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The Try Tank Podcast is about innovation and the church
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: From Try Tank Experimental Laboratory. This
is the Try Tank podcast where we talk
about all things related to innovation in the
church. I'm Father Lorenz Lebrija Brija. Thank
you for joining us
and hello again everyone. Welcome to the Try Tank
podcast. This is episode zero
20 on Generation Z
trends, and maybe a trend or two about
Generation Alpha as well. Uh, our
conversation today is one of my favorite
people to have once a year, uh, because
Anto just knows so much about the younger generation.
So let me tell you a little bit about Antonin ficatier.
Anto has a portfolio career at the
crossroad of entrepreneurship, youth culture
and academic work. He co founded the
Chinese Institute today, one of France's leading training
centers dedicated to teaching Chinese.
Anto went on to business school in France. France studied
economics in China and completed a master's
degree in christian education at Princeton
Seminary. He worked for six years with youth and
young adults in Hong Kong and England before
joining Wipulse, the world's best youth
intelligence company, as the director,
uh, for western Europe in 2022.
His hope is to one day finish his PhD
in experimental theology that he
started while he was back at the University of Birmingham
in the UK. Originally
from France and lives in London with his wife
Jess and their son Leo.
And he's also just a wonderful person to talk to.
Today we'll be talking about Generation Z.
We'll talk a little bit about everything related to the
anxieties that they have. How are they different? What have we found in the
last year that perhaps is a surprise or two? Uh,
how are brands reaching to Gen Z and
can we learn something from them? There is a whole
new group that we're also listening to, ah,
about rather in Gen Z we've heard
of the spiritual but not religious, which are the
SBNRs, the nuns nones,
and now there's the neithers. So we'll talk a little bit about
them, we'll talk a little bit about some efforts that are being done
to bring in some more pop culture to the church. We'll
even talk about toxic, the toxicity of
the brand known as church. And
it's just a good conversation. I hope you enjoy it.
Uh, let's get right to it.
So anto from across the pond
joining us, welcome to the Try Tank podcast once again.
And uh, you know, I just thought about this. This is the second
year you join us on the podcast to talk about sort of where
Generation Z is at. And you know, we're the
church, so two years in a row, I think that's pretty much a tradition
that we can never end now. It'll just have to continue even
after, long after we're dead.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's great. And we will create a committee to make sure
that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And we have to have rubrics. We'll have books that say how you do this
and all. Uh, it's always good to have you
on because you are, uh, you know, in your
job and why polls literally means that you're
on the pulse of what young people are. So. And we're ahead.
Generation Z is at. So to begin, for those that may
not have heard, uh, or may not, it's always
weird, right? Because there isn't an international
sort of designation, like on this date, a new
generation begins. It's not like January 1 new generation
starts, but rather there's. Hugh looks at it one
way, Varna looks at it others. So for someone,
just in general, for someone that may not be totally aware,
uh, what are we looking at in how
more or less, what's the oldest generation z and what's the
youngest generation Z right now? Where would we find in
life?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah, so I like personally to think of
generations as kind of this 20
years range and kind of class
of, uh, people, if you want, who all,
um, kind of graduated at the same time. So
basically, if we think very, uh,
simplistically in terms of 20
years, generational, uh, um,
idea. Gen Z is basically people who are
born between 2020.
Let's just make it simple. Um,
and what's really important
in generational theory are the
big events that shaped, uh, generations.
And, um,
basically, um, Gen z stopped,
uh, with COVID And
the babies who were born out of COVID
are the next generation Gen Alpha. Now, again, this
is very broad strokes. Uh, it's just kind
of an easy way to, uh,
understand Gen Z and the next generation,
uh, Gen alpha.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Got it. Um, so
we're looking at then if someone was born in the year 2000.
Today, we're in September of
2024. So they're 24. They're just
entering into the workplace. They're just finishing college.
Uh, they certainly were impacted by the
pandemic. Probably do not
remember anything at all about
911, but they remembered that they've been impacted
by the.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's right, that's right. It's all my generation,
millennials who have been deeply impacted by
the 911 war, uh, in
Iraq. And all those kind of, uh, events really
shaped, um, Gen z might, um,
have been shaped by the financial crisis of
2008.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Oh, that's right. That's right.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah. Yeah. That has been kind of like the, really the starting point.
