The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown

Welcome back to The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown! In this episode, Matthew and Tammy dive into listener-submitted questions covering tough topics like dealing with workplace gossip, finding compassion in divisive political issues, and how to juggle multiple important roles as a man of faith. How can you honor God while navigating difficult conversations with coworkers who avoid confrontation? Should you stay true to your beliefs when family is divided over controversial topics like immigration? And how can you balance being a godly man, father, husband, and friend without losing yourself in the process?
Tune in for insightful answers, scripture-based wisdom, and practical steps you can take to grow in your faith and relationships.
Don't forget to subscribe, leave a comment, and support the podcast by visiting sandalschurch.com/support.

Support content like this and the vision of Sandals Church at http://sandalschurch.com/support/

Join our email list for content updates: http://sandalschurch.com/subscribe

Download the Sandals Church App: http://sandalschurch.com/app/

If you have questions, need prayer or want to get connected, please email us anytime at online@sandalschurch.com!

- Other Sandals Church YouTube Channels -
Sandals Church: 
www.youtube.com/@sandalschurch
Sandalschurch.tv: 
www.youtube.com/channel/UC0BBn1VFrdLWtB-TpEM1jjw
Sandals Church Español:
www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Glhzd2qXPbiitxyiWKJgg
Sandals Church Youth: 
www.youtube.com/channel/UCnklO4l6HduzlKOh_Me8tdg

What is The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown?

The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.

Scott Schutte:

Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.

Tammy Brown:

Well, welcome back to another episode of The Debrief with Matthew Stephen Brown, our pastor, my husband, and we have such great questions today that we're gonna bypass on a little conversation fodder between the two of us Oh. And get right into them.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I was looking forward to

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

the fodder.

Tammy Brown:

No fodder today. This next question is from Annie Moss. Yes. In Manaphy, California, and it's quite a long question.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So Yes. Thank you,

Tammy Brown:

Annie. Let me read it like this. Pastor Matt, how should I navigate a work culture where people avoid direct conversations and instead air their grievances about me to specific coworkers who acts as the unofficial complaint department? Ugh. Been there, done that.

Tammy Brown:

I wanna be teachable and aware of my any blind spots, but I feel like I'm being talked about behind my back rather than given a fair chance to grow. I wanna represent Jesus well in how I handle conflict, but I'm struggling with how to balance humility, self awareness, and the need for healthy confrontation in a workplace that operates this way. How should I approach this situation in a way that honors God and builds good relationships with my coworkers?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Thank you so much

Tammy Brown:

for see how you answered

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

the comments.

Tammy Brown:

You so much

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

for this question, Annie. I mean, the hardest part of life is navigating people and relationships. And it doesn't matter if it's at work or it's at or it's family. You know, people are the problem. It just is.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I mean, we're all sinners, we're all fallen. I mean, single letter that is written in the Bible is written because groups of believers who've been saved by grace can't give grace to each other. I mean, it's just, you know, when you think about the passage, we do the Lord's Supper every single week at Sandals Church. When you think about the passage in one Corinthians chapter 11, he's saying, look, some of you fatsoes are eating, you know, buffet while there are people in the church who are starving and it's supposed to be a love feast. He's like, you're getting drunk and overeating while people are starving.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And you just have to realize, people are the problem. They're really, really hard. I was telling that pastor who started the C3 Church Anaheim, I said, remember this, God is good, people suck. And again, I love people, I love you. People are, what I mean by that is people are really, really hard.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It was people that crucified Christ. And so we have to remember that. And so I think one of the reasons we're so offended is we expect people to be better than they are. And so I think so much of our hurt in life is we expect our parents to be better than they are, we expect our spouse to be better than they expect our kids to be better than they are. We expect our friends.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

We expect our church to be better than it is. And so when people don't live up to our standard, that is false. It's not and I'm not saying you shouldn't have any standard. I'm not saying you should go to an abusive church, be in an abusive relationship, let people walk all over you. That's not what I'm saying.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

