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The built hapily podcast is about building apps, companies, and relationships in the HubSpot ecosystem. As HubSpot grows, so does the opportunity - and this podcast puts you in the room with the people making it all happen.
Hosted by Dax and Max, built hapily goes behind the scenes with HubSpot developers, solutions partners, startup founders and community leaders. Each episode delivers tactical insights into launching and scaling businesses around the HubSpot platform.
However, this podcast is about more than just building software. It's about building authentic connections, fulfilling careers, and lives you can be proud of. Guests share their personal journeys, hard-won lessons and philosophies for not just achieving success, but finding purpose and happiness along the way.
After all, this is about more than making apps. It's about building hapily - and you're invited along for the ride. Join Dax, Max and their guests to construct the life you've been dreaming of, one conversation at a time.
bhp S2E10 - Tim Jones, Eternal Works-Full
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Tim Jones, Eternal Works: [00:00:00] Yeah, so how honest can we be?
Dax Miller, hapily: You get to say everything you want.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: I said, "Hey. How many other black agency owners are there in the community of 6,000 agency partners?"
Dax Miller, hapily: Max actually learning a bunch today.
Max Cohen: Y'all. I'm here for
Dax Miller, hapily: On today's episode of The built hapily Podcast, we have the one, the only, Tim Jones from Eternal Works and BOHAP.
Max Cohen, hapily: Tim shares his story on how he made his way into the HubSpot universe and built a HubSpot agency with his wife and then also tells us the story about how he created the BOHAP Slack community, all that, and more on this episode of The built hapily Podcast.
​
Max Cohen, hapily: Tim how much [00:01:00] did Dax prep you for this wonderful adventure we like to go on
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: None. We're completely all natural here.
Organic, straight, organic.
Dax Miller, hapily: We want free style. We want the cipher. We want it true, real. And that's why we got the true real Tim Jones Eternal Works. Like we're keeping the eternal shout out to Bone Thugs. Leader and creator of a cool community working with the wife on an agency. Tim, what are you excited about in this HubSpot ecosystem?
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Oh man, there's a lot happening right now, man. Dang, that's a loaded question. Like crazy. There's a, there's so much right now I think to be excited about in the ecosystem. As a partner. I think there's dynamics with HubSpot that are consistently being looked at and improved and just working a lot better. I don't know, dude there's so much, like the software's just continuously getting better, right?
It's like any software's ever [00:02:00] changing. There are certain things that you've been hoping would happen for years that maybe took a little while that are finally popping up some that you're still waiting on. But like the things that are rolling out, are really cool. Some of the things are just like really home run hitters.
Like they should have been there all along kind of things. Even with some of the navigational changes. But what's really cool and, everybody's talking about this, been talking about it. I'm to the point now where I don't like talking about it 'cause I feel like everybody's talked about it, but the AI stuff that's rolling out in the tools not perfect in anyone's tool yet, but what we're seeing happen and begin to happen is kind of like crazy, wild dope.
Max Cohen, hapily: Yeah, we're some wild times right now both outside of the HubSpot Universe and inside of the HubSpot Universe.
Dax Miller: One of the things I wanted to ask is, so we met at Inbound randomly through a good friend Juan.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yep. Yep.
Dax Miller: Juan introduced is Hey, I think you should be interested in seeing what Tim's doing. So I wanna know, I never really got to understand like where you came from into the HubSpot ecosystem and what brought
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Oh wow. [00:03:00] Cool. Great. Yeah, great question.
Max Cohen: We want the Tim, we want Tim's origin story.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: oh wow. I don't know that we have a long enough window for my complete origin, but let's look at it like this. High school graduate went to art school growing up from elementary school through high school while going to regular school. Really, if we're being like, if we're being transparently honest, I wanted to do two things.
I wanted to draw comic books and do graffiti.
Max Cohen: Hell yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: That was it.
Max Cohen: Yep.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: My parents looked at me like I was crazy. There was no internet like today at all. Like the internet back then. We were on, we thought the internet was a OL back then, Like we're being honest like back then. Got outta high school.
Went to, I was always, I started working young. I was always, I was the kid with the lemonade stand mowing lawns, babysitting kids, whatever I could do to make money. Worked, started working when I was 14. Part-time, full-time in the summers. So I was always working, always had the hustle or whatever, like people would if I looked back on it.
That was always there. Was a year or two out of high school working at. [00:04:00] It's Macy's now was hex back then I was working in the men's department and in lady shoes of all places, which is whole, we can't even talk about that side of the world. while over there. But was drawing one day on a lunch break and a guy walked by who worked at another store that he and I, we talked all the time and he saw me drawing for the first time.
He is dude, do you think you could do a logo for me? And I was like, sure.
Max Cohen: There it is.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: probably do that. And so, spent a little while, I think it took me like two or three months, did some research, put some stuff together, came back, gave it to him probably four to six months after that, he walked up, handed me a business card with the logo on it and was like, I just quit and I'm going start my IT company.
Max Cohen: Geez.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And I was
Max Cohen: And then I woke up and I was head of a marketing agency and I had no idea what happened.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Look almost right. Like I just, from there I was doing business cards and logos for a bunch of people. I got, I was heavy into the music industry in my younger [00:05:00] years, specifically in the gospel, hip hop arena gospel music arena all that stuff, awards and stuff like that. Ended up getting into web.
I got a graphic design job just before nine 11. Nine 11 hit the cancel button on that agency. 'cause our founder, the founder of that agency, had his money in stock and stuff. And when that, when the towers were hit, his money was gone. And so, showed up to work. They had the chains on the door.
We didn't know he was going under, but he went under, two of the customers that I was working with at the time, one was a IT company and one was a cd, duplication and replication company. Again, now you know how old I am for sure. And so those became my first two, like independent real clients where I was doing work for them.
