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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
So I've started to
notice something over
the past several months.
Product marketing is
splitting into two groups.
In group one, we have the
PMMs who are using AI to
complete a task faster.
They're spinning up
messaging, writing narratives,
or creating enablement
materials, et cetera.
And then in group two, we have
the PMMs who are using AI to
operationalize deep thinking.
They pressure test positioning
from multiple customers'
perspectives, or they
synthesize patterns across
dozens of interviews,
all in real time or as
an always-on system.
And I think we all fell
into that first camp when we
all first started with AI.
But what I'm seeing now is
that the strong PMMs are now
outgrowing that, and they're
operationalizing with AI.
Today's episode is one
of the best examples I've
seen of that done well.
Today, we're talking about
how you reposition an entire
company at breakneck speed
without losing the plot.
How you take a company
known for one persona and
completely shift the narrative
toward another, while
also building the internal
systems that keep every team
speaking the same language.
And I could not think of
a better person to have
this conversation with than
today's guest, Ryan Radcliffe.
Ryan leads product marketing
at Vivun, where he's been
at the center of a massive
positioning shift as the
company evolved from serving
sales engineers to introducing
a new product for sellers.
What I love about Ryan's
approach is that this was not
some, like, throw some prompts
into Claude and hope for
the best type of situation.
This was deeply operational,
deeply strategic.
He built a 40-page messaging
and persona manifesto grounded
in research, stakeholder
alignment, customer
psychology, voice of customer
insights, all the good stuff,
and then he used those systems
to move incredibly fast.
We're talking, like,
build a brand new website
in just two weeks fast.
Super crazy.
With that, Ryan,
I'm so excited to
have you here today.
Welcome to the show
Thank you, Elle.
Thanks so much for having me.
I love that intro.
Uh, I love the
energy that you have.
I'm such a fan
of this podcast.
I'm so glad to be here.
This is a topic that I
think about every day, so
I'm excited to get into it
Yay.
Thank you so much
for saying so.
okay.
So let's get started with
something really simple
for the listeners today.
What is Vivin?
And you just launched this
new product called Hero.
How does that fit
into the story?
Just give us some background
context on all of that
Absolutely.
So for background context
for people, Vivint is the
company and Hero is the
product that we build.
And the easiest way that
I think about that is like
Anthropic is the company
and Claude is the product.
It's the same idea.
Hero is an AI sales teammate.
It joins live
calls with sellers.
It knows the deals, it
knows their products, it
knows their customers.
It helps them in those
moments, those key moments
that actually decide whether
that deal goes forward
in a very proactive way.
So before the call, it's
getting you ready fast.
During the call, it's
really there for the seller,
like when they have a
question that they don't
know how the answer for.
Like, if you asked me a
really hard question and I
had Hero on, it would like
give me a response for you,
which would be amazing.
Uh, and then after the
call, it handles up all
those things that sellers
don't wanna do, right?
They wanna think
about the next call.
They don't wanna update the
CRM or anything like that.
So I, I love the solution
that our product team and our
engineering team has built.
most sales tools are working
before the conversation
or after it, and Hero's
right there inside.
I love that.
So basically keeping the
seller's skill in the field
versus taking their time to
do stuff like update the CRM.
So keeping all the insights
in the, in the right
places, keeping the skills
in the right places.
So good.
Okay.
So now I want to get
into the case study bit
of all this because it's
so fascinating to me.
So you joined the company,
at this really interesting
inflection point where they
were shifting from sales
engineers to sellers with
this product called Hero.
and from what you shared
with me before, this was
so much more than just,
like, a messaging refresh.
Like, it was pretty, a pretty
major shift, like an identity
shift for the company even
with this new audience.
So
take us back to that moment.
Like, what was happening
internally when the team
realized, like, "Okay,
we need to reposition
the whole company"?
Yeah, absolutely.
So when I joined, Vivun
really had deep roots
with sales engineers.
a product line, a whole slew
of customers, really technical
people supporting big deals.
The company was so good at
that, but the founders got
really fired up about a
completely different problem,
and that's that whole thing
about what if the seller, the
person who's, has to perform,
can get that expert support
live on the call, right?
So how I kind of phrase
it all the time is like,
we burned the boats, we
built a whole new product.
a completely different person,
completely different problem.
you know, the seller is the
one performing, and that gap
is everywhere in sales, and
no one knew how to solve it.
And so Hiro is actually an
old product name that Vivun
has brought back, um, to be
a part of what we're doing
now, which is very cool.
We had the copyright for this
name, which is very exciting.
Um, so the decision was
made to go all in this new
shift, new branding, new
colors, new website, all
of it, sort of a new way of
thinking about Vivun as this
kind of like overarching
research firm on top of Hiro.
and so we needed
a whole new story.
We needed to make sure
that how we were thinking
about personas was correct.
new point of view.
That was really
the job, right?
Come in, Q1 started
on February 1st.
I started like a
week before that.
and so that was it.
Operationalize a brand new
narrative from scratch.
And so what we did, uh,
what we started by doing
was building the 40-page
positioning and messaging
doc, and then a persona doc,
doing the heavy research, um,
doing all that with Claude, as
the foundation, uh, and then
sharing it with the company
and really making it like
this operationalized thing.
and so the result of all
that, which has been amazing,
is that, my cohort and the
rest of the marketing team,
my, my, uh, director of,
of growth marketing, demand
gen, she really was able
to take this and have it
be one of her main inputs
for making a whole-- new
website in a matter of weeks.
Just incredible
work on her part.
and this was a main driver
for getting that done.
Uh, and it's
really incredible.
We did a soft
launch on April 6th.
We did the big launch, uh,
three days ago on May 5th.
The new website in two
weeks, the company aligned.
it's really incredible
how this framework has
really given this like
consistent DNA, um, to
everything we do, and
it's, it's really exciting.
I love that, and that
all happened so quickly.
And remind me,
how big is Vivint?
Like, how many,
how many employees?
Vivint's around, I think
we're around 75 people
Okay.
But still, it's a lot of
people, it's a lot of, um,
teams to try to rally around.
I mean, I worked at a
company about that size a
long time ago, and it takes
a little bit of work to try
to get everybody, you know,
speaking the same language.
and it sounds like you
had some really strong
stakeholders to help
pull this off too,
which is always a bonus.
and when you first build, kind
of like generally speaking,
it sounds like your approach
was, okay, like let's all
get clarity on something.
Like you put so much
effort, and I w- and I
do wanna get into this.
Um, I'll have more questions
on this in a, in just a bit.
But you put so much effort
into building that 40-page
manifesto, which is the
opposite of what I'm hearing
as advice from other product
marketers out there who are
really good at their jobs.
I err more on heavy research.
I like doing that
kind of activity.
It just, it helps me
personally feel like I'm being
a better PMM and be just more,
get more confidence and get
more conviction in whatever
narrative I'm stringing up.
So I'm in camp, like,
yes, more research.
But, um, but you, you got
clarity on positioning, you
got clarity on personas.
You put all of that
together in this like
40-page manifesto, and then
you operationalized it.
So I'm a little curious
now, like when you were
building those manifestos
and like, then like the
systems in place, was there
a moment when you realized
like, "Oh, this is how we're
gonna change, like how the
whole company communicates?"
Versus like, was it like
you, was it very methodical,
like you knew that that
was going to affect it?
Or was it like, "No, no, no,
this is just my process"?
You know, kind of talk
through that a little bit.
Yeah.