What I'm saying is we have such high expectations, we can't help but be hurt and offended. Mhmm. And so if you adopt a missional mindset, because he said he wants to represent Christ, right? So if you adopt the missional mindset and understand these people probably aren't going to church being challenged that gossip and slander is of the devil. They're probably not learning the things that you're learning.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so if you just have grace, don't look down on them, but you have grace for people who who aren't receiving the same truths that you're receiving. And we and sometimes as Christians, I I think we get aghast at the world and we're like, how could they obey or how could they behave this way? They're not in church. They're not hearing the word of God every And then you might say, well, they are in church, and they're hypocrites. Yep.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And we have those at Sandals too. Mhmm. And so you just have to have a level of grace. Here's what I would encourage him to do is, here's the great thing about working somewhere. You don't have to work there.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Like, I would quit and go somewhere else. I don't know why so many of us work jobs with people that are just so terrible and it's already hard enough to have to give up such a large portion of your life for work. Why would you then do that with people who are on top of the work being hard, make it awful? So I would just, I mean, we're not slaves. We get to put our name out there, get on LinkedIn, find another job.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You know, there's a better job with pay raise somewhere else, and then go there. And then if this happens again, what I would say is maybe you need to look at yourself. Maybe there are some things that people see about you. And here's what I would just say, very, very few people are willing to confront face to face. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I get challenged all the time. You got to talk to my husband. You got to talk to my wife. You got to talk to this person. You gotta stand up.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I mean, you'd be amazed at all the cowards who challenge me publicly on social media. I actually do confront people. And I can tell you, when I do that, people, they're gone. Like, people are so brave on a keyboard. And then when it's actually face to face and you got to look somebody in the eye and say, hey, look, I don't like this.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

People are chicken. I'm just going to tell you, they're chicken. That's why people love social media because they're so brave. So what I would say is, you just got to anticipate that most people won't tell you the truth. I think about a friend that you and I had years ago, Andrea, and we were together and she said to me, what aren't people telling me about me?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. You know who I'm talking about, Andrea? I was afraid to tell her. She was single, she didn't want to be single, she wanted to be married. She said, what do I need to know that people won't tell me?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I told her, I said, I I don't want to tell you because I'm afraid that I'll hurt your feelings and offend you and lose the relationship. And so even when people in, you know, you and I talk about this all the time, even when people invite me to be real Yeah. I am really slow because it takes a really strong person to receive real. And so and I don't do that to be mean or whatever, I just don't want to waste my breath. And I told her, I said, hey, here's how I experience you.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And she cried, and I hurt her, but she got married a couple years later. And it changed, and I think she was so desperate that she wanted to hear this. And so what I would say is her experience is the experience. Most people will talk about us, not to us. And I think Andrea was aware that people were talking about her, but they weren't talking to her.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I just would say to Christians, that's a sin to talk about people. The Greek word in in Titus chapter one for gossip is diablos, which in Spanish is devil. You guys are Hispanic, right? I'm pointing at two people, I'm hoping I'm not being racist, they are Hispanic. Yes.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So diablos is devil. So the word the Apostle Paul uses in that specific instance in Titus to refer to gossip as devil ing. So it is a behavior of the devil. And what I would just say to this person is, most people would rather talk about you than deal with themselves. And that's just the way of the world.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

The world is in love with self righteousness. So I'm amazing, you're terrible, I don't know why you don't get that. Here's why the gospel is so hard to share. We're all terrible, and we're all dead in our sins, and we need the gospel. Now, I'm not saying every person is a serial murderer, but I am saying that most of us have gossiped and slandered somebody.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I've done it. I've been so convicted by it. I've been confronted by it. I've been challenged by it. It's something that I work on and I still catch myself doing.

Tammy Brown:

Yeah. Same.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

What I would say is, if you have bravery, I would just sit down with him. It's not going go well. And I would just say, if you decide not to quit, I would just say, hey, it's getting back to me that you guys are saying these things. I don't think I'm that way, but if I am that way, can you help me on where and how I could need to change?

Tammy Brown:

That's good.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

But don't anticipate it to go well. Remember years ago we were doing the hike to Mount Rubidou on Easter morning? Mhmm. And so we were walking down the mountain from Rubidou, and if you're a debrief listener, it's not a mountain, it's a hill on the Mill Riverside, but we call it Mount Yeah.

