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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. And welcome to The Debrief, man. This is another exciting episode. Still enjoying the new studio. What do you like?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Are the digs?
Justin Kowalski:I love it. Yes. Love it. Looks good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. We're spending your time, dollars. I appreciate all
Justin Kowalski:the time work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I know. Oh my gosh. So Justin has been a part of Sandals for how long?
Justin Kowalski:Man. You should know. I've been coming since '99.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:1999. Yeah. And I met you when your sisters thought you were going to hell. I don't know if you remember this.
Justin Kowalski:Yep. I remember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So they were worried that you were, like, demon possessed or something. I don't know. No. You were just an upset young angry teenager, but your dad was dying of cancer. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so that's not funny at all, but all of the other stuff that I make fun of him is completely okay to make fun
Justin Kowalski:True true and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:funny. So yeah. So they were worried about you. Yeah. And so they asked me to come talk to you, and that's how we met.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And you didn't wanna talk to me at all. You were like what's funny is you're the nicest human being I've ever met, and I thought he was this thug, like scary thug.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And because you're kinda thick. You know? I mean, we could say husky.
Justin Kowalski:I know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Are we that close?
Justin Kowalski:I'm powerful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You're powerful. I you know? Hey. There's a reason Poland has the number one army in Europe right now, so he is Polish.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Always die in movies. Kowalski.
Justin Kowalski:That's alright. Kowalski always You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:always fight hard.
Justin Kowalski:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's how we met. Mhmm. And I remember your dad was on the couch. You were in your bedroom. You were super angry and mad.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's the thing is, I thought it flopped. I was like, that guy hates me. Yeah. Never gonna meet him again, know him again, and you've become like one of my best friends in life, and we've worked together for over twenty years. Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:Like That's wild.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say to everybody, if the Holy Spirit is prompting you and his two sisters loved him.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If the Holy Spirit is prompting you to, you know, someone in your life that you love to talk with your pastor, man, don't block that because you don't know what's gonna happen. It could be Justin and Matt, and we've been together for a long time. You have seen Sandals in almost every stage
Justin Kowalski:of
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the game and been on staff. Now you're a pastor. Just just incredible, incredible just time together. But this is Justin Kowalski, everybody. He's an amazing guy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And if if you really wanna know what was Sandals like Oh, no. This is somebody that can talk to you that still likes me, which is that's good. Right? Because some of
Justin Kowalski:Oh, I love you, bro. I love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Thank you. So you've known all the phases of Matt Brown. I think you've seen every hairstyle. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Every color, every length.
Justin Kowalski:This is my favorite. This is my favorite. This is this is as close as I'm gonna get to you right now Oh. Is with this haircut.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm loving the buzz.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. Mustache The is great too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thank you.
Justin Kowalski:You know I'm always commenting, leave the mustache.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. A lot of people are it's interesting. Nobody asks a question about my sermon
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But people have comments about the mustache. And here's here's the truth. As long as Tammy says it's good, we're good with it, and this is what this is wives, dude. She's like, I don't know that I love you, but I love you. That's what she said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Which is like, oh, man. That's kinda hurtful. So but anyways. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So is this your first time on the debrief or no?
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is my first time. Blows my mind.
Justin Kowalski:It blows mine too. I've I've tried before. I think there was always scheduling and then Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think you are you are so I'm the longest employee.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Probably Tammy.
Justin Kowalski:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't know who's next Jamie or you.
Justin Kowalski:It's Jamie. Jamie's got me by like two and a half years, I think. Oh, Oh, wow. Maybe three. Started in 2004.
Justin Kowalski:Okay. That's when I started.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And So What did you get hired as?
Justin Kowalski:We were doing Purpose Driven Life came out, and we were doing a small group curriculum. And there was like, y'all need you we need help. We needed someone to make DVDs and edit video. And I like, oh, I can do that. Because I that's why I went to Florida.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can write books, but he can't draw.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. So that's what that was my initial, like, thing. I was serving at that point, I was serving on the youth team, and the youth leader at the time was like, hey. What's up, coworker? And I'm like, yeah, man.
Justin Kowalski:Co laborers. We're doing work together. And he's like, no. They wanna hire you. Do you remember who hired you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was it me?
Justin Kowalski:It was you, but by proxy of your brother. Your he sat down with me in the CBU gym. He's like, hey, buddy. Wanna hire you. And like, now when people work for sandals, it takes like, you know, seven seven months.