Thank you for that question.
So this kind of starts from
a couple years ago where
I ma-- I tried to make a
version of this in ChatGPT
for my former-- in a former
life, and there was a lot of
hallucinations, and it just
wasn't lining up with what
I needed it to be, right?
I needed it to work
for people who were not
critically looking at the
messaging like I was, right?
Like you and I and product
marketers, like, we love
looking at those little
things and those little things
that are-- that can come up
wrong and, and change them.
But I needed someone not
so close to that to be
able to take something
and run with it and not
get caught with a problem.
And so coming here to Vivint,
I was so excited at how
big of a Claude sort of,
uh, momentum was happening
here at the company.
We're using Claude
for so much stuff.
And then I just love April
Dunford and Anthony Pieri
and some of these, like, big
product marketing voices,
and I just thought, "This
is gonna be so exciting
for me. I'm gonna take this
positioning and messaging
framework that I've been
really tasked to do," because
what my boss did, w- we have
an incredible CMO at Vivint,
but he sat down with the
founders and the E-suite and
got the narrative from them.
So I'm able to start with
the narrative, and that's
ama- that's a gift, right?
'Cause that's really hard
work to get a bunch of leaders
in a room and really decide
on how we win the market.
that.
is step one in what April
Dunford talks about,
and he did that step.
So that's amazing, is I get
to come in with that and then
building this whole thing out.
And the reason why it was
long and the reason why it
was so complete is that I
thought that if I could get
this into Claude and really
make sure I'm, like, dotting
every I, crossing every
T, that it can continue to
give me the outputs I want.
And where we really saw
this was when the team
turned around and said,
"Hey, we need a hero website
in a couple of weeks, and
we're gonna build Page
frames, and then I'm gonna
download that page in HTML.
I'm gonna throw it into Claude
with all of my messaging
and persona framework, and
all of my persona research
and the-- and all that stuff
that I've built, and our copy
guideline that we wrote, and
I'm gonna say, "Take this
HTML framework and m-Mad
Lib this." Like, 'cause you
know what we're all about.
But like for example,
we're gonna build a page,
a, a homepage, like, and,
and give me good copy.
And it gives me like a 75%
because of everything I've
built in and, and all the
stuff I put in, and I've taken
like Fletch PMM frameworks and
put them in there, and I've,
I've like put all these things
in there and kind of built
like my little like small
language model in Claude.
And the stuff it comes out
with is like, all right,
like we're gonna make some
tweaks of course, but like
this is really saving us.
This is making sure
that like we're not
dealing with scope creep.
that alignment was amazing
in like getting a website,
which can be such a, a bear
of a project, really off
the ground, was super cool
I love that.
Yes, and it's a really
great example of doing all
that research and creating
these really deep like
persona messaging narrative,
messaging docs, right?
That, pre-AI, these
would sometimes be
lengthy documents.
I'm not sure about, I mean,
40 pages is, like, the
longest that I've ever heard,
but mine were pretty long.
Mine would be, like, 15 pages,
and I would always say that
the purpose of these documents
is not something that we
hand out to our stakeholders.
It's for the PMM
to gain confidence.
But what I like what you're
doing is you're kind of like
you're doing this really deep
research, and you're using
that to try to, what I think
you were saying with your
story, was to try to reduce
the amount of hallucinating.
Like, the more complete
information that you're
feeding into the system, the
less likely that you'll get
some of that hallucinating and
the more accurate information
you'll get as outputs.
Is that kind of like
an accurate description
of, like, your, uh, the
reasoning behind doing
this, like, deep, building
out those deep manifestos?
Yeah, I think so.
It's like, I think PMM teams
are really changing, right?
Like I lead PMM here,
but I don't have a
team of PMMs anymore.
And really my versions
of my tabs of Claude are
kind of like my PMM team.
And so I want all of us
to be, you know, running
in the same direction.
If I can fire off a project
working on a webpage,
and then I can fire off
a project, you know, like
w- working on a slide or
like synthesizing maybe a
conversation I have with an
analyst or giving me like all
the notes I need to go into
an analyst conversation, like
I can have these different
things running at the same
time, but I have to be
able to trust that they're
all like exactly with me.
Like I'm not gonna type
in a prompt every time.
And so I just wanted to
not only me hold the system
accountable, but the system
like hold me accountable
when I have ideas that can
kind of go astray, which
happens all the time, right?
Like when we talk about value
props, it's so easy to get
into like time savings or
these like little things, and
I love that the system I built
is like, "Hey, wait a minute.
You know, that's not one of
like the-- that's not one
of the key things that we've
sort of established in this
framework," which is great.
So I love that feedback loop.
I didn't even think about
it as a feedback loop.
but that's an added bonus
that, you know, maybe be,
maybe intentional for you,
but for me would've been more
of like a happy accident.
That's… Okay, so cool.
okay, so what I wanna do
now is basically take this,
story, this case study, and
turn it into a playbook.
So let's assume that,
you're coaching me on,
on a similar situation
or challenge that I have.
Say that I've, you know, I
work at a company and it's
the parent company, but I'm
releasing a new product.
It's speaking to a completely
different persona, and I've
got ti- a tight timeline.
I'm trying to do things
really quickly within the
next, like, you know, less
than a month, um, we'll
say, two to four weeks, and
I want to operationalize
it the same way that you
did with Hero at Vivint.
What is step one?
Where do I get started
with all of this?
Yeah.
So the first thing I
did was I, I had like
the junior version of my
framework, and then I had
like the blown-out version.
So the first things I have
to kind of figure out right
away, right, is like, who
is the new person that we're
building this for, right?
And this is where some of
that Anthony Pieri stuff
gets into of like the wha-
when would I use this?
I got this 'cause I, I got
really into some of these
Exit Five podcasts, uh,
in the last year, and that
was something he jumped on
about, is like there's so
much noise in the market.
What people really wanna know
is like, "Okay, you built
this for me. When would I use
this?" And then the question
of like, who is this for?
Really into those basic
ideas, I think is huge.
And then, uh, back to
April Dunford, is like
what's the condensed
version of this framework?
It's the who it's
for, it's the problem
we're solving, right?
We've got to align how
we see the problem the
same way as the people
we're trying to sell to.
We've got to see the
problem in the same way.
what's our
differentiated value?
Of course, right?
We've got to make sure that we
define that really succinctly.
So who it's for, what's the
problem that we're solving
for that person that it's for?
What's the value
that we bring?
What makes how we're
solving it different?
what's the impact
on their lives?
What's the proof, right?
That's my next section here.
I have my kind of framework
here on the side here.
gotta have a
classic
positioning.
So that's next, the
positioning statement.
and then something like we
call benefits ladder, where
we're looking at like what's
the emotional benefits?
what's the
functional benefits?
And so we kind of like put
some of those together.
and then, uh, the last line
of it is like how to sanity
check the new message.
So for us it would be if this
doesn't help a seller prepare,
respond, or follow through
when the pressure of the
moment is on, then it doesn't
belong in what we're doing.
So that's kind of the, the
initial thing, uh, of it.
Yeah.
So your step one is
basically like do the classic
product marketing work.
Like who is it for?
Why are we doing this?
What's our differentiator?
I love the benefits ladder.
I haven't heard it
articulated that way before.
So good.
but that's very classic.
That's not like, "Hey,
let's plug stuff into AI."
I love that you
didn't start there.
You started with
like do the classic
product marketing work.
and then once you have that,
what do I do with that now?
