Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Circling The Drain is a show about the current state of the music and radio businesses as well as culture in general!
Hosted by John E. Bozeman and Jay Harper along with Jim McCarthy as Co-Host/Executive Producer.
John has had a storied career in music and talk radio, most notably as the Executive Producer for the late and legendary Phil Valentine.
Jay also has has a long career in radio as Announcer, Play-by-Play, Voice and On-Camera Actor. He was also an Artist Rep for MCA records.
Jim McCarthy ALSO has had a tremendous career in radio since 1996 and has since brought his consulting/producing skillset to the podcast world.
Circling the Drain is produced by ItsYourShow.co
Unknown: It wasn't one of these,
you know, bitch fest genuinely
discussed the future. And I had
a couple of different, different
things. One of them was, in
order to be successful with
radio, you have to, you have to
give your employees, you have to
give your on air team,
especially four things. Have to
give them money, opportunity
training and respect.
Wow, if you, if
you don't have money, you have
to operate, you have to you have
to give them, you have to
provide opportunity training and
respect. If you don't have money
or opportunity, then you have to
provide training or respect.
These are all successful
scenarios, and sometimes, if you
don't have money, opportunity
training, respect will carry the
day. But if you don't have
money, opportunity, training or
respect, it's because you're
working for Clear Channel or
cumulus. I love it. Welcome to a
podcast about music and
entertainment before it all goes
down the disposal This is
circling the drain.
Hey, welcome back to circling
the drain. If I can talk, it's
Johnny Bozeman right here.
Johnny B we are missing one
fellow. We Harper and we
missing, but
he will be back. He is actually,
I believe he's doing baseball
game announcing, announce me,
announcing,
both of us. It's been a long day
tonight. Yes, it
is, but we miss him, but he will
be back. For those that may be
thinking, What did Jay leave?
Y'all, no, he has not. He's
still with us, but we do have
brother, Jim McCarthy, Jim, how
are you doing?
I'm able to test it up and take
nourishment.
That's a good thing. That's
right, I'm above ground, which
is always a good thing. Oh yeah.
In fact, I start every day with
a thank you. You really have to
Yeah.
You do Yeah, especially with
the, you know, the last two
years of your life and all the
things.
Well, I mean, the last four
years really, I mean, yeah,
yeah, it's been that's been the
really, that's been the really
weird thing is that I've lost a
lot of people, you know, like
Phil fact, Phil Valentine and
nothing against my other friends
but Phil Valentine and a guy
named Dave White, who I've
talked about on the show. I lost
both of them, and they were
probably the the two guys that I
would count as really great
friends, the kind of guys that
you talked to a lot, and that
were very pivotal in my life,
that that really changed my
life. Yeah, losing those two
guys, in fact, losing Dave was a
was a big shot to the gut as
much as losing Phil So, yeah,
it's been kind of a and then
losing radio, yeah, you know,
getting let go from radio after
almost 50 years.
Oh, radio is kind of like an ex
wife. I guess I would, I would
have to imagine what an ex wife
would be, yeah. Well, an abusive
ex wife, yeah,
ex wife that you're happy to get
away from. But no, I mean, I
enjoyed radio. I enjoyed working
in it. I don't my big problem
with radio was always with
management. I never got along
with management. It's not that I
it's not that I argued with them
or tried to make their life
miserable. It's more like I
don't. I just don't think they
really understood my role or
what I was bringing to the table
for them. Yeah, that's what I
gathered from it, is that they
didn't, and I didn't get the
impression that they really
listened to what
we were doing. And to be honest
with you, I've kind of it's an
unfair thing for me to say that
it's like an ex wife who's
abusive. It was very good to me.
Yeah, it enabled us to, you
know, relatively have a single
income type of situation with
Courtney staying at home, and
so, I mean, I'm grateful for
that. The last company I worked
for was fantastic. I was, I just
got it out of my system, yeah,
when I was ready to leave, it's
not fun when you're not ready to
leave, and they make it happen
for you, yeah?
