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Future of XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:20:01
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. Today we are speaking with Nadine Clarke about the future of digitality. We will talk about what digitality means, but first and foremost, Nadine, welcome to the Future of XYZ.
00:00:20:03 - 00:00:22:13
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.
00:00:22:15 - 00:00:46:24
Speaker 1
Well, we met you and your one of your partners at Tangent, which is a London based digital product agency. You came and spoke at the iF Design first ever Trend Conference last year in Berlin on a topic that was related to digitality and we kind of hit it off and I'm totally fascinated with this topic.
00:00:47:00 - 00:01:18:09
Speaker 1
You've been doing this for over a decade. You got your master's in journalism and were a journalist at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for a long time before you entered this world, but most recently you were named to the top 100 list of the British Interactive Media Association. So obviously, your pivot has gone a long way. Let's just first and foremost, as we always do with all of your background and all of your passion and expertise, talk about defining today's topic.
00:01:18:11 - 00:01:24:24
Speaker 1
So how in the context of this conversation do we define digitality?
00:01:25:01 - 00:01:50:16
Speaker 2
I mean, even the word digitality sounds a bit odd to start with, but I guess how I define digitality is really about for me, it's a concept, right, of how we live, of how we work, of how we create value, and where kind of digital technology isn't just a tool, it's actually part of the fabric of all of our experiences.
00:01:50:18 - 00:02:15:23
Speaker 2
Like we just see digital everywhere now. You can't get away from it. You know, people go on holiday and they can't get away from it. And so digital has really kind of transformed the way that, you know, customer experiences happen for brands, for people, how people go through their journeys of life, but also has fundamentally changed the way that people behave as well.
00:02:15:23 - 00:02:40:09
Speaker 2
So, you know, all of this means lots of data, lots of information around how we kind of interact with the world. And it also means that, you know, we're thinking about what's happening next. What are those emerging technologies that will come into play within our lives? So that's how I would define digitality It feels like it's such a big word and it could mean so much more than that.
00:02:40:09 - 00:02:51:21
Speaker 2
But I think from the position where I sit as strategy partner at a digital agency, I look at very much from a customer lens, a human kind of behavior lens.
00:02:51:23 - 00:03:24:03
Speaker 1
It's really interesting because you're correct. I mean, there's so many ways that come into this and digital kind of has, I mean, taken over everything in our lives today in many ways. Let's just pause for a second and look at the impact of this let's call it transformation into digitality What do you see as I mean, you've given a couple of examples in your intro, but like, what do you see as the impact of this transformation, first and foremost on human society but also on the planet?
00:03:24:05 - 00:03:50:08
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, I would maybe take a bet that one of the first three things that you did this morning when you woke up is probably check your phone. And, you know, that is kind of what I mean by behavior, right? Like, that's one of those first things. It's become quite instinctual. We don't even think about digital in that way anymore because it is just part of our lives and how we even have this conversation right now.
00:03:50:09 - 00:04:13:16
Speaker 2
So I think from a society personal kind of point of view, it's become so intertwined with everything we do that we don't even see a difference between these kind of very offline human connections and how we interact like this. As you stated at the beginning, like I met you a couple of months ago in person, and we've just been having this relationship online ever since.
00:04:13:16 - 00:04:35:22
Speaker 2
Right. And so that's kind of where I think a lot of people are when it comes to digitality. And it's like bringing it back to in-person is also that mix that people are trying to kind of get to. I think from, I guess other bigger thoughts around the environment, which is one of the things that we were talking about mostly a couple of months ago.
00:04:35:24 - 00:05:04:19
Speaker 2
You know, the impact of digital has had a huge influence on energy consumption, on carbon footprints, and we often don't think about it in that way because unlike seeing chimneys of smoke kind of coming out, every time you're picking up your phone, you're looking at something. There isn't that little puff of smoke coming out of it. So it's really kind of easy to to think that that is not kind of an issue and it comes into cycles.
