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A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!
Coach Mills (00:00.892)
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new clear comps podcast today. We are talking about season eight. It's been about a week since season eight has been launched and there's a lot of drama going on behind the scenes that we will talk about like pros versus casuals, but we're being joined by two special guests. First off, returning guest Paz coming here for his goodbye episode from rivals. Cause those of you don't know Paz is Paz is leaving rivals for at least a little while.
Paz (00:23.886)
you
Captain Coach (00:29.175)
He's leaving us. He's quit.
Paz (00:30.094)
At least for a little bit.
ApexDabi (00:31.062)
Whoa.
Coach Mills (00:31.685)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's taking a step away and he's been extremely successful in Rivals, doing great. And yeah, he's taking a step back. But thank you so much for coming on, Paz. And new guest, Apex Dobby. What's up, man? I love your content. Some of the most entertaining TikToks on the platform. What's up,
Paz (00:40.78)
Yeah, thanks for having me.
ApexDabi (00:46.308)
How we doing? How we doing? What's up? What's up, dude? Pleasure to be here, man. Thank you for having me.
Captain Coach (00:48.783)
This is
Captain Coach (00:52.941)
Might be my favorite streamer right now, to be honest. Might be my favorite. My support streamer!
ApexDabi (00:53.7)
Thanks, man. OK, OK, OK.
Paz (00:55.511)
You
Coach Mills (00:57.402)
Yeah, the gla- this is the glaze podcast. The clear, clear glaze podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's really important because we ha- so Pads is also technically a support main. I mean, he did unrank the GM on every character. Yeah. But when he was actually trying to play this game, he was a support player. And the comments have been-
Paz (00:58.126)
Little bit of glaze, yep.
ApexDabi (01:00.196)
W Glaze, W Glaze, W Glaze, you gotta support your local streamer.
Paz (01:03.619)
the
Captain Coach (01:05.263)
But local support streamer, we got to support on the pod, right?
Paz (01:06.382)
Mm-hmm.
ApexDabi (01:08.792)
Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir, yes sir.
Paz (01:13.389)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:14.735)
Well, pass is everything, game.
ApexDabi (01:16.409)
Yeah.
Paz (01:16.64)
Little bit of this, little bit of that, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:20.291)
Yeah.
Paz (01:20.578)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:23.898)
hating us because we just don't get support players on the pod like they they just they're like where's our representation so so we we so so Dabi will speak for all of you okay in this pod this episode he is he is your representative
Captain Coach (01:26.371)
Ha ha ha.
Paz (01:26.742)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:33.942)
Yes. Okay, okay, okay. Wait, wait, wait. I'll speak for... Okay, wait, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:34.381)
Wait, wait, wait.
Tell us about your journey last season. First, just let them know about you and what you went through for season seven, because I think it'll be pretty good to start this off.
ApexDabi (01:48.576)
Yeah, okay, so a little background I started off as a support main in just about every game I've ever played And this is gonna be a deep lore cut. I don't know if you guys have heard of DC Universe online But that's what got me into like the support Like, you know the support role, right and I started out as a nature healer, you know All the good stuff, you know guild wars 2 I was a support main Overwatch drops I'm instantly a tank main
Coach Mills (02:03.119)
Yes.
ApexDabi (02:17.436)
I started off in the beginning of Overwatch as a support and then I went straight to Tank. Then when it came to Rivals, I was like, I'm a Tank hard at main, so played Tank and DPS for the first seven, for six seasons. You know, barely touched support here and there. First season on support, I peak Eternity.
Paz (02:30.274)
and
Paz (02:36.174)
Yup.
Captain Coach (02:36.995)
very first very first season and and
Coach Mills (02:37.392)
This is not this is not helping the comment section guys This is not helping the god. No We're so cooked
ApexDabi (02:39.554)
Yup.
Yep, hey listen listen. I'm And not only that I peaked top five white fox man Which Yeah, yeah Yeah, it wasn't like I did it with cloak or something. I really like I yeah
Paz (02:49.454)
It was White Fox though. There was some aura with White Fox. I gotta respect that.
Captain Coach (02:50.095)
I
Coach Mills (02:52.328)
This is so good. This is so good. I do feel like there's some good overlap with White Fox and Tank, because you know how to play Tank. White Fox, feel like lot of support mains actually had some trouble adjusting. You probably adjusted easier to her.
Captain Coach (02:55.834)
And just...
ApexDabi (03:03.308)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
ApexDabi (03:09.994)
Yeah. Yeah, because I play Thor, dude. I do it. It's like it like displacement king, dude. And that's what white fox is really good at is displacing tanks. And most of the white foxes don't even do it. They usually use their awakening state for, you know, getting out or just trying to survive. like, I, you know, Captain Coats can tell you I I do not live in my back line. I live in their back line. Like.
Coach Mills (03:13.864)
Mmm.
Coach Mills (03:34.792)
Let's go.
Captain Coach (03:35.063)
Yeah, you're like the Spider-Man of support players, I feel like. He'll just dive in and coin flip fights and he's like, fuck it, we ball. He just goes in and sometimes it won't work and when he doesn't, he'll definitely let the team know, like, you guys gotta be more aggressive.
Coach Mills (03:39.353)
No.
ApexDabi (03:39.415)
Yeah.
Paz (03:40.205)
Hahaha
ApexDabi (03:46.756)
Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah.
Hahaha
Captain Coach (03:54.787)
But, so I mean, obviously I like playing with them, but when it does, it's like, okay, like our support just carried the fight for everybody, abusing this broken hero, which by the way, wasn't even, I don't think, buffed when you were running it.
ApexDabi (04:06.518)
No, I did it pre-buff and now I don't die. Like I kid you not, I have a clip coming up that I'm working on. I won a 1v5, I kid you not. And I just sat there after it and I was like, this character is just not fair. Like if you're playing in anything I think below C1, the character just, I mean, she kind of just owns the game. Like if you're playing with even a, give it a little bit of follow up.
You just don't die. She puts out so much heals. It's crazy. And I think part of the part of the reason why characters like White Fox don't get a lot of shine is because they treat every support character that comes out like Invis or like Cloak or and it's the same, you know the parallel in in Overwatch, right? You don't treat Zenyatta like a Mercy. You treat Zenyatta like Zenyatta like he does damage. He
You know it's a complex kit same with rivals like rivals has so many complex supports Ultron people don't even know that he he amps damage like they didn't they think drone is just healing but know that amps abilities like There's so much out there in the support and I feel like we're just stuck in this either pata cake or he about tank or You know what I mean? Like they it's it's more of a they zone in on one target instead of actually like using their entire kit to make a play
Captain Coach (05:23.983)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (05:30.076)
Right. So do you feel like, go ahead.
Captain Coach (05:30.819)
Well, wanted to, well, cause I just, Paz, you play primarily deadlock now and I just, I just looked at Lomane's tier list and he says supports aren't even good in deadlock at the highest levels.
ApexDabi (05:31.116)
White Fox enables you when you do that.
Paz (05:38.595)
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
I mean, right now it's a can of worms. I could go on and on about it. It's like, I mean, I don't want to go on too much of a tangent and like go on off on it, but like support has a role in games. Like when an Overwatch one, like I really liked support cause I felt like it was kind of weak, but like you had to have a support like playing like, like Zen Lucio and dive. That was so fun. Like I'm going to die, die every single fight when I have a Genji and a tracer on me a whole, the whole time. But if I can live, I'm the goat. Like I win.
ApexDabi (06:12.461)
Yeah.
Paz (06:12.654)
But like when overwatch 2 came out, Kiri was like super OP. She still is OP. But I've started to realize why supports have to be so strong in these games. It's because like if support isn't like kind of broken sometimes, like no one really wants to play it. Like they have, especially in a MOBA, which I don't want to spend too much time on it, but like if the supports in a MOBA aren't super, super strong and like have this like crazy like healing capabilities or if things die too fast that healing doesn't even matter, it's like, why would I even play supports?
So like right now what Lomane is saying is like, why would I even play as supports? Like that could keep people alive if I could just go another like DPS Spirit nuke and just kill faster. And I think that actually is a really big problem with like what Dabi was saying with like rivals like supports as well. It's like people don't play aggressively on support like ever because a lot of the kits just allow you to kind of sit in the back and heal the whole game. Like Invis can heal and do damage at the same time, can self shield now too. So she doesn't have to think about shielding someone else and rotating to that.
ApexDabi (07:01.144)
Mm-hmm.
Paz (07:11.628)
She could just do it. So why do I even like, why even try to do all this crazy stuff? If I can just go heal on the back, I do like tens of thousands of damage and healing. yeah, good.
ApexDabi (07:14.904)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (07:19.72)
Do you, and this is to both Dabi and Paz, do y'all think that like Heroes Light White Fox being super strong, is that like the right direction for supports going forward? And that's the direction we wanna double down on going forward, right? Just supports that have.
ApexDabi (07:30.936)
Yes. Absolutely. Yes.
Paz (07:31.509)
I think so. Yeah.
Paz (07:36.502)
If that's what support was since day one, I would have been on Rivals since the beginning. Like I would have been on that train in beta.
ApexDabi (07:39.692)
my god. Dude. Bro, I... I don't think we would have as many cloak and dagger mains that just AFK heal bot. No offense, I understand I'm... Listen, I'm one of you. Dude, the amount of cloaks that I just see that never... Or sorry, the amount of daggers, not cloaks that I see, the amount of daggers that I see, they just maintain dagger form 90 % of the time. And it's like, yo...
Paz (07:49.134)
True. True.
Captain Coach (08:00.013)
Yeah.
Paz (08:06.688)
It's sad too, you can do so much damage with Cloak. Yes.
ApexDabi (08:08.004)
You have to anticipate the play, you have to make the play, your Veil amps your team, call it out, like they don't do anything, it's just dagger 90 % of the time and it's like great, you heal bot to GM1 or Celestial 3, that's great. But the moment you're faced with any kind of like, you know, somebody like a Daredevil, you're cooked. Cause you're so used to being comfortable in the backline that you can't make a play anymore. You don't press W, you don't fade away.
Captain Coach (08:34.125)
So.
ApexDabi (08:37.548)
Anyway, sorry, I get really passionate when I just see heal bots. I'm like, dude, you have an entire kit. Please use it.
Captain Coach (08:38.222)
The-
Coach Mills (08:39.56)
It is
Paz (08:42.56)
Me as well. Me as well. Yeah. Yes.
Coach Mills (08:43.048)
Right, but it is it is kind of interesting that like the past couple of supports were White Fox and Gambit like I think Gambit's probably in the same camp of White Fox where it's like you have to use your abilities proactively to live like you can't just you can't necessarily just exist
Captain Coach (08:44.249)
Hahaha
ApexDabi (08:55.972)
Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paz (08:58.818)
Yeah, you have to start by doing damage in the fight or else you're gonna get out cycled too. Like... Yeah.
Coach Mills (09:02.088)
That's actually a really interesting point, Paz and Dabi, like what if Gambit and White Fox were the heroes that we released in? Like way back when? Like that is the standard that supports were. And then, you know, like not like the, like all the heal bot like supports like Cloak, Invis, like none of these characters came out until like now or.
ApexDabi (09:03.001)
Mm-hmm.
Paz (09:10.059)
Ugh.
ApexDabi (09:14.256)
my God, dude.
Utopia. Utopia, dude.
Paz (09:19.886)
I just remember the first day I played Rivals, the first day I played Rivals, I remember I DM'd you, I'm like, dude, this Luna character is Zenyatta with more sustain, six second longer on ultimate, a stronger ultimate, gets it faster, does more damage without this, and I'm sitting here like, what am I about to start playing? yeah.
Coach Mills (09:35.24)
Yeah. Yeah. So for some context, a long time ago, so I've been trying to get Paz on the Rivals train for a very long time. Like I was on it early and the whole time he's grinding Super Vibe and I'm like, come to Rivals, come to Rivals. And you he was, every time he played the game, he's like, everything, all these characters are broken and he's a natural support main. So he's used to Ana's and Zen's. And yeah, so you started there. I finally convinced you to play. You grew, you know,
Paz (09:42.637)
haha
ApexDabi (09:55.907)
Yeah.
Paz (09:56.972)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (10:05.104)
Super successful in content, educated a lot of people, did unranked GMs on almost every single character. Yeah, we don't talk about those two. And now you just announced a couple days ago that you are officially leaving Rivals for at least the close future. You might come back at some point, but for now, you're taking a huge step back. What's the main motivations behind that as far as the game is concerned and the game balance?
Paz (10:06.094)
you
Paz (10:11.212)
We don't talk about Spider-Man and BP. I'm not doing that.
Captain Coach (10:13.709)
Hahaha
ApexDabi (10:14.45)
Not the Spiderman, no, no.
Paz (10:26.435)
Yeah.
Paz (10:33.844)
I mean, like, from season to season, I mean, I'm not playing at one above all, so like, it's a little bit different, but like, I just feel like the game just feels the same from season to season. Now, I know recently it's actually been changing a lot, and I like that. Like, I like that they're doing a lot of systemic changes, but it's like, I wanna feel the systems of the game all at once. Like, I wanna know that this is a different game. I feel like if I keep playing it month to month, stuff's gonna get like slightly tweaked, and it still is gonna feel very samey, even if it's not.
And like mentally I need to know like, okay, this feels different than what I played before, which I think why I don't want to write off rivals. It's like, I'm never coming back. But like, for example, like when you make such a big change with like the stun stuff, or like if you get stunned so many times, you eventually become like indomitable. At least that's what it's called in deadlock. It might be the same in this. I don't remember, but like tenacity. that like if you like that kind of change is not going to be good. The first season it comes out and I didn't play a lot the season it came out and I know that Hulk
Coach Mills (11:19.964)
Yeah, yeah.
Captain Coach (11:22.009)
Tenacity, yeah.
Coach Mills (11:22.93)
Yeah, it's the necessary.
ApexDabi (11:23.202)
Yeah, tenacity, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paz (11:31.821)
I mean you could you could talk about that guy could take Hulk was from what I heard like Completely unplayable like that character just doesn't work anymore and like that's the type of stuff that like yeah You're gonna have that like it's gonna be it's not gonna be good when it first comes out because it's such a huge change But that's something I would assume is gonna get iterated on within the next six months and then by that time I have six new characters. I have to learn I have six new guides. I got a right I have a I have a whole new landscape the game probably is gonna feel completely different And that was the big thing for me, but then also I just needed
ApexDabi (11:37.314)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Paz (12:01.28)
I something like Super Vive, I needed that competitive itch, I needed it, and Marvel Rivals I knew since day one it was not gonna hold me like that. And Deadlock, I just think it's got it. And that's not a bad thing for Rivals either.
Captain Coach (12:09.849)
you
Coach Mills (12:12.264)
So that's actually a segue that I wanna talk about. We're gonna start it off with Captain Coach after I give context. So there's a little context for those who don't have, or who have a life and don't spend it on X like I do. There's basically a war brewing right now about Devil Dino. So Devil Dino came out and day one, every pro on X was ranting about this character's broken,
ApexDabi (12:26.124)
News for the unemployed.
Paz (12:40.834)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (12:41.254)
This character ruins the game. I will not play scrims of this character, nerf this character right now. And every casual player is like, let's fucking go. We can play as a dinosaur. And there was such a huge disconnect here that, I mean, it's still going on. There's still a war about like, where is the game casual? Is the game competitive? Like the competitive players are thinking.
Paz (12:52.092)
Ha ha!
ApexDabi (12:53.048)
Yeah.
Paz (13:06.542)
you
Coach Mills (13:07.068)
We need to balance it around us. We play this game for a living and the casual players are like, fuck you, it's a rivals game. So first I'll talk to captain coach or captain coach, give your thoughts on the ongoing casual versus pro debate and like, what's rival's identity? we're good. okay.
Captain Coach (13:23.087)
Hold my beer except it's an energy drink. We're gonna put this over here. All right Okay, I need everybody to listen carefully look into the camp. You're watching Devil Dino is not overpowered. All right, there it is He is not he is not good these these pros they are freaking out over their job security Okay, because this is a hero that when you introduce to the game forces a very narrow play style to beat him
Paz (13:24.718)
Let's hear it.
ApexDabi (13:25.397)
shit.
Paz (13:30.286)
you
Coach Mills (13:36.048)
no.
ApexDabi (13:38.148)
Mm-hmm.
Captain Coach (13:50.093)
And when you opt into a Dino versus Dino matchup or Dino versus other tank matchup, it does devolve into a less skillful kind of just which team has a better comp to counter the Dino type matchup. But there's also a route where you can go. I mean, you could just pick solo tank Emma and then just run crazy poke into him and Dino can't play the game.
Yes, now you're forced onto a comp that maybe the pros don't want to be on and in the grand scheme of things, whatever, and their scrims are saying like, yeah, this comp can't work and can't win. But for the 99 % of players, Devil Dino's not, to me, he's like low S, high A. He's a good character. He's very obviously stat sticky, but really to me is only problematic for people who worry about playing this game for a job.
who I don't think we should be listening to, and Nettie's, for the most part, has showed that they feel the same way.
Coach Mills (14:48.872)
That's, Dobby, what do you think about, like, how should this game be balanced? Like, should it be balanced around pros? Should their input even matter? Or will...
ApexDabi (14:58.55)
I'm gonna say something that's hot here. Okay? Alright? Tin foil hat on here, okay? I know people are gonna be like, this guy's... First things first, I think that the pro players are playing a different game than us. In every video game, no matter what, pro players are playing a different game, okay? We...
Paz (15:02.444)
I'm ready.