Like every week. The IT lady ended up teaching me how to code and so I jumped into web design right away. And then probably five or so years after that, I jumped into marketing
Max Cohen: Getting closer.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Went into the Google Diversity program to learn how to do marketing better. Part of that program, Google said, Hey, Tim we know [00:06:00] this company called HubSpot and so we're gonna pay for it, and HubSpot's gonna come and train you on this tool.
Max Cohen: Ah,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: we did that for six months or so. This is about 10, 10 to 12 years ago. When it was just marketing hub, right? And did that for about six months or so, got out of the program, HubSpot called and we were like, that's an expensive software. Really wasn't. But we thought it was at the time and we pushed it, but I think by the end of that year we bought in.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And so we've been in the program since.
Max Cohen: Nice. So you, so wait, was it like the customer train, like the HubSpot customer trainers that came out to you guys and did this, like who were, was it through another partner? Like how
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: no, it was HubSpot's employees at the time. I can't recall who specifically was in charge of teaching the software. If I dig through my emails, I have it, but I don't recall who. But no, it was legit. HubSpot team members, employees, they did it online, which was cool too.[00:07:00]
Max Cohen: Yep. What year was this? Because I started in 2015. Geez.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: this was till end of 2014. This 20 20 14 going into So 15 we,
Max Cohen: we were still going on site doing customer trainings and stuff like that. Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: No, I remember we wanted to do that after we went through the program, but we just never it at that point, they were like, come to Boston and we were like, ah, I don't think we're gonna pay to
Max Cohen: Yeah, we're good. That's where you guys started like HubSpot agency ish type work. And then is this the same? Same team you're with today, or is this where?
Max Cohen, hapily: Okay, so you,
Max Cohen: because you've, you
Max Cohen, hapily: started an agency, as I'm understanding with your wife.
Max Cohen: Is that what you were telling me?
Dex or,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: To an extent,
Max Cohen: yeah. Tell, yeah,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: that's a whole other side the, she has her own story how she got here. So and my wife we got married in oh four. I had my, I was a freelancer with an [00:08:00] LLC. I started that in 99, 2000, something like that. And so by the time we got married, I was already like doing it. Was barely working for anybody else. I think I quit my last full-time gig in 2006. I took a year off to just reset and went back to work for somebody at, in 2006. So by that point, I think she, after we got married, she, just, to be honest with you, she jumped in and was just like, I'm just you. You have papers everywhere.
I'm just gonna organize your papers. Is how she started off. The next thing I knew, she was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of your invoices for you 'cause you're a little slow moving on those, and so, I, I very much am a type A, but also like the artsy melancholy. So I have these two very weird sides and I ebb and flow, so I get hyper organized for a term.
And then I get very idealistic creative for a term too. And it really does shift in weird ways to me. But,
so she technically by trade is an rn.
That's her degree. She's been a nurse in practice for 22 [00:09:00] years, I guess at this point. She used to work full-time and on, like they worked three 12.
So on her days where she wasn't working her 12, she's helped, she'd helped me out.
Her role just consistently grew
into becoming like project manager.
She's amazing with people.
And so she started getting in front of people doing kind of account management, project management. The more she was around it, she started just naturally being good at certain things.
Her empathy I think does a lot, goes a long way towards a lot of the stuff that we do.
Max Cohen: I would imagine that being a registered nurse has an asinine amount of transferable skills to doing this type of work. Completely. And ironically, like just your ability to diagnose your bedside manner when things are going really bad. Your ability to listen to people, pay attention to detail, figure out, problem solving. Like I couldn't think of a better totally unrelated industry to come from, I think in line of work [00:10:00] to really be able to handle this ~shit ~
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: wild, right?
And then you in there like the crisis management stuff.
Max Cohen: Yeah, true.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And being,
Max Cohen: just sent out a billion emails. What do we do? Triage
Dax Miller: Is a.
Max Cohen: code, blue code,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: and she
exactly. Get the crash cart, let's go. And she's a natural in that space.
Like she,
she handles chaos very well.
So it's interesting. And by time, I don't know, I would say by 2010 she was like. Full-blown in it. And I think that's when she started, she went to what's called PRN.
So it's like you work like so many hours per month and like now she's down to working maybe a weekend a month, but she's
Max Cohen: So she's still in. She's still
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: to maintain her license, to maintain the skills. She has her own journey, like literally for ten-ish years, she hated nursing. We were we were at a point where we were like, Hey, maybe nursing, you need to get out of this 'cause it's not good for you.
It's literally not good for you emotionally like it is hurting [00:11:00] you. And so we were to the point where we were like, maybe this is it. She always wanted a mother baby, and and oh gosh, what delivery and so there was a job opening and I was like, just apply. And she was like, I don't have the experience.
They won't experience, they want you to have something. Just write a letter. She wrote a letter. She got the job. Like literally the manager called her the same day. And so because she found something that she loved, I. It was just like, look as bad as it was for those 10 years, there's no way. I'm like, you need to quit this.
So when you're ready, you step away. So she does it, she plays with baby. I always joke her and I'd say, you're going to, to the country club when she does go in. 'cause she's playing with babies and she's got a bunch of girlfriends that she works with that she likes working with. Yeah.
Max Cohen: You what? So what's it like building a HubSpot partner business with your spouse? Because I've seen people do this, like I've seen husband and wife teams, right? And like I always joke with my wife, I'm like, listen, as soon as you get sick of teaching. We can start a HubSpot agent, and she's just I don't wanna work behind a desk.
I'm [00:12:00] like, you work behind a desk. You literally do. It's just in a different way. She has this thing about working behind desks or whatever, she'd never do it. Even though she's a really good teacher. I'm like, you'd be really good at this stuff. But she's got this aversion to like working in corporate America or whatever it may be. But I'm constantly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And because I'm constantly pushing her to get her to think about it, but she doesn't want it. But what's that 'cause
Max Cohen, hapily: I've seen so many successful spouse teams, build HubSpot partners. What's the secret?
