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Introducing ReFolkUs, a new podcast by Folk Music Ontario, where we talk to artists and music industry professionals about building sustainable careers as creative workers, with a focus on folk.
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to [00:00:30] ReFolkUs. Our guest is Leonard Podolak. Leonard has been working in the folk music business since 1995 and is known for his melodic style of playing claw hammer banjo with his bands, Scrooge McDuck and the ducks. He's a five time Juno and two time Grammy nominee, taking home each trophy once. And since 2016, he's been the co executive director of Home Routes / Chemin Chez Nous Canada's pioneering house concert circuit.
[00:00:53] Rosalyn: This organization is a part of a group of organizations founded by his parents, the late Mitch Podolak and his mom, Ava [00:01:00] Kobrinsky, who still works with Leonard at Home Routes. Their legacy of founding legendary organizations include the West End Cultural Centre, the Winnipeg international children's festival and folk festivals in Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, and the Stan Rogers folk festival in Canso, Nova Scotia.
[00:01:15] Rosalyn: Leonard and his team are bringing new energy to the organization post pandemic with the aim of taking home roots out of the woodwork and into the mainstream. Welcome Leonard. How are you doing?
[00:01:24] Leonard: Great. How are you, Rosalyn? It's just wonderful to hear from you.
[00:01:27] Rosalyn: Oh, it's so great to catch up [00:01:30] with you. We're talking house concerts today. I'm wondering if you can give us a little bit of a background about how the idea for Home Routes came about and maybe, some information about what the organization's all about.
[00:01:42] Leonard: Well, going really far back, if you go into the 1950s, during the folk revival, when McCarthyism took hold, a lot of the main purveyors of folk music were communists. and we're in and around the sort of lefty scene and got blacklisted. And, you know, so bands like the weavers [00:02:00] who had number one hits on the pop charts, all of a sudden, found themselves without gigs.
[00:02:04] Leonard: And so, this underground movement kind of developed off, Hey, what the heck. No one's going to tell us what to do in our own houses. And, you know, they gathered together in the woodwork, spread the word and, this thing called a house concert got invented.
[00:02:17] Leonard: And, With folk music and with all music, it's a real crapshoot when you're making a career and even when you get famous, or you become well known, you develop these huge teams. Sometimes those teams even [00:02:30] themselves there's so many moving parts.
[00:02:31] Leonard: it's sort of cumbersome to just be able to do something on a dime. And one of the things that inspired my dad to start this organization was actually the experience of my band, the Ducks. We were playing at a festival in Northern Michigan in the Upper Peninsula. And a couple of weeks later we were playing at the Edmonton Folk Festival.
[00:02:50] Leonard: And at the time we were the rising stars of Sugarhill Records which is a huge roots music label in the United States and Bela Fleck produced [00:03:00] our record and, we were nominated for all these awards, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all these things were happening. And our agency was CAA, which is the biggest agency in the world.
[00:03:12] Leonard: And, and life was great, except for they couldn't book a tour for our band between Michigan and Edmonton in the summertime. it wasn't a possibility for whatever reason. And that led my dad to have a conversation with Jim Keelaghan, actually, who, who pointed out that, you know, even as a [00:03:30] Juno winning artist.
[00:03:31] Leonard: Very respected songwriter with an audience and a fan base across the country. If he were to add up all his gigs in Canada so this is also in the early 2000s so it was a while ago, but you know, if you were to add up all, all his gigs In Canada, it would add up to about a month or maybe six weeks, you know?
[00:03:49] Leonard: And, so the organization was founded with a recognition that a sustainable infrastructure for folk music wasn't something that Canada really possessed. Sure. There was all [00:04:00] these great festivals that would happen once a year. And if you were lucky enough to get hired that would be great.
[00:04:05] Leonard: And so getting hired and getting hired to many of them was, is lucky. And the infrastructure and the investment required to get into that position also kind of causes problems too. So wouldn't it be great if there was this network of folks, movers and shakers across the country that wanted to bring the community together. And even though they didn't really consider themselves or fancy themselves as being presenters that they [00:04:30] could present in this way. and so Home Routes developed as an idea.