Justin Kowalski:Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. We didn't even know what HR was when you got hired.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I was like, I had a little handshake in the gym. I was like Yeah. Yeah. Can show up.
Justin Kowalski:I said, give me two weeks. I have to quit my construction job.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I thought you were security for a store.
Justin Kowalski:I did that. That was I I quit that, like, probably six months. I did loss prevention on cameras
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and stuff. I like that loss prevention.
Justin Kowalski:That's what it was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He was chasing all y'all, stealing stuff out of Walgreens. That was you. Yeah. Yep.
Justin Kowalski:It was great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever catch somebody from sandals stealing?
Justin Kowalski:Probably. Not mean, I wouldn't know, but there there was I I actually actually caught someone I went to high school with one time. Like, bro, you gotta be kidding me. And so yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Dude, we've caught people at Sandals Church stealing. Like, one time, you know how we sell the shirts in the what do they call that? The coffee shop? Yeah. Like, this gal was walking out with like nine shirts.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, she had like a stack of nine shirts, she's like, oh, I thought they were free. I was like, it says $20 right next to it in bold print, but she was gonna steal from her church. I was like, look, if you need a shirt
Justin Kowalski:Join a team.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Know, we'll give you yeah.
Justin Kowalski:Join a team. Join a team.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now it'll be red
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Or blue Yeah. But it's crazy the things that
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That Christians will do.
Justin Kowalski:It would well, it was it was a wild job, man. Like because some of it was sad, some of it was like silly, and then some of it was like people are just bored. Most people steal because they're bored. Mhmm. That's that's what I kinda like experience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I have never stolen something from a store.
Justin Kowalski:Really? No. Oh, man. I did as a kid. I remember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Maybe I did as a kid too. Yeah. I think maybe when I was in first grade, a spider Yeah. From like a like a, I don't know, toy store
Justin Kowalski:or something. I I stole a little Mickey Mouse figurine. I know that. But my mom walked me back in and I had to, like, talk to someone, like a some type of, like, manager or whatever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But Yeah, man. Remember the seventies were or that was maybe eighties.
Justin Kowalski:His eighties.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Mine was a seventies. That was that was for real. I was watching this comedian, and I I wanna have this guy you know, we just did the Sandals date night Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we had a magician. It was great. I wanna bring this comedian, and he's a clean comedian. Mhmm. But he is so funny.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's this guy from the South, and he talks about growing up as a kid and getting spanked in Target.
Justin Kowalski:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And he just was like, other parents would just like chime in. Yeah. You gotta listen to your mother. Know? And he was like, nobody nowadays gets spanked.
Justin Kowalski:Like, people
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:call the police if you spank a kid in Target now. He's like, and that's how I grew up, dude. Yeah. My mom my mom bought a spoon at Disneyland in the seventies and beat my brother and I with it at the park Yeah. Because we were being so bad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I remember it had ears, and she she whacked us with the spoon with ears. And that was the seventies, bro.
Justin Kowalski:And you can see then you can see the mark later, like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's why we're so hardcore. But nobody thought anything. They're just like, oh, yeah. That kid that kid needed it. And I'm not encouraging people to beat their children.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just saying
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Things have changed.
Justin Kowalski:Some discipline's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Some things have changed. So, yeah, we had parents that sent us back, you know.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. And you learn, you're like, I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not easy to be like, steal from that oligarch. He's a billionaire, you know, and so. Okay. Alright. So let's talk about the Holy Spirit and the creative process.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So here's what people don't know about you, I know about you. You're incredibly creative. You have been since I've known you, which is hilarious that you were working in construction.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. That's what you do with art degrees. Okay. With art degrees. You work in construction.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right away, I mean, some of the best creative stuff we did. If you wanna go back and look at just really, really great ideas, great creativity, I think about Inked, the series that you worked on, Mission Impossible. My favorite element that you ever did, and I don't even know if we can find this in the archives, but we were talking about how slowly stains us, and you set up that camera, and we had a bucket of white paint, and we dumped black ink into it, and we mixed it, and you couldn't see it.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's kind of how works, and so Justin set up this camera in real time, so as I'm talking about sin, I keep pouring in black paint, but mixing it and you can't see it. But by the end of the message, the paint is no longer white, the color's been changed. Yeah. And that's what happens with sin in our lives is, you know, things that we never thought we would become, places we never thought we would go when we just add a little sin in, and and that was, and I'm not talking about me. That was your idea.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, that was that was sheer brilliance. My favorite was Mission Impossible series
Justin Kowalski:M twenty eight nineteen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:M yeah. M twenty eight nineteen. Copy. But we filmed at midnight in a what was it? A
Justin Kowalski:It was well It was behind
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a grocery store. Let's call it an alley.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I showed up early because Justin is easy to scare. This is back before HR, so we didn't have rules or anything like that. And I I got to the set early, like at midnight, and I waited for him.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He pulls up in his car. We're in this alley. It's all dark. I'm hiding behind a dumpster. I don't know if you remember this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I remember. And he's setting up the gear, and I jump out and scream at you, and you punched yourself in the face. Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:Do you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:remember that? So like, he meant to like he meant to like go like this, but
Justin Kowalski:like Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, and it was the funniest moment. And I told your wife when you guys got married, was like, look, man, if you ever get jumped, he's gonna knock himself out.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So But I just you guys believe that I did that? Like, I I fully just waited. And here's here's the crazy
Justin Kowalski:was midnight. I know. I was a scary it was a scary spot. It was a scary
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:part of town too. I I never thought about what could happen to me. Yeah. I just was like, you know what? I'm gonna hide behind this dumpster.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What could go wrong? Yeah. So
Justin Kowalski:I was trying to protect our church equipment
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know.