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: dude, it's interesting. It is interesting because I don't think, even though we know a lot of other couples that run agencies together I do feel like there's a smaller group within that group where I'm gonna say this and some of the other couples might wanna punch me in the face, but it's okay.
But I like my wife. My wife likes me. That's my best friend.
When we stop working, we go hang out,
Max Cohen, hapily: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: right? And so I think, I think for me, when I started the business, I sincerely wanted to,
I wanted to run a business with my family,
Like I wanted [00:13:00] whatever family members wanted to be involved at level they wanted to be.
Now reality tell you different story when you get to people's, like how they work and don't work, right? And
Max Cohen: want to know how you have a good marriage? If you could take a, if you could take a HubSpot business to partner or to find a partner, that means you've got a solid marriage.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Bro.
And I think our personalities compliment.
I really do. Like we, we've definitely melded. I've probably toned down a lot over the years, right? very passionate. I still can get my family's loud. I can still get very loud if I'm excited about something. don't even notice it happens, but the volume goes from like a two to like a 20 real fast.
And it is what it is. Her, she's more chill, laid back, but she's also, because of us being together, she's a bit more assertive and stuff like that. So I think it,
I think there's
like
that natural balance that marriage brings anyway to people or brings to people.
But I think really,
like
we lean on each other's skill sets
And we just, like you said, the things for her that transfer really well. We lean on those. And then the things that I do really well [00:14:00] and some of 'em I just do really well because I've been doing this for 25 years and I had to figure out a lot of crap.
And so we lean on that and we we overlap in a lot of ways.
We support each other in a lot of ways, but we really
try,
we try to stay in our lanes.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah. So I don't know if there's a secret. I always jokingly say we like each other, right?
Max Cohen: Dude, that's true. Me and my wife have a great marriage, and it's strictly because we're best friends. You know what I mean? She's like one of the only people in the world that can make me laugh. She's we genuinely enjoy hanging out with each other. And it's yeah, dude, if you're gonna work with someone 24 7, you're gonna have to have that,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: yeah.
Dax Miller: important, that's the important piece. You gotta have good and bad. You have to have the good, you have to have the bad, you have to be balanced, and you have to, they know you better than you know yourself,
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Dax Miller: biggest thing because looking in the mirror and understanding, you can't look in the mirror and see yourself like somebody
Max Cohen: gotta ask, do you guys ever have like product update date nights it's yo, let's go look at the, let's go watch it. Let's go put light some candles and watch some Kyle Jeffson videos or.
Dax Miller: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Nearly right. Nearly right. That's [00:15:00] hilarious when I tell her that she's gonna crack up. When we first got, when first got, now mind you, I've known. I've known my wife since I was 17, so she was 15, 14, 15, so we grew up together, grew up we went to the same high school. She was, I was a senior.
She was a freshman. We grew up in the same church. Not that we're in a small town or anything like that, but like we, we've known each other. She's literally one of the funniest people I know. But when we first started working together, and even before like it would be, I'd be talking about business, you'd be like, can we not talk about business at dinner?
Then after a while it was like, okay, cool, I've got this down. We're not gonna talk about business at dinner. And then I'm looking at her and I'm like, you're talking about business at dinner, right? And so you finally, I think you just finally come to a place where you're like, why are we trying to separate this?
This is our life. I know everybody talks work life balance, but work is part of life, right? Like you escape that. I get the need for rest and all that, but like we just had to own it. And just if you wanna talk about [00:16:00] it, we talk about it. This is what we're both doing. This is what we're both passionate about.
It. It honestly is counterintuitive for us to try and avoid it. so we will naturally flow from a conversation about a show we binged on a Saturday right into something business related. Like it just. It just all goes together now at this point. So you talking about candle at nights watching HubSpot or dinner and certifications,
Max Cohen: Yeah. Yep. Yep.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: that's a real thing.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Maybe not the candles, but close enough.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Dax Miller: So what this all circles back to is this concept of togetherness with people, right? And
Dax Miller, hapily: you've
you've done a great job of building something new inside the HubSpot ecosystem, which is the BOHAP.
Tell me where that came from, how that
as representation ridiculously matters. You took it into your own hands.
Dax Miller: So I would love to hear how that came about.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: yeah, so how honest can we be?
Dax Miller: You can be corporate America, man.
Dax Miller, hapily: You get to say everything you want.
Dax Miller: It's happening. This is the point.[00:17:00]
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: I've been in this space for 25 years.
Tom Jones: I've run a company for 25 years. I've done work for for Suzuki Subway and some other major brands as a freelancer designer web developer. And so I've, I walked into, I, you,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: as a business owner, you already feel like you're on an island, right? You already feel alone.
Nobody else thinks like you. Very few people think like you,
so you're always trying to gravitate towards people that. Get you right.
At least to some extent, I walked into enough meetings where they would hear me on a call, see my name on paper and thank God my parents gave me the name they gave me.
'Cause does help me, it does help me a lot because get into running sometimes. But I've walked in enough and heard and seen the expression of the Tim Jones I talked to three days ago on the phone. That same syndrome are you? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like walked into enough rooms like that.
And in, in this world of marketing, like [00:18:00] you get to double down on that because
there's not a lot of black and brown faces in marketing. There just isn't.
Particularly maybe even more so in the us and I get it. Some of that is, just the nature of the numbers playing out, right?
Like the population ratios there. So there is gonna naturally be that, but when you take that up a level into ownership, that number like reduces extremely so, right? And so. For me, it wasn't just that I was feeling alone here locally on an island because there aren't a lot of other people running an agency that get agency life and could talk around agency life that looked like me, had been through similar experiences and challenges
when I was going to HubSpot and at the time it was called Black and Inbound.