00:05:04:19 - 00:05:28:19
Speaker 2
People talk about it. I think when we talk about lots of emerging technologies like AI or virtual reality or metaverse, all of these things usually are associated with, my God, like this is taking so much energy, the carbon footprint of the use of AI, there's all these huge like massive statistics like, three questions is the equivalent of a gallon of water.
00:05:28:20 - 00:05:56:19
Speaker 2
And and I mean, don't quote me on that exact kind of statistic, but it's that type of thing, right? And when people think about it, they're conscious of what it means, but it doesn't mean that they're necessarily changing the behavior for it. And it doesn't mean that they're ready to kind of take action to see what they could do, not only from a personal level, but also from a corporate level, etc.
00:05:57:14 - 00:06:27:23
Speaker 1
So, well, let’s talk about that, because one of the exciting things that came out of the conversation that we ended up having at that cafe near the river randomly in Berlin is that we're going to be speaking together at South by Southwest in Austin this March, March 2025, about digital design for a circular future. And of course, we're not going to give away a lot of that presentation right now, but perhaps we can dive into some of the reasons why the topic is so important to both of us.
00:06:27:23 - 00:07:00:23
Speaker 1
And I think you just are alluding to it, which is like, is there anything related to improving design, whether we're talking digital hardware or digital software, which is a little bit over repetitive thing, digital software, but digital hardware and software for the future that listeners should be thinking about? And I guess I'm thinking in terms of like the twofold of like as individuals/consumers and as business leaders/companies.
00:07:01:00 - 00:07:12:12
Speaker 1
I mean, and I guess I'll start with like specifically as individuals, what actions might we be able to take to mitigate the impact of this new digital life that we have?
00:07:12:14 - 00:07:38:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I mean, on an individual basis, a lot of people are talking about being too attached to screens, right? I'm just getting into these doom scrolls. Scrolled. Yeah. Just like just scrolling for the sake of scrolling and watching video after video and all of that is, has an impact. And I think on a personal level, I think it's people taking conscious of their own behaviors.
00:07:38:07 - 00:08:00:01
Speaker 2
And and, you know, we talk about kids being too too much on tablets and mobile phones. But the reality is that everybody probably is every time I get on a train, for instance, and I look up and I see one person actually reading a book, you know, it's really surprising because everybody else is just staring at a screen and none of that is new.
00:08:00:02 - 00:08:25:00
Speaker 2
Right? But I think on a personal level, people could make more kind of conscious decisions about their usage for start. And then if you think about more of the hardware, like these things just get replaced every two or three years, right. And I don't know about you, but unfortunately, I'm also one of those people who's got a drawer full of old mobile phones that are not actually kind of doing anything.
00:08:25:00 - 00:08:44:10
Speaker 2
And these things are built to to not last. And we're creating products as well that from a software point of view that can’t actually cater for all of these old devices, for all of these old operating systems, because it is costly to be able to maintain these things.
00:08:44:12 - 00:08:55:00
Speaker 1
And that's the thing in digital design is like we want the newest. I mean, tech more than anything is like the latest, the greatest, you know, even more so than like, say, fashion, which has always been that way also.
00:08:55:02 - 00:09:15:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. And it just takes more and more. It takes more data. You need more processing speed. So you need to upgrade and upgrade and upgrade. And then we end up in these cycles of just kind of yeah, of, of not thinking about the impact of that. So I think that's from an individual point of view, there's a consciousness of what you're actually doing with digital.
00:09:15:04 - 00:09:36:00
Speaker 2
But then also how are you using tools to help you with that? I mean we're seeing so many behaviors changing with digital all the time. Again, I don't know about you, but know I probably use A.I. like every single day and it's not something I would have said six months ago. I would probably dabbling into it doing stuff.
00:09:36:00 - 00:09:47:11
Speaker 2
But now I really see this as like a proper assistant, you know, and an agent that's kind of working for me. And that has an impact, right? And I am conscious of that.
00:09:47:13 - 00:09:51:17
Speaker 1
And when you say it has an impact, you're referring to the the carbon footprint of that.
