Jill Robin Payne - The Third Side of the Coin

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Aloha and welcome to today’s episode, where we have an extraordinary guest who has dedicated over four decades to advancing mental health, personal growth, and the art of compassionate communication. Jill Robin Payne has not only carved out a distinguished career as a psychotherapist, author, and educator, but she’s also pioneered the concept of Bempathy®, a transformative approach that fuses empathy with lighthearted banter to create stronger, more harmonious relationships. With a master’s degree in clinical psychology, Jill has taught behavior modification, lectured across the country, and contributed to national discussions on mental health through her appearances on radio, television, and social media.

Her journey began as the first student from her college to intern at the prestigious National Institutes of Health, followed by her master’s work at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Houston. Throughout her illustrious career, Jill has developed rehabilitative programs, shared her insights at top medical conferences, and even authored guidebooks aimed at empowering the emotionally and physically challenged.

Whether she’s speaking on the intersection of social psychology and current events or advocating for mental health as essential as physical well-being, Jill’s passion shines through. She’s committed to ‘Spreading the Goodness’ by integrating mind, body, and the power of Bempathy® in everything she does.

Today, we’re going to explore her unique contributions to mental health, her innovative work, and her journey as an inspiring thought leader in a world that’s rapidly evolving. Let’s welcome Jill Robin Payne!

https://jillrobinpayne.com/

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Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that the world is treating you the way you want it to treat you. I hope that the sun is shining and the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I have something today for all of you that you're going to enjoy. So aloha and welcome to today's episode where we have an extraordinary guest who has dedicated over four decades to advancing mental health, personal growth, and the art of compassionate communication. Jill Robin Payne has not only carved out a distinguished career as a psychotherapist, author, and educator, but she's also pioneered the concept of Be Empathy, a transformative approach that fuses empathy with lighthearted banter to create stronger, more harmonious relationships. With a master's degree in clinical psychology, Jill has taught behavior modification, lectured across the country and contributed to national discussions on mental health through her appearances on radio, television and social media. Her journey began as the first student from her college to intern at the prestigious National Institutes of Health. followed by her master's work at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Houston. Throughout her illustrious career, Jill has developed rehabilitative programs, shared her insights at top medical conferences, and even authored guidebooks aimed at empowering the emotionally and physically challenged. Whether she's speaking on the intersection of social psychology and current events or advocating for mental health as essential as physical well-being, Jill's passion shines through. She's committed to spreading the goodness by integrating mind, body, and the power of the empathy in everything that she does. Today, we're going to explore her unique contributions to mental health, her innovative work, and her journey as an inspiring thought leader in a world that's rapidly evolving. Jill, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here today. Aloha to you, George. I'm telling you, my head just got this big. I Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You've been doing so much. Yeah. I was going to say, you just did Bempathy. By giving me all those kudos, it hits a region in the brain where I get a reward. And it's just like you gave me a hundred dollar bill or some chocolate, which is my favorite. I mean, look at my face. Look at it. I'm beaming. Thank you so much. I really mean it. Yeah. Well, I think you're at the forefront. I see this whole new sort of awareness that seems to be emerging, whether it's in the workplace, whether it's in mental health, whether it's in the communication we have in our families and our friends and all of our relationships. And I think that you have kind of been pioneering this for quite some time. Maybe you can give us a little bit of background on some of the foundation stones of what you've been teaching. So let me give you a little bit of foundation from me. I have wonderful, well, my parents, I have one that is still alive, my mom. And my dad was an ophthalmologist who did good deeds all across the world. Really, he volunteered his services in Africa. My mom has helped all, anybody that needs help. She has monuments for people that have needed help. I have to be very careful with what I say. And so they trained me and not just trained me, I saw, they modeled how important it is that we are not the only people in the world and that no one is perfect. And so that's how it came to be. And then I became a recreational therapist helping the mentally ill because I have a brother that has paranoid schizophrenia. And so that's how it started in the mental health field because I wanted to help my brother and way back when, Even though you hear about it, people don't really understand it, George. And so now I've morphed into a communication coach and a social psychology individual. And I say that because people, when you say therapy, what do you think of when I say therapy? What do you think of? scary problems, like the psychological problem. Maybe they're not trustworthy. Right. So that's how come I like to stay away from that. And even when my clients see me, they say I'm more like a friend. I've got a couch. I've got a bunch of comfortable chairs. And I have a desk that I never sit behind. And I let everyone pick where they want to sit. I've had some people sit on the Put both parties first because you want to think in your head, I want a win-win situation. And isn't life perception? Think about it, right? So I'm going to perceive that this interview is going to go great. It's going to go great. It is. Yeah. I think so. Prior to getting started, I had mentioned to you the title of your new book, The Third Side of the Coin. And I didn't even realize that. And I'm curious. It was like the light bulb went off in my mind. I'm like, the third side of the coin? What's she talking about? And then I looked down. I'm like, oh, yeah. And on the cover, you