So let's say I, I did all
those things and maybe I
used some other tools to
do that, but, is that the
manifesto or does that
go into the manifesto?
So it's funny, it's kind of
back to the feedback loop
idea where, like, that's
where we start with, like,
really defining those things.
And what, what's also funny
about this scenario is that
I'm brand new to a company,
and so I'm pulling in the
narrative and I'm kind of
like, you know, in the Google
Drive, like trying to find
all the information and, and
make sure I've got everything.
And what actually ended
up being very lucky for me
was that I had to do this
a couple of times because I
left out some very key inputs.
I, I've been at the company
now for three months.
I don't remember what those
were, but I remember doing the
big version and being like: Oh
no, I missed some key things,
and kind of going back through
and doing it all again.
of course, I'm using
AI at that point
with the help of AI.
I start with those things,
and then I'm getting into
the complete framework of
like, I wanna make sure I'm
showing in this document,
like how to use this document.
Like what's its purpose?
What's it for, right?
That's kind of my like
chapter zero of like, this
is a positioning thesis.
This is a new product.
We do have customers, but
like, like great product
marketers say, like, we really
need to, uh, have a lot more
raving fans, uh, which we'll
get, which will help us kind
of refine who this is for.
But, but I really established
this as a positioning
thesis, uh, who it's built
for and all that stuff.
And then the next 12 to 13
sections are the positioning
foundation, uh, why market
context, why now, all those
kinds of things of like, sort
of like classic narrative
ideas of like, what's the
fishbowl that we're in, right?
It's a lot of that stuff
around, which is a huge
part of our narrative of
how no one has any patience
on a sales call, right?
That's the world
that sellers are in.
That's the world
that buyers are in.
There's no patience.
There's no time for, "Let me
get back to you," or, "Let's
have another meeting." If
we start from that angle
of that true reality, then
it's like, okay, we see the
problem the same way that
the person we're trying
to sell it to does, right?
And then it's like, well,
we built something for, for
helping you in that moment.
So if we're seeing
reality on the same page.
So a lot of my manifesto
is talking about, why we're
sort of defining market
reality in that way of how
sales teams are operating,
um, how important the moment
is as a unit of value.
what's the cost of missing
that moment, right?
Like, I'm being very verbose
with all these things.
Why existing
approaches break down.
as AI raises expectations,
um, and sort of fits
around sales deals, it's
not really reducing the
risk of that key moment.
So it was really fun to kind
of get into the, um, you know,
the, uh, the Raskin style of
like, what, Uh, what Zuora did
years ago, the classic sort
of strategic narrative deck.
A lot of that was a lot of
the front-loaded part of
this manifesto to make sure
that like we are defining
the market, defining the
problem before we even
start to talk about like who
Hiro is and who Vivid is.
I love that.
Yes, and I, I'm a
huge fan of the Raskin
style of storytelling.
And what I love about this,
okay, so part of your step
one is, it was a little bit
of your onboarding, of just
kind of learning the product,
learning the company, but
that fit really nicely into
building out the, okay,
why are we doing this?
Who is it for?
What are our differentiators?
And then moving, uh, kind
of into step two, um, now
you have that outline of the
manifesto, so step two is
kind of creating that master
manifesto, and all of those
other sections that you were
mentioning that go into that,
including the filters of,
does something fit or not,
and creating that criteria
really helped you narrow down
what goes into this and what
doesn't in terms of, you know,
aspects of not necessarily
that narrative, but, like,
the manifesto itself.
so I guess once I do all of
that, assuming I've … Now
I've, I've got my manifesto,
and I'm … Now what
do I, I do with that?
Like it's, it's full
of persona information.
It's full of, you know,
it's the narrative.
It's, um, you mentioned a
couple other things that you,
like assets or documents that
were used to kind of build
out this Claude project.
But like was there anything
else that's more here, or are
we ready to move on now to
the next step of the process?
Yeah.
So the rest of the manifesto
is really we get into target
personas, we get into like
the core situation, right?
Kind of back to that
Anthony Pieri thing of
like, when do I use this?
When's the best moment?
Uh, I love drawing from that.
you know, old way, new way.
What's required to win?
Uh, that's another section.
How hero meets all this.
Differentiated value.
and then there's like
proof points, evidence,
when would I use this?
Key messaging outpoints.
That's all the rest
of the manifesto.
But the other two key
documents, we worked on
a, on a copy guideline
that's really more about
like how we write, right?
How, how, what's the
way that we write?
That's a key, that's a key
input for a cloud project.
and then the third one, the
one that I've really kind
of exploded on, and, and
let me kind of open that up
so I can talk about this,
is I started to really
build, uh, this huge persona
research doc in Google.
and that was really like
defining the quota-carrying
seller under pressure
is what that is.
Like this-- the, the
person alone in the
moment on the call.
I had some early testimonials.
I had some kind of like
early ideas of who these
people are, but then I got
to use, uh, GetWise, which
was really great for persona
research and for really
finding out what sellers are
thinking in those moments.
I went and crafted like my
list of ultimate questions
that I wanted to go ask
sellers, and GetWise is an
amazing partner for going out
and conducting that research
and finding sellers and asking
them, like, for example, in
my situation, like, " what
are the two things that you
have to do before a call?"
Like, "What's something
that you're stressed out
about during a call?" you
know, "You have five minutes
after your call ends, like
walk me through those five
minutes." And so really
getting into like what it
looks like as a seller.
And what I love about what
Vivint's doing is investing in
that, in that time, right, for
me to do that work, because we
can't just sit back and just
assume these things, right?
Like every person's
work and role in life is
changing all the time.
And so I've been in past
scenarios where we just
kind of assumed we knew
the persona, and I love
that we have like this
living, breathing persona
research, of course, very,
you know, inspired by, by
Lang and, and your-- the
episode of the podcast that
he did with you of how he's
always talking to people.
Um, he really got me into that
of like, this is something
that must continue to live.
And so we did great work
with GetWise that we're
still doing, and then also
my product team had an
account with UserTesting,
so devised a whole, um
devised a whole survey.
Um, and I go and I get
25 people, uh, every day
answering those questions for
me, bringing those results in.
I have sellers from, from
all over the world kind of
telling me about their day.
it's just amazing with these
different sources of, of
folks kind of coming in and,
and really getting this like
ultimate idea of like what
is it like to be a seller?
And then what that does
for us, sorry, this is a
long answer made longer,
is it st- helps us start
to really look at like what
are the industries where
we really are the best?
Because that's the second
assumption companies make is,
"Oh, I already know the person
I'm selling to," and then,
"Oh, I already know like where
these people work," right?
The types of companies
these people work at.
And we're really finding
incredible information
by talking to people
about these industries
that we can actually be
really great for that we
weren't fully aware of.
So, I mean, it's just great
that Vivint is investing
in all this research.
I love that.
Okay.
And I think I misunderstood
something, but I'm much
more clearer on it now.
So actually I'm very
grateful that you went
very deep on that answer.
So you started with, and
r- I do a lot of parroting
back because I wanna make
sure that I'm following the
story right and that I'm, I'm
getting the playbook right.
So you started with kind of
like an outline of the why
we're doing this, who's it
for, you know, the benefits
ladder, all of that.
Then step two is kind of like,
okay, now that turns into the
manifesto, and the manifesto
is this deep research
on, maybe a, bits of
like the market and
why now and scenarios.