00:09:51:20 - 00:10:14:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. But again, it's like making sure that you're using it for the right reasons, that you're not kind of just depending on it constantly and not creating an attachment to it in any way that we have these other attachments across a lot of other digital products. So yeah, from a personal point of view, I think that's what I would kind of even start saying.
00:10:14:09 - 00:10:39:15
Speaker 2
I think more from a business perhaps corporate level, I think most businesses these days have to report on ESG. You know, what are they doing? They have to kind of publish something that makes it that shows the efforts that they're putting in. And I think most businesses are not thinking about the digital impact. They're thinking about their infrastructure.
00:10:39:15 - 00:11:01:17
Speaker 2
They're thinking about the hardware of their business, right. But they're not thinking about the use of digital in their business. And for a lot of businesses, that will be huge. And particularly e-commerce businesses, for instance. So I think the first thing that they can do is even start measuring and tracking, you know, what that actual footprint looks like for them.
00:11:01:19 - 00:11:26:14
Speaker 2
And then think about, okay, what does that mean? How do I compare to others? How do I change what I have here to try to optimize, minimize my carbon footprint here? But again, it is it's an interesting one because people don't see it, if you talk to CEOs or, you know, Chief Information Officers, they're starting to be questioned on that.
00:11:26:14 - 00:11:59:13
Speaker 2
And they're probably bringing it up to the rest of their business. But it's not something that people are really kind of conscious of. A funny story. I had a workshop yesterday with a client and one of the questions I asked them was for a new digital product and it's a global business. And I asked them, you know, what is your appetite to create a digital product that will kind of try to push the boundaries of sustainability?
00:11:59:15 - 00:12:20:17
Speaker 2
How much are you kind of willing to think about sustainability in the way that we design and build this product for you? And one of the questions I got was, well, you know, what's the cost associated to that? And obviously for a business that's how they are thinking. They are thinking about the ROI, the cost of these things.
00:12:20:17 - 00:12:46:00
Speaker 2
But there is a cost of not doing something. And that is actually to the planet. So, yeah, so it's a it's a tricky one because putting the effort, putting the time, putting the resources to think about how do we create products that can minimize that is difficult. Right. And you need to come at it at different ways in different ways.
00:12:46:02 - 00:13:01:08
Speaker 2
But we know what the true kind of outcome means. So yeah, and I think retrofitting these things later on will just be even more difficult. So, yeah, interesting kind of challenge that we're seeing with clients today.
00:13:01:10 - 00:13:31:24
Speaker 1
It is. And I mean, there are a couple of things. I mean, first and foremost, I want to talk about like the regulatory environment, because you mentioned ESG reporting. I mean, the truth is that we don't have any global standards at this point, to my knowledge, in any of this. I mean, I'm not going to get into my own personal take on how behind I feel like lawmakers certainly in the U.S., but kind of everywhere seem to be and how they're kowtow to these giant corporations and, you know, tech corporations and conglomerates.
00:13:32:01 - 00:13:47:03
Speaker 1
But like, is there any policy or regulatory guidance as concerns the environmental or social impact of digitality that you guys are aware of? Either that exists or is coming down the pipeline?
00:13:47:05 - 00:14:18:15
Speaker 2
I mean, again, I don't think if there's not, I've not seen something that is, I really think there's no universal policy around this. I think it all starts with even how do you measure your carbon footprint. There is no kind of standardization of that. So I think that also makes it quite difficult. I think there are frameworks we're hearing a lot of things around, like people thinking about how their digital footprint is impacting the environment, how they need to report into it.
00:14:18:15 - 00:14:51:24
Speaker 2
But it's often wrapped up into like wider programs. It's just a part of something else, you know. It's not just kind of looking at it independently. And so it's not just kind of always just digital. So the lack of standardized measurement makes it really difficult. The lack of targets, you know. If people don't understand where they stand, where they are today, what others are doing, to which level they need to try to get to, it's very difficult to know whether you're doing good or bad, and then there's no penalties for doing bad.
