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A conversation at the intersection of Christian belief and culture where we aim to find Jesus in the way we think about and respond to our world.
Hi, welcome to another episode of Found, a conversation at the intersection of Christian faith and culture, where we always aim to find Jesus in the way we react and respond to our world. My name is Linda Tokar, and I'm joined by my friend and co-host, Brandon Bathau. Now, this is the fourth episode episode in our series that explores how Jesus followers engage in the public sphere. In episode two, we explored the approach we called separation as faithfulness. In episode 3, we dug into the sacred secular or two kingdoms view. And in this episode, we turn our focus to an approach that we're calling societal transformation. One of Bara's observations that was part of the study I quoted in episode 2 speaks to the potential power of a vote. Just listen to this. He said in 2020 the gap between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden was just 7 million votes. The real story lies in the margins of victory in swing states where an average of 60,000 votes per state determined nearly 40% of the electoral votes needed to win. In this context, the 32 million regular churchgoers who won't vote in 2024 is a gamecher. What this means, friends, is that faithful Christians still have the ability to shape the landscape of our nation. It's still possible. I sense a glimmer of hope in this approach. So, Brandon, let's get right into it. Help us understand this view called societal transformation.
All right, here we go. Third one. Hey, if you are with us still and you've listened in order
of all of these,
you made it. We're doing We got a lightning round at the end of this episode
about applying all of these things and what they would show up in hot topic issues like abortion and immigration and voting for president and we'll kind of hopefully pull all the pieces together with that.
Good to have you with us.
Transformationalist view. Let's go back to the imagination of two circles.
Okay.
Okay. So, separation view, kingdom of God. kingdom of this world. They're far apart from each other. You are a little stick figure. You get to choose which one you want to be in. Then we have the two kingdoms view, the secular sacred. In this one, the two kingdom, the two kingdoms, one uh circle is kingdom of God. The other circle kingdom of this world. Your foot is in each. They're kind of next to each other. They're not overlapping. In this view, imagine the kingdom of God as a circle within the bigger circle of the kingdom of this world
with little arrows pointing of it like taking more space and more ground.
In this view, the kingdom of God is a beach head,
a beach head of God's reign and rule, expanding, redeeming, restoring all things as it uh steps into this broken world.
It emphasizes that the kingdom of God is actively present and expanding within this world, advocating for the transformative power of Jesus in all areas of life. This engages believers to view their actions as a means of presencing God's justice and mercy and truth into every aspect of society and culture and politics. Um, some of the common phrases that would be involved here would be something like we're called to be agents of change in this world or faith should inform every aspect of our lives. including our politics or the church should be a catalyst for justice and renewal in society.
Uh I did that social media poll with a few of my friends and said how do you engage and
43% which was the largest number they clicked on this one this option which is I can shape the world for the good
through my vote.
Wow. Yeah. So this is a hopeful view. It you know Jesus taught us to pray your kingdom come your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And this approach sees civic engagement as a way to help presence God's kingdom here on earth. Like that's what this view is suggesting. I love that.
Yeah.
So what thinkers have embodied or spoken to this approach in Christian history?
So this would be u more tied with uh the reformed view. So if you have Luther was the two kingdoms view.
Uh the Anabaptists would have been the separatist view, separation view. This would be the more reformed view which is like Calvin and some of these other thinkers.
One of the main thinkers in this space was a guy named Abraham
Kyper.
He talked about this thing called you ready for it?
Sphere sovereignty.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You ready for that? So impress your friends. Sphere sovereignty
is basically the idea that God is sovereign over all of the world. His his uh famous quote is there's not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ who sovereign over all does not cry mine. Wow. Isn't that so good?
Yeah.
So Jesus sovereign over all says it's all mine and I'm
ruler over all of it. And so sphere sovereignty would basically say
God has way of leadership over
yes politics but also the family and education and society and culture and the church that God has a a plan and a way of bringing his reign and rule over all of those spheres. Mhm.
The earth is the Lord's and all that is in it.
Yeah. It is his foottool. Right. So like this is the the point that this view says no, he's over he's over all. Um another thinker in this space, a personal hero of mine.
DJ Bonhoffer who was a he was actually a Lutheran pastor during the rise of the Nazis. And um now he had a little bit of the separatist thing. He started an underground seminary called Finenvald. Um but again that was because
they were being persecuted and
persecution drives into separation.
Yeah. Um
but he uh he viewed that his part to play was not to just separate um not to just go well there's you know Hitler and the political sphere and then I'm over here doing the church stuff. Again Luther would be more the two kingdoms view but uh he began with that view. Okay I'm in the church the states going to do their thing. One of the challenges is that um as the government was doing its thing, it was like, "Hey, we're going to now try to take over all of Europe,
right?
And as long as the church just stays out of our way, you keep doing your nice little godly things of like, you know, caring for people's souls and all that stuff and you stay out of our way and we'll stay out of yours."