Love it. It's a dope spot, but candidly speaking, I'm in that group and nobody in there owns an agency. That I was aware of, right? So I'm having conversations or trying to have [00:19:00] conversations and people are saying things to me candidly that I down in me completely disagree with as an owner, right?
Because I have a different, I have a different vantage point of how these systems work. And so I just, honestly,
I'm at the conference feeling just like it's just me and my wife, right?
And I have other agency owners that I love and that I gravitate towards. But none that I knew had a shared life experience.
And even when you talk about some folks being in other countries, like I talked to some of my agency friends that are like in Africa or in the islands, and it's like they don't even know what it's like to be the minority in the space because they don't have to deal with that. And so they're hearing about the experience through us.
And so you get that.
And so what I did was I went to
I went to the head of Black and Inbound at the time
at HubSpot, the founder of Black and Inbound. And I asked,
I said, Hey. How many other black agency owners are there in the community of 6,000 agency partners?
And he was like, I don't know, HubSpot would like to know too.[00:20:00]
Went to a yeah. Devin. Yeah. So me and Devin were having that conversation. I went to another friend of mine who at the time was the number six employee Dan Tire. Amazing guy. And I asked him the same question and he was like, I don't know. Have you talked to Devin? And he was like, this is something that I think would be interesting to find out.
And so I went into the, one of the Slack communities for the partners and
I just started looking and searching and finding and asking around.
And there were other partners that we know and love that were like, you're absolutely right. This is something that needs to be sought. And they started introducing me to the people that they knew.
Turned out of about, I think at the time it was like 5,000 plus agencies.
It turned out there were 13.
Max Cohen, hapily: Geez.
Dax Miller: So it's not even sad, right? It's just, again, it's the path you lead. To see people. It's I feel like a similar story, like with skateboarding, right? When I was like in high school, some kid that shout out to Anthony had a skateboard in his basement. I was, and I used to watch the X Games when I would go to [00:21:00] sleep because it'd be on at one in the morning and I'd be math, that's kind of dope.
I like this a lot. Stepped on skateboarding, everything like was over. And you go through this path, right where it's early and in high school, like I'm the skateboarder, my, my family looking at me funny. Kids at school are like, what are you, that's not for you. I'm good at it so it matters. 10, you're good at it.
So they're like, they can't, they're like, well, I guess you fit Fast forward. It's commonplace everybody. Everything everywhere. And it's just early. Like we say, oh, we max, we always say on this podcast it's early. And
Tim, you set a track for people.
It's early because it's gonna grow and it's gonna grow.
But I see I see the thing, man. I'm a, not an agency owner, but I own software company inside the HubSpot ecosystem. Found for me, being stupid, right? The, again, that representation of seeing and seeking and finding resonates that to the universe. 'cause then more people are going to seek and find you AKA how I was [00:22:00] sought and found that day.
It was like, Juan, you that Tim? I'm like, no, because I'm on an island. I'm just by myself with the other 10. Talk about 13 app or 13 black owned agency partners at the time, how many app companies were there at HubSpot? Like eight. So there's your ratio. I. goes way down and it ends up and there probably won't I would say there probably won't be another unless we groom them or we raise that up and that's part of the duty, right?
So not to interject the story, but I feel that same, it's about that early path of where you end up going. Who influenced you early on That person that gave you that business card, like you are successful. This is a part of you. I'm going, you have provided value to my life. And
Dax Miller, hapily: that's what I believe
Dax Miller: like
Dax Miller, hapily: the black owned agency Partners
Dax Miller: group
Dax Miller, hapily: does, is show people that they are affecting others.
Dax Miller: And you should be the light, the leader, the example all the time. Yeah.
By being good at what you do.
And of course, [00:23:00]
as my dad said,
and Max, you're the minority on this call, which is hilarious. Always what you do. No one's gonna think about what you did right. And say that it was just you. I'm sure your parents probably said the same thing to you all the
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yep.
Dax Miller, hapily: You don't represent you at all. You represent everybody that looks like you.
So do something wrong, it's not gonna be like, Tim jacked up, man. He messed it up. Now he is gonna be like, people that look like Tim always mess up. And that is the thing that people of color
Max actually learning a bunch today.
Have
Max Cohen: y'all. I'm here for
Dax Miller, hapily: every single day that you don't represent yourself. You represent a group of people with everything you do, so you better open that door. You better say thank you. You better say yes sir, and no sir. Yes ma'am. No ma'am. Otherwise, you'll put a foul light on people that look like you.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: You're making
Dax Miller: a sad reality.
It's like a, I wouldn't say a sad reality, but it puts you in a,
Dax Miller, hapily: it makes you better, right? It makes [00:24:00] everyone better, ideally.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: 100%. And if you don't do that, it makes it difficult for the next person up. Because now they, they get to live through a. Those assumptions,
if you will. Those
Dax Miller: Well,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: negative.
Dax Miller: yeah. Now there's an assumption, which you talked to number six at HubSpot. I don't know how many of, they're like, I have no clue. Maybe there's a couple. They aren't making enough noise to do, so they're making zero noise. They existed, of course, they always existed. Were black skateboarders existing back in the day.
Were they making enough noise in the universe to do it? And eventually it became commonplace where you want to have a leader. You don't wanna say, I want a leader. You want to have people doing the right thing, doing well, so that they can rep fully represent.
Dax Miller, hapily: That's why representation matters. You want to see, is it possible for me to do this?
Tim did
tim did with wife, like it could be a couple's thing. Like it's possible that has to happen and you can't do that sitting [00:25:00] at your house in the corner by yourself. You have to seek the nodes to resonate bigger and bigger and bigger.
That's why that's such an important mission that you've taken on
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: I
Dax Miller: and that's what like, yo, I want to know.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah.
What's amazing is the response that we've gotten from folks at HubSpot. The shock one. The shock that it's only that many. And then just the, okay, how do we fix that? Has always been the question that kind of follows it up is how do we fix that?
Dan was completely just blown.