So Well, that was what's rough
about the last one, was that I
was really starting to enjoy,
you know, working with the
people I was working with, with
Dan Mantis and Joan Jones, and
we had Joan had just come on,
and we were starting to get a
real good, I hate the word
synergy, but that's all. I think
camaraderie, yeah, just, we just
really gelled together, and I
really didn't know if it was
going to be that way, because we
had lost Ken Weaver and I had. A
real good Ken. Dan and I were
real tight, and we had a good
rapport, and I think it showed,
because the ratings were really
good and we never got the pat on
the back. You know, that's the
way to go, guys, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's really a shame when
you you pour your heart and soul
into something, and there's no
attaboys, yeah.
You know, that's one thing you
know, that I always tried to do
in the studio was keep everybody
up, yeah, you know, like Dan,
sometimes Dan's very rough on
himself, like he'd get done with
a bit, and he'd go, I shake
that. And I said, No, Dan, you
didn't. You didn't, you know,
don't. Okay, you mixed up one
word, big deal, you know, just
go on. It sounded great. You
know, that's one thing I did was
try to keep everybody up. Plus,
because of management, not
really patting our backs, I
would try to pat the backs of
people I worked with, like, tell
them something I heard that was
really good. In fact, I remember
telling Pamela Furr one time,
and she was guest hosting, she
made a really great point one
time on the air, and I was
coming home listening to her,
and she was making this great
point. And it had me in the car
after I turned, you know, after
I gotten into the driveway, and
I was sitting in the car, and
she was making this great point,
and I even told her, I said, you
know, that's, that's the sign of
a good talk show host that can
keep you in the car, that, you
know, that I didn't just get out
right away. And if you can keep
me their power to you, that's
so true. Yeah, yeah, that's the
thing is that, you know, and
again, the people who are,
they're sowing what they're
they're going to reap what they
sow. Right, right? You know, at
that, at that point in that
management scenario that you
were in, they were sowing seeds
of just unhealthy culture. Yeah,
you know, Discord, if you will.
And I think eventually it's
going to come those things kind
of you get to reap it. And,
yeah, you are a friend of mine,
John David Wells, who I got to
know in Vegas. Great guy. Sounds
like Mike Rowe. You always had a
great voice, and I said to he
said something to me, and I'm
trying to remember it, if you're
not going to, you know, if
you're not going to pay us,
then, like, you know, at least
respect us. If you're not going
to respect us, then at least.
And there's a third part of it,
I should probably qualify, but
it was a whole train of thought.
I should probably text him right
now and see if it will get back
to me. But it was really good,
because it really summed up
radio, you know, if you're not
going to, you know, at least
respect what we're going to do,
then pay us, or, you know, do
something else that followed
that kind of thing. So
acknowledge it, or give us some
sort of appreciation well.
And the thing is, if you are the
leader, you should, you should
really give a damn, because if
you don't, it's going to filter
down to everyone, yeah, and
you're and you're going to have
subpar product. Now luckily, you
know, with the radio station,
even though we weren't getting
atta boys, we kept each other
pumped up, and I think still put
out good product. And in fact,
with Phil Valentine, that's what
we did a lot of times, is when
things would be really negative
around us. Phil always said, you
know, let's put the horse
blinders on, yeah, and control
what you can control, yeah. And
it was great that that was a
great, great lesson. And I think
that's why I missed the man so
much, was that he was always
good at you know, if it was a
crappy day, Phil could make that
day into the greatest just
because he was always up, always
always rocking, always put me in
a good mood. Well, how have
you been since all that went
down, you know, you come in and
all they unceremoniously, you
know, over a zoom call. It's
like pouring salt in the wound
of, you know, just, oh, I didn't
know that you were so popular,
yeah, did a Google search and
you were, well, I didn't realize
that you're actually
here. Why Why would you come on?