But you have a completely
separate document that's just
for personas, and I love that
you do that, and I appreciate
you shouting out some tools
that are helpful for doing
that faster, and some of the
tools you mentioned I have
also used and love, and so can
attest that they are really
great tools, um, to use.
and so now that I've, I've,
let's just say that I've done
all that deep research and
like, yes, extra shout-out
for Lang because it's, he's
so right in the number… You
have to be constantly talking
to customers, and it's, you
know, before AI, it was really
hard to find time to do that.
You had to make time
for it, and it was
quite a lot of effort.
Now you can have these
always-on systems and
be constantly, maybe not
necessarily, FaceTime with a
customer, but at least having
those always-on surveys while
supplementing with smaller,
more intimate one-on-one
conversations is so helpful.
so back to like, you know,
actually I guess the next
step would be like building
the Claude project, and I
just wanna make sure that
I have like the documents
that I should have in the
Claude projects, right?
You had the manifesto, which
was like the deep research
on like the product and the
market, um, and the company
and why it all fits so
well together and why now.
and then I'm not sure if this
was in the, in the manifesto
or if it's in the persona
doc, but then you had like,
you talked about the persona
doc, and you talked about like
very deep research like around
emotional benefits and, um,
functional benefits, but then
also scenarios where you win
and use cases where you win
and all of that good stuff.
And then you also had like
a tone of voice document,
like a writing style
document, which was helpful.
You had the narrative that
your CMO already got with all
the executives in the room.
Those are the four
that I could think of.
Is there anything else
that should go into
this Claude project?
No, those are the right
ones, and I, I don't wanna
take us on a tangent, but
you're reminding me of
something really important
with this persona research.
Like, what's great is
like in this day, persona
research is no longer
like a vanity project.
What's amazing is that I
can take 20 documents of
transcripts of conversations
and like spreadsheets that
I get from user testing and
like all the downloads from
GetWise, and I can throw
them all in to, a separate
project and be like, "Okay,
tell me all about sellers."
Like I no longer have to
like sit there late at
night like taking notes off
of like, I mean, what-- I
don't know what people did
like 15 years ago, but it's
like everything just comes
together and gives me like
the, the full picture.
And that to me is great
because what I'm doing now
is I'm, I'm coming with
gifts to my product team.
that's what's so funny about
product marketing is like
one of the core things that
we need to do as a company
is be giving market signal
to the product team, right?
And so now we can do it in
this like really great way.
So, but you laid it all
out, like it's the messaging
framework, it's the persona
doc, it's the copy guideline.
Um, these are all the big
players in my Claude project.
And then what I'm doing is,
'cause I'm always nervous
about hallucinations or
something, is I'm like
taking my persona research
and I'm saying, "Okay, how's
my messaging framework?
Like, are we still right
on? Are we still talking
the right language?"
And So
everything's getting
like these like feedback
loops that I'm doing.
I'm always kind of doing
like a, like a BS test
on everything, like
making sure everything's
like still copacetic.
I love that.
Question about the
feedback loops.
is that purely human, or do
you have AI help you or assist
with the feedback loops?
Well, it's funny.
I'll do things like I'll
take my project and I'll take
a whole bunch of research
and I'll be like, "Here's a
bunch of research. What do
you think about the messaging
framework?" And I'll kind of
get like a, a summary back.
And then I'll look at
the summary and I'll
get to kind of critique
it and judge it, right?
And I'll be like,
"Actually, that's okay.
Okay, give me a couple line
items to change there."
And, and so there is that
discerning eye, and it makes
me very grateful to be at
this stage in my career
where I've got some years of
experience in this field and
I can sort of see how things
are feeling and I can, I can
see where, where, you know,
I've got my areas of drift.
The tools aren't
perfect either.
Claude's got a
little bit of drift.
And so kind of working
together and kind of
finding that spot.
but I think part of what makes
it all work and w- I think why
we're so lucky if you've got,
um, a little bit of experience
is like that you can kind
of see that, that space
of where, uh, where to fix
things and where to le- let
things go and, and you know,
it's the writer and then you
get to be the editor, Right.
Right.
Absolutely.
And I love that, um, you
called out n- the experience
that's required to have that
discerning eye when you're
critiquing the AI output.
and it's so valuable.
I say that to all, junior
PMMs or PMMs who are just
making-- or y- if you're
making a career pivot or
whatever, to make sure that
you build the craft and then
use AI to 10X, your value.
But you have to have the
experience so you know what
good looks like, so that when
Claude or ChatGPT, whoever,
like whatever AI tool of
choice gives you a deliverable
or an output, you can say
like, "No, not good enough.
No, that's not right?
That's missing XYZ." So I
totally agree with that.
okay, so let's get
back to our playbook.
So I have the Claude project.
it's built with all of
those, core documents.
What do I do now?
I can just use it for
whatever kind of like
deliverables I want to use.
Like give me, give me some
examples of like how you
used your, Claude project
to get some deliverables
for this big shift for
the company's narrative.
Yeah, absolutely.
So before I was able to really
go use it, had to get all
that stakeholder approval.
So what I did was I took this
framework and I threw it,
into, uh, make me a deck.
Like make me a deck that
argues for how important
this was and let me
get executive sign-off
from everybody, right?
So it's so important to
get that weigh-in from the
different folks, like from
the product team, like
are the claims accurate?
From the sales team, like
does this match how my
conversations are going?
Like from leadership, does
this reflect our strategy?
And then from the design
team too of like, can we
really express this visually?
I own the framework, but
it's so important that
everyone's bought in, right?
You've got to
have that buy-in.
And so that meeting
went really well.
I really, uh, focused on
the sort of that image
of like, ducks kind of
flying in formation and
how important that is.
And I'm such a big believer
that like a good company
has a message and a
differentiated value, but
a great company, has the
ability to make everybody
fly in the same formation.
That's that extra thing.
And what I get excited about
is like, I feel like it's
never been easier to have that
formation because we've got
these guardrails that we're
working with and these, these
tools that kind of have that
little bit of smarts to them.
I mean, they're, they're
getting better all the
time, but like it's so
exciting to be able to,
uh, you know, 3X my work
with something like Claude.
And, um, you know, I'm
definitely not a person who
is building like autonomous
agents or things that are just
like going out and doing work.
I really do have
to be involved.
and when I write a blog
using these tools, I am,
you know, giving my thought
leadership to the tool,
tweaking, making sure it
is what I want it to be.
But, back to your question
and give you some examples of
what we do, you know, I can go
into an analyst conversation
and say, "Hey, I'm gonna
be talking to an analyst at
Forrester. I wanna be really
clear about what we do with
them, uh, to them, and I
wanna like get their advice
and I wanna see how they
see the market, but I want
to, you know, really clearly
represent what we are and
get feedback back from them."
And that's the kind of work
that would take you all day,
and instead it takes you,
you know, 15, 20 minutes,
'cause of course I go back
and forth a couple times.
But then Another amazing
thing about the research
is you know, I can, I can
write a blog on why the
moment is so important.
But what I love is what,
what's better about that,
what Google and the LLMs wanna
see, is they wanna see all the
research I've done informing
that opinion on our blog.
And so, of course, all of
this has started with Claude
and like I get a first draft,
I read it, I make changes.
So we're kind of like
going back and forth,
new draft, new draft.
When I get it to a pretty good
point, then I give it an edit.
but I love that it's like
always sort of running off
the DNA of who we are, how
we talk, what our message is.
It's like that's
the starting point.
sort of a side tangent.
The product that we built
is for sellers on the call.