They might have seen their parents lose their jobs or, you know,
uh, they've already experienced financial, uh,
hardship, economic hardship.
Um, but really, uh,
for Gen alpha, the next next generation, it
was kind of this, this new class that was
born out of, uh, out of COVID and,
and how the pandemic really change the
world as we know it. So with this next next gen,
what we're seeing is they are, uh, you
know, there's no question about, uh, what is the virtual
world they were born with? The virtual world.
They were born where their
siblings were studying from home, their parents
were working from home. Now they're,
you know, they're seeing all of a sudden this
incredible access to the, uh, virtual
world. And our data actually show that
they are a lot more likely than, uh, Gen
Z or millennials to have
you spend time in the metaverse
already. Already at
age five, six.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: I'll tell you that if you gave me money, I probably couldn't find
my way to the metaverse right this moment.
And yet they're already spending time in it. Uh,
so going back for a second to. So
when we spoke about Gen Z last year, right, with some of the traits of
Gen Z, it's the most diverse generation that's ever been
studied.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Uh, they certainly, I think, see the world
differently because of that. In partly right. If they were to
walk into a congregation that's most, that's like
98% white, they're going to be like, this isn't
real, this isn't my reality. This isn't how I normally see the
world. Uh, it's different for
me. We know also that they're having,
they have eco anxiety, uh, which
is there are now eco chaplains that I've heard
about in the last
year. Has anything surprised you that you have found
about generation z that stood out
to you?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Well, I mean, on the topic of the environment, uh,
what we've seen certainly in western
Europe is, um,
higher level of activism, eco
activism than ever before. Which means
that as Gen Z is growing up, Gen z is
experiencing, uh, people
throwing, um, soup,
uh, cans, you know, canned soup,
uh, onto Mona Lisa. I've seen that parts. Yeah,
Mona Lisa. There were some vanka, there are
some people throwing, uh, oil
in fountains in Rome. And
this has really, um, intensified.
And to be honest with you, and so
has climate change. I mean, every year is like
the hottest year on record now.
So read those headlines. And we don't even think
about it, but think about it through
the lens and the eyes of a 16
year old. How
dramatic the world would be if I
was telling you that temperatures are rising and
that there are droughts everywhere.
Um, it's really something that they are experiencing
firsthand. So the
eco anxiety crisis is only
intensifying.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And when you add the eco anxiety,
um, to just the
loneliness epidemic, to the mental
health. Just this morning I was reading an
article, uh, on CNN that
inadvertently some doctors who were doing mris
of young people, and they were doing sort of
longitudinal studies, and they did one like five years before
2020. So like in 2015, and then they were supposed to do
it in 2020, but they were unable to do those then.
And now when they did them, a few years after, they realized
that the prefrontal corn, no, just
the cortex, not the prefrontal, but the cortex was
thinner than what it should be. So that there are actual
physical changes happening to young people's brains
because of the pandemic and what happened there.
So what is, you know, on the one
hand, uh, as, ah, someone who looks at
these trends and tries to do this work, how would you
say, what's the truest opportunity
there for the church, um, that
you think as these young people are coming to grips with
these realities of their own mental health, the,
uh, eco anxiety, the just the world where it's
at, what do you think that presents as an opportunity for the church?
>> Antonin Ficatier: One, um, hundred percent community. Um,
what we're seeing is that Gen Z is desperately in
need of, uh, community. Um, in fact,
one of WipOs prediction for the year
would be that brands, or in your case,
organizations, are going to be
increasingly, um, helping
young people to find a third place.
Um, so I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of
the third place, but think
about the generation of our parents
who probably had a very structured
life with family life. That was one
the home. Access to,
um, access to their first home
wasn't such a big deal as it is now for
Gen Z. Um, second space was the
office. You know, commute, uh,
go, go to the office, spend time with the colleagues, have
lunch with the colleagues, and have this social
life, um, in the office. And the third space
was, uh, people were going to church back in the day,
um, and that was their Sunday community
and beyond. And you know, and they probably
had.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Together with church, they had other voluntary associations, right?
Maybe they belonged to the Rotary club or to the Kiwanis club. There were
these places, but that's right, they are also
once the age of the voluntary association has come to an end.