He was just like, there's no way. He was like, there's gotta be more. That's crazy. He was like, that's too low a number. And I, like I said before, I don't know if the number's too low. I think, like I said, when you play the numbers game. There, it's naturally gonna be a number that's lower significantly just due to population ratio, right?
The percentage of people that go into business ownership entrepreneurship is significantly lower. So there's that aspect, but
I do agree, like I do think we need to [00:26:00] increase it. I do think we need to blaze this path. Make it easier, make it commonplace as you're saying,
like that,
make it normal.
This should be normalcy.
I'll be candid, I started the group selfishly. I needed a space where I could feel sane,
right?
Where I didn't feel like if I shared a story, people might sympathize, they might nod their heads, but a lot of times they give you that look like that really happened or you just
Dax Miller: Yeah, you just over come. No one did that, that people aren't like.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah. Yeah. And it's no, I'm talking to you because you're not like that. I'm absolutely telling you because I know you're not like that. But but there are people out there who are like that. And so it just created, again,
it just selfishly just me having a space
and I think what it's grown into especially with the core group that's there is just a really safe space where you can bring whatever you need to the group
and there's no agenda.
Like we had a call yesterday. And we always prepare like an agenda of things to talk about Ashley and I, [00:27:00] but it's like a backup plan. So if nobody has something they wanna bring to the group, then we do a backup plan. One of the members had something they wanted to share that was going on, and so we dove into that a bit, right?
And it was really cool. And they were like, oh, I'm sorry for hijacking. It's nah, you're not hijacking anything. That's what this is for, right? That's what it's for me. That's what it's for you. That's what it's for Dax, right? That's what it's for.
Dax Miller: That's a, yeah, that's a big deal. What, how do you look to establish your presence at Inbound upcoming in San Francisco? Are you guys having
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Ooh,
Dax Miller: there? What can we expect? Because I'm gonna show up.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: we're gonna be there. So we are planning like our own. So last year we did our first kind of BOHAP inbound, like our own little inbound, pre inbound. This year we're gonna do one afterwards. We're gonna have two days afterwards that we're staying over and we're gonna collectively hang out.
Share successes, help each, like share insights, share wins, share [00:28:00] playbook, share anything we can to help the people in this group grow and learn and move forward. That's really what we're trying to do for one another. Rising tide raises all ships. That's the goal. It's an interesting question about making the presence known at Inbound.
Ashley and I have talked about making like BOHAP t-shirts and rocking those a little bit just to let people know, like it's a thing. But if I'm being honest, dude, I'm not like, remember I said I'm a type A and like a type C, right? So I, if you ask my parents, like they would have to drag me out of my force me like put the pencils and paper down, stop drawing and come out here and hang out with the family.
I am, I, even if you look at my social, I am just naturally not a person that likes to be in front of everybody, if I'm being honest. I can do it. I think I do it well, but I have to completely put on a different hat and get into, I'd love stand up. So I get into kind of my goofiness a little bit and I've learned how to do that over the years.
But if you ask me, I don't mean to be out front, so I don't pursue it typically. So that's a tough question for me, dude. I'm just being honest. It's a tough [00:29:00] question. Juan, who you mentioned earlier who introduced us, he said something about, us leading. And I was like, dude, like that's not at all my intentions here.
I just needed a circle that I can go into when I needed some sanity. And so I don't look at it as I get it. Like I get it because yes, I did. If by definition I took the lead and pulled everybody into a room, so I get that. But I don't know, man. I'm, I.
It's a group effort.
The people in this group are amazing.
They're brilliant.
I'm not gonna sit here and be like, I'm the smartest of the group. I don't believe that at all.
There's some brilliant minds in this group.
And I think collectively we're just better.
And so that's how I'm gonna always probably lean on it and push on it. Now am I a type A and if I see like leadership is lacking, will I step into that space?
Absolutely. I will step in and organize and run a thing and push it forward, but I really,
my hope is that the people will be seen and that others will connect to who they relate to most. That's my hope, right? Because I think [00:30:00] everybody has something to bring. Everybody has something personality wise.
We're from different parts of the country, different parts of the world. We got people coming in from Africa and Trinidad, Tobago as well, that are part of the group. We have a young lady that's from London that's part of the group, right? Everybody here in the States is from all parts of the states.
I think everybody has a different flavor
and just like we go out to eat, everybody don't eat steak, right? I love it, if that's not your thing, it's not your thing.
Dax Miller: Yeah, it's, it. HubSpot does a great job at is the community aspect and that's, one of the reasons why we brought you on the podcast because this was built within a bigger place. And again, with HubSpot and with the communities and all the different communities, they're cre. They're creating that Now.
There's the spot and there is a true like intentionality with. Getting people from all over. It's a global organization. It's like people are everywhere, people, so they can't like exclude that. But I always kinda [00:31:00] shout it out to be, you could tell. And this is again, this is one of those, this is one of those things that me and Ted will get.
You can see when people are trying, right? They're like, HubSpot's trying, they're trying to put it out. They're like, you know what? How about we don't just have everyone look the same little piece of. The CEO down, right? It's interesting when you see that, but there's this muting that you have to say, or you have to experience because you don't wanna be like, oh man.
They're like, you can't say that they're ex they're really trying to bring people of color in. To the point where it's like overdone, right? Like it's not like McDonald's style, right? Where it's like a negative like thing. But how do you, I would say, how do you react when you see the intentionality?
Do you take it as a, oh man, like that's weakening or is that empowering?
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: I actually love it. So, and I'll bring this up in [00:32:00] context so you get it's probably the best way that I know how to explain it. So, the George Floyd thing went down and. There were a handful of friends who didn't look like me, that called me Dan Tire, being one of the first people that picked up the phone to check on me.
And you see something like that and it's like didn't do anything wrong on the call. So I don't wanna give the impression, but like when you see people do that, I think as the people of color, we need to extend grace for the people trying. And I think there's something to that. So when that was going on, what I tried to be.