It's of course it's built
on AI, and one of the big
things we built was this
sales reasoning model.
And what this is doing is
something that we, uh, that
we talk about a lot, is
that it's helping sellers
avoid hallucinations because
it's keeping you, away from
like the hops that happen
when you are too far from
the source material, right?
When you kind of go
too far down the line,
and they all do it.
And so what's amazing about
this reasoning model that
we built into our product
is that it's really keeping
those hallucinations at bay.
And I think I'm doing a
little bit of the same
thing in a marketing angle
by always having this
framework as my starting
point for everything I do.
Yeah, it's-- keeping
everything grounded, and
I loved the visual that
you explained when you
went into that stakeholder
meeting of ducks flying
together synchronously.
Yeah
it's a strong visual, and
it's one that y- you know,
I would say everyone, every
millennial or '90s kid who
remembers Mighty Ducks, that's
Yeah
that's exactly where
my brain went to.
But it's such a strong,
like, you know, spirited,
rallying the team, getting
everybody on board.
I imagine that was a helpful
anecdote as you're trying
to explain your thinking.
And you mentioned, uh, I
really appreciate, too,
that you brought in the
reasons why you think
that meeting went so well.
And a lot of that was because
you did the foundational
work in the manifesto, and
you were just able to do it
quicker with, um, this Claude
project that you built.
So now coming back to, and,
and I also appreciate the
examples that you gave, too.
I can attest, like prepping
for like a, a Gartner analyst
call can take a long time.
So brilliant use of
your Claude project.
Um, okay.
So coming back to
our playbook, I have
the Claude project.
Now I, um, you mentioned
the feedback loops.
Okay, so I build out like
the deck, um, for like,
you know, all the things
that I wanna do with this
big narrative and like the,
the shift for the company.
I get buy-in from all
of my stakeholders
and the executives.
Is, is that kind of
the end of the story?
Now I just… Is
it launch time?
I mean, what do I do next?
Yeah.
So kind of what's
happening next?
is, yeah, you've got
this framework, the team
loves it, and now, like,
it's going into action.
So we're putting it into
our booth messaging because
we're doing a ton of events
in the next couple months.
We're putting it into our
website 'cause we just
launched that whole website.
So like, for example, on the
website, those pages that
are really tough, right?
Where it's like, "Hey,
we need a page talking to
sellers. We need a page
talking to sales managers.
We need a page comparing
us to Gong, comparing us
to Agent Force." All those
things become so much easier
with Claude when I can go
find, like in a comparison
page that I love, right?
'Cause there's so many
great examples out there.
Like we all follow the,
the great, um, you know,
product marketing, uh,
emails and stuff, and
sometimes they, they give you
incredible comparison pages.
So you go get these comparison
pages, you download that,
you throw that into your
project, and you just
say, "I want a comparison
page for Hiro," and boom.
And it's like, cool,
I have a first draft.
Like, because it knows
who I am and it knows what
I want to get to, right?
It's got the A and the
Z, which is so cool.
So that's a really great
example of like how to
use this kind of thing,
um, is in all these pages.
And then, but also we're
going out and we're doing
billboards and we're
doing stuff like that.
And so that's where the
research thing comes back in,
because I can come up with a
billboard idea, and I think
something that we're probably
gonna talk about in a little
bit is one of the pieces
where humans are still very
important in what we're doing.
Uh, and that's a big one.
When it comes to creative
ideas, I had to come
up with the billboards
completely myself.
Like AI is not going to
come up with s- five perfect
words to put on a billboard.
Like that's the human touch.
They're just, they're,
they don't get puns and pop
culture and the visceral
reactions that humans have.
They don't get those
things, but they can, you
know, they can help you
write a blog on whether you
should build an AI sales
teammate or buy one, right?
And, and they can sort of
help you with like long form
content, and you still need
to apply a flavor to that.
Uh, but that's what's
interesting, I think.
That's kind of that, that
back and forth difference.
I totally agree.
Yes, like having the human
touch on copy editing, and
especially on short form copy.
To your point, AI is
really good at like hacking
systems, and I don't mean
that in a creepy way.
I mean that in like,
uh, knowing how to put
together a blog to optimize
for SEO, AEO, et cetera.
That is something that I
think AI would be really
good in assisting you with.
But knowing the exact
words to put on a billboard
that you're not gonna have
tracking metrics on that.
Like there's not… I mean,
maybe you'd put up like a, uh,
if you did something really
crazy, you know, maybe there'd
be a way to like, you know,
with a QR code or something.
Not saying you'd ever
do that, but generally
speaking, very hard to
track the, um, you know,
outputs of, of billboards.
So I think things that are
measurable, trackable with a
digital footprint, those are
things that AI is gonna be
like probably better able to
assist you with, because at
the end of the day, it's all
like prediction models, right?
So that's, that's why
I would lean heavier
into for like more like
the long form content.
So it makes perfect sense.
I have a quick question
that I, I should have
asked you earlier.
When you went into that
meeting with, um, the
stakeholders, did you…
What you were presenting
to them, was it like the
framework that you built
with Claude with specifically
like the narrative
that you were driving?
Like what ex- or, or was
it just in general, was
it not really Claude and
the AI tools, it was kind
of like just the narrative
and more about the story?
this was a pretty short deck.
This was like nine slides.
my first slide was really
reminding the team that
we had already aligned
on a strategic narrative,
which is huge, right?
Come into the room and
show like, "Look, we all
know where we're going."
What a huge step that is.
What a lucky step that I have
to start with in a company.
I have that,
that's number one.
Number two, I have an awesome
CMO who has a huge product
marketing background of his
own, so kind of knows what
good looks like with this.
Uh, and then we have a team
who's like willing to invest a
product marketer's like first
month in doing this work.
So those are huge.
So it's just reminding them
that like we're starting
from the same spot.
The next thing is
kind of talking about
some of the urgency.
So what's funny about a
deck like this is it's kind
of like its own strategic
narrative deck, where I'm
kind of talking about the
threats in the world, right?
And one of those threats is
like how LLMs are gonna define
us and how we have to show up
super consistently, to make
sure that we're showing up
in the right way when people
t- uh, ask about us in LLM.
So that was something
we didn't really talk
about in this episode,
but that's a huge one.
And then getting into how
Ooh, I really love that one
Yeah.
Is-- A positioning framework
is how we are going
to solve that problem.
Um, that's my third slide.
My next slide is a one-pager
on what the framework
is, where it's the market
condition, who it's for,
the situation we're solving,
what our positioning is,
what makes us different.
Like, that's it.
Just one page.
Everyone stares at it,
everyone feels good about it.
and then my next slide
was kind of a comparison
thing of what that
looks like in practice.
And so it was a
comparison slide, a table.
I think tables are always
great on a, on a deck.
Um, but like a before and
after kind of table where
it's like, what's the
market doing now, right?
Most tools are
recording your call.
Gong records your call.
Great.
What are we doing?
We're in the call
with you, right?
So it's like this sort of
comparison thing about like
what we're going after, the,
um, what's the status quo that
we're really having to, uh,
face when it comes to like
how we talk about ourselves
versus things like, like Gong.
Um, so the next one is
kind of laying out how the
different teams are gonna
use this framework, right?
Like the executive staff
invested in this, so
how's it gonna assimilate
out to the team?
And I sort of lay out how
sales is gonna use it, how
the marketing team is using
it, how the product team
is gonna be using it to
kind of develop roadmap and
features and all those things.