Paz (15:20.078)
you
ApexDabi (15:21.698)
We might think we're playing Marvel rivals. No, they're playing they're rivaling Marvel's okay. Those guys are playing a different game It's different pace different strats. Okay, they're their aim looks like they're cheating That's to the average ranked ladder like player. They're good It's feel like they're cheating because they're just hitting every headshot Okay, well with that out of the way when it comes to a ranked ladder I know people are gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna say the words that everyone hates to say all right tin foil hat here
Paz (15:43.704)
you
ApexDabi (15:51.255)
Yo MN.
Coach Mills (15:53.359)
my god, wait, what? Where did that come from? No, no, this is why you brought him. my god, this. I just got ambushed. I just got fucking ambushed. Trojan horse. Holy shit. That's crazy. I'll you speak.
Captain Coach (15:53.967)
This is why I brought him on, Mills! This is why I brought him on! This is why on! This is Go go go
Paz (15:54.478)
Alright!
ApexDabi (15:55.458)
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on, wait, wait. I have something to back it up, okay?
I'm telling you I Listen listen listen listen hear me out. Hear me out. me out. Hear me out Okay Listen listen okay, so There is this thing that net is has been working on for a couple of years called and match now What do you what is and match and match is a different version of EOMN?
Captain Coach (16:18.446)
All right.
ApexDabi (16:34.102)
It's their version of EOMM. Okay, it's how they balance ranked games. The TLDR, everybody can go on Google, all right, use your phones, you got technology now. Go on Google and just look up N-Match produced by NetEase. It is fully published by them. You can just go look it up. They put out a PDF on it. They were legally obligated to put it out. It is their version of EOMM. The idea here is, and I'm reading for my notes, the idea here is...
Paz (17:03.256)
You're prepared.
ApexDabi (17:03.52)
Instead of predicting and balancing games around equal skill, it says what team ups and what team setups keep the players engaged the longest. That's what that paper, that's the TLDR, okay? Instead of going for, this is evenly matched, my god, there's six GMs on one team and six GMs, no, no, no, no. It balances, yeah, around relatives, GM, diamond.
but it also takes into factor how long can we keep this guy playing this game? And if you win, like that's why you see those wing, those like win streak wins and those loss streak wins. Everyone's feeling it, but it's, they're not gonna call it EOM because it's not EOM. They developed a different, like they developed a different standard, right? That's their version. So if it was actually bounced around skill,
Nobody would be feeling this way. Everybody would be in the rank they're in and they'd hop off the game immediately after reaching Celestial. Like, it's a free to play game. And free to play games have to have these kind of systems. They have to exist. They have to keep player retention. How else are they gonna get you to buy your 10th Luna skin in the Battle Pass if you hit the rank that you think you deserve and you hop off for the rest of the season? Like, what's the incentive?
Captain Coach (18:28.751)
It's all connected, Coach Mills. Sorry.
Coach Mills (18:29.416)
No, see like, but like, like, I don't want to, I don't want to, I'm trying not to yap too much, but like, just fundamentally disagree. Like I, like, I, like, I know, like, I don't, I don't want to disagree with you. Yeah. No, no, no. They didn't, they never posted this about being in rivals. It's not, they, they, they've made, they, they used to be a mobile game. This is their, this is their first, this is their first competitive game. You, you're, just assuming that's something they've made for
ApexDabi (18:30.658)
Like, it's all about money at the end of the day, like...
Paz (18:36.974)
you
Captain Coach (18:38.404)
Ha ha!
ApexDabi (18:40.024)
Yeah, but like it's they posted this like that they use this
Paz (18:41.166)
you
ApexDabi (18:47.106)
Right, but they don't, they don't legally obligate it to. They don't operate in the US. Why would they?
Right, but they've done this for every game that they've ever produced.
Coach Mills (18:58.126)
It mobile games, not a competitive game. Those games are not competitive. like, no, no. What you're saying is that, no, no, no. You're what you're saying is that a game has to you're saying that just a win and loss system doesn't keep people engaged. So like all the people that are engaged in Counter-Strike's ELO system or League of Legends ELO system, like those people, they're just not engaged even though the system's fair. It's like the idea is that like a real
ApexDabi (19:01.814)
I mean it might as well be a mobile game. Mobile games run on like the RO, the ROG Strix phone bro. You can play PUBG competitively on your phone.
Coach Mills (19:26.972)
rank system is engaging, inherently. And I'm not saying that there isn't some bullshit going on behind the scenes that isn't perfect. Like I've said many times, the rank system sucks. But I don't agree that a rank system can be straight up and people will still be engaged by it. Like it can just be honest, like just make the game balanced. At least players like myself, players probably like Paz that like want to get better and want to challenge ourselves. It's like, my problem is that the rank system has never felt that way. It's kind of felt like.
ApexDabi (19:33.976)
Yeah, every game has this.
Captain Coach (19:54.027)
as does it.
Coach Mills (19:55.037)
The opposite. It's like, turning me off to it more. Like, if this is trying to optimize me or engage me, it's not- it's fucking not. I'm- I'm- I'm turned off.
ApexDabi (20:00.716)
Yeah, but you're not the average person. That's my point. Bro, this is what we do for a living. So like, we're gonna queue up the game regardless. Right? But the average person, don't have infinite amount of time to spend on the game. So the time that they do have, there's going to be like mood swings. You're gonna go on that win streak, feel good you hit diamond one, right? You're gonna buy the battle pass, you're gonna buy your favorite skin. Right? And then you're gonna lose ten. And then you're gonna log on the next two, three days. Like, it's-
Paz (20:26.221)
straight to the gulag.
ApexDabi (20:29.772)
I hate to be that guy. It's always about money. Okay, at the end of the day, it's always about money. Like we give grace to these companies. I love you, GuanGuan. Thank you for giving me a partner. Okay, I'm just saying the truth here. Listen, this has to happen. It has, but bro, EA got caught doing it. They got sued for doing it and they didn't disclose that they were doing it. But they were doing it. They were fixing matches so that...
Captain Coach (20:33.313)
Now, be that guy. Be that guy. We need-
Coach Mills (20:34.408)
Why coach? did do
Coach Mills (20:44.04)
Cut him. Nah, I'm kidding. I'm just kidding.
ApexDabi (20:55.32)
People stay more engaged and buy every battle pass and buy every skin that come out and every heirloom like at the end of the day if a game is free to play they have player retention is at the top of like that's the top priority no matter what and their player base this is gonna string all the way back that's why they don't care about the pros the casual thing in base is what keeps the money in their pockets okay they're the ones that are funding
the 30th Luna skin, the Magneto getting the thigh skin, they're the guys that buying the skins, it's not the pros. The pro scene is kinda just an extra, right? That's just to support the community to give back and pro scenes rarely make any money. You'd be lucky if you're break even on the company side from the pro scene. So it's usually more for the community than it is to grow the player base. Sorry, ranting.
Paz (21:44.813)
That's true. That's true.
Captain Coach (21:45.753)
Yeah.
lot where we could go from here and Paz looks like you got to say something.
Paz (21:53.225)
dude, there's so much like right. I mean, OK, I forget what your first 10. yeah. The first thing was that pros are playing different game. I mean, that's not even a tin foil hat. That's just true. The bands are different. Ignite bands like I've always thought this. Why doesn't Eternity Plus have ignite bands? Why am I still playing this like stupid six band system that like it's not even the same game I would be screaming? I'm not. Why am I playing matchmaking? So I'm going to get heated because like now I can just say it.
ApexDabi (21:59.833)
Mm-hmm.
ApexDabi (22:15.427)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (22:20.258)
No, I agree.
Paz (22:21.462)
Why am I even playing matchmaking? Why do I even care? Why do I even try? Like that was the first thing.
Coach Mills (22:21.596)
That's a good point.
Coach Mills (22:25.64)
I mean that's, that's, that's... There's a lot of pros that throw games. Like, on-roster sign, they're just like, they're known for throwing fucking games. right, because they don't give a fuck. They don't give a single fuck. They just throw it.
Paz (22:29.294)
It's yeah, it's it's it was. It's it's really like the whole thing like I just felt like the whole thing with the we need more bands, we need more this, we need more that's like, why don't we just think like, OK, who actually cares about these bands? Can we like just have ignite bands and ranked or like something for the top level players? There's so much with that. Now, in terms of the EOMM stuff, look, my whole thing, I'm going to be in the middle of both. Whether you exist or doesn't.
ApexDabi (22:32.578)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (22:33.229)
It happened to me two days ago.
ApexDabi (22:35.523)
Yup.
Paz (22:59.32)
To me as a competitive player, like I quite frankly could care less, right? Because if I'm the GOAT, if I'm Faker, if I'm sorry for everyone that would watch this, if I'm Sypeh, dude Sypeh's top 10 every season. He does not care. He will walk in that ranked lobby. He will put it on the table and say, fuck it, I'm the GOAT. I'm gonna win anyways. Cause I know how to play Invis and I can shoot people. Like if you're the GOAT, who cares if you have five burgers on your team? You're still flipping the enemy team too. Like you're just the GOAT. And that's the mindset I have going into it.
ApexDabi (23:11.832)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (23:16.238)
Yeah.
Paz (23:29.292)
The problem I ran into is even if you remember all this and that's it's like, what am I even playing like for though? Like what is the end goal and ranked to win this game? It's like I just thought the pro scene it's so like, it's just it just doesn't have and I don't know what it is. It just doesn't like it just doesn't have the sauce to it. It just doesn't feel like the people care all that much about it. Nor do the people really get that invested. There's like no storylines either. Like I know the storylines between these players that are in the pro play scene.
I know who doesn't like who I know who Loki has been hating someone since they were 16 eight years ago in Overwatch I know that stuff I don't think anyone else in the rivals community knows like I was talking on one of my last streams about like Saipa was like a tier two Overwatch player He never got the chance to break into tier one He was always insane and like now is his big break and I was telling people the site pay story and people were like dude I Never would have known I just thought he was some random dude that was go to that games I'm like no these players have storylines, but like
ApexDabi (24:07.748)
I think.
Paz (24:26.894)
It's just they have been getting better with it. Like with the player cards in game. I think that stuff is sick, by the way. They're they're doing it well. It's just like a dollar short. There just isn't vibes to it. I don't know what it is, but I just needed more incentive to like it just doesn't feel like there's an incentive to be the best, which I agree with the selling skins and everything like that. It makes sense.
Coach Mills (24:48.348)
that's where the whole identity crisis really comes from. We'll talk more about EOMM later, I'm still not done with you, we'll talk more. But it's seemingly like the game doesn't really care about balancing for high levels, right? They're like mostly they just care about the casual crowd, selling skins, all that stuff, casual modes, whatever.
Paz (24:55.645)
Hahaha
Paz (25:07.822)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (25:10.898)
But then every once in a while they do random balance changes that are definitely tailored to the high ranked players. And then also they run tournaments with one million dollar fucking prize pools just like on a random Tuesday. And it's like, y'all don't care, but there's more money in rivals than like five more competitive e-sports, competitive e-sports, but there's like more money here. like occasionally they like, they'll do a nerf that just like literally.
ApexDabi (25:22.786)
Yeah.
Paz (25:22.818)
Heh.
Coach Mills (25:38.716)
doesn't make sense for anyone but high elo. Like it has to be at high elo, but it'd be like one or two changes in a patch that like, and then a whole bunch of random changes that are obviously for low elo. So I don't really know what, I don't know what's going on.
Captain Coach (25:41.007)
It's.
Paz (25:42.627)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (25:42.67)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (25:47.841)
if you take what Dobby said and apply the context to like the bigger picture and all the changes and Mills, we've talked about this on previous episodes. They're PR changes, man. Like minus two to like a cool down that like doesn't matter, like plus 50 health, the thing. It's just, it's PR for their high-rank community. Hey, we're listening, but yeah, sorry. Yeah. It's.
ApexDabi (25:48.824)
Yeah.
Paz (25:48.866)
Yeah.
Paz (26:01.752)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (26:03.741)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (26:05.64)
It's just the Obstix.
Paz (26:09.026)
They nerfed squirrel girl, let's go!
ApexDabi (26:10.307)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Captain Coach (26:15.863)
That's what it is. And when you think about it in that context, everything makes sense. It's like, yeah, they don't really give a shit about you pro players. So maybe you should. Yeah, maybe. To me.
Paz (26:23.63)
And they never did. That's the, they never did. And the money is, I could talk about the money part too.
Coach Mills (26:26.056)
But okay, okay, this is the toxic point I was talking about Captain Coach about this earlier. My thing is that like there's a reason why pros are trying to be pros here and they're not trying to be pros in other games is because it's easier to become a pro in Rivals than it is in any other esport. And it's like, if you really wanted a more competitive experience, like if you're a pro that wants to be a pro in Rivals, you have to embrace the fact that like,
Captain Coach (26:43.119)
And it's a bigger game to be fair. It's a bigger game to be fair.
ApexDabi (26:46.372)
It is a bigger game, yeah.
Coach Mills (26:52.324)
A new hero every month is never gonna be like really competitive. It's impossible. It's actually fucking impossible. mean like...
ApexDabi (26:56.663)
Yeah.
I genuinely think they're gonna slow down. There's no way they can keep this up because they're gonna run into the League of Legends barrier where now you need six bands for both. Like, no, I'm being serious. Dude, there's like 7,000 Marvel rivals, heroes, and villains that can just keep, like, there's no way they can keep this up. would...
Paz (27:04.024)
I was thinking that.
Coach Mills (27:09.0)
Yeah, no, no, yeah.
Paz (27:09.838)
Yeah?
Captain Coach (27:10.607)
You're... No.
Paz (27:14.243)
Hey
Captain Coach (27:15.695)
You're 100 % correct.
Coach Mills (27:18.396)
They said they want 200, they have 200 planned, like roughly planned, 200 heroes already. Yeah.
ApexDabi (27:21.258)
Yeah, which is insane. that's- that's- that's- everyone's gonna get their own personal ban now no one can cry that they're, you know, moon knight! No, moon knight's in the game! Like-
Captain Coach (27:23.908)
There.
Captain Coach (27:28.501)
Yeah, right.
Paz (27:28.524)
haha
Captain Coach (27:32.077)
Yeah, give the players more power. They will come. Yeah, there will.
Coach Mills (27:33.204)
That character hasn't been good since season 6 fuck you it's like 36. It's like season 100 like
ApexDabi (27:35.87)
Yeah, we're gonna be on like season 50. It's still gonna be banning moon night and Bucky
Captain Coach (27:39.843)
They... No, their fun maxing is what they're doing. They are absolutely prioritizing even, like, I would say they're already prioritizing fun, but they're going to, like, the next level with that shit. Like, they are prioritizing player fun over balance, like, times five. So to me, like, you mentioned more bands. Yes, great, because every major esport that's still around right now, not including Valorant, because Riot Games, I think, had the...
Paz (27:47.992)
you
ApexDabi (27:53.911)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (28:08.375)
the money and resources to really prop that scene up. I think Valorant, correct me if I'm wrong, is doing pretty well, started as a grassroots movement. this is a message to all the pro players, all the higher ranked players who watch us talk about EOM and our, you know, whatever eternity, low eternity balance instead of like whatever you want to see in the game. You know, grassroots, make your own tournaments with your own rule sets, show Nettys how it's done, ban certain characters. I mean,
ApexDabi (28:11.736)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (28:16.516)
Mm-hmm.
Paz (28:35.053)
you
Coach Mills (28:37.66)
That's true. You could come up with your own rules. Yeah.
Captain Coach (28:37.817)
Pokemon! Pokemon's been around for 20 years and people still have tournaments that they set up that they battle and they have all sorts of rules that they set up. So if you really want it that bad, don't rely on them to make the changes for you, do it yourself. And that is how all the top e-sports scenes, League of Legends, I would say Overwatch is a failed e-sport because Dota 2.
Coach Mills (28:42.12)
That's makes sense.
Paz (28:59.511)
We gotta say Dota 2. Dota 2 is the eSport. That is the money. Yes. Exactly.
ApexDabi (29:01.732)
dude Dota 2 has the best system for esports they take their battle pass stuff and whatever they make money and they split it like I don't even play Dota 2 and I know that like because they're wealthy over there like have ever seen the Dota 2 players? I saw a list where like one of the top players made like 7 million you took home 7 million that's just one guy and I'm like damn they're getting paid nice
Captain Coach (29:06.765)
Yes.
Coach Mills (29:10.034)
Shout out Speed.
Paz (29:11.329)
Mm-hmm.
Paz (29:14.806)
Yes.
Paz (29:18.635)
millions.
Yes. huh.
Paz (29:29.229)
That's thing that I always bring up when people say, Rivals has all this money. They have all this money in the pro scene. Look, like a million, look, a million's a lot of money for a prize pool. Dota 2. Look at Valve games, look at League, look at games that were meant for the guy that quit his nine to five and is playing this game all day every day. That is the esport.
Captain Coach (29:55.279)
What the?
Coach Mills (29:55.529)
Well, but the thing is like those games have been out for I mean fucking decades, but that's it But I feel like people are trying to jump the gun on rivals eSports like like even the even like like I'm just gonna say like let's say I give you I I give you some of the EOMM stuff like I don't 100 % agree with it But let's say I give you some of that and then I give you some of the balance bullshit and all that stuff There's no reason why they can't swap out the rank system with a more competitive one later on There's no reason why they can't institute more competitive changes in eternity plus later on
Paz (29:58.734)
I mean, yeah, they've been out for years. It's not like a fair comparison, you're right.
ApexDabi (29:59.173)
They're like decade long games, yeah.
Captain Coach (30:05.359)
That's force.
Paz (30:06.422)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (30:25.586)
There's no reason why they can't balance for the high level later on. Like they don't have to do all that stuff. You know, frame one, year one, year two, like, especially because. The only my thing is the only thing that matters is that your game doesn't fucking die. I've said this a lot and my my my proof is fucking super vibe pass the game that you were pro in the best fucking player in the world and it died. It didn't matter how competitive that game was because they couldn't keep people man.
