Cult Products

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Summary
In this conversation, Phill and Adam discuss their new product and the community they are building around it. They talk about the importance of targeting a specific audience and creating a niche in the market. They also mention the value of personas in designing a brand and understanding the needs of the target audience. They share their vision of helping startup founders and providing them with resources and support. Overall, they are excited about the potential impact of their new product and the opportunity to work with passionate and talented individuals. In this conversation, Phill and Adam discuss the importance of building a community and being transparent in the early stages of a startup. They emphasise the need to generate leads and prove demand for a product before fully developing it. They also talk about the challenges of marketing and promoting their business, and the importance of being authentic and true to their brand. They highlight the shift in networking and team dynamics in the post-COVID world, and the need for founders to have a presence and be influencers in their industry.

Takeaways
  • Targeting a specific audience and creating a niche in the market is important for success.
  • Personas are valuable in designing a brand and understanding the needs of the target audience.
  • Building a community of passionate and talented individuals can provide valuable resources and support.
  • The new product aims to help startup founders and provide them with the tools and guidance they need. Building a community and being transparent in the early stages of a startup is crucial for success.
  • Generating leads and proving demand for a product should be prioritised before fully developing it.
  • Marketing and promoting a business requires authenticity and being true to the brand.
  • Founders need to have a presence and be influencers in their industry to attract customers and talent.
  • Networking and team dynamics have shifted in the post-COVID world, requiring new approaches to building relationships.

Creators & Guests

Host
Adam Yaya-Durrant
Co-founder of Yaya
Host
Phill Keaney-Bolland
Co-founder of Yaya
Producer
Alexandra Pointet
Producer of the Cult Products podcast

What is Cult Products?

Dive into the essentials of start-up success with Cult Products, hosted by Yaya's co-founders, Adam Yaya-Durrant and Phill Keaney-Bolland. This podcast delivers sharp insights on creating revolutionary products, radical branding, and attracting a loyal following of early adopters. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, each episode is packed with actionable advice and stories from those who've built successful businesses. Join Adam and Phill as they help you transform bold ideas into start-up success.

and welcome to another episode of our Cult
Products podcast from YoYo.

I'm Phil.

And I'm Adam.

And this is Pedro sat next to me on the
sofa.

So I'm going to be spending the entire
podcast trying to keep a dog from

disrupting everything too much.

How are you doing, Adam?

Yes, yes very good.

It's lovely and warm so I can't complain.

I spent the weekend in Barcelona.

So yeah, no, good, all good.

Very happy.

It's interesting, we were chatting to a
potential new client for Yaya yesterday in

Seattle, and really noticed that whenever
anyone asks, how's it going, if you are

British, you just have to respond with a
comment on the weather.

And I don't think they do that in

America as much as as much as we do it
here.

But I have noticed that they're very
tolerant of us.

I don't know, is it is it just as being
emotionally stunted, we can't talk about

how we feel about how we're doing, we just
immediately deflect it.

Like, how's it going?

How are you?

How are you doing?

How are you feeling?

Well, it's very warm.

And also we're such a small little island
and when we even have like conversations

with other people in UK, it's like, well,
how's it in Margate?

How's it in London?

It's literally like an hour and a half
away.

It's the same.

Well, because we do, we do deflect it
back, I think.

And then, you know, we're not like, Hey,
how are you doing?

It's just like, yeah, what's the weather
like where you shut down that

conversation?

Yes.

And then to get very meta, you just go on
a podcast and talk about how you talk

about the weather on other calls.

Moving on.

Okay, so

I think this whole podcast idea, part of
it is actually documenting what we're

doing.

And part of it is sharing our thinking
and, you know, trying to crystallize that,

to be honest.

This episode is going to be more of the
documenting what we're doing.

around the product that we're launching,
which is not actually a tech

is more of a info product.

But it is in a you know, we are basically
doing the things that we recommend that

other people do.

I think we can share some of the lessons
that we've learned in the early days of

doing that, explain why we're doing things
a certain way.

And I guess also just a chance for us to
kind of reflect on what we're doing and

show that we are, as our old boss used to
say, drinking our own

Kool -Aid.

yeah, champagne.

Or more accurately, Kool -Aid, yes.

Okay, so I think it would probably be good
just to do a little refresh of what it is

that we're actually doing at the minute.

And so, you know, we have been running
Yaya, which is a design agency for five

and a half years, I think now.

And in that time, we've been doing, you
know,

a lot of projects with startups and more
established businesses all over the world,

helping them with brand, product,

I think we thought it would be good, given
there's so much uncertainty in the world

and there's AI and everything coming, to
diversify the products that we have as a

business.

And you know, we...

kind of hedge against some of the
fluctuations in the market and all of

those kinds of

I wanted to talk to you very quickly about
bike pumps.

so this was an episode of our lives that
happened a couple of months ago, where we

were thinking about what that
diversification could be.

And we were in the process of doing a e
-commerce platform for a client and

thought to ourselves, I wonder if e
-commerce could be something that actually

given that we're already

designing this website, we're already
building out these processes and a lot of

the skills are either kind of, you know,
it's all about branding and design and

marketing and all that kind of stuff.

Maybe we should get into the e -commerce
space.

And so we tried to figure out what our
product could be and we settled on bike

pumps.

It was a very data -led decision, but
yeah, it was bite -punched.

that is a good point was actually a data
decision.

What we did was we tried to find a product
that lots of people are searching for and

buying that doesn't have a that actually
it was kind of led by what's the what's

the cost of acquiring customers and how
how competitive is the space and decided

that there's no one single bike pump bike
pump brand that dominates the market at

all.

So could could we go and do that?

the next big thing in the bike pump world?

I think is what we were thinking.

Yeah, which is which is why I have so many
bike pumps in my kitchen right now,

despite not owning a bike.

And we're not we're not doing the bike
pump idea anymore.