And Bonhaofer was like, "Yeah, that that ain't going to work for me."
Yeah.
And so he was a part of uh what was called the confessing church. Uh uh eventually was assassinated by direct order of Henrik Himmler for an assassination attempt on Hitler. So this is not somebody who thinks well I got my political world over here and I got my you know Christian world over here. The they were so closely intertwined. Here's a quote that he said.
He said the ultimate question for a responsible man and woman he didn't say that is not how can I extricate myself. heroically from the affair but instead he says how is the coming generation to live.
So he wrote that in his book called ethics and his heart there was what should drive our thinking as faithful Christians is to say what type of world will the next generation live in.
As Christians we are responsible for what that world ends up looking like.
Um another famous thinker in this space would be William
Wilburforce
who ended the slave trade in England,
right?
Um spent his life spent his life fighting the slave trade. Um he said, "You may choose to look the other way, but you can never again say that you did not know."
Yeah. Well, I mean, he's he is echoing the idea that knowledge brings responsibility.
Yep.
And if you know the good, you ought to do and do it not. You know, so he's saying, hey, if you know, you can't just turn your face and say, I'm not going to pay attention to that. It's
again, if Wilbur Force would have been two kingdoms, he would have been like, abolition, that's just that's not something for us to figure out. That's something for the church to say, let's care for the people who are enslaved right now. We as Christians personally have our beliefs. We should take care of slaves,
right?
And be kinder to them than the rest of the world would. But the world has its systems and its values, and that's all an economy there, and that's just how it works. Uh if he's a separatist, he would have just been like, "I'm I'm not playing this game at all. You guys are so corrupt. Look at how you're right using slaves. We're never going to do that. Not in my community.
Not in my backyard."
Well, but Wilberforce, part of this transformationalist view, said, "No, what we actually need to do is see the world transformed in the light of Jesus's radical love."
And so, we need to actually institute laws that are going to end slavery.
Wow. Okay. So what does scripture have to say to us about this view?
Yes. So starting out Genesis 1:28, um somebody in this view would lean into um
what we originally called to do. Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it,
have dominion over all these things. And so
it starts with this idea that as um people made in the image of God,
we are responsible to reign and rule to take care of this world. And so they would say actually being faithful Jesus follower uh being faithful to the image of God on me means feeling some responsibility for all the ways that this world is going. So going back to Matthew 28 all authority is given so we can do what? Go make disciples. Go the actual Greek in this is go disciple all nations.
Yeah.
So the idea is like how do we shape all nations into the likeness of Jesus? And I want to clarify here. This view can um I almost added a fourth view of like a a thing to for sure not do
because this view can become a bit of what was historically christendom again where the political powers and the religious powers are intertwined.
Um some would say that that's kind of a little bit like Christian nationalism today of like
the nation and the the the religion are perfectly intertwined,
right?
Um but that's not necessarily what a Kyperian transform transformative view would be.
Okay.
Um but we are meant to disciple these nations into the likeness of Jesus, teaching them, not forcing them, but teaching them to obey everything
that he has commanded us.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come. The old is gone. The new is here.
All this is from God, who listen to this, has reconciled us to himself through Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation
that God was reconciling not just individuals but the world to himself in Christ not counting people's sins against them
and he's committed to us the message of reconciliation we are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us we implore you on Christ's behalf be reconciled to God you know the picture here again uh at the end of of the whole story in Revelation 21 1-5 says there's a new heaven and a new earth and they are joined together in this really beautiful way that at some point
when Jesus returns all things will be made right and
the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of this earth will be unified
and they'll kind of overlap in a really cool way.
Yeah.
Um the way it was in the Eden in Eden,
right?
So this view says
we get to take part in that work. Now we're not going to be the ones who do that,
right?
Who pull heaven down. here
but it is saying your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. This view says that is the heart of God and when we pray those things we aren't only asking God to do that apart from us
right
we are actually in many ways committing ourselves to that work
well and just because I happen to be in the gospel of Matthew right now for another project that I'm working on you know it just reminded me of the kingdom parables in Matthew 13
and specifically the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed which a man took and planted in his field though it's the smallest of all the seeds yet when it grows it's the largest of the garden plants becomes a tree so the birds come and perch in its branches that sounds very much like a beach head
that is planted
and that begins to grow and as it grows more and more of what's happening around it is impacted by it.
Yeah.
And so this idea that I mean if you think about I mean there's several places where Jesus compares the kingdom to seeds and planting. But if you think of believers as planted in various spaces and the kingdom of God coming in those spaces, it's going to begin to grow and it's going to begin to expand into the space that is available to it.
Yes.
And so I don't know. I just as you were talking I'm like wait I was just in like Matthew 13 last week. I know about this.
That's exactly right. And uh this viewpoint would be yeah that you have Christians all over and as we practice faithfulness to Jesus in the entertainment space and in our families and in the public sphere and or I should say in the political sphere and the education sphere and as we are faithful Christians we see his kingdom come more and more in those spaces. Now that doesn't mean that uh we are making every a kid read the Ten Commandments at school.