Scott Schutte:

We were

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

walking down a path and this woman was going off on Sandals Church, and how dare they take all the parking spaces, ruin this stuff, and she was just ripping us, and I said, I interjected and I said, well, I'm the pastor of Sandals Church. How can I help? She lost her mind. And what I realized is, oh, she doesn't doesn't want any kind of reconciliation, she just wants to vent. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And and so I just, you know, I just had to laugh and walk away and

Tammy Brown:

Well, that's what I was going to say. A couple things. I did I left out a small portion of the question just just because it was nuanced and it's long, and I was trying to cut it. But it said, a friend is sharing this with that person.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And

Tammy Brown:

so here's some curiosities I have when I see that, like, you're at a workplace, and your friend, I'm using air quotes, keeps coming and telling you what everybody else is saying about you. You know, we've been in situations like that where we have had that. We have had people who don't like us, even even here, who are going to people to talk about us, and then people now coming to us going, hey. This is what's said about you. And I've had to ask the question before of, like, why do they always feel like it's okay to talk to you about this?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

And I've had to have the conversation of, I actually need you not to be the person like, if you're my people

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

I need you not to be the people that people are going to about me. Mhmm. And I got pushed back, you know, over the years of like, well, but I would never say anything bad about you. And I've had to say, this isn't about whether you would or you wouldn't. It's about me not feeling safe.

Tammy Brown:

Like, I need my friends to not be the dumping ground about me.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right.

Tammy Brown:

If you can't do that, I can understand that, then I have to make a choice about the proximity that you have in my life Yes. Moving forward. Because it is interesting how how people who want to put people down find people in proximity to those people that they don't have the courage to maybe say what they wanna say. And then another side to that that this question makes me think of as just a personal when I've walked through something so similar to this is and you challenge me on this all the time.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Lovingly.

Tammy Brown:

Anytime mostly lovingly. You know, in times where people have something super negative to say about me, you always say what's true and what's not, decipher through it. Yeah. You can work on that. You've gotta let the the thing away.

Tammy Brown:

What I tend to do, which I think most people, not everyone, most people tend to do is we go, well, if they said it, it must be true about me. And I think a a lens and a discipline to start to grow in maturity relationally is saying, not everything that people say about you is actually about you. It does speak a whole lot more about them. And maybe a posture to take is, like, everything they're saying maybe isn't all about you. You need to examine.

Tammy Brown:

Like, I've had to examine, like, what if this is probably true? Have I struggled with? Have I done? Could be annoying that I haven't thought of. How can I grow?

Tammy Brown:

And another is maybe that person is just a person that talks about people

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Constantly to avoid dealing with themselves.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yes. Amen. Now you're preaching. That's my job.

Tammy Brown:

Do Maybe it's not all about all of the bad things you're doing at work. So I would you know, what I would say is I would tell your friend, listen. I appreciate your feedback to me. You're a friend, if you have something to speak, otherwise, I I need a few things from you. I need you, a, maybe to tell people like, hey.

Tammy Brown:

I love so and so. I'm probably not the person to come to with your grievances about them.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

Find someone else because it puts me in a weird situation. And then also, I need you to stop telling me what everybody bad is saying about me. Yeah. Because what it what good does that do? Because then it does make it about them.

Tammy Brown:

So, you know, I think there's some boundaries that need to be put in place, and let let them have their opinion of you. Like, you know right now, I'm on a big let them theory Yeah.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Deal. Mel Robbins is helping me literally mentally mature in some of these ways. Let them, but then let you. If if it doesn't change and you're not okay with it, let you make a new decision to go work somewhere else, and maybe you endure it for a while, but you don't have to be there.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I I think we just, you know, we have a friend and I don't want to say her name, but she just took an intentional demotion from one hospital to another, makes $8 an hour less because the people at the other hospital were so toxic and I said, how is it? And she said, wonderful. She would rather make less money and be with good people than make more money and be with backstabbers and gossips and slanderers. And I just think you have to, so oftentimes, right, we make money, you know, is the measurement of happiness and success. Well, you know, if if somebody's destroying you, it doesn't matter how much money you make, if you're miserable, you're miserable.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And money can't buy happiness, so I would say make less money and be somewhere Mhmm. You know, where you're happy. You got to pay your bills, but

Tammy Brown:

Right. Right.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You know, you you you're not a slave. You don't have to stay in a job, you know, you you you don't there's a reason they pay you. You you you are you are not obligated to be there. So

Tammy Brown:

I remember being in a situation like this, and and the person telling me all of the bad things that someone is saying about me, and I knew those same people were saying terrible things about them when they're not in the room Mhmm. Which tends to be very true about how gossips are full. Yeah. People who struggle with that work. Right?