We've moved away from that.

And never say about the bike pump, you
know, maybe that maybe our future is is is

bike pumps.

I thought it had opportunity there.

Yeah.

Do you want to maybe talk a bit about why
we're not doing the bike pump idea

anymore?

Well, I think we got stuck on the name of
the white pump.

What did we end up calling it?

Mega Pump 2000 or something.

And we just couldn't get away from that.

And then we were like, OK, well.

Yeah, I think Pumpertron 5000 was the
original name.

I don't think it was the right move for us
just now.

But it was interesting.

But like you say.

Phil and I are both very curious at heart
and we do like to explore little kind of

ideas and nuggets of things that pique our
interest.

And as you said, we did do an econ project
and we thought that, hey, we could

actually make a go of that.

But no, we decided not to become econ
moguls just yet.

So that idea has been parked, hasn't

And so there was a good five minutes where
we thought about doing it.

But then,

know, I think, I think we had a better
idea, to be honest, I think that's kind of

where we, where we got away from bike
pumps.

And, and that idea really was driven by,
we have had lots of conversations over the

years with lots of different startup
founders and

think

in ourselves that the thing that we really
love doing, the thing that we're really

great at is being at the very start of
business and collaborating with those

founders, helping them

take a blank piece of paper and an idea
that's in the head, get it out the head,

create a product that, you know, really
kind of works and makes sense that people

want to buy, branding it up in a way
that's really differentiated and, and

then, you know, trying to attract early
adopter customers to that.

And one of the things that I think we did
was we had lots of, you know, in the

course of having lots of conversations,
you meet a lot of people who are great and

have really great ideas, but ultimately
kind of can't really afford to work with

you.

And that was frustrating for us because I
think we really wanted to work with those

people.

And I think we really wanted to try and

be involved in their startups and help
them.

And I actually really believe that there
are a lot of really talented people with

really great ideas who just never get it
to market or, you know, aren't confident

enough to quit their job.

Don't believe that they can, you know, do
all the things that you kind of need to do

in the early stages.

There are real subject matter experts in
their space, but haven't haven't done that

kind of stuff before.

And actually, it made much more sense for
us as a business to

focus on that and not bike pumps.

And I think, you know, that there's lots
of new stuff that we're learning.

And this is a real, this is a really
different thing to what we've, we've done

before in a lot of ways, but it's also
very similar in lots of other ways.

And it's leveraging the things that we're
good at and we have expertise in.

And I think, you know, when we talk about
the best kind of startups, what the sort

of point of rambling on about bike pumps
is, is

I think the best startup founders and the
best startups are come from ideas that

have come out of the head of people who
really understand the space really deeply

have a lot of experience in it and know
where the pain points are, what the

opportunities to change are and how to
turn an industry on on its head and create

something that opens up a load of
opportunity for customers and changes the

way that they work.

So I think that's how we got to where we
are.

I think it's how in general for B2B tech
startups, that's how to really kind of

think about whether you've got a good idea
initially or not.

Yeah.

Well, I think kind of the measure of that
is you didn't own a bike at all.

So, you know, we're happy to be an expert
in bike pumps without actually riding a

bike.

But yeah, I definitely feel quite strongly
that, you know, they are the best people

to work with.

And it's been really sad in our, like last
five years when we've had to walk away

from certain projects just because of
budgets when they've had really great

ideas and we'd love to work with them.

And I think that's the thing I think we've
kind of found the most frustrating when we

like, we know someone

take an idea and be really successful with
it, but we just couldn't take on those

projects in kind of Yaya, the agency.

But hopefully now with this new model, we
can kind of get to work with those

exciting people and hear about their ideas
and be able to help them a bit more, which

I think is really cool.

I think that's, yeah, it's...

It's a shame that we had to let same -age
good ends go, but hey -hey.

Yeah, I'd like the impact of us not
becoming bike pump billionaires to be the

loads of B2B tech founders who otherwise
wouldn't have, you know, perhaps launched

their business and, you know, kind of had
that experience of running their own

startup are able to do that.

I think that's a good mission for us to
have and, one that impacts people's lives

more than

keeping their tires inflated.

And I suspect if it didn't go well, we'd
probably just kind of go, okay, well.

I don't feel strongly that this needs to
happen and lack the persistence that you

need to be really, really successful.

And there's something just a bit kind of
shallow and surface level, I think about

saying, well, we could just sell any old
stuff driven by whatever, you know, the

data says, So I'm pretty glad that we're
focusing on something that I think we do

really care about

It's quite interesting, isn't it?

Because obviously the data is important
and data does kind of help drive your

decision making.

But really, if you don't have that passion
and you don't have that kind of knowledge

and experience, then it kind of just falls
short.

I think that's kind of what we realized
with that in a sense.

And I think that just kind of is...

it is for people who start in business.

If you don't have that experience, don't
have that passion for what you're doing,

you are the brand and it's kind of, you're
leading, you're the face of it.

So you need to kind of, kind of showcase
it.

So, yeah, I think, we should move on from
buy pumps now.

I think that's a good, good analogy for
like not, setting up that business and,

and being experienced, but yeah, that's a
chapter we won't go back to, I think.

Okay.

So we talk a little bit about what we're
doing and why we're doing it in terms of

getting cult products off the ground.

And I think a good place to start, because
I think, you know, we've said this in

other places, everything in business is
downstream of lead generation.

And, you know, again, said this elsewhere,
but

If you can't generate leads for your
business, you don't really have a

business.

So one of the things that we're thinking
about, and we're not doing this totally

sequentially, we're doing a lot of things
in parallel, but I wanted, I wanted to

start here is proving that there is demand
for this product and also generating that

demand right now.

Rather than going all the way down of
creating a product and then

trying to sell it.

So in the past couple of weeks, we've, you
know, firstly recorded a whole bunch of

podcasts.