00:14:52:01 - 00:15:16:06
Speaker 1
That's, I mean, that's really one of the things here that I think is really interesting. I mean, you mentioned it and I didn't mean to cut you off, but I think one of the things that I'm you know, when we think about what individuals can do, well, we have an education gap, right? As you said, it's not like, you know, kids learn how to turn on and off the light switch or I grew up in Southern California where there was always a water crisis, you know, So you turned off the water, you know, like when you were brushing your teeth, like these are things that you see.
00:15:16:06 - 00:15:39:03
Speaker 1
But as you said, like when you when you download the latest app, for instance, there isn't like a puff of smoke that comes out of your phone that lets you know, like, hey, by the way, you just killed like, you know, a thousand trees in the Amazon, right? I mean, and it would be and so measurement is important, but like we're just talking basic education and this is at the individual level, but this is also at certainly at a corporate level.
00:15:39:05 - 00:16:03:19
Speaker 1
And, you know, my premise is, you know, especially my with my work at iF Design is like, you know, design is the foundation for everything, whether it's products or platforms or places or policies. And I mean, I wonder what you're seeing as you know, you're in a design agency, right, as a strategy partner, working with big companies like SAP and stuff on, you know, kind of digital transformations and whatnot.
00:16:03:21 - 00:16:14:08
Speaker 1
What are we seeing that's going to bring this level of education to the fore? Or is it really just like, let's call it grassroots for lack of a better term?
00:16:14:10 - 00:16:36:04
Speaker 2
I think things that I can think about immediately is like one just talking about it, right? Just already talking about it and talking about it to as many people as we can. So people are starting to take conscious of it. I think the other point that I think it will become necessary is how we talk about it and how we translate it into people's lives.
00:16:36:04 - 00:16:57:10
Speaker 2
And again, if I go back to this point of, you know, customer experience, user experience is you need to make it relatable to people. Like and if you can't do that, it makes it really difficult. So when people tell me, you know, this will save you point five grams of CO2, I don't actually know what that means. Like, what does that look like?
00:16:57:10 - 00:17:23:22
Speaker 2
You need to be able to ground it into things that people can understand tangibly. And I think when people or when the community start thinking about how do we get this message across, how do we market it in a way that makes people realize the impact of what is happening from a digital point of view? I think then people will really understand and maybe that's when you're going to start seeing a behavioral change.
00:17:23:22 - 00:17:43:18
Speaker 2
But at the moment a lot of this just seems very, it's just not tangible. You don't see it, you don’t feel it. Yeah, exactly. Yet you use more all the time, right? So it's how do we bridge that gap, basically. And I think that will help with the education and the message.
00:17:43:20 - 00:18:14:15
Speaker 1
So I mean I'm thinking about, I mean, there's so many, always with these conversations, so many threads to pull at. But, I mean, UX, if we will, user experience design is kind of like the wrap for me on everything that is digital these days, right? It's the hardware, it's the software, it's the interactions of them in the hybrid, it's the interactions of them on their own, etc., like, I know that's not the technical definition, but that's how I see user experience.
00:18:14:15 - 00:18:19:13
Speaker 1
It's really the design of our digitality as it impacts.
00:18:19:13 - 00:18:20:24
Speaker 2
People call it, omnichannel, right?
00:18:21:02 - 00:18:43:22
Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. If we go back to like old school marketing, Right. It's exactly that. It's this all encompassing thing and it's all the touch points. I mean, you talked before about like designing for obsolescence, like our phones, right? Like they're supposed to actually disappear, like, there's no repairability in them. There is no recyclability or very, very little. And obviously there's some things changed on that.
00:18:43:24 - 00:19:18:07
Speaker 1
That's one aspect of like the UX, if you will, which is like and this education merger, which is like, how do we design better hardware? So it's not designed strictly for obsolescence. Then there's like the solutions that, you know, solve people's actual needs but also prioritize planet, right? And then there's also like the newest and latest and greatest like that seems to be like the path that humans are on, which is like bigger, better, faster, more exciting, shinier, whatever.
