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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;15;27
Aaron
Hey, everyone!
00;00;16;00 - 00;00;16;16
Aaron
What's going on?
00;00;16;16 - 00;00;18;25
Pri
GM. GM yeah! Glorious
00;00;18;26 - 00;00;21;23
Aaron
GM is GM back! Are we back.
00;00;21;23 - 00;00;22;17
Chris
Friday.
00;00;22;20 - 00;00;24;13
Aaron
Or are we back in GM land?
00;00;24;15 - 00;00;30;17
Pri
GM GM is always existing exist. I think the question is are we back in WAGMI land? I.
00;00;30;19 - 00;00;41;06
Chris
I don't think WAGMI ever comes back. I think we're all collectively memory hold that on. Is a bridge too far a little too earnest. People wore their hearts on their sleeves and they're embarrassed by it.
00;00;41;08 - 00;00;49;07
Aaron
I thought there was some nice things about that. It was like very positive and supportive. I feel like, the entire world could use a little bit of of wag me sometimes.
00;00;49;09 - 00;00;50;14
Pri
I like the optimism.
00;00;50;14 - 00;01;09;08
Chris
It's, It's fine up to a point. I do feel like you know, some comments around toxic positivity were, not out of line, but in general, like, why not? Why not believe the best in people? Why not believe that's what I every day, every day is just a day full of opportunity. And it's on us to go out and make it.
00;01;09;08 - 00;01;11;01
Chris
But the world is working in our favor.
00;01;11;01 - 00;01;13;22
Aaron
Every day is day one. Every day is day one.
00;01;13;25 - 00;01;18;11
Chris
Oh, man, you want to trigger me like that so soon? Into the pod. You just. Why is that.
00;01;18;11 - 00;01;20;16
Aaron
Triggering? Why is that triggering that?
00;01;20;16 - 00;01;25;03
Chris
Because that was the name of Coinbase's event on Thursday, Aaron. That's why.
00;01;25;05 - 00;01;26;10
Aaron
How are you feeling about that?
00;01;26;14 - 00;01;38;25
Pri
We said know. Wait. Sorry. Just back to why for a second. You know what? I'm just like, googling right now that I kind of forgot about is like, how's wag me United doing? Do you guys remember my United.
00;01;38;28 - 00;01;39;26
Aaron
I hope? Well.
00;01;39;28 - 00;01;40;13
Pri
You know, I.
00;01;40;13 - 00;01;47;28
Chris
Think there's they're called Crawley Town. I don't believe they ever officially became WAG United. And I believe it's still going okay.
00;01;47;28 - 00;01;48;15
Pri
Cool.
00;01;48;17 - 00;01;50;28
Aaron
I thought that was cool. I like that project.
00;01;50;29 - 00;02;06;24
Pri
It was cool. I just like, haven't seen anything on their Twitter account for a while. So it was like, you know, you know, what's the update on Live United? But any who we can ask around and figure it out, I just haven't thought about it in a minute. But back to, triggering what's triggering Chris this week.
00;02;06;28 - 00;02;08;20
Chris
What's triggering Chris, this.
00;02;08;22 - 00;02;12;00
Aaron
Is it's like a new bit, a new segment that we're going to have.
00;02;12;02 - 00;02;13;25
Pri
Honestly, I have a couple things I could add.
00;02;13;26 - 00;02;15;01
Aaron
What what's triggering you.
00;02;15;01 - 00;02;20;01
Pri
Pre I don't know, but let me think about it. Like things just annoy me. It's like hard to keep count.
00;02;20;03 - 00;02;41;02
Aaron
Well I mean look I mean it's been an interesting week. I feel like it's one that's been building up. And we spent a lot of time talking about for the past, you know, a couple months. Right. You're seeing a lot of positive momentum around digital assets. You're seeing kind of these bills that players and other policy folks have worked on for, what, months, years and at least months in the current form years.
00;02;41;02 - 00;03;00;20
Aaron
And the concepts just kind of coming, coming together, getting getting support. You see a lot of kind of positivity around digital assets, you know, price pride to a degree we haven't seen since like the dark days of Covid, which is which is kind of interesting. I don't know, it feels like we turned a little bit of a corner, knock on wood, with some of these things.
00;03;00;23 - 00;03;14;20
Chris
The vibes are good. The market makers have no more eath at their desk to OTC. The delta neutral hedges have been blown out. Yeah, short sellers, been caught. Apparently it's rocket ship to the moon time. Yeah.
00;03;14;20 - 00;03;22;21
Aaron
I mean, do you think it is that or is it just like a kind of a mean reversion? I think that's been the question I've been trying to understand a little bit more of.
00;03;22;22 - 00;03;39;10
Chris
We won't know for months. I mean, and, you know, we've all been waiting for the miracle. We've been waiting for the day where, you know, we finally break the shackles and does the things we've always wanted it to do. Hopefully it'd be there. I kind of think maybe it legs up a little bit and then lays off and then, you know, come, come.
00;03;39;10 - 00;03;54;01
Chris
The fall is when we really see what happens. But look for each summer rally. That'd be great. You know, that would be a real on chain summer. That would be something people who are on chain on south and chain in chain can get excited about.
00;03;54;03 - 00;04;13;29
Aaron
Yeah, it's but it's weird because it's almost like not on chain. Right? Like a lot of this activity is just like that either. Or it seems like interest that's that's spawning from regulatory clarity or anticipated regulatory clarity, along with kind of the digestion of parts of the digital asset ecosystem into into Wall Street. Right. It's almost like off chain.
00;04;14;01 - 00;04;15;29
Pri
I was actually thinking that too. It's like we're like.
00;04;16;03 - 00;04;17;29
Chris
Very often summer.
00;04;18;02 - 00;04;35;18
Pri
This might be like the first bull run or like whatever hype cycle in crypto I've seen that's like literally not on chain. Like I would love to know, like the on chain activity right now as opposed to just like the pure buying of the in Bitcoin from like Gemini or Coinbase that's happening.
00;04;35;21 - 00;04;41;03
Chris
I saw something where like main that transaction volume is back at 21 levels. I want to.
00;04;41;03 - 00;04;43;18
Pri
Say really okay. That's actually helpful.
00;04;43;18 - 00;04;58;00
Aaron
I think it's one of those things. Yeah. Just like kind of it's growing in the shadows, right? It's not something people are going to, you know, yammer about on your favorite social media platform. But it does feel like that stuff has been, like steadily marching like forward.
00;04;58;05 - 00;05;24;00
Pri
I mean, my understanding or thinking and maybe this is like too myopic is like the on chain people got so burned by mean quant meme coins and AI tokens that they're like, kind of sitting this out. And most of that cohort of hyper traders had already sold their eath in Bitcoin ages ago because, you know, they've been in it for such a long time that part of this move is like purely just like Boomer Wall Street or most of this move was boomer Wall Street.
00;05;24;00 - 00;05;35;24
Pri
And like the early folks were to burn to to still do stuff on chain at the moment. But maybe, maybe my, assumption around that is off. If the on chain activity was like 21 levels, I.
00;05;35;29 - 00;05;45;25
Aaron
Think it's like, what's the what type of on chain activity? I don't actually know the answer to it, but I bet it's a lot more kind of transactional stuff or stablecoin related or. I think that's a good question.
00;05;45;25 - 00;06;07;15
Chris
It's certainly not a 10-K for gas wars. Yeah. Not yeah. That that is quiet. Yeah. I in some ways you can think about this from like a segmentation standpoint because, you know, maybe some of that is volatility from the on chain trading crowd. Now just losing Hyperledger is perps. And so you know part of this has been siloed elsewhere.
00;06;07;21 - 00;06;33;22
Chris
I mean pump did have a big ICO. And so you know the the meme people, or people wanting token launchpad exposure, you know, certainly hopped over on Solana and bought the shit out of pump, you know, so, I mean, that ain't the only game in town anymore. I mean, you know, there's a big, stupid blue square that thinks it's for everyone that, you know, is running its own pseudo decentralized.
00;06;33;24 - 00;06;38;24
Chris
It doesn't reside on main main that I mean, you know, activity as far, activity as wide.
00;06;38;27 - 00;06;44;20
Pri
That's sure. Okay. Fair point, fair point. I was being very one dimensional about it may not, but you guys.
00;06;44;24 - 00;07;04;19
Aaron
I think I think that that's what's so interesting about this stuff. Right. Because it is open, permissionless, whether it is Bitcoin, ether, Solana, some of these other ecosystems, it is kind of hard to get a full picture of all the activity and, and see it kind of change and materialize. Right. Like it may maybe in an area you're not focused on or a region of the world that you're not focused on.
00;07;04;19 - 00;07;12;06
Aaron
I think that that's kind of the strength is also results in some of the ambiguity. But Chris, you didn't pick up your juice, your base juice fight LA for it.
00;07;12;10 - 00;07;14;24
Pri
The airline club was kind of genius, though.
00;07;14;25 - 00;07;25;07
Aaron
I kind of liked it. Yeah, I feel like I feel like I don't know, I don't I don't blame Coinbase for all this stuff. I think they're just they're doing their job and they seem to be executing at a pretty, pretty high level.
00;07;25;07 - 00;07;46;26
Chris
No, no, they're they're doing their job in one side of their house for sure. They're clustering assets. They're providing exchange services. No one is up in arms, you know, screaming and crying over having their accounts locked. And so, you know, the basic blocking and tackling of what Coinbase ought to be doing, they seem to be doing that well.