Justin Kowalski:At the same time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. You did. Yeah. You did. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Holy Spirit and the creative process.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How do you feel like you sense God through creativity? Because you are so good at it.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I I there's a lot there's a lot to inviting the Lord into your work, you know, and sometimes sometimes it's just like you have inspiration right away. Right? Mhmm. Sometimes it comes from you don't you have to sometimes you really have to, like, process and sit down and say, okay, Lord, what are we trying to do here?
Justin Kowalski:Mhmm. And the most important part, I think, is being willing to actually cut things out. You know, the editing process, I think, is one of the most spiritual disciplines you can do as a creative.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's so good.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I mean, it's John 15. Right? Yeah. Like, God you know, if you're willing to say, hey.
Justin Kowalski:You know, this is taking away from the actual message, because you have to separate and I would say in the roles that we had, especially at church, I'm not creating for myself. I'm creating for the purpose of, like, what are we trying to say as a church? What is, you know, pastor Matt wanting you to do? What what is God trying to teach our church? And so what we're trying to do is visually support it.
Justin Kowalski:Right? And so it's important to, a, invite the Lord in and take yourself out sometimes. That makes sense. It's still personal. Like, when you create art, it's personal.
Justin Kowalski:Like, I don't wanna, like know, I know there's creatives that get really sensitive. Right? I think what I was good at doing is saying, what are we effectively trying to communicate? Mhmm. And not take it personal.
Justin Kowalski:I remember a story. I don't remember what the series was, but it was about giving. And It's always about giving, bro.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're the pro the brokest megachurch on Earth.
Justin Kowalski:But we did this we went out and we filmed in the hills, probably out here thinking. Okay. We we, know, we were we were planting seeds, and it looked like JJ Abrams filled it with, like, light rays and all this stuff. Right? And you came in, and you were gracious.
Justin Kowalski:You're like, man, this looks great. This is not what we need. And you were like, you know what I want? I want to say, in God we trust, because we don't. That's what you said.
Justin Kowalski:I remember you came in, and we're like, alright. And so in, like, two or three hours, we put together something like visual package. And it was like money, but it was like moving currency pieces and whatever. And you're like, that was it. And the team, was like, you know, this is it's okay.
Justin Kowalski:It was this was not a loss. We still had a good
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:can be sensitive.
Justin Kowalski:They can. And I was like and I and I feel like my yeah. It's it's it's true. Like, it you you feel like it's a rejection. It's not a rejection of yourself.
Justin Kowalski:It's like, hey. That idea wasn't even bad. It just wasn't the right idea for what we're trying to do. And so I've anyways, I I think when you when you're inviting the Lord into your work, I feel like, a, he's gonna protect your heart. Right?
Justin Kowalski:He's also gonna guide what you what needs to get done. Yeah. And so and I think that I think that's hard for a lot of creatives. Think it's hard for a lot of people who do things in general, but would like when you feel like, oh, my my job, everything that I'm doing, everything I'm putting out there, it's a reflection of myself, and it's a rejection. Like, that's really hard.
Justin Kowalski:So I I think it's important to, a, be prayerful in in the project, and give it give it some time too because your first idea sometimes isn't the best idea. Right? Sometimes it is. It's not in all cases, but, like, process. And that's why it's good to doodle in notes and and ideate.