Tammy Brown:

And I remember in my mind thinking, you're so lucky you have the luxury of not knowing what they say about you when you're not in the room. Yeah. I remember having that luxury. Now, I just know what they say about me and how painful that is. And that's a part of not everything someone says about you is true.

Tammy Brown:

Mhmm. Like, you you do need to be self self reflective Mhmm. Be real with yourself, But also, over time, people who are that way, who are constantly talking about people, other people get it, and they start to see it, and people make their own Yeah. And and, like, reveal their own reputation. So you think the reputation's about you.

Tammy Brown:

Over time, it'll be about them, but there are some boundaries. You're not defenseless. You can stick up for yourself. You can tell the friend always telling you, I need you to just stop telling me. And if we are friends, I need you to stop.

Tammy Brown:

You know, a a thing you and I have been dealing with a lot lately is like, kind of wondering like, like, is everybody at work a friend? Mhmm. Or are some people colleagues?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. That's the word we used to call.

Tammy Brown:

And that that's where we

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

get Not for any of you.

Tammy Brown:

That's where you get it's just it's a good under mental understanding because this person's saying, my friend at work is always telling me, well, maybe they're just your colleague and they're not your friend. Yeah. You know, and it's different. And then when you see them as a colleague, it's like, okay. You're maybe less offended that they're listening.

Tammy Brown:

So there is some maturing relationally and some nuances here for that person. But it's a great question, and it it I'm so sorry for whoever's going through that because we have both been there, and it is never fun. And yeah. So good luck with that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm.

Tammy Brown:

Okay. Next question comes from Letty in Rialto, California. The question is, my family has been at odds because of Trump's deportation of immigrants. I'm so glad I'm not answering this anymore. One daughter says, God would not support illegals breaking the law.

Tammy Brown:

I, however, disagree. I think God would be compassionate. What does the Bible say is right when it comes to this?

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Well, so the Bible is an ancient book where borders moved and most most countries were city states. So we would not say we're American or Californian, we would say we're Riversideian. And so that's kind of the way. So it's just it's just different. Borders were much more fluid.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It's not until really the British that they just love lines. You know, they love drawing lines and measuring things, the British and the French. So we can thank them for all these wonderful things that we have around the world. And so borders borders are a relatively new thing, you know. In the ancient world, there were rivers, mountains, and seas, bodies of water, established borders.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so now we have these arbitrary lines drawn. I do think they should be respected, and I do think they think that they are important. What I want Christians to do on this issue is you have to learn to think like a Christian about theological things, and then you have to have another mind to think like an American and as a citizen. And so what I what I what I mean by that is let's take the issue of abortion. So as as a Christian, right, what do you think I think about abortion?

Tammy Brown:

That it's wrong.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. I don't know why you hesitated. I think it's I think it's wrong and it's immoral.

Tammy Brown:

I didn't

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

hesitate. So, as an American, right, whether or not a woman has the right to do that as a citizen is debatable. So those are two different issues. The moral question is developed by the Bible. The whether or a woman has the right to do that, that's a legal question.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