00;07;46;29 - 00;08;10;25
Chris
And kudos to them. I don't think we should give them any credit for something that really was a launch announcement and hasn't done done anything or proven anything yet. And so, you know, that's, I have very, very complicated feelings about coin Coinbase. It's hard for me to unpack and separate, but something is very wrong with all of their attempts to enter into the culture space.
00;08;10;25 - 00;08;37;27
Chris
I think the way they go about it is exceptionally empty and air space and doesn't have any like actual soul or feel to it, and I don't I don't particularly fault them for trying. I mean, it's their job as a corporation where I get weird is seeing people's reactions to it, seeing people's cheerleading for it. I find it very, very strange why they're given such a long rope and why they're given such a pass in these efforts, when in the past they've mostly failed.
00;08;37;27 - 00;08;57;17
Chris
And maybe this is a generational thing. Maybe I just have a really black heart and I'm cynical, but I find it's like rooting for an insurance company or rooting for a financial institution. And it's it's really it's strange to me, like I grew up in a company town, you know, State Street Bank and trust was headquartered in Quincy, mass.
00;08;57;17 - 00;09;18;08
Chris
At all their back offices there. And my mom worked there. I had some jobs there, and what they were was a paycheck. And what else they were. It was a stodgy couple hundred year old institutional trust company. They're a bank. And you didn't have any emotions about that bank unless you work there. And they did something at work that annoyed you.
00;09;18;14 - 00;09;47;11
Chris
And so I just find it really weird, you know, the people. And this is ironic because, you know, I'm giving my emotions, I'm giving my attention and feeling to this part of things. I'm just doing it in the other direction. I just like, I don't understand why people get excited about or cheerlead for a major financial institution. It just feels off and it feels wrong to me and all their past attempts to earn that affection have not really gone that far.
00;09;47;11 - 00;10;05;04
Chris
And they haven't paid off for people. And so I just, I find it really quizzical. But I also find their marketing and how they present themselves on that side of the house as incredibly empty and cringe. And so I'm just I'm really, really confused. And I think that confusion leads to strong reactions for me.
00;10;05;04 - 00;10;24;02
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, we love the strong reactions, Chris. I guess for me, the way I kind of look at it is, you know, they've been here for a long time. I think they've been probably they've expanded outside of where they initially started, which was primarily like as a Bitcoin company and like an inclusive big tent way, like they are committed to kind of reimagining what finance can look like.
00;10;24;02 - 00;10;51;24
Aaron
Obviously, with themselves having like a major role in doing that, which is kind of exciting, right? Like if you got into this because of questions or concerns you may have had around the great financial crisis or because you like, like finance or because you like, you know, on chain media, I do think that they do their best to kind of try to capture that in their big tent, and they do want to bring it to, you know, the hundreds of millions of people, I guess they are to kind of reach tens of millions of people, hundreds of millions and billions of people.
00;10;51;24 - 00;11;07;14
Aaron
And I think it's just difficult to do that without, you know, kind of appealing a bit more to the, the middle. Right. So I think from that you're going to get a couple things that maybe like a little bit like a little bit cheesy or you know, like a little bit like over the maybe not over the top is the right word, but you.
00;11;07;14 - 00;11;31;13
Chris
Know, you can use over the top. We can point to Trump's military parade as something that was, over the top or at the top. Fringe. And, you know, to me, I think the fact that they are willing to go everywhere without any, any sort of discretion around that, you know, just shows, I don't know, a lack of caring or a lack of, understanding of, you know, places they do want to win.
00;11;31;13 - 00;12;01;16
Chris
I'm sorry. I don't want my everything app to also, you know, sponsored vanity, US military parades. Like how do I feel cool about that? How do I feel like I'm part of a digital culture? You know, that also is like, oh, shit, we got to, make friends with the administration. So let's write a big check and, throw a banner all over some outdated tanks in event that most people find distasteful and many mock like, it's that lack of discretion.
00;12;01;16 - 00;12;21;03
Chris
It's that lack of editorial opinion. You know, to me, says like, this is not a place I don't trust my time or my attention, or it's not a place where I want my communications to be anchored around. It's not a source I want to go to for digital culture. You know, there's there's a lot of that to me.
00;12;21;03 - 00;12;41;01
Chris
Like it's maybe it is how many conflicting signals I see out of them, like because I really do appreciate their core business. You know, I've been a customer in the past. And so, you know, I that side of the house, I have a lot of respect for and their accomplishments. But the other side of the House, and it's not just them, it's their family tree.
00;12;41;01 - 00;12;57;18
Chris
You know Coinbase in a six degrees of Kevin Bacon way. They they play the hand in our cobblers. Right. It's not too far to go. Go down Coinbase's family tree and get to our cobblers. And so like maybe I just see too much. Maybe I make too many connections. But it bothers me.
00;12;57;22 - 00;13;18;06
Pri
I think a couple things are happening here where it's like, I think it might that might be other. So it's like a couple things at Coinbase. To Aaron's point, has done so much for the ecosystem depending on like what your objective for crypto was long term. Like maybe, you know, there's definitely a portion of crypto that probably want a crypto community that probably would never wanted to, you know, be Blackrock ified.
00;13;18;06 - 00;13;38;29
Pri
But assuming you were one of those people that, like, really wanted crypto in the hands of everyone, Coinbase is probably one of like if not be one, but one of like three companies that has helped and done a lot of the heavy lifting to kind of make that come, you know, become more of a realization that I do think it's really as a result of that.
00;13;38;29 - 00;13;56;10
Pri
It's like really hard for people me to. So it's not like I have to like, respect and root for the work they've done. Not necessarily like rooting for Coinbase as a banking institution and a trading platform, because I don't again, like, I don't care about that, but I think more like the not cultural significance, I guess you could say.
00;13;56;10 - 00;14;12;22
Pri
But the significant role that they have play it and like the capital and influence that they've put in order to make like crypto a larger thing, I think is like no one can kind of dispute that. What would be like funding companies or, you know, doing the like work on the Hill or whatever, so on and so forth.
00;14;12;22 - 00;14;39;10
Pri
So like, I think it's really hard for people to want to criticize that at the same time. Like the other thing also can be true like Coinbase recent, you know, move into like entering the more like cultural digital culture sphere has been like interesting to watch like the moves that they made. I think this might be, you know, not to offend any listeners, but I do think they have like a very San Francisco go approach to communication and style, which doesn't land.
00;14;39;10 - 00;15;01;14
Pri
I think for some people. I'm trying to be really polite about that, but I'm hoping that maybe they could. I hear the right people that, like, evolves over time as they kind of get out the door. I mean, I think they are trying and they're trying in a lot of different directions that don't really make any coherent sense, like doing that, like military parade and then like arrow on some of these in L.A, like it's all sort of all over the place appealing to a lot of different audiences.
00;15;01;18 - 00;15;18;04
Pri
It's disjointed, it's confusing. I also find it a little bit like corny, even like the just like the brand look and feel like sometimes I feel like I'm like, what's happening here? But at the same time, I'm not going to like, I like, can't I like physically? Still, I'm rooting for Coinbase.
00;15;18;05 - 00;15;33;02
Aaron
I'm rooting for them. Yeah. I mean, to me what I see is just more like they are trying to hit different audiences like they do want to build a big tent, like they're not trying to build like a niche product. They're trying to build, you know, the next broad based American financial institution. Right. And, and, but.
00;15;33;02 - 00;15;41;22
Chris
They're not trying to build just a financial institution basis for everyone. And you'll eat bugs and then you will poop, poop and you will coin it.
00;15;41;27 - 00;15;45;08
Aaron
What do you do? I maybe I missed that one first. What?
00;15;45;11 - 00;15;53;24
Chris
I'm sorry, but I feel like their their efforts on the cultural side boil down to we are Coinbase and you will eat bugs like they're not serving anything.
00;15;53;28 - 00;16;13;24
Aaron
I think they're you know I think they're trying to figure that out. Right. And like I do think somebody will have like look I mean I think they may have just hit like a all time high in their, their stock price. And I do think that they're kind of moving into like away from startup land into like, hey, like they're just a big American company and I do think, you know, and we we felt that here.
00;16;13;24 - 00;16;37;06
Aaron
I do think the future of finance is going to have more cultural elements to it. Right. Like it's still not outside of the realm of possibility. And, you know, in my mind, I still think it is, at some point this will be the endpoint, right, where you're not going to just be owning stocks or bonds or stablecoins or even like, you know, governance tokens or all the other things that are in, in the, in the crypto ecosystem.
00;16;37;06 - 00;16;57;17
Aaron
But more cultural items, right? NFTs, media objects, etc., and I view what they're trying to do there is begin to explore how they can build something, you know, at mass at scale for that growing economy. So I don't blame them for that. You know, in terms of like, you know, picking on on them for specific marketing decisions, like, nobody's going to do that perfectly.
00;16;57;17 - 00;17;22;14
Aaron
I know both you guys are very good at those types of things, and maybe I'm being a little bit naive there, but I do think that they they kind of went through the Crucible over the past couple of years. And I think that they're they're trying to kind of push beyond that and maybe find out what that that next voice is, and maybe they're just running some experiments related to it, like, or where they're their next, you know, x ten tens of millions of users maybe.