have that third little coin. It's like this Ariadne thread that connects everything. How did that come to be? Maybe you could fill us in on that. I will fill you in on that. So I learned from people. And so I did a lot of group therapy. And when I do group therapy, I do what I call just the whiteboard. I'll put a word on the whiteboard and then everybody else will tell me what they think that word means to them. And then we just put all these things out there and talk. and we come to a conclusion. So if I'm talking about relationships, they tell me what they think of relationships. Well, anyway, I was talking about how there are two sides to a coin. And my crowd that I was talking to is they were saying, Jill, look at this coin. It has three sides. I don't remember who or what. It was just one of the times I did group because I learn a lot from people. And if people would just do that, you will learn so much from other people, which will make you even a better person. So that's how it came to be. And I was thinking, that's what I do. I help people see another side. And I came up with, I mean, it's been I've been building on this for forty years and it really boomed before COVID. It boomed before COVID when we were getting so involved with our cell phones and we were texting more. I had a client come in and she was talking to me and she just said, I talked to my boyfriend and he said this. And I said, well, did you talk or did you talk? And this was years ago. This is talking. So they have group dates, talking this way. And that's okay if you're going to do that. The more you practice something, the better you are at it. so I am not very good at this how are you george I don't know I'm not I have my my clients they just feel like this uh I'm not very good I'm better at this and so we just we just need a balance and so that's how I with my with my clients the people I've been working with I've seen what's going on you you see it in the research it's validated me right Yes. What is the surgeon general just came out with social media is detrimental or can be? Well, do you know? Listen, do you know? Go look at go look at research screen time. doing what I'm doing right now. Screen time affects us and can affect us in a negative way. So they've been doing studies on this for years, like, ten, fifteen years, maybe even longer. So we just need a balance. And think about your relationships. You need a balance. It can't always be about your partner or your friends or you. We just need to remember that we need to look at the dynamics and the bigger picture. Right. That's it's so well said. I can't help but hear the imagery laid in words that you're using. Like, you know, I see the other side and you know, it's, I'm just curious that has to play a big role, not only in helping people or coaching people or working with people or even writing a book or just relationships in general, but it seems like you have a really unbelievable way of using metaphors and language that helps people see like what, well, How are you, what is your relationship to language and imagery and influence? Well, I do believe that if people can see it, they can feel it. This is what I tell my clients. The more senses you use, it's in my books. The more senses you use, the more you make sense of things. So George- That's so beautiful. Right. So I can sit here and look at my cat and sit outside in the yard and I can have all these thoughts in my head. And unless I have schizophrenia, I can't hear it. I can't see it. I can't feel it. I can't taste it. So we need to take it out of here. It slows it down. It makes you see a different perception. And that's why I tell my clients to even talk on their phones because they like their phones. And if you talk on your phone and play it back to you, you've used your mouth and then you also use your ears to hear it. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that... I guess that's why one line of poetry can be more meaningful than a four hundred page service agreement. Right. Because you're like you're drinking it in like you're seeing it. You're saying it. You're breathing in. It's meaningful. Do you think that that might be the foundation for not only the conflicts we're having, but also for the empathy where it's this idea of having a meaningful conversation? Right. So again, I think before we started, I showed you that I have my cell phone here and you know what? I want you to know that I put it away so I can't see it because if you have your cell phone out and it's even off and you see it, you will spend more time thinking about your cell phone than you will about the person you're with. So I recommend everybody put it away. But I just wanted to show you, though, this is what we're becoming. And I've noticed that some of the people that I work with and talk to, they've gotten a more blunted affect because I want you to look around. Everybody out there, look around at people on their phones. My husband loves his phone and he plays checkers and he's like this. And so what happens to my face? It gets blunted. And if it's blunted, I can't feel as much. And if I'm also looking at this, I'm not practicing reading your face. And if I can't read your face or mimic you or even mirror you, my empathy is going to go down, even though empathy is back on the rise. I don't know, you know, that's research. So I don't know what that means because to me, if I can't read your facial cues or your body language or really relate with you and connect with you, how am I going to be empathetic with you? So this is what we need to practice more. Yeah, it's... I have a bunch of questions written down. Let me just jump into this first one right here because I think that this is a great segue for it. How can we embrace the dualities in life without being constrained by them? And what deeper truth might emerge when we view conflicts through the third side of the coin? So could you repeat that again? Yeah, I know. It's kind of a complex one. I had written it down when just coming off the third side of the coin, because I think, you know, prior to this, you know, and maybe even influenced now by by social media, like there's a lot of like dualities. It's like this or that, you know, black or white. Right. So so how can we embrace the dualities in life without being constrained by them? You know what I mean by that? It seems like that's what the third side of the coin is showing us. It's not heads or tails. Look at this part that runs all the way around it on some level. So how can we embrace these dualities that life gives us without being constrained by them? First, I have one word. We need to practice. Practice. And so we are practicing something, like I told you, the phone, or we're practicing talking to