These things run, you know, down the gamut. Like I have real opinions about marijuana and again, for everybody who owns a dispensary out there, please tithe. But I am against marijuana. I don't think it's good, I think it you are intoxicated every time that you smoke it, I think it does terrible things to people's minds. Think it's awful.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's my moral opinion on marijuana. Do I believe that my moral opinion dictates what people do to their own bodies and what they smoke and how they ingest? See what I'm saying? So that's a little less controversial issue, where I have a moral value and judgment, but I also understand that as an American citizen, I don't want your morals to dictate my life. It's why, you know, I tend to be a libertarian, and they're the most unpopular position on earth.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You know, and I'm just, you know, kind of, you do your you, just don't mess with me and let me worship God in my way. And that never happens, that's why nobody ever votes libertarian. So, on this issue, what would God say about immigration? God cares about immigrants. I mean, you know, people have to move borders.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Jesus moved borders. Jesus had to flee. But also, have to understand Jesus went from Nazareth to Bethlehem because the Romans said to. Mary and Joseph weren't like, you know what, let's go on a hike. Was the government said, we want to do this census.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You could argue whether it was moral or not, she was pregnant, whether they should have to do it or not, whether it was right. You know, they're an indigenous people group, and you got white dudes from Rome, tell them, you can do all that stuff. Mary Joseph just did it. And so, and God still worked in it. And so I think that governments have to be governments, and and Romans said governments ordained by God to carry out rules and enact just justice.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's what God says the purpose of governments are. But there are gonna be things within that that I disagree with. I don't agree with prostitution. It makes me sick, you know. But that's me.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so morally I'm on this hand, but the reality is people are going to do that. So I don't know that I have an answer for that specifically. That's something for politicians and cities to figure out, because if it gets out of control, it's really bad. It's terrible for communities, for people, for a situation The whole thing is ugly, so it's got to be regulated. And so I think with this issue, what we need to do is say, look, God says very clearly that we have to have a heart for people that are downtrodden and downcast.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And here's the thing, if we were in Nicaragua, if we were in Honduras, if we were in some of the Central American countries, if we were in Colombia, what's the one with the dictator with all the oil? Not Ecuador, Venezuela, right? They should be the richest country in South America, but it's absolutely broken. I would try to illegally immigrate here without question, because here's the thing, America is the greatest country on earth. Poor people in America do not immigrate to other countries.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Period. Poor people in America are not flocking to China. Poor people in China are doing whatever they can to cross the border at Mexico. So I have to have compassion and understand that for them. I also understand that a government's got to govern, and there's got to be a process by which people come in and can assimilate and we can handle that, and what I would say is I'm not a politician, the border's a problem.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I would say this, it's to every person out there who feels compassion for these people, need to understand it's run by the cartel, these oftentimes are sex trafficked children, people with gunpoint, packing in drugs, this is an evil organization that is smuggling these people across, and it's terrible. We need better organization to allow more people to immigrate and allow them to come in, but it needs to be moral and above board, and I would say legal. You know, but I'm not going to lose, you're never going to hear me preach a sermon on that or whatever, and you know, I don't care the citizenship status of anybody in our church. My job is to love them and preach for them, but I understand that, you know, America's got to do their job, and I would say I don't understand Trump's deportation plan, but as far as I understand, it's criminals is where they're starting. I don't want known criminals and assailants to be on our streets and we don't know who they are or where they've come from, but we know they've done a crime.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I don't want those around our girls, I don't want that around our grandson. America's got enough wackos, we don't need to inherit any more from other countries. So I want to make sure that it's safe, think that as Christians we can say, look, we want to have this open door to allow as many people as possible, but we need to know who they are and what they're about. And I think that's important. And here's what I think is missing.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

A lot of these immigrants immigrate into poor communities where it's already a mess, it's already chaos, their resources are already stretched, and oftentimes it increases crime in those areas and harms those people the most. The people that are the most desperate, the most downtrodden in those areas. You know what San Bernardino doesn't need any more of? Crime. And oftentimes when you have desperate people that have immigrated illegally, they can't work, they have to resort to crime to support themselves.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So it creates a huge problem. So here's what I would say is, what's really important here is to love each other as a family and try to say, look, here's what I've learned about my government. I don't always know what they're doing, and they've not always been honest with me about how they're doing. So I just, now with political issues, I'm just like, man, I don't know. And I realize many of you have a podcast and a chart and a graph, and you've got it all figured out.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I just don't anymore because the misinformation that comes from media, from government itself is oftentimes so confusing. I don't know what the truth is. What I would say this is God's will, really it's the wrong question. God's will is for your family. Is that you would love each other even though you disagree, and that you learn to hear each other out and still love each at the end of the day.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Here's what's wrong with politics. It splits families. Mhmm. And so it's splitting this family. One daughter says this, another daughter says this.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Now we don't talk. That can't be the win. The win is we need to be able to passionately disagree and have conversation, and hopefully try to, you know, share our side, you know. That's that's my opinion on that. You know, I think Trump is a lightning rod and, you know

Tammy Brown:

Well, that's what I was going to say is, know, you and I have talked recently about it says or you said something like, from what you understand, it's starting with the criminals and

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

I could be wrong. So don't hate me.