[00:04:34] Rosalyn: Well, I have to say that I, personally, I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of house concerts. I think that they are just like you said, you know, such a direct way for the artist to access an audience and also make some decent money. You can charge a decent price for them.
[00:04:49] Rosalyn: Most folks that are hosting the house concerts are doing it out of just love for the community and love for music. And, it's a really beautiful way to connect. Audiences kind of directly to folk fans and [00:05:00] folk audiences. I'm wondering if you can describe the process of Home Routes and what happens maybe from the host perspective what's involved if you're, you know, a fan and want to get involved as a, as a host.
[00:05:12] Leonard: Yeah, absolutely. So the thing that's different about Home Routes compared to, to individuals who have been long time fans of folk music and are knowledgeable about the traditions and about who's on the scene and who they want to curate in the season. Home Routes is, network That's [00:05:30] basically built on, folks who actually just want to move and shake in the community.
[00:05:34] Leonard: many of whom have become more knowledgeable over the years and more interested directly in the music. And then also, I guess I just want to say in Alberta, That's where the, we have the largest concentration of hosts. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that there are so many festivals and also CKUA radio, who are huge boosters of folk music.
[00:05:52] Leonard: And there are actually a lot of folk music fans out there. and that element does definitely exist within our hosts in Alberta and also across the country to a certain [00:06:00] extent. but what happens is the way we work is that we recruit hosts and they're in a region. There's somewhere.
[00:06:06] Leonard: And so if there's a group of 10 or 12 individuals in, let's say Southwest British Columbia or Northern BC along the yellow head, they're going sort of from Prince George to Prince Rupert and, outlying towns like that. You know, wev group houses or communities or, you know, community groups who are hosting in sort of clusters of 10 to 12 stops.
[00:06:29] Leonard: And we [00:06:30] run two week tours. So right now there are seven sort of these routes that exist between Ontario and Northern BC and they all operate at the same time. So if there's a concert going on in Vancouver, there's also a concert going on in Prince George. And there's also a concert going on in Calgary and.
[00:06:47] Leonard: And so on and, it totals over 450 concerts a year and each host Subscribes to the season. And so in the months, you know, we're, we're reducing it from six months to five months because of the nature [00:07:00] of the hosts and the network, they're all volunteers.
[00:07:02] Leonard: the hosts are kind of like the stage crew at a folk festival. they're transforming their living rooms into little Conscious spaces that can hold 30 or 35 people. They're providing refreshments to the audience. They're collecting the money. Sometimes they have a potluck.
[00:07:18] Leonard: They host a potluck. Sometimes they make food for the guests or wine and cheese. The host feed the artist dinner and breakfast and put them up in their guest rooms or in their basements or on their couch or wherever, [00:07:30] So, you know, the investment that the host make, it's, it's all about love and community.
[00:07:34] Leonard: They, there's no fee to be a host. You know, people ask what's the fee to be, to join? And I always laugh, you know, I'm like, no, no, no, there's no fee. but what it is, is that have to take it seriously and take it to heart and know that you're being relied upon to bring the community together.
[00:07:49] Leonard: and we will do the curating. We'll create the posters, you know, we'll do the, the web assets, we'll send out press releases. We'll give you press releases. If you want to go walk [00:08:00] into the radio station, personally. We'll send you posters to put up around the town. You know, the hosts are really the boots on the ground that, that make it happen.
[00:08:07] Leonard: we give them tools to facilitate. One thing that's really exciting is that this year we've built a system. One of the big hero to Canadian folk music, an unsung hero is a fellow named Graham Lindsey. he's currently the, the president of the board of the Canadian folk music awards.
[00:08:22] Leonard: But during the pandemic, he worked with many, many organizations to get them digitally literate, and, capable to be able to [00:08:30] present and to generate revenue for artists and generate revenue for organizations. And we were probably the number one benefactor in that way. being able to work with him.
[00:08:39] Leonard: And so that led to a whole, we need to have this straight. So we built a digital backend to our website that we're just about to implement where hosts will have their dashboard and get their entire, schedule, all the artists, contacts, all the posters, everything that we produce for them to disseminate.