I've had some really weird
things said to me by management,
not just at the last place, but
even even at the place prior
when they were getting rid of
me, at W, L, A, C, the general
manager called me in and said,
Man, I was listening to you this
morning. Man, you are funny. You
had me laughing. And I said,
Well, gee thanks. And he said, I
hate we're getting rid of you.
And I said, Well, then don't so
I guess you weren't paying it.
And Phil ran into that a lot
with when we were working
together, they would always it
had nothing to do with my
talent. It had more to do with.
A number crunching, of course,
and they were always wanting to
get rid of me. And he said, if
you get rid of him, I'm walking.
He said, you're taking the guts
out of the show. Yeah, and, and
I appreciate him doing that, but
he shouldn't have had to do
that. All you had to do is, you
know, listen, listen to it. But
that was the whole problem. They
don't, they don't listen to
their
own product. Oh, there's an
element of hubris that goes on
in any situation. You know,
sure, management, I mean, good
managers will shield you from
the stuff that they're getting
faced with, right? You know, I
talked about this gentleman
before, and another episode,
Steve brink, you know, he would,
he would his job. He always said
is, I am the umbrella to keep
you from the crap that is
rolling down the hill. Yeah,
and, you know, you just, you
guys just need to know that I'm
proud of you. You're doing your
job. I'll let you know if you're
not. And you don't need to hear
or see or anything. You don't
need to know what's affecting
me, right? Those are that's on
my shoulders. And he was a great
culture creator in
that sense, you know, well,
there's a there have been a lot
of people I've worked with like
that. Leslie Pardue was great at
that. He, you know, he shielded
us from a lot of BS, and even,
you know, people talk about the
Dickey brothers. But Michael
Dickey, you've had a good
experience. I did have a good
experience with Michael dickey.
He was, he was like that, and
he, he brought us up a lot of
times, yeah, and yeah, I enjoyed
working, working for him. Yeah,
they didn't get a
good, like, like, a stellar
reputation. I don't know if it
was from the trades or just, you
know, the scuttlebutt going
around town, or what people
their interactions, but, you
know, there was three brothers
or two.
I think there was three. So, I
mean,
maybe some of them not Michael.
Yeah, Michael was, I was real
sad because Michael, they took
Michael out of there and had him
do a magazine in Atlanta. And to
be quite honest, I really didn't
care for any of the general
managers. What was really weird
was the general manager that
fired me, the one that said she
Googled me. I really didn't like
her. I mean, I thought she did
some good things with the
station. Always talked her up.
And I don't know, I don't think
she felt the same about me.
Well, that's the thing is, like,
you know, are you saying these
things to cajole me? And you
know, we're kind of developing a
little bit of a hey, I'll Josh
you. You Josh kind of
camaraderie thing. But there's
an element of like, well, I get
that, but we need to know each
other a little bit first, and
you've never really made the
effort, so understand what
you're saying is coming off as
kind of insulting. Yes, we don't
know each other in that you
don't know me well enough to be
talking to me like this, yeah,
and I've actually said that to
people before, yeah, where they
think that, you know, I'm like,
Okay, are you being serious?
Because I don't serious? Because
I don't know you, right? You
know what I mean, right? I
guess, with age and way I kind
of handle things now, I always
tell my wife, who is working for
Publix now, yeah, and she's
loving it there, and she's
having a good time. I'm like,
you know, I always find it
interesting if how I would be
having to work for somebody else
again. How I'd conduct myself?