And so that was kind of that
thing I laid out earlier
about, you know, the shared
test of does it help a
seller prepare, respond,
or follow through when
the moment is on, right?
That's kind of like one
of our big litmus tests.
Um, the next slide in this
executive buy-in framework
was, you know, how we keep
the gap closed between
what the LLMs think we are
and what we actually are.
And so it was kind of
laying out how we're
gonna do that, right?
Where we're gonna use this
system, what the content
is that we're gonna build,
how we're gonna reinforce
these things every quarter.
It's kind of like a contract
to the executive staff
to show them that this
is not just like a, a, a
dog and pony show, right?
This is not just
I love that
work.
Yeah.
And it's like, I'm gonna
really show you how
this sustains through
the rest of the year.
I'm always trying to be very
mindful of the company's
investment in me, right?
I think that's huge.
Um, because that's
really what it is.
Like I'm a-- This is kind of
a weird analogy for you, but
like I'm a musician when I'm
not working, and I'm buying
equipment and I'm trying
equipment, and I'm looking
at those things as like, does
this make me sound better?
Does this make me
perform better?
And if it doesn't, I gotta
get rid of it, right?
And so I think of a
company and I think of
an eStaff as looking at
every employee like that.
Like, I'm gonna invest in
this resource and I want it
to make this company grow,
not just for them to just
do work I'm paying for.
And so, so it's important
for me always to make sure
that like this investment
is being looked at as,
as a sustained one.
Um, and then the next slide
I really love the way that, I
really love the way that you
articulated that with like
the investment in the employee
versus like feeling really
transactional, like I'm paying
you for work to be done.
I love that.
I think that's really, um,
a smart way for PMMs to be
thinking about how to talk
about their work with their
employers
it's not-- 'Cause that's
what's funny about business
is, is like, you know, back
to my funny analogy, it's
like if I go buy a guitar
pick that I don't like,
I'm gonna get rid of it,
uh, and it's not personal.
It's like, well, it's just
not working for the job
that I'm trying to do.
And so I think every employee
at a company has to look at
it that way, is like, I'm, I'm
pushing the business forward.
I'm pushing the stakeholder
holder value forward.
And so the first
slide is about how we
keep the gap closed.
And then the next one, 'cause
a, a, a leader's always
gonna ask this question, is
like, "Okay, well, how do
we know this is working?"
That's kind of my last slide.
Like, okay, these are
the things we're gonna
do, and now how are we
gonna measure you, right?
So, so that deck was huge
and it, and it went great,
and so we've been using
this framework ever since
I love that.
Okay, so back to our playbook.
I, let's just say I,
I borrow your outline
for my slide deck.
I, my call with my, or my
meeting with my executives
and my stakeholders
goes really well.
Now it's just
execution time, right?
Like, we're using that
Claude project, we're
generating those web pages,
we're building out whatever
resources we need, all
within the guidelines and
the, um, you know, with
those foundational documents
of the Claude project.
But then also still using
human touch for the, you
know, parts of copywriting
where you just need to.
Is that the end
of this playbook?
Is there anything
else you'd add?
And then if not, I guess,
like, take us home with,
like, one piece of advice
that you want PMMs to walk
away with from doing an,
um, a big project like this
Yeah.
So it helps me-- I think
one of the big things
that this helps me with
is context switching.
I've, I've kind of realized.
So in this big launch, right,
I've got to update Crunchbase
and Salesforce AppExchange
and G2 and all these different
websites that talk about Hiro.
And having this project
allows me to go in and
say, "Hey, I need the
120-character version of Hiro.
I need the 300-character
version of Hiro." Like,
and I get like that first
draft immediately, right?
So like I'm not getting like
death by a thousand cuts doing
all these like small projects.
Um, but another one, I wanted
to talk about another one too
that I, I thought was real--
Okay, so here's another one.
We-- With this launch,
we wanted to come out
with videos, right?
Uh, I thought this was a
really great, uh, idea from
my boss, where we were gonna
have a one-minute explainer
video, a three-minute
explainer, and a five-minute
explainer video, right?
And so it's fun to think about
the script of those three
videos because something I
learned from a past boss is
like your video has to start
from just a plain page script,
like with all the moments.
It's got to just be a, a
boring script on a page
and then you go find
the talent, you find the
screens, the music, all the
different things, but you
all got to start from there.
And so that was a really fun
project to start from the
framework, excuse me, and then
be like, "Okay, what's th-
what do these three look like?
Like what changes from one to
three to five minutes," right?
Like what do we bring in more?
What do we explain more?
Um, and all of it is just
operating from that DNA.
It's like I'm working with an
assistant and we're on like
the exact same page, and so
we could kind of like refine.
And so I get an output,
I give the feedback, and
then I get a new version
and it's great and it, it
allows us to work so quickly.
I mean we did these
three videos in a week
because we had incredible
people on the videos.
We had a really great
sales engineer and a really
great sales leader who
like did the demos for me.
We had a really
great video person.
But what was awesome was if
you think about a project
length, all that front stuff
was like done in like a day.
So it was like, "Okay,
I'm doing my part today.
I'm getting it to other
people fast." Everything
is speeding up because the
product marketing piece
is like done a lot quicker
while I'm doing other things
at the exact same time.
So that's what's cool is
So
that.
big advocate for doing all
that foundational work,
building out the Claude
project, and then think more
creatively about how you
can continue to amplify your
work and your value with
all that goodness that you
had put in at the front end
with the deep research and
the, the 40-page manifesto
and the, um, including
the persona documents.
All such good stuff.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
Love this case study.
It's truly one of my
favorites most recently
because it's just so
fascinating and so impressive.
Thank you so much, Ryan.
I loved it.
Um, appreciate you going
into so much detail on it.
Um, now it's time for the
next segment of our show.
This is the
messaging critique.
This is where, as product
marketing experts, we get to
analyze real-world messaging.
And the fun part is, Ryan, you
get to pick the company that
we critique the messaging
for, or it doesn't have to be
the company messaging, could
also be campaign messaging.
Um, okay, so
quick round rules.
Try to pick a company that
you feel pretty comfortable
talking about and that you
know the market pretty well.
Um, some- then tell us what
the messaging is, just quick
overview of what the company
does, and then tell us what
you're loving about it,
what's standing out really
well, and then something
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently,
and then we'll brainstorm,
iterate on how that PMM can
take it to the next level
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, it's funny, I brought
up a page on my screen here.
This is a site that I love
that I haven't actually
looked at in a while.
So it's a site that
I've loved in the past.
It's a site that I haven't
seen in a little bit, and
so it feels like a great
chance to like see like what
are they saying now, right?
Let's do it.
Reveal the company.
Who are we looking at?
Okay, cool.
So I love what UserGems does.
I love their site.
I love who they work with.
I
User gems
Have you s- have you used
it recently on the pod?
I have not, I have not.
So one of my other podcast
guests at the, at the
very beginning of the
year, Julian Sauvage, he,
we critiqued UserGems,
but that was months ago.
So I'm also curious to
see how it has changed.
Let's, this'll be fun.
Okay
so UserGems, guys, if you
wanna follow a- along, it's
U-S-E-R-G-E-M-S.com, UserGems
Yeah.
So do you want me to
share my screen or
what, what should we do?
yeah, sure.
Go for it.
Let's do it,
so let's check it out, right?
When I get into this page,
boy, there's a lot that
I look at on this page.
So the AI command center
for outbound and ABM.
Okay.
