want to give you some headings here. Those of you who want to go deeper can come to the multiplex later. Urban China is different than China, urban America is different than America. Urban Africa is different than Africa, and when you take churches, which we tend to do, that have been forged out in Africa and put them into urban Africa, we find they're not effective. We wonder, “Why?” Because they have to be contextualized and our churches are not contextualized for the city, and therefore they're not being effective. If you're going to contextualize the church for the city, consider these headings.

Churches in the city have to be extremely patient with charges of cultural insensitivity because center-city churches will always have people from different cultures. Every culture conceives of time differently, emotional expressiveness differently, honor and shame differently. They make decisions differently, and if you're going to have an effective center-city church in these great global cities, they're going to be multicultural. And therefore, people are always going to be charging one another with cultural insensitivity, and if you're not extremely patient with constant charges of cultural insensitivity, you're not going to be an effective urban church leader. You have to always be expecting it. You have to always be patient and listening to it. And you know you'll never solve it, but the fact that you are open to it and you're learning from it and you are being patient with it proves that you have begun to contextualize for a city because churches outside of cities really don't have to put up with that kind of conflict.

Secondly, churches and cities have to show people how their faith relates to their work, their job, their vocation. People in cities, their work is a much bigger part of their lives than it is outside, and as Dorothy Sayers, the British essayist, said, "What good is a church that tells you nothing that's relevant to nine-tenths of your life?"

And urban dwellers, nine-tenths of their life is their work. I remember some years ago, an actor came to me who had just become a Christian at my church, and he sat down and he said, "I want you to disciple me." I said, "Great.” How to do evangelism, Bible study, I knew all this stuff, I learned it in seminary. So I sat down and he said, "What roles can I take as a Christian and what roles should I not take?" And then he said, "What do you think of method acting?" And I said, "What's method acting?" Well, he said, "So here in America they say, ‘Don't act angry, get angry,’ but in Britain they say, ‘Act angry.’ Which should it be as a Christian? What does Christianity have to say to these various things?" And I looked at him and I said, "I have no idea because I only know how to disciple people by bringing them out of their work world into my church world that's how I was trained." But if you're in an urban church, you can't do that. You have to help people integrate their faith with their work.

Thirdly, you have to be constantly open to disorder and change. You have to live with that and know you're going to live with that. Fourthly, your church has to be intensely evangelistic and famous for its concern for justice at the same time. Very rare, but you can't afford not to have that balance if you're an urban church.

Number five, there has to be a commitment to the arts. Churches outside the city do not need, usually, to be as attentive to the arts, but in this city you have to be.

And lastly, sixthly, churches in the city have to be cooperative with other churches of other denominations and traditions in a way they can afford not to be elsewhere—you can just live in your own tribe. In the city, you'll never reach the city unless you're very cooperative with other believers across denominational lines.

Those are some headings. I know that all of those things are things that, outside of cities, are optional. It would be nice if you have them in your church. In cities, they're absolutely necessary.

Lastly, let me tell you why we can do it. Many of us are defeatist about this. We're afraid, the big cities, we don't know how to reach them. We can do it. Here's why we can. In Genesis 18, God visits Abraham and says to Abraham, "I'm going to go destroy these cities, your neighboring city, Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm going to destroy them," and Abraham approaches God and he does three things that are just remarkable.

First of all, he begins to pray for an unbelieving city. That's unique in the old Testament. Moses, Samuel, Jeremiah prayed for their own people, but Abraham begins to pray for these unbelieving cities. "Oh, yes," you say, "he was concerned about Lot, his nephew who lived there," but why didn't Abraham say, "Get Lot free, then blast them"? He didn't do that. He's praying for these unbelieving wicked pagan cities. That's the first thing he did. The second thing he did was, he essentially endangered himself for their sake because he approaches God, the holy God and asks him again and again to spare the city. At one point, Abraham knows how dangerous this is. He says, "I, who am but dust and ashes, let me speak again." But the most dangerous thing for him was, by sparing the cities, Sodom and Gomorrah continued to be a threat to Abraham. They were dangerous for Abraham. This could have been Abraham's opportunity to get rid of them but he didn't.