That doesn't mean we're forcing Christian beliefs on people,
right?
Abraham Kyper was actually a prime minister for the Netherlands. And his view was like, "Yeah, we got a lot of spaces for a lot of different religions to be going on here, but what we want to do is I'm shaped by Jesus and his uh values and virtues,
and so I'm going to seek to in the political space
shape this uh shape the policies of our nation to reflect the character, the values, the virtues of Jesus.
Okay. So, with all of these biblical passages in mind, what kind of thinking does this lead to?
Well, think of Ben about that passage Matthew 22 around give to Caesar what is Caesars and God what is God's.
This view would say uh when Jesus says that what he's saying is uh when he looks at the coin says whose image is on this coin and they say teasers the implied point there is and the image of God is on you right
so you are god's and everything that you are is god's
yeah
so he gets the say over all aspects not ca
so the philosophical theological positions here um this emphasizes a holistic engagement with culture believing that all aspects of life should reflect the values of the kingdom of god
um it advocates for the integration of faith into social, political, and cultural spheres, transforming society rather than either retreating from it or kind of understanding it as two distinct pieces.
Yeah.
Um, theologically, it's really driven by uh what's called inaugurated esquetology where uh the kingdom, God's kingdom is already but not yet. That when Jesus came, he began his kingdom work in this world and it's not at fulfillment yet. Someday Jesus will come. make it all right.
But it has started because he said the kingdom of God is here. It is among you. Like it is happening right now and of course there will be yet a future fulfillment. But it wasn't
it wasn't like hey I'm introducing something that you'll see later. It's like it's here now.
Yeah. And you know different political or I should say different theological positions would say
actually the kingdom doesn't doesn't actually come until much much later. He was just talking about it. Um but this view would definitely be rooted in an inaugurated esquetology view. Um,
uh, look that up. It's fun. It'll be a nice little rabbit hole for you. Um, this views the church actually as a vital player in cultural renewal,
shaping ethical standards and influencing so societal norms. So the role of the church is then not just in the spiritual space, but it's like, hey, we're really integrated beings. And
um, going to some of the scriptural support again is that when Jesus talks about his mission, It wasn't simply to save the spiritual souls of people, but also to give sight to the blind and to set free the captives, right? And um
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.
Yeah. And most of the times, I mean, if you watch his ministry, it was conducted inside of culture. Do you know what I mean? Sure. He was in town with people dealing with them where they were with what they were dealing with, not like, "Okay, well, if you come to my secret sacred place, then you can talk to me.
He was right there in the middle of it all the time.
Yeah. So, this this viewpoint um ongoing in life and during the election season, um this would be somebody who's like, "Hey, when I think about a candidate, it's not the lesser of two evils." Um I have to really just be thoughtful about how the candidates and policies align with how I understand God's kingdom values.
Um it again calls Christians to actively engage in political processes.
Um, it focus is that it uses somebody uses your voice to speak
and to speak for the things that God cares about, you know, for justice and mercy and care for the marginalized and addressing places where there is injustice and uh promoting a vision of a society that reflects God's heart for a society.
So, what does this look like um as we approach an election season? How does this view influence those who hold it.
So I think somebody uh that is in this view would definitely be involved in politics. In fact would be the most likely to be in advocacy groups and really pushing for what they see what policy or uh candidate can better reflect kingdom values um in their thinking. So that may be everything from uh certain environmental uh values to protecting the unborn to um
you know systems of justice or mercy or justice and mercy and uh all of that would impact this person who's like man this politics is a way
to see his kingdom come and so I want to be more involved in those places. Um this person isn't going to be thinking about themselves. In fact, All three views, let me just clarify. All three views are not saying, "Well, let me just vote for what makes things easier on myself. I want a tax break for me, and I don't care what it will do for the rest of society."
Um, a separation view says, "I'll take whatever
brutality empire will give, but we're going to live faithfully for the sake of Jesus."
The separation or sorry, the uh two kingdoms view says, "I'm going to make decisions that will build the best and most healthy government for all people."
Yep. And this view would say, you know, when I think about uh the economy, for example, I'm not just going to again think about tax cuts for me personally. I'm going to think, well, how do gas prices impact the cost of a gallon of gas for that uh person who's ma marginalized? What is it that God would want for a life of somebody who maybe has just immigrated here and is figuring out how to live as an American? um what type of economy and culture would help them thrive.
Yeah,
this person would be thinking in those ways. Um
and in that way, it's addressing systematic injustice. It's promoting a vision of society that reflects Christ's teachings. And you know, to be fair, emotionally, this can result in some level of burnout.
Yeah.
Um this feeling of like Oh man, it's all on my shoulders. Um I feel like these are the people every election season that feel so heartbroken
when something doesn't go their way.