Paz (30:33.153)
Do think that'd be good for the game though? Do you think that's really what Rivals should be?
Paz (30:41.537)
then I would never do that with rivals.
Paz (30:48.971)
Yeah.
Paz (30:55.129)
Well, there's a lot of can of worms with that
ApexDabi (30:55.268)
Okay, but they're, hold on, hold hold on, hold on. That's unfair and I'll, hold on. Marvel as an IP, it, okay, this is a larger problem of why people currently hate the game and why they're like leaving and then coming back and then leaving. Marvel as an IP attracted so many people from different walks of life that have never played a hero shooter. Okay, so like think about all of the...
Coach Mills (30:55.366)
The game just fucking died!
Coach Mills (31:00.927)
Okay
Paz (31:03.884)
haha
Paz (31:19.031)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
ApexDabi (31:22.378)
You know, the Call of Duty bros, the Valorant bros, the CSGO bros, they've never played a hero shooter, right? And they're like, my god, I get to play as Venom? In a hero- like on a 6v6 PvP ranked? Yeah, they're gonna hop on the game, they have no idea what's going on. You tell them to kite and they're like, they think that you're going to the park to fly a kite, like they have no idea what's going on. Right? They don't know the terminology, bro, they know to grab like a, you know, a-
Paz (31:26.381)
True.
Coach Mills (31:32.2)
Yeah, let's go.
Paz (31:33.075)
No way!
Coach Mills (31:43.56)
You
ApexDabi (31:50.308)
a P90 and just run it down. That's their gaming. That's all they've ever known. So I think that's why Marvel, Rivals specifically, didn't die where Paladins died, right? And Team Fortress 2. They all have a shelf life. But Rivals is an IP. I mean, it's backed by superheroes.
Paz (31:53.762)
True?
Coach Mills (31:54.44)
The good old days, yeah.
Coach Mills (32:05.544)
Hmm. So you're basically saying that it wouldn't have mattered whether they were competitive or not. They would have still retained players. Is that what you're saying? But if that's true, then why the EOMM system? If that's true.
ApexDabi (32:13.174)
Yeah, they would have re- yeah, I mean, they're gonna win regardless.
because it's a free to play engagement. need to, because people need to feel like they've accomplished something. For me example, I'm gonna talk about myself, right? I don't play quick play because there's nothing at the end of the road. I don't get a badge. There's nothing that displays, wow, I played X amount of quick plays, right? Yeah, I play ranked because it gives me that tiny badge that no one looks at, right? Also, I wanna, this is a gripe with rivals. Can we like...
Paz (32:18.893)
This dude...
Captain Coach (32:20.015)
The- that is-
Coach Mills (32:20.26)
I'm just saying, because that conflicts.
Coach Mills (32:35.43)
I mean, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. don't play that shit either, yeah.
ApexDabi (32:46.948)
Can we give something for the rank chain? I hit eternity and I got like a tiny, you know, it's slightly bigger now. Like it's shiny and it's slightly bigger. Like damn. I get a crisp high five, like a nice little dab up, like good job. And then like nothing, no one knows that I hit eternity.
Coach Mills (32:49.784)
you're s- yeah. Good job, buddy. Good job, buddy. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean shit. Yeah.
Paz (32:55.757)
you
Coach Mills (33:04.22)
Yeah, if they gave us something sick for reaching every rank, like something progressively cooler, you know, like imagine a piece of, like a, I don't know, a clothes or some type of shirt you could wear, like the Deadpool shirt, but it's like, it has like pins on it, depending on like what, you know, what rank or like bandage, just something visual.
Paz (33:05.869)
you
ApexDabi (33:09.027)
Mm-hmm
ApexDabi (33:18.326)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know how you know how like Apex did dive trails, right? Something cool that I can use in game to display that, I actually reached this rank, right?
Coach Mills (33:24.39)
Ooh, like that.
Coach Mills (33:32.041)
Well, they basically gatekeep, I mean, they don't give that to, they only give it to you if you're in gold and you can get to gold with just the cards. It's basically like, if you just play enough, you can just get the skins and that's it. They don't do it for high rank players, which, all right.
Captain Coach (33:33.295)
Have you hit? Have you hit?
Paz (33:40.461)
you
ApexDabi (33:42.178)
Yeah. Yeah.
Captain Coach (33:48.951)
If you hit Challenger in League of Legends, you get a real backpack, a real one in real life, because you're carrying, right? That's the joke. Yeah, actually.
Paz (33:54.658)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (33:56.804)
Okay.
Coach Mills (33:57.281)
yeah? nice. Yeah.
Paz (33:59.064)
You also have to put about, mmm, maybe 4,000 hours of your life at least into the game. Respect though.
Captain Coach (34:03.412)
yeah. yeah.
ApexDabi (34:03.524)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (34:03.848)
Yeah, if you if you end like top 10, they should like send you a little trophy like season one like it like just mail it to your house season one top 10
ApexDabi (34:09.252)
Yeah.
Paz (34:11.873)
I mean, when we're talking about this though, are we like trying to say we want Rivals to be this competitive game? Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (34:17.266)
Well, that's kind of the thing is like, what do y'all actually, what do y'all think is right? Cause I know on this pod we've complained about balance change. And I think it's, there are some balances that we just feel like make the gameplay loop unfun. Like we talk about it VIZ a lot, but there's other characters too, Jean, tanks, know, maybe some people think it's Dino, but like unfun gameplay loops. And then there's also.
ApexDabi (34:31.191)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (34:41.832)
Does that argument, and then there's like the pro unfun gameplay loops, like they have a very unique experience. So like, does ours matter as like high ELO players, but not pros? Or does ours don't matter at all? And the pros don't matter. Like what actually matters as far as like balance? Like what do y'all think?
Paz (34:58.049)
I mean, for Rivals, now this is a skewed opinion, but I mean, the game has to be fun and has to make sense. Like, I think no matter what, even if you want it to be like a competitive game and you want it to have like this big e-sports circuit, like the game still has to be fun. And the way that you have to achieve that can be in different ways. For Rivals, I think they have nailed the whole thing where you're playing with the homies. It's 10 p.m. on a Saturday night, you got two hours, let's run, let's be the Avengers, man.
Coach Mills (35:26.008)
Yeah, right, right, right.
Paz (35:26.125)
Let's run it down as the Avengers. And that's like the feeling that you get. It's the IP. It carries really hard. I mean, it's a solid game. I still like playing it for fun. And I think that it's really good for that. And I think if you go and try to add more depth to it and you try to make it super sweaty, the player base that plays rivals, they probably wouldn't like that. They say the game's super competitive. You're just bad pass. You suck. You've never gotten to my rank.
ApexDabi (35:26.265)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (35:43.789)
Yeah.
Paz (35:48.438)
I have actually, you just haven't watched my content enough. It's just like, you know, it's not gonna, if you actually added that depth, you would not like it. A lot of these players would not like it. Now that does not mean that if it's a really simple game, you can't be the best in the world, because that's still really hard no matter what game you play. It's still really hard to do that. It's just not the game. I think other games, they achieve, like their core like selling point to you is this game has a lot of depth. This game makes you wanna like study it.
and makes you have to like, you have to use custom tools and learn before you play. And that's the value proposition of other games. That's like Deadlock. They're competitive games because you have to put more into it. And that's like, that's the fun of it. People have fun doing that. I know that's crazy to think about for a lot of Rivals players. You have to read the Wiki before you learn a character and play it. I know a lot of people don't like that. And if that's what Rivals becomes, I think most people wouldn't like that. The pros would.
But when you went to Marvel Rivals and you signed up to play this game and you put hundreds of hours in, you knew what you came for. You came for Luna Snow with 12 seconds of transcendence, double that of what Zenyatta was. You knew day one. You knew it. But you're now getting paid to play it, which is pretty cool. But you knew what you were signing up for. And I think this game should not go super crazy competitive.
ApexDabi (36:54.945)
Yup.
Coach Mills (37:01.437)
That's actually interesting.
Captain Coach (37:03.151)
I mean, that's why I said custom rule sets, grassroots. Like you look at another example, the melee scene, they have rules for specific play styles that are just are not allowed melee, like a 20 plus year old game. The wobble for those of you guys who know about ice climbers in that game. I don't see why we can't live in a world where the pro scene, I do, you mentioned earlier, a separate queue for ranked or like high level ranked or whatever.
Coach Mills (37:05.372)
That devils bargain.
Paz (37:06.829)
Yeah.
Paz (37:12.865)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (37:19.837)
yeah, of course, yeah.
Paz (37:20.151)
Yeah.
Paz (37:31.021)
Yeah
Captain Coach (37:32.159)
I don't think that's gonna be good for the game either. But yeah, like, I mean, you saw the, what was it, No Damage Rocket had a tournament where they didn't do primary fire. You know, obviously that was more for fun, but something along those lines where you have custom rules set, that's gonna be the future of the eSport if the pros will it to be so, in my opinion.
Paz (37:34.326)
Okay, yeah.
ApexDabi (37:38.796)
Yeah, yeah,
Coach Mills (37:41.234)
Yeah. Great.
Paz (37:43.169)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (37:50.158)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (37:50.195)
Wouldn't that be crazy if, like, on Hero 200, they just say, balancing for pros, here's like a workshop system where you can tweak the health and damage numbers and cooldowns numbers for every character and run your own custom game, and then there's a pro scene that operates on their own rules, and then they just no longer, they just only balance for casuals from then on out, and just add cool shit, and whenever a new broken character comes into the game, they can just like.
like pros can just look at it, they tweak the numbers until they're happy internally and then they just like, like pros play in their little box. I mean, I don't really know if netties would ever wanna give away that much power. Like that's kind of the problem. And it also, yeah. That's another, well, that's the thing is like, right. Yeah, that is, that is tricky. mean, but that, mean, that's kind of how Counter-Strike does it, right? They don't, they have their own ranks, like outside of client, right? Isn't it, face it, right? That's like.
Paz (38:29.077)
I play ranked though then too like why would I stream and like why would I care as a normal player then too it's it's tough
Captain Coach (38:36.18)
It can't.
Paz (38:41.367)
Yeah, they face it. That community is different though too. They would be willing, like that's a community that's willing to go the extra mile to have that extra like competitive integrity to it. like, rivals just, I don't think they care. And I don't think that's a bad thing by the way. I don't think that's necessarily bad either to not have like all this competitive integrity stuff.
ApexDabi (38:47.726)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (38:58.546)
Yeah, mean, pros are trying to have their cake and eat it too is kind of what we're getting at, right? yeah. And I remember pros bitched a lot about meta's never changing and nothing new ever being added into the game. And it's like, this is the opposite. We have constant new shit, but there's a cost to that. Like you might've just spent the last two weeks straight grinding Psylocke in ranked and that character is completely irrelevant tomorrow.
Paz (39:03.723)
It was the same thing in Overwatch. We would bitch and complain all the time in that game.
ApexDabi (39:03.908)
Yeah.
Paz (39:12.94)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (39:16.44)
Yeah.
Paz (39:24.589)
you
Coach Mills (39:26.768)
and you feel like you wasted your fucking time, well, yeah, that sucks to suck. Or you might be like the best Venom player in the entire world and then they just got the character and now you're like maybe a D tier pro and you're pissed off. But like, at least you're, it's always evolving, there's always new shit. Like you just can't have both. Like I think we kind of all agree there is like you just can't get both.
ApexDabi (39:27.076)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (39:36.088)
Yep.
Captain Coach (39:49.259)
Hopefully they don't watch this so can keep rage baiting them on Twitter. That's just free impressions, man. We can talk about Dino now, think. I got that Dino lights on, bro.
Paz (39:52.397)
I respect the hustle. Yeah
ApexDabi (39:56.071)
man.
Coach Mills (39:59.273)
But, we're going go on camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we're rotating to Dino. yeah. How do you feel about Dino, Dobby? How do you feel about that release of the character?
ApexDabi (40:12.716)
I... Okay, so at first, I know a lot of people would always come in and say, Dino, or at least... I don't care about the character. Like, I don't know... I have no attachments to the character Dino, right? But the character in game, like, as like a playable character, I think that was one of the best decisions they've ever made. I didn't think it was gonna amount to anything, I'm gonna be honest. I was like, it's just another throwaway, right? I felt like it was just like another like Jeff kinda, you know?
Paz (40:28.439)
People care.
ApexDabi (40:40.694)
An unknown, not an unknown, okay, before the comic people come up, like, you don't read the comics! Yeah, I don't read comics, I apologize, okay? Alright, but I used to. I digress. Yeah, it's like, think Dino is perfect, it's these like, these weird characters that normally would never have the limelight, get the limelight, right? Which makes the game more engaging.
Coach Mills (40:45.16)
How dare you fucking say that's not Jeff.
Captain Coach (41:02.531)
Yes.
Paz (41:05.773)
you
ApexDabi (41:07.364)
You're like, what is this? Did I just see a dinosaur stomp me at like like you you're you're curious as a non-rivals player like I I need what is that I need to play as that thing right? So it just they need characters like this once in a while So then when Cyclops drops it hits that much harder, right? When the Sinister 6 drop Doc Ock Sandman like they're gonna hit so much harder
Paz (41:10.605)
you
Coach Mills (41:11.374)
What the fuck?
Yeah, that's actually true. That's a good point.
Coach Mills (41:31.08)
All at
ApexDabi (41:34.668)
Especially with the timing of doomsday like they're gonna drop doom on doomsday like we all know this because they're there It's gonna be crazy like the rivals you you know the universe you know and on twitch and Twitter They're gonna lose their minds like my god Did you see doomsday and you get an exclusive skin if you go watch it in theaters? And it all comes back full circle right so I think dino you know not my favorite, but I think he's great for the game
Coach Mills (41:39.462)
Yeah, that's gonna be so sick, bro.
Coach Mills (41:49.8)
That's a new come back, Pes.
Paz (41:59.682)
was lowkey pissed when I saw that a dinosaur got out of the one season I choose to leave. I was like, you're telling me I could have played as a dinosaur and been screaming on stream? I was kind of upset. That's all I know about Dino though. I have no clue what he does.
ApexDabi (42:03.108)
Yup.
Coach Mills (42:04.824)
I think like
Captain Coach (42:05.655)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
ApexDabi (42:08.779)
Yeah, yeah.
I mean that's what me and my my friends all run like me and the boys like we just do stack now and we're just running dino and Punisher and it's like the most fun we've had in ranked in a long time and Like you can easily counter it just go Wolverine and like you'll be fine, right? They buffed. I don't know why they buffed him We know why the pros but they they buffed like certain characters like, you know Wolverine and and what's her name? Moon Knight and what's her name? No, the Phoenix Phoenix got and she's like
Paz (42:19.437)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Coach Mills (42:23.645)
that
Coach Mills (42:33.584)
Yeah. Moon Knight is reasonable.
Phoenix. Yeah, like. So I was actually like, I'm sure like if it's min-max perfectly, like I get why the pros dislike it. But there's two things I don't quite understand. Number one, if it's this fucking broken, just ban it. Like just fucking ban. We have six bans for y'all. It's a pro. That's high-ranked players are the only people that care about bans. like myself included, like we like bans, but like.
ApexDabi (42:41.444)
Permaband, now Phoenix is like not playable. For Dino, it's, yeah.
Paz (42:43.783)
Why would they ever buff that character? I guess, yeah.
ApexDabi (42:59.948)
Yeah, it's that easy. Yeah.
Paz (43:01.325)
you
Coach Mills (43:09.264)
like not having bands is super casual. like bands are competitive. And the other thing is like, there's a lot of ways to abuse Dyna. Like the more you think about it, like, I mean, his head box, his head is huge. Like Mantis can get free charges off of it. Gene can light sparks. Like even characters like Moon Knight, Squirrel Girl. Like one of the things you could think about is like a comp that's always been in the game that people hate and it's played in pro play is a triple tank, triple support bunker.
ApexDabi (43:18.756)
Mm-hmm.
Captain Coach (43:19.659)
Yeah. There are.
Coach Mills (43:38.665)
where you like stall an objective, then when you get wiped, you pour back and keep stalling, right? The way that pros broke that comp up is like Storm Punny with like a triple DPS. You just like, you just have like this crazy amount of damage. It works the same way. But to me it's crazy how like, most people are having your experience, Dabi, where it's like the most fun. And then like they just go to Twitter and it's just like pros raging like an hour after release, like, fuck this hero, delete this hero. Yeah, yeah, of course.
ApexDabi (43:51.607)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (44:04.942)
Can I, can I add one more thing? Just to shit on the pros a little bit more. Just to, and I do want all the smoke, I really do. Because like they are just entitled, they're just so entitled. If you guys are tapped into the Apex scene, right? There's a team called Furia who came out of nowhere and played the most backwards comp that they should not have won anything with and they wiped the floor.
Coach Mills (44:09.672)
Okay.
Paz (44:32.31)
you
ApexDabi (44:34.872)
I think they went Maggi, Fuse, think Seer when Seer was meta, right? But they were like, everyone was looking at them, they like, there's no way they're winning. Because everyone was running Gibby or Caustic, right? Everyone was running the exact same, like relatively, or Watson, all running the same comps. But this one team played off meta and just wiped the floor with meta. And from that moment on in Apex, no character has been ever treated like, it's just a throwaway character.
Paz (44:45.036)
You
Paz (44:55.372)
you
ApexDabi (45:02.936)
Like the pros really go, they're like, let's try it. Like, let's just try it. You never know what could, like playing off meta has been such a demonized thing where it's like, if you're not playing meta, then you're losing. And it's like, I understand you're trying to maximize to win that one million. I understand. But at the same time, we forgot how to have fun in pro scene. And I think a team like Furia, especially in Apex, never again was an off meta character ever challenged. They're like, no, it's, they could.