00;17;22;16 - 00;17;22;28
Aaron
So I don't.
00;17;22;28 - 00;17;42;22
Chris
Know. All right. Well I don't want to like, you know, stay circling around something that the financial of everything is a prickly issue for me. I do believe in the human spirit. I do believe in independent teams and that we should have our own developed tastes. We should express them as free as we can. You know, to exist is to be complicit.
00;17;42;22 - 00;18;02;15
Chris
But I'm very doubtful. Should Coinbase succeed, I will find anything on the culture side of the House that's going to resonate with me. And so such is life. Everyone network is permissionless. Everyone has their choices. Everyone can, you know, is free to do what they want. And so let's just leave it there. Yeah.
00;18;02;15 - 00;18;21;27
Aaron
I mean, like in Chris, like I'm it's not out of the realm of possibility to me that, you know, that whether it's, it's Coinbase, whether it's like some of these earlier companies like they may they may age like some of the earlier web one type companies that. Right. Which outside of Amazon, it was a hard thing to kind of stay relevant, evolve your business, scale that business over time.
00;18;21;27 - 00;18;39;24
Aaron
And you know, once we have regulatory clarity, I do think that and it looks like that's coming into place like, you know, developers should be attracted to that. Entrepreneurs should be attracted to that. There's going to be more competition that kind of comes out on the other side of that. And I think that that's kind of what we saw after regulations came into place for the internet.
00;18;39;24 - 00;19;00;09
Aaron
Right. And that's, I think, hard for people to remember. I was very young when a lot of that stuff was happening, but it used to be hyper risky to to build like an internet platform because of intellectual property, copyright related issues that cleared up. And, you know, you saw like an ecosystem of new projects that came came out after that, regulatory clarity really started to materialize.
00;19;00;10 - 00;19;19;08
Aaron
And a lot of them are the name brands that we know today. I don't know what Coinbase's future is. I do think it's reasonably to very bright, like in my in my view. But, you know, there's also a possibility that they could age a little bit like Yahoo did. And maybe there's like a Google or, you know, some new project or an existing project that kind of matures into, you know, something that is is for the masses.
00;19;19;13 - 00;19;20;16
Aaron
I think it's too soon to tell.
00;19;20;17 - 00;19;43;05
Chris
It is. It is my final node on this. I swear to God, this is it. I created a brand that retired me at age 41. I don't have the same feelings I have for like the brand I helped create and brought into the world. I don't have like the same sort of strong feelings that people on our timeline do about, you know, base product releases.
00;19;43;05 - 00;19;46;28
Chris
It's utterly perplexing. So maybe I'm just dead inside. Maybe that's it.
00;19;47;02 - 00;20;04;14
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, or, you know, I think you just kind of have seen how brands grow and develop and how challenging it is to build a brand. Right. And and like how all these things matter and, you know, and, you know, I do think for you, you're kind of right that a lot of companies that start in the Bay area, they kind of have a certain veneer to them.
00;20;04;14 - 00;20;27;12
Aaron
You know, some of that's good. But, you know, we see a lot of people pushing back on that. Right? Just in culture at this point, whether it's like railing against the quote unquote tech oligarchs or advocating for more regulation, or I do think that there's like a push back that that it has been happening around that. And maybe that's the challenge and call for Coinbase to kind of evolve, whatever that that kind of tone and feel is as they kind of bring some of this stuff to the masses.
00;20;27;13 - 00;20;49;21
Pri
I think also we could probably it could be a larger discussion just thinking about, like, you know, your company and where companies are today. I do feel like company CEOs are becoming more like, I mean, it's a little bit of an extreme analogy, but it's like almost like God and their disciples, like, I feel like there's like some religiosity to like corporate America to some extent for some corporations.
00;20;49;27 - 00;21;06;16
Pri
I don't know if Coinbase is seeking it, but like, it's just more like a cult, like, you know, obsession. You feel it with whatever traders on on Twitter who own a little bit of Tesla or something like that, especially in tech, just because I feel like people are way more digitally native, but like, I don't know if that has anything to do with it either.
00;21;06;16 - 00;21;10;13
Pri
Chris is just like, you know, digital or do you think that's coming?
00;21;10;15 - 00;21;20;28
Aaron
That's a great point. Do you think that's coming to an end a little bit? I feel like with all the pushback, like Elon and some of these other, you know, like big tech personalities have been having, do you think that that shifts at some point a little bit?
00;21;21;00 - 00;21;47;05
Pri
I actually just think it gets bigger. Like I think corporations and corporations are the no new religion. But I just think like you're going to probably find that people use a lot of their identity. I mean, they really do. You see it with younger generations, like they'll take a corporation. It's like becomes part of their identity. I feel like the, you know, we could talk about this, but even that like hot girl up like this idea of, like, you have limited followers, like under 5000 and you just get an app and get free movies.
00;21;47;05 - 00;22;14;25
Pri
Like, a lot of people are already kind of blending their personality with specific brands and corporations, and brands on the other side are spending a ton of time on world building and creating. Every brand is now a lifestyle brand and that's their aims, this blend of lifestyle. I mean, this is all going back to like Toby Sean's essay, but like, I do think that, you know, corporation as religion or, you know, lifestyle is just where things are further going.
00;22;14;26 - 00;22;37;10
Chris
Yeah, it's I thought there was a time where we were past the myth, the myth of the founder, you know, and that we we could move on. We're not. And I do think, yeah, it is part of this, you know, neoliberal creep, the financialization of everything that, you know, your job in this country is to express yourself through consumption.
00;22;37;10 - 00;23;15;03
Chris
Your job is not to express yourself through politics, through, you know, stands around justice. It's not your job to root for people. It's your job to consume. And it's a very, you know, sad and disturbing state of affairs where if that's something that bothers you, you know, you have to either confront the helplessness of, like, your ability to have any impact on that and that can, you know, get you down or, you know, you have to turn your life and your interests elsewhere and just kind of accept the fact that you're going to stand outside mainstream culture and that people might look at you quizzically.
00;23;15;03 - 00;23;41;05
Chris
You know, it is a tricky one, I will say, because in there you touched on another thing that, like, drives me crazy, that I might be like the only person on earth who can see. But the idea that homes.com has a commercial cinematic universe, that all of these Liberty Mutual, has a commercial cinematic universe that, like our advertisements now, are moving into world building and extending themselves outwards.
00;23;41;05 - 00;23;48;14
Chris
In that way, it is like something that is just like, oh my God, this is so wrong. And I don't know if people can see this.
00;23;48;16 - 00;24;07;29
Pri
I know it just I mean, that's kind of every brand's goal now is just like you almost have to, like look creep into everything to even like cut through the noise because it's so hard to get attention. It's like, you, you like as a brand are left no choice. It's funny, I was, I was reading something like yesterday just about how like, Gen Z and Gen Alpha want more IRL experience.
00;24;07;29 - 00;24;26;14
Pri
So like now Netflix, Paramount, like A24, Lionsgate, all of them are like buying these old theaters and they're like, I think, like, I just saw a 24 about like an Off-Broadway theater in New York, and they're going to do things. They're like, I just think it's it's just interesting to like, see, even the world Bank building is going to extend beyond, like digital media.
00;24;26;14 - 00;24;45;03
Pri
It's like they're even trying to do it in person. It's it's the same thing, like how every flagship fashion brand store in New York now is basically either a bar or coffee shop as well. I don't know if you guys saw that, like new department store in downtown New York called Printemps. It's like this French department store. I went like a couple months ago, a couple weeks after it opened.
00;24;45;03 - 00;25;05;21
Pri
And it's literally just like, like six restaurants in a massive department store that's like Instagrammable. It's beautiful. Clearly they put a lot of money into it. But like commerce is blending with food is blending with, you know, basically like where you want to hang out your third space in person as well. So I mean, it's it's like kind of a, a windy road from Coinbase where we're getting to.
00;25;05;21 - 00;25;12;25
Pri
But I'm not like surprised that people are adding some like religious, you know, brand world building around Coinbase.
00;25;12;25 - 00;25;31;18
Aaron
Yeah I think they've done that. But you know, the reason I was asking if that's like over, I do think you're seeing a shift just in the tone towards some of these larger, you know, U.S tech companies. And I wonder if I don't think that's going away. I think that's going to magnify, especially like an elite pockets over the next couple, you know, years.
00;25;31;18 - 00;25;50;25
Aaron
And I do wonder if there's like a shift away from that over time. And then I think when you layer on top, like the media landscape is just beginning to start to change. Just because of all these new AI tools. Okay. I do wonder if it it starts to morph a little bit more and not to like highlight something, but almost like that grok like waifu character release.
00;25;50;25 - 00;26;08;20
Aaron
Like I do wonder if there is like something to that, right? It's another way to build brand and brand interaction, but it's kind of more of like, interacting, like with Disney, right? When you interact with Disney back in the day, I don't think people are thinking of Walt Disney, right? They were thinking of this character, Mickey Mouse, right, that everybody kind of knew.
00;26;08;23 - 00;26;22;06
Aaron
And that's really what built the brand. And I wonder if Elon, you know, to his credit, is kind of seeing that and kind of pushing into another direction where he could build a brand around, let's say, like a character set of characters, a little bit like some of the earlier media giants did.
00;26;22;06 - 00;26;23;17
Pri
Everything is unattainable.
