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A podcast that explores human connection, meditative depth, minimalism, sober living, and stories from authentic builders.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Alan Watts: We make an extremely rigid division between work and play. You're supposed to work in order to earn enough money to give you sufficient leisure time for something entirely different called having fun, or play. And this is the most ridiculous division of things, because everything that we do, however tough it is, however strenuous, can be turned into the same kind of play as I was showing you when I was completely fascinated with spinning that orange around my head.
[00:00:48] Alan Watts: So the point is, therefore, that you can do everything you have to do in this spirit. Don't make a distinction between work and play. Regard everything that you're doing as play. And don't imagine for one minute that you've got to be serious about it.
[01:14] Kevin Rose: That was a clip from philosopher Alan Watts. I can think of no better person to riff with me on this passage than today's guest, Jason Fried. Jason, he just really weaves that intersection of work and play so well that I wanted to present him this clip during the podcast to get his take on it. So we'll get into that a little bit later.
[01:40] Kevin Rose: Jason, to me, stands out as one of the internet's most thoughtful and certainly unconventional entrepreneurs. He co-founded 37signals in Chicago in 1999, and this is a software company in the very early web that was behind just some groundbreaking productivity tools. A couple of them, Basecamp, still hugely successful, and then later an email client called HEY. And it's no stretch to say that these tools, not only did they shape the web and companies that would come after them, but they've just fundamentally transformed how millions of us approach work and communication. He's done this both with the tools that he's created and the books that he's written as well.
[02:27] Kevin Rose: And so now, 26 years into 37signals, one thing is certainly very clear at this point, and that is that Jason consistently has challenged traditional norms. He's just advocated passionately for simplicity, for intentionality, and then also for independence. He's run this company without venture funding as a profitable company for 26 years now. And he's taken these principles that he's learned along the way and really articulated them quite well in a few influential books. One called Rework, another called Remote. A lot of the things that we take for granted today were mentioned for the very first time in these books. They definitely stand the test of time.
[03:18] Kevin Rose: In today's conversation, we delve into Jason's deep-seated belief that you should trust intuition over data, his conviction that play and exploration are essential to sustained success, and how his formative experiences have shaped his leadership and novel thinking. And we talk about some of these pivotal moments. One of them, in particular, where he received a single $20 bill from Germany and what it taught him about this profound joy of creating something that is genuinely valued by others.
[03:55] Kevin Rose: This was really a moment for me to celebrate a dear friend and someone that I deeply admire. It's a career that's deeply defined by authenticity, curiosity, and the courage really to go and to forge his own path here. This is Jason Fried.
[04:22] Kevin Rose: You said that your interest in design started with these annual reports that your father would receive. And you found them—this is a quote from you—"beautifully made with glossy pages and great photography." Take me back to that boy, that young boy that encountered these documents. What was that like for you?
[04:44] Jason Fried: Wow. I remember that just being like the first piece of anything that I saw that felt like it was from another planet or something. You know, it's just, it's like, what are these things? These books that come in the mail, you know, and or these magazines or whatever. What are they? I'd seen a magazine, of course, before, but this idea of like text that actually looked good, and charts that looked good, and photographs that looked good. It just kind of, I don't know why, you never really know why things take you somewhere, but they took me somewhere.
[05:16] Jason Fried: And it's probably because like I really admired my dad a lot. You know, he was a, he was sort of an investor, stock, he was a stockbroker basically. And so this was like his world. And I think that was part of it too, that like, "Oh, this is a glimpse into his world. I don't know what these things mean, but he probably does." And they just look cool. And and I just realized that I don't know why, I felt like there was a kind of a harmony in them somehow. Like the the charts and everything lined up nicely and it just felt nice compared to everything I'd seen. I mean, if you probably remember too, like way back in the day with like stuff you'd get from school, like handouts and stuff, it was like over-Xeroxed and like...
[05:54] Kevin Rose: Yes.
[05:54] Jason Fried: Everything was just bad. And then I got these things, I was like, what is this? This is so nice. Who who does this stuff?
[06:00] Kevin Rose: Yeah.
[06:01] Jason Fried: And so I think it just got me excited about, I mean, I didn't, you know, I can look back on these things now and reflect on them, but at the time it felt special and I don't really know why, but it did. And I think this is my best guess.
[06:12] Kevin Rose: Did you find that you were—you mentioned it briefly there, but was a lot of this like driven from a love and admiration for your father or wanting to be like him in some way? What was that relationship like?
[06:23] Jason Fried: I, it probably was like, yeah, we had a good relationship, we still do. But back then, I definitely felt like, you know, my dad was like Superman kind of thing, you know? And I remember we would go to the public library in town and we'd go into there was like a reading, like a financial reading room. And they had like all these like Moody's, I think, books and, you know, these catalogs of of of of charts that you could look up and stocks. You know, this is, you know, early days, right? This was like the mid-80s or something, right? So there weren't really computers that were at home to do this stuff. So you'd go to the library. And I remember him opening them up and researching stocks and researching companies. And again, more tables and more charts and more data that just looked organized.
[07:06] Jason Fried: I felt like it was the first, maybe the first thing I'd seen that felt like really organized and thoughtful.
[07:11] Kevin Rose: Mm.
[07:12] Jason Fried: You know? And that was cool. And I'm like, "Wow, he knows, he knows this stuff." I don't know what this is, but he knows this. This is like his world. And um, that also led eventually to me taking the train—we lived out in the suburbs of Chicago—and my dad worked downtown in Chicago. So I just remember, I don't know how many times I did this with him, but just being so excited the days I could go to work with him. We'd go ride the train downtown, sit in his office, he'd sit behind some terminal thing and do that stuff. Um, and I was just like in awe of like the financial world in Chicago and the pits and we would go down to the stock exchange and see all that stuff happening. And um, yeah, it felt like a different world, something I didn't really understand, but something I felt like I could, I could get into. It seemed exciting and interesting. And he seemed excited and interested by it. And that I think probably just left a major impression on me. But yeah, I've always admired his his independence, actually. He was an independent person too in in those ways. Like he traded, he worked for himself and that all kind of got me fired up too, I think, probably somewhere in there, that probably planted the seed, you know? He'd always tell me like, don't have a boss, you know, all that stuff. So I kind of got fired up that way.
[08:23] Kevin Rose: Do you think seeing some of those early kind of infographics sparked like a curiosity for information design and just like how to present information and how to do it in a clean way and how to get as much information across to the end consumer as possible without mucking it up?