you. We need to have a balance, and humans are constantly working at a balance. And so my feel is we need to make our life interesting. We need to make it more interesting than the little bits of what we find out on the internet. And I'm doing that. So we need to push ourselves because I am getting a dopamine rush, everyone is, with the little pings on your phone. I got a dopamine rush when you just gave me the compliment. So if I'm going to constantly have something that I don't have to be motivated to do anything with, it's just here and I hear pings and I'm feeling good about it. It's hard to break away. So we need to put the phone away. We need to have some safe space. places in our life, whether it's at the dinner table and we need to do it regularly, consistently. And I would say, do it. It's like a drug. So I say, do it a little bit at a time. So that's what I say. So if in the daytime, you're on the, you're gaming for, this is what I do with my clients. They game for eight hours on Saturday. So if they're gaming eight hours, I said, do seven hours. And then in that other hour, fill it in with something fun. And then I may make some suggestions to that because they might not know. And so that's what we're going to need to do because we are creating what is called black and white thinking. Yes. Okay. And that's a cognitive distortion, which I'm right, you're wrong, or she's right, whatever. you know I'm wrong either way and a lot and also I want to talk a little bit about that with the empathy so empathy could be uh increasing but empathy no buts about it because if you say butts I say I sit on my butt b-u-t-t when you say but if I say you're you're beautiful and then I say but I don't like your shirt then I just so we take that out okay so Okay, I say it a lot. Anyway, what we need to do, though, is we need to think about and step back and look at the bigger picture. And then C, C first, be dynamically watchful, which is what I have in my book, mindful. Yeah, mindful is not enough. Think about it. If you're in virtual reality, do you know that your brain cannot tell the difference? I didn't know that. No, can't tell the difference. And I mean, it's wonderful. People are doing surgery without hurting people, practicing, and it has wonderful things. We just need to be more aware. That's why I say we need what is called an accomplice in our life. And I can be that person's accomplice. I help people see a third side of the coin. You could be. You are an accomplice to so many people because you have a podcast. So you and I looked at your podcast. So you help people see a different another perspective, a third side of the coin in many different topics. So there you go. You do it yourself. Yeah. It's interesting to think about when I think about what I've done on the podcast and just having this many conversations, even though it's virtual, it's taught me so much about communication. And maybe because it is virtual, like there may be lacking the felt presence of the other. Like I can't come up and be like, touch your shoulder and be like, Joe is such a beautiful person. point. Or I can't be like, I can't be next to you and have this pheromone exchange. We're like, that was mind blowing Jill. Thank you. Like on some level, I feel like we could still have, you know, maybe through some sort of paralinguistics or something like that. There is something that's happening between us and conversations that are online that we can still learn from, right? Like we can use social media to better ourselves on some level, right? Right. Yes, we can. We just need to understand where things are coming from and that everything has a benefit. So I was just reading about, someone asked me a question the other day and I was, well, I'm really not sure on that answer. So I research things and look up Look up things. Not on TikTok or Instagram. I research. It's real important. So I'll tell my clients, look in psychology today because the people there have licenses. And I'm not saying that TikTok or Instagram or any of these different platforms are negative. You just need to know where the information is coming from. So, yeah. So now I just lost track of what I was saying about looking up stuff. No, it's true. Yeah. You know, if if we get lost in this and, you know, as a I'm coming up on fifty years old, so I I may be the Generation X might be one of the last generations that was that was born without the Internet, at least in in the Western world on some level. And I think that you you did have to go and. the propaganda or the paid information that's out there wasn't as well disguised as it is now. So when you go to TikTok, when you go to Instagram, it's imperative to understand that the majority of people with whom you're getting or sharing information with have an agenda behind it. That's usually from, it's usually company science or it's usually, you know, someone that's paid money to have that influence out there. So I think it's imperative to do your own research and start looking at maybe medical journals instead of, an influencer or someone on that level. But yeah, I think that that is a detriment to information gathering that may not have been in existence that long ago, but it's, I don't know. I guess here's another question that kind of comes to mind is like, When we talk about empathy and staying away from our phones, do you think that we're going to get to a point where we can treat emotional landscapes with the same care and sustainability that we do with ecosystems? Can we draw that parallel and maybe learn from that? Well, I think we can learn from anything if we want to. We need to be open, right? Yeah. I mean, people that come to see me, they're open to have a better life. And now there are some people that will go see therapists that just want to complain. Those people... Those people don't come see me because I'm real direct. And I even tell them, go to my website because that's who I am. And I will give you homework. Some people will put it in file thirteen. Do you know people don't know what file thirteen is? File thirteen is the trash. And so... Right. So therapists may give suggestions and there are a lot of therapists. They just sit there and listen. I'm that's why I say I'm more like a communication coach, because if you think about it, everything's relational. I have that in my book and I'll, I'll explain that later. Also everything, everything is communication. Think about it. Even if I'm sitting here, not doing anything, not saying anything. My whole physique is communicating something to you. And then it's also communicating something different to you than it would be to the person beside you because of your background and your perception on things. So communication, I have people come in