Justin Kowalski:I think that's that's like a spiritual discipline is is is thinking and pausing and processing and and working with other people, inviting other people in because creatives can be very, like, insular too. Like, oh, it's my idea. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, give your idea away, invite people in because you make the best stuff.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, and I would say, you know, I'm just thinking out loud on the spot.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So if you're a creative person and it's all about you, then how much of it is it about God? Yeah. And so if you truly wanna glorify God and it's all you and nobody can speak into your, you know, pinpoint artwork or whatever it is that you're doing, then, you know, God's probably not gonna use that and bless that. And it's okay to have disagreements about creativity. I mean, you and I almost got into a fight one time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know if you remember this. Now just so you know, this is not 54 year old Matt Brown. And how old are you?
Justin Kowalski:Right now, I'm almost at 30. I'm 47. Am 47 right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is 47 year old Justin and 54 year old Matt. Okay. So this is probably 22 year old Justin and 29 year old Matt. So we had a lot more testosterone back then, a lot more ego, but I had this idea, you remember I wanted to take this fish out of the tank
Justin Kowalski:remember this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And let it and not die, but simulate death
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In front of our church. And you were like, I was gonna murder a thousand babies on the steps of the temple. And and we really, really went at it, but kind of if you remember, your reaction was what I was going for with our church, and I wanted them to see, you know, that when we step outside of God's will, and what I did is I took the fish out of the tank and I set him free. You're free. And this is what people do when they reject God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I wanna be free. Wanna go my own way. And I actually think that's what hell is. You are Hell is 100% freedom away from God, and so you're sucking and there's no oxygen to you because all life is in God. And so I put this fish, and it's it's interesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, how how many years ago is that? Twenty five, twenty seven, twenty eight years ago, I still can remember the audience. Yeah. And put the fish back in, he was okay. And he Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:Lived. He lived a long time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ten years at Sandals Church. Like, we we bought him a tank.
Justin Kowalski:Longer than some staff members.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Longer than some staff members. His name was Nemo. Nemo. I named him Nemo because he he was he looked like Nemo
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:From the movie at the time. But we we disagreed passionately about, you know, what it was supposed to look like, how it was supposed to look, and and here's the thing, the Lord blessed that
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and changed lives. I mean, I I just preached at a church in Orange County. It's called Oceans Church. Every time I go there, I run into you're 47? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I run into 40 year olds.
Justin Kowalski:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's what they'll say. I gave my life to Christ at Sandals Church twenty five years ago.
Justin Kowalski:Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sandals Church changed my life. Yeah. So we were we were raw.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Remember the fighting nuns? We had the fighting nuns. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So we did some things that, you know
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It went too far, but but we weren't trying to reach church people. No. We were reaching lost people who didn't know God, who were far away from God, and I run into people all the time, and they're like, that rawness Yeah. Saved me. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It reached me. Do you remember the sermon when I said I hope you get VD? Do you remember that?
Justin Kowalski:Was on September 30,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and I put a picture of an eyeball.
Justin Kowalski:Yes. Yes. Remember the eyeball.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Eyeball on the screen
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the guy had gonorrhea of the eye.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is early days
Justin Kowalski:of song. I remember that. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I I
Justin Kowalski:think there's something about I don't recommend it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But we had a
Justin Kowalski:lot of dudes sleeping around.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I was like, I hope and here's why. Because I want I want God to risk your life so he can save your soul because we have all these guys that are like, I can do whatever I want. And I remember it was a giant screen. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Big old eyeball and it was nasty.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I I but I think that's necessary. I think you're gonna when I think a lot of that stuff that we did, a, we have, you know, lack of budget gets you more creative sometimes. Right? You get creative, but I think there was there was a little bit of a fearlessness.
Justin Kowalski:I'm not saying we're not we just as you grow, you have to like, how how are we gonna effectively communicate? Right? But I think there was a fearlessness to what we were doing, how we're gonna reach people. Because it was it was it was like, this is life or death. Right?
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. And I remember with the fish thing, that was what it was. And you said this, you're like, you're more concerned with the life of a fish than the souls of the people in our church. And I I remember it stuck, I was
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:like Yeah. It was an ugly fight.
Justin Kowalski:It it yeah. It it was it wasn't but it didn't it wasn't like this, oh, man. He's so mad at me. It was just like, ugh. I was it was like a You didn't like the idea.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I didn't like the idea, but ended up ended up working and the fish lived and we're all good. Going back because I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:had ideas that maybe you should have spoken up for. Yeah. Yeah. So
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. Excuse me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I think the Holy Spirit uses creativity. I mean, we we worship God who is a creator. So how about this? Yeah. Creating for God versus creating with God.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a tough one.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I I think it goes back to like what, I guess, the question creating for God, is it like from a job perspective?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. Yeah. I mean Do you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just asking, do you see attention there?