Um at the same time, there's hope. There's um excitement. There's not a jadedness about the ways of this world
that can result in,
I think, a passion emotionally
that maybe fires up the rest of us that we're like, "Yeah, I'm so proud of you that you're like engaging in this way. Ongoing life, you know, this person would view like this is about the public sphere in general would view their work not just as a like that's fine. I'm keeping the systems of things rolling and that's part of what God would want.
This view would be like my calling,
right,
is tied to my job.
Um is tied to my involvement in the local PTA.
Um I'm commissioning my kids to be to view themselves as missionaries and light as they go to their schools and their communities.
Everything has a missional component to it just about
absolutely. Yeah. Your kingdom come in all aspects. So go be a light in the community. Get out there.
Yeah. It's a little bit more assertive. You know what I mean? Where king where sacred secular said, "Okay, my faith is over here and I will allow it to influence, but I am not going to actively infuse it." Here they're saying, "I'm going to bring my faith to bear on everything. They're one and the same. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yep.
Got it.
So what are the strengths of this societal transformation view?
I think there are a lot of strengths here. I think it again encourages Christians to really wrestle with what are the values of Jesus.
Um and again I think this goes terribly wrong. I think u we pushing this view way extreme to then say well we then want laws that's going to force everyone to act like they are Christians. Yeah.
I don't think that's what this is saying.
Nope.
But it does force people to say what what is it that Jesus cares about? M
and then how do I vote accordingly?
Yeah,
I want to care about the things that Jesus cares about and I want to vote the way Jesus would vote.
Right? So that's the question um that's driving I think that's a very positive thing even if it's hard work to really wrestle with those questions.
It fosters a sense of mission and purpose and even at church you're like oh man what are we doing for the good? Are we loving local? Are we seeking the good right
of our community if we leave But our neighborhood even notice,
right? That as a church, you can feel like, oh man, we get to be a part of of setting some wrongs right for the sake um of God and his kingdom work in the world. I think it gives a really robust theological foundation for addressing social issues
and it helps Christians connect their faith with real world challenges. Um in a place where I remember those those percentages that you shared earlier uh where people say I don't even care about politics. This viewpoint would say you better care about politics cuz politics impacts the lives of your neighbors,
the people Jesus cares about.
Yes. And so for goodness sakes, if you want to be faithful to Jesus, you better be involved in this process.
Fascinating.
Um just a few more strengths because I think there are some great strengths here. Um It does really seek to answer the question of how do I integrate Jesus's influence into all spheres of my life.
It really does start with that question.
Yeah.
The the verse that says the gates of hell will not prevail against uh against it against the move of the kingdom of God and and the church. What I love about that is that the the gates of hell gates are defensive structures.
So it's not like these gates are trying to expand that hell is just like expanding. No. What this is saying is that the work of the church, the work of the called out ones, the people of God doing what they're meant to do, it is active and it moves beyond the walls of the church. And it's saying we are out there in the world seeing his kingdom come in amazing ways.
Yeah.
And so, dude, the the gates of hell, they're not going to stand up against the power we are walking with.
Yes.
And that's awesome. Uh and then the final one is a quote from Okay, Martin Luther King uh has a challenge to the two kingdoms view that would say you can't legislate morality that would say like well you can make laws but that's not going to change the heart.
Yeah.
Here's what he says uh in his address at Western Michigan University in uh December of 1963. He says, "Now the other myth that gets around is the idea that legislation cannot really solve the problem and that it has no great role to play. in this period of social change because you've got to change the heart and you can't change the heart through legislation. Well, you can't legislate morals. The job must be done through education and religion. Well, there's halftruth involved here. Certainly, if the problem is to be solved, then in the final sense, hearts must be changed. Religion and education must play a great role in changing the heart. But we must go on to say that while it may be true that morality cannot be legislated. Behavior can be regulated.
It may be true that the law cannot change the heart, but it can restrain the heartless. And then listen to this. It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me. And I think that's pretty important. Um, he said, "So there is a need for executive orders. There is a need for judicial decrees. There is a need for civil rights legislation on the local scale within states and on the national scale from the federal government. So what MLK is saying here he would be a picture of this that's saying I want to see the work of the kingdom of God a place where there's no Jew nor Gentile slave nor free
I want that to be reflected in our society
yeah
and his work to do so was a transformationalist view it is a your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.
And people could say, well, don't force those Christian values on me.
Um, but I think he's a picture of this isn't forcing Christian values. This is this is calling uh human thriving.
Yeah.
And serving actually all people
when we care about the things that our creator God cares about,
right?
Um for all people.
Wow. Lot of strengths with that one, Brandon. So, but no view is perfect. So, what are the weaknesses or blind spots?
Yeah. So, I think first off, there's the challenge of overreach.
I think there is a risk of conflating cultural engagement with political power potentially leading to compromise of the gospel message for the sake of influence.
And this is where we can fall into the temptation to prioritize. So, social reform over spiritual transformation resulting in a gospel that may neglect the importance of salvation.
