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Work and family aren’t two separate lives—they’re one reality. Welcome to Parenting at Work, the podcast exploring the human side of business. Join us for a warm conversation with leaders redefining employee support. Each episode offers stories and strategies for building workplaces that care. This is serious coverage with serious heart.
This podcast is brought to you by Juno, the modern safety net for working families.
Learn more at junokids.com
pam_brown_raw
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[00:00:00] when I'm thinking about people leadership there is work-life integration, and we don't leave our identities from home when we come to work.
Uh, and I think that leadership probably changed for me the moment I realized flexibility i- it's really not a perk. It needs to be part of the infrastructure.
Welcome to Parenting at Work, the podcast exploring the real-world intersection of family life and the workplace. I'm your host, Lindsey Topping-Schutz. We're here to dive into real, honest conversations with leaders and innovators who are redefining what it means to support families in the workplace.
My hope is that these conversations leave you feeling inspired and equipped to build a more compassionate world at work. Because work and family aren't two separate lives, they're one integrated reality. Parenting at Work is brought to you by Juno, the modern financial safety net for working families.
Welcome to Parenting at Work. I am [00:01:00] really excited today to bring you Pamela Brown. Pamela is a leader who has spent her career focused on people, culture, and what it actually takes to build high-performance teams. She spent over 25 years leading human resources for global organizations, and currently serves as the executive vice president and head of people and culture at Crunch Fitness.
Pamela is a C-suite executive and also an educator who has spent 16 years teaching leadership at NYU. Uh, so I, I may have to call you professor later on in this call. If that's okay, of course. Today we are going to be, uh, talking about what people, culture, and empowering your workforce really looks like and how you support your workforce across 400-plus locations.
Pamela, welcome to Parenting at Work, and thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much, Lindsay. I'm really excited to be here. As Lindsay said, I'm Pamela [00:02:00] J. Brown, but you can call me Pam, and I lead people and culture at Crunch Fitness. At my core, I build systems that help people grow in real life, not just at work.
That's awesome. I wanna jump right in- ... and learn more about, you know, what your philosophy looks like when you're thinking about people leadership. What is your approach? So I think that when I'm thinking about people leadership there is work-life integration, and we don't leave our identities from home when we come to work.
Uh, and I think that leadership probably changed for me the moment I realized flexibility i- it's really not a perk. It needs to be part of the infrastructure. I am so glad to hear you say that. I could not agree more. I have heard you on other podcasts and in publications talking about the term ruthless prioritization in helping your teams manage their work.[00:03:00]
What does that look like for you, and is it something that you bring into your personal life as well? Yes. So ruthless prioritization, there's so much at work that comes at us in every direction, and it's so easy to have the day turned around by somebody else's priorities. So for me personally, that looks like n- my top three priorities are always right in front of me on my whiteboard, and I carve out time and time block for working on those priorities and ruthlessly move other things out of the way that aren't going to help us meet our business goals.
And then I also would say does that also happen at home? It does. It does. If my husband or I have the mom, mom of two kids plus one fur baby and if somebody at home for example, my son last night needed some help with his bio, and so we made an appointment and nothing was gonna keep me from get- [00:04:00] making that appointment.
I think something that strikes me as powerful in that philosophy is being a woman in leadership. I think so often, uh, women, we are taught to say yes and take on more, and often I think we do not prioritize ourself even when it is at work. I think we take on so much. What does that what does that look like for you being a woman in a leadership role in terms of saying no and sticking to your priorities?
So one thing that's helped me with ruthless prioritization is saying, "Yes, and..." And there's a whole book written about this subject. So it's okay to say, "Yes, and..." Yes, I'll help you, and let's get that scheduled when it fits." If it is not something that's currently a priority, I also have had-- So I- we have a operations leader that reports to me on our team, and she was sh- she's [00:05:00] great at following up, and she was bringing me something that was not in my top three priorities, and I was gonna have to keep turning her down.
So I also started with Why?, another book. And I just explained to her, if the priorities were a traffic light red, yellow, and green, this would be a yellow in the middle. So we're not gonna work on that today, but definitely come back to me and I, I set the date that I could actually give her an answer.
So how does that work building trust with your team? I would imagine for many of us, we want to know what is expected of us, and we want to have consistency, and it sounds like you're doing that very well. Is it something that is shocking to people that are working for you in the beginning? I- is it something that they are naturally comfortable with?
Uh, there's-- What does the trust-building look like? So in the case that I just shared with you, which happened earlier this week, she thanked me for letting her know that it wasn't a top priority, and she [00:06:00] was genuinely appreciative. Because everybody, I think everybody wants to be successful, and I just gave her a key to be successful that she could keep coming back to me on that same item, and I'm not gonna give her an answer, and it would've frustrated her, except now she knows it's not a top priority.