He prayed for these cities. He sacrificed, risked his life for these cities, but most of all, he made a theological case. It's an amazing case. He said, "If there's fifty righteous men, if there's forty righteous people, there's thirty righteous people, will you spare these cities who deserve destruction for the sake of these righteous people?" And do you know what that theological argument is? It was a case because Abraham was acting as a representative, he was acting as a high priest, and he was making a case and he was saying, "Is it possible that the righteousness of the few could secure mercy for the undeserving many? Could the righteousness of the few somehow save the undeserving many?"

But in the end, though Abraham is acting as a high priest, he didn't get his prayer. Did he? It didn't work. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. They didn't have the high priest they needed, but we do, Jesus Christ the ultimate high priest. Abraham prayed for people, interceded for people who might have killed him, but Jesus Christ: "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing." Jesus Christ interceded for people who did kill him. Abraham risked his life for these unbelieving cities. Jesus gave his life for the unbelievers, but most interesting of all, Abraham had a theological concept: isn't it possible that somehow the righteousness of the few might cover the sin of the many? But Jesus Christ is the reality. Jesus Christ is the only righteous one. "God made him sin who knew no sin that we might become the righteousness of God in him," 2 Corinthians 5:21.

He's the reality to which Abraham pointed, and when you find him your savior, when he becomes your high priest, you and I can become the priest that the cities of this world need. We can pray for them like the Jews were told, "Pray for Babylon and seek the peace of the city." We should sacrificially lay our lives out for the people in this city. They should see even though we don't believe with them, we care about them, we love them, neighbor love. We should pray for them because we have now been empowered to be the priests that those cities need. We should sacrificially lay out our lives for them, but most of all, we should offer the righteousness of Jesus Christ to cover their sin that they may be saved. Because he's the priest that those cities needed, we now, believing in him, become the priest that our cities need, and we can be the priests our cities need. Look at the cities of this world. “Look at the masses of these cities,” God says. Why aren't you moved by them? Why aren't you going there? So let's go. Thank you.

Brandon O’Brien: Our two guests today are moved by the city. The first is Girma Bishaw.

Girma Bishaw: So, when I introduce my name, always I give what it means, kind of its meaning just to give it a little bit of profile. Girma means “majesty,” so in case you forget my name, you can say, “Your highness.”

Brandon O’Brien: Girma was born and raised in Ethiopia and moved to London to attend university. He’s lived in London since. Among other things, he works as a city catalyst for an organization called The London Project.

Girma Bishaw: And the work of a city catalyst is really to introduce and inspire, introduce the vision and the mission of The London Project, and inspire people to have a citywide perspective and an aspiration to see a gospel movement in the city of London.

Brandon O’Brien: The other voice you’ll hear belongs to Caroline Millar. Caroline is a London local, born and raised, the daughter of South Asian immigrants.

Caroline Millar: So, my name's Caroline Millar, I'm Director of Operations at The London Project. And I guess, at this early startup sort of period of The London Project, my role kind of covers looking at the strategic direction. Looking at how we catalyze people and who we are and can hopefully fulfill our aims of seeing gospel city movement in the city. So, everything from operations, as well, but really the capacity building behind it.

Brandon O’Brien: You've alluded already to this question a little bit, but can you explain what it is The London Project aims to do? What are its goals and what's the vision here?

Caroline Millar: Well, at the heart of it, we want to see a gospel city movement. And I think, even though Girma's role is as a catalyst, I think we really see The London Project as a catalyst in the city. So, it's really about seeing what is going on in the city, but really seeing where we can actually catalyze relationships and where we can catalyze more good happening in the city.

Brandon O’Brien: I'm curious, what brought you here? What appeals to you about The London Project?