They could win with that. It's not about how good the character is, it's the person behind the character.
Captain Coach (45:37.211)
I mean, that's the most hype part about esports is when somebody breaks through and finds a way to win with something that's not viable. I'm thinking of the Hugo main for Street Fighter III. I'm drawing a blank on the name.
Coach Mills (45:37.584)
I, yeah.
ApexDabi (45:45.387)
Exactly.
Paz (45:53.044)
I never played a fighting game in my life. I'm terrible, so I can't help it.
Coach Mills (45:54.596)
Yeah, yeah.
Captain Coach (45:56.109)
Someone in the comments, it starts with an H. I know it starts with an H, but just those types of things are really cool. I think you just need to give it time. Like you just need to give it time. Mills, you said it, man. Like day one, people are complaining about Dino. Where was that for Phoenix? Where was that for Emma?
Coach Mills (46:14.216)
Someone's coming home from their fucking, you know, their weekend job and they come on and they're like, ooh, I want to play some Dino and just everyone's pissed the fuck off and everyone, because pros are just spamming it, like everyone's banning Dino in their games and they're like, can I just play as the dinosaur man? Like what the fuck is happening? I mean like, that disconnect is just crazy to me. And I like, it almost made me change my mind. Cause like for a while I've been like.
ApexDabi (46:14.802)
that's a good point!
ApexDabi (46:21.348)
Yeah. Yeah.
Paz (46:34.412)
you
Coach Mills (46:41.98)
Yeah, I want more competitive balancing. And I still want characters that have deep skill expression. I think that that's just a very pleasant experience to be able to evolve as you play a character. I like that. But this whole idea that things need to be min-maxed around the pro scene is just like, it's making me lose my mind that pros feel like they get the final say. I don't understand why they think they get the final say. Absolutely not.
ApexDabi (47:02.808)
Yeah, I also think they need to stream more. think they need to create more content.
Paz (47:04.788)
I don't really know anything about the dinosaur either.
Coach Mills (47:07.572)
he's, he's ma- he's kind of like Mauga a little bit with no guns. So people are- people are my- yeah, people are pissed, yeah. People are pissed off. But-
Captain Coach (47:09.689)
He's an
Paz (47:12.364)
I understand why people are pissed. Yeah.
Captain Coach (47:13.219)
He's a... I could give you a little mini rundown from like higher rank, but maybe not like pro level. I mean, he's a triple support battery. can, team captain was actually wanting to point this out. You can actually snowflake a brawl tank and then just heel bop the dyno and the second tank will just never die. So it's...
ApexDabi (47:24.621)
Yeah.
Paz (47:34.528)
Yep, that was a season zero thing too with like Groot, Snowflake I think and like Hawks and stuff, it used to be good.
ApexDabi (47:34.862)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (47:38.797)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (47:39.177)
So, so like imagine they took Mal'Ga, this is how you understand it. They took Mal'Ga, no guns, he has a swing, okay? Like a right swing, similar. Okay, okay. But he also has a CC that can launch you like Wolverine into your team. And then he also has a beam that grounds people and slows people. And he also has a Winston bubble. His face. But, but, but, but, hear me out bro, but.
Paz (47:42.773)
Okay.
Paz (47:47.062)
See, no guns, okay.
Captain Coach (48:01.133)
Basically if you get close to him you lose.
ApexDabi (48:02.442)
And a lot of over health. You forget the best part. A lot of over health. But it's a dyna, yeah!
Paz (48:03.597)
Okay... Yeah, but it's a dinosaur! It's a dinosaur though, guys! Yeah...
Coach Mills (48:07.334)
But yeah, exactly! Let's fucking go with the fucking dinosaur! When you select him, Nickelback plays like you're fucking in there. That's it.
ApexDabi (48:13.388)
Yup, yup, you feel like you're in Jurassic, dude. And then you got a white fox that turns into nine tail fox form. So now you're just playing Jurassic World and you got two, like, you know, kaijus fighting it out. Like, it's fun.
Paz (48:14.762)
I can see why they're upset. Yeah.
Coach Mills (48:19.346)
Like, yeah, but, that, when there's, when there's six bans, like, like this is what I don't get is like when a new character comes out and they're like, this character's fucking broken. It's like banning. It's like, no, there's more things we need to ban. It's like then then bitch about those things too. Like you can't just bitch about the new thing. If you're unwilling to ban the new, like one of the six can be on the fucking dyno. Like, unless, unless you're pissed off at your teammates for locking the character, but it's like,
Paz (48:25.875)
Okay. Yeah.
ApexDabi (48:34.157)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (48:49.394)
Like, I don't know what to tell you, like, adapt to the meta, like.
Paz (48:51.114)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (48:52.449)
It's funny because the types of playstyle I feel that Dino counters the most is already like the most depressed group of players which is to me like Brawl is just like gets shit on by a lot of the most broken things and Dino is just like a better version of Brawl that also makes it very like Dino is good into other tanks. It's just why you just don't play tanks into him. Like he kind of destroys thing. People have been saying things good into Dino. don't think so. Hulk is actually pretty good by the way into Dino just so.
Coach Mills (49:14.839)
Yeah, yeah, unfortunately.
ApexDabi (49:20.354)
I think Hulk and Emma are phenomenal dude. Emma just like perma 100%. She's just laser beaming, yeah.
Coach Mills (49:22.002)
Tankpool, I'm telling you, Tankpool's actually really good into him too. Cause you can just level very easily cause you just can't miss his head. On Tankpool he just like, you just get max level very quickly. No, yeah. Like, and that's the thing, I'm not against like balancing the character. Like I get that. It's just about like this speed of like, bounce it, bounce it right now. Fix this shit. Like we're your pros, fix it for us.
Captain Coach (49:22.765)
Yeah. Emma.
ApexDabi (49:33.079)
Yeah.
Paz (49:35.006)
I can see why people don't like playing against that type of character, but it's like you can, man, and I can see where you're coming from too.
Captain Coach (49:49.295)
Yeah.
Paz (49:49.821)
Are you telling me like this was like insane levels of like crash out? Like I mean I wasn't on yeah, I I saw some things Really? Wow
Coach Mills (49:54.982)
Yeah, all over X, everybody, everybody like.
ApexDabi (49:55.714)
Yeah, yeah. It's literally everyone. They're just so loud and it's like, bro, you're the minority. It's just like, you are .1 % of everybody that plays this game. Not everybody is experiencing what you're experiencing.
Captain Coach (49:57.114)
It's...
Paz (50:12.161)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (50:13.428)
And to speak to your point, Dabi, about the innovations in comp, we saw that a lot in Overwatch. Goats was the triple-chain, triple-support comp that ran the game for a while. That was created by just a random team at the time. I think they were named, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paz (50:23.882)
Yep.
Paz (50:29.088)
Clockwork Vendetta then came out of that too.
ApexDabi (50:31.404)
It's why I even quit Overwatch. Brigitte came out and I quit. Like I didn't touch it for two years.
Coach Mills (50:36.044)
well people didn't figure out the well risk I mean, Briggs was always broken, but people didn't figure out the actual goats comp until someone just experimented and just like because like basically the pieces were there for so long. People were just like just stuck in the same things that were always good that they refused to innovate. And then there was like all kinds of cool innovations like the the Doomfist Zarya metaphor a little while with Sombra and the fucking Arisa Hogg meta like that. Like, I think that there's a lot of innovations that can happen to.
ApexDabi (50:43.713)
Yeah.
Paz (50:44.129)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (50:50.507)
Yeah, yeah.
ApexDabi (50:57.444)
Hmm.
Coach Mills (51:05.672)
And people would do time to kind of get stuck in the same I think that's actually happening right now where People just don't know how to play against bra like at all like like poke actually has a lot of natural advantages against bra But like you should not be fucking face-tanking if you're getting grabbed by as a magneto if you're grab by a magnet It's your fault. I'm sorry. It's your fucking fault. You do not have to play point-blank from him. Just back the fuck up He doesn't get any heel unless he's on top of
ApexDabi (51:14.081)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (51:23.96)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (51:31.939)
Well, I think that's the biggest complaint, and maybe I'm wrong, is that he enables brawl is really what it is. He makes characters like Hulk and Cap and stuff a lot better. And people view that as a more less skillful, more brainless play style, which I could see that argument.
Coach Mills (51:38.577)
Right, right.
ApexDabi (51:38.776)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (51:50.099)
Yeah, I mean we've been in poke slop for fucking ever like that's everyone bitches about if we're in dive It's like all this shit's uncounterable. It's just bullshit if we're in poke It's just poke slop if we're in brawl. It's brainless like are people ever happy for?
Captain Coach (51:52.569)
Right.
Paz (52:03.105)
Even if it's... Yeah.
ApexDabi (52:05.558)
I do it. think we've just become too competitive. I genuinely believe that in my heart of hearts. We have forgotten how to have fun in in Yeah in gaming in general like everyone just wants to be a streamer Everyone wants to be the best of the best Everyone wants to be at the top rank ladder so that they can show their buddies that they reach GM Which doesn't even equate to what they think it does right like everyone just wants to be the best of the best and I'm like I'm looking around I'm like
Paz (52:13.972)
in gaming in general.
ApexDabi (52:34.678)
Everyone's tough. We've seen the same strange play 24th like like how many I have agamotus Can you hit before I'm like I seen that and I'm gonna keep scrolling right like we've forgotten how to have fun and to make content not even like as a creator but to like Like what happened to the good old days of you know hopping on Xbox live and just like and just playing for the fun of it right even if it was competitive there was still that
That passion to like, you know, my god, we hit a clip, right? it's not, none of that just doesn't, it feels like it doesn't exist anymore. Everyone just wants to just min-max everything all of the time.
Coach Mills (53:14.856)
Yeah No, no fucking no, no You know what their best no, no, no, it's you know, why you know, you know why cap it's because of you, bro This is why this this is all happened and and you Dobby and you pass and probably me too Here's the thing. We all make fucking money. Just playing this stupid ass game like and and and so does Will you make money doing whatever anything? Yeah, but but
Captain Coach (53:15.599)
because the rank system is their best engagement tool. That's what it is. It's full circle, dude. That's what it is. That's what it is.
Paz (53:19.468)
I couldn't agree with the sentiment more though.
ApexDabi (53:22.69)
What, like I'm just, hey listen, I didn't, hey!
ApexDabi (53:31.428)
Yo.
ApexDabi (53:37.316)
True, true.
Paz (53:38.198)
Not me anymore.
ApexDabi (53:40.996)
See, I don't complain though. Listen, listen, here's the difference. I'm happy to do it. I think there's a spot for it.
Coach Mills (53:43.112)
But I'm not saying that it's you, it's not you complaining that's causing it, it's your existence that is causing it and the existence of so many others. That's why everyone wants to like hyper get better at games.
ApexDabi (53:51.684)
Mmm.
Captain Coach (53:56.921)
Are you saying we need to just Thanos snap the pros away?
ApexDabi (53:57.187)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (53:59.663)
No, it's not, it's creators, it's pros, it's like the whole idea that like your value is tied to like your rank and if your rank is high enough, you can make money doing it and like your whole life is worth something, like all these hours you spent matter because you're...
ApexDabi (54:00.138)
Hahaha!
Paz (54:07.469)
that's so real. Yeah.
ApexDabi (54:12.58)
That's why I want the pros to stream more. Play with us. Let go on being serious. Like connect with the community that you love so much, right? You're a pro player? I've never seen you stream. I've never seen a TikTok clip. I've never seen a YouTube. No, I like where y'all at though. Like y'all pros, y'all want to be part of the community. All right, queue up with me then.
Paz (54:25.91)
is so real. That is so real.
Coach Mills (54:27.208)
That's actually crazy real. That's so real. That's why we love our boy Light. That's why we love Light. That's why we love our fucking boy Light. Cause he's there.
Captain Coach (54:33.793)
light light i was gonna say that too he's the bridge bro he's the bridge
ApexDabi (54:38.735)
Like... Like, like they care about their ranks so much more than they care about growing in the community and really facilitating the tools to like be better than our competitors, right? That's the end goal, right? To just keep growing as a community and, and poach other, um, you know, whatever, Call of Duty community. I, I, you know, Genshin, I don't know. I don't, I don't care where we're pulling from, but like, it, it, yeah, you know what I mean? But like, they just have to...
Captain Coach (55:02.031)
Progencion.
ApexDabi (55:06.178)
You gotta, you gotta like be there and be present. You can't just collect a check for 60 bands a year, right? And you show up to a pro scene and all you do is just live on Twitter. Like, they post a Twitter clip and then that's it. You don't see them stream, you don't see them any- Like, and I mean this, like where y'all at? Where's- Remember, remember Moxie? Remember XQC? Remember Rascal? Y'all remember Rascal from- Like, that was some of the- Prime Overwatch was the- some of the-
Paz (55:22.614)
To be fair, a lot do, actually.
ApexDabi (55:34.66)
best esports I've ever seen right next to Apex Legends. genuinely legitimized gaming as a whole. think before Fortnite, think Overwatch really got people to sit down and be like, oh my God, we really can do this for real. and yeah, it was on the news, bro. Like my mom, I remember this clear as day, my mom was like, don't you play that game Overwatch? And I'm like, how do you, you barely know how to work your iPhone. Like, how do you know that? Like genuinely, how do you know that?
Paz (55:36.332)
True. True.
Paz (55:49.196)
It was on the news.
I remember being on ABC.
Coach Mills (55:56.072)
God old days, holy.
Hehehehehe
Paz (56:02.308)
I walked downstairs and my brother and my dad were watching the London Spitfire and I forget who they're playing, the Philly Fusion finals and I was like, what? And that was when it was Volskaya and I think it was proper or Birdring had that crazy like, dude.
ApexDabi (56:09.57)
Yeah, the fusion, yeah.
Coach Mills (56:12.808)
God, man.
Coach Mills (56:16.85)
Don't give me, I'm still, I...
ApexDabi (56:17.668)
It's back when streamers were pro players and pro players were streamers. now it's just pro players that aren't content creators. Yeah.
Paz (56:26.048)
mean, a lot of people do stream, like Energy Streams, Cooper Streams, a lot of them do, but it's different.
Coach Mills (56:26.056)
they don't.
It's pretty, it's rare, like, they might stream, but do they post anything?
Paz (56:34.4)
Hooper has posted a guide, but that was when I was working at FlyQuest and they made them. But the other thing too is when they did post, the community, because it's more of a casual game, they don't care. I'm gonna be honest. Most of the people that play Rivals, they could care less about pros. True.
Coach Mills (56:36.112)
Well... Right...
ApexDabi (56:39.352)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (56:46.418)
Well, I mean, it's... It still needs to be packaged well, but I guess that's the whole thing is like if they could do all that, then they wouldn't probably need to go pro.
Captain Coach (56:52.985)
So I might have misspoke earlier, Overwatch League not around, it's still like watched and played competitively, right? They revamped it, Right. Okay. Well, apologies to anyone watching if I did get that wrong. Cause I know the Overwatch League was like shut down, but yes.
ApexDabi (56:59.736)
They actually revamped it, bro. And I'm honestly good on them. Yeah.
Paz (57:01.62)
It's OWCS now. And it's actually pretty big now too. Like it's getting bigger.
Coach Mills (57:04.956)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (57:11.526)
Yeah, that was the one that was in person. wasn't the nail in the coffin was COVID, right? That COVID completely killed it. Yeah, it was already kind of dying because they wouldn't fucking get rid of goats, but yeah, COVID.
Paz (57:14.252)
Dude, it was so hype, by the way. my God. Yeah.
ApexDabi (57:14.552)
Yeah. Dude, bro.
Yeah... Yeah...
Paz (57:25.664)
Dude, but don't even get me started on that because they finally had triple DPS the ball meta with the What was their team name that it was the team the China? Chengdu hunters They finally had the ball triple DPS pharmacy to counter the the goats comp and then they said roll cue That's why Marvel rivals, please never add roll cue. Please keep it from the Jit
Captain Coach (57:46.447)
Yes.
ApexDabi (57:46.553)
I think Role Queue is the death of any hero shooter. It just doesn't belong.
Coach Mills (57:47.381)
This is the craziest shit. They did not put fucking bands in Overwatch ever. until so, so late. It took Rivals to put a minute.
ApexDabi (57:56.004)
Do you want to know what they said verbatim? They said verbatim, they said, we don't have enough heroes. I'm, hold on, and then Rivals comes out and Rivals has the same amount of heroes and they have bands. And all of a sudden Overwatch is like, we can do that too. And I'm like, yo, so you could have done this the whole time.
Coach Mills (58:11.592)
Isn't that crazy that We were in Ghostbender for a year and seven months and they could have just added bans at any time and fixed that shit in two seconds That's actually so funny in hindsight. I Mean, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah
Paz (58:13.056)
Boger actually talked about that too.
Yeah.
Paz (58:23.798)
Yep. There was a lot of different things they could have done. I mean...
ApexDabi (58:23.916)
Like that.
ApexDabi (58:28.962)
I mean, I think you guys, did you guys ever see the Jeff Kaplan interview, right? I know we're talking about Rivals, not to get on too much of a tangent, but that really like, genuinely tells you everything you need to know on why Overwatch failed. And honestly, like they put it all on him. Like TLDR, if you haven't seen it, please go watch it. It is super informative and it gives you an insight on how the devs operate from like, not only a business standpoint, but a developer standpoint, how much pressure that they've been.
Paz (58:33.546)
Yes.
Coach Mills (58:37.339)
no, please.
Paz (58:41.846)
Yep. Yep.