And in fact, she's now able to problem solve at a different level. Same week, different example, she understood something else she had figured out for herself that something else would be a middle-of-the-road priority. However, there was a contract that needed to be signed right away. So she came back to me and said "What if we get the contract signed since we need that right away, but we look into opening it up for the whole network in two weeks?"
Perfect. Now she's solving her own issue, so I don't have to turn her down, and she has another key to be successful. Yeah, I'm really hearing how that helps you to be able to stay on track, but also [00:07:00] the gift of empowering people that work around you to feel like they can make those choices and decisions and, uh, just really setting them up to succeed and grow so much more than they maybe would've had a chance otherwise.
Yes, and that's an example of where I did well. I think nobody is perfect, so it's something that takes practice. Mm-hmm. And I'm continuing to practice. I have team members that are here with me in New York, and sometimes the proximity, that makes it easier to have that open dialogue. And then I also have team members in California, and I have to work extra hard to make sure we're prioritizing together.
So that brings me to the next question and piece I would like to speak with you about. So at Crunch you all are famous for the no judgments mantra. How do you apply that philosophy to the workplace for parents? Uh, we all know that parents carry a lot of guilt. Child is sick, daycare is closed. How do you build a culture that [00:08:00] actually removes that stigma?
So I think that we-- I think that Crunch has such a great culture, and we have flexibility within the framework. So we have people who work in gyms, and that's not a job that can be taken remotely. So there are roles that we need people in person, but that doesn't mean that we don't have a heart when there is a sick child at home or school is calling and they need the parent to come in.
I myself have two children. My children are grown now, but I went through that myself. They were largely grown by the time I came to Crunch, but, uh, I wish I worked at Crunch when they were small because I, I think that Crunch truly does have no judgments. That's not just for moms either. It's also for dads.
You went right into the next topic. You know, I, I think one of the really enjoyable things in having an opportunity to speak with professionals like yourself is that there seems to [00:09:00] always be kind of a turning point in our paths for those of us who are parenting at work. And so I'm curious if you would share a time with us, a story, a moment, uh, when your work-life balance of trying to do all of the corporate things and the parenting things came to a head.
Uh, what was that like for you? So one moment, one memory that comes to mind is we had, in 2007, we adopted our daughter, and I was on, uh, parental leave having bonding time with my daughter. And this was 2007, so the financial crisis was looming that happened in 2008, and I was... The company I was working for was financial services.
It was at the heart of that event, and the CEO called me and let me know that I would either need to delegate a good chunk of my role or I would need to find a way to come back because [00:10:00] there were some big things that were gonna happen with the company. And I was the chief people officer, so that work had to get done.
And I actually decided to come back, but, and this was well before COVID, it was well before workplace flexibility was more prevalent. I had conditions for coming back. So the conditions I set for coming back were that I would start with two days a week in the office and three days a week at home, and I'm, I'm dating myself here that I had a BlackBerry, I had a computer set up, and I had all of the things that could help me do my job hybrid, partly from home, partly from the office.
And I actually, in that role, never went back to five days a week in the office because it worked well, and it allowed me the bonding time with my daughter, and I ended up getting more bonding time probably than I would have had I not come back early. That had to have been a very scary time, [00:11:00] and I am so impressed at the ability you had to pivot and make it work, like you said, maybe better than it would've been otherwise.
And I think that it increased... It was my moment of realizing that we have to lead with flexibility and that there's really no such thing as work-life balance. There's work-life integration. Yeah. And I think I also learned that when I had my son's older than my daughter, I would say going back to work from that parental leave I remember thinking, I'm not gonna be able to do parenting well, and I'm not gonna be able to do my job well.
Nothing is gonna be 100% anymore. And I think what I came to understand is there's work-life integration, and you can make everything work, but you have to ruthlessly prioritize everywhere you are. During that time where you were experiencing challenges and trying to decide what are those priorities, did you feel comfortable going to your [00:12:00] HR professionals and sharing any of your story of what was going on?
Clearly, with your daughter, you spoke your piece, and you were very clear in what you needed. With your son, were you able to feel heard, and did that influence the way that you I would imagine, approach how you have conversations or encourage people that work for you to have conversations with people today?
1,000%. So I didn't have-- I, I was the chief people officer when I got pregnant with my son, and so I didn't have an HR person I could turn to. So I had to talk to the CEO of the company, and my plan was to wait until I was 12 weeks pregnant just to make sure that everything was okay. And he started talking to me about things that were coming for the company while I was about a month in, and even though I really hadn't planned on saying anything, in that moment, [00:13:00] it just felt authentic to let him know.