Girma Bishaw: So, I've been a pastor for 18 years in the Ethiopia-Eritrean community. And since the Ethiopian church, we drew our sermons on services in our own language in Amharic, so it's just Ethiopians Eritreans and it was very exclusive ministry. So as our young people start to grow, our interaction with the wider community starts to grow. I started to find it difficult to continue in ethnic-based ministry. And I just started to question, "How can we serve and embrace the wider community? What does it mean for us to be in London? How can the second generations and the first generations–the mission field is different." So the second generation, it's the wider community. For us, it's the migrant Ethiopians and Eritreans. And how can we really ignite fire in the young people about their mission field, if we don't have a heart for that mission field? So those questions started to develop in me and eventually I resigned from my pastoral position to engage in mission, to encourage the ethnic churches to be more missional, to connect with their localities and to consider involving in a wider mission of God, beyond their ethnicity. So, that led me to interact with people from other countries as well as with indigenous white community and so, as I do that, I started to develop a heart for London, for Britain. And so, while I was doing that, I was introduced to Neil and eventually I found The London Project to be very much in my line of work. And that's what really drove me to The London Project.

Brandon O’Brien: So, in your work as a catalyst now, you're kind of helping people go on the same journey that you took yourself to get a sense of the larger perspective of London and the ministry that can be done outside of someone's local congregation or neighborhood?

Girma Bishaw: Exactly. So, in the sense of, the question of what does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in the diaspora community? The tendency is that, we are very much seeing, “It's not my responsibility really to reach the white community, it's the whites’ community, their responsibility. My responsibility is to reach my own kind of people.” But I found that very difficult. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, we are called to embrace and participate in the wider mission of God. The reason why we tended to focus on our own ethnicity is that we don't feel it's our job to do that. But I think, it's to do with this, your sense of identity being linked with your geographical location, where you came from. So, my own journey, understanding that I have a transnational identity, which is my identity in Christ, liberated me to embrace transnational responsibility. So for Britain, I am as responsible for the work of God in Britain, I am as responsible as any Brits on the mission of God. Because this is my Father's job, this is, of course, people, it's humanity, so that liberated me to engage. So, it's really helping them to take that journey and not necessarily resign from the pastoral position like me but actually transform the way they do church. The way they engage with the local community, the way they interact with the younger generation and really to see beyond their ethnicity and collaborate with others.

Brandon O’Brien: And Caroline, tell us about how you kind of got up to The London Project? And what attracted you to this work?

Caroline Millar: So, I actually came to faith later on in life so in my late twenties. And I think from there, I just really had a desire to share the gospel, share the good news of Jesus to everyone. And I basically have gone from being just a disciple in a church and kind of going, "Okay, so what does this mean?" to them actually coming to some of, even some of the teachings of Tim Keller, and the church that I was in was very much interested also in how the gospel affects all aspects of life.

So from a professional view, I trained as an architect, I've worked in lots of different industries, from banking and finance, I've worked a little bit in world events, sporting events, and I've worked for the Mayor of London on different projects and programs there. And got to the stage where it was like, "Where do I take this from now on, now that I've become a Christian?" And so I did a period working for my church, and I guess I've always thought there's been this thread through my faith journey where I've had this passion for the city, but also a passion for Jesus, and I think the first time where I thought, "Oh, these come together," is all this talk on gospel, city, movement. So I was really interested in that. I also worked for a Christian mission that's based in London prior to this, and so, like Girma, I had been just meeting lots of people in different parts of the church in London especially, and came into contact with Neil through that, and just really heard the real vision to see a gospel city movement in London, and to me it was just, that was all my things colliding, all my passions colliding in one and hence finding myself here.

Brandon O’Brien: And from what I understand about your background too, you have experience in working with organizations and city initiatives and things for social good and interest in sort of social impact, social good kinds of work. I'm curious how that experience influences the kinds of things you hope to see come through the London project.