[00:08:56] Leonard: They'll be able to just download from this dashboard and, and, and same will go for the [00:09:00] artists, all their itineraries, all the information they need. and we also received a grant from the, community services recovery fund, which has allowed us to, to purchase a bunch of video and audio equipment.
[00:09:10] Leonard: And, you know, so going to start sending artists out with some small PA systems and zoom recorders and video cameras and they can create content for themselves and in collaboration with us. You know, and, and use the opportunity to, record it?
[00:09:26] Leonard: you never know. You might wind up with a record at the end of the tour. You know, [00:09:30] or at least a whack of content, give them the tools that they need to, get the word out. we want to build a narrative about what it is we do. When this organization was founded, it was sort of founded in spite of the, the music business in a way, you know, like you don't need to have an agent, you don't need to have Facebook.
[00:09:47] Leonard: We don't care what your social media is. We care that you play your music and you can perform and entertain and be a good guest and, connect in all those ways. And that's really is what at the heart of what we'll get an artist hired. [00:10:00] However there was no Facebook and nobody knew.
[00:10:02] Leonard: And we were telling people, don't put this on your website. You know, you're going to get into a fight with your agent. And now it's about how can we connect with agents to make home routes a tool for them to enhance the tour that they're sending their artists on already. we want to create more connections in the community.
[00:10:16] Leonard: So when we, when we seek hosts, we seek folks who, more than being a fan of folk music, more than being knowledgeable about folk music, it's about folks who want to do something fun and, use the opportunity of a wonderful musician coming to town [00:10:30] to center that on.
[00:10:30] Rosalyn: That's awesome. let's shift gears to the musician's perspective and what the experience is like if, as an artist, I get booked for a homeless tour, what can I expect? What's the experience like?
[00:10:41] Leonard: Yeah. Well, it's really diverse. Our hosts come from many walks of life. and now more and more, they're presenting in different kinds of situations. So whereas when the organization was founded, it was. You know, I'd say 95 percent house concerts and the odd public venue. And now what we're trying to do [00:11:00] is, have a big house concert element, but also partner with, local arts councils and presenters who are already presenting in the communities or nonprofit organizations or, or libraries or cafes, or, places where we can do it in public
[00:11:23] Leonard: No, no, but, but the audience hasn't, but at the same time, the idea of the shows are to be intimate, to take away the fourth wall [00:11:30] that exists between the audience and the artist to really celebrate the fact that what's going to make the evening wonderful is actually everybody who's there.
[00:11:38] Leonard: And if you're the kind of artist who. who's an introvert, it's a very difficult thing to do because there is no backstage, really, you're out there talking to the people and meeting them and getting to know them and literally hearing their stories.
[00:11:51] Leonard: It's not just so much about signing autographs after the show you're a guest in people's homes. And so you're, you're meeting the community and as far as the [00:12:00] shows go, it's amazingly intimate. It's like, it's the audience are right there. So it doesn't really matter how seasoned of a performer you are.
[00:12:09] Leonard: It's a great opportunity. To try different things because you have a great audience that isn't huge. So if you, do something that doesn't work, well, at least you only did it in front of 30 or 40 people, you know, you didn't do it in front of 200, but no, it's a great place to try, try new things out.
[00:12:25] Leonard: It's a great place to practice a show 12 days out of 14 days. You know [00:12:30] what I mean? It's a great way. When you're on the road, generally speaking, the distances between the gigs aren't that far. It's like three or four hours. Maybe sort of leave the houses sometimes as early as eight, depending if the host is going to work and they want to lock the door behind them.
[00:12:44] Leonard: But usually you get out of there around 10, you arrive at the new place at around two. And instead of going to the hotel, you bring your suitcase into the guest room. Instead of doing sound check, you bring your gear into the living room. You take your instruments out of the case and tune them up and you're ready to go.
[00:12:59] Leonard: [00:13:00] It's sort of a slow way of touring in a way. It's a lot of the hustle and bustle of touring. First, we got to do the media hit and then we have to do this. And then we have to do that. What we're going to try to do is, okay, well, first you're going to go do a workshop in a school and then that three 30, then you're going to go back to the house.