And we're sort of like the last one standing, we
churches. But, uh, you're right, if
they're not going to that, and we know young people are not just going to
church, that third space is missing.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's right, that's right. And in the case of some millennials,
or even Gen Z, who are entering the workplace now,
um, you know, if they're working from home, they're also missing
their second space. They left, really with
one, which is the home. And this one
space is increasingly
hard to get to
buy something we haven't actually really,
uh, mentioned quite yet is the big difference between last year
and this year is that the
cost of living continued. And we're
only now starting to feel kind of the
ease of the pain of, you know, Gen
z left, uh, Covid to enter,
um, one of the biggest, um,
economic crises of the 21st century. So,
I mean, what a life, right?
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So many hot chaps, right? They should have more gray hair than I
do at this point.
>> Antonin Ficatier: I know, right. Um, so it's.
So when our grandparents and our
parents had three defined species,
it's really hard for Gen Z to have to have
one, two, let alone three.
So what we're saying is that
they are grabbing any opportunities
that they can find that
present, uh, in front of them to
build a community. And they actually help. They
tell us in our survey that they love it when
brands help them to build community.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So help me out then, if I'm a
church and I want to, or actually give me. Do you have some
examples of some brands that have
created good community that is resonating
with young people with Generation Z, that we might
be able to say, if a brand can do it, so can we. Do
you have some examples? Perhaps they're from western Europe. What I love
about also talking to you in Western Europe is that you all
are, I think, a couple of years ahead of us, maybe two, three, four
years ahead of us when it comes to the secularization of
society. So while some young people are still going
to church here, you have much less of that. So
you're a little bit of our future. So if we can learn from you
now, by the time sort of that we get to where you are, we
will have learned from what you all are doing and
what brands are doing over there. So do you have some examples
of some brands that are creating community or what they're doing to create
community with Gen Z?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah. So actually, if you want to find, uh,
out the best examples of, uh,
brands trying to build community, you have to
look, uh, at dating apps,
the reason why these dating apps.
Dating apps. And I know it sounds really weird, but
here's what happened with dating apps. Um, Gen
Z is a bit fed up with online dating,
and obviously it means that they are not
turning as much as they used to, um, to
those dating apps. So dating
apps know that the way they have to,
you know, to survive is to create in real
life experiences. That's, that's,
that's the hook. So they are incredible.
They are so creative. Um, just out of
survival. Right. Not because they care about young, uh, people,
I don't think.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, to be clear.
>> Antonin Ficatier: But, you know, but out of survival, that's where you
find the best ideas. Right? People get, all of a sudden, very
creative. Yeah. Um, one recent example,
uh, Tinder, uh, created, um,
events in London. And these events where, you
know, you are single, you're looking for a
date, why don't you come for a run? So
they partnered with the local organization that was
a charity doing runs in the
city, and they basically said, hey, why don't we
partner with you and we're going to create those
exclusive events. Um, they
sold out immediately. Like, it was
like, yeah, it was like Oasis concert. Uh,
it was like, it sold out in minutes. And
basically the concept is, come, um, we'll have a
run, you'll talk to people, we'll have
refreshments at the end, you'll
speed date, or you'll meet some more people. And
that's it. I mean, how
crazy is that? It sold out
instantly.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Wow. And it does tell you something about the.
I believe it's similar to. Right. We've seen the
growth of nuns and the growth. No, n e s, not
the ones would have it. Uh, nones nuns. And
we've seen the growth of sbnrs,
spiritual but not religious at the same time. But
I think what we don't see also, uh,
quite as clearly is that they are yearning. Whenever I talk to
young people for a focus group or something, they do have
a deep, sort of mystical, spiritual
side to them. And
I just think that that also isn't quite as
much the same way that they're trying
to have community and belong somewhere. They're also
trying to figure out, where do I belong in this thing called the
cosmos. Right. Where do I belong in the greater sort of
picture of everything related to my life?
Um, so I suppose local
congregations could, could do like a run
and could do a friend a thon or could do, um,
other things to, I think
right from the beginning, I would say make sure that your end
result is not, oh, we're gonna get all these young people to join us
on church on Sunday, but rather that we can
provide them with a third space where perhaps these conversations
can happen. But they need to be more
organic and they need to be more, uh, about
them rather than about us. Right.