Caroline Millar: Yeah, well I think it's, whether it be local government or charity sector or grassroots community organizations, there are a lot of people that are trying to do good in this city. But I guess as Christians we have a different—not always a different, I would say more of a—definition of what good actually means, right? So if we are talking about, when it talks about and it causes us to seek the peace, the shalom of the city, that word shalom has so much more meaning than maybe just doing good in different things. Some of those things are the same impact we want to see, whether it be like child poverty or a decrease in youth crime in the city or whatever it might be, better healthcare for people and more equality, all of these sorts of things. But I think as the church, we have a unique perspective to that.

And I think sometimes what it is, there's so much to learn from others that are working in this space, but I just believe that each of them have different roles to play. So government have a role, business has a role, communities has a role. And I think sometimes the question is left—it's like, "Well, what's the church's role?" And that kind of comes to an understanding of the identity of the church. And so yeah, we could argue that to society nowadays, the church is becoming more relevant like, "What are we here for?" We were “this relic from the past history,” or “not necessarily a good one,” lots of things like that. But when we actually look at who we are called to be and our identity as the body of Christ, it's a shame. We're not known as the community of peace, the community of healing where people brokenness, confined sanctuary was the fact that we are supposed to be ministers of reconciliation and all of these things are part of who we are in our identity. And I'm not saying that isn't something we as the church are all not doing, but I don't think sometimes, often, society doesn't really relate us to those words. And often as a church, we don't relate those to us either because we're like, "Ah, we are still, how can we be that?" And how can we be that with the authority that's given to that?
Brandon O’Brien: Girma, I've heard you use this term, but I think you're kind of teasing out some of the concept, the idea of “city consciousness.” Can you describe what that means to you and why it's an important part of what's happening here at the London Project?

Girma Bishaw: The idea actually occurred to me as I was reading the book of Romans, the fact that Paul wrote Romans as if he's writing to one church in Rome, but actually there was more than one church in Rome. So he was dealing with them as if he's dealing with one church. So there is a trend in the New Testament that God deals with the church in the city as if there is only one church in the city—his church in the city. It doesn't undermine its locality, but there is also a sense of commonality. There's a common mandate given to the churches in the city, his church in the city, to reach the city, to serve the gospel need of the city. So, that really surprised me to observe that we usually focus on our... So the question is, okay, so if God sees us as his church in the city, and there is a common mandate to reach the city, to serve the gospel in the city. So what is the right course of action for us to actually come together and to mission? So when you see the church, we are very localized, very inward-looking in a way within the building. And we are entangled with our own community. And there is no sense of having that citywide outlook or really trying to discern what God is doing throughout the city. So because of that, there isn't any effort to collaborate. I think when we don't have a citywide perspective, we feel like what we are doing is so big. I remember meeting a leader whose church is really doing very, very well and there is a sense of pride and satisfaction because your church is growing. But when we talk about the fact that we have nine million people in London and this church is like 500 people, it's really, it humbled him to say, "Wow." So it's not a job of one church, it's not a job of one denomination, it's not a job of one institution, it's our job. So how can I see what I am doing in my locality is actually contributing to the work of God in the city.

So this city consciousness is like doing what you are doing in your locality with having the city in mind, knowing that changes the whole dynamic. It's like in Nehemiah's time, the wall, it was built within 52 days, but everybody was doing the wall in front of his household. But knowing that that part of the wall they are building is actually connected to the citywide, it's connected with the others in the city. So you see the significance of why you are doing in your locality to the citywide work of God. So when you have that city consciousness, then the other people's success becomes your success. Others’ failure becomes your failure. You cry with those who failed, you celebrate with those who have celebrated. There is a resource that God has given you which could contribute to the work of God in other parts of the city. And there are other resources that you can tap into when you have the city consciousness and engage, knowing there is a common mandate, there's nothing else, it's to reach the gospel needs of the city. So God interested us with different gifts and resources and we can share that with gospel generosity when we have that consciousness. So this is really what the city consciousness is all about.