Right. You Yeah. You end up It's like salvation will come through social policy and that's not
right.
That's not accurate.
Exactly. And um you know this is where the two kingdoms view may say like hey you're going to get so focused on trying to reform society that you stop doing the thing that only the church can do.
Right. Um, and this view would speak back and say, well, the good news of God's kingdom
is yes, for souls
to be saved, but also for the redemption of all things. And those things go hand in hand. The way that Jesus when he brought healing
and forgiveness of sin together or when in Luke 4, he says, "The spirit of the Lord's on me, for he's anoint me to proclaim good news to the poor." What is that good news? the blind will see.
Yeah.
The uh imprisoned will be set free.
Um
and the year of the Lord's favor has come that will be proclaimed. And so for Jesus, those things are intertwined. And I'd urge you to read through the Gospels, uh Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and tell me that those things aren't.
Um but but this is where the overreach can easily happen.
I think there also is a weakness where this can be driven with a lot of uh naive.
So this view can often be viewed as the naive view. I could see how a two kingdoms person is like, "Yeah, I tried that."
Yeah.
And then I had to realize that the government's going to be the government,
right?
And the church can be the church. And I think there's truths to that. Sure.
Um this
it's hard to hang in this view for a very long time and live in our very broken world.
Yeah. It it that's what I was just thinking about as you were talking It's just the tension of living in a space where I believe that it is actually my calling to be engaged and to try to do what I can with the influence and and ability that I have to help advance the kingdom of God and yet at the same time recognize the world that I'm operating in is broken.
It is not actually my power or my influence. I'm going to steward what I've been given, but it's going to be God that's going to bring the increase. So, if my efforts are not not successful and the government does not align the way I'm hoping that it will, that I'm not devastated and that I think I've failed, but I know that I've stewarded it well and God is still sovereign and if things don't go the way that I hope that they will, I'm not, you know, it doesn't throw me off and I'm devastated because it's like, oh, I tried and it's terrible and now I'm so discouraged. It's like, I will continue to live for God. I will continue to live on mission in every aspect and area where I can. And at the the same time knowing that he is sovereignly, you know, working all things for our good and his glory. And it may not happen on my timetable. It may not happen the way I think that it will. It may come in a way that I never saw coming. So, we have to hold those both.
Yeah. And I I think that absolutely summarizes um you know, a lot of our language we often use is, oh, we're going to build the kingdom.
Um which is just not in scripture. Um that's not how it's talked about of our involvement for the sake of the kingdom. of God. Uh we don't build a kingdom. God does.
Right?
And where this can get really unhealthy is it can put more and more of that influence and power in our hands
where what we're thinking is I'm building the kingdom,
right?
And uh at that point, man, now we're starting to use our faith. We're starting to use Jesus
as a means to go and grab more power, almost as an excuse.
Yeah. grab more power. Um,
and I think, you know, there are other passages that would be uh helpful. You know, in John 18:36, my kingdom is not of this world.
And so, it's easy for this to become so focused again on uh social good that we miss out on the integrated parts of uh of what that means, of what it means to carry the gospel message. We forget about forgiveness of sins. repentance,
eternal salvation.
Um, you know, Hebrews 13:14 says, "For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." And this again, the point that we were talking about is if I feel like my faithfulness to Jesus is about getting this or that article or amendment or whatever passed, that proposition passed,
or if I can just have this thing happen in my workplace, or whatever it it falls into that temptation that Pastor Andy you talked about of we Christians can end up knowing a whole bunch of stuff about a lot of stuff we don't have control over.
Yeah.
And then we can actually
not know about the stuff that we do have control over.
This view can put too many eggs in the basket of political change and advocacy and societal um justice
that we forget about like Oh no, we actually have a lot of other places we want to see his kingdom come. Like in my own actual life.
Yeah.
Have I surrendered all these aspects of my own thinking, my own identity, my own practices and rhythms?
How about me as a parent or as a spouse or as a child? How about me in my neighborhood? Um where I'm not thinking about the HOA policies, but I'm actually just thinking about my neighbors.
Yeah.
Um so this view can fall into a hyper politicalism
that again can perpetuate our um our partisan ideologies.
Sure.
And now conflate that so clearly with our faithfulness to Jesus. And this is where
of any view this is the one that pushed too far leads into Christendom. And uh that's something to be really really careful of.
Oh absolutely. So what does it look like to live faithfully as a follower of Jesus who embraces societal transformation as their approach to civic engagement.
I think to be faithful in this view um it is leaning continually into that letting Jesus be Lord overall.
Mhm.
Um it starts by saying Jesus is Lord
and it says my citizenship is first and foremost in the kingdom of God. But then it also what's beautiful about that is you do get to hold the dual citizenship idea.
Mhm.
But it's almost like you're a subversive character within it, like the French resistance or something, right? Like you are
seeking to restore and redeem the world around you in all aspects.