[08:40] Jason Fried: Yeah. Yeah, because I remember, I couldn't, I took some art classes early on and I couldn't really draw. I mean, I could sort of kind of draw, but not really. But I could line things up all right. That that was like, I could, I could make some fake charts and make them look really good. And then like I could bold this or double underline this or put a box around this. And I realized like I could make boxes and lines and arrows and scribbles like look good.
[09:05] Jason Fried: And that was, I've always wanted to be able to draw something, but I just, I don't know. I just didn't have it naturally. I'm sure I could like get better at it. Like my wife's an artist and she can do it and I'm like, I can't do that. I don't know how you do that. Um, but I could certainly line things up. And I think that that got me, kind of got me into that. Um, and then I, you know, um, I mean we're jumping ahead here, but when I first, I launched a BBS, you know, bulletin board system way back in the day and and you had to use like ANSI characters and ASCII art and stuff. And the draw was the name of the app that everyone used to build those ANSI graphics back in the day. I don't know if you remember the draw.
[09:39] Jason Fried: Yeah. Yeah. And it was cool because, you know, it it reminded me of these financial charts. Like you could make basically make like, you know, 90-degree angles and straight lines and stuff and shade things. And and it just was like that. And so I think that's actually why I got into design and computers because I felt like I could translate that this like lines and and charts thing into into computer graphics essentially. And that pumped me up too. I got into interested in that because of that. And that was the first thing I felt like I could make on my own that I didn't need to take lessons or classes to learn how to do. And that was something that was important to me.
[10:20] Kevin Rose: It's interesting because when I first started doing ANSI graphics—and for people that don't know what we're talking about, before the internet, there were these things. Yeah, probably a lot of people probably everyone. There were these things that you would dial into with your modem and you would connect to someone's else's house. So you were actually connecting to a stranger's phone number and their house with a computer sitting in a room somewhere. And then it was up to them to decide what they wanted the interface to look like.
[10:45] Kevin Rose: And so for me, with ANSI graphics, you had a limited number of characters. Imagine like your palette is like this like whatever, 40 characters or however many you had. And they were like right angles and some had two, two lines, some had one, some were different shades. And you kind of had to design the experience for your customers, right? Like where, like what things would say, what menus looked like. Like I had to like go in there and make the menus. So in some way, this was very early kind of UX type stuff, right? But you didn't have to draw it.
[11:17] Jason Fried: Right, you you kind of typed out the design, but it was always about lining things up. I mean, it was always like connecting. So if you can imagine a character, you know, you have a small amount of space and you'd make a line and the lines would meet at the end of the space for the character. So if you did five in a row, you'd have a, you know, a contiguous line, right? And so you you you'd just would design these these layouts based on lines and angles and then some like solid blocks and some shaded blocks. And what I think it taught me ultimately was, um, I mean, again, you know, looking, these are all looking back, we're looking back at things. I don't know what it taught me in the moment, but looking back, it's like, you can get pretty far with not that much. And in fact, you don't need to communicate that much most of the time. And you can really overdo it. And underdoing it is probably better in a lot of ways. And also like fewer things are faster. Like all this stuff sort of just, I learned these things, you know, I didn't mean to learn them, but I just learned them through experience. And I think they stuck with me.
[12:15] Jason Fried: And then also, the other thing is, as you mentioned, like people would dial in with modems, and modems were slow back then initially, maybe 2400 baud or even 1200 baud when they first got started. And so you had to be very economical with the amount of data you were sending over the wire.
[12:30] Kevin Rose: Oh, yeah.
[12:30] Jason Fried: And that was cool, too. It's like, how can I make this thing fast even though everyone's connection is really slow? And then that was like a thing. It's like, oh, my my BBS is fast. It's not sending anything over the wire. You know, it's very minimal. And I I just really came to love that thing. And also, like, frankly, like I couldn't do much more than that anyway. I wasn't much better than what I could do. And that was enough. And I I learned that, too. It's like you don't need to be able to do all the things, just do the things you're good at and like nail it, and then stop, and and don't feel like you're missing anything.
[13:01] Kevin Rose: I think it was a very special time because you're right, it did teach you patience with computers. It also taught you that you didn't need a mouse for things because this was just like interaction via keyboard, which is great. And then there was this idea that was very new at the time that you could transmit a picture of a person over a BBS and watch it come in in real time. And so this is actually graphical. And so I used a protocol back then where I went on there and there was a picture of Cindy Crawford in a bikini. And it must have taken five minutes line by line for that thing to come through, right? And like talk about patience. Like you had to have back then.
[13:44] Kevin Rose: Yes. But I it was, it was an amazing time. It was like a great forcing function to remember, especially now that life can still happen that slow.
[13:54] Jason Fried: I think that that's a big, that's big. And the other thing was like, um, one of the special things back then, I remember, was just discovery felt more exciting because there were gulfs in your like life where you didn't discover anything new for a while because like you felt like you'd discovered all of it. And then one day someone's like, have you seen this BBS called Macropedia? For me, it was like this one called Macropedia, which was out of Lake Forest, Illinois, which was nearby where I lived. I'm like, there's a guy next to my town that has this amazing. And I finally got the phone number and I dialed in. It was like a whole new world, you know?
[14:26] Jason Fried: But it was like one, it was, it was like these slow discoveries versus today, of course, and it's great. There's a lot of great things about today, obviously. But today, if you want to know something, you can know it immediately. It's, there's no delay between wondering and knowing. Back then, it was kind of really exciting to like discover something new and and have to find out like how to discover it and make these connections and somehow find these things and dial in and hope to get in and then set up an account and hope you're approved. All these things, there's a lot of gatekeeping and it was kind of cool. I don't know, it was cool. It's cool. I enjoyed that time. I mean, I think, you know, we, you and I both got lucky growing up around that time, I think, because it was very early days in computer and telecommunications and we got to learn slowly and we got to, I think, I think practice minimalism in a sense, back then. It's just a nice place to start.
[15:23] Kevin Rose: It was forcing, it was forced upon us due to the limitation of the connectivity. Yeah. So you know, one of the things that I see just even in my kids now, which you know, they're seven and six, it's like Roblox is now the thing and then they instantly call their friends and they're talking to them while they're playing Roblox. And there isn't, there's, you know, I have to force the breaks in information. How do you think about that as applied to your own kids today?
[15:53] Jason Fried: My kids, my son, who's 10, he loves Minecraft. And absolutely loves Minecraft, but he loves playing solo. So he he's not playing with other people. Although he he is, we actually got a Minecraft like tutor guy who's incredible, incredible. This guy, his name is Brian Sanders. Um, he's incredible. I'll I'll hook you up if you're curious. He teaches...
[16:18] Kevin Rose: I mean, I literally want to do it for myself.