What I tried to be during that time was after I got through my emotions in the situation and processed it for myself, what I tried to be was a safe space for people to ask stupid, dumb, ignorant, and even sometimes racist questions, right? Because we, when people are trying, we need to give them room to make mistakes.
If we don't give them room to make mistakes, they're gonna pack it up and go home, right? I like if you attack them, if you. React in a way [00:33:00] that makes them feel like they cannot, like they're gonna stop. It's just, it's the same, it's the same mental psyche as when you plug something into an outlet you shouldn't plug in, we're not gonna do that again.
Like you, you learn that behavior of when I did that. It was damaging, so don't do it twice. It's the same thing with this, and culture is that way across the board. I bring up the George Floyd thing because I think everybody can understand the communications that were happening, but the reality is that happens culturally everywhere, across all cultures.
It's just people don't tend to extend the grace and they don't tend to, as the people in the culture. Sometimes I think people go, oh, we're right, but who's to say we're, where'd the rule book from Cul for culture come from? As to how we do things. And so I grew up in a high school where we were nearly, I feel and if I check the numbers, I feel like this is pretty accurate.
It was like 30% black, 30% white, and 30% Asian, mostly Filipino. If you went over to your Filipino friend's house, you had to take your [00:34:00] shoes off in the garage. Can't bring, can't wear 'em in the house. Now me, the household I grew up in is you obey the rules of the house you're in. So I don't question this. If I want to go inside and hang out with my friends, I have to take my shoes off so I know I'm going over their house and me wear socks because I don't want my feet out and people dragging my feet or something crazy.
So you just follow the rules. But you would have some friends who'd be like, I don't understand why I gotta take my shoes off. Well, one, it's their house. The same thing as if you put your feet on the table. In my dad's house, he's going to. You're gonna find out really fast. You don't the feet on his table.
He paid for that. He worked hard for it. With the Asian culture in this, I've made assumptions, they can happily correct me if I'm wrong, but I go, well, one, I think it's nasty to sit and lay in a space. I. Where someone's been walking around in their yard where maybe they've had dogs and other matter in that yard, and now you're tracking that around for kids to roll around and play on.
I think this is just a cultural thing that they're aware of and they go, don't bring unclean things into the house. Who's to say [00:35:00] they're wrong? Who's to say they're right. It's a cultural thing that you just need to sit back, give room and grace for on sides, right? Because there are people coming into your culture that don't understand it, and you're in your culture and you need to give them that grace and they need to come in with an open mind that just because I grew up this way doesn't make me right.
That, to me, for me personally, that's the American condition. That's really what we struggle with our tension here. It's, we're not willing to say. Maybe we're not. Maybe our way is not the best way. Maybe our, it's not even about best. Maybe it's not the only way. Maybe there's a few ways to get there.
And then just extending that grace.
Dax Miller: And that is an American thing. So that's why HubSpot can, tote the American flag. 'cause it's America. And especially when you live in a place. Let's say we live in a place like Texas where you live in Texas or where you don't live in Texas. Excuse me. You have assumptions of Texas. When you live in Texas.
You're like, this is America. I haven't seen anybody [00:36:00] not of color in 50 minutes. It's not just people like me, it's people of everywhere. There's a lot of Indian culture, there's a lot of Asian culture. There's every single thing in Texas that you would imagine is not in Texas for whatever reason.
Just the condition of a cultural thing.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah.
Dax Miller: That culture is something that you have observed externally. Like when I lived in Chicago, I thought a certain way about Texas because that's all I've observed.
Max Cohen: Yeah,
Dax Miller: told me everything.
Max Cohen: I'm a liberal, I'm a liberal cuck from Massachusetts, so I have very specific views of what I think Texas is, even though I've been there by. Bunch of times.
Dax Miller: right. But when you live in Texas, you're like, oh, they, this is completely wrong. Everything is wrong. That was taught. And when you, to bring it back to the concept of when in a large organization is attempting to acknowledge different cultures, right? Not just. Of course, by default everybody's cool, but truly acknowledge.
Like the email from in the group, the picture that they sent out about inbound, it was like Juan and I've don't if he was your wife, but they were in the.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: There were like [00:37:00] three emails that went out with people from BOHAP. There's 11 of us in the slack, 12 of us in the Slack. And so you had Juan, you had Des and then you had Hannah. Those three were in emails from HubSpot.
Dax Miller: Multiple emails. So Max, you would imagine you're like, are they trying to show extra representation? Yes. Yes they are. They have a completely, it's like all of us were in all the emails, we.
Max Cohen: Yeah, man, trust me, I was in people operations when I was running new hire training there, so I saw the full scale, effort that they were putting in back then,
Dax Miller: But it's like this, it's this effort, right? You're like, are you, what? What are you trying to hive? There's a lot of ways to swallow that,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah.
Dax Miller: overanalyze it to the moon.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Well see.
Dax Miller: just trying to like cra? Are you just trying to show because you know we're unrepresented. Are you like, do I need help?
I don't need help. It's like the wheelchair trying to hold the door. Like I don't need help. I've been doing this my whole life. I've been running these wheels like forever. Like I don't need help. I don't need you. And you can look at it that way. Or you can take the grace and be like, we [00:38:00] see you. That's cool.
Will you show us? We there we're laughing like we appreciate that. There's a lot of ways to take that as companies look to. Explore what the world like, take a true American, what the world looks like, and put that into their external marketing and their external face and what does HubSpot look like?
Represent.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: It. It's the line between they get it or they don't. Meaning either you're the token or they love you. That's really what it plays out and you can fall on either side of that, like you said.
I think with HubSpot, the thing that I've loved is
as I've told this story, and I've only started talking about it within the last inbound is when I was really let me go.