Brandon O’Brien: I hear in your explanation there and in your personal story, a sort of autobiographical emphasis in your city consciousness, meaning it was meaningful to you to begin to see outside of your ethnic Ethiopian context to a broader view.

Girma Bishaw: That's right.

Brandon O’Brien: And so it's interesting now to see that developing into a passion to bring other people into that broader vision.

Girma Bishaw: Yeah.

Brandon: And we haven't mentioned it here, but in previous conversations that we've had with Caroline, you've mentioned interest in the local, the built environment and the particularities of places. And these positions are not at odds, but there's an interesting kind of give and take here, I think between Girma's emphasis on rising to the city consciousness and what I've heard you describe as the paying close attention to your locality. And I wonder if you could just talk a minute about what, to you, is the value of thinking locally and at the neighborhood place level in your city thinking.

Caroline Millar: Yeah. Well, I think it was the pandemic that really started to re-emphasize some of these ideas to me because it was just this idea of like we were stuck, weren't we, in one place? And what did that mean? What did that look like? What was its effect on church and things? But also I think prior to that, whether it be globalization, whether it be just the fact that the ease of travel from place to place, there's this almost this feeling of, “We can be everywhere and anywhere.” Actually, it kind of dawned me that as we become followers of Jesus, we have this new identity, we have this new purpose and mission that comes with that identity, but we are always operating in a place, in a locality, in a geography. Jesus was born in a place. And it wasn't random, as well. There's a sovereignty to it, that we are put in the locations that we're put in with the neighbors on either side that we're put in. I think what I've realized as well as that background, it's like when you start joining things up, the arch, when I was studying architecture, it was a lot about, I had a real interest in emphasis on public space. What public space meant in terms of how people interact in it and how it engages people, how it gives identity to communities even. I guess this is something that I'm still kind of thinking about. To me it links so much with what we talk about and discuss about contextualization and I guess from an emotional perspective, we could talk about contextualization in terms of understanding the communities, and the people, and their ethnicities and the languages and the cultural barriers, or whatever it might be. The cultural barriers might have to be crossing to share the gospel in heart languages. I think there's also something about the environments, especially in urban environments, that affect the way people behave, affect the way, and we don't necessarily realize that, we are talking about the other day just about how they're actually boundaries in the geography that you won't see on a map. We can see this where it comes to youth gangs, for example. They’re like, “You're crossing a boundary.” Didn't know it was there! But there might be some physical line there. Even as anyone who's walked in a city that they don't necessarily know, will know, as they walk and they do their walk, they will realize that they are going into different areas and different boundaries that might not just be because it's a different neighborhood. I think to me, it's interesting because it's part of how we understand the place, and the people, and the communities in which we are and in which we are sharing the gospel in which we are living in the living out our gospel lives.

Brandon O’Brien: Yeah, that's great. My role at City to City is with our globally facing office. I find that there's always this sort of toggling we do between the universal and the particular, and between the local and the global. It's really a dynamic that continues to intrigue me, that we want to talk about global vision, but the global vision can only be operationalized at a local level.

Caroline Millar: Yeah, I mean, as an architect, I think of it like scales, like when you're doing a drawing of a building, you look at the scale of the detail that picks out different things and gives you different perspectives. You look at how that building sits within its context, or I know that in the States you guys are doing inches and things. I did a summer program in the States, so it really confused me. I had quarter and scale and stuff like that, but here it would be the one-to-one detail of how does this join with this, because we want to make sure that the building stands up, but at the same time, it's the one-to-fifty, which would be the layout or one to 100 or 200 of how that building sits in its context. I think at each of those, you're looking at the same thing. But you notice different particularities and there's a different focus for each. I think at the London project, we have the privilege of working at a scale that isn't at the every day of a local church leader, let's say, and say, “Look, this scale is still applicable to you, but we also have that privilege of being able to see something in Hounslow, and see how it relates to what's happening in King's Cross or Elephant and Castle.”