[00:13:15] Leonard: And at around five 30, maybe we'll have dinner and then, you know, folks will show up at around seven, seven 30, and then we'll get her going at eight. It'll be great. You know, and you meet every kind of person, it's not a thing [00:13:30] for rich folks.
[00:13:31] Leonard: You know, some people have big houses, some people have small houses and they make it work and it's really intimate. Some people who are wonderful hosts don't have a space where they can do it at their house. So they. find a community center and get them to donate the space. And then, there's a town in Northern Manitoba called Cranberry Portage where they, work with the Legion.
[00:13:48] Leonard: And you know, it's allegiance, so it's, fluorescent lights and, bright It's like no vibe for a concert but what they do is they turn the lights off, they bring in a whole bunch of floor lamps, they've got in this little [00:14:00] velvet red back drop, and they just turned it into a living room.
[00:14:03] Leonard: Couches, and they totally changed the vibe, and even though you're in the Legion, all of the sudden you're in the Living Room. but because it's a legion, they can actually fit in 60 or 70 people. And all of a sudden you're starting to get to, you know, that's times 25 and the artist actually takes a hundred percent.
[00:14:20] Leonard: and we take a commission at the end, but they pay us at the end,
[00:14:24] Rosalyn: Hmm.
[00:14:26] Leonard: you know, so it's all based on trust. the artists [00:14:30] trust us. As an organization, not to send them into the sticks into a tour that, won't have an audience or won't make money. And we trust the artists to do a good job and to report the correct numbers on their sheet and to treat everybody with respect as they go.
[00:14:44] Leonard: We trust the host to get the word out and to host the artists and their audience. Well, and the host trust us to send them a really diverse lineup of kind, talented people. when the ducks, the band I was in started to succeed in the United States.
[00:14:59] Leonard: [00:15:00] And we started to work with road managers and, you know, have this bigger infrastructure. for the first time in my life, heard of an expression that was scumbag promoters. and it really hit me hard to, to hear that because in the scene that I grew up in, people that were folk music promoters and presenters couldn't be further from that, as a rule, these are all folks who, you know, love the tradition and loving tradition, traditional music and folk music and story songs and [00:15:30] songs about history and songs about, personal experiences and growth and all these things.
[00:15:34] Leonard: You have to sort of be a humanitarian of some sort to appreciate that. And, even the presenters that had come across in the past that, might not have done it quite as slick or as organized as others. They all come from this place of wanting to make the world a better place, and so, that was a real shock to all of a sudden find myself in this corporate sort of headspace of going down the [00:16:00] road and playing folk music, you know? And, and, and, and so with Home Roots, it's quite the opposite. it's about bringing people together. It's about raising artists.
[00:16:10] Leonard: Like now what we're doing to continue you know, we're, we're trying to work with artists for, two years in a row, sending them on different routes and using our platform to lift them as much as we can. And however we can, and to try to become more of a an artist support artist development organization, as well as here's a couple of weeks of gigs, you know, let's make some content.
[00:16:29] Leonard: let's [00:16:30] parlay your tours into an online show. Let's, you know, with the zoom and all these things that we have now, we can do really cool things. And we, proved during the pandemic that people really enjoyed it. So it's going to become a more dynamic organization.
[00:16:41] Rosalyn: Yeah. Let's talk about that for a second. Cause during the pandemic you know, like you mentioned, you guys were able to stay really active and do some, fascinating. Programming. And I feel like, especially in terms of like Canadian organizations, you guys were really at the front you guys were on it, you know, early on in terms of being able to produce some content that [00:17:00] folks really engaged with what's it been like now?
[00:17:02] Rosalyn: Kind of coming out of that back into the real life, in person world and talk a little bit about some of that. transformation back out of that
[00:17:09] Rosalyn: pandemic.
[00:17:10] Leonard: in a lot of ways it's been extremely difficult because the pandemic itself, it had a lot of consequences for our organization both in, here we are having to cancel 80 artists and 80 tours in a season and a half all at once. but it was really confusing. And we didn't No, necessarily what to [00:17:30] do as far as how to engage the hosts.