We sort of joked a little bit around that Tinder is
doing this not because they care about the young people, but they hear about
themselves and their money.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Uh, you know, I'd be hesitant to say that for
a lot of churches, they would want to do it to get people in the church.
Not so much about the young people, where I think I'm saying
is, we need to do it about them. We need to do it
about having them have a relationship
with God. Now, have you seen.
So that's. So that's a surprise. Uh, they're unable
to afford things. Brands are building communities for
them. What else, if you were in
ministry, and just from all the data that you see in
the corporations that you talk to, what else do you think are
areas of opportunities for the church in this
space?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Well, I think there's a massive difference, uh,
here, uh, between our two regions, between Europe
and North America, um, because what we're
seeing in Europe, uh, is. And today
you'll learn another, uh, new acronym because
we talked about the nuns. I forgot your second one, which
was spiritual.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Spiritual, but not religious.
>> Antonin Ficatier: But not religious. And the new category that we're
seeing in Europe are the neithers.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: The neither, really.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Neither is neither. Snyders. That's right. Neither
are neither, um,
spiritual, neither religious.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: We picked up on that a few years ago. Yeah.
>> Antonin Ficatier: So it's a growing
category, and in Europe, it's the biggest. You know, when we ask
young people tell us, uh, you know, tick the box, are
you spiritual, religious, or none of
these? And they would say
we are neither. So it's fascinating
because I, um, think what you have to understand is that in
western Europe, the church is so
distant from young
people's, um, life
that anything that can be done to show that the
church is relevant, it's
going to be a huge missional opportunity.
Whereas I feel like in the us people
or North America, I mean, young people
aren't, um, they know
what the church is in general. So you
guys already have this competitive, uh, advantage
of you. Um, don't start with
this. Um, you don't start from the middle ages.
You start already maybe in the 20th
century. So you kind of need to adapt to the 21st. But it's nothing.
The gap is not as big as it is in western
Europe. Um,
and how do they.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: These. So let's talk a little bit, then, about
these neithers. Um, I think my nephew.
The first time I discovered it was when I was talking to my nephew, and I
had what I thought it was a great idea, and I said, hey, would you go
to this? And he's like, no. He said, no, I think it's a good
idea, but, no, I wouldn't. And I'm like, why would you not
go? Um, he's like, it's just not my thing. That's how
he put it. And so I looked at the pew numbers, which is
generally where we get the number of nuns
nones, and I said, oh, you must be like
this 6% that shows up as neither.
And he said, uh, yeah, that number is way
off, because it's. My
friends are like me, we don't. And I looked at the number,
and, in fact, it was through ypulse information, and it was already
in the upper twenties, if not already at 30%.
And this was a few years ago. And what's interesting,
though, is that they're not against
church. It's not as if though the church did something that just completely
turned them off, is. I think what you were just saying is the. We.
It's just not part of our day to day life. It's
just not part of who we are, uh, as
a human being. So it's not like I'm making a choice not to go
to church on Sunday. It was never an option to go to church on Sunday.
Yeah. Um, so that's also growing
on this side. And have you found
anyone that. I mean, what. What else do
you. Do we know about these neithers? What else can you tell me?
Is it more women than men? Is it, uh. Uh.
Do they skew in a particular age? Do they have
other particular things? Like, they don't do that, but they go
a lot to concerts. I don't know. Is. Is there. They
must be to the point we just made earlier, right, that they
have. We all have a spiritual part of us. They must
be meeting that somewhere.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Well, you know what's fascinating? Our data shows that
young, um, women are slightly more likely to be
spiritual in western Europe. Young, um,
men, slightly more likely to be religious. But when it
comes to neither, it's like,
it's literally the same. It's 39 for men
and 40% among women.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Okay.
>> Antonin Ficatier: There's no gender gap to be looking at.
Uh, you know, there's no. It's not like a cute
trend, uh, that would attract one
gender over another. Um,
the bottom line is, I don't think we know
much about what they want. What we know
is that they don't really feel that they don't
believe the spiritual, uh, is for
them, and neither is the religious
world. So again, where
people would see it as like, oh, this is bad
news. I know that you and I are more on the page
of, uh, this is a great opportunity for the church.