[16:19] Jason Fried: Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I'm like, I know. He he teaches um Minecraft, but he teaches like creativity in Minecraft, programming through Minecraft, um and it's just an extraordinary teacher. He's like the one of the best teachers I've ever been around. Like he's just awesome. And and so my my son, my son um uh like they they they basically hang out, you know, remotely like for an hour once a week and he learns Minecraft, plays Minecraft with him. Otherwise, he plays by himself. And my daughter, who's six, is just getting into it as well. But they're not big um my kids aren't big video game players other than Minecraft at the moment. They they um, I mean to my surprise, not necessarily delight because I don't think there's anything wrong at all with video games whatsoever. But um they like to make things with their hands, which is um awesome.
[17:09] Jason Fried: Like my son is just constantly making stuff out of wood and cardboard and glue sticks and aluminum foil and, you know, Amazon boxes and like...
[17:18] Kevin Rose: Amazon boxes are the hottest commodity in my house right now. Like a big one comes in and that that is like, give me, give me, give me, you know?
[17:25] Jason Fried: It's awesome. And and and I love seeing it. And uh so so that's kind of cool. There's a lot of time spent like making and then destroying stuff as well. Um so they're not that into the technology stuff so much. I mean, you know, they're into it enough, but um so I don't, it hasn't been like a thing where we're like pulling things away from them or anything like that. I'm happy to let them do whatever they want there. And they also kind of, at least so far, like tend to get a little bit bored doing the same things. So they they seem seem to be able to find out how to take natural breaks, actually, so far at least. You know, I don't know how long that'll change. I think the difference is because my kids seem right now to be solo technologists. And I think if like my son had a few friends doing this at the same time, then I think they would just never stop. But when you're sort of on your own, I think there's you reach this point of like, okay, I've done enough and I'm going to go do something else now.
[18:16] Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. I do want to kind of circle back to this narrative that I'm trying to figure out, which is what created Jason Fried? And what gave you, what what what series of things came together? Like, what was the concoction of events and things that came together to give you this creative mind of exploration, of wanting to be an entrepreneur, of taking on new ideas?
[18:41] Jason Fried: Yeah, well, I like these questions, although I will say that whatever answers I'm going to give you, um, are just, of course, like manufactured because I don't know, nobody knows, uh, all the things that influenced them and the things they can remember are just the things they can remember. It doesn't mean that they're the things, right? Um, there were definitely some experiences that I'll recall that probably played a role. Um, but I think a lot of this stuff is, I think it's kind of baked into you somewhere, somehow. And and you have very little, you're just the kind of person who would react to a certain situation, you just primed for it, perhaps. But...
[19:15] Kevin Rose: I didn't see that until I had a second kid, by the way. When you have one kid, you're like, you're like, "Oh, this is like, uh, you know, you can, you kind of think you can mold them." And then you have a second kid, you're like, "Oh, that kid is completely different than my first." And there was none of my doing, you know?
[19:27] Jason Fried: Same, like, not the same, but almost the same genetic material, like really all like, and there's some random numbers in there somewhere, and they're just so different. So yeah, I I I it really did, same thing. Like I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, people just come out the way they are. I mean, of course, they're influenced by all sorts of things, but like they're also kind of already on a path.
[19:47] Jason Fried: I think so for me, um, what is interesting, I'll just, I put some notes down. So even though I kept talking about how much I loved looking at these data charts and whatever, I don't like data at all. I don't, I'm not a numbers person whatsoever. I am gut and intuition driven. I don't look at numbers, I don't care about numbers really. It's not my thing. Um, so I just, I like the way they looked though. I like the way they lined up. So it was more the art side of things, um, that I think was what, those were just like the, that was just the, those were just the shapes. It just happened to be data. Um, but I didn't care about the fact that they were data or they represented something. Anyway.
[20:28] Jason Fried: Yeah, I had a, I had a series of jobs that I did, definitely, I think, um, spotted some anti-patterns or anti-mentors, um, which is, and and some mentors. Um, I remember distinctly a few managers, uh, one, so I worked at the shoe store in in um, in my hometown, and uh, um, the the owner was totally distrustful, just did not trust anybody. And what was interesting was because of that, people just stole from her all the time.
[20:56] Kevin Rose: Wow.
[20:57] Jason Fried: Like it was like, "Well, F her." Like, it it was a fascinating because she kind of willed this to happen in a sense. Like, "I don't, everyone's going to steal from me." And you're right, "You know what? Yeah, everyone is because you don't trust us. So F you." Like we don't care about you, you know? Um, it was very interesting to see and I I fell into that behavior as well. Um, and then I had a manager who worked there who was just awesome and trusted all his employees. And I worked harder for him and I cared about him. And like, um, we we like took care of him also and and just like everyone was cool with him and he was cool with us. And I just kind of realized like, I mean, it was just a small sample size, but it was pretty clear to me that if you treat people like shit, you're going to get shitty behavior.
[21:41] Jason Fried: And and so whenever I hear about this today, like, "Oh, my fucking boss," and just like, or, "Oh, fuck this job," or whatever. I'm like, "Well, you know, someone higher up probably is making you feel that way, actually." You know, like, and and they're getting what they sort of almost deserve out of it because if they make their employees feel that way about them, then they're going to get shitty work out of them. I mean, that's just kind of how it's going to be. So I think it's really important to have a lot of trust, to treat people well, and to give them a lot of latitude and freedom, which is what Greg, who was my manager at the shoe store, did even though we had no right to have any freedom. We were 13, 14, uh, 15 probably at this time. Um, and I just, I don't know, I just performed better for people like that.
[22:22] Jason Fried: Again, I'm going to paint pictures that maybe aren't really here, but don't blow a good situation. They are so rare. And this might be why I've been in business for 26 years doing the same thing, which is like, we have, we we, you know, we're jumping way ahead, but like, we we, you know, got hit by lightning here in a good way. Uh, don't blow this. Like, don't screw it up. Like, I don't know how long it'll last, still things are still great. But like, this is good. This is good. I know so many people, and you do too, I'm sure Kevin, who've like had a great thing and then like gave it up and now they couldn't never have it again. So I think back then I even realized like, when you have a good thing going, don't blow it.
[23:00] Kevin Rose: That's easier said than done a lot of times. Starting a business is just, all you're doing from the second it's hatched is trying your damnedest to push out one more day when the doors eventually close.
[23:17] Jason Fried: Yeah, it's like playing keep up or something with like a balloon with your kids. Like, don't let it touch the floor. Like that's...
[23:23] Kevin Rose: Keepy uppy.