00;26;23;20 - 00;26;48;04
Chris
I cannot wait until Mecha Diablo two guy. Yeah. Becomes what happened to my cute girl with big boobs. It now is this fun of saying that, telling me to go out and, you know, like, yeah, it's it's, it's a mixed up, topsy turvy world. But we and our independent podcast, with our couple hundred weekly listeners are free to rage and rebellion.
00;26;48;05 - 00;27;07;05
Chris
Question, question. These things. We are a tiny little hamlet, an outpost on the digital frontier, trying not to conform, trying not to be for everyone. Or maybe, you know, one day we'll get big and we will be for everyone. And we'll, we'll be talking about how amazing it is that we can coin this episode on Zora.
00;27;07;08 - 00;27;30;15
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, you know, Chris. And to me, I always I just like I hear you on all that and I think all these experiments are they haven't landed fully yet, but I, like I always root back when I process this, you know, even though I do see and agree in part with, you know, some of the cringe year parts of, of of marketing, I just feel like marketing is, is super difficult and the tone is super difficult to kind of nail.
00;27;30;17 - 00;27;40;15
Aaron
It's really hard if you're at the core like a technologist too, because it's just a different skill set, like we know people that are really great at marketing. Oftentimes they're not developers and vice versa.
00;27;40;17 - 00;27;45;18
Chris
I am now all of the above. Yeah. How dare you say these things? Well, not every.
00;27;45;20 - 00;27;50;23
Aaron
Not everybody's mecha. Chris. Right. That can do all these things and be that, you know, wunderkind I don't know.
00;27;50;23 - 00;28;10;19
Chris
I will say so much of this world is like it's good fortune. It's finding yourself with the right people. Yeah. Ryan Reynolds, God bless his heart, is one of the greatest marketers of our day and age. And he still shows up every day. It looks like a dork on a green screen and tells you we're going to run our first commercial on, that society here again.
00;28;10;21 - 00;28;30;13
Chris
Did you know you can get Mint Mobile for only $15 a month? Did you know that I created the brand and that Ryan Reynolds basically took one of my jobs? And I'm so thankful for him because now I'm retired and I can blah, blah, blah on this podcast. So buy Mint Mobile and soon we'll tell you your entire social network should be on Mint Mobile.
00;28;30;16 - 00;28;31;04
Chris
Yeah.
00;28;31;06 - 00;28;39;06
Aaron
But I do think like on the the tokenizing like media, I, I don't think the form factor is fully there yet, but it's one of those things I feel like it's going to take like.
00;28;39;07 - 00;28;40;08
Pri
Definitely getting them.
00;28;40;14 - 00;28;56;20
Aaron
Like 2030, you know, some permutations, like just some twisting of the knobs and then somebody's going to just land it and then it's going to get kind of really big, I don't know, I so I always kind of appreciate the experimentation even though and I always like pay attention when, when folks are kind of making a big move on that.
00;28;56;20 - 00;29;21;05
Aaron
And I know that there's been like some false starts or like maybe some like over eagerness. I mean, the last year has been pretty tricky. If you're like a well intentioned entrepreneur with digital asset digital assets. Right. Like it got it got, pretty tread, pretty treacherous, right? Like there was not as much activity. There was a lot of air and volume of attention going towards things like meme coins and other bits.
00;29;21;05 - 00;29;24;29
Aaron
It's hard to kind of like steer the ship in that fog, right?
00;29;25;01 - 00;29;28;04
Chris
No it's not. No, no, I'm not going to give you this one.
00;29;28;07 - 00;29;29;18
Aaron
Damn it. Why not?
00;29;29;18 - 00;29;30;18
Pri
Chris I don't know. I don't know.
00;29;30;22 - 00;29;39;06
Chris
Because I have I have very strong opinions around tokenized media. You've heard them. You heard them back in 22. And that was like a big Hollywood.
00;29;39;06 - 00;29;40;07
Aaron
Deal with all that.
00;29;40;10 - 00;30;04;05
Chris
The problem with tokenized media right now is they're putting the cart before the horse. There's two properties you could have around tokenized media. You can make it programmatic and you can make it financialized. And what they're trying to do is lead with the financialization. They're trying not to show any actual inherent value for media being tokenized, other than its failure to speculate.
00;30;04;05 - 00;30;32;14
Chris
And the real opportunity space here is using tokenized media in programmatic fashions so that media has more interactivity. You know, it could replace that evil ad tracking complex that exists out there that, you know, you could use programmatic media as a distribution flywheel, that you could use it as a way to recombine things. You could use it as a way to have ongoing relationships with media.
00;30;32;14 - 00;31;01;04
Chris
And all the innovation is you can coin everything and basis for everyone. And let's coin a stupid hipster Bushwick zine, you know, style like collage with, you know, old Netscape, AOL esthetics and, you know, some breezy zoomer vibe thing. And let's put that on a decks and let's get, you know, some suckers to buy it, and then it will be worth nothing.
00;31;01;04 - 00;31;16;06
Chris
Like that's the approach people are taking right now. It's dead wrong. It's a lack of patience. It's a lack of respect for the users. It's a failure of imagination or to actually push design patterns for short term greed in the interest of the platform. Yeah, I think.
00;31;16;06 - 00;31;34;25
Aaron
It's I think that's maybe the better way to describe it. I was trying to do Chris like you always do. You're super awful with it. I think it's a lot of folks that were well intentioned builders, like they they did have like a lack of patience, like they were trying to kind of manifest something when, you know, it's hard to do that kind of in a vacuum.
00;31;34;25 - 00;31;55;19
Aaron
Right. Like you were talking before, a lot of projects, success, etc. it's not just your the sweaty, your brow. Right. And it's also just timing. And you know, the the state of the market in crypto is just a lot of hard core believers and then a lot of just speculative traders. So it became a pretty treacherous market to, I guess, build and service for.
00;31;55;26 - 00;32;10;16
Aaron
I do wonder if, like those same entrepreneurs like were dropped in in five years, when there's more digital asset users in the market, it's like a little bit more regulated and then less treacherous if maybe some of the decisions would have been different there. Like my sense is they probably would have been.
00;32;10;17 - 00;32;33;19
Chris
Yeah, they probably would have been. That does it mean, you know, it's unfair to cast judgment on people? You know, we live in a world of free will. We live in a world of choices. The network is, in fact, permissionless, and so little time will tell whether, you know, we get to a point where we can have like, more versatile, more, less speculative outlets.
00;32;33;19 - 00;32;53;09
Chris
You know, for tokenized media. I think it's it's pretty clear that there is not product fit for speculative tokenized media. And the people who continue to insist upon this, they're not going to get very far with it. I will eat my shorts on that society in a year if content coins actually take off. Yeah, I.
00;32;53;09 - 00;33;10;00
Aaron
Don't I don't know if content queens will, you know, print out. We're actually just separately talking about this yesterday. Like if you think like this is and there's a big question like, is this the middle of a cycle? Is this the beginning of the cycle? Is this like a mean reversion? There's a tricky questions. I don't think anybody fully knows the answer to me.
00;33;10;00 - 00;33;27;03
Aaron
It starts to feel it's starting to feel more like the beginning of a cycle. And if that's the case, then you know you're going to see it being driven by like all this off chain activity. It should bring back some entrepreneurs. And I do think like in five years, 4 to 5 years, we'll see some of these projects.
00;33;27;08 - 00;33;45;27
Aaron
And it may not be content coins, Chris, like you're suggesting, just like manifest. So we should see some activity related to it. It's kind of like, you know, just because we've used this analogy in the past, like if crypto is tracking the internet, you know, the last downturn was the big, you know, kind of.com bust that we just went through.
00;33;46;01 - 00;33;56;10
Aaron
We're now kind of like three years out from that. That would be the equivalent in internet development to like 2002, 2003 or 2003. Really. Like we didn't really, but.
00;33;56;10 - 00;33;59;22
Chris
A little later than that, 2004. It's kind of when the tide turned.
00;33;59;22 - 00;34;10;12
Aaron
Yeah. So like but maybe this maybe we're heading into like 2004. Right? Right now. But we didn't see like really good consumer products emerge till like five, six, seven. Like I don't.
00;34;10;13 - 00;34;16;18
Chris
Remember. We, we were on on our way to Valhalla and then we had the global financial crisis.
00;34;16;24 - 00;34;35;26
Aaron
Right. Yeah. But the first ones that that emerged, right were like five, six, seven. I think that's when like Facebook, YouTube and Spotify made it started. And like, I don't know what you'd consider like the best web2 consumer products, but they probably would include some of them there. I don't know, like maybe, maybe it is like two, three years out, maybe we what we will see some something.
00;34;35;26 - 00;34;51;24
Aaron
And I feel like a lot of those products like they they don't want to operate at high cost. Now the infrastructure can support lower, lower costs. They're just kind of missing users. Maybe with a less wild West, more regulated, more institutionally backed ecosystem. Like there's an opportunity for that. Now.
00;34;52;00 - 00;35;09;11
Pri
Maybe I also have a hard time like I think like I think there's two things. Like one consumer group doesn't really feel fully here because the audience isn't here and maybe like the audience would drive like a better experience. But also to Chris's point, like I don't know if like the current consumer crypto platforms are fully taking in the audience's point of view.