Justin Kowalski:I think so.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because I guess one is participation and one is isolation. So I'm doing this for God Yeah. And the other is I'm doing this with him. Yeah. So how does that feel with you?
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I think depending on where you are with the Lord. Right? Is is God guiding like, is he is has he given me a gift, and am I gonna use that to, you know, glorify him? Or am I gonna go, hey.
Justin Kowalski:You know what? Like, I I've got a great voice, and I'm gonna sing a song. And, like, am I doing worship music? We were just talking before the show. We were kinda like, remember those old bands from back in the day?
Justin Kowalski:You know? A lot of Christian art's not good. I know. And then that's where I'm like, y'all can do better. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't think your band was that good.
Justin Kowalski:I I was I had a pretty
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It wasn't a screamer band. Some people like that. What do I you call
Justin Kowalski:mean, there was there was hardcore as No. But you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:were a screamer. What was it?
Scott Schutte:It was
Justin Kowalski:yeah. Like I said, I think it was more of a hardcore band.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like he's all sensitive.
Justin Kowalski:Like a punk rock band?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. I'm kidding. Yeah. It just wasn't my style. But but a lot of a lot of young people liked your band.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of was Isaac Isaac Naismith in your band?
Justin Kowalski:No. No. No. I I I kinda like went to a lot of different bands. Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:I did a I did a youth group band for a little bit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:That was kinda funny.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just teasing you.
Justin Kowalski:No. It's all good. Know. Yeah. We're
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:good. It wasn't my style. I was never into the Yeah. So that's kind of the music that you
Justin Kowalski:I feel like that's what Jesus would listen to though when he was coming back, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He did listen to that when he was in hell for three days. So and then he came back. So, no, I'm serious. Let's see. He he heard a lot of that.
Justin Kowalski:So Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. I'm teasing.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. No. I I I think I think it just, what what are you trying to do? Like and I guess I'll to, like, the Christian. Just be authentic in what you're creating.
Justin Kowalski:You know, a lot of times I'm
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would say, though, that that's the number one thing I love about you. You have never tried to be anybody but yourself.
Justin Kowalski:That's I think you gotta be honest. Like, the best the best art is honest art. Right? Mhmm. We would do, like, volunteer intakes.
Justin Kowalski:Right? People would bring their portfolios. That would be, hey. Let's look at your work. And people would do a lot of, like, lot lot of crosses, bro.
Justin Kowalski:Like, I'm old. And I would say, I don't know the last time, like, as a church when we were doing messaging and stuff, there wasn't a cross in anything. I think it was almost like, have to put a cross on it so people know. And I like, man, like, I get it. You're a believer.
Justin Kowalski:You're at our church. Like, let me see what you can do. Mhmm. Because it it it it's almost
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:what a cross looks like.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. And I'm not and I'm not knocking people that do that. Like, there's a lot of talented folks, but I'm like, you know, like, putting the cross in there is almost like it's like a cheap sell. Like, we get it or the or whatever. It's like, I don't know if that's art.
Justin Kowalski:I think that's that's Christian marketing. Yeah. So No. That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's a good word. How about this one? Discovering your calling versus defining it because a lot of artists think they're called to art. Yeah. And and and and just imagine, like like, think about the role you're in now at Sandals Church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. If you would have just said, I only do art. Yeah. Think of all the people at Palm that would not have been ministered to by you, who would not have been pastored, who would not have heard you preach, you know, like, you if you narrowly defined your calling, you would have missed that. And I and I I see a lot of old leaders and young leaders confuse these two things, calling and assignment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so so I have a call to God like you did, and you put your yes on the table. Yeah. And God has blessed your calling but moved your assignment.
Justin Kowalski:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How many years you've at Sandals? On staff.
Justin Kowalski:On staff. A little over twenty one years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So for twenty one years, I mean, some of our listeners aren't 21 years old. No. And if you would have just said my calling and assignment are the same thing, you would have missed Yeah. So much of what God's done.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what would you say? How did you discover your calling versus, you know, defining it so narrowly?