[23:23] Jason Fried: Yeah, keepy uppy, there you go. That's like, that's like what it is, right? I mean, of course, it's hopefully a lot more stable than that. You're not jumping over the couch and diving and injuring yourself. But but you know, basically, if you somehow found this this thing that you can keep afloat and you enjoy it, um, man, what a blessing that is. And don't blow that. And don't think that you can, I mean, look, everyone's different here. My my sense is like, don't think I can do that again because I don't know if I can, probably cannot. Yeah. So, um, you know, when you find your niche, like, enjoy it and...
[24:00] Jason Fried: Also, take care of people who are with you so they can have the same experience you can have. And, you know, go as long as you can and keep, you know, doing new things. But like, the the the shell of it, you should, you should keep filled with air as long as you can.
[24:12] Kevin Rose: Speaking about getting into kind of these businesses and kicking them off and and kind of holding on to it, uh, one that you, I don't think operate any longer, Audiofile.
[24:23] Jason Fried: Yeah. Yeah, not any longer.
[24:26] Kevin Rose: Tell us, so this was your software that you created when you're in college to organize your music collection. You put it on AOL. You charged $20 for it. An envelope arrives from Germany with a $20 bill. What was this moment like for you and what did you realize?
[24:41] Jason Fried: Amazing. I remember exactly where I was too. I was in my parents' kitchen and I got this airmail envelope with like the red and blue checks around the the border and it had my name on it. I'm like, "Who, who, what? What is this?" I don't know anybody, I'm like, "Do you know anyone in Germany?" to my parents. I'm the only child, so I'm like, "Do you guys know anybody?" because it's just the three of us. They're like, "No." And I opened it and someone had printed out like this sheet that I included with the software with $20 US crisp bill. And it it kind of blew me away. Um, and it was just...
[25:15] Kevin Rose: Why did it blow you away? What was it?
[25:17] Jason Fried: It wasn't the money. No, it wasn't the money. It was like, I think it was actually the appreciation of, I made something that someone else liked. It was like, you know, we all want to be liked, actually. It was more of a sign of, it wasn't me, he didn't know me, but like he liked this thing that I made. And that was like, wow, incredible. I made it for me, first of all, I didn't make it for anybody else, but I put it up there for other people to have and use and try and pay me if you want because that's what shareware was the thing. And um, and he paid me and it just, I don't know, it felt great. It felt great to be like, I can make something for myself, um, I can make something good that's that's worthy of someone else paying for it. And it's nice to be liked, probably, like, you know, the work is nice to be liked. So it's nice to be recognized in a sense. Um, and that was exciting. And then like more and more of those came in over time. And that was very exciting. But it's never ever been about the money. Like it just hasn't been. I just, I don't care about it really. I mean like, look, I I've done well and it's easy to say that now, but it would just never a motivation for me. Um, if anything, it was just like, um, a representation of doing good work.
[26:29] Kevin Rose: Mm.
[26:30] Jason Fried: In a sense. Like, if a lot of people pay for this, like, it's probably pretty good. And that's, that's the reward that like other people like this thing that I've made and this is sort of their way of showing it essentially in a...
[26:42] Kevin Rose: How when you, when you thought about, you know, launching these businesses, you said it was never about the money. I see so many people that when you're in venture capital, you get pitched these ideas and it's clear that it's like some ideas are from just the love of the game. And sometimes you have to say no to these ideas because you just know they'll never get to scale and they'll never really be the business that a venture capitalist wants to back, but it might be a fantastic business. And then you see the other side of it, which is they're so focused on the outcome that you know when times inevitably will just be insanely difficult, which is all businesses, uh, they probably, you know, your heart just falls out and you go on to the next thing and you're not in it. How have you thought about this in terms of the products that you go after? Is it always something that you have to have like a personal curiosity in? Like how do you, how does an idea actually cross your threshold to warrant your time and attention?
[27:37] Jason Fried: Yeah, it has to be something I want. It can't be like, "Oh, there's a market opportunity." Like that just drives me to zero. I could care less. I'm 100% driven by self, selfishness essentially. And like I have to be motivated to do the thing because I want the thing. If I don't want the thing, I it literally goes to zero for me. I just, I don't care. It's almost like you couldn't make me do it. I mean, if I had to, I I would, but I don't feel like it's rolling something uphill. I I always want to feel like it's downhill. And that's always when I'm like want something and then I can get closer to it every day by making it or working with people to make it and then having it. And then realizing, "Oh, other people probably want this too." Like I'm not some unique person. Like if I have this need, someone else probably does. And if I see it this way, there's enough people out there who probably see it this way. But ultimately, it has to be like something I want first.
[28:33] Jason Fried: And like, for example, um, the number one product request we get today is like, can you make another CRM? We used to make this thing called Highrise back in the day. Um...
[28:43] Kevin Rose: Yeah.
[28:43] Jason Fried: And it was like this very simple CRM and it's been a very popular product, like really, really popular product over the years. Um, and people want like another, we don't sell it anymore. We support it for existing customers who who used it, who paid for it, still pay for it. But we don't make it anymore for new people or sell it. Anyway, people have always asked us. And and like David and I sometimes sit there and go, gosh, I know there's like a big business here because, but we're like, I just can't do it. We just don't need it. We don't want it ourselves. And there's no way we'll be motivated enough to do it. And it wouldn't be any good. And we'd be doing it for the wrong reasons. And frankly, it wouldn't ever get done. It just, we'd fall out of it, you know? So it has to be, it has to be personal in that way.
[29:25] Jason Fried: And um, I think from what I've seen in the world, the best products are products that are built for the builder. The person, I have this incredible uh uh coffee grinder called the Monolith. I don't know if you've heard of this.
[29:40] Kevin Rose: Oh, no, I got to check this out.
[29:41] Jason Fried: Oh, dude. Oh my god. It looks like a, looks like a tele, it looks like a microscope. It's the weirdest looking thing. It looks like a scientific instrument. It's out of this, this guy, um, out of Seattle makes it. He like makes it himself. It's like, you know, machined out of a solid block of aluminum. It's just this super cool thing. And and you're like, this thing, there's no reason for this to exist in the world at all. It's expensive and like unnecessary at every level. But it's an enthusiast who made it for himself. And you're like, this could never be made by anybody else except someone who wanted it for themselves. I just find that those are the best products, period. Bar none.
[30:22] Kevin Rose: Oh, 100%. So have you seen the the man, uh, it's called Man Kitchen Pepper Grinder, Pepper Cannon?
[30:27] Jason Fried: No.