So I ended up letting him know, and he-- I don't think that he asked perfect questions. I think that if I were the HR person or the attorney advising him, he might have said things he, he isn't supposed to, but that was actually okay with me. It was fine. He asked me, uh, what I had planned for childcare, and he wanted to make-- he wanted to know if I was coming back, and also that even if I said I'm coming back, that I might not, 'cause he himself is a parent, so he, he might have known that better than I did, uh, at that time.
And so we kind of made the plans together, and I always planned to come back, and I did. I would say that what came as a surprise to me was how hard it was to come back, and it took me about two weeks of practicing at daycare, uh, before-- I didn't s- I didn't just do it in one shot. I practiced for two weeks before my leave ended so that my first day at work would be okay for me.
[00:14:00] And it was probably harder for me than it was for my four-month-old. Fair. But I think that was wise. I think that sometimes we have to fake it till we make it, and giving yourself that little bit of breathing space probably was a really fabulous plan. Uh, you, you talked about something earlier, and I'm hearing it again, and that is that we don't always expect perfection from people.
Nothing is going to be perfect. But I think that, you know, having that opportunity for transparency and then giving a bit of grace, knowing that we all are in this very human experience, and parenting and working are such vulnerable personal things, and I think it's going to trigger so many emotions. We think about kind of like a before and after, and you, you definitely have that.
You have this before and after of your kind of personal reckoning of becoming the parent at work. ~Sorry, I lost my train of thought completely there for a moment. Uh, don't mind me here. Sorry. We're just gonna begin again.~
When I read about you and when I listened to you on other [00:15:00] podcasts, one of the things that stands out to me the most is that you are powerful, and that power is contagious to me. And one of the things I want most for this audience is for them to get to walk away with nuggets and to feel empowered by your power, by your bravery and your courage over, you know, ca- a career that has been very successful.
What are the things that you want other either top-level executive HR professionals to know or those who are still coming up through the ranks and very much in the thick of parenting? Two different questions mixed in there, but I would love to hear your thoughts on both of those different groups, things that you could- I-- Yeah.
Thank you for this question. It's wonderful. I would say to lean-- that we should all lean into empathy. When my son was a baby, we had some scary times, and [00:16:00] everything turned out okay, but we didn't know that it was gonna turn out okay. I had a community of people around me. I had empathy at work. I actually didn't share a lot of it at work.
I think that would be different today. I probably would share more of it instead of suffering in silence. So I would ask any people, professionals, executives alike, to lean into empathy. Nobody is perfect. But if you lean into empathy. It comes back tenfold. And if you can find a way to be flexible, and maybe flexibility, so for example, in gyms, flexibility isn't going to be a remote situation, but what can a flexible arrangement look like?
Do you mind sharing a bit about what that flexibility looks like, what you have found to work at Crunch in that exact example? Sure. It is really finding the community within Crunch. So if that individual can come in [00:17:00] only on certain days because of other commitments, making those days work. Instead of, uh, in, if I'm thinking about the office, if we have hybrid three days a week, if we can do a pilot with hybrid two days a week if it's necessary.
And then for the sake of the business, we might need to test out if that works. And if it does, great, then we have that flexibility within the framework. And it might not look the same for everyone, and I have two different kids, and my pa- my parenting philosophy has been the same, which is it might not always be fair, it might not always be the same.
Each of you are gonna get what you need. And I think that approaching that at work goes a very long way. I also had a recent experience with a colleague. She came with me to a c- a convention that she had wanted to go to for a long time, and we made the business case for her to go, come to the convention.
She was great. She was having all the meetings [00:18:00] she was supposed to have, and she was set to help. I was speaking at the event, and she was set to film for me. And right before I was set to go on for my, for my talk, I saw something in her face that was not herself. And I asked her, I said, "Is it work-related?"
And she said, "No." And I said, "Whatever it is, it's okay to go." And sh- it turned out that she had a family member that wasn't doing well, and so she had to exit, and sh- but she didn't even have to tell me because I could see it. I went on with my talk. She did what she needed to do. And when I got back to the office, she was definitely full of gratitude, but she didn't need to be because it was just the right thing to do.
I think that people don't realize how much those moments mean, how much harder employees want to work for people that see them, [00:19:00] that give them that grace, who extend that to them, I wanna come work for you. Come on over. I'm on my way. You know, one thing that I skipped through a little quicker and I would like to revisit back to, uh, your role as professor.
You know, you are wearing so many hats, and you are a professor teaching leadership, so these worlds definitely commingle. But are you finding that you have a different personality as professor than you do HR people leader? That is so funny you should ask me that, because I have hired some of my students, and I ask them the same question.