and they say, Joe, I'm having trouble communicating. Well, that's a big... Right. That's a big thing. Right. Yes. And I like to think of communication like a dance. So you want to flow. Yeah. You want to flow with the people, the cadence. I talk about cadence. And even in one of my book, I talk about speeds. I talk about people being a car. One of my favorite analogies is that I believe this is my theory that everyone is like a nineteen sixty eight Camaro. They're beautiful, right? They're classic. Yeah, great car. Great car, right? Yes. And so you don't want to make it a Mercedes because then it wouldn't be that classic. So you want to tune it up. realign it and polish it. And you want to do that as often as you can to keep it running smoothly and you align it to keep it going straight. So if it gets off alignment, like we do in life, even me as a therapist, we need to be tuned up and realigned. And so that's how I think of people and we go different speeds. Like I like to be that red Ferrari and go to a hundred miles now. If you go real fast, which is what technology is doing for us, think of yourself when we are online and we are doom scrolling. We are in that Ferrari going two hundred miles an hour and you can't see clearly when you are going fast. So I tell my clients, think of your leg as having a throttle on it. Pull it back. and go a little slower, whatever your speed is. So you can see clearer. So you can see the red flags. So you might even see a good looking hunk over there. I mean, there's so many, there's so many things you may be missing, right? Yeah. And, and so this is, we just need to, we need to start looking at ourselves and our life. And if our world is cluttered, then we need to look at ourselves first and get to love ourselves and find out who we are. I mean, it takes, sometimes we never find out who we are. Yeah. Does it take courage to slow down? Can I tell you a funny story? Please. I would love that. I think it's funny because I tell this to my couples that will come in. So one day, this was probably about two years ago, and I just celebrated my tenth year anniversary on my second year anniversary. Thank you. Till death do us part. OK, so anyway, so I'm sitting with his name's Byron and we're sitting watching TV and I'm looking at him and I'm going. Byron, all you do is sit and watch TV and stuff your face. It's gross. So you know what he said to me? He goes, well, Jill, that's what you're doing. And I said, you're right. Yeah. He's a therapist, too, by the way. Imagine that. Yeah. It's very interesting. Yeah, but he's more analytical than me. He just constantly analyzes me. And let me tell you something. I do my, bye, I go walk and take a walk. So that's exactly what you said. So sometimes it's just easier to look at other people, to blame, and even blame. I don't even like blame. I like to just say it's the dynamics and we need to take responsibility that we're not perfect. So not so much blame. That blame word is, I don't know, when I say blame, it's a word. What do you think of when I say blame? I think of like a wet blanket. Yeah. And my face. Blame them. Right. Yeah. So just let's take responsibility that we're all imperfect. I let my clients know I'm imperfect, you know, and it's important because people like to be with people that they know aren't perfect. That person might know what they know, they just know that they're not perfect. And then they feel more at home with that person. In your experience and in your opinion, do you think that that's what we're seeking out in relationships is sort of like this Jungian mirror? Or maybe you could give some aspect. It seems that there's patterns in these relationships. Like we find someone with whom sometimes we think we find someone who will fix us subconsciously or maybe we see ourselves in someone else. But maybe you could speak to the idea of patterns in relationships. Well, gosh, that's big. So there is something called the attachment theory that I will have clients look up themselves. And by the way, I like people to do their own homework because it gets you to remember it and retain it better. If I just tell you something, you're more likely to forget it. It means more if you look it up. I give some things and then so they'll look that up. That's one thing that does affect you. And so when you're raised with parent figures, it doesn't matter who they are. Usually it depends on what theorist you're talking to. We will try to let's say if we had a parent figure that worked a lot. And so they weren't there for us. So we may be attracted to emotionally unavailable people or people that aren't so much there because we're trying to relive that and fix it. That's the easiest way I can explain it. And so all we need to do is I have people do this, is write down a list of the characteristics of the people that you want in your life. That's friends, that's lovers, that's anybody. And that's what you need to stick with. The problem is a lot of times we put down what we don't want. Yeah. So I have my clients do it and then we go over it and then we edit it. So there's a lot of times I'll say, I want my husband to stop nagging me. Well, then my brain here is nagging. So I want my husband to speak to me with respect. Yeah. Do you see the difference? And we do that. And then also a lot of people don't even know what they want. So you know what I do? I tell them, write down what you don't want. And then on the opposite side, you write the opposite. And that's what you do want. And then if they've had a tragic relationship, I tell them, write down all the negative qualities of that person. And then write down the opposite of that, of those characteristics. And that needs to be at the top of your list so that you don't go back and find that person. That's beautiful information. Thanks for sharing that. Right. I feel like if I did that exercise, then the list of things that I don't want would probably be things about myself that I don't like. Is that, does that sound too crazy? Or have you found that? Is that something that happens? Yes, that, that, that is that. Yes. There's so many different, you know, we are so complex yet. We are so simple. So, so we're simple to the, uh, to the aspect that we want to feel. We want to fit in. We want to be appreciated. We, we want to be respected and we want to be heard. So that's the simplicity. Yeah. The, the, The difficult part is we are so complex because no one has the same brain, no one has the same retina, no one has the same fingerprints, not even identical twins. So everyone, including me and you, have a different language. Forget the men and women, okay? I don't care if you're a them, that, or an it, everyone has a different language. And we need to be more aware of the cadence