[30:28] Kevin Rose: Oh my god, dude. This is, this is, you have to watch the video. This is a pepper grinder made by someone that is so passionate about pepper that it is, it is like machined a thing of beauty. And you realize when you watch the video that this guy cares so deeply about fresh ground pepper that he has machined this thing to the nth degree and it's just absolutely worth every penny. It's amazing.
[30:58] Jason Fried: I got to check it out. I mean...
[30:59] Kevin Rose: But it's to your point, that's what, that's what it is, right? It's like you're building something because you want to will it into the world. You want to see it exist and you're the best person to do it.
[31:07] Jason Fried: That's, that's it. And it's like, I I just love buying things from people like that. I mean...
[31:12] Kevin Rose: Yes.
[31:13] Jason Fried: Because the other thing, like there's another, so my espresso machine is this thing called Decent Espresso. Do you know this? Probably not. No. Decent, you'll love this. Decent Espresso is this incredible espresso machine. They make them in Hong Kong, the company's based in Hong Kong. It has an Android tablet and it's it's basically this weird, super weird espresso machine, very opinionated. It can basically simulate any other kind of machine because you can change the pressure profile, you can change the flow, you can change the temperature. It's it's an incredibly interesting thing and a super unique product and super bizarre and weird. It's just weird in every way. And it's because the guy who made it wanted it. He's like, I just want to make my coffee this way. And he's a software engineer and he made it and um, it turns out they run their whole business on Basecamp, which is pretty exciting actually. But but but I didn't know that when I bought the machine. Um, and it's just so cool. It's so cool and unusual and there's just nothing like it. And I take great pride in their pride. I like to support people like that. I want to buy products like that. And I just love it. So anyway, I'm I'm super into that kind of stuff and I I want to bring that kind of stuff into the world too.
[32:30] Jason Fried: And I also recognize that those kinds of products are rarely, if ever, mainstream. They can't be because they're too quirky, too weird, typically too expensive, and very niche in a lot of ways or niche, but but that's why they're fantastic. And and I want to make stuff like that.
[32:48] Kevin Rose: I think that's the beautiful thing about independent and um and largely um almost restricted design in some sense. Like if it's done in a very opinionated way that is like you can just see the creator's touch and their hand on it. It's a, it's often times just, you know, maybe it's not the way you would have designed it, but that's okay because you you respect the person that's behind this, right?
[33:14] Jason Fried: Yeah, it's a delight and a surprise even, you're like, "Wow, what a clever solution that is."
[33:18] Kevin Rose: I want to play for you this clip. This is the first time I've ever done this uh on on audio in the software, but it's by Alan Watts, the philosopher. Um, and I want to get your reaction to it.
[33:30] [Alan Watts clip plays]
[34:40] Kevin Rose: He's awesome, obviously.
[34:41] Jason Fried: So the thing, the thing I actually like the most, to me this is why I'm such a big believer in gut and intuition driving pretty much everything because when you play, you don't measure. Now, you can measure your performance in a video game or whatever, right? And keep score and whatnot. But like you're, that's again like a a a side effect of of playing the game. Um, you don't play for that. You play and that that happens essentially.
[35:14] Jason Fried: I I feel like that should be how business is run too. Um obviously you got to make enough money to stay in business and all those things and that that's important. So you you, there's a little bit more that you have to do there to make sure it works. You can't just go creating things and losing your ass and because you won't be able to do that much longer. To me, what you want to do is you want to play in a way where you can keep playing. That is all business is about in my opinion, besides, you know, delivering something great. But it's being able to keep playing. This is what profit is. This is what being sustainable is. This is what being independent is, is allowing yourself to keep playing. Because if you like it, you want to keep doing it. And um the only way to do that is to is to ultimately make more than you spend. And that to me is is the fun part. That's the play.
[36:01] Jason Fried: Um it's also creating new things and doing things in a way that other people aren't doing them and and having a lot of fun exploring new things. It's just, I totally agree. And I actually, I the thing I like, I actually, I don't like business, to be honest. I don't like business. And I don't like it because it's typically defined as everyone's so damn serious about it all the time.
[36:22] Kevin Rose: Yeah.
[36:22] Jason Fried: Like, why? What's what's so serious? Like like where is it inherently inside of it? Like why why is it so, why does everyone wear different clothes when they do it? Why why does everyone use different language when they do it? Like what is it that's so different about it? And I don't think there really is anything.
[36:43] Kevin Rose: Do you think it, do you think it's external expectations? Like in in some sense, when you add on investors and you add on, you know, public markets and all of these things that get, you know, on on top of this once beautiful little nugget of an idea that, you know, you actually, I I want to quote something you said here where you said, "Small is not just a stepping stone, small is a great destination itself." Do you think that big means the play goes away?
[37:12] Jason Fried: I'm, well, I've never run a big business, okay? But I I've seen a lot of them and I know...
[37:19] Kevin Rose: By design, though. You could have gone big. You could have raised venture capital a thousand times over.
[37:21] Jason Fried: For sure. By design we've not done that. But so, but I'm saying experientially, I can't say that the fun goes away when you're big. But I I can say, uh, I've observed that it apparently seems to. That said, it can be a lot of un, it can be really unfun or not a lot of fun, um, small too. Like you can be struggling and it can be terrible, right? So there's probably fun to be had everywhere and a lot of uh not fun to be had everywhere too. For me, and this is just for me and and for for David, my business partner here, like independence is the highest value for us. We want to be able to do what we want to do, however we want to do it for as long as we can, um, and not, to your point, not have these external expectations. I mean, customers have them of course, and employees have them of course. But I don't want to be performing for someone other than that small group that we need to survive. Um, I I want to be able to, I don't want to have to ask permission. In fact, we we tend to do things where we, no one would give us, if no one would give us permission to do something, that's like the great thing for us to be doing. That's how we we look, we feel like we're obligated to be independent and obligated to do things people wouldn't give us permission to do.
[38:39] Kevin Rose: Couple other things I want to touch on. You know, you've been known for, uh, you know, in Rework and you've written a handful of books, fantastic books, really ahead of their time in in especially with remote work. God, you nailed that one like, I don't know, what, 15 years before it became a thing? It's like insane.
[38:56] Jason Fried: By accident, though. By accident. Yeah.
[38:58] Kevin Rose: But um, I I I want to touch, you know, you've talked a lot at length in terms of like, you know, your your the what you do for your business, but it it dawned on me that like, you know, you've mentioned this idea of not keeping to-do lists, um, you know, believing that if you can't hold it in your head, it's probably, you know, not worth doing or I don't know how you think about that. But also, you know, you've advocated for focusing, you know, these focused 40-hour work weeks, uh, and protecting your own attention. Do these apply to you on the personal side as well? And and then what also, what helped you formulate this? Like, why is this important to you? So many people would say, "Hey, 60-hour work weeks are where it's at, hustle's where it's at."