And um
and so I think there's something something really beautiful in that and that's how we can live faithfully in this space. I think just some some challenges if you're in this space. Are we truly relying on the power of the of the spirit, the work of God
uh in us and through us or are we just holding on to the virtues and values of Jesus apart from him as an actual person?
And just trying to enforce those things, you know, like when you know about somebody versus actually knowing them.
Yep. Yep.
We can end up doing so much work for God that we're not working with God.
Um and I think sometimes I've met friends, family members who uh just so desire to see his will done in this world that it starts to eat them up inside because it's almost like this is how I'm supposed to be faithful
yeah
to Jesus and all the while I wonder if Jesus is saying wait what did I say about a light burden that you get to walk with me
yeah
learn my unforced rhythms of grace we don't need to be faithful to Jesus and the kingdom does not grow just through through grinded teeth and clenched hands.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, um the fruit of the spirit does not um emerge from a branch that is groaning because it's trying to push out this fruit. Um and I think this viewpoint can sometimes fall into that um that view.
Yeah. I feel like also sometimes in our in our um enthusiasm to get to spread the kingdom, we begin to act in ways that don't reflect kingdom.
Yeah.
And I think that that's where we get the reputation that oh, you know, Christians are just known for what they're against.
Yeah.
You know, and I think that as we one of the risks of this is to to keep in mind it is God's power, not our force. Yeah.
And so that we want to always have our character still align like we want it to look like Jesus.
Even as we seek the good of, you know, through our political engagement, we still want to act like followers. Jesus.
Yep. And like we we were looking at this study before this episode where um it was I think out of uncchristian or good faith with uh Gabe Lions and David Kdaman and they talked about how 75% of non-Christians
thought that Christians are far too political.
Um sometimes out of this view, out of a desire to um see his kingdom come even in our politics.
Yeah.
We become more known for what we're against than what we're for. And we're so advocating for this or that policy
that uh we're actually hurting Christian witness.
Yeah.
And on that side, that's some of the direction of why I think the evangelical church for the last 40 years has kind of been like we just don't want to talk about politics.
Um but again, the great challenge in that is that we are making Jesus then Lord of less. because we are not um we are not modeling and clarifying how Jesus should influence how we should be more discipled by Jesus than our political parties.
Yeah.
Wow.
So, just two questions before we go lightning round. Two questions for you to reflect on um in this view. So, first off, if you aren't part of this view and you're looking in and being like, "Yeah, that's the mess. I'm glad I've got my view because that one is so messy. I would urge you as you listen to this, maybe something you can learn from this view uh is by asking yourself what would it look like if you saw God as about yes saving souls, but also that God is at work redeeming and restoring the whole world. For God so loved the world that he sent his son for for he did not send his son to condemn the world but to save the world. through him.
John's really driving at that word world to say
all aspects of God's creation.
And so what if you saw God's work as not just spiritual but involving all of these other aspects?
How would that impact you? And this view can challenge you that way.
I think it can say what if your whole life was tied up in God's grand mission for the world.
This isn't just a hey said this prayer and now I'm waiting around till I'm dead,
right?
Uh so I can go to heaven. This is like I'm a part of God's grand work in this world and all aspects of my life are wrapped up in that.
I think that could be a really helpful
um and encouraging and challenging question that this viewpoint can offer you.
On the contrary, if you are in this view and you're like, "Yes, finally we got to something that I like." I would challenge you Whose kingdom are you really fighting for?
Is it truly the kingdom of Jesus or is it kind of using our faith in Jesus as uh as an excuse to fight for the kingdom of ourselves? Um I think it's easy in this space to walk into all aspects of the public sphere, whether it's just um conversations with others or advocacy or your workplace or volunteering or any of these places with this desire of like I'm going to see God's reign come and then you go well okay I can concede on this point and okay I can to get a little bit more power I just need to cool I'll be cool on this one and I'll agree with them on this one and before you know it
it's maybe just power we're seeking
um so what would it look like if we weren't fighting for our kingdoms
that Jesus is. And one more challenge. If we really want to see his kingdom come, we must reflect both his means and his ends.
There it is.
So, what if we're not just trying to hit his um you know, his achievement targets of okay, God wants a world that's like this, this, and this, and this, but he also wants us to be a people of humility, of love, of patience, of civility, of
uh kindness, of peace.
And so, how do we chase after Jesus, seek after his kingdom in both means and ends of our work.
Awesome. So, with that, as we wrap this up, um you have been excited about the lightning round and I think
have it's more fear and trembling actually.
Yeah. You know, so we're just going to you've mentioned a couple of issues that we're going to hit on and what we'll do is we'll look at an issue and then how each view sort of approach that issue in this upcoming election. So, let's just jump in.
Yeah. Let's just give some examples. Uh let's do a lightning round on really hot topics on how these views engage so that when you're talking to your friends or family and any of these topics come up, you can at least discern which camp are they in.