And, we've built out, the kind of landing
pages and websites and started to talk

about this publicly and see what demand
there is.

But also this week we kind of did a bit of
a soft launch on LinkedIn of the idea and

invited people to kind of be part of our
initial community.

And I think we were probably pretty
surprised that that got quite a bit of

traction.

So it was just one LinkedIn post shared,
you know, I shared originally and then

reshared it from our

Yaya channel.

And then various other people reshared it,
a whole bunch of people DM'd us and, you

know, quite a few people that we didn't
know, reached out to us and applied to, to

be part of that kind of initial community
group, which was, which was really cool.

It's kind of strange, wasn't it?

Because I didn't know what to expect with
that post, but it felt like we were like

crawling out of a rock or something.

And we hadn't like, we were being
discovered again as, as an entity.

Because I think it was, it was great to
see like a lot of people that we've worked

with in the past and worked with, just
being like, really supportive.

And yeah, it's quite surprising.

the amount of people that have got in
contact with us, the amount of meetings

we've already had and kind of like some
fascinating ideas and products that people

are kind of noodling over.

So I was quite surprised about how many
we've already got into the program.

I think just getting out there into the
world, I thought was just a big step.

And you kind of like wait and see like, is
this, we're still like obviously kind of

creating this and it's not kind of
perfect.

And I know in the past I've always
struggled to like put stuff out before I,

you know, I'm quite particular and quite
can be a little bit.

I guess a perfectionist and I've learned
over the years that the best thing is you

have to just put yourself out there and
you know and and and tweak and learn but

it's been great like talking to people and
being so open about the fact that we're

kind of shaping this product as well with
them and how well that's been received by

them you know as you say like

drinking our own champagne.

Like we are kind of practicing what we
preach, right?

Like this is going to be a bit scrappy and
messy.

It's not going to be perfect.

We're looking for validation from them.

We're looking for them to give their kind
of thoughts around what we can do to

improve this product.

And I think that's just really cool.

And it's like, you know, and that's gone
down really well.

I think that's gone down that kind of
transparency around that stuff.

How much of that, you know, getting things
perfect thing do you think is just

natural?

Everybody kind of feels a bit like that.

How much of it do you think is you
personally and how much of that do you

think is actually just being a designer?

I think it's, it is being a designer.

I think it's hard to like, see things that
kind of not like completely the way you

want them.

whether it's like a pixel or whether it's,
you know, you're the way that you design

your house or, you know, I think there's
just things like that.

So it's quite, it takes a lot to then just
be like, no, do you know why I'd have to

let go and put this out?

And, you know, I know it's not, it's not
completely right.

at this point, but it will be and it will
be actually better than you could have

done if you were doing it on your own.

That's definitely something that I think
I've had to learn over the years.

It's been a tough lesson, but it's been a
great one.

I had an old boss who said, I only really
have like two states, either totally

stationary or moving at a million miles an
hour.

And I think that's true in lots of bits of
my life where I'm like, I'm either really,

really busy or I literally want to do
nothing and talk to nobody and like sit

and play on my PlayStation or read a book
or something.

Or I'm like, okay, go, go, go, go.

And I also had a chat with, one of our
clients and he talks about this idea of

flum.

And there's a, I'm going to not remember
this and I'm going to butcher it anyway.

There's a, there's a Norwegian word, which
I think is like fleek or something.

And anyway, the whole thing is basically
like momentum in a early stage business is

the most important thing.

And I think I need to either be moving at
a million miles an hour, or I will just

like dead stop and kind of.

I think that's true of businesses as well.

So I think you, you know, I wanted to get
something out this week.

I want to get some out early, partly
because I think, you know, you do need to

start building that, that kind of
awareness and all that kind of stuff.

But also because I think I always want it
to feel a bit uncomfortable and a bit like

we're kind of a bit, you know, out there
and a bit further ahead than perhaps we

are in.

our sort of minds and our comfort zones.

So we're stretching ourselves.

And I think, you know, we talked about
kind of building in public and that sort

of the kind of Paul Graham Y Combinator
thing where it was like the biggest

motivating factor is people not looking
stupid.

It isn't people's optimism about what they
can achieve.

So the more we do that in public, the more
we kind of keep our feet to the fire, the

better, I think.

which is a pretty kind of far away thing
from where we have been.

We're going from like not to a hundred in
a sense, in terms of like our own kind of

self -marketing, which is kind of the
whole new thing for us as well in a way.

But we like the unknown and we like
exploring new things.

And so this is one of them.

We don't know if we're going to be good at
it.

if we had spent months and months
squirreling away and tinkering on this

stuff, would we have achieved any more
than we have this week by just kind of

getting it out there?

I don't think so.

So I think there's a good lesson in that
for all startup founders.

And I think that's...

it's really important that you kind of
almost get over the like the hurdle of

feeling kind of embarrassed and get stuff
out there as quickly as possible because,

you know, as I say, everything's
downstream of lead generation.

So you need to really be kind of tackling
that problem as early as possible.

Yeah, definitely.

I think even, you know, when we talk to
some founders that we've talked to, and

they're kind of in their mindset when
they're talking about brand and website,

they're like, we won't launch anything
until it's absolutely perfect.

And we're like, that's kind of, that's
definitely the wrong, wrong attitude, you

know, and, you know, if we, for whatever
reason, we didn't win some of that work

when you kind of look back and kind of
check in on them, they still haven't

launched anything.

So it's, really interesting to see that.

and, you know, they're the ones that I
feel like they haven't got the right kind

of attitude with this.

Like you do have to be a bit scrappy.

It's not going to be like the perfect
solution, but, you know, getting yourself

out there is the thing.

But as Phil said, like I found that
difficult at the start for sure, as a

designer and wanting everything to look a
certain way and be perfect to my high

standards.

I think

just so, you know, getting, getting that
stuff out there has been really good.