Yeah, I would be strategically
more opinionated, you know, but
not, you know, not opinionated,
just for the sake of being
opinionated, right? Just to, you
know, argue or
not, yeah, just, you know, if
someone hits you with a sideways
comment like that, I would say,
Look,
why, you know, why are we doing
this? Yeah,
why are we doing this? I've done
that in the, I mean, the car
business taught me that was, was
standing, not standing up, but
at least establishing the
boundaries and standing up for
yourself when managers would try
and posture to you, right? And
it was an unreasonable posture,
like I don't I'm not deserving
of this right now, right? And
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say
something, and because I'm
saying something, I'm signaling
to you that it's not okay to do
this to me. And if you continue
to treat me like this, we're
gonna have
problems well. And one thing I
was looking at, and my wife
really helped me look at this
way. But you know, both shows I
worked on were great in the
ratings. Yeah, so I'm producing
for you. What's the problem?
Yeah, the KPIs you're wanting me
to be in charge of are are
definitely performing. It's not
my problem. If you can't
translate that into
revenue, right? I'm entertaining
people. And, you know, yeah,
because I wasn't aware that the
audience really dug me that much
until I met my wife, because she
was shocked when she met me,
because I was thinking about
leaving Phil's show, and she
said, No, you shouldn't, because
you guys have a great
relationship. He loves you. You
love him, and the audience loves
you both. I said, Well, I think
they love him, but I said, you
know it's not. Going anywhere
for me. And that's when she took
me down to shelville, to a
grocery store down there. And I
didn't understand why we were
going there, but she was just
aware that that's where our
audience was, the big core of
the audience. And she was right.
And that's when I learned, oh,
wow, they do like us, yeah. But
what? It wasn't an ego thing. It
was more of a self affirming Oh,
so what I'm doing is working,
what I'm, I'm, I'm actually
contributing to the show,
according to these people,
was there a Porsche, a part of
your life where something like
this would have happened and you
would have freaked out more, you
would have been
a little more panicky. Oh, as
far as
what, there's like, a life shift
like that, you know? I mean, at
our age, having it happen,
it's as far as getting let
go and, you know, but that's to
be expected in radio, yeah, it
is.
But this time was different. I
because in the past, when it's
happened, I've bounced back a
lot faster this time. I don't
know what. I don't know if it
was because Phil had died and
I'd not really got to grieve
properly. I don't know why
happened, but for a few months
there I was lost. I would just
stay in my music room and just
hang out there. And my wife got
very concerned because she she
said, you know, it seemed to me,
you were in a real deep
depression. I thought, well, it
probably was to some extent.
And I think the thing is, with
that you don't really know. No,
you don't, you know.
But I think, I think it was, and
I've really not got totally out
of it. I still have some moments
of doubt and really don't know
what I'm going to do with my
life at this point. That's why
this podcast has been really
good for me, because it does
give me purpose. I do enjoy
doing it with you guys, and I'm
glad it's happened. I was a
little concerned, because we
were trying to do it with
Campbell, and it just wouldn't
work out. And when it didn't
work out with Campbell, I'd
given up on it. I thought, well,
yeah, I'll just find something
else to do, and maybe I'll just
go to go to work in the private
sector. So just go work at
Publix with your wife. Yeah,
work there, but meeting Jay,
because Jay was the one that
invited me out to lunch, and it
was having lunch with him, and
in the middle of it, I was just
thinking, This guy's really,
really entertaining, yeah, and
he's got some great stories. And
I'm thinking, I think this is my
guy right here, and I think it
was him, actually, that asked
about the podcast, and I said,
Well, interesting. You say that,
why don't we get together and do
one? And that's where it all
started. And thanks to you too,
getting it into my brain that
it's a lot of fun. It is a lot
of fun.
It's a lot of work. And it's not
like radio, where you're just,
you know, where people can just
easily turn it on, and there you
are. And you know, you, you do
have competition, but not like
podcasts. Podcasts, there are so
many to choose from. I mean,
you're talking millions, yeah,
is where the radio station what?
There's a couple of others in
town that you, you know, you,
you,
but I mean, all the listenership
is getting fractured.
They are so they are well, and
people aren't. We talked about
it on here before people,
especially with music radio,
they're not listening to music
radio like they used to, right?
It's a lot different. Now.
People can program their phones.