[00:17:32] Leonard: During the pandemic and there were different theories among the staff. so there were different people doing different things. It was, you know, it was confusing just like it was for everybody else in society for what to do. But because we had to cancel so many. Things. And at least we had an awareness of Facebook live.
[00:17:51] Leonard: we just said, okay, look, we're not going to just cancel them. We're going to cancel them and we're going to schedule them for a Facebook live. And, not thinking of any kind of, [00:18:00] you know, having a plan. I said, and we'll call it the national online folk festival. And, the team made up a graphic and, eventually we were working at the time with, Kimberly Sinclair and she brought Graham on board and he taught, he taught our team you know, Kathy Crawford and I, how to deal and do sound checks on Facebook with artists and how to get them sorted to do the shows.
[00:18:22] Leonard: that was great. And it, and it, yeah, like our Facebook went from 500 in a month, [00:18:30] and those first couple of months, it was, pretty exciting because, we eventually realized, well, you know, that's cool and everything on Facebook, but now we have zoom and you know, we need to get some money going through the door.
[00:18:40] Leonard: And. You know, we thought if we curated some cool shows we could get the technical thing down. That might be pretty neat. And, you know, so we hosted really, really cool kind of folk festival style workshop shows where, you know, we had Jonathan Bird in North Carolina and we had, we had Korn Raymond in Toronto and we had Scott Cook [00:19:00] in Alberta.
[00:19:00] Leonard: or we had Lynn Miles and Sherry Ulrich and Susan Crowe, and they put on an amazing show and, you know, old man Ludica did a show.
[00:19:08] Leonard: And we sold over 400 tickets and we sent him this huge check from sitting in front of his computer for an hour and a half. and he was like, you know, guys my septic tank just blew up a couple of weeks. I didn't know what I was going to do. And so, you know, it, it was an amazing thing to be able to.
[00:19:26] Leonard: Keep the show on the road, so to speak in the airwaves [00:19:30] to still be able to lift up artists, pay them to keep our organization going. It was great. But during that time, we lost a lot of staff and a lot less money was coming through. And so, we were building a festival in Winnipeg called the Winnipeg Cranky Festival, and a lot of the energy got sucked out of that.
[00:19:46] Leonard: And now we've been just really focusing as an organization to rebuild the tours. and that is slower going than I thought it would be, but at the same time You know, it is, built back into seven routes from [00:20:00] Ontario to northern B. C., and now I'm, we're in a position to start looking east and to expand for, twenty five, twenty six.
[00:20:08] Leonard: But Yeah, no, I mean, there's a lot of issues. There are people that still don't want to go into a private home to watch a concert. There are people that, don't want to host in their home anymore because they don't want strangers coming to their door. or even. That many of their friends, honestly, you know, and so that's why, we're trying to figure out how can we make this an amazing thing?
[00:20:28] Leonard: How can we connect them to [00:20:30] the communities in a way that will give the artist, a few different ways to make new fans. A few different ways to make money and using the concerts themselves as a way to connect the community, who can we involve? What nonprofit can we invite to set up a table?
[00:20:44] Leonard: who can we get to sponsor the artists to go into the school things like that. but again, we're a small, mighty team and we're doing our best, but a big part of it too, Rosalyn is that I'm.
[00:20:54] Leonard: We're starting to actively seek these kinds of partners, house concert hosts are going to be the ones that [00:21:00] find us, the folks we are going to be seeking are going to be presenters, organizations, places that have local reach that can do it in public and still do it in a, in a down home way, maintaining a.
[00:21:13] Leonard: Intimate vibe and creating a lucrative situation for the artists and something that will be successful for them.
[00:21:19] Rosalyn: Yeah, so what's the call to action then? For folks who want to get involved, and for both sides, for both artists and folks who are interested in hosting or
[00:21:26] Leonard: this is the same for both artists and for potential hosts [00:21:30] is to go to www.homeroutes.ca and there's a little menu at the top and host a concert perform click on that and you follow the links and then you fill out the form. We will get that form and then we will respond. there are many artists who apply and we're now, now just finally getting to the booking part because you know, the maintenance of the organization and the maintenance of the roots [00:22:00] themselves have been sort of the focus up until now, but it's an exciting time now, cause we're going to start putting it together for next year.