It was also meant that we've had the
chance to talk about it more with people

because those people have then come and
had conversations with us.

And what that's done is it's meant that
we're getting a bit more practiced at

talking about what this thing is.

And that's great because, you know, we can
see when we're talking about it.

which bits their faces light up at and
which bits they're kind of less interested

on.

So we're constantly, I guess, that
calibrating and recalibrating the

messaging that we're using in a really
organic way, which I think is really,

really valuable.

I also think that because we are marketing
this product, and, you know, full full

transparency, we are in the process of
figuring out what that what that product

is.

The

language that we're using, the way we're
describing the value that it gives people

and, the content of what's in that product
is partly being defined by the marketing.

And that I think is actually a really good
thing because it's sort of saying,

and find that product market fit through,
through words and through imagination and

through bouncing stuff off people and all
that kind of stuff.

before we're too defined on what the
actual product is.

And that I think is another great reason
for just getting it out there and starting

to have those conversations as early as
you can.

And actually thinking about product, like
a marketer is a really powerful way to

think about product.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

And that's, and it's gone down really well
with the people that we have spoken to

around the fact that they're going to feel
like they're part of this journey and part

of shaping it.

So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing
where this goes.

And we've done quite a lot of marketing
already, which...

it's kind of taken us to doing some video
shots of us, some bits and some kind of

down the barrel stuff, which has been
quite challenging at times,

I think if you're trying to be excitable
on camera, it's really hard not to sound

like the guy from Cillit Bang.

So it's...

Barry something, wasn't it?

try not to sound like too kind of salesy
as well, you know, we're trying to be as

genuine as possible.

And we are like, but it's just, yeah,
it's, it's, it's more difficult when I'm

not used to like a camera in my face, I'm
more used to kind of being behind the

computer pushing things around.

So new habitats.

agree.

But I think there's something that I think
will get better at this in time, that when

you mentally say to yourself, I'm now
marketing this thing.

you switch into a mode psychologically.

And I don't think we need to do that, but
I think it's hard to avoid it without

becoming really, really practiced in it.

And all of this stuff's pretty new to us
as it will be for most founders.

When I think we've got more of a product,
I think we can actually just, you know, we

can start to kind of show more of that
product and we can start to, just get more

comfortable.

I think this is, and we were chatting
about this yesterday.

I think this is a thing that is going to
be really, really important now and

forever because of the way that
everything's shifted post COVID and

generationally is that I think the days
when you could just have a faceless B2B

company, have kind of long since been
over.

And I think, you know, we've, we've
obviously been quite, you know, in the, in

the background of our own business for a
long time and, and, you know, being

successful, but, you know, I guess what we
were chatting about yesterday was in the,

in the early days, we just meet people
for, you know, for coffees and

they'd get to know us and they'd see what
our values were and all of that kind of

stuff.

And now that that doesn't happen as much
and things happen much more on LinkedIn,

social media and digitally and over Zoom
and things like that.

I think it's changed the real, like the
kind of very nature of what you need to

put out into the world as a business.

Maybe you have any thoughts on that.

Yeah, definitely.

I think it works both for, I think what we
were talking about yesterday with like,

you know, networking, that's kind of
changed, the dynamics of that have

changed, but definitely in the kind of
culture with your team, because you're not

in as much that kind of drinking after
work cultures, not as kind of prolific as

it used to be.

So like getting to know the people within
your team is a bit more of a challenge.

Like you don't have that kind of...

opportunities to mix as much apart from on
like, I guess like staff parties and

stuff.

But so I think you do need to have a bit
more of a profile and you do need to like,

like, you know, if you're, people are
looking at working at a certain startup or

an, or even an agency, they want to know
the founders.

They want to know a bit more about them.

And, you know, if you don't have, I mean,
I didn't expect you to be like an

influencer, but I think you do have to
have a little bit more now than you used

to.

Cause I think people obviously buy into
you, like as the business owner, buy into

you as the founder of a startup.

So they want to know that they're aligned
with your values, the kind of way you

think, like the person that you are.

And I think, you know, if you're just
hiding behind the scenes and you kind of

just meeting them on zoom.

every once in a while it's not really the
same so yeah it's a different world now

and I think also...

you make a really good point.

And I think you, you know, you to bring up
actually attracting people to work in your

business as well as customers, you know,
that's, that's also really important.

And I think, you know, there's all those
statistics about the things that really

make a difference to people like, you
know, who their managers are and all of

it, all of those kinds of things.

I probably would say, I probably go a bit
further than you and say, I think you

maybe do have to be a bit of an
influencer.

I don't, I think it.

or at least I think it's much harder if
you don't have some of the traits and the

advantages that influencers have in
launching a business.

I think in the early stages of business,
it's, you know, attracting early adopters

is all about selling the belief and the,
you know, the ideas and building

confidence and all of those kinds of
things.

And I think that kind of has to come from
a human rather than just a brand.

think also like that's kind of what we
were doing right as business owners with

our team you know we had to we had to give
them the kind of I guess like the

encouragement that we were actually we did
have a vision like we were like leading

something we were heading towards the goal
and they had to kind of come along that

journey so I guess we were being
influencers within our own organization

but just not to any external audience in
that sense.

Yeah.

But I definitely feel like now for what
we're trying to do and we want to build a

community, we have to be a bit more like,
we have to be much more visual because

people need to buy into us and feel that
like, okay, these guys are good guys.

They know what they're talking about.

So I think it's really important for what
we're trying to achieve here.

Yeah, I think when you're talking about
any sort of scale it becomes.

important that you do have a presence and,
you know, I mean, we call this whole thing

cult products.

Cults generally have leaders and
evangelists who are kind of out there

front and center and the personality
that's attracting people into the

business.

So, yeah, I think that's a really
important thing, something we're just

going to have to get comfortable with.

I think getting out of the mindset of
like, you know, having too much of a

marketing

so no, will just naturally happen in time.