Um or you can share a point of view to a neighbor who doesn't follow Jesus and share a view that you that they will be like, "Wow, that That's different than just the political rhetoric. Let's bring it really down
to ground level and say, "How does this play out?"
Mhm. Okay. All right.
All right. Hit me with it, Linda.
All right. So, let's just start at the very beginning. Let's talk about abortion.
All right. Lightning round. Here we go.
Here we go.
Let's start with what I would say would be the Christian value beneath this topic. So, the Christian value beneath this topic in my mind is that God values all hum including the unborn
who are biblically humans.
So let's just start there. So if the Christian value is that God values all humans, here are the ways these different uh camps would play out on that.
Okay, let's go.
Separation person would say, look, any vote for any governmental leader for the last few decades, their job was to uphold the law of the land, which included supporting
the the uh the killing
Mhm.
of the unborn. And so uh there has been uh perpetuating of violence against innocent life. So I've not taken part in voting for any of these people. And if you have, you're part of that corrupt society.
And so I'm not implicated in that evil work. I've been faithful as a Christian father. I've cared for those who maybe had an unwanted pregnancy. I've cared for those mothers.
I've done that work myself. I live in a community of support and accountability where the value of life is upheld. I'm not going to vote on this topic.
Wow.
So, what if you hold the sacred secular view?
So, this viewpoint would say, look, I've personally got my values um as a as a Christian. So, I would not support having an abortion for for me, for my own life,
but government has its own systems and values.
So, as a citizen, uh and this is where there could be different views. citizen, I can't change hearts by making it illegal. So, I'm okay voting for those who would allow for abortion. And then let's hope that the church can change the hearts and the minds of people.
Or maybe it's like, you know, I think a government should give freedom to the states. That's my own like understanding of how governments work best. So, I'm going to vote according to that because I think states should have their right and whatever they choose, okay, that's their choice.
But you see, there's a separation there. Me personally, I have these values.
Yep.
And And then over here I'm thinking government structures.
Sure. Sure.
How about the transformative view?
Yeah. So the transformative view would say God's will is that every life should be valued. So I'm going to vote for a candidate and down ballot candidates and measures that will protect innocent human life wherever I can. Uh I will also advocate for political protections for mothers that want to adopt and policies that support financial support to ling families and nonprofits that are doing this restorative work. So you can see there there's kind of this like multiaceted hey not just the topic but all the societal things that would
impact a mother with this decision.
Got it. So your vote will actually help bring about
this value set.
This value set.
Yep.
Okay. Next one. Immigration.
Oh great.
Yeah.
Yes. So the three views uh let's start with the Christian value. The Christian value and again disagree with me if you will but I got a lot of scripture to back this up. The Christian value is that God values all humans and Jesus has called for us to care for the immigrant, the outsider, the marginalized.
Okay.
So scripture I think is very very clear about that. Now how it shows up in voting.
Yeah,
let's talk about it. The separation person would say Jesus's way is not of borders and states. Uh I serve a different king and different. My citizenship is in a different kingdom. So, I'm not going to vote to uphold citizenship rights for anything.
My job as a Christian is to love and welcome the Christian immigrant and the outsider into my community and to care for those who are non-Christian. We should care for them too.
Absolutely.
As a community.
Okay. What about those who hold sacred secular?
Okay. This view would say a nation is divi is defined by its borders. That's the only way taxation and government support for citizens, etc. That's the only way that that even works.
Yeah.
So, let's be real about that. This is how systems of governments function. So, I will vote for or against our current immigration policies that align with my understanding of government structures. My own personal beliefs as a Christian is that I'm supposed to love the outsider and the immigrant. So, I'll do that personally as I meet people
and maybe my my church will have uh some opportunities to help serve people that are coming in from any different country, whatever.
You'll be loved. Um, and I'm glad my church offers that, but when I vote, that's what I'm going to vote for.
Yep. And the transformative view.
So, this view would say would ask the question, is the reign and way of Jesus influencing how we develop policy around immigration?
So, this person would say, I will vote so that God's justice and mercy will be reflected within government policy. So, I'll advocate for policies that protect the dignity and rights of immigrants and uphold systems of justice that will reflect the order and structure since God is a God of order. So, you could hear kind of right and left in there.
But my heart is this in this is to say,
what if we put on a different grid as well?
So, we're not just thinking right, left,
but you can hear how a Christian wrestling with these things uh would engage in these topics.
Got it. All right, last one. Presidential ballot. Especially since, as we saw earlier, 50% of Christians say that neither right now looks appealing to them. So, how would we do this?
Yeah. So, the Christian value here is that God has high standards for leadership.
And he has showed that throughout scripture, no leader besides Jesus is perfect,
right?
Jesus is not on the ballot. All have major flaws,
but that God has ordained leaders to lead.
Yeah.
So if that's the Christian value
Mhm.
how to play out here's separation. Separation would say, you can probably guess both parties, both leaders, our entire political system is part of empire, worldly power carrying its evil work out on the world. Um, in a in a less extreme version, it's just like that's a mess. I don't want to be involved in it at all.