I think the example I
have in western Europe is there's a church in Germany
who decided to do a
service that was, um, the
theme was around pop culture, and
more specifically, it was a Taylor swift
themed, um, service, and
it sold out. There were
hundreds and hundreds of people who came to out
of curiosity, because young people would be like, hang on,
the, uh, church is meant to just be, you know, anti life,
anti joy, anti everything. And
here we've got those pastors and this
church that is putting together trying to understand my
culture. So in a way,
anything like that that can show young people that the church is
trying to understand what's going on in their lives will
be, you know, really well
received.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: So what you're seeing then, with these neithers, and maybe
that's an opportunity for Tritech, to do some focus groups on this side of
the US, try to find some neithers and just
try to figure out what drives them. Where are they
getting? Again, if the theory is correct, that they're finding their
spirituality somewhere, uh,
because they probably
don't use words like transcendence or
pilgrimage. But again, going back to another one
of my nephews who came to visit me in California, he
flew all the way to California, stayed on our couch,
borrowed my car, went out into the desert by
himself in the car to go see his favorite band
perform. And then he stayed with us a couple more days and then went
back. And I was just talking to him, I'm like, what was
that? What happened? Why did you come see your favorite band here?
Don't they go by Florida? And he was like, well, yeah, but there's
just something special about when you travel somewhere
to go see something that matters to you. I'm like, oh, my God. He just described
the pilgrimage. Um, then he says, you show
up and you're alone, but you all share the same
experience, so you just get to know each other and you make new
friends. I'm like, you build a community out in the desert with
these people, and this is. And then, you know, you've had a whole day with
your new friends, you've had a couple of beers, and then comes the concert,
and it just takes you to another world. I'm like, oh, you experienced a
transcendence. And basically, what
this man basically went on a retreat. He basically could have been
explaining to me the El Camino in Europe
what he did, but what he was explaining was, I did. So I
think they're filling that need with other
things. And you're right, though. I think the opportunity for the
church is to say, we are still.
We still have something a. To impart to this world,
because we also believe in eco justice and
all lives matter, and certainly black lives Matter,
right? Uh, all these things about income
inequality, all of these things that our prophets have been talking about
for forever, and it's in scripture.
Once you tell them that we have that, they're like, oh, I didn't know. I
think part of the neither is that they just
haven't had an experience of
church in a way that matters to them in a way that's
reasonable.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's so true. And I've always said that the church has, you know,
has already the tools and the hands. We don't
need to reinvent, uh, things. We just have to look at.
You know, we are really good when it comes to, um,
to physicality. And, you know,
uh, I was looking at, um, an article
in the UK where there's a boom of men's, uh,
retreat, did you know? And they all like, they're really hard to get.
They sold out. So why is the church not
at the forefront of helping men
to connect with, you know, with each other and
just to open that, not just for your men's group,
at your local church, which is, you know, it tends to
be the point. We're really good at catering to our own people
and we have great tools, but when it comes to
helping the next generation
discover, um, that, yeah,
retreats are something that we've been practicing,
practicing for a very long time.