00;35;09;11 - 00;35;38;00
Pri
And so maybe it's just like this, like weird jargon that I think I do have, like a hard time not thinking like as stablecoins become and every single person in the planet, on the planet, in the US, like beyond probably on every in every wallet of every human being that like consumer crypto doesn't just take off. And it might become like just more one two WI founders coming in and just layering on like a stablecoin or some sort of like tokenized action to their platform.
00;35;38;00 - 00;35;49;23
Pri
It's kind of like what Robinhood feels like it's doing now, like it just was kind of the social stock buying up. And now you can like now they're going to build up their own blockchain. Like maybe it looks more like that, I don't.
00;35;49;23 - 00;36;30;22
Chris
Know, as long as I can book a ticket on Robinhood Blockchain for me, Robinhood Cruises so I can see Robinhood the band and live a full immersive Robinhood lifestyle. I mean, that's the goal for me. I think consumer crypto Kim both win and still lose. And what I mean by that is whatever we're calling consumer crypto today, whatever the aspirations of that movement are, I think maybe none of them will actually get enough rope to see their dreams come true, but that another wave will come in and it will be that wave of, a co-opt of, you know, existing distribution and footprint.
00;36;30;22 - 00;37;08;14
Chris
Just moving into the terrain of, Spain's stablecoins and, you know, just taking the infrastructure. And, you know, brands are incredibly plastic. Capitalism is incredibly good at absorbing threats and rivals and making them strengths for themselves. So I think that that is one where, you know, when we're doing that society in 2035 and we can look back on these sort of things, I am going to be really curious to see what ever became of consumer crypto, because I, I don't have a great, I don't have a bet.
00;37;08;16 - 00;37;12;26
Chris
Right. I think this is a very wide open and interesting terrain to see unfold.
00;37;12;28 - 00;37;29;02
Aaron
Yeah. I'm, I'm like actually super excited about that. This area, this area. I think I kind of see the same thing Chris like I don't I, I hope many of the great projects that are out there that are exploring this space, like figure it out and kind of make it through, but could easily, could easily see the just market timing not being right for it.
00;37;29;02 - 00;37;45;06
Aaron
But I don't know, I think I think people are going to keep on pressing on this button. My sense is it's going to be a little bit like what we saw in other ecosystems, like whether that's, you know, early world building games, right, that were some projects kind of went heavily into like gamification. And then they kind of doubt that back.
00;37;45;06 - 00;38;05;20
Aaron
Right. Or even like collectibles were the same thing kind of happened in that ecosystem. Right. If you're a child of the 90s cousins. Right. Baseball cards, Beanie Babies, like there was too much supply, but a lot of that stuff is still going and has gotten significantly bigger than it was back then. And in part, it was just because they dial down on some of these, like speculative like supply issues.
00;38;05;20 - 00;38;23;06
Aaron
Right? They became more measured in like their gamification approaches. Like, I could see a couple things that that kind of happened there where people are a little less aggressive and they actually make it a lot further kind of going forward, whether that's like NFTs or tokenized art coins or, you know, meme coin slash media interactions, like all that stuff.
00;38;23;06 - 00;38;29;02
Aaron
I could just I could see, like, actually like dialing it back a little bit and you'll take like a couple steps forward.
00;38;29;05 - 00;38;30;27
Chris
Yeah. It's very possible.
00;38;31;00 - 00;38;44;14
Aaron
I'm worried, like you are, that the financialization of media like I something about that just I don't think I think like at least folks in the States, they're going to reject that in some way. It's like too much, right. Like so they'll they'll naturally be a pushback to it.
00;38;44;15 - 00;39;19;20
Chris
I don't think we can really hope for a pushback until AI threatens people's livelihoods to the point that it read, tells them about just how far and wide neoliberalism has gone and what it's taken from us. And so, you know, that's a really tough position to root for, because I certainly don't want to see a future in which, you know, people need to have like that, sort of like personal traumatic event in their life to stop being ignorant and educate themselves and understand just how slow and silent the creep is then.
00;39;19;20 - 00;39;24;29
Chris
And so I'm gonna choose to see the good in the world here and be like, do I'm going to root for let's go.
00;39;25;04 - 00;39;43;29
Pri
I feel like we're like at a turning point, but I don't. I think there was a neo la la neo liberalism could evolve and it could become like hyper capitalistic to the point of maybe people rejected. And, you know, that's when it evolves because it just gets so financialized that people can't take it anymore. And then we get to something else.
00;39;43;29 - 00;40;09;05
Pri
But I do feel like we're probably closer to that. Then further to that end point. And maybe crypto kind of help accelerates that. But like I was, I saw this meme and it was like, there's only the only job left in the future. Like venture capitalist vibe code or data labeler and meme coin trader like, there's also an alternative where I just basically turns everyone into a gambler slash data like, you know, data labeler.
00;40;09;12 - 00;40;09;29
Aaron
I mean, that's what.
00;40;10;03 - 00;40;10;18
Pri
Something.
00;40;10;25 - 00;40;32;15
Aaron
That's what Nick Bostrom has argued. I don't think he said it as sharply. I don't think he knew necessarily enough about the crypto ecosystem, but that's kind of what he was pointing at. I think there's elements of that. But I just think it's you just you already hear the pushback on the the gaming gambling side, right? A lot of the like excesses of the first two waves, the internet, whether it's like too much adult entertainment or gaming.
00;40;32;15 - 00;40;42;10
Aaron
Right. There are there's pushback that's happening. It's just happening at the lower levels. And I could see that kind of bubbling through. I don't know, I do think we're at a turning point, though, progress.
00;40;42;13 - 00;40;48;19
Pri
And we need like a global global conflict in order to get that. And I can't tell if it's China and we're invading Taiwan.
00;40;48;19 - 00;41;01;02
Chris
Oh no, no, no, not doing this like some some of us have, 13 year old boys as sons. Yeah. Who don't need to even entertain, entertain these notions.
00;41;01;04 - 00;41;14;11
Pri
I don't I'm not saying I definitely don't want that, but, like, I'm just I'm just saying I feel like that. Doesn't it feel like all the flash points that are happening and like the different, like, things that are just occurring around the world, again, not like give you some.
00;41;14;13 - 00;41;34;17
Aaron
I think I think to to your point and Chris's point pre like we had an era and like an ideology that was this, you know neoliberalism. Right. And I do think that that ended and it probably ended like in you know 15 years ago. But the the new consensus of what it should be after that has not really formed fully.
00;41;34;24 - 00;41;59;29
Aaron
And I think and then I think at the same time, you have another system in China that didn't abide by, you know, that order. And there's probably some lessons around that too. I think whether it's China or even like South Korea, right, or Japan in terms of industrialization and having like state capacity to do things like there's good lessons in that that I think need to get digested and reinterpreted in part to kind of work better in the West.
00;41;59;29 - 00;42;20;01
Aaron
So, you know, we've seen similar institutions not work as well as they did, or at least we heard that they did, you know, in the 1930s and 40s or 20s. Right. And at the same time, you know, I think we keep on marching towards like the original vision of the US, which is just a place where everybody, regardless of their background, can kind of succeed.
00;42;20;02 - 00;42;20;29
Pri
That's true.
00;42;21;01 - 00;42;24;28
Chris
And I think we're not we're not that country are. And right now we're certainly not that country.
00;42;25;01 - 00;42;37;23
Aaron
Yeah, I think we're not. But I think, you know, when push comes to shove, I think that, you know, after all other it's a little bit like what happened with crypto regulation after all other approaches have been exhausted. I feel like, well, we'll get back to our knitting.
00;42;37;25 - 00;42;45;26
Pri
Yeah, I guess I was trying to get it. I guess I'm just to like World War one, pre-World War one pilled like turn of the century industrial Revolution.
00;42;45;26 - 00;42;50;01
Chris
I think you're still in the Balkans. Three. You're still in the words.
00;42;50;03 - 00;43;07;11
Pri
I'm still the Habsburg, is still the fall, the Ottoman loom. Still with the Bolsheviks. Like I feel like I just feel like I'm. We're repeating history there. But maybe I should move on from that. It's kind of crazy, like everything, if you think about it, that turn of the century meaning the industrial revolution, like, well, we're one was obviously a fact of that.
00;43;07;11 - 00;43;23;27
Pri
World War two was an effect of World War One. And then like basically neoliberalism, the current economic order, all is like a result of that major shift in the 1900s. Yes. Like, like, but that's that was a very important time. Anyways, we don't need to go on here. I'm just I'm still.
00;43;23;27 - 00;43;52;17
Chris
Thinking, well, yeah, there's there's a lot in that because nationalism didn't really exist in the form. We know it right until the Industrial Revolution. And in some ways we could really circle this back around to the opening, this conversation. And, and, you know, ask is nationalism at its endpoint? And, corporatism is actually what's going to follow that you will not have the feelings you have for America.
00;43;52;20 - 00;44;11;27
Chris
Like those feelings will not be on par with your feelings for Coinbase. It wouldn't be insane to think that in 25, 50 years you know that like people's allegiance, affiliations, emotions, a sense of identity to to the corporate level or not, a state level, you could really swap one out for the other.
00;44;12;00 - 00;44;27;02
Pri
That's I mean, that's kind of where I feel like the network state stuff is kind of interesting to me as well. I think that there is like this difference between sovereignty and capitalism, which is slow, like most capitalists don't necessarily even care. I actually don't know. I don't speak for every capitalist, but like, you know, I'm a capitalist too.