ApexDabi (58:57.508)
put on by Blizzard and by the higher up shareholders, et cetera. a lot of these frustrations that we see in rivals, it always comes down to a business decision at the end of the day. We want what we want, but the shareholders also want what they want. So it's a balance, right? Anyway, so I'm going on a tangent, but yeah, go check that out. It's a great insight.
Coach Mills (59:18.008)
I think what Nettys has, Nettys, you know, has, think there's a lot of advantages it has over Blizzard. Like Blizzard definitely had some advantages, but of course, like now knowing what we know, there was so many problems inside the company that just happened over, you know, the very long tenure inside Blizzard that like, seems now they cleaned house a lot and like the things are back on track, right? But like, this is basically like Nettys' first big thing. Like this is like,
Paz (59:35.851)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (59:46.482)
You know, they've done mobile games, not like big competitive games. Like this is it.
Captain Coach (59:53.167)
Yeah, Blizzard has historically been known for having very high quality product, but being slow to make changes. And I think NetEase is the total opposite, right? Quick changes, not afraid to make mistakes. then, you know, I'm still waiting on that season. Hey, Hotfix, see what they do for that.
Coach Mills (01:00:10.286)
well you want a Season 8 Hawfix? What do you want in it?
Captain Coach (01:00:14.263)
I mean, I think the game, as much as we're talking about play for fun, I do think it's the least balanced it's ever been. And like I said, I'm all for more bands at this point, because that's really the only way us as players can really fight back against that.
ApexDabi (01:00:22.21)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:00:28.68)
mean, we have a lot of bands. Like, what exactly is the unbalanced thing you're talking about? Are you just talking about Dino in particular or?
Captain Coach (01:00:34.677)
yeah, like, I think Dino could potentially use a nerf, but, I, yeah, like the, like Phoenix is obnoxious. Star Lord? Like what, like, what was the Star Lord change? Like he didn't need that.
ApexDabi (01:00:47.788)
Yeah, adding 10 bullets was kind of... That was just like... I felt like they spun the wheel and they were like, my god, 10 bullets to a random... Yeah.
Paz (01:00:50.367)
Do it for fun.
Captain Coach (01:00:53.487)
Right. Fantastic is bugged. Like his, he only got the buff on one of his arms. So his strong arm.
Coach Mills (01:01:00.488)
Doesn't he doesn't he like double hit dino too is what I've heard that he double hit
ApexDabi (01:01:03.672)
Yeah, he double hits,
Captain Coach (01:01:04.109)
Yeah, there's so, yeah, and that's just off the top of my head. mean, Blade is still kind of struggling. We're seeing that a lot of these characters that fulfill a certain archetype, I've used Fantastic as an example, like that mid-range type of brawly, like DPS type, just doesn't really work in the game because certain characters gatekeep them is really the problem. So I would like to see those characters turn.
Paz (01:01:04.426)
you
ApexDabi (01:01:28.099)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:01:28.744)
That my-
Captain Coach (01:01:30.383)
tuned down a little bit so people can have fun and actually push rank on things that...
Coach Mills (01:01:34.385)
My question is like won't the next most busted thing like just become there like like I know that we want everything to be viable but like is that even really possible that everything is viable it feels like something always gets pushed down like even if they like if they if they Like what so what are we specifically talking about? Like I'm not I do agree with like Jean Grey nerfs and like let's just say they nerfed all the top A and S tier characters Which is like may more hella Jean Grey fucking daredevil black cat
ApexDabi (01:01:45.573)
No.
Coach Mills (01:02:02.918)
Like what actually is left? Are we gonna be sitting in like a Magic Iron Fist meta? Like crashing the fuck out?
Paz (01:02:07.271)
But I want to see it. I want to see it because I've been playing the same game for the past year I'll be honest
ApexDabi (01:02:10.403)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:02:10.946)
yeah, I guess that is true. It's it's different. That is cool. It's different But but but like won't people be crashing? fuck it is like low scale like the same shit that all these pros are talking about right now I don't know
Captain Coach (01:02:11.641)
Yeah, I mean, and don't, you know, it's been.
ApexDabi (01:02:12.855)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:02:17.977)
Don't even
Captain Coach (01:02:21.963)
and those those in his nerves. I don't think slap on the wrist, maybe like a light touch on the like a pet on the wrist. It's okay, you'll be all right. Like what was that? Like, so I mean, white fox got buffed? Like what?
ApexDabi (01:02:28.942)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:02:31.036)
That is actually true. That's actually true, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:02:34.732)
I don't know why they did that. That was just, I I know why, yeah, I know why. Also, yeah, like, okay, so they, yeah, a lot of people complained. They just didn't know how to use the hero, and I'm like, just learn another play style. we're just so, I think we, I think genuinely as content creators, we have an obligation to teach our viewers that
Captain Coach (01:02:37.953)
You know why. You know why, Deep Dad. You know why.
Coach Mills (01:02:41.233)
They did it for you, Dobby!
ApexDabi (01:03:03.074)
just because a character feels, you know, they're just designed as a, you know, they're designated as a DPS doesn't mean you can't flank, right? Just cause you're Hella doesn't like, Hella isn't just to sit behind shield and just farm heads, right? You see those, those Hella mains that just flank and you're like, my God, where did she come from? And then she's gone, right? She gets a quick pick and then she's gone. Same, same with supports, like supports need to be taught that staying behind your tank, may not be the play all the time.
Maybe it's the flank, you have the ability to make a play because you are a support, not a healer. If I was a healer...
Coach Mills (01:03:38.824)
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be the the the the counter voice that people always say um You just want us to play DPS. We're not DPS with supports. That's what I hear that a lot. No, but I'm just But you know what I'm talking about right people say that shit
Paz (01:03:39.467)
God forbid if support players got to play and dive. You know? Let's try it.
ApexDabi (01:03:42.66)
I'm just saying.
ApexDabi (01:03:50.412)
No, because then that would mean like Luna is a DPS which Luna, you know like DPS Luna like that that's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Captain Coach (01:03:54.18)
Bells.
Paz (01:03:57.734)
damage trust me I get it all the time
Captain Coach (01:04:00.931)
The
Coach Mills (01:04:01.447)
No, because that's all Paz and I do is we just make guys to try to help people. we've been teaching these same things since season zero. Yeah, mean, since Overwatch back, I mean, I've been coaching hero shooters for seven years. And no matter what I say, there's still people that just won't embrace proactivity, they won't embrace playmaking.
ApexDabi (01:04:05.603)
Yeah.
Paz (01:04:09.429)
at least six years.
same shit yeah
ApexDabi (01:04:16.313)
Yeah.
Paz (01:04:19.381)
They're gonna do what they wanna do. Yep.
Captain Coach (01:04:27.271)
There is a line to be drawn though, going too far. I mean, the first game we ever played together, Dobby. I mean, you want to talk about that at all? just...
Paz (01:04:30.197)
True.
ApexDabi (01:04:34.646)
I mean, okay, listen. Listen, I was right, you were right, the Nviz wasn't the best. But my point stands though. No, okay, listen.
Paz (01:04:36.457)
Hahaha
Captain Coach (01:04:38.319)
We don't need to bring her into this My man was running duo heal Adam. I was like asking for more heals
Coach Mills (01:04:41.298)
no.
ApexDabi (01:04:47.766)
Okay, no, I was saying we match their triple support because they came out with triple support out the gate It wasn't like they swapped to it. I was like, We should just run triple support like I because I've played with the invas before I'm like bro She it doesn't matter if I go main heels or not She's going to die like they're going to focus her and she's gonna die. We have to match but At the end of the day when when I meet players like that in this again, if you see this, I apologize it went
Coach Mills (01:04:48.346)
Hahaha!
Captain Coach (01:04:53.197)
Yeah. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:05:16.996)
She is bit of like, she's scared to play invis the way she was designed, right? Like she's not fully utilizing the grab or the push or the vortex or right? So like these kind of comps, when they come out out the gate, people just want to play it in their comp, however they feel most comfortable. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I was like, I'm not helping a raid boss.
Captain Coach (01:05:34.095)
She was asking for help and we were not helping her at all. I felt so bad. She's like, I need help, Like that was literally what she said. So I think there is the point I'm trying to make though is like, you can go too far with that. And it's like, okay, well, yeah, maybe you're getting value doing something, but the most value could be ultimately what's best for your team in that moment, right? So, cause I've seen duo heal Adam, I've seen it work, you know.
Coach Mills (01:05:36.664)
Paz (01:05:37.351)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:05:41.97)
ApexDabi (01:05:42.244)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:05:48.387)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:06:01.7)
I mean, Quad is like, he makes it work. And he just, he does what I do on White Fox, but on Adam. Like he'll just flank, take two, and then go back to his team. And his team is like, held it enough together. Maybe they lost one, but they're up one, right? So it's like, it's a good trade, right? It's a good trade value.
Coach Mills (01:06:23.32)
so I had a big debate in my discord and we kind of went back and forth and I settled on this core point. I want to read it. really quick. And I want to hear your thoughts on it. Dabby, Paz and Captain Coach. So this is just about healing and specifically healing and rivals. So healing as a utility versus healing as a necessity in rivals, we are in situations where the optimal play is often to just face tank damage plus be pocketed by supports, not fun for the supports, no agency from the people being pocketed.
Really, it could be so much better. Do y'all agree or generally disagree with that statement? What do you think about the idea that, you know, because of the powerful sustain in this game and the support kits being balanced mostly around sustain and less blaming, there are exceptions like White Fox. That's the reason why there's a lot of frustration. You're like, tanks sometimes feel like a puppet on a string. Supports feel like they have to pocket or their tank just falls over. What do you think?
Captain Coach (01:07:20.653)
I can start if you guys want to think about it.
ApexDabi (01:07:22.456)
Yeah, you got it. Yeah, go ahead.
Paz (01:07:23.527)
I'm good with whatever.
Captain Coach (01:07:25.135)
So I do think that that is a bit of Rival's identity. I'm gonna start with that. It's almost like Whack-a-mole with health bars. After all, it is a game that uses the Holy Trinity Tank DPS healer. So that's something that is not uncommon. Dabi, mean, you played Guild Wars 2. I'm sure you're familiar with that. I think that game's, I haven't played it, but I assume it's probably similar to WoW Healing.
ApexDabi (01:07:46.51)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:07:50.436)
Yeah, relatively, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:07:52.493)
Yeah, so I think that is a bit of the game's identity. Someone drops low on health. In a lot of games, you have to cast a spell, and you only have instant spells, which everything in Rivals is instant. You could only have that once every 10, 15 seconds. what I'm getting at is the sustain in Rivals is too frequent and too high. So I would just like to see it toned down to the point where if I outplay a DPS for four or five seconds and get him one hit away from a kill,
Five seconds of work, let's say I stun a Psylocke, clap jumper, she's stealth, I clap her out of stealth, like, I actually have a chance to kill her for once. I do some crazy Bhop wall cancer, I'm about to punch her, and then Invis looks over, she's full health. That's one second of work for five seconds of like hard effort. I wanna see that toned down just a little bit. So maybe have a ramp up with the heals or just lower them overall and we're good. I think the game's not.
ApexDabi (01:08:31.64)
Yeah.
Paz (01:08:42.955)
Yup.
Captain Coach (01:08:50.243)
Like I don't need these big nerfs for healers. I'm just talking like 10 % maybe or just something to make it just that the permassustane slowed down a little bit. That's kind of where I'm at. I think that's the game's identity though is like the heal body. I'm okay with that to an extent. Then maybe, right, the value of that's low enough to where we bring it back to like the Adam flanking with Dabi is like now you're not always encouraged to just sit back and heal. Now there's more of a choice and that's what I'm looking for.
ApexDabi (01:09:20.836)
Yeah, I think when they incorporated that 20 % ult reduction, that was one of the best decisions they have ever done in this game. Like the frequency of ults that I see in this game compared to Season 0, oh my goodness. I mean, Season 0, 30 seconds into the fight, everyone's popping Q, right? And over time they've been, you know, like...
slowly nerfing certain ult charges and buffing certain ult charges. I think I agree. It is a bit heal body. But I also agree with Captain Kelly. It's like tone it down a little bit. Like you see the, you know, what Spider-Man has to do. Bro's got to hit so many techs just to get like one pick. And you have to be like at the top because if they go into more, like the amount of spider tech that you have to hit against good players, just to get a little bit of value, like you're burning.
Like BP, you're burning your whole kit to get one pick just for somebody to look for one second, 100 % HP. Like, it sucks, as a BP, like dude that sucks man. Like it's your whole kit and you can't get out.
Coach Mills (01:10:26.866)
Yeah, that's actually, yeah. Yeah, it's actually kind of crazy that, like, as Spider-Man, you have to kill them before they get looked at. Like, you have to kill them before they get, or it's just over.
Captain Coach (01:10:31.247)
You gotta be better at the game.
ApexDabi (01:10:36.717)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:10:40.206)
So I agree with coach. think they just need to tone it down just a little bit. And it's coming from support main here. Like it's a lot.
Coach Mills (01:10:45.712)
a little
Captain Coach (01:10:48.207)
I'm sorry.
Paz (01:10:48.84)
yeah, I mean 100%. They do. They do.
Coach Mills (01:10:51.064)
so Paz, you're, you're officially leaving, you know, for now. Let, let's say, well, okay. Let me hear your, what you have to say here first before, cause I want to ask you a question, but.
Paz (01:10:55.515)
Mm-hmm. I have a lot to say on this concept. Yeah
Paz (01:11:02.825)
Yeah, okay, I'll try to make it quick for you. The big thing is it's a very slippery slope in my opinion with Rivals if you nerf support because the game is about ultimates and like I said earlier, if you nerf the supports too much and there is no sustain,
Why would I not just go like Spider-Man, BP, Black Cat and just kill everyone in one second? Like why wouldn't I just do that? Like I have to have somewhat of a reason to play support and if I can't heal fast enough anymore, then I never get my ult and I could just get two Starlord ults before someone even gets a support ult. I would just go like White Fox, Adam, which I would love that by the way, but I know a lot of people wouldn't. The thing is, like so much is based on everything having all this output.
And that's just kind of the hole they've dug themselves into that like, we're just in this weird spot where like supports have to heal so much because Jean can three tap you because that makes sense and Hella can still like do all this damage too, but that's also because Luna can just like heal you with two claps. And it's like, they're all like together in this weird sort of way. And like the whole thing with alt charge changes too, I honestly think the only reason that feels like it's actually changed at all is because immediately after those alt charge nerfs,
We went into a dive meta where neutral was actually important because DPS would just nuke you. We have daredevil. had, mean, I only remember it was like daredevil with some other like black cat or I don't even remember what DPS or Psylocke and Gambit and all this stuff. It was like you would just get nuked. But now that Dino's in the game, like sure you don't get your ult in 30 seconds. Now you just get it in a minute and then it's just the ult slop again. I do agree with what you guys are saying though. I think supports need to get nerfed somehow, but it's like, I'm thinking like would it?
Coach Mills (01:12:27.036)
Yeah. Yeah. And Venom was really good. Yeah.
Paz (01:12:43.925)
really like I don't play the game as much as you guys do like how much would it really change the game because like if things just get nuked why not just run more DPS that's what that was an overwatch one thing too like it was four or it's like five DPS and mercy at one point was the meta because supports were so bad and tanks wouldn't be able to live and then people would just be in top 50 that's when I hit the highest rank I ever hit I was just playing mercy pocketing like Hanzo Widow players and for three other DPS and that was like the weirdest matter of all time but it can happen
Coach Mills (01:12:48.508)
I see what you're saying. Like, I mean, you would need like a, yeah. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:13:06.457)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:13:10.162)
Right.
Paz (01:13:11.583)
And it's like you have that trade off where it's like, when is it like support just so weak to the point where like, whatever, I'm just going DPS and we're playing Cod.
Coach Mills (01:13:19.164)
I think mostly, because when I talk about healing as a utility versus healing as a necessity, right? Like if we think of like the evolution of a healer, like back in WoW or even before that, like using a healing spell or like a healing thing in the middle of combat or like in a key moment mattered, there is no, this is a heal that happens in a key moment. this is, well.
Paz (01:13:26.283)
Yeah.
huh.
ApexDabi (01:13:36.708)
Hmm.
Paz (01:13:41.74)
you're saying like suzu and stuff like that, kind of?
ApexDabi (01:13:44.644)
Mmm.
Coach Mills (01:13:45.691)
Well, not even that because that comes up even faster like maybe but like it's just like it's like it's not just healing is just being peddled and peddled and peddled and peddled and because because I it teaches tanks and in dps bad Well, yeah, I mean it teaches everyone bad habits when a dps is appropriate play is just to stand there like
Paz (01:13:47.568)
weaker version of that. Okay.
Paz (01:13:55.538)
Okay.
Paz (01:13:59.016)
Resource management. Exactly. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:14:06.364)
Like when the right play for Jean Grey is to stand there and get pocketed by Invis so that she gets the highest amount of uptime. Like that's the actual correct play. That's just completely brain dead on the part of the support and the DPS. The DPS is not positioned. And then like the DPS, like a really high ranked DPS will be standing out of position and then they'll die because they're not getting pocketed. And they're like, they're yelling at their Invis because like really the right play is for the Invis to just pocket them. But yes, they're out of position. Like it just causes like brain rot in my opinion, like nonstop.
ApexDabi (01:14:12.504)
Yeah.
Paz (01:14:14.411)
Uhhh... Yeah...
Captain Coach (01:14:27.118)
Yeah.
Paz (01:14:35.487)
You're not wrong. Yeah. No, I see it.
Coach Mills (01:14:37.593)
And I'm not blaming supports for this. It's the game's fault. It's creating this.
ApexDabi (01:14:42.904)
I mean, they play what they're comfortable in, right? Cause they've experienced the most success in that play style, right? They're just gonna sit back, relax and let the, you know, let the punisher who's sitting in turret just, you know, shoot the ground. Like, yeah.