and the words that other people use. And the more that you can mirror it and reflect it, the more that they will listen to you. Right. Yeah. And you'll connect. That is beautiful. I love the, yeah, of course. I love the analogy of the Camaro. And when I think about that, like the word authenticity comes up for me. And we're talking about the Camaro going fast. But it seems that so many of us, especially in today's world with the cell phone or with social media, like we are trying to put that Mercedes emblem on the Camaro and just trick everybody. Like, hey, this is an old new Mercedes. And that seems to be the fear on some level. In your opinion, is there a relationship between fear and authenticity? well will you remind me that because I want to say one thing of what you just said I have these young people telling me I do not put a filter on when I go online and I'm Maybe I should. And so what they're telling me is that when they put a filter online and they want to still have that filter, and we're not talking about just the outside, the inside filter. They want to have that when they're in the real world. So if you are not being authentic, then you are not going to be happy with yourself. You will feel displaced and it will cause depression, stress, anxiety, all these things that are going on. That's one of the many things. So that might have even answered your question. So I think it's interesting. And FYI, plastic surgeons are getting a lot more work, a lot more business. Yeah. Wow. Because people want to look like they do online. Yeah, and especially with all these crazy new filters and stuff, you just put a filter on and you don't have any blemishes. You look like your face is more symmetrical. It's so interesting to see the painted masks and rattles we still use. They even do, if you look at TikTok and maybe Instagram too, they will turn you into a cartoon, which I think is interesting because that will bring me to this. This was a cover of this other book. The book now is this. I changed it because people thought this was for kids. It's for adults. I came up, what makes my Vempathy unique, and I'm going to work, George, to animate them myself because we have AI. I might take a course. I want to animate these characters because this is Beacon. This is Brighton, and this is Beau. This was my dog that died a year ago. I found her on the street. She saved me. She was wonderful. Anyway, so these are fraternal twins. So he is of color. And he's a minute older. So he is the leader. Someone said, how come you made a guy a leader? I don't know because the name Beacon to me seems like a guy. Who knows? And so anyway, he looks like a lighthouse and he is the beacon of light. And he shines on his sister and enlightens her. And she has starry eyes. And then you have little Bo that's always by her side, helps tie things together and is the compromiser. So we are all, okay, we can be all these or one of them. These are the three personalities in our world. Think about it. An instigator is a leader. So that's it. Those are the first. So you think, you're probably a leader, and I bet you do compromising, right? Yeah. Because you're from Hawaii, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I work at the Boys and Girls Club on afternoons. And I got to tell you, there is nothing more psychologically rewarding and challenging and fascinating than dealing with a group of second graders. Like all the emotion is raw. You see the beacons, you see the brightens, and you see it in the same individual. And you can't help but be like, oh my gosh, this is me this many years ago. Oh my gosh, this is a situation that's happened in my life. Like it's so beautiful. beautiful to get to see the psychology playing out and, and do it. But, but this brings up this idea of, of you had mentioned that this is the, the attitudes of our world. Not, you didn't say attitudes, but like beacon, Brighton personalities, personalities. Yeah. Okay. Can we extend that to like generations? On some level, when I see these Instagram filters and when I see technology coming up, I see the kids without a rite of passage from a wisdom keeper. And I know I'm kind of going through different areas right now, but it seems like we're lacking. The wisdom keepers and the rites of passage and the handing down of wisdom. Instead, we're getting AI. We're getting new filters, and we're getting this bottom-up transition of technology. But maybe you could speak to this idea of rites of passage and the beacons. Do you think maybe we need some more beacons from the older wisdom keepers? So I think we need to have people model what they talk about. I love that. I love that. Yes. I, you know, one thing my son loves about me, there's probably some things that I, that drives him crazy is that he says, mom, you know, when you've made a mistake, you know, your imperfections, and then you let people know. And I think that that, that is a good thing for us to accept our imperfections. And it makes us wonderful. If you go to places where they have all this plastic surgery, I'm for plastic surgery. I mean, you know, I want to look good too. But what I'm saying is if you make yourself look too perfect, you look pretty, you don't look beautiful. So it's the imperfections that make us look beautiful. Right. And that's what I think we need to not dwell on our imperfections. How can we use that imperfection to make us this wonderful person that we really are or can be or improve ourselves? So that I'm constantly working on. You can see how I'm so... I exude a lot of energy. So I work at channeling that because sometimes that can be too much for people. And so when you come see me in my office, it's more channel. I still get excited. It's more channeled. So that's what I'm saying. So you love it. Although I... It saw how you look at things. It got me in trouble when I was younger. So when I'd work with people, people would take it wrong. So, yeah. Yeah. You're preaching to the choir. I feel like I exude a similar amount of energy to people, and it can be very off-putting. And I'm enjoying it. That's why when you were talking and you said all these wonderful things about me, I swear that has made my day the whole day. The whole day. Even asking, before you even really got to know me, asking if I could be on again. That is such a big compliment. You know, I'll tell you, may I tell you another story? Please. Okay. So I love my mom and she is still alive today at ninety one and she's just a pistol. She's done so many good deeds for all. I cannot tell you just so many goodies anyway. So she went to see this famous actor, I don't know who he was, in some type of play. And she was allowed to go backstage to see him. I wish I could remember his name. And she goes up to him