Their phone is a radio now,
and we've talked about that on
the podcast, yeah, looking back
on the podcast so far, I mean,
we're about, we're pushing 30
episodes in. Yeah, we are any
highlights that come to mind,
some favorites for you that you
enjoy?
Oh, there are too many. I love
Gary Gentry because I loved him
anyway. He's a great guy. I
loved the ones where we talked
about artists that didn't make
it, that should have also
enjoyed our dad. A lot of people
have talked about the dad
episode. They like that. Deborah
Allen was another one because I
loved her, and we got to have
her husband on sometime.
Raymond, yeah, because he's he's
full of great stories. Yeah,
there have been a ton of them
that I've Wade Hayes, gosh. I
mean, we've had so many great,
great guests,
and we've done a lot. Yeah,
we have, we have well and Sandy
Gennaro, I loved him, yeah, what
a great guy he is, plus to
interview a rocker that you got
to see in concert, I was telling
my wife that this morning, I'm
pinching myself like a kid
because I remember seeing him
and being blown away by his
drumming, which
is funny, because you know, of
all the different people you've
come across and talked to and
interviewed over the years, I
love. Love that aspect of you
that you're still in awe of
certain people. You know, that's
a good thing to hold on to. I
don't, I'm not sure I really
have it anymore, really, because
I've, you know, in radio, you
just kind of, you realize these
people just put their pants on
one leg. Well, yeah,
I look at them that way. I
don't. I don't look at them like
they're like I used to. You
know, a lot of a lot of us. And
when we were younger, you know,
we were, we were kneeling at
the, you know, the altar of
their martial lamp. Yeah, but
I'm not that way anymore. I I
look at them as people. They're
not perfect. Yeah, that they may
be famous, or they may be more
famous, but it doesn't make them
greater person than you or me,
and
it's funny, because
you think about the
accessibility that we have now
with social media, Instagram,
you can DM your favorite artist
or whoever influenced you, and
maybe they'll get back to you.
It's a lot more instantaneous,
and it's almost expected now
that if you don't, it's kind of
like, well, I'm going to form my
opinion based on the fact that
you didn't get back to me on my
DM, whereas where we grew up,
we'd have to send an actual
letter or go to where they were
in hopes to maybe see them go
from the arena, the venue, into
whatever mode of transportation.
If you could even see that
happening, right? You know, it's
a lot different. And I think the
expectations are different now,
and I think we have a lot more
human take on them, especially
now that they're using the same
platforms to show what their
life is like.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Yeah, exactly. And
it's the sheen of the stardom,
or them being up on a pillar, if
you will, or pedestal, pedestal,
pedestal, pillar. It's not
really there anymore, you know,
I'm glad of that, actually,
yeah, me too,
you know, because I think I've
seen too many people over the
years. And I'm not, I'm not
putting I'm not trying to put
anybody down, but a lot of
artists, you know, they're human
beings, and some of them are
quite they're not to be looked
up to, not saying all of them
are that way, but a lot of them
you're putting on a pedestal
that shouldn't be there,
because, you know, in their
private life. They may not be
the in fact, you've always heard
the the old saying, you know,
you don't want to meet your
heroes, yeah, and there's a lot
of truth to that. They're like
even meeting radio people. I've
met a number of radio people
that I loved listening to them
when I met them, I'm sorry I
did, because they were there was
one talk show host in particular
that remember that Phil
Valentine introduced me to that
we always do this didn't even,
didn't even look up, didn't even
look up to what
it was. Was it? Were they a
syndicated person?
Syndicated? Yes.
Were they out of New York?
You're getting warm.
Maybe hot. Did I maybe have them
on my radio station?
Yeah, you're a great American.