I, I don't love it, so
what I'm gonna do next is
I'm gonna go to the next
slide, which is fine.
Uh, one place for all
your signals, data,
and prioritization.
Deploy AI agents to run
personalized outbound
and ABM at scale.
Money back guarantee.
Okay, that's great
'cause they're kind of
like clarifying for me
a little bit, right?
'Cause AI command
center is tough.
Like it's, uh, it, it, it's
like kind, it's kind of a,
it's a little bit of the
all-in-one thing that we
try to get away from, right?
That
It's too fluffy.
Yes.
Yeah, it still leaves me
a little bit like, I, I
understand the pressure
that B2B companies are
under with articulating
their innovations with AI.
I-
totally get that.
Um, and so it's tough.
But throwing it in, and,
and I'm sure this, I'm
probably being a little bit
more flippant than it, than
was intended, but it feels
a little too fluffy for me
and it, it, it causes me to
immediately think like, "Uh,
are you trying to be bigger
than you actually are?"
It, it, it, it's moving
away from differentiator, I
guess, is what I'm saying.
And to your point,
like being too, too
much to too many folks.
Okay, so I don't want to
get into, get into it, but,
um, what's your critique?
What's working really
Well, with some of this?
Well, here's what's funny,
like the more I-- 'cause
I just pulled this up
and just got it fla- kind
of like you just did.
We just got it kind of
flashed at us, like this
wasn't something that we
prepared for, you and I. So
the more I'm it, the
more things are starting
to sort of s- poke out
to me a little bit.
So it says here, "Trusted by
the best revenue teams." And
so now I have a question of
who is using this product?
Like who on the team,
revenue team, like okay,
so who on the team?
And I come back up to here and
I say, okay, the AI command
center for outbound and ABM.
So that must be like your
SDRs, I think are using this.
So one place for your
signals, data, and
prioritization, deploy
agents to run personalized
outbound and ABM at scale.
My question is, are
my SDRs using it?
Are my salespeople using it?
Are you replacing
those people, and is
a leader using it?
That's where I'm a little
confused about who is
using this in what world
or size of company, right?
Do you-- Is that
how you feel too?
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
I know exactly where
you're going with this.
And the other thing is
that, when they say the best
revenue teams, um, and then
they have it looks like a
list of logos down there,
they're being a bit-- they're
trying to be complimentary
to their customers because
they're the, the best teams.
But if I'm not a
customer, does that
mean I'm not the best?
Like, it's not a big deal.
It's very picky.
Okay, keep going with where
you're-- with what you're
thinking on some of this.
Yeah.
So it, it's a little, um,
it's a little bit-- What it
feels like to me is it reminds
me of another homepage that
we can pull up real quick.
And the vibe I get is like,
"We don't have to be that
clear because we already
got customers, and we
already have it going on.
So we can just sort of say,
like, whatever we want."
And I think, uh…
Okay, obviously that's
not Gong's website.
Uh, oh.
All right.
This is what live
is all about, right?
We're gonna find out
what
I know,
URL actually is.
All right.
Gong.io.
Okay.
Don't know what gong.com was.
Luckily it wasn't
anything too weird.
Um, so
Gong.io.
I, I forgot
but let's look at this one.
These guys are so amazing at,
like, needing to say a whole
lot.
the number one.
All right.
So you call
yourself number one.
who's like-- It's almost like
when the car companies give
themselves awards, right?
It's like, it's
a little funny.
For the operating system
to who?
Yes
It, it's funny that they say
this because operating system
for revenue teams, like to me
that would be your CRM, right?
Like that's where your, your
point of truth is, and we all
know who the big CRMs are.
Um, so that's what's kind of
funny about that headline.
And then, um, this, this is
just sort of a funny thing.
I don't know what
it really means.
And then
built help your
the little a- yeah
team… Yeah, sorry.
So, so, uh, let me, let me,
uh, throw, throw the mic back.
You, you, you jump in please
Yeah
Well, so what I'm, what I'm
thinking when we go to, like,
UserGems and they-- and it's
kind of getting back to that
really top-level messaging of,
like, the AI command center,
and then we go to Gone, we're
like, "The number one AI
operating system." To me, I'm
like, what's the difference?
What's the d- like, I'm
sure there is a difference,
but what I'm getting at is
that, like, I think these
B2B companies are under a
lot of pressure to bring in
this, like, AI speak into
some of this, like, really
top-level, um, narrative, and
It it ends up getting very
like, uh, like a, like too
fluffy, I guess, is what I'm
saying, and it confuses me.
And that could be okay if
it's, if you provide with
some, like, intrigue, and
it's like, okay, well maybe
I wanna look a little deeper.
So, um, and, and this could
also be that I'm not the
target persona for some of
these, but I, I, I guess,
like, my, initial gut
reaction is like, "Tell me
more," because I don't…
It's not quite saying enough
for me to feel-- It's, it's
feeling more of like a, like
rolling my eyes, like, okay,
more, more AI stuff being,
you know, shoved in there.
So but that's kind of my
first take on, like, something
that I wish the PMM would've
considered differently is,
like, let's lean heavier
into differentiators
than, than trying to run
with a me too, I have AI.
Look, look, look, I have AI.
Like, y- you know?
So that's my first reaction,
but I've only been looking
at it for, like, two minutes.
So what
about you guys?
You're kind of,
like, looking at the
difference between these.
What, what's your take on it?
Yeah, it's funny, like I love
looking at the flow of a site
and then we kind of talk about
some of the stuff on the top.
So like you get in here
and what Gong is clearly
trying to do is say,
"Look, we are no longer
just what we used to be.
We are, we are AI.
We are AI." Like, and then
what they're doing here
is they're saying, "Let's
show you some AI," Right
We're gonna have this
auto-playing thing right here.
What Gong used to have was
this customer tracker, like
right up on the top, because
it's kind of like the, um,
the delivery to the promise.
They're gonna say they're
the number one and then they
kind of have to have, "We're
number one because we got
5,000 customers," right?
And like look at the
size of these names.
We have Google and Dropbox and
ADP and like everybody that
you would want as a customer.
So it's kind of they've
got this and then they
just kind of stuck this
sort of like quick, you
know, AI thing on here,
which is cool, um, I guess.
Uh, and then they, and
then they're right into
like here's how people
are using it, right?
Customer, uh, customer
proof sort of down the
line and things folks
probably aren't reading a
whole lot past this point.
Um, and then getting back
to this one, we kind of
talked about this top layer
and it's, it's cool they're
doing the customer proof
thing right here off the top.
I love this idea that
companies-- This is kind
of a more modern design
where people are putting
the case studies like
right up in the, right up
in the top area, right?
That's like the new thing
is like have your logos and
the case studies together.
That's very cool.
companies are switching
from 6sense to UserGem.
I like that.
They are like planting a
flag here.
This, it's very bold.
I'm really excited to click
this see the comparison,
uh, link right here.
I think we should click it
The other thing that I like
about this is that, like,
if you were new to UserGems,
I think UserGems is a
smaller company from 6sense.
I might be wrong.
I think it is.
So it, uh, it gives some
context into, like, who
you should compare to us or
compare, sorry, who you, who
you should compare us to.
and so it gives the customer
that context, and then
it also, like, states
the alternative of like,
"Hey, you're using this,
like, consider using us."
So I, I like where that could
evolve into in terms of, you
know, maybe like competitive
campaigns or something
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a very--
I like that insight.
And it's funny, on this
page you get here, and I
actually have a problem
with this Book Demo button.