and he turns to her and he goes, did I do okay? And my mom is like, oh, yes, you're fabulous. Here this famous person that is known for being the best of all actors in the theater asked my mom, was I OK? so we're human and we just need to realize that that everyone no matter this this we need to stop putting people on pedestals because they're falling off so even when my clients will compliment me I will tell them I had someone just say all these wonderful things the other day I said I I want you to know that I'm imperfect and I told her I said because I don't want you to put me on a pedestal because then I'm going to fall So we, we want to, it's not so much that we're equal because come on, there's some people that work harder than others as humans to, to just, we, we have pain and not all of us. There's like a small smidgen that don't, they die young, by the way. So most of us have pain and most of us want to avoid pain. We'll do it from eating, doing scrolling, whatever it takes to avoid the pain. And we just need to remember that. So I'm hoping this, just even that with my bemphathy will get people to realize that. And the reason I talk about dynamic watchfulness and not mindfulness anymore, because mindfulness to me is just too much about me. And we have technology now and it is a part of our life, George. And we can't just say, I'm not letting my kids on the phone. No, it's a part of our life and we need to learn how to work with it. When I was younger and the TV came to be, my mom and dad told me, everybody else got to watch a lot of TV. I was only allowed one hour of TV. That was it. And if I didn't do my homework, I didn't get any. So it's all how we deal with this. We need to understand we are working with technology and, and it's working for us, right? Yeah. We're having a good time and we just need to work with it, not work against it. Work with it. Yeah. I love it. I, I can't help but think of the great book by Marshall McLuhan called The Gutenberg Galaxy, where he talks about the way in which the printing press fundamentally changed the way we interpret ourselves and the world around us with concepts like exact repeatability. And then now we have this new format or this derivative of it's fundamentally changing how we communicate on some level. Do you think that we're going to see profound changes the same way the printing press gave us profound changes in print? Yes, yes. And I think it's positive and negative. Yeah, of course. And it is how we look at it. To me, this is me. And I tell people, I'm one therapist. This is me with my forty years of doing this, that I think and love people. And I know you are the same. I love people. I know that there's some people that might get on my nerves. I might get on some people's nerves. I love, I truly love people. And if you love cats or love people, it's going to come through. And I think we need to be more into loving and caring about the human race. And then everything will fall into place. That rhymed. That rhymed. Say it again. Let's hear it again. I don't know if I can do it. It's like my class. We need to love the human race and then everything will fall into place. It's beautiful. It's so easy. And that's what my books do. Yeah. I guess. Anyway. And so my books simplify things such as that. And I give many different techniques like we're talking about. To me, it's common sense. Just like when you do your podcast. I couldn't podcast. It was too difficult for me. Anyway, for you, it's probably common sense. You have the mic. You put your lighting up and it makes sense to you. Right. And we all have, we all have our place and our specialties and our gifts and we need to find it and then share it with others. I think that's, that's my feel. And it makes us feel good to, to do that. When they, like, there's a lot of things that I love about our conversation so far, but one thing I really want to touch on is this idea of, like you're creating a new word that represents a new set of ideas that doesn't have a whole lot of residue on it. And like, you know, you can't go anywhere without a linguistic pathway. Like, is this something you put a lot of thought into? Like, it's a brilliant thing to do. Can you tell us about that process? What's the truth? That's wonderful. I would love to learn more. So I I'm always thinking, and we're all always thinking. I know we're not supposed to say always and never. Our brain is constantly going, some people more than others. For instance, today I was up at one o'clock and I'm thinking how I can, I'm the power of attorney over my brother and my mom's night away. So I'm thinking of all the things that I can do to make things better. And so because of that, I was thinking about the world. If I could sprinkle happy dust on everyone, George. I would do it. My clients laugh at me because they say, oh, you would. So since I couldn't do that, I created what I believe we need in the world. And that is to banter, which is lighthearted chitchat. What happened to humor? And humor needs to be done in the right place at the right time. In my books, I have TP, which is not toilet paper. It's timing and position. If I go down Westheimer in Houston, Texas, I can just as easily hit the red lights as I can hit green lights. Yeah. So we need to be more thinking about this. And that's what I was thinking about with my Bempathy. So to put that with something heavy like empathy. Because empathy is deep. Do you know this happened one time with one client and I'll never forget it. I won't forget it. So I am very empathetic. Women, by the way, are more empathetic than men. We can, yeah. And there's people that are more empathetic than others. I am very empathetic. I can feel energy. And matter of fact, if I'm not in a good mood, you don't even want to be in my room. Okay. So this one particular day, I was seeing over forty clients a week during COVID and I was seeing one of my wonderful clients and I was sympathizing with that client, not empathizing one time. And there was such a, I got goosebumps. There was such a disconnect. I felt that I owed that client another session. And I believe that client even felt it. Sympathy is feeling for somebody, whereas empathy is being with that, feeling with that person. It goes a lot deeper than that. And it's easier to sympathize. And I do believe that a lot of people are doing that and people take it as they're really empathizing. And without empathy, you cannot be compassionate. And just because you have empathy does not mean you're compassionate. Compassion is an act. It's sort of if I see you and I saw you had a bunch of books and I opened the door for you, I'm being compassionate. So it's an act of service. And so we need to, I guess, practice this. And that's how I got with this