Oh, really, yeah, it's so funny
because, I mean, I know the
person you're talking about, my
wife, having such an intuition
about people, yeah, never met
him, and always just, you know,
she didn't vibe with him when
she saw him on, like, really, on
TV, and she's like, this is
something about him. I go, I
said, I've met him several
times. He's saying, it seems
like a cool guy, you know, well,
some Well, I mean, Phil liked
him. Yeah, Phil loved him. But I
walked away. I just didn't get a
good vibe. And plus, the way he
treated me, I thought, well, you
know, he, mean, treated me like
an underling that he didn't need
to deal with.
You're one of Phil's support
staff kind of, yeah, that's way.
And so I just, I actually liked
his partner better, the one that
was which I didn't, I didn't
agree with his partner on
politics, but he was a nice guy.
I think
anybody listening to this could
probably discern,
oh yeah, they know who we're
talking about.
I've, actually, I've had
interactions with the same guy,
yeah, his counterpart, and he
was a huge champion of radio,
huge, well,
he's just seemed like a cool
guy. He was a very nice, very
personable, yeah? And I like
people like that. There was a DJ
in in Nashville that I really
liked, and he was on mid days on
a country station here, and we
were getting ready to move in
the same building. And the
production guy was a friend of
mine, and he I was telling, oh
man, I dig that cat. And he
goes, I'll come introduce you.
And we went in, the dude was
rude as could be. Never said
hello to me, never. All he did
was bitch to the production guy
about something, but when he
introduced me, he didn't bring
even acknowledged, right? And it
just, you know, I quit
listening. I thought it. He
killed it
for me. And it's like, the
people don't realize when you do
that, you know, I get having a
bad day or whatever, sure, like
that you're still, you know, get
over yourself. Yeah, and like
what Sandy said in a couple of
episodes ago, just, you know,
you never know what these little
moments may yield, just, just
acknowledge, be considerate, and
hey, someone wants to meet you.
That's think about the day when
that doesn't happen. Yes, you
know, yeah. And it's like, why?
What's the point?
You know, well, I'm always,
I guess I just, I, I'm always
stunned that somebody is that
excited to meet me, because I'm
just, when I look at myself, I'm
just John, you know, but to
somebody else, they listen to us
forever, and it just thrills
them to you know? And it, it
makes my day, actually, because
I think, wow, I touched
somebody's life. How cool was
that?
Very cool. And it's a matter of
what a great responsibility you
have.
Yeah, you know very much. So,
so, yeah, look at it. So yeah, I
met, yeah, anytime I've met some
people that are famous, and
that's why we were saying, I'm
glad to see that pedestal kind
of disappear.
I had like in the group of radio
stations in Vegas when we moved
out there, the program director
for extreme radio was featured
in R and R magazine. Yeah, at
least I want to say that was
there was two big ones at the
time, and I used to read them
cover to cover. I was so
passionate about radio, and he
had such a cool cover because
they took him out into the
desert and he was wearing a
hockey jersey with the logo on
it, and they, you know, took the
shot and everything and put it
on the cover of the magazine.
His name was Dave Wellington. Is
Dave Wellington, and I never
thought Vegas would be an
option. Here I was still at the
i 95 in Connecticut, starting to
put my toe in the water to
explore opportunities. And I
remember seeing that go that
would be so cool to work in the
desert. You know what? I mean,
yeah. And then, you know, two,
two years later, it became a
reality. And I'm working with
the guy who I saw, not with him,
but, you know, in the same
building. And I'd walk by his
office and, like, it was like,
starstruck I was going there he
is, you know, wow. And he
became, he became a friend, you
know. And it was really kind of
cool to be in a building that
people were getting a lot of
accolades from the industry. We
were working with cat Thomas,
who was a premier program
director for kl, you see, and
went on to become, like, a big
regional programming, mind and
influential in the business for
music radio stations. And he
was, I was funny because he his
wife gave me. He was a big Ohio
State guy. Yeah, Ohio State guy.
So one of the Halloween parties,
we had a big thing at one of the
local restaurants, like a get
together and a celebration of
sorts. It was a really cool
event for us and at the radio
stations, and we were having a
Halloween costume contest. So I
told his wife, I said, Hey,
could you get me one of his
jerseys and I'm gonna get a wig?