[00:22:05] Rosalyn: Are there certain types of artists that you're looking for? You mentioned, you know, people who obviously are okay with, contact with the host and being able to, ingratiate themselves into the community, but is it better for like solo artists, duos?
[00:22:18] Leonard: yeah. I would say Home Routes is really designed for solos and duos. We will hire the occasional trio, but because of the volunteer nature of the network and [00:22:30] The fact that they put you up in their homes. We try not to do three people often and also Honestly economically, it doesn't really make the most sense for the artist to do it beyond a duo Really, No one's getting rich doing this.
[00:22:44] Leonard: it's an amazing experience for artists. And depending, on the, time, like it's really funny. We had one host. West who had 50 people at their show one time and then 18 at the next and there was no real kind of Explanation [00:23:00] for why that is, you know, it just depends on what's going on in the community.
[00:23:03] Leonard: It depends on what's happening in the lives of the people there as much as you know, like we tried when we, when we come up with the schedule, we, we look at things like Easter and the gray cup and the Superbowl and, weekends, we obviously do not want to book on, but we have no way of knowing when, the high school band has given their concert those are the kind of events.
[00:23:27] Leonard: That can seriously affect a [00:23:30] Home Routes crowd because where we're working, you know, we have a few hosts in urban settings, but we also have many, many places in small little communities way off the beaten path. So, you know, like it's funny what can sometimes be the big talk of the town.
[00:23:45] Leonard: Can also be like, Oh, well, yeah, but there's a hockey game. So, you know, and that's why we're trying to reach out to more established organizations and include that in the experience. I don't want to give the impression that we less [00:24:00] about house concerts. we're just as much about house concerts, but we just want to have the tours include other experiences so that there's more shows that have 50 people.
[00:24:11] Leonard: So the ones that have 20 or, or 19 don't kill the tour or the. financial implications for the artist. Because the fact of the matter is, is that even in concerts that have, you know, 15 people at them, which you know, We want, obviously want to avoid as much as [00:24:30] possible, but in certain communities, the experience that those 15 people get is very special.
[00:24:36] Leonard: and so we want to make it so that the, the whole thing can sustain itself, be what it needs to be in all the communities and be financially viable for artists which it is most of the time, but not always, you know, and so it's on us really. That's what has really inspired us to, okay, you know what this idea, when it started in 2007, is a [00:25:00] brilliant idea and was a brilliant idea.
[00:25:01] Leonard: And worked really, really well when it was exciting and new in each of these communities and something that was brand new but over time, you know, things need to move forward and to, develop and adapt a little bit to what's happening. And so that's where the co executive director, Kathy Crawford and I have been really pushing hard.
[00:25:19] Rosalyn: that was fantastic, Leonard. What are you looking forward to next? What's the, what's the next thing on the horizon? You mentioned that there's this equipment happening and there's [00:25:30] some, Stuff kind of moving and shaking here. Is there, is there something you want to let us know about?
[00:25:33] Leonard: So, so I think the future is, is very exciting for, for home roots. You know, like I said, we're, we're trying to take this out of the woodwork and make it a bit more robust and dynamic. And I think that's really as far as what's next, you know, We're trying to make this way better.
[00:25:50] Leonard: And as we do that, we will expand across the country and develop the, the breadth of the network and, you know, try to keep creating more kind of weird [00:26:00] opportunities for artists to, thrive and be lifted and to succeed.
[00:26:03] Rosalyn: Thanks so much, Leonard. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you.
[00:26:06] Rosalyn: I'm sure there's, there are also many more topics we could have gotten into. So I, I really hope we can, we can talk again soon.
[00:26:14] Leonard: yeah, great to be here. And thank you very much too.
Credits
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[00:26:23] Rosalyn: That's all for this episode. Friends The Refocus Podcast is brought to you by Folk Music Ontario. Find out more [00:26:30] by heading to folk music ontario.org/refocus. That's R-E-F-O-L-K-U-S. The podcast is produced by Kayla Nezon and Rosalyn Dennett and mixed by Jordan Moore at The Pod Cabin. The opening theme is by King Cardiac, and the artwork is by Jaymie Karn.