00;44;27;02 - 00;44;48;07
Pri
I don't, but I don't necessarily feel this way. I'm just thinking I feel like a lot of the hard core ones will separate them from sovereignty, as opposed to like some sort of like national, you know, view on growth. I'm making this up in my head, but I'm not really articulating this well. My larger point is, though, I think I agree with you, Chris, and that's where I find the network state stuff a little bit interesting.
00;44;48;12 - 00;44;58;25
Pri
There's nothing really there except for, I think, a lot of the wealth and capital is it becomes more valuable, might move into that. But I've talked about that a million times on this podcast.
00;44;58;25 - 00;45;02;11
Chris
But yeah, but you're not I mean, sorry to cut you off there.
00;45;02;12 - 00;45;03;12
Pri
No it's a yeah.
00;45;03;12 - 00;45;26;02
Chris
Another way to frame this is libertarians. Anarcho capitalists have a very strong sense of personal sovereignty and generally how they want to express that sovereignty is through unfettered capitalist activities. So you're not wrong to like I think that's kind of where maybe you are going. I don't want to like put words in your mouth, but that's where my head wound at least.
00;45;26;04 - 00;45;49;27
Pri
Yeah, I actually, I think I'm still I read this book, Crack Up Capitalism and I've been, you know, they pull a different a lot of different examples or the author pulls a lot of different examples like they've been, you know, a chapter on like Liechtenstein, they have a chapter in Singapore, Dubai and these different approaches that have been taken in order to like, upend capitalism from sovereignty a little bit and like give more personal autonomy, which I think is interesting.
00;45;50;00 - 00;45;56;20
Pri
Definitely. You know, an interesting read, but makes me think that the network state feels like a natural evolution to that.
00;45;56;20 - 00;46;06;06
Aaron
I don't know if it's a full evolution or, you know, it just I think people are clamoring for almost like a a fresh place to try out some new ideas. Right?
00;46;06;13 - 00;46;07;05
Pri
That's true.
00;46;07;07 - 00;46;35;15
Aaron
I don't think even in major cities like whether it's in the US or Europe or other parts of the planet, like they're just big honking, you know, Titanic like organizations that are hard to change. And there's a lot of competing incentives. And I do think that when people had the flexibility to kind of start afresh, whether that was, you know, new states in the US or, or new countries after like World War One that were kind of formed, you know, in the ashes of a lot of pain.
00;46;35;15 - 00;46;51;00
Aaron
But people got a chance to at least experiment with different things. I think that's harder and harder to kind of do. It's like harder to kind of start fresh in today's world, right? Given the digital landscape. Right. And like, it's hard to kind of, you know, walk away or walk back a comment you made in the past or a photo that was taken.
00;46;51;00 - 00;47;10;00
Aaron
There's a like a lack of freedom that kind of comes with that. And I feel like a lot of the network state stuff is an attempt to to kind of bring that back because, you know, if we know or have like some recognition or understanding that our institutions are not working the way that that we want them to, you know, you do kind of need a little laboratories to play around with that.
00;47;10;02 - 00;47;10;13
Pri
Yeah.
00;47;10;16 - 00;47;27;09
Aaron
Like even in the US, right. Like we have, you know, ideally like 50 laboratories to do that. But there's still like really big, right. You know, the smallest state economy in the states is still a really, really big organization institution. A lot of people a lot of moving pieces, a lot of history. Right, that we all have to kind of grapple with.
00;47;27;09 - 00;47;43;05
Aaron
So, I don't know, I mean, I think it's interesting at the same time, I it's almost like also like a cop out, right? Like a lot of that activity and energy should be spent to reform institutions and wherever people are located instead of just like opting out of it. But it definitely is like an interesting and interesting.
00;47;43;07 - 00;47;50;21
Pri
Yeah, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon. It just feels like it can maybe ten, 15, 20 years down the line and see more activity there.
00;47;50;26 - 00;48;16;00
Chris
Yeah, we we we have to pick our spots, you know, like and we live across multiple worlds like we sure we exist as you know, a biological entity in a base reality. But we experience so many things and those experiences stretch the full gamut. I think, you know, like in my personal experience, I'm two years into trying to get approval to put Hvac on my house.
00;48;16;01 - 00;48;43;28
Chris
Right? Because, you know, I live in a historical district and I have to go through a landmarks process, and that's the most tedious thing on Earth, and I won't bore anyone with it. But, you know, two years, to put, you know, just wall mounted air conditioners instead of, sticking them in my window at the same time, I spent a lot of my time out in the digital frontier, you know, interacting with people and building things that have never been attempted before, in which, you know, we don't even know the shape of them yet.
00;48;43;28 - 00;49;00;16
Chris
And because of that newness, it is completely freed from any form of, like, jurisdictional lie. And so, you know, like I would say, like in my own experience, right? I experienced those two extreme poles. And that's just part of my everyday existence.
00;49;00;17 - 00;49;04;27
Pri
I actually Facebook did a good job of, describing that, by the way.
00;49;04;28 - 00;49;06;21
Chris
Thank you. Have you finished it?
00;49;06;24 - 00;49;08;29
Pri
I am like literally 50 pages.
00;49;09;02 - 00;49;13;20
Chris
Excellent. I cannot wait to hear what you have to say about it when you're done.
00;49;13;23 - 00;49;14;05
Pri
Okay.
00;49;14;11 - 00;49;22;13
Chris
But yes, that is one one of those things that there's a lot going on in that book, but that is that is one of those things. I'm glad you, teased it out.
00;49;22;14 - 00;49;42;24
Aaron
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, that's I think, as you know, the, you know, neon kind of like populist nationalist parties are like, you know, evaluating why they're losing some support. It feels like, Chris, which are hammering on or just or flagging is just something that people are increasingly focused on. I don't know how you fully solve that, though.
00;49;42;26 - 00;50;00;03
Aaron
That seems like a tricky problem. And it is like kind of interesting to see parts of like the progressive left, like start calling for a deregulation. The last time that kind of happened was really like the, the height of the neoliberal neocon power. Right? It was like Clinton and Clinton and and its progeny. I wonder if that comes back in part.
00;50;00;08 - 00;50;24;18
Chris
It's interesting I didn't oh, I wasn't aware that the progressive left or some voices within it and started reaching out there, but I generally try not to pay attention to that world, because I do find a lot of progressivism, whether well-intentioned or not, is woefully, woefully behind the times and what they speak towards in terms of practical implementations or solutions to problems.
00;50;24;18 - 00;50;44;11
Chris
We face today are actually too little, too late. And, you know, more regulation, more telling people what they have to do or, you know, like it's it just doesn't it doesn't feel relevant today. And so, you know, it would be nice, to see.
00;50;44;13 - 00;50;44;28
Aaron
Yeah, I mean.
00;50;45;05 - 00;50;47;29
Chris
More modern thinking and mainstream political thought. Yeah.
00;50;47;29 - 00;51;11;22
Aaron
I think that's this is like the whole abundance like economy agenda or at least a sub thread of it. It's really like expanding state capacity to do stuff, which in part means, you know, deregulating some of these procedural points that just slow things down. Right. And I think a lot of urban centers, whether it's around building new houses, making changes to different things, like laying down new pipelines, and they don't even need to be like oil and gas pipelines.
00;51;11;22 - 00;51;30;18
Aaron
Right? It could be just to connect to like green energy, right? Or the broadband, you know, the broadband rollout in the states, which was authorized. Right, but has taken years to kind of get through various red tape like I think the move to like make at least like the urban parts of the US and probably in Europe to a little less Byzantine.
00;51;30;18 - 00;51;48;10
Aaron
It seems like that's a foot which isn't. Which definitely is encouraging. Right. It's like, how do you. Yeah. And I don't even blame them for like, you know, blame the progressives for like pushing back on, you know, some of the like the like well settled doctrine of like economists. Right. Like I think we're learning that maybe they're not right about everything.
00;51;48;10 - 00;52;05;03
Aaron
Or there was assumptions that weren't fully baked in or, you know, downsides to analyzes that weren't fully taken into account. So, you know, I do think it's kind of good to see people on whatever your political persuasion is, just like pushing back on on some of these like, well, well established dogmatic points.
00;52;05;03 - 00;52;40;19
Chris
Yeah. The right point to push on here is on capture, right. Let's it regardless of political orientation and coverage capture, industry capture. You know, there is an enormous, well-funded, you know, set of actors in this country, okay, like corporations and the people who own them, who this status quo works perfectly fine for them. The fact that people will not get medical care, the fact that people will go hungry, the fact that, you know, living in your car is becoming a more and more popular lifestyle.
00;52;40;19 - 00;53;05;12
Chris
Like there is no incentives for people who are making money today to want to change the system. And like, you know, just on a basic human level, wanting to push back against that degree of capture and allowing people to be free, allowing people to be able to, you know, prosper and to make a life and to have aspirations beyond survival.
00;53;05;12 - 00;53;36;10
Chris
I mean, that is a basic human right. And that's something we should, you know, all be rooting for. And so, yeah, like, if we can just get past the fact that acting in ignorance about certain issues, you know, acting to, you know, keep things just as they are because they work for the few, you know, like that. That's an admirable, admirable goal that really, you know, should standard cross ideology, Jesus should exist a, you know, a more, a more base level of just like rooting for the living, you know, rooting for our fellow person.