Tammy Brown:

Leave our church yeah. Yeah. I think people should do a little bit of research. Recently. I follow two different people in particular on social media.

Tammy Brown:

And every single day when I see their stories, it couldn't be more polarizing. Yeah. Like, one person is like like, if you want to believe everything horrible about Trump, everything in your algorithm is just gonna feed and pump you with clickbait and every single thing. If you wanted to believe everything was horrible about previously Biden, I know Trump's president now, like, that's what you're going to see. And so that's what I think we have to be so careful of in this day and age is like what the media is wanting us to believe to support whoever they support, however they support it.

Tammy Brown:

And so you can't just say like, Trump's taking children and throwing, like, whatever. Or or if it was Biden doing whatever. Like, you have to really do some research on your own. I'm tending to start to believe that everything the media is saying is with a bias, with an agenda. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

And and then you have families splitting up over what the algorithm is now feeding them based on whatever. So I just I think it's so important to actually go, well, let me understand a little bit more about what Trump's policy really is or whoever's policy really is or whatever the risk issue is. And be so careful to all of us to react, you know, if if let's say this the one daughter, like, all she's seeing is this is what's happening. Instead of being like, that's wrong. Like, you know what?

Tammy Brown:

I actually I haven't read that. I'm gonna I'll look that up a little more. Maybe I need to research more. But I think all of us need to be so mindful to not read a headline, not read a story. You and I have read stories.

Tammy Brown:

We've read stories about ourselves where we're like, that actually couldn't be farther from the truth. But it sold things and that's the point to sell things, to support, to create a divide. And it's working in your family, and so all you can do as depends on you is don't attack your daughter, your sister, whatever daughter is against or differing from you, maybe ask some curious questions, say, let's let's both do a little bit more research and talk about it. But at the end of the day, nothing out there is worth me and you being divided, like, kind of a deal. But it is interesting how you can find so much evidence to support

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

The side you want to just to support based on what the media's doing. So that's a great answer on a tough

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

Thing. I'm glad you had to do it.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Well, you. So, Leti, I would say, you know, God cares about the immigrants, but God also cares about your mom and your dad and your family. And I prayed with a Hispanic woman and a white man, they were married, believe, I can't confirm that, but they came up for prayer because their daughters had called them Nazis. Because they were Trump supporters.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And so I just, that just broke my heart. And that's not to say that I am a Trump supporter, it's just to say, look, that's where the toxic level of politics has gotten. You know, you have children calling a woman of color a Nazi. Like it's just so bizarre to me. And I just said I'm so sorry, and I just prayed for them.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

You know, what I would say to young people is your views and your ideas and understanding of politics will change. I don't know whether it will go left or right, but it will change, and you will have clarity that you just can't have when you're younger. And again, like I said, immigration a huge issue. It's a complex issue. And you know, on the one hand, it's about people needing freedom and food, and I think that's important, and God's on that side.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

On the other hand, it's about gangsters, the cartel, smuggling and selling people, and that is condemned in the Bible. That's condemned. And so we can't just act like these are all freedom loving people seeking work when some of them are being sold as slaves into our country. And

Tammy Brown:

because And some are coming to harm and not do good.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

So not everybody coming is

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right.

Tammy Brown:

Is trying to flee some kind of

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

situation. It's like when we when we bring people to Israel, you know, they all think, oh my gosh, this is God's country, everybody loves each other, and I always love when Moshe, he's our guide. He's like, no, we have our share of idiots, criminals and pedophiles too. Know, so there's no no group no group of people is perfect. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That's the challenge with immigration, you know. I'm sure

Tammy Brown:

many of them And it's so nuanced. It's not just cut and dry about it.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And I think that's that's the thing that's so weird now is, right, everybody wants to make it black and white and you know, you just got to figure it out. And so as Christians, right, we got to think with two brains. Our God brain and then our citizenship brain. Countries have to function. That's a reality.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And as Christians, we need to be compassionate. And so as churches, like our $5.20 offering that we're getting ready to give to buy kids back in the name of Jesus. And I think that's really, really important. And the problem with so much of social media, Righteousness is outrage. I make a post, I make an insult, and therefore I'm good.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And really what we want to do as Christians is really try to make a difference and make a change. And it's not just the immigration issue at our border, it's across the globe. People don't eat, people are starving, women are mistreated, and children are sold into slavery. The world is an evil place. And we want to be concerned and compassionate to all of them, and that's hard.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I'll be praying for you, Letty. That's a great question. And it's just really, really tough. So

Tammy Brown:

Yeah. That's great. That's great. Thank you. Okay.