[39:36] Jason Fried: You know, I'm gonna bring it all back to the first thing we talked about, which was like learning how to design interfaces for BBSes with 40 characters, which is you kind of realize like you don't need that much. What do I need 60 hours for? Like, that's the question. What do I need 60 for? What's wrong with 40? 40's a lot. It's an eight-hour day, long time. You don't think eight hours is a long time? Like, go on a plane, go get on a plane and fly from Chicago to London and just sit there. It's eight hours. It's long. That's a lot of time. So if I do that five days in a row, like that should be plenty. And and then I want to do other things with my life because this is not all I do. Um, and also like frankly, there's diminishing returns at some point. And also, you're not really working the full eight hours really either. And like that's just enough. It's like enough, you know? And I just, I don't understand this like, there's, of course, there's always more work to do. Um, of course, but but but there's no end to that either. It's not like if you give yourself 80 hours, you'll be like, "Oh, I have nothing left to do." No, you'll go, "Well, if I only had 10 more or 20 more," right? So like, you know, where is the, where is the end to that? There is no end. So you need to put an end in place. We're like, 40 hours is plenty. We're not going to occupy people's time at work with meetings and other unnecessary things that take their time away. Everyone basically has an eight-hour day to themselves at work. They figure out how they want to spend it with their team. Their team's usually just one other person or themselves, whatever it is. And they just do their work and they go home at five. Like, that should be fine. Amazing things in this world were built that way.
[41:10] Kevin Rose: Yeah.
[41:11] Jason Fried: Why can't, and and everyone's like, "Technology and efficiency and productivity." Okay, then use it. Like, why are we all like using more and more things to make us more productive, yet we can't get things done in 40 hours? You should be getting things done in 20 hours, right? Like, isn't that where it should be going? So it's just enough.
[41:28] Kevin Rose: I find that, tell me if this resonates with you, but I find for me personally, if I have something that I'm chewing on on the creative side, it's actually when I shut the laptop and walk away and don't even think about it, but it's somehow sitting there doing cycles somewhere that an a better idea pops out the other end when I'm less stressed and less tired. Is that hold true for you as well?
[41:51] Jason Fried: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, in the shower or taking a walk or or whatever. Yeah, you need, you need to like release. And this is something I I wrote about this little thing because I I'm learning how to play drums. When when you learn a new instrument, I'm not very good. I play a little bit of guitar. When you learn a new instrument, you grip it really tightly. And that's why you're not good, one of the reasons you're not good at it. Um, is you're, and you if you watch like a really good guitar player or a great drummer, they're loose. You you need to like let go. You know, you need to let go to allow yourself actually to play better, to to do to do better. Um, and I think that that's very, very true in in the creative world, too. You cannot eke out the next creative idea. You need to get out, stop, and it'll come to you. You have to let it come to you. And I feel like the only way to do that is to stop, you know? And and these these ideas, they just they bubble up, obviously, but if you're so focused, you're just like actually, I think you're suppressing them. The more intense you are, the more you're suppressing them, of course. They can't find their way up if you're like under pressure. So I I do agree with that 100%. But I look, you need time to do your work during the week, but 40 hours should be plenty. It really should be. And so that's something we strive for. Hey, look, maybe one week it's 45, maybe one week it's 32. I don't know, but roughly 40 is plenty and uh and that's how we we ask of people.
[43:22] Kevin Rose: The one thing I wanted to circle back on is the trust piece because we we got into this world where you're now building companies, you're launching software. I mean, obviously, I had a ton of massive hits. When when you saw those those, you know, early managers that you experienced and some would give you enough trust to run with and and kind of go, you know, do your own best work, how do you think about a new employee finding someone that you can trust and then giving them enough of it to go run and execute without you having to micromanage them?
[43:56] Jason Fried: So, yeah, great question. I mean, we have a pretty interesting, um, like interview process, first of all. But let's say we hire the person. We kind of have, we stole this idea from, I think it was Tobi over at Shopify had this idea of the trust battery. Um, which is basically everyone has a trust battery. And, um, and we kind of start everyone basically at 50%. Um, so there's trust in there, but not like a lot yet. But we hired you, so we ought to trust you, you know. And then you build up the trust battery. Like you do more stuff on your own. Like we trust you to do more things. You you deliver things that surprise us, like in on the upside, you you get more. Um, you have great interactions with people, you get more. So it's not like we we don't keep track of this. There's not like a number anywhere, but like mentally it's like you start about half and then you can build up and you can also lose. So you have a few like bad interactions or you had some responsibilities which you dropped and didn't happen, like trust battery goes down a bit. And then, so if the trust battery is a little bit lower, you may have to manage someone some more. You may have to kind of check in more. You don't really want to, but you're like, what do I, I have to now because like the last two things I gave them like didn't get done right or didn't get done in time. And so you're you're basically paying attention to the, the way I like to think of it is is management is really the art of the individual. People think you manage groups. I I don't think you, there's such a thing, actually. I think like there's individuals inside that group that of course make the group, but you have to manage the people and each person is different. They're at a different place, they're at a different level, they're good at different things, they're bad at different things. There's things going on outside of work that you need to like, you don't know, but you can sort of sense and you got to give people some space or whatever it is. Um, but you just, you feel it with the team that you're with and the and the people you're with and some people need more guidance, some people don't. New employees, more guidance, primarily not like because you don't trust them though. It's more because you want some things to rub off on them. So you need to sort of be around them. But one thing we do with new employees is we throw them into work immediately.
[46:00] Jason Fried: So the the, there is no like, I've seen other companies where they have like a 30, 60, 90 day like on ramp. No. Like you're working on the real thing like the next week. After you get your laptop set up and like some of that stuff, you know, GitHub set up, all that. You're you're working on the real thing. We throw people into the work because that's, that's actually how they learn the most. They learn from the work. They learn from the people they're working with. We typically will match someone new up with someone who's been around for a while, so they'll get to rub rub off on them a little bit. And then that's sort of how it how it happens. But I also think there's a point where, um, you you realize that like someone's just not going to cut it. And and I'll tell you how we do that briefly, which is like, we look at the first year. We basically give everybody a year. And then at the end of that first year, we ask ourselves one simple question. So we don't do performance reviews, we don't like look back and a bunch of notes or have any like sophisticated system, okay? We just say, "Would we hire this person again?" That that is it. That answers every question. Knowing what we know now, would we hire this person again? Because that's what year two is. It's rehiring that person basically. And the answer is, you absolutely know the answer to that question. You always do. Um, and so that's that's what we do. Um...