I think when you think
of, like, a person's
flow in this moment like
you just said, they're
like, "Oh, I know 6sense.
What's UserGems do?
I'm gonna click this link.
This sounds spicy."
I think right here is
a wasted opportunity.
They should have something
like, um, "Get a video
walkthrough of the
difference," or, like, give
me, more for, like, I'm not
gonna book a demo right now.
Like, I, I, I wouldn't
be surprised if this ever
gets clicked in, on this
page in this moment, right?
Like, not happening.
Yeah
What I-- This is a really good
piece of insight, and I would
love to see UserGems take
this to the next level, where
instead of they're doing,
like, feature comparisons,
they're like, bring
customers more into this.
Like, go do some us-re-
UserGems, you probably already
have some of this research,
but, like, what are your
customers who are switching,
what are they saying?
You don't necessarily
have to name them here.
Get their stories and see
what you can do with that
in terms of content rather
than doing, like, a direct
feature comparison, 'cause
I think that's a classic
PMM trap is getting when you
do competitive intelligence
is the feature comparison.
And like, yes, that
there are times when,
like, that does matter.
There are table stake
features that, you know,
your customers require.
Like, yes, of course.
But it's more than, more
often than not, there's
more to the story than
just the feature comparison
Yeah, it's tough, right?
You're, you're reminding
me of one of my favorite
business books I've read
lately, and that's the April
Dunford "Sales Pitch" book,
where a big thing, and it's
something that we really put
into our first call deck.
I was so excited that the
team kind of allowed me to
get inspired by her book
and then, like, they were
already on the same page of,
like, how we started off.
What folks are really
looking for you to do on
a page like this is show
that they can trust you,
show that you can be like
a market advisor, right?
Like April's analogy is like,
I went in to buy a toilet for
my remodeled bathroom, and
I need that salesperson to
bring me along on the journey
of like what this market is
and why I need what I need.
If you kind of give someone
a, a table where it's
a bunch of greens and
reds, you're not really
getting that trust, right?
From, from what's
happening here.
You're, not showing that like
everybody's got their place
in the market and maybe what
I need is, is this, and,
and 6sense is good at this.
So I think something I'd love
to see in this table is like
where 6sense shines, and they
are doing it a little bit here
in this advertising section.
Um, but I think that's
something kind of funny
and, and, uh, I don't know.
That, that that's what I
think makes a great comparison
page is like you are a m-
a trusted market advisor
I love that perspective.
I love it.
Okay, so is this how you'd
like to see UserGems kind of
take their storytelling and
narrative to the next level?
Is there anything
else to the story here
Gosh, let's, uh, let's go
back to the front here.
I still, I still really,
uh, love what they're doing
and, uh, we kind of get in
here into agent, AI agents,
into these solutions pages.
It's funny, I haven't looked
at this page in a long time.
Um, but customers,
you know, you just go
right to that page.
Hall of Gems, I'm not
really sure what that is.
And then they've
got resources.
Here's what's funny, and
it's something that, that I
think every company should
really rethink when it comes
to resources, is that no
one jumps to a site, goes
into a resource center
and says, "I feel like a
classroom today," or, "I
feel like a webinar today."
And like, we've got to get
out of like the type sort of
being that front door, right?
Like it's, we've got to come
back to like your-- I know
this is like a dramatic word,
but like all anybody cares
about are their problems and
what your product is trying
to do is like help them
survive their problems, right?
And so I think there's
like this reimagining of
a resource center where it
can be, um, the, the, uh,
sort of the input points
to solving their problems.
And they probably have that?
if I click into this.
Um, you know, now they're kind
of into that space of like
reach out to past champions
when they change jobs, like
revise closed opportunities.
Like these might be
those examples for user
gems, but like what are
the, what are like the
headlines that someone
would actually care about?
What do you think about that?
I love that.
And I'm, I'm bringing us
back to what I said a few
minutes ago around go talk
to your customers again.
You probably already had
this research, so go look
at it again, and how can you
repackage what you already are
hearing from your customers?
And I love what you're
saying about, um, reimagining
resources for your customers,
but use their voice to do it.
So, like, how can you
repackage their own
experiences, their pains,
their frustrations, their
hopes, their dreams,
repackaging it into content
and assets that will help
them continue through that
journey into discovering
UserGems and m- maintaining
a, you know, a good, a healthy
journey to becoming a customer
Yeah, absolutely
I love it.
Okay.
Well, shout out to any
UserGems PMMs out there.
We, you've got some fans,
and we are very intrigued
in how you could evolve your
narrative and storytelling.
Um, okay.
So Ryan, I always like to
make space on this podcast
for a moment of gratitude
because in product marketing,
we never get to where we
are without learning and
growing from each other.
Um, and we're all
better for it.
So thank you so much for
coming on this podcast,
sharing your case study,
and you s- you've been
so generous with your
playbook and your time.
So just ge- a genuine
thank you so much.
I really appreciate it,
and it's the, gonna benefit
the whole PMM community
Yeah.
Thank you.
I mean, if I have gratitude
for some folks, um, you
know, I, I did my-- I, I
left my last role and I got
a new role within a couple
months, and there were some
people who really helped
me, uh, with that shift.
There was, uh, Jonathan
Pipik, I think I'm saying
his last name correctly.
Uh, really great
marketer.
He gave me really good advice
on, like, my portfolio.
Philippe from GetWise has
always been, uh, you know, in
my corner, which is amazing.
Uh, my old boss, Joe
Andrews, is a product
marketer from Zuora, who
was the CMO at SupportLogic,
amazing product marketer.
Uh, Gerard Green, my current
CMO, is, uh, has, he has a
big presence on LinkedIn,
great product marketer.
Um, and then, you know, three
kind of influencers I love,
Dave Gerhardt and Exit5,
of course, we're all fans.
April Dunford, who I've
mentioned probably 10
times, Anthony Pieri.
I mean, these are
great voices to follow.
Uh, Jason Oakley's,
uh, email newsletter.
I know he has a, a
partner, I can't think
of his name right now.
Their newsletter is great.
Your, your, uh,
podcast is great.
So it's so fun to be in a
space that is always changing,
and then, you know, I get
to have a day job and then
learn from all of you.
So thank you.
Yeah.
Isn't it so great?
I mean, our community of
product marketers is just
filled with givers who
give their time and their
talent and mentorship.
It's so lovely.
I love those shout-outs,
and some of those folks
either have been on the
podcast before or they've
been mentioned before in
the moment of gratitude.
So, um, it's just further
testament that they
really are awesome.
Okay, and this is my
last question for you.
Ryan.
Where else can we access
your expertise if, uh, if
listeners wanna reach out?
Yeah, just LinkedIn.
Uh, I'm on LinkedIn.
Um, I think I've been
on LinkedIn so long, I
think my URL on LinkedIn
is just /radcliffe.
Um, so I think it's
been like 20 years
I've been on LinkedIn.
Uh, so yeah, that's,
Too long.
I, I have a portfolio
but it's out.
I made a, I made a Notion
and, uh, it was really
fun building all that, but
since I started here, I
haven't touched it, so it's
It changes so quickly.
Yes, it changes
really quickly.
So awesome.
Well, again, thank
you so much, Ryan.
And hey, PMM listeners, if
you like this episode, please
share it with a PMM friend.
I'd be so grateful if you
would leave us a review.
It helps so much
with our reach.
And thank you so much
for coming on this
journey with us today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.