Tammy Brown:

This final question today comes from Chris in Haroopa Valley, California. And I won't speak to this, so I'll just read you the question. It says, what advice would you give a Christian man who is trying to balance being a son of God, a husband, a father, a brother, and a friend? I think those are all things similar that you manage on the Oh, sweet.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Well, I try. Chris, let me just say, this is probably one of my favorite questions ever. I love to hear that there are men out there that are trying to do these things. And if you're a woman and you've given up, find Chris. So he's out there.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Right?

Tammy Brown:

If Chris is taken, leave We're sorry. Yeah. Yeah. We're sorry. He's off limits.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So what advice would I give a Christian man who's trying to balance being a no. A husband. A husband. We

Tammy Brown:

Playing his back.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Sorry, Chris. I just made you

Tammy Brown:

say Sorry. Chris' wife. Yeah.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

What I would say is way to go. You are a son of God and I think that's an awesome thing. And so, what I would say is as you pursue these things, stay humble. Just continue to admit that you're learning and you don't know. Mhmm.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

We just had a discussion this morning where I said something that I thought was a compliment and you communicated to me that it was an insult. I literally was like, oh my gosh, now early Matt Brown would've got upset, I would've got offended, I would have snapped back. And older, more wiser Matt Brown just went, oh, I'm so sorry, that's not what I meant. You know, because like younger Matt Brown, I'm never good enough, you always think I got it wrong, I got, know, I go on this rant. And so, like, just a godly husband is someone who understands you get it wrong and that's okay.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It's not okay to be wrong, but it's okay to admit that and say you're sorry. And that's what I would say that what you got to do. I think for a father, I would just say this, you know, as we're holding our grandson, and I look at Chris, you guys can't see him, but I can see him. You know, it goes so fast. Just enjoy it and love every moment of it.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It's hard, but it's so fast. And know, parenthood is challenging thing, but it's a beautiful thing. And it's something that I wish more young people wanted to do. I see more and more young people kind of pushing marriage off and pushing parenting off, and I think it helps you grow up. I think it teaches you how selfish you are, how self centered you are, and but how much more God can do in your life.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So I I've loved how parenthood challenged me and blessed me. And so I would just say stay humble in that as a father. And then as a brother, you know, I'm guessing he means as, like he's got siblings, I would just say love your family. One of the shows Tammy and I are watching, it's an old show, I think it was 2010 to 2015, it's called And we just started watching it because we're ten years behind everyone else. But what I love about this show is I love watching the siblings interact, and there's this scene where one of the the siblings, the brothers had done something terrible to an older brother.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And the sister challenged the older brother with, what our brother did was awful, terrible, and evil, and wrong, and I'm not saying that it was right, but you are his brother, and you have to forgive him because you don't have another. And I just think we've to remember that family. It's really easy to discard family, get wounded, and move on, but as Christians, we're called to really love our family and care for our families. You know, that's what breaks my heart, you know, with Leti's question. I think God's heart is broken for the suffering of people around the world.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It's broken for the, you know, the treatment of minorities in America, but it's also broken for families who are looking for every opportunity to split up because they disagree. And love is not loving each other because we agree and see things the same way. Love is saying I'm in this even though we disagree. Mhmm. So I would encourage you to do that.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And then I would just say as a friend, when you're these things, a son of God, a husband, a father, a brother, I think it's hard to be a friend. And you and I have recently reached out to some friends. You met with the wife, I met with the husband, and we just had to say sorry. Like, we've not managed our friendship well, and I was out to breakfast with this guy in our church, and we've been friends, well, since college, but I don't know how long he'd been at Sandals, twenty five years. And we were sitting at breakfast and I just said, man, I'm really sorry I wasn't, I didn't handle our friendship well as I've been your pastor.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