But I think when you're kind of
unpracticed at something, then it's, you

know, you kind of just conform to, I
guess, like your perception of what you

need to do, what we actually need to do is
probably very different.

I would say, interestingly,

So a thing about singing that I find
really interesting is that the best

singers in the world, what makes them
really, really good is their ability to be

as good when they're singing in front of,
I don't know, 10 ,000 people.

as they are when they're just singing in
the shower.

And so somebody said, you know, one of
the, one of the people who's really

phenomenal at that is, is Adele.

So Adele has the ability to not really get
nervous and to, and to, you know, have the

muscle memory and the confidence and all
those kinds of things to be able to belt

out Adele songs, basically like they sound
on the, on the record, but

in a situation that is, you know, really,
really unnatural for a human to be in, and

really, really stressful time and time
again, night after night.

And I think it's kind of similar with the,
you know, getting comfortable with doing

marketing videos and promoting your
business and all of those kinds of things.

Like how much of your authenticity and
your personality can you retain in a

setting, you know, having a camera pointed
in your face and being told to talk about

a specific thing as possible.

And I think part of that is muscle memory
and part of that is practice.

And, you know, I think

it's possible to, it's not a thing that
you're maybe born with, I think it's a

thing that you can learn how to do really,
really well, like singing.

Yeah, have we learned how to sing System
of Down toxicity really well yet?

Because I feel every karaoke we try and
sing it and I think we've got it.

But I don't know.

I think, just judging by how my throat
usually feels after the two of us have

done that, and feedback, we've still got
some work to do.

So let's just keep doing it.

We will keep doing that.

natural, natural habitat being a, yeah, a
medle, but, yeah.

is the Eminem part from Forgot About Dre.

I've nailed that.

that's actually an incredible moment.

Maybe we can get you to do that on the
podcast at one point.

If we get a million views, okay, okay.

Do the Yeah, please do it.

It is, it is something to behold.

Yeah.

Okay, let's let's take a quick break there
then and see you in a minute.

Okay, welcome back.

One of the things that I think I want to
talk about next was something that I'm

really excited about actually, which is
the way that we are designing and building

the product and how that links to actually
community building, which is something

pretty new for us.

It's linked to, you know, what we've just
been talking about in terms of getting

and creating that kind of initial market.

But we know that a core part of the
product is going to be this idea of

community.

So creating a space where like -minded
people can exchange ideas, support each

other and go on a journey together.

And that's one of the reasons why I think
it was so important for us to create a

real niche in the market and define

personas that were really, really kind of
tight and clear and specific.

Because I think if we really curate that
community really effectively, it has so

much more value than just being a bunch of
real kind of random people.

So I'd maybe be good to, because a lot of
people might not really even know what we

mean by personas.

If you give a bit of an overview

what it is that we're talking about when
we say the word persona.

Yeah.

So we kind of use it personas throughout
the work that we do.

So whether it's in brand, product,
website, they all kind of hinge on an

archetype of a person.

so, and that person has certain kind of
needs, certain kind of frustrations,

certain likes and dislikes.

And defining that kind of persona is
massively important when designing any

brand because you say

take it in the context of a brand, need to
kind of work out whether that brand's

going to be adopted by that, and it's
going to resonate with their kind of wants

and needs and all that kind of stuff.

So when we're defining them, we're quite
particular around the structure of how we

put those together.

We like to also understand the types of
brands that circulate within their

ecosystem, so what they interact with on a
daily basis.

All these things are kind of like the
ingredients to defining what the user

persona is.

And we did that kind of work for ourselves
in this project and really kind of gave us

an idea of like the type of target
audience that we really need to aim this

product at and what would really appeal to
their kind of sensors.

And it just hinges on being a kind of user
-centered design business, basically like

the bread and butter of everything that we
do, the center of the universe for us.

So for us, actually

You know, we've niched down as far as B2B
startup founders who are people who've got

a lot of experience in their sector.

It probably means they're like a little
bit older people who, you know, they're

really good at the thing that they do in
their job.

They've got a lot of, you know, a lot of
kind of war stories on.

They understand how their industry can be
revolutionized and improved.

And, you know, that kind of character,
that pen portrait.

the person she has a name, has a life we
talk about, things that she's interested

in podcasts, she listens to all of those
kinds of things.

But in many ways, the most important thing
is what are we not targeting?

So we could have said, well, any startup
founder, B2B, B2C doesn't matter.

We reduced that down and said, actually,
it's B2B.

We reduced it down again, because we said
that there's a

type of B2B founder that we are targeting
and a type that actually we're probably

not targeting so much.

We're kind of just inexperienced people
who are more just in the startup game as

opposed to kind of, you know, they have
that level of experience.

And that's helped us to, you know, one,
when we're thinking about the product, we

can really understand their needs as
opposed to like a B2C founder or somebody

who,

perhaps is really, really strong on kind
of marketing and launching startups and

all of those kinds of things, but doesn't
have the expertise.

You know, we've, we've kind of spun it
around the other way.

And sometimes I think that's the thing
that people find really difficult is just

that closing doors.

But I think the smaller you can make your
market, the better chance you have of

capturing it.

And the more precise you can be in your
targeting and all of those kinds of things

so that you've got a much better chance of
becoming

the trusted brand and voice and the best
product in a space as opposed to one of a

million different things that somebody
could pick up and potentially use.

And I definitely think there's like a bit
of a kind of need at the moment for,

especially in the B2B world where, you
know, we're talking about people who are

top of their game within an organization,
but they don't very like detach from

things like marketing and brand and all
those kinds of things.

Where I think more people who set up B2C
organizations, this is a little bit of

generalizations are a little bit more kind
of connected to those things, or they

generally maybe are like, designers have
some kind of marketing background.

So not necessarily on the side, but that's
a bit of a generalization.

