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Welcome to Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s podcast series that explores the freshest ideas in agriculture and food. Each episode explores a single topic in depth—digging deep into new practices, innovative ideas, and their impacts on the industry. Learn about Canada’s agricultural sector from the people making the breakthroughs and knocking down the barriers! Farmers and foodies, scientists and leaders, and anyone with an eye on the future of the sector—this podcast is for you!
Lori Robinson: I don't always like being first out of the gate. I'll take a few risks on, not giant leaps, but small steps. It’s exciting to try new things, not all of them work but some of them have taken off and you know you can be pretty proud of the things that you start.
Kirk: That was Lori Robinson, 6th generation farmer on PEI. She’s a self described data hound. She’s an elite curling coach. And while she doesn’t always like being first out of the gate, as a result of her 50+ years of her and her family taking detailed notes and 20 + years of doing a four-year crop rotation system, guess what? She WAS first out of the gate. She is an innovator. And she laid the groundwork for the innovation we are talking about today, which was part of Living Lab – Atlantic, a project that was funded by Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.
Marie-France: This episode is about the story of a user-friendly calculator for crop rotations that has both economic benefits for producers and environmental benefits.
Kirk: Developed with support from the PEI Potato Board, the calculator helps producers maximize profits while reducing their use of pesticides and improving soil health. And the story of the
Marie-France : We are starting with the scientist who came up with the idea of the calculator, Tobias Laengle, biologist with the Pest Management Centre, based in Newfoundland.
Tobias: This came up as part of the Atlantic Living Labs, which is the first Living Labs project that got started in Canada in 2019, just before the pandemic. And it was a really interesting learning experience for me as a scientist because we kind of went into the project thinking, okay, we have a plan: We're going to do these trials and encourage growers to adopt these practices using alternatives to control different pests in potatoes.
And when I got to PEI, I discovered that a lot of the growers are actually already doing the things that we wanted to encourage them to do.
Kirk: So, that’s the first twist.
Marie-France: That must have been humbling.
Kirk: Maybe humbling, but that sort of listening and consultation with growers is part of the scientific process and part of the beauty of the Living Lab model.
Tobias: And we sat in different growers offices and kitchens and stood in their garages next to their equipment, we kind of started talking about, the challenges of growing crops and pest management. And then one of the growers said, um, I'm really interested in talking about the length of the crop rotation because he had noticed that he had a yield monitor on his tractor and he was entering an area that hadn't been in potatoes for longer than the normal three year rotation. And he was just like astounded how he saw the numbers on his yield monitors shooting up to like in the range of double or at least close to that. And I thought, well that's really interesting because if we can make the economics work with a longer crop rotation where potato is by far the most input intensive crop that might achieve our goal in a way that to reduce pesticide inputs in a way that I had never thought of. And so we kept going with the conversation.
Kirk: And you remember Lori Robinson from the top of the show? This is where she got pulled into that conversation with Tobias.
Lori Robinson: Yeah. with Living Labs, I mean, they've kind of been on my radar, but I hadn't really been paying a lot of attention to some of the work that they were doing. I followed the research but hadn’t been a part of it. And I know Tobias in Newfoundland, he had asked the coordinator for doing the living labs work here on P.E.I. if there was anybody on P.E.I. with potatoes in the rotation that was doing a four year rotation because he hadn't really heard of that before. And the coordinator, somebody that I was sitting on a panel with one day and I said, oh, well, I actually do that. So I kind of got brought into the project a little bit late, but I'm also a bit of a data hound and I've got like 50 years data of like PH’s and soil tests and pesticide applications for the last 30 years and fertilizer usage.
Kirk: You heard it. 50 years of data! 30 years regarding pesticide and fertilizer use.
Marie-France: Yes and even more, Lori, had been experimenting with four-year crop rotations since 2000. And she moved all of her fields into four-year rotations in the last ten years. So, her data was significant.
Tobias: And so it was really interesting to hear kind of her perspective and she shared some data with us, fair bit of data with us on what crops she's grown and so all of this together, led to the idea of let's develop an economic calculator to actually properly assess, how the economics of a longer crop rotation can work.
Kirk: And so the idea of developing this tool was born.
Lori Robinson: And you know, I've got records here, there and everywhere which all of a sudden everybody wanted to know, like how I could quickly put all those, put all those records into one file and send it off to them so they could use it in their research. So I kinda came a little bit late to the project, but all of a sudden was up to my eyeballs in data and trying to compare three year and four years. So when the idea of the crop calculator came out, I had really done my own sort of cost benefit analysis of a number of like the crops that we grow and I track that year over year. So, it was a good fit for me to sit in on the discussions about the crop calculator and be able to add my input into what I think true cost of production are and true values of revenue streams. And so I became part of a much larger team that all had a little bit of input into the crop calculator and continue to tweak it a bit as we go.