And so I'm just staying out of all of it. Jesus is not on the ballot, so I'm not going to vote for anybody.
Got it.
The sacred secular distinction
Mhm.
would say again, I've got my own personal Christian values and you know what, they may not come in line with my candidate.
Um there it doesn't align with their character or their positions or their decisions. But as a citizen of this country, I'm choosing the lesser of two evils. I think this or that candidate will will uphold the governmental systems, bring greater sense of justice and peace according to my definition of these words.
Yeah.
So, um what's the best decision based on my understanding of how government should work?
Got it. Got it. And the final view, the transformative, how would they make this decision?
So, this view I think would say something like this or that candidate will influence our country with the will of God and the ethic of Jesus, even if it means I'm writing in a candidate. So, it's for somebody looking for a candidate that's like,
I'm not going to I'm going to do my best to not vote the lesser of two evils because what I'm doing there is I'm actually hindering
the kingdom of God
in my vote. And so, what I want to do is I want to vote my conscience.
Um, and I want to see the kingdom of God come in my vote. So, I'm going to vote for a candidate, but then this person usually cares a bit more around down ballot issues and measures and,
you know, local governance and all that stuff that will best reflects the ethics of Jesus for a pluralistic world.
Wow. Just even as we were talking about the issues that we did talk about here, the prayer and discernment that goes into what issue are you going to let lead you,
do you know what I mean?
Yeah. Hope What will happen is that you're thinking differently now about okay how now do I engage Jesus in this entire process and the great thing is living in the public sphere as a Christian is far more than just at the ballot box
right
that we are confronted with a very clear set of decisions but what we're advocating for the work we're seeking to do the um the organizations we're involved in and give to the um the nonprofits that we want to be a part of like all of those things are influenced by um by our views on these things.
And I think at the core as we close up that's the heart of this. This is really a call to faithfulness.
Yeah. We started this whole series by talking about the fact that what we wanted to do is help people think biblically.
We didn't want their engagement to just be a reaction or this is too much to think about, I don't want to deal with it.
Yep. Or man, I've just been so influenced by the world that I'm not letting Jesus have the loudest voice at the table.
Right. Right. So, the goal in all of this was just to walk into this process with a biblical worldview, with an understanding of of what the Bible says and and to do that in a way that honors him no matter which view you choose.
Yeah. And I hope whatever world you land in, um, as I was reading out that that part of the lightning round, there are definitely some parts I'm like, please don't do it this way.
You know,
um I hope you heard some encouragements. I hope you heard some challenges that if you are firmly rooted in one of these camps, I hope you'll learn from another one.
Um uh there's this phrase we've been using a lot here. Uh I think it's a great phrase that the clock determines the play.
Yeah.
Um and so when you think about, you know, sports like the clock determines the play. When we think about these different views and you're wondering which one do I want to enter into.
Um I think our time in history will determine uh maybe what camp we want to be in. And this is why I think all of them carry some levels of faithfulness to them.
Um but right now what does the world need of Christians?
What does the world need of you?
Um you know maybe you're in this transformationalist camp and you realize man I've become so shaped by the political rhetoric of this world. I need to go hang out with some separation people for a little bit and recognize that all solutions are not found in politics. That there's a lot more to faithfulness than that.
Or, you know, maybe you are in a separation world and you need to recognize maybe there is a part to play and I need to hang out with the two kingdoms person a little bit and dig into that viewpoint
because maybe there is a way I can be faithful to Jesus while also understanding that there's a whole different system of government that I can
uh be a part of and speak into u while being faithful to Jesus. So I would urge you don't throw away this opportunity uh to vote. Don't throw away this opportunity to be involved in in um a world that really needs us to be the salt and the light.
And again, if your view is, well, I'm going to do that best by being holy and faithful to who it is God's calling me to be, okay. Um but man, Let's really wrestle with let's not let this time go by and say, "Well, I've just not thought about it."
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, that's good. Why don't you Why don't you close us up with a thought, Linda?
H I would just encourage people. There is another Christian value that I think we can all get behind, and that is that we are called to pray for the leaders that are in authority over us.
Yes.
Whether we like them or not, whether we agree with them or not, We are actually to pray for them. 1 Timothy 2:2, pray for kings and all those are who are in high positions that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. So no matter what happens, let us pray for those in authority over us. Amen. Well, thank you again so much for joining us for this uh this new series of found as we dig into how to navigate life in the political sphere. Um We hope that you uh have a billion questions and a lot of thoughts to have uh to talk through with others. We hope that this gives you a way forward to have those conversations. Um as usual, feel free to reach out. We would love to uh you know chat with you on the weekend uh over at the hub or over a cup of coffee
and dig into any of these topics. Shoot us an email at maturity@saddleback.com. Uh we love You go be faithful to Jesus so that he may be Lord of all. This is a Saddleach Church podcast.