And he just started crying. And I don't even think he said anything other than I forgive you, which was nice. But he was so shocked by it, and so I just think when you get all these things on your plate, it's really, really hard to continue to juggle friendship. And let me say this, friendships need to change as you become a husband, a father, and a professional. Because you can't be, it can't be the way it was.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

So here's the lie, you can add a wife, you can add a kid, you can add a career, and the friendship gets the same amount of time. It just doesn't. Everybody has twenty four hours in a day, everybody has seven days a week. And so when you say yes to a wife, that means friends have to say no to time. When you say yes to kids, that means friends get less time.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

When you say yes to pursuing a career, growing in your skills, right, your friends, and if they love you, they're willing to take that backseat. That's not what I did with our friend, I just didn't know how to manage and I say this humbly, I don't mean this arrogantly at all. Our fame, I didn't handle that well.

Tammy Brown:

I would say recognition.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

There we go. That's a better word, that's a more humble word. So thank God for a wife on the show. Didn't know how to handle our recognition and manage relationships intentions. And with the growing recognition and fame, there was also a growing recognition and criticism.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

It was equal. And I didn't handle either of those well. And so, you know, I just, this is a really sweet person that still loves us, you know, and is so great.

Tammy Brown:

And didn't get the best version

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

of And didn't get the best version of me. And so but my kids have not always got the best version of me. You have not always got the best version of me. My parents have not always got the best version of me. And so I think part of being a Christian man, Chris, is just admitting you're gonna blow it and be the to apologize and say, I'm so sorry.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

Mhmm. And, you know, that that that's what it means to be a Christian. So

Tammy Brown:

Can I add to that? I said I wasn't gonna add because obviously, I'm not balancing how to be a Christian man, husband, whatever. But I think what when we all are getting the best version of you, and I shared this with you recently, it's when you are the most connected to who you wanna be because who God calls you to be. Mhmm. So I I've said this to my daughter so many times and and to my son in his own way, but I've told my girls, like, you want your husband to love God more than you because you get the best version of who he can be as a result of that, which has nothing to do with you.

Tammy Brown:

I said there are seasons when your dad, you, has been the best husband, friend Yeah. Partner to me that's had nothing to do with me or your love for me, but had everything to do with the kind of man you know God's calling you to be, who he tells you to be to me as a dad, as a husband, as a partner, which isn't which isn't like I did something to earn that. That's completely been between you and God. Yeah. And so I I would say when we're when you're balancing that the best is when God and your time with him, the time in the word, your time in prayer, we get the outpouring of the best of balancing the rest of that because you're doing it between you and God, not between me and

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

you Yeah.

Tammy Brown:

You and the kids, you and our friends. And when we get the worst version of you, it's been when that's lacking and you're doing on your own energy, on your own motive, on your own feelings, on your own ambition Mhmm. Then we get the worst version of you. And so that's that's I don't know if that's helpful, but that's been my experience with you personally. And so, yeah, these are great questions.

Tammy Brown:

So for everybody, thank you guys so much for listening to this week's episode. Great job on some very, very nuanced and tricky questions. I'm like, we're gonna tackle immigration today. Okay.

Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:

That was not my idea. That was your question. So

Tammy Brown:

But it's a good question, and that's what we wanna do here on this podcast is answer questions that are real that might not be easy, but they're real. So if you appreciate this, we just encourage you to subscribe to it. Share it with friends that might have these similar questions that maybe you don't wanna answer, but Matt Matt will stick his neck out on the line and answer for you. And if you have questions, send them in to us. But if this show is meaningful to you and the ministry of Sandals Church, we would love to have you help support us here by going to sandalschurchchurch.com/support and help make all of this possible.

Tammy Brown:

It is a worthy cause that's helping what we hope is a lot of people as they navigate what it looks like to become more like Jesus, a disciple of him, and grow in discipling others. So it's just it's something meaningful, and all of your support matters so so much to us. So thank you for listening, supporting the show, trusting us with some very hard questions, and we'll see you next time.

Scott Schutte:

Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.

Scott Schutte:

If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.