Justin Kowalski:I knew, like I mean, once you know, after you were sharing a little bit earlier, like, when my dad passed, my dad was in ministry. And and I felt like every other door was kinda closing. And so and when when the the the asp was on the table for me, I was like, man. And it was weird because I I applied at a different church because I was like, I just wanna serve the Lord, but, you know, I think I need to do it vocationally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What church? Tell me.
Justin Kowalski:I'll I'll tell you off
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:here. Okay.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. I'll you off here. Because they're a great church, but it was it just I was like, I don't I don't wanna attend there, and that's what they told me to. You'd have to attend here. I'm like, well, I like I'm at Sandals.
Justin Kowalski:That's where I'm That's that's where I that's where I serve.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But they don't pay.
Justin Kowalski:So anyhoo, I think letting people that I trust in speak into my life, that's so important. Mhmm. You gotta have people around you because I could've put my feet down and been like, no. I'm supposed to do creative ministry. Right?
Justin Kowalski:That's what I'm supposed to do. And I remember I had a incredible conversation with pastor Brian McCoy. And he was like, sometimes, like, you have to reinvent yourself. Not like I had to do this major, like, overhaul my life. And he kinda he affirmed a lot.
Justin Kowalski:He's like, you've been here long enough. You know how a lot of things run. You know how to adapt. He's like, nothing shakes you. Like, our church moves a lot, and you've always moved well.
Justin Kowalski:And I was like, you're right. Because I've never, like, planted my feet in the ground like, no. We do this. Like, I'm like, let's change things. Like, I'm down for that.
Justin Kowalski:Like Mhmm. I don't I don't wanna, like, keep doing the same thing. And that's been the beauty of sandals. Like, we change things a lot. It's like, alright.
Justin Kowalski:So this is where we're going. Let's go. Like, I'm down for that. And so when, you know, leadership was like, here's what we see for you. Here's what we've seen you.
Justin Kowalski:I remember talking to, Dan Zombardi on the phone one time, and he's like, bro, like, I think you're incredibly creative. I think you're even better with people. Yeah. And that resonated with me, and I was like,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:dang it.
Justin Kowalski:You know? Because there but there was the tension, and I'm still, like, a creative person. It doesn't go away. Right? But I do see that.
Justin Kowalski:And I I feel as much as if I work on a project and the validation from that, man, I feel even more, like, used by the Lord when I'm walking with people. And that matters, man. And, yeah, I'm glad I wasn't stubborn. I could've been real stubborn. Like, no, man.
Justin Kowalski:I'm an artist. I'm creative. Yeah. That's who I am. That doesn't define me.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. You know? And so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, I'm so grateful for that. Yeah. Why don't you I didn't I didn't I'd have not prepped him for this. Yeah. Give me give me your top three just God moments at Sandals Church, and try to go way back, you know, for people that I know I should have I should have warned you beforehand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But, you know, when were just some moments where, you know, people that didn't get to be there early on Yeah. Where you just saw God move. I mean, because, you know, I I didn't know Sandals was gonna be a movement when we started, but there were moments early on where I was, woah.
Justin Kowalski:Okay. First thing just as you say it, first thing that kinda popped in my head, we were at CBU, and I don't know
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:what So California bathroom. California.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. We were meeting in their gym for a while. Just close your eyes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:For a while by, like, ten years.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. For ten years, and it smelled like Barbie dolls on the floor. That's It did. Yeah. That we had that rubber We
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:rolled out rubber flooring. Smelled like Barbie doll manufacturing. It was awful.
Justin Kowalski:But I don't remember what the message was, but I remember we were donating shoes
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:Almost, and everyone walked out of the gym with no shoes. No shoes. Like, go they donated all their shoes, shoes, shoes. I don't know what it was. Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:But we filled up, like, we had a big roll off with shoes in it. And I just remember going, dude, our people, like, in that moment, they they responded to the message. They and they walked out into a hot summer parking lot. Yeah. You know, like, on the blacktop.
Justin Kowalski:Like Yeah. That to me, that was that was wild, man. We did that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I remember that one. Yeah. And as the pastor, I knew I was gonna call people to give up their shoes that they wore in a church.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I wanted to wear shoes I didn't like. Oh. Because I so I I'm the only one that knows what the Holy Spirit's gonna do, and I remember the Holy Spirit saying, you gotta wear your best. So then we had three services. So two in the morning, one at night.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You gotta wear your three favorite pair of shoes.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and I remember I was like, okay, Lord. And the spirit of God moved. Mhmm. We had thousands of shoes. People left church, went to the mall Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Bought shoes, and brought them back. Yeah. It was, and I don't remember what the message was about either, but
Justin Kowalski:I don't remember the shoes. I remember that moment. And I think that's that was that was incredible. That was cool. I loved when we did this wasn't too long ago.