[47:20] Kevin Rose: That's fascinating because you don't have to go through like commits to GitHub, you don't have to go through what design mockups do they produce or anything else. It's just like, would we hire them again?
[47:29] Jason Fried: You know because you're working with them and you're paying attention. And this is one of the advantages of having a relatively small company is like, you are aware of everybody. There's nowhere for anyone to hide. You know what people are doing, other people know what other people are doing. It's pretty obvious after the first year, like, is this company, like, have you made your mark? Are you doing good work? Do I want more of the work that you're doing? These are these very straightforward, simple questions you can ask that that answer every other question that you could have tried to, you know, quantify in some way. It's unnecessary. Just ask the question. So that's kind of how we how we do that. Um, and just to finish one other thing on on, you asked about like on the personal side of things, like I don't, yeah, I don't have like systems for, I try not to have to do too many things at once, basically, is what I try to do. And so I will forget some things sometimes that I'm supposed to do and that's sort of a sign that I'm saying yes too often. And so I'll try to like lower my yeses to get to the place where the things I need to do, I can keep in my head. And that that's what keeps me honest, essentially. If I can't keep it in my head, then I'm probably saying yes to too many things.
[48:34] Kevin Rose: You've written about this a bit and talked about this, this discipline of of no. Yeah. Um, what what criteria do you use for something to make it to the yes category? And then how do you elegantly say no to someone that desperately wants to hang out or wants your time or wants your attention and you're just like, this is too much. Like how do you get good at saying no? Because that's hard for a lot of people. That's putting up a boundary that's hard for a lot of people.
[48:59] Jason Fried: It is hard. Um, well, I I've made some simple rules. For example, I will not travel internationally for business. Unless like our whole company is going somewhere, but I will not give a talk. Like I was just invited to speak in London and Dubai, like some really cool places. I'm like, I just do not travel, I do not travel for talks for business far away. Just not, that's a no. And then my answer is simply like, "I I just I don't do international travel for business." Like I don't need, it's not personal, I just don't. So there's that. Like that's an easy way to do that is to create a rule for yourself, essentially. Um, there there's also other things like, for example, I try to think about when I make a decision, I try to think for some decisions like, how will I feel about this decision a year from now? That's another thing I tend to do and like if I think I'll feel good about it a year from now, then it's an easier yes.
[49:49] Jason Fried: I try not to say yes to things that are too far in advance as well. So, for example, uh, someone's like, "Hey, uh, can you do a podcast in August?" or something. I'll say like, I just don't book that far in advance. So I'm not saying no, I'm saying like reach out to me a few weeks ahead of time. And I recognize if your schedule requires more advanced notice, I just, that's just not how I I can do things. I don't know what I'm going to be doing in August, you know? So it it's, it's just like honest, it's just honest explanations, but you have to set up some rules for yourself. And then like if, you know, someone wants to hang out or something, if I'm friends, I'll it's always a yes to that as long as I can literally do that. Um, but business stuff, I tend to to say the further out it is, the more I just say, "Reach back out to me a little bit closer to that time because I can't make commitments that far in advance."
[50:39] Jason Fried: What I've found is that the further out I make a commitment, the more likely I will be to regret it. And I don't want to regret my commitments or I don't want to say yes to someone and then regret what I'm about to do with them. That's not fair to them either. So I've just realized that eventually, so I I just say like, "Let me know a few weeks in advance." I mean, frankly, like I'd rather know like the week of, but I know that's hard for people to schedule things. But...
[51:03] Kevin Rose: But like you asked me to do this like two days ago. I'm like, yeah. If you would have said, can we set this up sometime in in late July? It it never would have happened, by the way.
[51:12] Kevin Rose: Probably. Oh, I'm yeah. Oh, for sure. And then also I'm just way more on the fly. Let's do this. Let's go type of a person anyway.
[51:18] Jason Fried: So I'd rather just do it. So like I've had people like, hey, are you free for a podcast? Or and I'd say like, I am tomorrow. You want to do it tomorrow? And then and then like if they're like, no, like, you know, I's like, well, then let me know when you're when you're able to do it like within a few days notice because I will say yes, but you got to, I can't say yes that far in advance. So those are the kind of the ways I've I've figured out how to manage that.
[51:38] Kevin Rose: A few weeks ago, you had said yes and attended a semi-silent meditation retreat where we were both at. And I'm curious, why did you say yes? What's your interest in meditation? And how does that play a role in what you do?
[51:56] Jason Fried: I said yes because you asked me. And...
[51:58] Kevin Rose: I appreciate that. That's very kind of you to say.
[52:00] Jason Fried: It's true. Um, I have a lot of respect for you and to be considered for this thing, which which was a small group of of people in this special place, like I I felt very honored to do that and I'm like, I'm like, this is an amazing opportunity. So that was a a big yes for me. It took me a, I had to like make sure, it was a little bit far in advance again, so I like I had to like find a way to make the scheduling work. But um, but I also like, I mean, I'm not going to mention who else was there because I I don't know if people want to know, but like there was a small group of people, I knew a few of them. I knew the person who was leading the, you're free to say things, but I'll just hold, you know, not say...
[52:37] Kevin Rose: Yeah, Henry Shukman, the Zen master was leading the whole thing, yeah.
[52:39] Jason Fried: Yeah. And so I I've been listening to him on on Sam Harris's app, on Waking Up for a while. I really respect and and his app, The Way, I've been doing that. I I love his point of view and to be able to sit with him for a few days, I've never done a retreat before. I've always been interested in it, or interested in trying to do one. And this just felt like all the right reasons. Like, I've wanted to do one, I've never done one. I love Santa Fe, New Mexico. Um, that's where it was. The people who were going to be there are fantastic people. This just seems awesome. Like, wow. Um, and so, so it was a, it was a, ultimately an easy yes, even though I just had to like wait a bit to make sure the schedule worked. Yeah. But it was, it was wonderful.
[53:20] Jason Fried: My interest in meditation, I've been sort of on and off with it for a number of years. I kind of got into it with like Headspace initially. And you know what's very interesting, and I think I may have mentioned this to you, but um, even at this retreat, the first time I felt good about these sits was when you gave me your um little chair, whatever it's called.
[53:41] Kevin Rose: What's it called? Yeah. The...
[53:42] Jason Fried: Do you know what it's called?
[53:43] Kevin Rose: Uh, oh, the guy, I blanking on the brand name. Okay. But it's a traditional Japanese kneeling Zen chair.