00;53;36;12 - 00;53;58;16
Aaron
You know, completely. And I just I do think we're all kind of still grappling with just the challenges of technology, you know, just being able to have magnified, like any minor issue or, you know, people that feel aggrieved, like banding together to flag those issues. That's all important. But I do think I do think that that kind of that element was discounted a little bit, you know, in its impact and is important.
00;53;58;16 - 00;54;19;03
Aaron
Right. But I feel like we're kind of adjusting to that. And all of these platforms are just getting so exhausting that they're decaying a little bit. So maybe that opens up like the path for like a new consensus. So I don't know. I'm like pretty optimistic. It's kind of the same thing. I feel like we're watching the sausage being made in so many different ways now, just because of technology, that it's kind of gruesome.
00;54;19;08 - 00;54;25;07
Aaron
But if you kind of take a step up, it feels like things are hopefully coming back together in like a more positive way.
00;54;25;09 - 00;54;42;29
Pri
Yeah. And you guys were like, so in the weeds on this stuff, like most people like aren't even using AI. Like it's just it's like like I think like we like get like really in our heads because we're like so in, you know, digital online, deep culture. But just like this is going to there's going to be so many permutations of all like that.
00;54;42;29 - 00;54;49;12
Pri
They're going to start that. It's just we're like completely speculating and maybe assuming the worst, but it could actually be totally fine.
00;54;49;15 - 00;54;50;16
Chris
Wag me pre.
00;54;50;18 - 00;54;52;11
Pri
Wag just I mean I.
00;54;52;11 - 00;55;13;04
Aaron
Kind of feel like wag me is is kind of right. Like I do feel like that optimistic outlook. There's something to it. And I do think, you know, on balance, if we take like a lens of a couple hundred years or like a multi-decade lens, like it's all moving roughly in in the right direction, it doesn't mean that there's not like step backs or like challenges or, or other things.
00;55;13;04 - 00;55;21;13
Aaron
But I don't know, I, I'm not buying this thesis that there's going to be like a, like some dramatic world calamity. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe right.
00;55;21;15 - 00;55;38;21
Chris
I hear. Yeah. And I was at a 4th of July barbecue or, you know, you just you start talking to random people and all of a sudden you're in this, like, ridiculous conversation. And I just don't remember, like, you know, saying, yeah, well, we've only been around 250,000 years, you know, wait until like, we've been around another 250,000 or more.
00;55;38;21 - 00;55;57;02
Chris
And this person just stopped me stone cold in my tracks and was like, we're not making a 250,000 year. We're lucky if we're going to make it out of the century. It was just like, oh my God, I guess I am a wild eyed optimist. And yeah, how do these sort of people exist that, you know, want to live in this world of impending doom?
00;55;57;02 - 00;55;59;21
Chris
I mean, we're not going to get anywhere with that sort of attitude.
00;55;59;21 - 00;56;17;07
Aaron
I don't think they want to. I think it's just it's it's that peace, right? Like you had so many people living, you know, and this is not in a mean way, just like a fairly parochial life. Right? Like it was their community. It's what they read on the paper. It's what they watched on the the morning, you know, news or the evening news.
00;56;17;07 - 00;56;21;05
Aaron
It was kind of narrow and constrained. And then you had this, this, you know.
00;56;21;05 - 00;56;22;28
Chris
Leveling up of information.
00;56;23;00 - 00;56;39;25
Aaron
Yeah. I was just trying to I was grasping for the right words. This like explosion of information where you see everything regardless of where you are on the planet. And I don't think it gets enough credence, you know, like citizen journalism, which was a huge trend right, in late. You know, 2008, 2009, the late nights. It's it's here.
00;56;39;25 - 00;56;58;28
Aaron
Right? Like, you know, you can real time watch global conflict, right? You're getting updates and pinged on your phone like, that's a lot. And that's a lot for anybody to kind of handle that. So it's not surprising that everybody just thinks it's all bad. Yeah I mean so many people. Right. Like we have so many people on the planet, so many different cultures and societies and histories.
00;56;58;28 - 00;57;00;27
Aaron
It's a lot. It's a lot to process.
00;57;01;01 - 00;57;30;10
Chris
Yeah. And we're constantly confronted with media that maybe puts us in in really strange places that both are hard to relate to, but also just hard to even, can, you know, make sense of like, I, you know, I'm thinking of like when, Iran and Israel or a lot of missiles that each other a whopping like couple of weeks ago there, there was this one clip of, a wedding in Lebanon, out in the backyard at night, everyone's dance and everyone's party and the missiles are going over.
00;57;30;10 - 00;58;02;27
Chris
It had their cheering, and it is like that little, you know, 32nd clip someone shot on their phone like it called into question and it placed you in such a weird juxtaposition. Like so many, you know, like global conflict, neighborly relations, like every, like, celebration, you know, like it it was like this massive stew of things. And it looked really vibey to like it really was one of those like, wow, this there was a lot going on in here and type of things.
00;58;02;28 - 00;58;16;18
Chris
And, you know, I only encounter that because like, you know, I'm turning petaflops on an AI and, you know, scrolling Twitter while I wait for it to come back, you know, like, that's, a real head scratcher. And we expose ourselves to that all the time.
00;58;16;18 - 00;58;34;18
Aaron
Yeah. And I think, you know, like, that is what I feel like. And maybe that's part of some of my optimism. I do think AI is much more inward facing than outward facing. I just find myself like, you know, spending more time with these systems and not wanting to reach out to get this, to stick my head in the information deluge.
00;58;34;18 - 00;58;49;22
Aaron
And like the weeks go by where that's the case or the months that go by, it just you go back into it and you're just like, like, I don't really want to spend more time here. And that's why I feel like there may be a shift where people do spend more time. They kind of find their knitting and a new consensus may emerge.
00;58;49;23 - 00;59;00;16
Aaron
So I don't know. I mean, honestly, even like if you I'm sure you guys saw, like, OpenAI's next attempt at agents and I haven't had a chance to play around with the parts of it looks super cool. I'm sure parts of it still need a ton of work.
00;59;00;16 - 00;59;01;17
Pri
It looks amazing.
00;59;01;17 - 00;59;27;05
Aaron
Yeah, but, like, just think about that. Like, if that if that works, like, you're not even going to be surfing the internet anymore, right? Like you're not even going to need to go to a certain sites, like it's all going to get intermediated by one of these systems. And like, you know, I'm sure we're going to see next couple quarters months, like doing the same thing to kind of manage information flow or get your news right or, you know, go to all my favorite sites and come back with like a summary of what I should be focused on, right?
00;59;27;05 - 00;59;42;00
Aaron
You know, hey, I want to understand what's happening in, you know, the progressive parts of New York City politics. And it can go out and like, search that for me. Right? I don't need to go to the sites. I don't need to see, like every tweet, retweet, you know, flame war on Twitter to kind of get that same information.
00;59;42;06 - 00;59;42;23
Aaron
I think that's good.
00;59;42;23 - 01;00;07;05
Chris
To know that there's that inward turn you're talking about. It's a really good point because I'm experiencing it as well. Right. Like my preference is to be activating centers of my brain that like, genuinely attract me and to learn new things and to make things and, you know, like doomscrolling, social media is more of an easy default position.
01;00;07;05 - 01;00;27;26
Chris
And so the longer I can keep myself busy, the less I'm going to spend over there. And that that amount of distance does allow you to, you know, break habits, rethink things like Google News has been terrible forever. Did that stop me from checking it 20 times a day? No, but I barely use Google News anymore, and that's a good thing.
01;00;27;29 - 01;00;33;27
Pri
I myself like reading the journal and times more than I used to, more than scrolling the journals.
01;00;33;27 - 01;00;36;23
Chris
The only thing I read regularly every day.
01;00;36;24 - 01;00;51;26
Pri
Yeah, like I feel like the journal is definitely better than times. But yeah, I find myself gravitating more tracks. It's just like easier to get information. I find myself, like, overwhelmed these days by like the Twitter algorithm. But I'm just like, okay, let me get the quick hits on, like what's happening on the Wall Street Journal.
01;00;52;03 - 01;01;12;26
Aaron
Yeah, I still got a bunch of different stuff. Not just but I like them. But to me that's like another aggregation here, right? But I think what we're going to see next is, like you, once you have these agents, you can begin to like let them loose to find information for you. Like if you have a question or a thought or you want to like, peer in a world like it's just going to become a command away, right?
01;01;12;26 - 01;01;35;26
Aaron
And then you get pinged back, when it's ready. And I think that those like that cycle is going to get tighter, it's going to get shorter, and you're going to like interact with the internet just through this, this more robust genetic layer, which just I think is just going to really just change the landscape. Even the fact that, like Google, you know, Google search traffic is purportedly way down for a whole bunch of publishers, like, that's going to really impact how they build their businesses, right?
01;01;35;27 - 01;01;45;01
Aaron
I just think content production is going to change, like once the core kind of substrate of how the internet worked, which was really like Google search changes, like a lot of other stuff, changes with it.
01;01;45;03 - 01;02;11;22
Chris
Yeah, it's it's funny, like because we can bring this back to consumer crypto in a way, right, where people were saying forever that curation was finally going to have its day. And what you're saying are and actually validates that opinion, except everyone who is out there saying curation is going to have its day. They were viewing it from a lens, there's going to be a curator class of tastemakers who are going to rise up in an importance.
01;02;11;22 - 01;02;24;09
Chris
And, you know, what you're pointing at is a complete disintermediation of them. And so it will be curious to see when consumer crypto finally has its say in one way, shape or form. It actually happens.