Bempathy. I was just watching how things were transpiring. And I wanted, what kind, I was going to come up with, what did I come up with? Schmooze, it was going to be schmooze and empathy. Schmempathy. And somebody had already... Do you like that? I like it, yeah. So Schmempathy was my first. And then I looked it up and somebody had already used that. It wasn't trademarked or anything. And I said, you know what? I don't like that anyway. And so then I said, you know, what about banter? Banter and empathy, bempathy. And that's how I, I mean, I really thought of it. And then my characters, I remember talking to my dad and his caregiver for a whole year. I would call them up and say, what? I need some characters to go with my empathy because people relate better with cartoon characters, even adults. What did Park City, what are those cartoons that- South Park, Family Guy, all of these. Exactly. cartoons that came out yeah yes because see they're more expressive and they're easier to read so people realize so I said I want something like that and so they would come up with these really intellectual words and so then I would look I like to simplify this I'm yeah and so I simplified with beacon beacon of light a beacon is what does a lighthouse do it helps guide you right and It's not a boss, it guides you, it brightens your life. I said, beautiful. And then I even described what the person would look like to my graphic artist. And then I said, I think fraternal twins because I want them connected. And then I said, what could the girl brighten? She's brightened. And then he came up with the starry eyes. And then my dog came about a year later. I was walking Hershey. I was walking Hershey. And Hershey saved me, by the way. I was in a very bad accident in where I even had PTSD for two years. Really, really bad. And I found Hershey, or Hershey found me on the street. I do believe in this. I don't know if you believe. I believe in energy. My son buys me things from Hawaii with the peace sign and all that. I believe in it. Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah, Hershey came up to me in the Fifth Ward, which is not a great section in Houston, Texas. I was working there contracting. And Hershey came up to me and said, take me home. And the vet told me that day when I took her there for four hundred and something dollars that Hershey would have died if I didn't pick her up that day. But no buts. Hershey picked me up. So anyway, so I'm walking Hershey. That was a side story. So I'm walking Hershey one day and I'm looking down at her and I said, you know what? Hershey gets me to see another side of the coin. Hershey gets me to step back and learn how to compromise. And I said, you know what? I'm going to use Hershey. But I said, let's use a bow. Because a bow, because she's a girl, Hershey, will help tie everything together. A compromiser. Right. That's how I came up with that. Thank you for letting me share that. Thank you. That was wonderful. I enjoyed that. Yeah. Well, I think it's imperative. Not only a linguistic pathway, but so many symbolic references like that makes it land so much more significantly, whether it's a bow or a lighthouse or the idea of a cartoon character that is able to be bigger than life on some level. Right. Yeah. I think it just, it shows how, how powerful communication can be. Maybe it, maybe it's, it's explains how empathy can be like, it's a whole new world of expression. And, you know, I can't help, but see a spiritual component in there too. Is there a spiritual component to it? Oh, yes. I just told you how, how little Hirsch came to me and, and, and think about being enlightened and, The light. Matter of fact, when I do meditation with my clients or I do visualization, I use a warm white light or a soothing white light that protects you. So it's showing that it's bigger than us. And that's what spirituality is, that there's more to the world than just us. And you know what? It takes a load off of us. It enlightens us. There you go. Yes. So there you go. So the beacon of light is bigger and brighter. Right. It brings up this idea that if you can see the trauma, the things that happen in your life, like the biggest... mistakes, the biggest, the death of a child, the death of a loved one, someone that maybe is suffering from mental illness. Isn't it interesting how these are the things that unite us as human beings? They transcend race. They transcend gender. They transcend everything. You are part of something bigger. And only once you've begun to touch that fire that burns brighter than any light do you become someone with the experience to help other people through it on some level. It's so beautiful to think about it like that. You made me smile because I tell my clients the reason I'm a good therapist is because I've been through so much. And it's so true because if you've been through something, you may not feel what they feel. You get it. You get that that is very painful. And it's really interesting that someone was talking to me the other day about how can we get Gen Zs to feel more and to understand relationships better, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think it was my son that was saying that he's thirty three. And he was saying because they think different. They're looking at the devices. And so I said through movies, just like Walt Disney did for us. Think about it. He made it for adults and children. And they usually somebody died at the beginning. It was ridiculous. If you think of Bambi, one of my favorites, the mom dies. Right. And I still remember the movie. And so that way through movies that will help our children also learn. We need to have fun educating movies that show and model behavior of not just caring, but what do you do with that? When you empathize, what do you do with it? How does it help you? Because I could be a Republican and Democrat and I'm going to empathize with my my peeps. If I empathize with my peeps, then I'm going to look at the other side and go, well, they're wrong. So so we need to understand what empathy is. Empathy has some positive and negative. So we need to. What do you do with empathy? And that's, to me, what empathy is about. It's your chit-chatting and empathizing and going back and forth. And the mindset in my books and how I believe, when you come to see me or whoever my friends are, I want to make that situation a win-win. And I use this. I use the car dealer. The card. Okay. You want him to think he won and he wants to think he wants you to think that you won because he wants you to come back. Right. And you want to think you want him to think that you, that he won. So he gives you a good deal. So I say it's not manipulation. It's just, it's just making it, making people feel good. If, if