Kirk: That’s just one of those moments of serendipity. And this is a great moment in our podcast to make a point about the value of long-term data collection. You know how the value of long-term data collection in our research centres isn’t always appreciated?
Marie-France: Yes?
Kirk: And to make those small innovations on small steps that end up making a big difference. So, if you like food, you should appreciate that those experimental farms need to continue to exist. They help the farmers manage soil for the long run.
Marie-France: Good point. But let’s get back to our story and see how that long-term data collection turned into a great calculator.
Kirk: Absolutely, ok. Because they had to look at a lot of variables and how the different crops were affecting the population of wire worms for example, it’s a major pest for and the overall soil health.
Tobias: Going back to the original idea how do the economics look when you, you know sub in other rotational crops like the typical crop rotation in, in P.E.I. and in many other places in Atlantic Canada is uh, potato followed by, uh, barley or another cereal that's under seeded with a forage like alfalfa. And so in the second year you harvest that, that barley and then the alfalfa, that has been under seeded continues to grow in the, in the, in the second year after potato and then you go into potato again and, there's a number of challenges with that the barley tends to encourage wire worms. Uh, the alfalfa is good for the soil but an extra year of alfalfa or another crop, uh, would be even better for the soil. And, and, um, because we know that, uh, 80% or so of the pesticides that are being used in, in that for, in that three year rotation, um, happened in the potato year, um, simply by stretching out the time in between potatoes on average you're using less pesticides and less inputs, um, overall And so, um, yeah, so if the economics, uh, work, we figured that is a really positive thing, um, for, for the landscape and for the environment.
Kirk: Did you have one of those Excel spreadsheet super users on your team?
Tobias: So we connected with the economics team and they had a very fantastic student. Her name is Baijal Patel and she was brilliant in Excel and she worked with us to develop this beautiful calculator that can take account of just about anything you can think of in a cropping system. There's a dashboard where you can just use dropdowns to pick your crops and it shows you right on the screen the projected earnings over a cycle or over a longer period and how your revenue is split up between your main crop, the potatoes and the barley and whatever else you might be growing.
Marie-France: So I understand that it's user friendly for people like me who are okay, but not super computer savvy.
Tobias: So the calculator is designed to work for growers with different levels of comfort with technology. If you're someone who's very deep into, you know, things like Excel and, and comfortable using that, there's multiple different tabs where a grower can edit their own numbers change things as, as they wish. But there's also a dashboard that's pretty intuitive and, and user friendly where we can just simply play with the dropdowns and just looking at it there now you can pick the sequence of crops and compare different rotations. And it tells you estimated number of pesticide applications, gives you a graph of the projected earnings over time and also how your revenue that crop rotation is diversified -- because diversification is also something that's important.
Marie-France: You mentioned the pesticide risk is a factor that is programmed into the calculator. I assume cost to yield. Are there other factors that are in there?
Tobias: The inputs into the calculator look at the cost of land, the cost of your seed, the cost of fertilizer, pesticides, fuel to use your tractors. For example, if you need to drive your tractor more often using whatever practice, then, you know, the cost of fuel. The maintenance of your tractor that factors into it. If you need to buy a new piece of equipment for a BMP, then that is factored in, taking into account amortization period for that piece of equipment, however long it's expected to last.
Marie-France: So the, the level of data in there, it's quite impressive. And, and that's why you mentioned that it can be used in other regions. So if I'm a potato producer in Saskatchewan, I just have to put my cost of land, my cost of fuel and everything, and then I will have something that will give me options for my own environment of my farm at the other end of the country.
Tobias: That's right. And so we did some research to pre-populate the calculator with the best numbers that, that we had to our disposal, and the pre-populated information is geared towards PEI. But like you said, if, if you wanted to use it in Manitoba, if you wanted to use it in Saskatchewan, if you wanted to use it on different crops, you could do that. You just would have to override the presets with your own information.
That's the nice thing that makes it flexible and applicable to other things. And, I will certainly be using it in my research with wild blueberries. We'll just replace the potatoes with blueberries and change the presets.
Marie-France: If I want to go to a 4 or 5 year crop rotation, it's an investment in time and preparation to make that shift. What would you say to a farmer who is thinking about the move to a 4 or 5 year rotation? Because there's some risk, as you mentioned, every time you change something, you risk to lose part of your income.