Paz (01:14:42.986)
Yeah.
Paz (01:14:49.983)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:14:57.288)
Just like that, the Punisher should fucking die for being out in the open and the Invis should not be able to carry the fight by just pocketing the fucking dumb ass Punisher, but she can. And then she's incentivized from just AFKing and never making a proactive play because she's trying to enable these people that are out of position. It's just like the cycle that I like.
Captain Coach (01:14:58.273)
It's just.
ApexDabi (01:15:03.745)
Exactly.
Paz (01:15:08.543)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:15:08.886)
Yeah. Yeah.
Paz (01:15:12.433)
I agree. Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:15:21.603)
This might not be the best example, but I mean, it's funny to look at comparisons of other games to the healing in this, just to put it in perspective for people. I mean, support alts, obviously, that's like pretty much an AOE, just heal everybody to full right away type ability. There's a spell like that in World of Warcraft that paladins have called lay on hands and wow, there's mana, which is like, once you heal too much, you just can't do it anymore. You run out of mana, but it's an instant.
ApexDabi (01:15:37.369)
Yeah.
Paz (01:15:37.961)
Yeah.
Paz (01:15:43.072)
Yep.
Paz (01:15:47.743)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:15:51.289)
full health heal on one person. Can you guess how frequently you can use that ability? Once an hour. Once an hour. And that just goes to show you. Yeah. Well, you can spec into it and make it 40 minutes, but you gotta, you gotta waste. You gotta give up something. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:15:59.524)
Damn. my god, rationing. War rations, Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:16:09.81)
That would be, like a man, bar would be really interesting. I'm not saying we implement this, but it would be very interesting to have a resource.
Paz (01:16:09.948)
A whole 20 minutes! That's actually kind of insane.
Dude that, okay, if support players had to resource manage though in this game, they would like man.
ApexDabi (01:16:17.358)
That's why, okay, yes. Yes, like White Fox. You have to manage your tails in order to like make a play, right?
Captain Coach (01:16:24.207)
Mmm.
Paz (01:16:27.828)
But even then, she doesn't really have to do like, like you can.
ApexDabi (01:16:31.372)
No, like I can't survive off one tail. I'm being, like yeah, like and same with like Gambit. Gambit, have to manage your cards, right? Like.
Coach Mills (01:16:31.374)
She has a lot of uptime, but yeah.
Paz (01:16:34.548)
Fair enough. I mean, when I was playing, I don't know, yeah, that's true.
Coach Mills (01:16:39.464)
Gambit is a research management. It's really fast. It's really, really fast, but yeah. It's really small.
Paz (01:16:39.612)
Yeah, there's a little bit of resource management. But it's not like other hero shooters, though.
Like in Overwatch, if I was playing and I wasted like two Baptiste healing grenades, I would lose fights. And that that was fun support for me. But when I'm playing Mantis and I just go damage, damage, damage, damage, moves, I ran out. hey, there's a T-Rex across the map. Ping, damage, damage. I'm not even thinking. I'm just pressing buttons, which is fun. But it's like I resource management. It definitely is an issue. And I see where you guys are coming from now. And I do agree with your points.
ApexDabi (01:16:47.086)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:16:53.932)
Yeah, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:17:07.416)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:17:13.416)
And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be like nerves or compensations to DPS abilities and all that stuff. All I'm saying is that just like the D, it's more about just like the pure neutral is like just way too... Cause I know when I actually do enjoy playing support, but I never enjoy playing the support that has to just sit there and just heal bot my tank from dying. Maybe that's why a lot of support players are hating Dino. Cause like that's the play style you get forced into is like that pure bot, like that's the play style that...
Paz (01:17:20.787)
Yeah, no.
Paz (01:17:25.524)
There are ways, yeah, there are ways it needs to get better.
Paz (01:17:42.056)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:17:43.642)
A lot of healers play like underneath grand master or even in grand master like that. They just play the heal bot style 24 seven. They don't really take angles. They're not proactive.
ApexDabi (01:17:52.416)
I would go as far as like even Celestial dude. yeah, I mean, I would say dude, my entire experience playing support in season seven has been genuinely like, like I don't think I'm gonna do it again. And I think it's, I think dude, it feels as though that I'm fighting the enemy, but I'm also fighting my own team. I have to convince them why something like White Fox is viable. Like, and it-
Paz (01:17:55.498)
99 % of Yep.
Captain Coach (01:17:58.514)
yeah.
Paz (01:18:20.212)
Dude, nail in the head on why I hate that shit sometimes. Yeah!
ApexDabi (01:18:21.196)
And I'm fighting two battles.
Coach Mills (01:18:22.8)
Hehehehehe
Captain Coach (01:18:23.631)
He yells at supports as a support more than the tanks do. It's fucking great.
ApexDabi (01:18:27.616)
Yeah. Cause I see it and I'm like, what are we doing?
Paz (01:18:27.678)
Dude, I do too though, like that's based.
Coach Mills (01:18:29.756)
No, no, I remember Pazzle and fucking hate it Like hey, hey, hey, here's the thing good supports hold other supports accountable good tanks hold other things accountable good DPS like you like don't know no Yeah, he cap doesn't the cap doesn't but I'll tell you what like when I have a nor like a non captain coach tank partner because you can you never flame your duo but like when I have a random other tank I'm the I'm on it. I he's the first guy I'm on his ass when he's doing something wrong
Paz (01:18:32.39)
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Captain Coach (01:18:33.674)
And you hit-
ApexDabi (01:18:39.447)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Captain Coach (01:18:42.349)
I protect my own mills. You're on my team.
ApexDabi (01:18:44.71)
Ha
Coach Mills (01:18:58.748)
I'm like, motherfucker, I'm taking this space. Where are you? Like, I know where we can be and you're not here. Like, like, you know, and it's kind of the same with Paz. He's like, I know what I'm doing. What the fuck are you doing? Other support like, yeah. But I wanted to ask you, Paz, because I know you're know you're about to leave like like rivals for at least a while. Let's say you were in charge of everything tomorrow and you could do three changes to the game. Any fucking thing you wanted.
ApexDabi (01:19:01.922)
Yeah.
Paz (01:19:08.403)
Yeah.
Paz (01:19:18.932)
Yeah
Coach Mills (01:19:27.272)
Anything you wanted and these these had to be impactful enough that would keep you in the game that would prevent you from leaving Yes, yes prevent you from leaving but you're the CEO right now So you could be three changes and it could be like it could be like a core change that has like multi steps to it so like three fundamental changes to rivals that would Basically fix the game in your mind to the point where you're like, I'm hyped to play I know that those you can you could think about that for a while. I also Yeah, yeah, just just well any anything it could be anything
Paz (01:19:31.572)
Keep me in the game.
Captain Coach (01:19:50.265)
Is this gameplay? Or...
Paz (01:19:52.169)
Like, if- and this is like, it would be successful monetarily. Like, I could make... anything. Cause what I want, not successful. I'ma be honest. my.
Coach Mills (01:19:56.923)
No, no, any fucking thing you want. Doesn't matter. Anything you want. And I wanna hear y'alls too. So y'all think about y'alls as well. Three that would just, I mean y'all aren't leaving the game, but like three that would just like, if you had the power to do three things. Think big, really big.
ApexDabi (01:20:01.742)
Doesn't matter, list them. I wanna hear these.
Paz (01:20:08.266)
Alright. Yeah.
Paz (01:20:13.002)
All right, well, oh man, mean, here's the thing. I still would wanna keep it at its core, it's Marvel Rivals. So all of the changes, while you say anything, dude, I would just, all right, make Marvel Rivals deadlock. Like, no, I'm not gonna do that, right? But like, okay, the first thing I would 100 % start with, I mean, I kind of been thinking about this too. It's like the neutral in this game, and we just hit on it, the neutral in this game.
Coach Mills (01:20:29.16)
Yeah, that's okay.
Paz (01:20:42.334)
does not exist. You've talked about it on the podcast before with Sumito. I disagree. If you take the Ultimates away, what is this game? I'ma be honest.
Coach Mills (01:20:51.4)
Oh yeah, he wanted to get rid of that.
ApexDabi (01:20:52.608)
Hahaha
Paz (01:20:53.77)
It is hella behind an invis shield going like this. That is the game right now. Like that is the game. first off, what we just were talking about with supports, resource management needs to be a thing in this game. Whenever I played support and I was actually playing the game, legit all I needed to do, I didn't even have to worry about, I used my ability here and it didn't get the maximum.
ApexDabi (01:20:57.538)
Yep.
Paz (01:21:19.69)
Possible heal I could have gotten out of it So I'm technically being less efficient than the other support on the other team So they're gonna get it X percent faster. I never had to think about that I had to think about that on bat and that might sound crazy that oh, that's a thing You have to think about brother when I'm in the top 500 and I am playing against the shroud X team This is true. This is how I got one above all I'm playing it's a shroud X team I need to be thinking like okay. I just optimized a hunch more healing than that guy I have my Luna all faster than him, but that's not the case because there's so much damage
that if you ever stop pressing left click, that guy's dead. I'm gonna be honest. There needs to be more situations that it's like, I have to make that split the second decision of am I being the most efficient possible with my healing, with my snowflake on this person. It's not just like, all right, I do this, I do that. So the first thing I would do is like resource management needs to be a thing. needs to be just numbers in general needs to make more sense across damage.
and support. don't know how you would do that. It's a really hard question to ask of me on the spot to be fair. That'd be the first thing. Yeah, I mean, I don't envy their spot at all. That's why I try not to complain a lot because it's really hard to make a game like that. The second thing.
ApexDabi (01:22:19.844)
That's why we're not devs. That's why we just get to complain. And they figure it out. Yeah, yeah.
Paz (01:22:30.762)
who step one for just ranked number two is how to fix ranked. Do not send me back seven ranks every month. I don't like it as a streamer. I don't think any of the nine to five guys would like that either. I think it's stupid. Personally, why can I climb with a 43 % win rate to the top 1 % of this godforsaken game? It is burger. I don't care what people say is
ApexDabi (01:22:44.74)
That's a hot take.
Paz (01:22:59.914)
burger I should win more than I lose so I can see funny number go up and I can see PNG. I don't know how it stayed in the game this much. The placements could have been really good because it could have like fix a lot of these problems. But I still see people with 3000 games a damn season. How do you have that much time to play rivals? Be real with me for a second. And they climbed a celestial with like a 30 something percent win rate that like that fundamentally does not make sense. You should never be able to climb like that.
Coach Mills (01:23:17.8)
Hey.
Paz (01:23:29.48)
and I would have ranks actually stick so that it feels like I'm making it somewhere. Now you just think that's what I would like. Apex Dobby, what you said about having people feel something, they get the funny badge, they pay more for skins. You're 100 % right. I was a marketing major. I'd do the same thing if I was trying to make money. But this is not about money. This is about, have a community that would like this. So fair enough. That's what I would make to make it more fulfilling for me. Last thing I would say is,
Can I say that I don't want to say the community, like some people do low key like the toxicity in this community is so insufferable. Like imagine if we actually had the changes I made and you had to have good neutral. I got some I'm going to have people bitching at me for trying to like be more efficient in min max. I had that even right now. Like people don't want to give you the space to actually have fun and improve. It's like now, bro, I got to be the we got to win this game. I got to show this dude that he sucks. It's like, dude, can we like
I feel like if there was a more competitive like vision to the game and everyone was really trying to improve the toxicity like wouldn't be as bad maybe but that's not the case. I just wish people weren't so goddamn annoying in this game like respectfully there are so many people even when I would do it with you coach Mills like way back in the day dude it was like at least half of our games was just some dude that just got out of high school and some like 23 year old man just slinging slurs back and forth in all chat.
Captain Coach (01:24:53.699)
Did they play Spider-Man?
Paz (01:24:54.92)
It was like a torch and a punisher. I think it was a torch and a punisher. Or maybe a Jeff the shark. Like... It's... yeah. Yeah. It's like... It's so bad. Yes.
ApexDabi (01:24:55.364)
Did they play psychic? I think Punisher mains that own like Jeeps with like the Punisher sticker They are like notorious. Those are the guys that you want to avoid and block It's the Jeep 1994 Wranglers with the Punisher on the hood and like a don't tread on me sticker like those are the guys just 10-foot pole avoid them
Coach Mills (01:24:57.208)
Yeah, it's always the footage bro.
Captain Coach (01:24:58.332)
Punisher yeah, Punisher. sense. Yeah, yeah
Coach Mills (01:25:04.058)
Ha ha.
Captain Coach (01:25:04.905)
Hahaha
Coach Mills (01:25:08.613)
Hahahaha
Coach Mills (01:25:16.988)
Wait, how do you know what I drive? No, I'm gonna forget the other side.
Paz (01:25:19.434)
But here's the thing, here's the thing, it's like, it's like I know like what you'd be like, well you're playing competitive game paths, don't be soft if someone flames you about your gameplay. But it's like, the thing is is these players aren't even right about the flame, they just bitch. It's like, it's like, yo, why didn't you heal me on when I dove in? It's like, bro, we didn't stage, you jumped in alone, we're not taking two different lanes, we all went down one fucking straight away, you didn't try to take less poke when we're on a dive comp, do you know how to play tank? No, but you still bitch and you can't.
Captain Coach (01:25:20.227)
Ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:25:30.552)
He did it, that's it too.
Captain Coach (01:25:31.575)
I would you say.
ApexDabi (01:25:31.65)
Yeah, yeah.
Paz (01:25:49.139)
introspectively look inward now the systemic changes of you know having a 51 % win rate to climb and having more like neutral and you have to be resource managed like that would probably help the game a lot but that's not Marvel rivals I understand that's not Marvel rivals so instead of trying to complain and be like this is what Marvel rivals should do I'm just gonna be like yo guys I'm gonna take a six-month break and play a game that's meant to be that and that and that's honestly what it is like at the end of the day
I think those changes would make the game feel better at the top of play, but would like, would my brother that gets to play maybe two hours of games a week who wants to play rivals, would he enjoy that? Probably not. And I don't know. But that's what I would do. It sounds an awful lot like Overwatch one before the Overwatch two change.
Coach Mills (01:26:15.24)
Fair enough.
Captain Coach (01:26:26.967)
which is
ApexDabi (01:26:30.688)
I mean yeah, you might as well just play Overwatch 1 at that point. You can do that!
Coach Mills (01:26:31.048)
My bad is this you can't you can't you can't
Captain Coach (01:26:32.008)
Hahaha. Yeah.
Paz (01:26:33.886)
But I can't do that anymore. No, I played it. I played it again. It is not the same, man. The magic has taken away. I don't know what it is.
Coach Mills (01:26:41.364)
They took out the fucking magic. Alright, Apex. Three. Three changes. Anything you want. You're the boss. You're the fucking boss. They can be even non-game related, but like, you know, you're just the boss. You just get to do whatever you
ApexDabi (01:26:47.3)
Okay, have one... one... off rip.
ApexDabi (01:26:54.788)
I say one off rip, think we need a more punishing system for griefers, throwers, and we also need to educate people on not one tricking because it is a team based game and if your one trick gets banned it is a free game for the enemy team. So I think there needs to be some kind of punishment system that is more than just a 15 minute ban.
so that they could log on and then do it again in 15 minutes. Like, it's, it's, that is like, think, that is, I think the level of alt accounts that are made because people don't get punished and they just feel like they can just make five alt accounts and then do the same thing on all five. Like that perpetually feeds the toxicity, right? Then you have the guy that's, you know, like yelling at you because you're running it down on Widow, right?
Paz (01:27:21.224)
Is that what it is, dude? No wonder why. Damn.
ApexDabi (01:27:50.37)
And then he's gonna do it to the next team because he's already tilted and pissed off and he sees somebody who actually knows how to play widow and that he's gonna yell at that guy he's like the widow mains just like you know to me it's it's it's a it's a community thing right so when we don't punish these people they're just gonna keep doing it right me included okay I have my fair rate fair fair fair you know you know my fair what's the word how do I say this yes yes it's like
Paz (01:28:15.838)
our share of
Captain Coach (01:28:16.384)
Aggressive education!
ApexDabi (01:28:19.716)
I've had my fair share of aggressive education where I have, you know, rage baited, I've been in the wrong plenty of times. I understand that I've been slapped with that one month's suspen- and I owned it, I was like, you know what, you know, fair enough, right? But then I see these people and I'm like, they're doing some of the most vile things and they just get to queue again! It's like, yo, like, rivals, please. So that's the first thing, I'd just be aggressive. Six months, learn your lesson. Like, don't do that again, right?
Second implementation, I want map buffs and map nerfs. And what I mean by a map buff and a map nerf is if I'm playing in New York, Spider-Man gets a buff. Like, he gets a new team up, right? Home court advantage. If I'm playing on Clintar, Venom gets a home court advantage, right? If I'm playing in, you know, in Asgard,
Paz (01:28:56.266)
What do you mean by that?
Coach Mills (01:29:03.029)
shit! Home court advantage, holy!
Captain Coach (01:29:03.318)
Aha!
Captain Coach (01:29:08.281)
That's cool.
ApexDabi (01:29:15.832)
The gods, know, Loki, Thor, they get a home court advantage. They get maybe another ability or they get... Cause that keeps the game alive, right? That goes, that even transcends into the pro scene where now they gotta think about the map pool pick. Which map are they gonna pick depending on who they're facing, right? Like it, like it really like keeps it from being like stale and just running the same poke comp. Cause now they gotta think,
Paz (01:29:36.65)
That's actually really cool. I like that.