She goes. Why? I said, because
I'm gonna dress up as him. And
she thought that was the most
unbelievable. She thought that
was the funniest thing. And I
think I'm pretty sure I won the
actual contest because I showed
up looking like I'm awards,
like, used to wear a visor.
Yeah, I had the like, black hair
wig and Ohio State jersey. And
he thought, he thought it was
hilarious. We took a picture
with each other and everything.
So a lot of unassuming people in
that building, some of the radio
stations, yeah, they were, you
know, too busy being fabulous.
Oh yeah, there's something like
that. It was,
you know, for most part, yeah,
you didn't run into too many
people, even when I got here to
Nashville, so unassuming. Oh
yeah, everybody here was so
cool.
Well, and I, I gotta relate a
story to you. I was thinking
about the other day. We recently
lost Reverend Jesse Jackson, and
not saying I agreed with him
much of anything, but we were at
the 2004
Democrat convention in Boston,
and we were, I think radio row
was actually in the airport, the
Boston Airport, and
the airport, airport, or either
the train,
it was in the bathroom. It was
weird. It
was a weird place. But
the day Jesse was there. I was
just watching him. Just amazed.
I was amazed how much the media,
I don't know if they were
following him or if he was drawn
to the cameras one of the two,
but the guy was just made for
media. I mean, he was I was
amazed. I was just. Was kind of
digging, watching how he how he
worked. Plus it was interesting
because we had a lady that
produced the STEVE GILL show,
which she is now a big media
person now herself. Is Scotty,
similar, Hughes, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Well, I noticed Jesse was
following her around a lot too,
because she was, you know, quite
attractive, good looking blonde,
yeah, good looking blonde, and
he was following her a lot. But
what was really funny is when he
came up to because Scotty sent
him up to Phil's show, we're
sitting there. And as he comes
up, he comes up to me, and he
goes, What's your name? And I
said, I'm Johnny B. And he goes,
Johnny B, you the man? And he
fist bumped me. And I started
laughing, because I thought
that's the funniest thing I've
ever heard. But he smiled, and I
thought, you know this guy, I
may disagree with him, but
there's something
cool about him, and it's, isn't
that funny? You know, here you
are recounting a story that
happened 22 years ago. Yes, you
know, in light of the guy's
demise, very polarizing figure
in America.
Oh, very much so.
And, you know, it's really cool
like this. These are the kind of
conversations that I wish we
could start having. I think
we're starting to have them more
and more to kind of bridge the
divide, so to speak, which
eventually has to happen.
It gotta happen,
yeah, you know. And it's like,
you know, despite our the way we
think and our differences and
backgrounds, we could still find
some common ground.
Oh, yeah. Well, like when he
died, that's the first thing I
thought of, was that I didn't
think about all the things I
disagreed with him on I thought
about that interaction. Yeah,
that's what I thought, Man,
that's something that stuck with
me. I tell you a great
interview, I think for everyone
to watch, and a lot of you will
sit and go, I'm not gonna watch
that because I don't agree with
him, or I don't agree with him,
but it's between Charlie Kirk
and Bill Maher. My that had to
be the best debate I have ever
watched in my life, because
these two guys treated each
other with respect. You could
tell they liked one another.
They didn't agree, but they they
agreed to disagree, which is
key? Yeah, it is. Well, in fact,
I got a good lesson in that when
at the 2004 Democrat convention,
Phil had Richard Dreyfus came
on, and Phil and Richard had a
great conversation. Didn't agree
on anything, but it was
respectful. It would they, they
they debated. They didn't. One
wasn't yelling at the other like
Rob Reiner would do rest his
soul. But yeah, it, it's makes
me long for those days when
people would debate instead of
call each other names.