[53:50] Jason Fried: Yeah. And it was the first time I've been able to sit for 20 minutes and not think of my body. The, and what surprised me about that because normally I'm sitting and I'm like, my hip is aching or my knee is off or something and I'm like just, I can't, I keep bouncing to those things and I just like don't like that. What was fascinating was I've never really heard anyone talk about it in in this way, like the value of really getting, people talk about getting comfortable, but I didn't realize what kind of a difference it could make when you're really, really comfortable physically in a place where you're going to be sitting for a while, how much of a difference that makes. Um, so that was kind of a revelation for me. And I I went home and I bought one of those chairs. I actually bought like a few because I wanted to try a few different ones and some bean baggy things, whatever they're called. Um, and I realized that like it's not that I was doing anything wrong before, it's that I couldn't physically get comfortable. And so then my mind could not relax in a way that was productive. So now I've been doing these 25-minute sits every day because of that, because like now I know how to sit. I know how, you know.
[55:06] Kevin Rose: What, you know, Zen promises so much in terms of, you know, this path towards a quieter-minded at a minimum and kind of more, you know, hopefully working it's way into our everyday life in terms of just having a little bit more grace as we carry ourselves throughout the universe. Um, but then there's the other side that goes deeper on, you know, this kind of like idea of enlightenment and further. Do you have much spiritual interest there or is that, is this just more like a a personal curiosity at this point and you're just like testing the waters?
[55:36] Jason Fried: I feel like I've had um an enlightenment style moment on psychedelics. And um I was like pretty certain that I had a very special moment um on that. So I feel like I've tasted that. And in some ways, I feel like I want to taste that again. And that's maybe a little bit of a problem because you're kind of like striving for something. And the other thing I learned through another another psychedelic experience is that this is actually a very, very important lesson for me, um was you don't get to have the same experience twice. You just, you don't. And it's good to know that.
[56:14] Jason Fried: I remember, I'll just, this is an aside and then I'll get back. But like I I I had this incredible experience this first time, this was on mushrooms. And then I did it again a few years later and I had this experience during this one song. And I asked the guide to play the same song for me at around the same moment the second time, or the third time I've done this. Anyway. So I'm, you know, I'm I'm in there and then I I kind of, the song comes on and nothing. Like the first time I heard this, I had this enlightenment experience basically, like truly, like, okay, I learned something really deep. Second time, nothing happened. And I remember it was the only, it was dead space. And it was the only dead space in the whole like five-hour experience. And at the end of the song, I just started cracking up because I remember being like, of course. Like, what a great lesson. Of course, I'm not allowed to do that again. I'm not, I can't have that experience again. I don't deserve that experience again. I don't get to decide when I want to have that experience again. I'm not owed that experience again. And that was a great lesson, actually, that you don't get to do those things again. Anyway, for now, for me, I just want to, meditation is just a way for me to to to settle down and to just be for a while. Whatever happens, happens. I'm not, I I would like to have some more, I feel like I'd like to touch that again, but then I remember like, I can't, I don't get to decide that. I didn't get to decide the first time I had that experience and I will not get to decide the next time I have that experience. It'll just happen. But I just need to be open to it if it happens. And if it doesn't, that's fine, too. But I do enjoy just sitting and paying attention. That, in itself, is enough for me.
[58:02] Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Two final thoughts. One, um, that seems to dovetail nicely into a post that you did on your HEY World blog, which is making it happen versus letting it happen. Was that somehow influenced by by this train of thought?
[58:17] Jason Fried: Yeah. I've I've just found that um the harder you squeeze, like the more elusive the thing is really. And and um you just letting, letting go and letting letting it happen, it's just, I don't know. I mean it's either it will or it won't. But I think there's a better shot when you just sort of try to let it something happen. And also the other thing about it, I'll say is that when you try to make something happen, it's incredibly specific. So it's very narrow. Like you're trying to make this thing happen. When you let it happen, it can happen in lots of different ways. And so in fact, there's there's more opportunity for something to happen if you just let it happen because it might happen in a slightly different way than you had intended. I find that to be a beautiful thing. And and actually like increases the optionality. It's it's richer when when when you don't try to pin it down.
[59:11] Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay, last question. Um, you know, you've also encouraged this kind of this curiosity about when you say, "what's still here?" And so this is the, you know, the ideas and principles that have stood the test of time for you. And I'm curious, you know, you're 26 years in the business now.
[59:32] Jason Fried: Yeah, 26, yeah, this year.
[59:34] Kevin Rose: 26 years in the business. Congratulations on that. It's huge, obviously, like to do anything that long and and have a massive enterprise at 26 years is is a huge accomplishment. But I'm curious, you know, what are what are a few of the ideas, you know, or principles that you have that are still truly enduring after 26 years?
[59:54] Jason Fried: Um, I I try to figure out what doesn't matter in a situation. Like that's just something that that's a a fundamental way in which I approach most things. Um, so it's it's like you could say, well, how about figuring out what matters? There's that. I feel like you got to do that, but you also got to figure out what doesn't matter. And then don't do that. I think that's like a really, I don't know, maybe it doesn't sound like a big deal, but it really is a big deal to make sure you don't do things that aren't worth doing. Um, constraints and keeping things as small as you can, keeping teams small, keeping the amount of time you have to work on something small. Um, having appetites instead of estimates. So this is another fundamental thing, which is like, when we do work at 37signals, we don't estimate how long it's going to take. We say it's going to take this long. Like, we're willing to, we're willing to spend three weeks on this idea. Um, let's figure out the three-week version of it versus like, how long do we think it's going to take? Well, it'll take as long as we give it. So like, appetites instead of instead of estimates is another core thing. Um, and then the other thing that I think is just like kind of get out of the way as much as you can. When you see people doing good work, like stay away. Like, don't, don't muck it up, don't screw it up. It's very easy to screw things up that are going well. Uh, and I think there's a tendency sometimes for people who are in charge to want to jump in in a sense and and like feel like they're part of it and take credit in a sense for it. But I like to step back. I like just be pleasantly surprised when things are going well and people are just killing it. Like, just let them go and don't even get close to it. Just let it roll as long as you can. So there's some, those are some of the things. Um, and actually one more thing probably is just like, I don't like to follow trends. I I don't I don't um, I don't think they're worth following. Like there's all we've, you and I have been around for a while, we've seen a million things come and go and and there's just always so much certainty um in the moment that this is the next big thing and this isn't the important part and whatever. And um I think seeking certainty is just unnecessary and and and um that often things just things do come and go and so you're better off like doing what you think really matters and not worrying too much about whatever anyone else is doing.
[1:02:22] Kevin Rose: Yeah, I love that.