Justin Kowalski:I think it was probably 2012 when we when we built the ladies' house. That was cool, man, because we all rallied. Like, everyone rallied. Like, there was guys that like, I've got a what do they call those, you know, those big tractor deals they came in? And it was just cool to see people were excited to bless somebody.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. You know? And it just an example of like, you know, when we rally how, you know, what's I gonna be
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:think that was, like, 2015.
Justin Kowalski:I think it was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what it was, it was a woman in our church. She was in an abusive relationship, went through a divorce, had no money. She had, like, what, four kids and a blind dad.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the house, you guys, is something that should have been torn down.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we we you know, that what's that show where they they redo it and they move that bus?
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. And we
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:just we just got in our minds, like, we're gonna we're gonna rebuild this house. And we dropped about $200 on this house, and we moved them into Scarlett Zarnecki's house.
Justin Kowalski:Okay. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She they lived with her for months.
Justin Kowalski:Wow. I didn't know that part. I thought I thought there was, like, a weekend with them, but No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was Oh, wow. Yeah. It took a while because we had to completely redo everything. But here's what's cool. Home Depot jumped on board.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I forget the painting company that jumped on board. Contractor workers jumped on board, and we rebuilt this whole house. The city even fast tracked the permit process because the house was not like, you guys, it had holes in the floor and holes in the ceiling. And when I say holes, I mean, like, they covered it with like
Justin Kowalski:Like cardboard. Like, I thought it was like there was like cardboard and like torn up like like tarp you'd put, like, you know, a tent on stuff. It was wild, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we moved this family out. We completely redid the house. We invited the press, and we called it our real family. Yeah. And so maybe they can put that in the show notes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You guys can find it. Yeah. But it was it was so emotional. Press Enterprise was there. I think Fox News, local CBS channels, LA Times.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was just really, really cool. And we just gave the house to these kids, and I think we brought her son back from college Yeah. To witness this. And I remember the blind dad crying. He couldn't even see it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But he was so moved by, you know, his daughter's tears and his grandchildren. And guys, you know, that's all possible because of the giving of our church. Yeah. And so that was cool. Alright.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:One more.
Justin Kowalski:Those were two good ones. Yeah. Were those were pretty You know, when we did we did this thing called One Night to Unite. Oh, yeah. It was at it was towards the end of you told me to go early.
Justin Kowalski:I'm, like, thinking all the early. So we just had all of our like, we met one time that night. And it was at the same time, like, our worship leader was leaving. He it all kinda coalesced. We're like our last time at CBU, I think it was, Carlos was leaving to go do something else, and it was like and you you got me with this quote.
Justin Kowalski:There's certain things I remember, and you were like, I thought we were gonna do this forever. And I was like, we are gonna do this forever. Yeah. Just now, you know, Carlos, he's getting called off and Yeah. God bless Carlos.
Justin Kowalski:You know? Right? He was there. Those you guys who don't
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know Carlos Whitaker, super famous
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Guy, and he was our worship leader.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we literally it's we're like we're like trying to rally together because we got kicked out of the gym. I mean, people a lot lot of people don't realize that, but we were asked to leave Cal Baptist. Yeah. And we had to raise $4,000,000. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're a bunch of college kids in order to put the down payment on the house that the building that that we're recording in right now. Yeah. And our superstar worship leader, it was his last night.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He left. Like so he's like, the rock star worship leader was driving off, and and and I remember a year like, I am here, and we are here.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And our church and and I I love Carlos. He was following God's path, but I I was sad to see
Justin Kowalski:him go. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Man, we got $4,300,000.
Justin Kowalski:Like,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:we got it.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My hair fell out. Yeah. But we got it.
Justin Kowalski:It was wild,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:It was. Just the the how God orchestrated all of that, when you look back it's always hard in the moment. You're like, what's going on? But when you like, even today, if we look back today, like, even finding this spot, I remember we drove. You're like, this is too far, and, like, there's two different people.
Justin Kowalski:I don't know if you you probably remember because I told you that told you about this spot, not connected. Yeah. And then, now there's freaking houses over here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. 3,000 of them. Donkeys. It's like God knows what he's doing.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Listen. I love you, man. It has been such a joy to do ministry with you. Yeah. And I look forward for another twenty years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And, man, if you if you wanna know the truth about Matt Brown, you can ask Justin Kowalski because he knows the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Justin Kowalski:You could
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:write the movie. Make a lot of money on the book. Yeah. But you have loved me, served me, been there with me, grown up with me. Know, I got to do your dad's funeral, got to do your wedding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm trying to think. I did one of your sister's wedding.