01;02;24;10 - 01;02;44;16
Aaron
Yeah. And I think, yeah. And maybe there's a little bit more I created like one not to give a shout out, but I love this service. It's called Deep News with a Z. But it aggregates Twitter feeds and makes like headlines. And I just find it like a really pleasant way to stay up to speed where I don't need to, like, go through, like the emotional pull and push of like a social media platform.
01;02;44;16 - 01;03;01;08
Aaron
But I get like kind of what I'm hoping for, which is just like able to stay up, like on the news. And it's not in like a stilted way that maybe, you know, a legacy platform may have, like the Journal or the times or, you know, pick your favorite, you know, more like legacy media brand. And so I kind of like that, but I can see that.
01;03;01;12 - 01;03;18;02
Aaron
I think that tech is super cool. I could just see that being like a feature, though, you know, for one of the large LMS, right, where you're just like, know like search the internet for me every day, like scheduled task. I like, you know, ping me on top headlines make it neutral. You know, make sure I'm not living in like an info bubble.
01;03;18;09 - 01;03;40;09
Aaron
And I think, like, more and more, you know, hardcore information junkies like I think the, the three of us are we'll start doing that. And once that happens, then you kind of just start to see the decay of, of like, you know, some of these other platforms, right? Like whatever that, like reporters and information junkies go like they kind of do in a weird way, control the the conversation.
01;03;40;09 - 01;03;48;13
Aaron
But I think they're they're going to be interacting a little less. And having these aggregated AI, maybe human aspect curation kind of sitting in the middle of it a bit more.
01;03;48;18 - 01;03;55;16
Chris
Yeah. Are you still over, doing whatever Substack, Twitter product is? Is that still holding your attention?
01;03;55;23 - 01;04;10;01
Pri
I check it once a week and kind of sort of testing it out for some of the trivial lab stuff. I was like into it for a couple weeks, but I do I do see good people post on there and I like we'll go through it occasionally. Just like not a habit formation yet.
01;04;10;05 - 01;04;39;17
Chris
Yeah. It's interesting. I think, I would be more willing to give it a chance because it does seem to have a higher level of signal, except there is such an inherent bias. And again, what I do for a living and how I spend my time. And so, you know, like, I don't want to be participating in a public space in which, you know, I constantly need to defend my opinions about AI, the fact that, like, I value storytelling over writing, where is like other people really place the emphasis on the act of writing.
01;04;39;21 - 01;05;02;22
Chris
You know, that's one of those things where like, I like I like the level of discourse, but I suspect the discourse would be hostile to me. Yeah, it's in a way like, why? Like I don't find forecast or appealing either, just in a slightly different you know, I well, I'd, I'd like to see forecaster succeed. I don't want to be a builder and I don't want to participate and build their culture on forecaster.
01;05;02;22 - 01;05;12;09
Chris
And until I outgrow that, right. Like a lot of the default conversation over there, like, is this, like not aligned with my own interests.
01;05;12;09 - 01;05;20;08
Pri
Yeah. Do you think that this is more just like you need maybe you just you have so many interests, which is why maybe Twitter is actually the good a good spot for you.
01;05;20;14 - 01;05;23;23
Chris
Oh. Twitter's terrible. Twitter's just a habit I can't break.
01;05;23;25 - 01;05;24;16
Pri
I know. Yeah, for.
01;05;24;16 - 01;05;42;03
Aaron
Me, it's just like, I just don't feel like Twitter's giving me what I want as much anymore, which is just like, I want just to stay on top of what's going on. Like, I don't I don't need 50 million, like, just kind of memes about stuff like, I know it probably works better for a lot of people. Like the the masses, and I completely understand why they're making those decisions.
01;05;42;03 - 01;05;47;08
Aaron
I just want a place where I can learn, learn stuff like that's what I think is I.
01;05;47;10 - 01;05;47;27
Pri
So it's not.
01;05;47;27 - 01;05;48;06
Aaron
That from.
01;05;48;06 - 01;05;49;17
Pri
Everything. So it's like, no.
01;05;49;20 - 01;06;14;19
Chris
Have I miss like my personal Twitter I miss is the days when longform journalism was, you know, having mass popularity and like interesting articles from Texas Monthly would go viral and you could have conversations around those things. And that's just not an emphasis to them at all. Nor, you know, our media, properties able to support long form journalism anymore.
01;06;14;19 - 01;06;37;19
Chris
So, you know, such is life. But if I could turn back time as it relates to Twitter or, you know, somewhere in the, you know, 2012 to 2016 period when, you know, people thought it's a good idea to, hey, let's just give a journalist $20,000 so that they can, you know, write a 10,000 word article for our monthly magazine when that was a thing.
01;06;37;22 - 01;06;59;17
Aaron
Yeah, completely. But it worked, you know, like it. I think it did. You know, of, at least in part, some checks and maintained a bit of stability related to it. I do think like you're just going to be aggregation, right. Like now that you can you have this information deluge really hard to pierce through things. And now you can begin to like manage that using these automated agentless systems.
01;06;59;17 - 01;07;15;00
Aaron
And so I think that they'll be able to kind of like push information more to like the middle of the bell curve instead of just these extremes. But I would love a place that isn't Partizan in some, some way where we could get back to just like, oh, that's a cool article, right? Like, I do think that there was a lot to that.
01;07;15;00 - 01;07;28;03
Aaron
And I do think without it, the discourse across the planet and on the internet just going to decay a little bit. Yeah. I mean, like just sifting through Twitter now, even if you're like managing the algorithm a bit more actively, it's still kind of crappy. It's not the same.
01;07;28;05 - 01;07;38;03
Pri
Which you create. There's going to be some consumer AI social thing that's going to be epic, and we're all going to be on unless one of these platforms can evolve into that. But that's clearly where things will go.
01;07;38;05 - 01;07;38;25
Chris
Yeah, definitely.
01;07;38;27 - 01;07;43;14
Pri
It's like individual portals. Cool. But should we call you guys I think yeah.
01;07;43;16 - 01;07;49;02
Chris
We've gone long. Yeah. Wow. Wow, a record length episode and all of that. Eric as well.
01;07;49;06 - 01;07;51;09
Pri
I know I miss him, but.
01;07;51;11 - 01;07;57;21
Chris
I think we should probably intro the show. I think you guys should distance yourself from my takes on Coinbase.
01;07;57;24 - 01;08;23;25
Aaron
I know, I mean, Chris, I think they're fair critiques and I know sitting beneath it, I'm sure that there's just because you've built these organizations in the past, I mean like there's a ton of respect for for being able to kind of go through that slog regardless of how you do it. But I think it's fair critiques. I think it's just kind of differences around the edges of can it get corrected in some capacity, or is it is it kind of like, you know, off from from the core?
01;08;23;25 - 01;08;27;29
Aaron
And I don't know if I'd go that far personally, but understand why you may believe that.
01;08;28;06 - 01;08;55;19
Chris
Yeah, I know I appreciate and, I'm glad you acknowledged that. You know, some of my views might be a little more niche through, an experience I've had myself or, you know, I think for all the ups and downs of a company, you know, I was extremely proud of what we were able to build, how we were able to exert, and the fact that, like, I can point to those brands and say they're not cringe and they're, you know, we've been out there a long time.
01;08;55;19 - 01;09;12;06
Chris
So, yeah, it's one of those things where it's it's nice, but it does give you maybe certain perspectives and, you know, it makes you want to speak up whether whether it's warranted or not. You know, sometimes I just gotta get on, get on a podcast and yap about.
01;09;12;06 - 01;09;15;12
Aaron
It, as we all do. And that's a great reminder that this is not society.
01;09;15;17 - 01;09;38;13
Pri
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Nerd Society. Today we have Aaron, Chris and myself discussing all the news of, you know, what's happening in the Dow, the drug culture, tech, AI and much, much more. Just a quick reminder that these thoughts and opinions are our own and not of our employer. Let's get it going. Sorry. Bingo. How about the intro?
01;09;38;13 - 01;09;39;07
Pri
Good. All right.
01;09;39;07 - 01;09;46;08
Aaron
Well Kurt nice one guys, I hope everybody has a lovely weekend. Was a great palate, palate cleanser for the day and the week. So I appreciate you all. Yeah.
01;09;46;08 - 01;09;46;25
Pri
I'm excited.
01;09;46;25 - 01;09;47;18
Chris
Yeah. Good.
01;09;47;25 - 01;09;48;17
Pri
I think about.
01;09;48;18 - 01;09;55;08
Chris
Yeah, I think we call this one the Big episode. I, very basic the big way.
01;09;55;10 - 01;09;55;24
Pri
Yeah.
01;09;55;26 - 01;09;59;08
Chris
The visual aggregate that's got, as good a vibe to it. Let's go with the.
01;09;59;08 - 01;10;01;15
Pri
Big, All right, there we go. Big wide. Me.
01;10;01;18 - 01;10;04;07
Chris
It's like a nickname. It's like one of those athletes get those. Weird.
01;10;04;10 - 01;10;09;10
Pri
That's a big Lebowski. But like, the big. Yeah, wag me the big. Oh, me. So cool.
01;10;09;16 - 01;10;17;13
Chris
All right. Bye, guys. See you.
01;10;17;16 - 01;10;30;02
Chris
For.