I ha- I, there was one point where I had three former students who were on my team, and I asked them that question, and they said that, uh, definitely there-- I am busier and less available in my executive role. So I think I'm more ruthlessly prioritizing in my executive [00:20:00] role. When I'm in my classroom, uh, a big part of being in my classroom is very active listening, giving extra time, so staying after the day ends, and it's a long day, 'cause when I teach, it's nighttime.
But I've never said no to a student that wanted to either stay extra or have me come in a little bit early. I think at the office, I have to be more selective about those engagements. But after getting that feedback directly from my students, I also leaned into trying to have that professor mentality or really mentor mentality of leaning into listening and giving that extra time.
So maybe it means we're gonna have a working lunch, and they're gonna get that time during the lunch. I, I've never regretted giving somebody development time. So it's important to ruthlessly prioritize, but it's also really important to prioritize developing your people. Yeah. [00:21:00] I can't imagine a time that somebody would truly regret that.
It's such- ... such a great investment, and many of the things that you're saying, uh, in some ways are low-hanging fruit. It's taking that moment and having that conversation. It's knowing the people that work with you well enough to see on her face that something was not right. Those moments do not have to be an entire overhaul of a department.
They don't have to be a restructuring. Those are, are people moments that really stand out to me in your story that are so incredibly powerful. I would say I also learned at Crunch, uh, part of fitness is relax and recovery. You can actually work out better and- if your goal is getting stronger, that works out better if you're taking the time to relax and recover.
And this is something it took me a lot of years to learn, and my children were probably already older when I learned. But it's important to [00:22:00] do that and relax and reset and recover from a work perspective too. If I actually unplug on a family vacation, I come back and I'm stronger at work. That makes sense, and not always easy to do I'm sure.
So it- it's the practice- I, I- ... it's- I'm certain that people from my past would be laughing to hear me give the advice that I didn't take myself in my younger years. So you asked me what advice I would give. If I were a young parent again, I would do things differently. Yeah. I think when we're using the theme of crunch and fitness, those are muscles we're strengthening, so are these people development skills.
Absolutely takes practice. It takes rest to build up stronger and better than before, and I think that it sounds like, uh, your journey has been one that, uh, they may be surprised from your past to hear certain things, but I think they would be applauding you and very grateful for where you're, where [00:23:00] you've been and where you are heading.
And I'd say even in the days that I was not, that I didn't give myself that grace, I did work for people that would give me that grace. So they would encourage me to unplug on vacation. They could see that I was maybe working a little bit too hard, and that also your, your children's years, they don't, they only come once.
Yeah. So it's just important to surround yourself with people who have those values and that can remind you if you forget yourself. That way when you're looking at yourself in those big wonderful gym mirrors, you can smile and feel good about the decisions you are making. 1,000%. Yeah. 1,000%. Well, I think a couple of the biggest takeaways for me in speaking with you, I mean obviously, and I'm sure you speak about this all the time, but the ruthless prioritization is something that just is huge and stuck out to me, and I believe it will connect with so many of the people listening to this podcast.
I think the way that [00:24:00] you say no and say yes and is incredibly powerful, not just for protecting your own self, but as we talked about, I think that empowering your staff, your, your team, that's huge. I think it's just wonderful. I also, uh, this is the second time... ~B- sorry, they're gonna have to make a couple of cuts on this one.~
~I, I just got myself all tongue-tied here. Pamela, you made me so comfortable that then I just- ... thought, "Where are my notes?" Okay. So I, I think that-~ At this point in time, I want to thank you for being on Parenting at Work. Again, I think a huge takeaway is that when you invest into your people with empathy and grace, it will always be the right decision.
Thank you. Where can folks find you if they want to connect with you? Thank you so much for asking. So I say Pamela J. Brown at the beginning because, uh, there are a lot of Pamela Browns on LinkedIn, but you can find me if you use my middle initial. And I do have, um, a newsletter on LinkedIn too called Multiplying Moves, and it's all about scaling at work, and there's some fitness stuff in there [00:25:00] too.
I love it. I love it. That is wonderful. Thank you so much, and thank you for listening to Parenting at Work. to work. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much.
Thanks for joining us at Parenting at Work. If you liked this conversation, make sure to subscribe to Parenting at Work where you get your podcasts. And if this story resonated with you, the single most impactful thing you can do is share it with one other person, a fellow HR leader, a manager, or anyone who believes in building workplaces that care.
Parenting at Work is brought to you by Juno, the modern financial safety net for working families. Juno helps employers offer affordable long-term coverage for children who develop new severe illnesses or disabilities, giving parents peace of mind and flexibility when it matters most. You can learn more about how Juno is helping companies build family-first benefits at junokids.com.
I'm Lindsay. Thanks for listening, now let's get back to [00:26:00] work.