Brandon O’Brien: That's a really helpful metaphor. The scaling, I'm kind of picturing the peeling various layers of blueprints or something. The way the pieces add up to something larger than you could intuit from anyone of those sheets is really kind of an interesting way to think about the work.

Caroline Millar: Local church leaders do it all the time, and they'll do it on a personal scale from when they're pastoring or it's a one-to-one scale, to a small group scale to, yeah, but I think sometimes I guess there's different things that can be lost at each. If you're looking too much only at the city-wide scale, you lose the kind of humanness because we are limited, but then if you are too into the detail here, you lose the bigger picture. I know, I just think it just brings me, draws me to the wonder of God who works at all scales at all times, and more.

Girma Bishaw: I think even when we talk about the city consciousness, it's all that. It grounds you where you are to do what you're doing locally with understanding that it has wider implications, whether you like it or not. That awareness is very, very encouraging. Yeah, absolutely.

Brandon O’Brien: Now, we've been talking in different ways about loving the city of London. I'm curious to hear from each of you, what does it mean concretely? What does it cost? What are the responsibilities that come with saying that you're committed to loving London?

Caroline Millar: Are we going to talk about the joys as well?

Brandon O’Brien: Absolutely. I just want you to get concrete, so whichever direction you want to go, yeah.

Caroline Millar: Sorry.

Girma Bishaw: Yeah, go ahead.

Caroline Millar: Yeah, I mean, I've been reflecting on 1 Corinthians 13, where it's talking about all these things that you could be doing, but without love, what is it? Then you kind of go, well, what is the love that they're actually talking about? Oh, it's an impossible love, isn't it? It's a love that is God's and it's agape love. You kind of think, “Wow, what is that?” and it feels so overwhelming, but it is only possible with God. It's amazing that we are able to bring part of that, as it were. I think in a way we can say, “Yeah, I love my city.” I love coffee, but to love your city deeply in a way that is patient, is kind, it never fails, I mean, we're all on a journey to try to do that. There is sacrifice involved. I think the biggest thing is the commitment that is required for it. I mean, that passage is used for weddings, isn't it? Whoa, am I really going to love this community like I'm supposed to love my husband? It's deep. I think when I was younger, I always had these dreams of working anywhere in the world and living everywhere. I don't know, maybe I feel like I'm getting older—well I am getting older—but I think the commitment part in it is really key. Even just knowing and committing to a community into an area. I think in cities where there is such transience, that can be hard, and it can be costly. Not just emotionally, because emotionally it's costly because everyone that I meet seems to be going, leaving. It's like, what's it like to still be here when I wanted to be the one to go everywhere? But it's also financially costly. It's not cheap to live in the city and to stay in the city and to prioritize the mission and that gospel living in a way that kind of turns some of your decisions a bit upside down. Most people in my area are either leaving because they're being priced out or they're leaving so that their kids can go to better schools. Then it's like, what does that look like, am I depriving my kids of going to better schools by not moving? So there's decisions on that sort of level. I think it's ultimately decisions on what it actually takes to have that agape love for your community and for the city.

Girma Bishaw: I think I totally agree with what Caroline was saying. I think for me, there's three things that come to mind when I think about loving the city. The first one is sometimes when you talk about city, it can be abstract. How do you love the city? Loving the city is actually loving your neighbor, loving the people that you work with, loving the community, the people that you engage with. Trying to make it a concrete, really visibly engaging, looking at people around you, seeing the situation, seeing the difficulties, really understanding and making yourself available to listen to that. That is one aspect.

The other one is making yourself available for God, because as Caroline was saying, we can be in a city, especially for me, somebody who came from other countries, you tend to live here, but your hearts could be back home and you are not really available for God anywhere. You know, your heart is back on your body. Physically you're here. The need to be available where you are to have the heart of God for the community that you're living with is absolutely crucial. And that is how you... You know, it is not my love. It's actually his love. So to channel his love, I need to make myself available for him, and that is one other aspect, and I think certainly it's a posture. The posture of serving, the posture of listening, the posture of engaging with the community, the posture... There cannot be love for the individual without justice in the community. So you can't just say "I love you", the person that you meet in the church, and not care about the system that is affecting him. So it is really being aware of that and finding a way to contribute to the transformation of that situation, so that is...yeah.