Justin Kowalski:You were at my you did my older sister's wedding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Yeah.
Justin Kowalski:You came to my wedding. Yeah. I danced I at my made a prob I got married the day before Easter. Not a good move.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's okay.
Justin Kowalski:I forgot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I danced at your wedding.
Justin Kowalski:You did dance at my wedding. It was awesome.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So So sorry. I can't remember why I married, didn't marry,
Justin Kowalski:but Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've been a part of your life, watched your boys get born. I saw the video that you saw of your wife when she was wiggling, and and he went, hoo hoo. And I was like, hey. I was like, that's something. That's that's something.
Justin Kowalski:Define wiggling. It wasn't This was this was we had a thing called MySpace, and I had a friend and she
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:was like Dancing.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah. She was dancing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it wasn't so I said wiggling because it wasn't like sexual.
Justin Kowalski:Was she was dancing. Yeah. She was dancing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she's being her wonderful, amazing self. And your wife is
Justin Kowalski:She's great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Literally the greatest woman alive. She's just so incredible, and you have two amazing talented sons. Mhmm. And anyways, love your mom. Love your sisters.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Love your family. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful to do ministry with you. And here's what I would say. Some of you are like, oh, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want that. Then then be a part.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, be a part. Justin has jumped in. He served in every role possible. He worked in kids ministry, you said?
Justin Kowalski:For yeah. For I started off the the week after my dad passed away. I was like, I gotta get involved. And I I jumped in the kids. Was like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then you did youth?
Justin Kowalski:Then I did youth. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I moved to production and art. Yeah. And then or not art, but Yeah. Was design Yeah. Whatever
Justin Kowalski:it It's the name changed a lot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Know. Keep changing the names. And then you jumped into, I what, associate level? I don't
Justin Kowalski:know what. It was, yeah, campus operations.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Campus operations, you know, and now you're preaching.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like and this has been your life's work. Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing. And so here's what I would say to all of our listeners.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When I met Justin, he was alone and afraid and very angry. Yeah. He was disconnected from God and losing his dad. I mean, that was tough. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, and I and I I still remember that that meeting. And what I would say is you only are as alone as you choose to be. Yeah. And and one of the things that changed your life is when God spoke to you, and you had to jump all in. Didn't you come to church drunk or something?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is
Justin Kowalski:that you? I I showed up to serving kids, actually. I talked to Janie about this who was Yeah. In charge of kids, and I remember waking up,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know. But it was people out there that, you know, you're addicted to porn, you're a drug addict, and you're like, god can never use me. I'm telling you
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He he changed Justin's life. Yes. Proof. And and and here's the thing you need to know. He's a great husband.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Great father. Great pastor. But that happens over twenty years.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would say is get involved, get plugged in, and and here's here's what the enemy's gonna do. Well, I turned a card in and no one called me or no one likes me or they don't want me to serve. The enemy is gonna put everything in your way. He showed up buzzed. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's the thing is, if you keep pressing in
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And you stay the course and you follow Jesus like he's called you to do, man, he is gonna change your life. So thank you so much for listening to debrief, Justin. Thank you for twenty one years. Let's do twenty one more. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know if I'll be the pastor here when you retire, but, hopefully, the next guy likes you. Yeah. You you had a good run so far. Yeah. So listen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sit in your questions to the debrief. The show is only as good as your questions. And whenever I'm preaching, man, if I say something, you're like, I don't I don't agree with that or I don't like that. Man, send in your question. And here's what you guys love to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You love to DM me on Instagram, but then what that means is I have to find it.
Justin Kowalski:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have to read it, and I have to send it to Celeste here at the debrief, or you could just do that and save us all a bunch of time and send in those questions because, you you know, even if you're like, man, was a lame sermon. Send it in. I'll put you on. Our vision is to be real. It's not about me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not about Sandals. It's about Jesus, and we want your questions, and we're all better Mhmm. Because of your questions. So thank you so much for listening today. Thank you for Justin Kowalski.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Check out Sandals Church Palm Avenue Palms Up.
Justin Kowalski:Palms
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Up. Because he is one of the pastors at that campus, and that campus is a miracle for Sandals Church. Yeah. So thank you, guys. God bless.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We love you.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoy this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:listener.