Tobias: Yeah, exactly. The calculator can give you more comfort in trying something new because it can project your earnings, with the knowledge that you have today, into the future. It helps a grower consider changing their practices from a three year rotation to a four year rotation. I think growers are actually, aren't given a enough credit for how much they are environmental stewards of the land. The soil is, you know, their capital, really. If they're able to keep the soil healthy for future generations, for their kids, if they go into farming or staying in the farming stays in the family. I think that's the motivation.
That came out in, in many conversations that I've had. They want to do good to the land. They know that along a rotation with like a crop like alfalfa for an extra year is better for the land. And the other thing that I've heard from some folks that I have talked to is if we can just keep that field in alfalfa for another year and, and cut it a couple of times a year, well maybe they'll too have more time to spend with the family instead.
Marie-France: Are there other ways it can be used?
Tobias: So there's two angles to how you can use a calculator; One is if I change the length of my rotation to have potatoes, or as the most input intensive crop and thereby pesticide intensive crop, to a longer period in between potatoes that has, you know, automatic environmental benefits in reducing pesticide being used in the environment. The other angle to it is if you as a grower were to come to the conclusion, you know, I don't have the land base to switch to a four-year rotation right now or not for all of my fields, I need to stick with 3 years for at least part of my land base. I need to stick with, um, with three years for at least part of my land base. Then, you know, maybe that's also an outcome that's helpful. But the calculator still allows the grower to change things up within that three-year rotation.
Wire worm is a problem in potato that has been around for a long time and has is notoriously difficult to control. But what we do know is that crops in the rotation, like buckwheat and mustard, have a positive impact in that they reduce the populations of wire worms. And so, if a grower is not able to switch to three year rotation, they can try to assess, you know, is buck wheat going to work for me as part of a rotation, it has soil health benefits. It reduces diseases and as well reduces wire worms. So that, is another way to lead to a more sustainable production system that the calculator can help with.
Marie-France: You mentioned pest control products what about weed resistance?
Tobias: For sure. Yeah. I'm not a weed specialist. But resistance with all pesticides is of concern. And, so the less, you can use the same compound repeatedly, the more you can reduce the pesticide risk. That would certainly help with resistance management as well.
Kirk: Marie-France, by all accounts this is a great new tool for potato producers in Atlantic Canada, and indeed across the country.
Marie-France: And it all started with a farmer asking a question about crop rotations and data nerd, Lori Robinson, with her 50 years of data and 20 years of experience with four-year crop rotations.
Kirk: And when we spoke with her, I was interested to hear about what she was seeing in the four-year crop rotations, prior to there being any calculator. Because she was the first one out of the gate. I wanted to know about her initial results.
Lori Robinson: Yeah. I mean, I think I was tending to look at things more kind of economically than maybe soil health wise or yield wise. I mean, yield it's a difficult thing to quantify comparing year-over-year because of the environment that we live in and yield is more of a product of how much rain we get and how much heat we get and how much sunshine it was. It was a bit difficult to compare it on a on a yield basis. But I think what we are seeing is over the years, we would see that we would have better soil health and in years where we would have drought like we would have a little bit better water holding capacity in our soils. We were seeing sort of less pest infestation, so I mean, I think it was, you know, valuable to look at things other than maybe just yield, and to mitigate some of the risks economically to grow potatoes, it's a fairly expensive crop to grow. And if you have depressed prices or depressed yields, you can lose a lot of money quick the same way as you can make a lot of money quick if you have great yields and great prices. But this way it was sort of balancing some of that financial risk as well and I think that's where I saw the biggest advantage was that we were mitigating some of the economic risk. And then, you know, eventually over time, saw some of the soil health benefits as well .
Marie-France: And that kind of mitigation of risk, combined with better soil health is the right recipe for sustainable farming. So I guess you will want to know where you can find the calculator.
Kirk: Yes, well, it is now available for free on the PEI Potato Board website in both English and French. We’ll put a link to it in our description of this episode. And I would be remiss not to mention Ryan Barrett at the PEI Potato Board and all of his help in developing this tool.
Marie-France: We also want to mention Meysoon Amin, another brilliant student has also significantly contributed to the final version. And I heard that it is also being tested in other Living Labs across the country, where they are adapting it to different crops.
Kirk: Yeah. It will be interesting to see where other producers and scientists use it.
And that brings us to the end of this episode. And leaves us with our adage, but maybe a revised adage.
Marie-France: Try something new?
Kirk: Yeah, try something new. But use a crop rotation calculator first.
Marie-France: Good advice! And don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast for the latest and greatest, the innovations and innovators in the agricultural and food sector here in Canada.