Brandon O’Brien: What do you envision happening in London through the work that The London Project is doing?
Girma Bishaw: Yeah. So looking at where we are now in terms of our relationship, other churches, church leaders, as well as from church leaders in this very diverse city, people who have come from different backgrounds and tribes, different denominations, I aspire to see wholeheartedly embracing our common mandate and recognizing our need for others. The fact that we can't do it on our own and actually for this very diverse city, we need all kinds of churches. And just because the other church is different from mine, it doesn't mean that's not a church. So this broader understanding of the community and the family of God and that sense of collaboration and really engaging with each other, with gospel generosity, I aspire to see that growing and that people are very comfortable and in engaging with others, I want that mindset change in the Christian community. And obviously that deeper understanding of city consciousness, how that's informing how we disciple our congregation because people from our congregation work and entertain in the city.

So what is happening in the city, whether we like it or not, affects them. So our understanding of the city and having that citywide consciousness would help, how we disciple them and keep them for the life of the workplace and other places. So a deeper understanding in engagement of city consciousness and really the link, the local linking with the wider... That becomes a language that we speak. I want to see that. And obviously church planting, particularly in the diaspora side, I think I want to see the diaspora churches being missionally concerned and involved to reach the white community and that there is a bridge, building bridges between those communities where sharing the gospel and dream mission is possible. I want that, kind of, different bridges being built and cross culture mission is exercised. So, yeah.

Brandon O’Brien: Caroline, how about you?

Caroline Millar: In ten years? Okay. So I was thinking about this because I was working on the Olympics in 2012, which was ten years ago. And I was thinking, during the time of the Olympics it was this incredibly special time in the city. Londoners were actually friendly! It changed the whole mood of the city. The way people interacted with each other was very different in that period of the games. And I think our prayer really is that we would see this city transformed by the gospel. And how does it do it? It does it by more and more people coming to know the gospel, come to put their faith in Jesus Christ, but it's really this way of “Actually, how can we see that happen?” So I feel that the only way that we are actually going to see that is if the church can really reimagine its identity and for that to happen, we need to have a united church. We need to have a church where we see church leaders are calling each other friends, where there is that relational unity that can only come about because of the gospel. We need to see that kind of level of collaboration that runs deep. And along with even church leaders and friendship, we want to see a maturity in the body of Christ. We want to see a maturity where people are really understanding and living out what it means to live out both the gospel breadth and the gospel depth. So I think the fullness of the gospel impacting all aspects of their lives, and we pray that we see the majority of the population in this city come to know and live out their lives in a gospel way. And our hope is really that God does the unimaginable.

Brandon O’Brien: Many thanks to Caroline and Girma for their hospitality. For more information about the work they do, visit thelondonproject.co.uk. If you live in London and were inspired by what you heard from them today, please reach out. I know they’d love to connect with you.

Next week on the podcast, we talk with writer Thomas Dyja about what the recent history of New York City can teach us about what makes a city tick and how we can work together to bring change.

How to Reach the West Again is a production of Redeemer City to City. This episode was produced, written and hosted by Brandon O’Brien.

Our associate producer is Braeden Gregg.

The interview was recorded on location in London by Moises Zetina and Luke Gates of Westway Records and edited by Lee Jerkins. Tim Keller’s talk “God’s Global Urban Mission” was recorded by the Lausanne Movement in 2010 and was used with permission. You find the video at lausanne.org.

Redeemer City to City is a non-profit organization co-founded by Tim Keller and supported by generous people like you. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and would like to hear more, subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform, leave a review, and consider making a gift to support the work at www.redeemercitytocity.com/give.