But I do feel that in that kind of in the
sector that we've identified in that area,

they need a lot more support and guidance
around these things.

think that's where we feel that we can
offer that.

Yeah.

I think it's hard.

I think people kind of closing off
hypothetical business in their minds is

quite hard.

think humans find that quite difficult
because they will, what if we could make

millions from this person or why are we
catering to this person and not this

person?

You're forcing difficult decisions, but I
think it's for the better.

And I think when it comes to community, it
means that we can get a group of people

together

who, while they may be working in
different industries and have slightly

different skills and backgrounds and
experiences and all of those kinds of

things, a lot of the challenges that
they're facing will be quite similar.

And so as they start to solve those
challenges and share the lessons of how

they've done that, what you get is a real
network effect that the

of those kind of high quality relevant
people are all in a group together, the

more valuable that group becomes.

And that's why I'm really excited.

So we're building this community on
school, which is a, and, you know, I just

think it's a, it's, I kind of wish I'd had
the guts to go and build this product

because I've had so many

people who I've worked with who start off
building a website and halfway through the

brief shifts and they start to say, what
we really want is user generated content.

We want people to be able to share stuff
and we want to have communities.

And before you know it, they're talking
about building their own version of

Facebook.

And it's kind of a real, every kind of
lunatic, you know, who wants to build a

you know, it kind of puts pressure on you
to create a social network, which is

obviously really difficult to do and
really expensive.

And all of those kinds of things can now
do that in their own small little bubble,

you can kind of create your own little
social network space.

And I think that is a really cool building
that framework and that platform for

people to do it is really cool.

And having that and being able to curate
it, I think

It's really cool.

you know, shout out to Jay, the owner of
the gym that I go to, was the person who

put you on that.

it was.

He, he, he one day just deleted the
WhatsApp group that everyone was in and

was like, everybody on school now.

Yeah.

Wow.

No, it's, it's an amazing product.

And like, as you said, like the amount of
people that's come to us and asked for

kind of some kind of

community, social media aspect of their
products.

mean, it's countless and many, how many
times that's happened.

So at least now they have a place that we
can point them to, which is great.

But I wish we kind of had something like
this when we were setting up Yaya because,

know, we like, we were just doing
everything from, from the beginning, like

from setting up the company to just our
first hires.

And we had no one to really kind of talk
to.

quite a isolating.

experience, I think, and we had each
other, which is, which is great.

But we were doing it all for the first
time.

And I think it's going to be really
valuable for everyone, kind of going

through things like learning how to like
build a brand product is one thing, but

also learning how to run a business and,
and, and going through that with other

people who were at the same like stage as
you or maybe a bit further along and you

know, it's all, great.

And I wish we had a bit more of that
ourselves actually, when we were setting

up.

But it means we made a lot of mistakes and
we can teach people how to avoid them at

least.

yeah, that's the kind of prize, I guess.

Yes.

I mean, we've done it naturally just
through kind of meeting people and that

kind of stuff.

I think, you know, the vision for this
community is that just being a member of

the community is a really high value
thing.

that, you know, as in kind of years to
come

you know, if it's successful and we get,
we get a group of people in there who are,

you know, have gone through that whole
journey, have built successful startups,

they're able to then kind of pour back
more value into that community and people

who are just starting the journey.

And, you know, we get to understand what
some of the challenges are and answer them

together.

And, you know, there are, are a couple of
things that I really like about this.

So one of those is, again, it's kind of
just doing something in public and you're

accountable and, you you, you have to,

You have to actually deliver value to
those people and, and, know, by creating

that pressure on ourselves, I think
that's, that's a positive, positive

stress.

it also means that because, you know,
effectively what we're doing is, we're

testing our product as early and as
consistently as possible.

think that's a really important thing for
any, any business.

And, know, in the kind of BTB tech space,
we've spoken a lot about how you can

quickly prototype stuff and user test it.

And every time we've done a project

user testing something in a qualitative
way is the thing that we get the most

value and the most insight from.

So we're doing that, but we're also
allowing space for serendipity.

I joined a coaching call as part of Blake
LaGrange's college group.

And they talked about this.

said, you the thing that you don't really
realize what your value

But the people who you're delivering value
to, they get it and what they think it is,

what you think it is, are quite often
disconnected.

And so the ways that they ask you for
value and that could be kind of almost

criticism or feedback where they're
saying, you know, why doesn't the product

do this?

Why haven't you included this thing?

This would be you learning all the time
what's actually valuable to those people,

not what you think is valuable.

And maybe not even understating some of
the valuable things, things that you're

doing.

Having that community there and building
it with them gives us an opportunity to

figure out those things quickly.

having a direct line and constant
conversation with those customers and

community members, I think is a really
cool opportunity.

That's a really good point, isn't it?

Like actually understanding from them what
are the kind of things that are going to

be super, super important and super high
value.

And I think like we kind of learned a lot
on the way with stuff like things like

investment decks, you know, we never
expected them to pay such a big part in

the process of launching brands for
people.

It's not a thing we ever talked about as
part of the package at the start, but they

were such high value pieces of work for
people starting businesses.

And, you know, that's the stuff that they
go to straight away and it's the stuff,

the practical things that they actually
need.

And I think we'll find out a lot

little nuggets of things like that that
will kind of help shape this a bit more.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm really excited about it.

think it's like, the thing for me, I think
it'd be my vision in, say, five years

time, maybe shorter, is that loads of
businesses have gone through the kind of

Yaya, and Coop products cohort, and
they've come out and they've gone on to do

amazing things.

They've gone on to win awards, they've
gone on to hire loads of people and, you

all this great stuff and they can go back
and say like they've gone through that and

they've done that and they were part of
that program.

I think we'd feel super proud as you know
that we've kind of created that and helped

people along that journey.

I think that's for me would be the
ultimate reward out of all of this really.

Yes.

I know how you feel about that.