my husband loses a fight with me or a discussion, then we both lost. Yeah. We both lost. That's, that's, that's my, that's my thought. So that's, I love that. You do like that. And so that's how I, yeah. So I get my clients to, to just maybe change your mindset. See, we're having so much fun and I, I had looked you up and well, it's important to know who you're talking with. And I, you know, what your name is. So saying your name, George, a couple of times, people like that. It makes us feel good and it makes me feel good. So for birthdays, I, I take my friends out for their birthday. Cause I, Yeah, I'm sharing. I'm sharing. I could even have my favorite dessert. We're having a great time, I think. Right. So do you see what I'm saying? So we need to just if we could think that way and and their bosses that you might not like, you're going to need to work with them. So how can you make that a win win? Sometimes you can't. I mean, come on. Nothing is perfect. So some things you're going to need to walk away and move on and get a tune up, get realigned, and go a different direction. There you go. Yeah, it's true. I'm thankful for the... the changing awareness that seems to be happening. And when we think about social media and we think about empathizing on some ways, I feel like this next generation that was born into this world of social media, like they're the first ones to have their entire lives be online, you know? And we, you and I could probably remember back to things like, man, I am sure glad that wasn't online. You know, I know that I can't like, whoa, I'm glad that wasn't online. But there's going to be a generation of people that have it online. And they're going to look back at the next generation and be like, oh, I remember when I put that online. You know, on some level, you can see this. You can see empathy beginning to find its way into the next generation. But it hasn't made its move all the way through on some level. That's what I was saying. This person that does, I think her name's Conrath, Sarah Conrath. Anyway, she does studies. She's at University of Michigan and she does studies about empathy. And she just did another study and she was saying that empathy is on the rise. So she said it's fluid. It's exactly what you're saying. So it is fluid. And I do believe everything is cyclical, even our history with our anger. If you go back to the sixties, we had a lot of- It's just cyclical. And we just need to be aware of it. I do believe, I do believe, it's not just I believe, they've done research. I mean, they've done studies. And they're going to find more studies. That this technology that we're bringing that's not man-made, that is not spiritual, is changing the brain structures. Yeah, it's it's shrinking the frontal lobe. It's doing bunches of different stuff to the frontal lobe. And they'll find out other things because you can they're just starting to do research on virtual reality. So virtual reality is just starting, George. So they're not when you do virtual reality, sometimes you get headaches because it's you're just using your eyes. They're not doing smell. They're not using all your senses yet. So that if I pick up a pen in virtual reality, I'm only using one part of my brain. Whereas if I do this right now in reality, I'm just my whole brain is lighting up. So what my fear is, is what is happening is that our brain structure is going to change and not go back. So right now they think it will go back. So there's something called neuroplasticity, which I love. Okay, so you know all about that. And I use that with my clients. I've worked with pain patients. I've worked with people with trauma. And you can change the structure of your brain. Usually, they say if you stop exercising regularly, Like your muscle goes to flab, right? So your brain does the same. It goes to baseline. My fear is that we're going to change the brain structure because if I change the brain structure of my brain and then I have a baby, so many things are genetics, right? And they even did a study. Go look up the snail theory. The snail study. Snail study. And what they did was they injected, they had a snail. This was mean. And they shocked it. They shocked the snail. And and so so the snail, that snail avoided that place where it was being shocked. So they took the RNA from that snail and put it into another snail and put that snail in the same position. And that snail that never was shocked avoided that little area that he could have gotten shocked. So they're saying that trauma is hereditary. To me, everything is genetics. It's they say fifty fifty nurture nature. Who knows? I do know a lot is genetics. I do know that nature does help because otherwise I wouldn't have a job. Without a doubt. I think it, I agree. I know we're kind of coming up on the, on the closing of it, but like, this is, we'll get into this when you come back or how are you doing on time? Okay. I don't know. Actually. It's about that time. We did a whole hour. You were wonderful. You were such a great host. Really. Thank you. I didn't even get through any of my, I would do that one question and I have like another ten. I hope I said what you needed. All of it. I would love to get into the idea of changing brand chemistry, default mode network, psychedelics, and the idea in which we can revisit our trauma in a meaningful way and almost a third person point of view. Because I've been talking to a lot of people about this and maybe I'll have you come on with another guest. Anyways, I will just keep talking if I don't cut you short, if I don't cut it off right now. But before I do that, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Gosh, I have a bunch of podcasts coming up and I don't know what they're, I'd have to go look. So just look me up. I'm Jill Robin Payne, J-I-L-L-P-A-Y-N-E and Robin like the bird, R-O-B-I-N. And I think if you look up my platforms, it's at, and my website is jillrobinpayne.com. And so look me up, email me. I tell people that and I would love to hear from people. Anything that they would like me to talk about. Yeah. All the links will be in the show notes. So we're here within the sound of our voice, whether it's today, whether you're live streaming five, ten, eight years from now, whenever it is, go down to the show notes and reach out to Jill. She's an incredible storyteller. She has forty years of experience and she's pioneering the ways in which we're going to be living in the future. And I really appreciate your time. Hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful day and go down, check out her books to really help you see the world in a different way, in my opinion. And in her opinion, I think she would agree. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. That's it.