Connect with some of the execs and share this little story within the community. And the response was like, let's, when we get outta inbound, let's get on the call. Let's meet, we gotta talk about this more.
I've had multiple calls with different execs in the partner community
and a product even where it's just Hey, we need to dig back into that.
I've been on so when [00:39:00] they did the product launch earlier this year, the announcements one of 'em saw me in the thread and was like, Hey, we need to get on a call after this. So it's not for me.
From what I'm seeing, it's a sincere, we're trying to figure this out.
Yes, we're trying to help, but we're trying to help because we think there's an imbalance here that needs to be fixed.
We think there's, and I don't wanna say an injustice 'cause it's not an injustice, but we do think there's something here. That needs to be like, we need to ba like this needs to be more balanced.
This is out of balance and it needs to be more balanced. There's not enough of you guys in the community.
And so how do we solve that? How do we support what you're already doing? And those types of conversations. So it's good in that,
what I said before
they're trying, so whether they get it right or wrong is not the point. They're engaging in the conversation.
You give grace for things that you feel a certain way about.
And I always say you have a right to feel however you want. It doesn't mean that your feelings are right. You can feel completely away about something and be 100% [00:40:00] wrong, right? That's a thing. And I say that as a, I technically I would be considered a conservative Christian, and that's cool, whatever.
I don't think I'm quite as conservative as some people think I am, but I think it's just because, well, that's a different conversation, but I actually pay attention to what's in the book. And that's what I actually live by. But to, to their point and what they're trying to do is. If they're engaging and they're trying to solve the problem, I wanna support them in that they're not.
And I think that's to your point of like it becoming like that tokenism kind of thing.
The thing that I sometimes pay attention to is, are they trying to take it over? And they're not trying to take it over. They're trying to figure out how do we help, right? Are there things, are there resources we have internally that we can hand you that support what you're doing externally?
Are there ways that we can set up spaces for your external group to communicate with our internal group better? Those are the conversations that we've been having and to me that's a huge difference.
It's [00:41:00] very. It's very, I don't, how do I say this word? It's very colonic, colonizing you, whatever that word is, to see a people of color doing the thing and you as a business go, oh, we're gonna take that.
We're to claim it, and then we're gonna do it the way we think we should be done. Oh, that's cringe. That's real cringe. I'm like, Ugh.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah, I gotta pull back from that, right? I gotta take my ball and go find another park to play in. We'll find another court. This isn't the one, right?
But that's not what HubSpot is doing. They're actually asking like how do we fit what you're doing? And even upfront being like, we're not saying assimilate, we're not saying, get rid of the space you're in and move everything over here. We're saying, can we create spaces that make it easier for your group?
To engage in conversations with us, right? And make it easier for your group to connect and find more people that fit your group. What can we utilize in our toolbox to help make this easier for you? [00:42:00] That for me, that's a. That's golden. That shows me like you're actually thinking about us.
And you're not trying to, it's not a branding thing, as we've just seen with the past election where everybody was like, oh, we're not doing the DEI thing. We could fire all those black executives. Now you guys are out, right? We needed you to last four years, but we're good now. We're past that PR stunt.
And they're not doing that. That's not what they're doing. And
so for me with HubSpot specifically.
Like you asked early on about one of the things I'm excited about,
that's, honestly,
that's
one of the things I'm really excited about is just where this conversation is gonna continue to go.
And then meeting more people in the space that look like us. I know that sounds really selfish to maybe everybody who's not in the minority group, but if you've ever, if you've ever, we have a place here locally called Feather and Finn. It's in the heart of black downtown Norfolk in Virginia. And if you are a white person and you walk in that space, I [00:43:00] promise you that place will freeze.
Like you're a black person in the forties walking into a place you shouldn't be in. It's the only it's one of those things where, you know, where you've walked into a space where nobody looks like you. You know what that feels like. And so that's what we're trying to balance a little bit, is just to it's not even a thing where it's like.
Everybody else isn't cool. Everybody else is cool, but I don't max, I don't know if you've ever walked into a space that you should be in and you're invisible, right? Meaning no one speaks, no one says hello. You walk up to talk to people and they act like you didn't walk up to say hello. I've actually been the keynote somewhere where they didn't know I was a keynote and nobody was friendly until after I got off the stage.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: It's stuff like that where you're like, I just need some faces I can look at that make me feel stronger in that moment. And so that's the whole vibe and I appreciate that they understand that [00:44:00] enough to support it and get behind it a bit and try and figure out how they can help.
And I think that's something everybody needs, right? Like I don't think it's, I like it's a minority thing because we're the minority, but if it were the other way, if you were in. Nigeria as a minority, I think you'd need the same thing.
Dax Miller: This is profound. It's it's
Max Cohen: Can
Dax Miller: bring.
Max Cohen: I ask you guys a question?
What? Because I, I don't ~fucking~ know, right? got, I've got. I've got a voice in this HubSpot space, right? I've made a name for myself, making dumb ass videos and memes and getting people to giggle about HubSpot and ~shit~ like that. What can someone like me do to advance this or help this or be a positive?
Anything in all of this because I topics like this, it's just, I get [00:45:00] so analysis paralysis over all of it that I just end up doing nothing. And I just don't know the answer, man. And I wanna know,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: real. It's very real. I'll share with you some things that I've shared with others and I'll even pull the curtain back a little bit on some of the things that I've said. There are conversations, there are things that I said that are honestly for people that look like me.
When I say, you're the person in the culture and you want other people to correct their behavior regarding your community and your culture, you need to extend them. Grace, I'm talking to black folks. You can't put walls up and get attitudes with people when they're trying to figure this crap out. You have to openly let them in and give them room to say, like I said, potentially some racist stuff and just tell 'em, Hey, dude, that's racist, and here's why it is. Doesn't mean we're gonna end the conversation. Don't get hung up on that, right? Like [00:46:00] it's, there's this thing like every, as soon as you throw that word out there, people want to no.