Well I mean even just in the short term
that's really important so you know to get

specific about what we're doing you know
we're trying to build a cohort of about 20

people who will be the first kind

people to go through our new product and
to go through that program.

What we really want, we really want as
many of them to be successful as possible.

Not just for purely altruistic reasons,
but also because we want to have case

studies and testimonials from people who
go, we went and did this thing.

This product is really great.

It's really valuable.

These guys are providing invaluable
resources for helping you.

launch a BTB startup, look what I achieved
by working with them.

And this is, you know, this is again, this
is a great opportunity to do that.

The people who are joining at the minute,
they know we've been really honest with

them that this is not the finished version
of this.

We described it as being a bit more kind
of janky than it ultimately will end up

being.

And they're cool with that because it's,
you know, it's free and it's, you know,

it's useful and everything, every bit of
value we give them is a bonus.

you know, I, I think the, totally lost my
train of thought there.

one thing I was going to pick up on there
is like, how do you feel about that?

How do you feel about it actually being
free?

Cause you know, are investing a lot of
time, you know, you're spending, we're

spending both a lot of our days and nights
and weekends kind of putting stuff

together.

I mean, and, and, doing this, how do you
feel about

Yeah, I think I don't see it as being
free, actually.

I feel like they're giving us something
really, really valuable.

And we're really, really lucky to have
that.

So, you know, in return, yes, we have to
actually put the effort into creating

stuff.

you know, once we've created stuff, we've
got a really good product.

And you know, how much would you pay for
the ability to do that?

The only thing I would say is that, you
know, there is a difference.

I think psychologically in the minds of
people who are paying for something, minds

of people are getting something for free.

So the kind of feedback we get, could be
different to the kind of feedback we would

get if somebody was paying for something
because you have that thing in your mind,

be like, yeah, this isn't great.

If I was paying for this, I'd probably not
be super happy about it.

Do you think it'll be a lot softer, less
constructive or it's going to be

interesting, isn't it?

Cause we've never

what we've done, know, pro bono work, but
not into this scale.

And asked for like feedback and stuff in
return.

So yeah, it'd be interesting.

I think it could open up a more honest
conversation in a way.

There's maybe kind of psychological
element if you're paying for something

then, you know, obviously we have had very
like positive and very, some more critical

negative feedback, but I don't know.

It'd be interesting to see like what's how
this kind of plays out.

People just accept the tools we give them.

Or if we do have to push, and we might
have to push a bit harder to get the

actual feedback and thoughts.

think we've got to see it in phases.

know, I think we think we've got a phase
where it's free and a phase where the

feedback is relatively tame and then a
phase where people are paying for it.

And hopefully we've ironed out the bugs
and we've got it to a place where it's

really, really good, but you're always
going to have, I think, things that you

can do better.

And so I think you kind of almost.

see it as like a video game, like, well,
okay, we now level one, we're learning how

to do things.

are, you we've unlocked the free feedback.

When we get to the stage that people are
paying for it, we unlock another level of

feedback.

know, I think, think almost that just
keeps happening as you, as you, you know,

start to kind of broaden out the amount of
people are going through it and testing

things.

I think this is a really necessary stage
for us.

I think that developing a product this way
in, public with your potential customers

and, know, within that community and with
all that accountability, I think this is a

really cool way of doing it.

think it's the kind of the closest thing
we could be doing with a non -digital

product to how I would treat a digital
product.

Yeah.

And I'd say going back to your point that
you made, like really at the start of

conversation.

You can feel that momentum going on with
something like this and the way that we're

doing it.

that like momentum is so important for any
startup.

And I definitely feel like exactly that,
like the more we're kind of putting out,

the more we're trying to generate, the
more we're feeling that we're getting that

back as well.

it's given that bit of a snowball effect,
think.

Yeah.

The kind of final thing, so just to sort
of wrap that up and I think what you can

take away from that if you're in the
process of starting a BTD tech startup,

it's now easier than ever to go and create
a community and that community is a

valuable asset to you in loads and loads
of different ways.

Just from a pure marketing perspective, it
gives you a sort of captive audience, but

it also in terms of,

product development, it's a real
opportunity to build something in a really

kind of interesting way.

I would say it is hard to think of any
kind of business that wouldn't benefit

from trying to build a community of early
adopter type people.

People who, once you succeed, believe in
your mission, believe that you can

actually just revolutionize their industry
and getting them all

one place and getting them all talking to
each other, providing value to each other

and giving you really meaningful feedback,
I think is a really, really cool thing to

do.

And I think it's, I'd say it's applicable
to basically any BT Tech startup.

Yeah.

I guess it's like being in the kind of an
accelerator cohort, but not having to give

away any equity.

is, sounds like it's come straight out of
our value proposition.

Good plug.

also, know, people can join this
community, people who are listening to

this, please do join this community and
we'll put the link in the show notes.

One final thing, and this is, guess, bit
kind of because we are, Yaya has a brand

and this is a product that is coming out
of the sort of Yaya stable.

We haven't started

know, a total blank piece of paper as far
as brand goes.

But Adam, I know you're working at the
minute on the visual side of that and how

we bring it to life.

So it'd good just, I think, to hear a
little bit about what your experience of

doing that so far has been and some of the
things you're thinking about.

The cult products itself, yeah.

That's an interesting one.

It's kind of a, we quite like the name
because it is quite Marmite.

And it's quite interesting.

And I think, you know, when we've tested
it on a few people, we've done like cult

products, know, our producer, Alex has
gone to saying it reminds us of a makeup

brand.

And others are kind of like intrigued to
know like, okay, where are you guys going

with this?

And we did start, I started looking at,
we're going to be starting to do some of

the brand and launching that in the coming
days and weeks.

that's, and obviously that will like
everything that we do will iterate and

develop as we go along.

But we have been like looking and thinking
about, like what kind of elements to like

in society and pop culture.