00:19:18:07 - 00:19:43:06
Speaker 1
And this in terms of technologies, when we think about you mentioned A.I. before, but also blockchain and obviously crypto is part of blockchain and all this. I mean, you have people at Google I heard talking about like starting nuclear power plants because it requires so much energy. You have whole cities and towns are being taken over, you know, for for server farms because you have to have, you know, enough warehouse space to be able to pack all this in and then the cooling energy that it takes.
00:19:43:06 - 00:19:59:05
Speaker 1
Like how as a design firm in digital, are you guys able to kind of lead on the floor and really like, do you have any practical examples of like the opportunities that you guys have been able to to successfully, you know, tackle?
00:19:59:07 - 00:20:24:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, that's a big question. And, you know, I think some of it is that education piece firstly with like some of our clients and I think it's about making good design choices, whether that's you know, you see that always offline. It's the same online when it comes to user experience. Like sometimes less is more, often less, you know, is actually more.
00:20:24:07 - 00:20:54:21
Speaker 2
And when we are crafting experience from a digital point of view, it is nice to put certain animations and touches and things that, you know, make the experience a bit more immersive, makes it more interesting visually and engages people and gets them to stick. But I think, you know, there are things like certain metrics that sometimes we've always been looking at that we should probably really reconsider. And like for me, one of those metrics is engagement.
00:20:54:23 - 00:21:17:00
Speaker 2
You know, we want people to stay a long time on a site and we want them to stick and we want them to get them from one piece of content to the next piece of content. And the longer they stay on our site, the happier we are. But is that true? Like, do you need to do that? And, you know, a lot of businesses, particularly e-commerce, will tell you the exact opposite, right?
00:21:17:00 - 00:21:34:12
Speaker 2
They'll be like, no, just get that person as quickly as possible into my checkout, right. Get that thing in the basket and get them out of there in three clicks, you know. Everybody's like, I just want the one click, the Amazon, one click, right. I want to be in and out, and so, and people want that as well.
00:21:34:12 - 00:22:00:07
Speaker 2
Like users don't want to stick necessarily. And so I think we do need to rethink like those engagement metrics and other metrics to think about it perhaps more from an efficiency point of view. So that's kind of one aspect of it. And I think the other thing that we need to consider is every time we're bringing in something in, like question do you need it?
00:22:00:07 - 00:22:26:17
Speaker 2
Do you need it, right? And stripping back not only perhaps makes the experience easier for the user, it often makes your site faster. It almost often kind of ranks better. The cost that you're putting into this thing is probably going to lower as well. So it comes with the whole reel of positives that people aren't necessarily considering. And you know, I love Apple products.
00:22:26:17 - 00:22:43:21
Speaker 2
You know, I'm not shy of saying it, but does their website actually need to kind of move in all these ways and the phones going in and out and, you know, if you actually put that website into a carbon calculator online, it's insane, right? And it's like you're still going to shift that phone. People are going to buy it.
00:22:43:23 - 00:23:15:05
Speaker 2
But do you need all of that kind of online experience to ultimately sell a £1,000 phone? And so I think it's some of these things, like do you need it? I think in our talk back in March, we talked about this in the terms of like the COVID times, you know, when you would arrive in a supermarket and all of the toilet paper was gone, like just because it's there doesn't mean you had to take it.
00:23:15:07 - 00:23:38:24
Speaker 2
And at the moment, this is the thing with digital as well, right? You've got the capacity, you've got the power, you've got the data, you've got the speed to be able to put more and more and more. But just because it's there doesn't mean you have to take it. And I think that's how we should be thinking about how we design, build products.
00:23:39:01 - 00:23:44:09
Speaker 1
It sounds like common sense, which is always a tricky, tricky solve.
00:23:44:11 - 00:24:07:19
Speaker 2
It does. It does. But, you know, we sometimes get wrapped up in the new shiny thing. We get excited about things. We always want to add a bit more and it's stripping back, you know, and thinking about what makes this unique. And there are certain things in design that you can do that gives character that you know, helps you establish your brand.