And actually, we have amazing places where you can come
and stay and. Exactly.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And it touches on all the senses, the smells,
and the. The physicality of the space
and everything. We're developing one, actually, right now that we're going
to test out next February. That's
about, uh, really just leaning
into the passion of Christ in order to
understand why that matters. And it's aimed at 18 to
24 year olds, so we'll be trying that out. But to
that point, though, uh, and this is something that
we've known, right, about them because
we know that they like experiences, right? So
something like a retreat would be something that they would be
interested in. But I also have heard that once they come
and experience it, uh, then they've already
experienced it. So are we going to keep creating new experiences or
have you found, say, something like, um,
burning man in the desert, where they don't mind returning
to those experiences if they're transformative enough
every so often?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah, I mean that's also when you start building traditions,
right. And when you have the space to, to
create some sort of continuity, uh, in the
future. Um,
I'm not sure I actually have the answer, uh, to
your question. Um, part of it
is also because Gen Z is going through stages of lives that
are uh, not the most stable. So
I'm not sure they're looking for this kind of stability
that traditions, um, give you.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Um.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Uh, again, I can, you know, think of the example
of um, uh, taise, you know, this
uh, monastery in France that just like keeps on
bringing people every year and young people keep
on wanting to go back, um,
because of this idea that they have a
shared experience that they now want
to replicate and
to do again.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And to that point, um, like if
you were, again, the question that Lorenzo always brings up,
if you were in ministry, because I think,
and this is where would you. I think that if we leaned
a little bit more into our mysticism,
that even for those who may find themselves to be either
neithers or spiritual, but not religious, certainly the spiritual but not
religious, but maybe even those that are
neithers, the mystical side of our
tradition, the mystical side of Christianity that has been around that
we know, we just, for so long, we sort of put it off
to the side as it's not as important. It's a little more hocus pocus. It's a little
bit not as it's like, no, no, no. This is. I
would imagine that that is something to lean into
for generation z. How do you think they would
respond to something like that?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Well, I think, uh, people who identify as
spiritual would very, you know, are
very open to the church presenting uh,
mysticism, that's for sure. And I've actually experienced
it here in the UK, um, where I've
been, uh, with some groups, uh, some folks
from church, um, who are specialized in outreach
and they are going to those kind of hippies
spiritual, uh, festival. And people are
so reactive. They're really
happy to engage with the church,
um, uh, because
they already feel that they are spiritual. So in a way they
are in their spiritual supermarket and
asking. They're shopping around so they will listen to
what you have to say they will happily, uh,
engage in spiritual and mystic
experiences, you know, uh, and that you can bring
the kind of the supernatural in the room
of, you know, words of prophecies, healing,
all of that. They are very open for
the neithers. It's a bit more
complicated. What I'm saying in Europe is you have to,
you have to, you know,
to be very pedagogical and kind
of, uh, go back to the basics
and just explaining what the
church is about, because these are people who
don't have a great image of the church and are not open
to spiritual matters.
So, you know, I mean, it's really, really
tricky. At the same time, it's a population that is
very intrigued if the church is doing
something, you know, if they see that, wait,
how is it possible that your church is doing this and that.
I thought that the church was,
you know, for. Was dead. Right.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah. So I think part of that is the, if you can sort of counter
their image in their mind with something that just shocks and
be like, wait, what? The church is doing what? That's just shocking to
me. And it would call attention.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Exactly. So if the church is organizing a run in the
community, they'll be like, but I don't understand. Isn't your
job to just get people to church? You know
what I mean? So it's kind of like going against the
cliches that they have about the
church. And by doing things that I think we're
good at doing, which is community, uh,
development. And, yes, we care about the
community. You don't have to come to our church building.
We think that we, uh, can,
you know, we as church leaders should
be out there in the community.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Yeah, no, that makes a. But the,
and we can finish on this. I see the times coming. Um,
I just. It was you, when I presented you some of the
data of some of the focus groups that you did, you're the one that told
me, and I'll never forget it, we were having brunch
somewhere in London, and you,
like, you have a toxic brand. I'm like, oh, that
doesn't sound very good at all. How
does. Short of, we can't.
We can't. And in fact, we just recently have heard
about the not scandals, but the questions that are
coming up in the UK, because they want to stop using the word
church, which makes sense, because if it is a
toxic brand and automatically young people
are turned off by it and they don't want to hear about the
benefits of participating in community. If
you have a word that is said that
automatically stops them from hearing anything else, then it
makes sense that we would say, let's not use that word. Word,
right. Let's use something else so that we can then get
in and have a conversation, at least. Have you
found, um.
I mean, the toxicity, as it were, of the. Of the brand
of church? What is.
Are there avenues, are there available avenues to still
get to those people that are short of just not using the
word church? Or would your recommendation as an expert in this field,
to young people and knowing how to
communicate with them, um, your recommendation would
be the easiest way to just. Would be, just don't use the word
church. Just use other things and get them to talk about
community. Right. They tell us they like community. So talk more about community
than church.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah, 100%. And, um,
even more than that, remove any,
um, words that could relate
to denomination, because a,
uh, young people don't understand what it means. Right. They have
no idea the difference between a Methodist, uh, pankotist,
uh, Episcopalian, Anglican.