Coach Mills (01:29:40.008)
That's actually interesting,
ApexDabi (01:29:45.26)
we can't pick Clintar because that guy's a really good venom player and he's gonna get this ability and even then now like all the symbiotes like let's say the what's the red guy the the red Not part of the no part of the symbiotes. What's his name the red version? Carnage like carnage gets a team up on like Clintar like you know what I mean so stuff like that I'd implement because I think map buffs and map nerfs are
Captain Coach (01:29:56.419)
Red skull.
Captain Coach (01:30:00.194)
Mmm... Carnage.
ApexDabi (01:30:12.088)
really cool and it's a great way to expand outside of team ups, right? Because I think team ups, think we all can agree team ups is a very cool addition to hero shooters. Like being able to like dab up Bucky and Captain America, you don't see that in any other game. Like that just doesn't happen. I think my third thing though, third thing would be, notice how none of these are like really like competitive-esque because I really just wanna, I wanna maximize
Coach Mills (01:30:40.21)
have some fun fun maxing yep
ApexDabi (01:30:41.422)
how much fun hero shooters can really be and bring back the magic that we lost in Overwatch I want to bring that back like that I know I'm just like you know I'm feeling nostalgic but I really want that back like I miss watching Overwatch League I miss watching Apex Legends like the ALGS I miss watching that and I think Marvel Rivals lacks that a lot and like we need to bring that magic back but third thing
Paz (01:30:44.06)
I respect it. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:31:11.916)
I think would be more divisions in the ranks.
Coach Mills (01:31:18.15)
Okay, I've actually heard this one before, I like this one.
Captain Coach (01:31:20.665)
Yeah, I think we
ApexDabi (01:31:20.836)
I think more divisions would solve a lot of that. Oh, this guy climbed to, you know, whatever rank with a 30 % win rate, because then that's way more effort in between. Like they really got to win a plethora of games to get like, if it was even four divisions, right. Take away demotion protection, just four divisions, each rank. I think that would genuinely solve a lot of problems. Like a lot of people would be quote unquote,
Stuck in a rank they don't belong in because they they're just not good enough to climb out of that right like you can't just go on a 12 win streak and you know like planet, you know Slingshot yourself and do all right. You don't belong in when there's four divisions That's a lot of luck and I don't even think the luckiest person can climb to that You know celestial one and just like you know slingshot you like you know mm slingshot or whatever you want to call it But those are my three changes
Coach Mills (01:32:02.876)
Right, right.
Coach Mills (01:32:16.274)
I like those changes. The fun maxing changes, I like it. That's good. That's good. Double downing on what makes Rivals good. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:32:20.493)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:32:24.6)
Yeah, I mean, it's like why walk away from it? It's what makes it special. Mm-hmm.
Paz (01:32:25.682)
It's a good idea. Yeah. It ain't broke, don't fix it.
Coach Mills (01:32:27.708)
Yeah. Coach, what's your three?
Captain Coach (01:32:31.247)
I mean, just to piggyback, take it one step farther with the map buffs. How about, I'm thinking Calico from Deadlock, where she can crawl through the little holes and maneuver around the map. Have that with the map so it's not like a buff, but something you can interact with on the map. So maybe Venom can become a part of the map and control something like that.
Paz (01:32:42.3)
yeah.
ApexDabi (01:32:44.93)
oooo
Paz (01:32:46.154)
oooo
Coach Mills (01:32:48.786)
Give fucking...
Paz (01:32:52.091)
Wait, that would be sick though.
ApexDabi (01:32:53.506)
Netties, Netties, please. I don't even want credit, just please.
Coach Mills (01:32:54.92)
That's actually true if you're gonna do this. Double down. That would be sick.
Captain Coach (01:32:59.343)
Um, but yeah, so for me, it's mostly going to be directed at the ranked, would say just, you know, get rid of Skynet or whatever. What did you call it? The, the, the EOM system they use. I, I'm a believer. I don't know why I said that. Talentier.
Coach Mills (01:33:11.41)
No, Sky Knight? shit. Fucking Sky Knight. I think you know, I think you know why you said that. it's okay.
ApexDabi (01:33:11.724)
The end match. That's what they call it. I don't call it that. They call it end match.
Listen, listen, they incorporated that in 2024. What was it? Nine months before they released Rivals. And they published that right before they announced Rivals. So they legally had to do that right before they announced the game that was coming out nine months later, which drops and then all of a sudden, just saying, tinfoil hat, I'm just saying.
Captain Coach (01:33:44.847)
Yeah, Skynet is the AI from the Terminator for anyone who doesn't know. Anyway, so for me, whatever, don't, not saying if they have EOM or not or whatever, just use a traditional ranked ELO system that is a, it's generally a slower curve. It's a number based system where you can clearly see your rating. It's very transparent. I mean, I know it's not gonna happen, but that's just what I want.
ApexDabi (01:33:49.963)
Yeah.
Paz (01:33:51.838)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:34:12.227)
That's number one. Number two is to bring back stacking. If we're a casual game, I don't know why we can't play with our friends in ranks that everybody can get to. So I'd be down to go one of two ways, either what Greg Albert said last week, have a solo queue only queue, and then a full flex, so anywhere from one to six, or just make it so you can stack up to like four, maybe. That's number two. And number three, buffed Dino.
ApexDabi (01:34:18.756)
Ooh. True.
Captain Coach (01:34:41.325)
That's... No, more Biscons! No, number three would probably be kind of, I would say, crack down on cheaters and win traders and the type of game throwing, whatever you want call it, toxicity, the gatekeeping, whatever you want to call it, the games... I want the quality of the games to improve because I think only then are we really going be able to...
Coach Mills (01:34:42.297)
Hahaha!
ApexDabi (01:34:42.574)
Ha ha. Buff died.
Coach Mills (01:34:46.3)
Yeah, I know.
Captain Coach (01:35:10.477)
correctly critique the game's balance. Because I do think that there is varying levels of throwing, right? And a lot of times people are throwing just by picking something that's not good for the team and it's just like, okay, well in that particular game,
whatever hero, ex-hero, just feels super oppressive and it's just like, it's because you're a Spider-Man is kind of just throwing the game and not really shutting them down like they should and there's actually counters that no one, so I want to see a bigger crackdown on these types of behaviors so we can actually get a bigger picture on the game's balance because that's usually my number one is just like the game's balance needs to be fixed but if we, know, as you said, like these systemic problems that kind of lead to more, I think that's where you look, that's where you start and these are things that are not gonna
like be fixed overnight, but I think in the long term are gonna be good for the health of the game. Did you have any ideas Mills? mean, we...
ApexDabi (01:36:07.255)
we gotta hear yours Mills. You've had a foot in the game for a minute.
Coach Mills (01:36:07.563)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, These are more... These are more heart takes. So first I wanna bring Sombra to this game to give pros a real reason to bitch. You know what I'm saying? No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. He said... No, no. said, you know dude? This is the...
Captain Coach (01:36:08.418)
Yeah, of course.
Paz (01:36:09.086)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:36:12.175)
man.
Paz (01:36:18.854)
ApexDabi (01:36:19.192)
Yo, yo coach, why did you bring me here bro? Like why did you like the idea yo, yo, yo? You don't know the lore. I am the biggest Sombra hater in all of planet- like if I could Thanos snap one character in all of fiction, it'd be Sombra. Like-
Captain Coach (01:36:23.065)
What do mean?
Captain Coach (01:36:30.35)
Ha ha ha ha.
Coach Mills (01:36:35.688)
Here's the thing, No, this is the thing, Cap. People hated pros and casuals hated Sombra so much. So her whole kit is that she can deny, she can use something on you that prevents you from using abilities. Like she could just use it on you. Yeah, but she could do it to you and there was no way for you to stop it at one point and then she could ult you and then there was no way for you to stop it and like you just died. But the character is so hated.
Paz (01:36:36.372)
She would make support players actually have to think.
ApexDabi (01:36:38.528)
No, no, no, don't even, don't entertain that, don't give Netties any ideas.
Paz (01:36:50.698)
I ain't gonna lie, I kinda liked it.
Captain Coach (01:36:52.163)
That's a silence. Silence.
ApexDabi (01:37:02.692)
She's also invisible. I think you forgot the part where she's invisible.
Coach Mills (01:37:04.486)
Yeah, yeah, and she's invisible. She can turn perma-invisible. But the thing is, the character was so hated that she's still getting perma-banned to this day in like most ranks, and she's not good anymore. People just have PTSD from fucking three years ago about this character. That's how much they hate this character. They won't let her through the ban phase today.
Paz (01:37:06.088)
Spy check.
Paz (01:37:12.702)
And she's so bad.
ApexDabi (01:37:12.772)
Mm-hmm.
ApexDabi (01:37:25.25)
Well, it's an ability driven game. Why would you want a character in an ability driven game to stop you from using your abilities that you need that are critical for your survival? Her whole kit is to go in this and then right after that, you know, however long, however many seconds you cannot use that ability, EMP. It's just like it's cooked. Yeah. Yeah, it's just like you're cooked.
Coach Mills (01:37:31.362)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:37:44.807)
Like imagine you jumped in as Hulk. Like imagine you jumped in as Hulk and you got hacked and then you lost the ability to bubble, jump, clap for like four seconds. Like you just jumped in and you just don't have your abilities. I'm fucking dead. yeah, yeah you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:37:45.751)
Yeah, a fate worse than death. Watching your teammates die.
ApexDabi (01:37:58.199)
Yeah.
Paz (01:38:00.074)
dude, I'm like the only person in existence that actually likes Sombra. I'm actually the only person. I think she's really interesting.
ApexDabi (01:38:01.716)
Yeah, you're just, you just die.
ApexDabi (01:38:07.606)
I think you're getting paid by whoever created Sombra to like Sombra, because that's crazy.
Coach Mills (01:38:08.356)
Yeah, that makes sense for you. You played Ana and Zen and Bap. Like those characters don't-
Paz (01:38:11.567)
Here's the thing. Here's the thing like she forces you to have neutral though She forces you to you have to have the Diva to shoot someone on the off it dude Imagine Penny Parker Penny Parker would actually be useful for once she literally would Who cares about in phase if you literally can't walk there there? I mean I'm getting a little bit crazy. I get it. I get on your little thing. There's the thing there obviously Obviously, she's annoying but like Diva was like the spy check you would know that
ApexDabi (01:38:18.178)
I mean say that to Doomfist, like what is Doomfist supposed to do with that?
Coach Mills (01:38:18.662)
I mean, that is, that is true.
ApexDabi (01:38:28.034)
Yeah, but on attack?
ApexDabi (01:38:32.888)
D'ah, yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:38:33.367)
Yeah, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Coach Mills (01:38:41.051)
Yeah.
Paz (01:38:41.353)
the popular angles of where she would go. mean, like to be no diva would be so fun. Don't you get me on in this game? No, I don't know. mean, Sabra definitely is not good for this game, but I thought I mean at the highest levels of play like the tippy top, I think she's super interesting. Anything below that? Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Take her out. Like, yeah. Yeah. I can see where you're coming from. 100%. It is really annoying. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:38:43.876)
Mmm. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:38:44.03)
that's another one we need in Rivals is D.Va. No, I'm joking.
Captain Coach (01:38:47.425)
that you are.
Coach Mills (01:38:59.91)
Yeah, I mean you just get spawn camp the sixth time in a row like you did to okay. Anyways, let me give you my real takes Okay, so the first one is the one I pitched on this part a lot the the Deadpool out of combat passive healing I think every single character should get that but there's some caveats. Number one is support healing needs to be nerfed slightly and Mobility characters probably need to be nerfed slightly as well to compensate But then everyone if you're out of combat for like six or eight seconds or whatever you get a very small amount of healing per second across the board
I like that change. think it gives me like, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They just lost them. My second change is I want a further 50 % ult nerf in ult charge. 50%, 50 % from here, 50 % from where we're at right now. And I think, cause I don't think we're even close to enough. And I think that you should like ults like,
Paz (01:39:29.479)
I see what you did there with the dodge, the 6 to 8. I respect that. You stole my...
ApexDabi (01:39:32.932)
Nah, okay, you would have lost the comment section for a good 30 minutes, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:39:33.756)
Ha ha ha.
Paz (01:39:46.633)
50 %
ApexDabi (01:39:47.638)
I agree. No, I honestly, I agree.
Coach Mills (01:39:58.555)
I understand that ulting all the time is fun. Ult should feel like ults. Like ults are special. Like you need to think about them. How you use them matters. They're not just, you don't get 25 of them in a game. You get like eight of them in a game and how you use them matters. Like how you combo them matters. Of course, there probably need to be things to balance around that, but like I would really like that change. And even if you did that, by the way, you would still be building ultimates faster than like...
ApexDabi (01:40:15.278)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:40:28.218)
Overwatch is right now by a lot and like most ever Hyoushu that's ever existed So yeah 50 % ult charge from here people might say it's too much But people thought that the 20 % was gonna feel bad and it felt great So like let's push that until maybe there's diminishing returns The last one might be a little controversial is rework every single sustain slash no skill ult and when I Specifically no skill ults that have a long timer on
So this includes Starlord ult that auto aims. This includes Psylocke ult. This includes Invisal. This concludes Luna ult. This includes these ults that just keep you alive or kill, press Q to kill, press Q to keep you alive, are boring design and they should be reworked. I don't think any Psylocke player likes that their ultimate just does it for you. I don't think any Starlord that has like a thousand hours in aim labs wants their fucking ult to aim for them. And at the same time, I love ults like White Fox.
ApexDabi (01:40:57.24)
Hmm. Okay.
Coach Mills (01:41:25.392)
require you to be proactive and pivot and do all this stuff. Like we don't need ults that just say no one dies, press Q no one dies. We can come up with so many more interesting designs.
ApexDabi (01:41:32.217)
Yeah.
Paz (01:41:35.751)
Once a month though, that's hard. That's a hard challenge. But you're the CEO.
Coach Mills (01:41:39.248)
I mean it is like maybe not every is gonna be a banger. Right, yeah, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:41:41.076)
But you're, hey, you got millions, right? You could, you got millions, so you could hire the people to think for you.
Paz (01:41:43.849)
True! Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. I like this guy!
Coach Mills (01:41:47.784)
They just need to... They just really need to stay away from the... Like, I don't really think that even Luna Snow's have fun, like pressing Q. Like maybe at the beginning it was cool, ooh we're dancing, but like now it's like they also don't have really any agency in the Luna Olle either. you don't... Like the Olt's that people actually like to use, like White Fox, maybe Jeff Olt, like Jeff players really like that shit.
Captain Coach (01:41:49.549)
Hire us!
ApexDabi (01:41:52.684)
Yup.
Captain Coach (01:41:54.989)
I need a job, Mills.
ApexDabi (01:41:56.708)
hahahaha
Paz (01:41:57.481)
you
Coach Mills (01:42:17.552)
and like what else? Like ultra well that that's the thing is it's it's not it's not Presque nothing happens on the enemy team. It's I'm doing something. Yeah, I'm doing like why can't I think all should be I'm doing something like every single one of them like my thing like for me like a perfect goal like Hulk is great like transform ones often great magic Hulk But like and like not every old needs to be like this crazy thing. Like I actually think spider-man all is fine
ApexDabi (01:42:19.318)
Ultron is great. I love Ultron.
Paz (01:42:21.117)
Ultron's a gas.
ApexDabi (01:42:25.836)
Yeah, you'll have to actually aim, yeah.
Paz (01:42:28.403)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:42:32.216)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:42:45.83)
because it's an extension of his kit. it's still, and so it's like same thing BP, like it's not like Star Lord that is a completely different thing that just does value.
Captain Coach (01:42:54.809)
Like, Spider-Man wouldn't be good on Magneto, the Spider-Man alt, you know, because Spider-Man can use it anywhere he wants. No, that's a good point. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:42:58.051)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:42:58.894)
Right, right, Right, right. And Magneto's another example of a great old as well skill like, like.
ApexDabi (01:43:05.078)
Same with like rocket like rocket it fits like it just fits the theme of the character It's not so out of pocket you don't feel like when you throw a rocket all there's clear advantages But very big disadvantages like if you just put it in the middle. They're just gonna nuke it right so like there's like positioning like you have to actually use your be like I got to put it in the corner and like there's like a you know weird spot on this map where it elevates it up You know what I'm talking about?
Coach Mills (01:43:30.757)
Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:43:31.8)
Yeah, like there's stuff like that that really elevates Rocket gameplay from just hitting Q and then, you know, putting it in the middle.
Coach Mills (01:43:37.745)
And I think that like originally when Rocket ult was, wasn't it only damage boost or like mainly damage boost? It was like a lot. But like, I think that that design was cool. It just didn't work in a world where there was ults that just could just keep you alive. Like it just didn't make sense. It just didn't make sense in a world of linear ults. And, and like, and I'm not saying like supports, I'm not trying to just like gut you. I'm saying that there are cooler ults that you can have that would be way more fun. Like, like so much more fun.
ApexDabi (01:43:42.422)
Yeah, yeah, it was bad, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:43:42.765)
Yeah.
Paz (01:43:52.009)
12 seconds. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:43:52.888)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:43:54.511)
Mm-hmm.
ApexDabi (01:44:03.14)
Mm-hmm.
Paz (01:44:06.237)
Nanoboost, come on! Add it!
Coach Mills (01:44:07.976)
Like there are just, sky's the limit. Like why is your hero, like if Ulta's supposed to be the ultimate hero fantasy come to life, why is your hero fantasy I can't die? Like that's not a fantasy. Like do something cool.
Paz (01:44:22.089)
Cause I'm dancing.
ApexDabi (01:44:23.748)
Can I say an honorable mention here? I know this is gonna be a hot take for a lot of Quicksilver fans, but I think Quicksilver would be one of the coolest supports they could ever introduce. Because think about running through your team and healing them. Think about being an active support where like, your ultimate, like you get a zone where everything like slows down and you get to zip around really fast and heal your team. Like you're actively doing something rather than just sitting in the back.