And I've just been developing and
harnessing some of that in the ident,

looking at things that I think are really
interesting in terms of like stuff like

from like Clockwork Orange to like, real
like 80s kind of imagery around like,

cults and being a little bit kind of
punchy, I think with this and we want to

get people to just kind

look at it and say, what's this?

This looks a little bit different.

And have a bit of a reaction to it really.

So I'm quite interested to like launch
some of the brand bits because I think

they've got a bit of our personality in
there.

I'm looking at doing some collages and
some things like that to make it really

stand out and be a bit more unique.

Because you know, you can see if you look
on like Spotify and all the different

artwork, everything kind of starts looking
a little bit kind of samey.

So just sort of think about how we can
ourselves

know, practice what we preach in that
sense, and kind of diversify from that.

So yeah, it might not be everyone's cup of
tea, like the name and the brand and, you

know, and that's fine.

But you know, that's, think that's quite a
good thing in this sense.

yeah, I have this theory and it's actually
not really based

anything in the branding space that I've
read.

It's actually based on the music behind
all of the Marvel films.

There's a YouTube video that we can again
put in the notes that is basically

somebody going out into the streets and
saying, can you sing the Avengers theme to

me?

And bear in mind that, you when they made
this video, I don't know if it's probably

Avatar.

seven again, or whatever is the number one
film in history.

It'll be some James Cameron film.

so they go out and they're like, sing the
Avengers theme tune and literally nobody

can do it at all.

And like, do you know what the Avengers
theme tune is?

Yes, I literally was going into the
library.

I've got nothing.

I've just got nothing.

I've been watching

House of Dragons so I can sing it as like
a Game of Thrones -esque That is a great

theme tune.

So Avengers, I literally have no idea.

No you can't, nobody can.

No, nobody knows.

That's still Game of Thrones.

Which they kept from season one to season
two, they've kept the same theme tune

because it is so good.

the crux of that whole thing is like the
Avengers theme tune is so obvious and you

know, like, it's just it, you know, okay,
it's like, it's some sort of triumphant

brass section playing heroic heroic music,
then like, it's instantly forgettable.

There's no like juxtaposition of what's
happening on screen with what's happening,

like sonically, and it doesn't doesn't
really work.

It's kind of nothing to it.

So I

with the name and with the visual
identity, I want something that clashes a

little bit and that people will have a
reaction to that is not just like, yeah,

that makes sense.

Then there's a bit more like, I'm not
really sure like how I feel about that.

That's not what I was expecting.

Like, why didn't you just call it like
level up or, know, yeah, something,

something, something like that.

Yaya Academy would have been the safe one,
wouldn't it?

It really would.

It really would.

It's the Yaya Academy.

It just sounds fine.

acceleration or something.

So that's why I like the fact that when
people hear cult products, they're like,

really?

I like the fact that when you look at the
visuals that they're like, okay, what was

it?

You said this needs to be, we need to keep
it different, but less

I think that's it.

The initial concepts are quite satanic.

Yeah.

I think that you do need to do that when
you're starting out as a business, you're

trying to differentiate, you need to get a
reaction from people.

If you don't get a reaction, people are
just going to forget it.

Because there's that quote, isn't it?

People just forget what you tell them, but
they remember how you made them feel.

So make them feel something.

Really.

Exactly.

And I love the fact that when we first did
Yaya, we were both very adamant on making

the brand pink.

Like that was the kind of, it was a
absolute like, I don't know if we both,

you know, we both kind of went, were like,
let's make this pink.

Every brand who's looking at B2B
companies, who's like doing work in that

sector is going to be black and turquoise
at times, black and purple.

And we were like, nah, let's go pink.

And do you know what?

It's, you know, and I remember one of

I think someone like mentioned that,
you'll never be able to sell to it.

It's like a big B2B tech.

They're not going to buy from you because
you're pink.

we've lit and actually it's been the
complete opposite really.

think everyone's been, I like the brand.

I like the visuals.

I like, you know, I like the name.

You know, it's never been an issue.

It's only ever been a talking point.

Yeah.

I don't know to say about my backs, like,
to our face, they enjoy it.

Yes.

Yes.

Very good.

Okay.

I think we've done it.

think that was a bit of a different
episode.

And it was, you know, it was kind of a bit
more like documentary behind the scenes.

Inside baseball, think is the phrase,
isn't it?

Anyway, next week, we'll be back talking a
bit more kind of pointedly about brand and

all of those kinds of things.

But, you know, anticipate more of these
kind of rambles because I think we're

learning a lot as we're going through
this.

Well, we'll have someone else on the call
next time, we?

So it won't just be me and you dreaming
about stuff.

Who is it going to be?

I'm not going to confirm or deny.

Maybe it's even lost.

to do it.

Maybe it isn't.

don't know.

Get musky on the go.

No, absolutely not.

Cool.

All right.

I think we're done.

As usual, please like and subscribe.

Adam, I think you're doing the plugs this
week.

gosh.

I?

Okay.

Please like and subscribe.

All the information should be in the
details of the Spotify.

Please join our community that we've
talked about loads on this call.

But it is, in fact, Cult Products.

I think it's a .yayar .co or is it
cultproductsyayar .co?

I've got it completely wrong.

That is terribly unprofessional.

Not only.

Okay, the hell I'm losing my voice.

So cultproducts .yaya .co.

I've just worked out that if I touch my
right headphone, it plays the tune.

Does it?

Yes.

Piercing through your brain.

Totally interrupted you there, I think.

so anyway.

It's cultproducts .yaya .co.

So cultproducts .yaya .co.

like and subscribe on going some YouTube
videos up shortly.

Yeah, we're just taking over the whole of
the internet.

yeah, get involved.

Very good.

Okay, cool.

I'm gonna try and play the music again
with my headphones.

But thanks everybody for listening and we
will see you next week.