So these are kind of like churchy vocabs,
which, you know, just don't. Don't add any value,
to be honest. Um, and,
uh, well, I think. And you and I have
discussed, uh, when we see churches that are
really doing well, both in North America
and in Europe, churches that tend
to, um, present themselves
as first, um, a center for
people, a community gathering
before anything else,
and then kind of
have the willingness to explain to people
that, uh, we are doing more
here. We're not just a gym, we're not just,
um. Um, a nice place where
we can have meals and listen to music together.
We are what we call church, but we have to assume that
people don't know what church is, and people have
a, um, negative image of what church means.
So we need to be very careful when we. When we
disclose, in a way, uh, the word church, uh,
because it's a loaded term, it really is
just freak some people out. So it's
not hiding who we are, it's being cautious
and being, in a way, it's
also very, uh, biblical. Right. It feels a bit
like what Paul was saying with, uh, you know, make sure
to eat the right thing at people's
home. So make sure not to just claim that
your church all of a sudden, because some people might
carry, you know, um,
baggages and negative
ideas about the church, especially in western Europe. You
will hear so many people in the generation of my parents
who, you know, would just tell you that they've had enough
of the church and the church is bad. And
that is kind of something. The type of message that has
been, that continued with, uh,
the next generations. And Gen Z doesn't want to
hear this is a church they want to see first. Are
you a living community that is really
experiencing love at a
local level? If that's the case? Yeah, I'm in.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: In fact, I just saw maybe a week ago or
two, uh, an article about social clubs that are,
that are popping up, places to be, these places to just
be, to grow together. They're very
expensive. They charge a lot of money for people to go into these social
clubs. But, um, I wonder if that's an
opportunity for the church. Create a social club in a nice space that looks
like a social club, but that it also brings in
conversations and other things about spirituality and
about that.
>> Antonin Ficatier: That's right. And you know, in England you have social
clubs now, not the fancy one, but the,
the more kind of working class social clubs.
In every village you'll have a community
center like that. And it's actually called the social club.
And people would gather to.
It's a lot less about what we do, it's a lot more about
being together. Um, and
these spaces, especially now, are
just really hard to find. What we see
from our research is that it's really hard for Gen Z to
find, um, places where things are
free. Um,
the difference, maybe with our grandparents, is we now live
in society where we have to pay for everything. And everything is super
expensive. In the UK, you have to pay
for everything. You go to a coffee shop, you have to pay. And although
these are great third places,
community center and social clubs where you can
learn to make lives together are even more
important than before.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: And I think those are opportunities for the
church as well. And so it's
always just, uh, I think, eye opening to
talk to you, just in the sense of, again, like I mentioned earlier, because
you all are a few years ahead of us. And so in
your role as uh, in western Europe,
you're able to see that, but also the fact that you come at it from
a place of faith as well, someone of faith that is interested
in this work for that as well, not just for corporations, but that
are. And I think that's part of the reason why you see it also
as opportunities. You know, that there are opportunities here is
because of the fact that we.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Uh, so I just enjoy always our time together. Thanks
so much. And now that it's a tradition, I guess I will see you,
uh, next August or September again, when we have this
conversation, uh, about what and see
what we know, real quick, is there any
one little thing that we know so far
other than the fact that they are beyond digital native
and that they are already in the metaverse? Is there anything else
that we know about generation alpha that is like,
whoa, they're going to be different?
>> Antonin Ficatier: Um, well, it's linked to the metaverse, but they
are more likely to buy their first product in
the metaverse than in the physical world.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Wow.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Yeah. So
can you imagine if I tell you that.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Well, yeah, I can
imagine going and asking your parents for an allowance and coins
I can use in the metaverse. That would have been like,
well, they're.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Very interested in what they can buy in the metaverse.
A, uh, lot less, of course, still about
the physical world, but it's
fascinating.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: It's a whole new world out there. Anto, thank you so
much. Blessings on the work you continue to do. It's always good to have you with
us.
>> Antonin Ficatier: Uh, thank you, Lorenzo. Enjoy the fall, and
I'll see you very soon.
>> Father Lorenz Lebrija: Thanks.
Thanks for listening. Please subscribe and
be sure to leave a review. To learn more about
Try Tank, visit
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Try Tank podcast is a production of Try Tank in
association with resonate media.
Try Tank is a joint venture between
Virginia Theological Seminary and General
Theological Seminary. Again, thanks for
joining us. I'm, um, Father Lorenzo la Brija.
Until next time, may God bless.