Paz (01:44:27.133)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:44:48.803)
Mmm.
ApexDabi (01:44:53.698)
Watching your ultimate do the work for you, right? You're just like dancing and you're just bringing off not looking for the maggle like you know like I think characters like that instead of just like You know catapulting them into the DPS role cuz that's what you know That's what I'll DPS want the you know something like quick silver to just be a DPS right, but I think he'd make a great support cuz that Yeah, he'd be sick as a support. I'd love them as a support so stuff like that. I think
Coach Mills (01:45:12.484)
Yeah, right.
Oh, he would be super sick. Yeah. You kind of made me think, what if he made like a trail that like gave people like super speed boosts that followed behind him. Like it was like a speed trail. Like you jump on the speed trail and you're fucking, you're in there. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like mock 10. Like you can use it to hard engage if you want to or hard.
ApexDabi (01:45:25.284)
Oh yeah, like that. Exactly. Yeah, you're just zooming and you're getting healed, Like a, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:45:37.581)
Guys, this is Marvel Rivals though, if it was a support that Speed Trail would heal him to full health and give everybody all charge.
ApexDabi (01:45:41.54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but
Coach Mills (01:45:42.152)
Ow, ow.
Paz (01:45:42.249)
And then the dinosaur would then snap the entire community.
Coach Mills (01:45:45.286)
Yeah, that's what-
But you know, it's a good thing that we're not devs. No, I'm just kidding. It would be cool. It'd be cool if they actually took some of our feedback one of these days. We'll see.
ApexDabi (01:45:58.754)
Listen, mean, they're, think, I think out of all of the developers that I have ever personally had an interaction with, I think, and this is no offense to all the other devs, right? I think Rivals devs genuinely do care about their creators. Like, they genuinely listen. Whenever we make a complaint in whatever, the Discord or, you know, if we have any interaction, they're there and they're like present, right? They're like,
Coach Mills (01:46:09.553)
offend them.
ApexDabi (01:46:23.094)
Yeah, and then you see that change, whether it's a couple weeks or a couple months from now, you're like, my God, we talked about that and now it's in the game. Like they genuinely care about us, they include us. I mean, me personally, I would have never had the chance to work with, you know, an IP like Marvel if NetEase didn't give an olive branch to all the smaller creators, right? Normally it's always just the same, you know, big 10 creators that get these opportunities, but...
And Rivals bro, we're being listened to, we're being included in the conversation, we're being included in the, you know, the new character previews, like I've never seen any other company do that besides Rivals. Like they genuinely helped bring the community together, especially the smaller community. it just so, it gets so, I guess, lost in the sauce when a new game comes out. They just go to the shrouds, which I understand, but they go to the shrouds, you know, the big boys, right?
Coach Mills (01:47:17.723)
Right. Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:47:18.677)
And I think Rivals does it better than any other company. They really do shout out for the smaller guy.
Coach Mills (01:47:23.194)
Yeah. Yeah. I always glaze Nettys because I've had like very shitty interactions with Blizzard and very shitty interactions with Riot Games and like every fucking eSports company that I've ever worked with or made content on besides Nettys has like treated me terribly to be honest. And it's just because like you don't like I don't have enough zeros on my subscriber count. You know, like that's why. And but Nettys is like they
ApexDabi (01:47:31.812)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
ApexDabi (01:47:43.235)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:47:48.162)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:47:52.05)
they enable you, they support you. Like I felt that like throughout it. So I know like, like, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:47:55.716)
Yeah, and I think a lot of us felt it. Yeah, like I think a lot of us felt it through just even the Some a lot of you guys are in the discord like the the partner discord you feel like they really are attentive like you ask questions They answer I got I don't know. Sorry. I'm very passionate about it But I've been in I've been doing content creation for so long and I think we can we can say all of these things about rivals but the one thing that they do right is they treat their community and their core fan base and their creators properly
They never, they don't hold anything. Like they're just like, yeah, here's all the content. Here's all the tools. Do something, right? Give us feedback.
Coach Mills (01:48:34.593)
The one thing I will say is so I mean there was a little bit of a small rivals drama that happened a while back there was like this throwing widow or something I don't know what happened, but there was a big tournament that got you know that that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So anyways, that was the first of what was supposed to be a whole bunch of tournaments, right? And so like net net is was going to sponsor a ton of tournaments like I like I got invited to a quite a few of them and there was like these tournaments that was gonna happen after that drama happened
ApexDabi (01:48:43.192)
Yeah.
All you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:48:52.505)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:49:02.97)
Understandably so they said nah fuck this shit. We're packing this shit up. All i'm telling you is netties Please give us as a rivals community one more chance if we fuck it up again you never have to throw another tournament for the rest of the fucking life, but Like we just need one one more chance to to to actually you know Participate in some tournaments throw some tournaments. I think that those are some of the most fun community events possible is the tournaments
ApexDabi (01:49:15.993)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:49:30.844)
especially when they're of mixed skill, concept creators, keep the fucking pros out of there. They're just bitching about Dino anyways. They don't wanna play in no tournaments. just like, let our, let concept creators maybe even just grab like random players too. Like they put them in a drawing, I don't know, just put like one of the six being a random person. Like that'd be awesome. And just throw some tournaments. Like I think that'd be really, really cool. And I hope they do it again in the future and they don't kind of completely give up and like rug pull all tournaments forever. So like hope not.
ApexDabi (01:49:31.288)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:49:36.78)
Mm-hmm.
ApexDabi (01:49:59.15)
Yeah.
I genuinely think we're headed in the right direction. think you guys have noticed slowly but surely. I think Rivals has just been negative, negative, negative, especially on Twitter and every social media. It's just like every trending moment has been, this is happening, right? And it's just negative light. And slowly we're walking away from that. And a lot of creators are starting to really go out there and collab with each other. And we're making content again, right? We're having fun.
Captain Coach (01:50:01.625)
Amen.
Coach Mills (01:50:01.675)
ApexDabi (01:50:30.372)
It starts with that. It starts with creators talking to each other and having fun, dropping the ego. It's not about your rank. It's not about like that shiny badge, right? We want good things to happen for the game, we gotta start talking to each other. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:50:37.128)
Yeah, we're we're kicking out the drags of the of the community we're getting rid of the drags of the community like this guy and I was kidding you But no no, it's I think honestly Paz I think The the rate like the reason that you probably didn't connect with rivals as much like I know you were on that that unranked GM grind like that was kind of your whole mission
Captain Coach (01:50:44.847)
Hahaha, pass!
Paz (01:50:46.569)
I'll see myself out.
Coach Mills (01:51:01.97)
But like what we're talking about with like community engagement, playing in tournaments, playing with each other, grinding together, like you didn't, you just weren't really a part of any of that because you're always doing the unranked GMs. Like I do feel like that can, like if it's a true, like the truly like more casual, for fun game that Rivals is, like you can't really just do this shit by yourself and expect yourself to stay sane. Like you can't just grind games by yourself every day and like.
Paz (01:51:12.179)
Yeah.
Paz (01:51:24.467)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:51:25.838)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:51:26.307)
Yeah.
Paz (01:51:28.494)
man. No.
Coach Mills (01:51:29.028)
And have a good time, like you're just not gonna have a good time. This goes to just like solo, like people that grind the game, like, like if you're having a really hard time, like get, find a partner, find a buddy, find someone that will endure that shit with you, that y'all can bitch about the Invis or the inting Hulk together, like y'all can complain together and you're not just like, it's not like, this Hulk just inted my game, fuck, it's like, dude, that guy sucks, yeah, you're right, he sucks, you know, like that's what you want, right? Like.
Paz (01:51:44.521)
Hahaha
Captain Coach (01:51:55.567)
Why does it gotta be Hulk? What the fuck man?
Coach Mills (01:51:56.585)
I got it has to be a realistic example. Okay. No, I'm kidding These two drunk idiots through our game
ApexDabi (01:51:56.598)
It's also take breaks, man. Take breaks.
Paz (01:51:57.157)
Yeah, why is it a log, huh? Yeah, yeah, projecting?
ApexDabi (01:52:01.378)
Yeah, but but like you know people have to take breaks man they They need to know that if you dump 500 hours in one breath, and you're like the burnout dude You burn yourself out You can play another game like just take a break play a single-player game. I being competitive your entire life That's great, but it's super unhealthy. You'll burn out out of every game. You've ever played. It's just a
Captain Coach (01:52:01.763)
Ha ha ha.
Captain Coach (01:52:06.219)
no!
Coach Mills (01:52:17.329)
Yeah, yeah.
Coach Mills (01:52:21.213)
Pull up, yeah.
Captain Coach (01:52:22.35)
Hey.
ApexDabi (01:52:31.684)
Once you hit that that you know that that certain skill ceiling or a certain rank that you think you deserve Dude, you're gonna burn out after the 2,000th hour that you've done the same exact thing right? You're a solo queue demon. We know but you got to have fun, man
Captain Coach (01:52:44.833)
yeah, mils, maybe next maybe next time we do that drinking stream we start at the bottom instead of the top you two are formally invited by the way, Navi and Paz, you're formally invited unranked the GM while drunk
Coach Mills (01:52:53.652)
god, and we bring and we bring Dobby along and we bring Well, wait, bro, bro, unright on junk unranked the GM with captain coach and Dobby like what the fuck are we doing here?
ApexDabi (01:52:55.003)
bro, that's what me and the boys do.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Paz (01:53:02.185)
You
Captain Coach (01:53:06.702)
HAHAHA
ApexDabi (01:53:07.918)
Dude, me and the boys, I don't know if you guys know, like Mark Deasy and Panu, we do this every other weekend. We have saucy Saturdays. We just hop on, grab a couple of beers, and we just play. it's like, it's bro, it's some of the most fun, engaging content that the community has ever seen. And it's just, dude, it brings back that like, my, it's just, know, with the boys, you know, gaming, right? It's GM, it's nothing too serious, right? We're still winning, we're still losing.
Captain Coach (01:53:12.962)
Yeah!
Coach Mills (01:53:23.08)
That's crazy, that's crazy
Captain Coach (01:53:24.111)
Put me in coach, put me in.
Coach Mills (01:53:31.568)
Right, yeah.
ApexDabi (01:53:36.75)
Can't win them all like Galacta says, right? So, you know, we gotta bring that back, That's a step forward, is we, more positivity and more fun. Just, no more competitive. They do, the competitive guys do it enough for all of us. they do it enough.
Captain Coach (01:53:39.471)
Hmm
Coach Mills (01:53:56.048)
All right, well, I think that we're just about wraps up everything. Paz, is there anything you want to close on? Anything you want to say to your audience or the Marlboro community as a whole? Because this probably will be the last time you will address them directly. Yeah.
Paz (01:54:04.717)
Uhhh...
Captain Coach (01:54:07.319)
I mean, we'll check back in with you too maybe in a couple of months and see if you've changed your opinion.
Paz (01:54:10.345)
Yeah, mean, yeah, I mean, just to be fair, like Rivals was like the, well, if this don't work, it's time to get the nine to five and flip some burgers. But I learned a lot from this community. just, I'm thankful for the people that were willing to learn, even though some people did not agree with the, the method. I think a lot of people learned. think a lot of people enjoyed the game more because of it. I'm just happy that I
got the chance to meet people and like do all these crazy cool things and like if it wasn't for rivals I wouldn't be in the like the place that I am today so I'm just thankful thankful for the podcast thankful for everything just thanks for having me there's nothing really else to say it's just like it's kind of crazy that this is the reality now that I'm I've done this stuff so
Coach Mills (01:54:50.024)
Of course.
Coach Mills (01:54:55.24)
Yeah, this podcast is called Clear Coms. It's not called a Marvel Rivals podcast. So eventually we might all be in your boat. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:54:55.575)
Yeah, man.
Paz (01:54:59.049)
You
ApexDabi (01:54:59.287)
Hahaha
Captain Coach (01:55:00.216)
Hahaha
ApexDabi (01:55:02.315)
Yeah.
Paz (01:55:04.718)
Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:55:04.94)
Listen, I think we all rotate, Everything that we've ever done as a creator has a shelf life. No matter how much we want to say, no, it's gonna go on forever, no, the good old times are the good old times, because they've ended.
Captain Coach (01:55:16.719)
I'm gonna be showing my Hulk plays to my kids, man.
Paz (01:55:18.555)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:55:21.592)
Gotta adapt, gotta do what, exactly.
ApexDabi (01:55:23.704)
Yeah, you gotta adapt. Can't put all your eggs in one basket. I think we've all done that with certain companies in our past.
Paz (01:55:27.218)
Yeah
Coach Mills (01:55:29.818)
Yeah, yeah. so, yeah, Dobby, can, anything you want to say to, to just the general rivals community and yeah.
Paz (01:55:29.839)
Yeah, I know all too well.
Captain Coach (01:55:31.183)
See you next time.
ApexDabi (01:55:44.66)
I just want to say that look beyond the 30 second clip that you see of your favorite creator and your favorite pro player and really stop chasing headlines because I think as a community we have come to the we've come to a point where we just got to be kinder to each other and I know that sounds crazy coming from from me I know a lot of guys are going to be really mad that I'm saying of all people
Coach Mills (01:56:12.594)
Day!
ApexDabi (01:56:14.062)
But no, at the end of the day, genuinely, we just have to be forget, like we have to remember it's just a video game at the end of the Like there's no reason to go beyond the normal trash talk, right? We're just playing a game. it's all cool. I think we can, as a community, we can grow. We cannot be League of Legends. The stigma that League of Legends got, we don't have to be that, right? We can be the change that we strive for.
Captain Coach (01:56:28.238)
Yeah.
Coach Mills (01:56:35.878)
Hey!
ApexDabi (01:56:41.892)
That's all I have to say I mean thank you for having me on thank you for the rivals community for putting me on I came from from overwatch, so I'm a overwatch refugee Very grateful for for the opportunities. I'm given and I'm honestly dude. I'm grateful I get to wake up and play video games for a living like dude look at us who gets to do this man Like who gets to do this besides us? It's it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, so I'm No matter how mad I am right no matter how upset I look
Coach Mills (01:56:44.964)
Anytime. Of course.
Paz (01:56:59.753)
True.
Coach Mills (01:57:00.52)
Well, you know.
ApexDabi (01:57:11.83)
At the end of the day, when I hit that I'm done stream, I am eternally grateful. Like, this is a dream come true, man. We get to entertain people for a living, so.
Coach Mills (01:57:21.936)
Let's go. And where can people find you if they want to support you, they want to see? Avery Social.
ApexDabi (01:57:26.24)
ApexDobby on socials Yup, that's if it's anything other than ApexDobby, it's not me. It ain't me. That's it. Twitter, YouTube. I'm not used to like promoting and glazing myself on some on other people's on someone else's platform. So my fault if I'm if I'm stuttering a lot. Yeah. But yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, man. It's been a pleasure.
Coach Mills (01:57:43.406)
No, well, we'll glaze you plenty. No, no, we're good. No, we like it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. no, it's been great. Thank you so much for coming on. No, it's been, it's been sick. It's been sick. Captain coach. want to
Captain Coach (01:57:47.522)
Ha ha ha.
ApexDabi (01:57:55.98)
Also, sorry for the viewers if I yapp too much. I, dude, it's like I'm an S tier yapper, bro. 10th prestige.
Coach Mills (01:57:59.122)
No, it was actually perfect. No, it was actually perfect. yeah. and coach, any final messages before we end the pod? Any things you want to say?
Paz (01:57:59.945)
That was great. It was great.
Captain Coach (01:58:00.011)
You're good
That's why we brought you out, man.
ApexDabi (01:58:04.106)
Yeah.
Captain Coach (01:58:11.455)
yeah, man, I mean, I think it's a good sentiment to end on. mean, I personally have been kind of going down more of that road, you know, just trying to be more productive and less, less loud, I would say. I mean, I think Dabi and I have kind of gone through a bit of a similar arc. So I just, yeah, I mean, likewise, man, appreciate everybody with the community. And I think this game has a bright future. I really do.
I couldn't be more grateful and I'm looking forward to the next Devil Dino release, whatever that may be.
Coach Mills (01:58:41.576)
For some reason I feel like I'm going the opposite trajectory of y'all where like I start off as this wholesome streamer and now I have like a whole bunch of fucking like Like what there's this there's these fucking guys that like I Like I keep running to these people where I either didn't do what I was supposed to do according to them in their games And now they're just in my chat every day like rage baiting me like non-stop
ApexDabi (01:58:50.212)
Slowly losing his starting to tweak
Captain Coach (01:58:51.011)
HAHAHAHA
Paz (01:58:53.744)
YES!
Captain Coach (01:59:06.841)
Dude... Tru- True Lord is reformed, by the way.
Coach Mills (01:59:11.176)
Yeah, he was in my chat the other day! What the fu- What does he do?
Captain Coach (01:59:13.659)
He's like yeah, he chills in my chat. like a chill. We duo'd. He's like a normal guy now. mean if the true lord can reform, I don't see why all of us can't either, you know? Yeah.
ApexDabi (01:59:23.288)
Listen, if Tyler1 can reform, anyone can reform. That guy, he became the face of League after he reformed. So anything is possible.
Paz (01:59:26.153)
True, true-ers.
Coach Mills (01:59:37.423)
Well anyways, thank you guys for coming on the pod. Smash that like and subscribe. Let us know who you wanna have on next and appreciate y'all for coming on guys. Peace out.
ApexDabi (01:59:38.99)
Sorry.
ApexDabi (01:59:44.516)
appreciate it.
Captain Coach (01:59:49.258)
we got 10 seconds for two hours. Let's someone sing a little song or something.
ApexDabi (01:59:49.528)
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me,