Not that. No. I'll be anything but that. Call me a murderer, but that I will not be. Because that's evil, dude. It's always murderer. But it's look, there are all kinds of things we do that are just wrong, but we just gotta give people room and grace in that space as folks, right?
I think the other side of this is. Come with your questions, but come with an open mind. Don't try and defend. Don't try and be judgy, but the reality is the reality, and here's the real stuff. Here's the real stuff. The question you just asked is, what do I do? How do I fix it? The simple answer most people don't like if you ask me, it's not our problem to solve as a black person.
I didn't make white people hate me or any other culture hate me. I can't tell you how to fix that. I.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Dax Miller: And I take the other, I take the other, and I say, you do nothing.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: yeah.[00:47:00]
Dax Miller: the more you talk and the more you bring up. Is more further deepening, whatever's not there, right? You end up with this negative, like a negative times, a negative void where nothing times, nothing ends up with this huge positive and you're like, well, there wasn't even anything to talk about, right?
I think one of, I forgot who said, it was like, Hey, just stop talking about race because we literally all are the same thing all day. So there's nothing to fix if they, if you don't come with a hammer and a tool and start messing with stuff, there's nothing to fix.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And that's factual, right? Like the end, at the end of the day, this race thing was made up.
Dax Miller: Made
Max Cohen: True.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: made up from the beginning. Now the end point I'll say is if you really feel like I gotta do something, go talk to the people that look like you and explain to them why it's wrong.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: That's really,
Dax Miller: you experienced that in your quote world, which was, it's not a world, but you get what I'm saying. That's the thing where you see you talking to anybody like us. They're gonna be like, yeah dude, it's fine. But if [00:48:00] you have that conversation, there's gonna be more defense. When Max talks to John, like the other Tim Jones and is he's max, what the hell are you talking about?
Who do you think you are? What da, that, that's gonna happen? That's 'cause that happens in our community. We're like, yo, that dude didn't mean, what do you, why are you bringing this blue eyed white face dude in rap? Why would you do that, Dr. Dre? That's not anything for you. That's not, he doesn't look like you, you can't bring him in case in point.
Max Cohen: Yeah.
Dax Miller: that inner, that amongst groups are the same. Having to. I wouldn't say defend, but explain why they are wrong. That's where there's the wrong right is gonna happen. Not like in a conversation like this, because we're like, whatcha talking about there's nothing wrong here.
We're at our house, we're all chilling, we know each other. We're open to knowing more about each other and that whole kind of concept, man. So Tim. Max. This is the type of forum and this is the type of conversation that we love, right? This is something people are learning, people are exploring, and it's a side that [00:49:00] isn't talked about.
No one's gonna put out a paper about, did you guys see that? There's only black people in the last inbound emails. Why? And it's like a group of 13 out of 10 trillion people. There's 13 people that were in the email.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah.
Dax Miller: Super funny. But Tim, we like to kick it off and end something with a little couple three questions.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yep.
Dax Miller: First question, Tim, what's the last cartoon you watched?
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Oh. Oh gosh, what was the last one? I'm trying to think of the name of this one. I'm a cartoon buff, so anime and stuff is my thing. The last one I can remember the title of, I just watched the last Sylvania that dropped not too long ago on Netflix.
Dax Miller: seen the.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Oh, dude, they're good. There's two different series.
So they dropped the first series and I think it went three or four seasons and they just dropped the second one. I think that went two seasons, something like that.
Dax Miller: Got it. Now the ultimate question,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Devil may cry. That's actually the last one I
Dax Miller: there's a devil may cry like anime.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: There was one years ago. They just dropped a new one.
Dax Miller: That [00:50:00] makes sense. That game was super good with the gun sword combos. So the last video game you played,
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Ooh,
Dax Miller: is farming.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah you're hitting me. So, I don't play games like I used to. I used to be killer at like tech and grand. A live and Madden, like those were my games. Oh. And obviously I was like a 70 kill on Call of Duty, like 70 average on Call of Duty. The game that I played more recently, I used to play fight night because I think it's a good way to
Dax Miller: That's a really good game.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And bro, five minutes I can get on and off it just like that. If I had a rough meaning, let me go pound on Mike Tyson for a little while. Knock his tail out. You. It was really good. Now I'm doing, what is it? The MMA joint that they did that EA sports did?
Dax Miller: That sounds I.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: think.
Max Cohen: Oh, USC.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Yeah. The UFC joint.
Max Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Jones: Yeah. Literally played it last night.
Dax Miller: So favorite new HubSpot feature, [00:51:00] not ai.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: Not a I favorite new HubSpot speech. Dude, I said it earlier. I am just glad they updated the navigation by hub.
Max Cohen: Yes, dude. Yes. Literally, bro, I, when they first came out with that new ~shit,~ I literally went to them and rebuilt the entire NI was like, this is what you need to do. And it's basically what they ended up doing minus like a couple of things. Like I still think they, the only thing that sucks about the new one is that they basically made the same mistake of the library and now put it under CRM.
And what they really need is like a productivity tab with all the tools that are shared across, service and sales. And then it would be perfect.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: And what's funny
Max Cohen: close. It's
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: It's so close. What's hilarious though is I got so used to the last one, I'm still lost.
Max Cohen: Yeah. Oh yeah, dude.
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: I'm going back, I'm going looking for library and I'm like, oh, the meanings are now in sales.
Max Cohen: Also hate the little funnel icon for the sales tab. It just doesn't, I [00:52:00] just don't get it. Make it a dollar sign, dude. Don't overthink it, but yeah.
Dax Miller: So funny. Well, appreciate having from Eternal Works. It's been a pleasure, been a blessing, and let's keep Positiv.
Max Cohen: Thank
Tim Jones, Eternal Works: absolutely. Guys, thank you so much for having me.
Max Cohen: Appreciate it, man.