00:24:07:19 - 00:24:11:22
Speaker 2
That doesn't mean that you have to go with fireworks everywhere.
00:24:11:24 - 00:24:44:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I like that. So we're almost at time. So I have two final questions. One has been for 129 episodes now, the last question and the newest one is quickly, you mentioned a carbon calculator. Are there anywhere you can get that and any other kind of like learning tools or references that you'd like listeners and viewers to be able to take away if they want to if they want to understand this topic of digitality better?
00:24:44:05 - 00:25:07:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, carbon calculators are, you know, you can find them online, literally just Google it, you know, a website carbon calculator. You usually just pop your URL into them and it will give you an estimate of how every kind of page like that specific page, how heavy it is, how does it compare to others as well. And that will already start giving you a sense of where you stand.
00:25:07:13 - 00:25:41:18
Speaker 2
So I would really encourage people who do have websites to use those just to again, have an understanding of where they stand. The other piece of content, well, this is a shameless plug, really, but we kind of released a report called the Digital Sustainability Gap, and that basically is a report that we talk about how businesses are currently thinking about sustainability from a digital point of view and also understanding what they're doing.
00:25:41:20 - 00:26:05:11
Speaker 2
And I guess what we're looking at is that gap between the intent and the action. And so we've kind of spoken to a number of enterprise businesses and surveyed them to have an understanding of where they stand in that. So good news is that a lot of people are thinking about it. Bad news is are they doing as much as they should?
00:26:05:13 - 00:26:10:22
Speaker 2
And so in that report, we understand the things as well that they are attempting to do at the moment.
00:26:10:22 - 00:26:14:03
Speaker 1
And that was just released in October of 2024.
00:26:14:03 - 00:26:20:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, quite, quite recently. So if you go to our website tangent.co, you'll be able to easily find it.
00:26:20:24 - 00:26:34:22
Speaker 1
Fantastic. And the final question, Nadine, in as I ask every guest at the end of every episode of Future of XYZ, what's your greatest hope 25ish years from now? So imagine the future of digitality in 2050.
00:26:34:24 - 00:27:03:11
Speaker 2
I literally cannot do that. I mean, just look at the pace at which A.I. is kind of going. I don't even know what that's going to look like in a year's time. But I think what I could say is that, you know, a lot of people think about digitality and how it could help either solve problems around politics, health, the economy, human rights, like we can think about digital in so many aspects of our lives.
00:27:03:11 - 00:27:26:09
Speaker 2
But, I would like to think if again, I go back to this kind of human-centered approach, for me, I would like to see tech that actually kind of enhances human connections. I don't know if you remember, but a couple of maybe it's been maybe two decades ago, there's this whole thing around slow food movement and slow food, right?
00:27:26:09 - 00:27:44:08
Speaker 2
Everybody is just like fast food, fast food, fatty foods, like, no, we're stopping this, we’re taking the time, for appreciating the ingredients. And we're seeing people now kind of embracing that, right. Now, I'd like to think that we could think about slow tech, right? How can we use some of those principles and just slow it down a bit?
00:27:44:10 - 00:28:03:10
Speaker 2
So yeah, i would like to see the future of digitality being kind of technology adapting to us rather than the other way around and, like, preserving I think some of these analog experiences, like, by choice. So yeah. So I'm looking forward to seeing you in person again.
00:28:03:12 - 00:28:25:02
Speaker 1
Me too. And, I'm looking forward to releasing this episode, which will happen in just a couple of weeks time, but also continue to work on our presentation for South By and maybe seeing some of our listeners and viewers there in Austin next March. But getting together in person is always the winning, winning formula for anything.
00:28:25:04 - 00:28:46:08
Speaker 1
Well, we conclude Future of Digitality with the human in-person recommendation. And for all of our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Future of XYZ. You know where to find us. And if you can, please leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps other people find us.
00:28:46:10 - 00:28:53:01
Speaker 1
And Nadine Clark of Tangent London, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Future of XYZ.
00:28:53:03 - 00:28:54:12
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.