I just think we're gonna get
past this phase. We will, yeah,
it has to happen. It always
comes in cycles like that. And a
lot of people are just put, you
know, putting on a show for the
cameras too. Oh yeah, it's WWE
Well, I mean, let's just be
honest, that's what Donald
Trump's doing. He's putting on
his show. Yeah, you know how to
do fake news. Fake news well.
Plus he can also duck out of
answering a question that way
too. Oh, you're fake news.
Yeah, okay. I honestly think,
and I'll say it right here, that
everything that we've been
seeing him do, even it's
starting to a lot of people who
are, we're champions of him, are
going wait what you know, and
it's like, you know, you know,
there's a part of me that wants
to say the guy's too smart, and
I actually believe this. He's
too smart to just be that
flagrantly ignorant, right? He's
doing there's a plan to this.
And I think my philosophy, or my
hypothesis, is that he's look,
the country is divided. You need
a common enemy. If it's me, then
fine, yeah, I'll be the common
enemy. It's not like I'm running
for president again. Once I'm
done with these four years, I'm
done, I'm gonna go enjoy the
rest of my life. What's left of
it. And you know, if you all
hate me and that that's what
brings you together, fine, yeah,
I'll be that scapegoat. That's
my I could see. I hope you're
right. I think
it possibly is. I hope you're
right, because sometimes, and I
voted for the
guy, yeah, as did I, and
I don't hate him, of course, I
don't hate any I mean, I didn't
care for Obama as a president,
but meet a guy I would too. I
mean, I didn't I didn't hate
him. I didn't hate Clinton, you
know, but
for the days of Clinton,
well, we did have a balanced
budget. We had a balanced
budget, and you know what it
was? It. They were looking back
on it. It was a bad time
of life. No, it really wasn't.
It wasn't bad
at all. But at the time, we
thought it was like the world
was ending. Oh yeah, this is
horrible.
This is horrible. And then we
went through Obama years, and
then the Biden
years was real bad. But, you
know, okay, the equal
opportunity offender, even the
Bush years were kind of like,
wait, what? Oh, George W, he was
hilarious. Oh, and he we,
there was a few times I just
went, Man, this guy, Lord have
mercy, yeah.
What I love about, you know, the
circling the drain concept is
the fact that, here we are
talking about politics, and this
is the last thing you want.
Yeah, it was like, We that's one
thing I did say we were going
out. I don't want to talk
politics. And yet, here we are.
We're kind of talking about,
we're reminiscing. Well, we
are reminiscing. We're
reminiscing about a lot of
things. But, yeah, I hope I
don't come across on here that
I'm down on radio. I'm not. I
love radio. I loved my time in
it, because it was my whole
life. I mean, I I did other
things too, like music, you
know, I played music on the
road, and that was fun. But
radio has been a huge part of my
life, and I enjoyed, I enjoyed
it, even through the the
horrible times which there were
some, I mean, you know, there
was some bad radio management
too. But you know, even though
management would be bad, I
enjoyed the camaraderie of the
people I worked with.
Are a lot of people keeping in
touch with you, from where you,
who you worked with, and such
like in the recent station.
No, there's two that Ken Weaver
stays in touch more than
anybody, and every now and then
I hear from Matt Murphy, which
is nice, but I miss everybody
there. I did go to I was going
to church with Joan Jones and
Chris hand, but I quit doing
that, because all it did was
make me long for it made me sad.
I have more people, and I spent,
you know, 17 years of my adult
professional life in radio. I
maybe talk to three.
That's what's sad about radio,
is that you make such great
friends.
But once you move away or you go
to another
gig, it's out of sight, out of
mind.
And that what, what was
different about Dave White,
because even though we quit
working together, we stayed
tight, we stayed and we called
each other all the time. And
that's that's why I miss the guy
so much because out of everybody
I worked with in radio, Dave was
a true friend. He he was there
even at my worst times. You
know, I mean, his guy could
count on that was and I think
Phil would have been the same
way, I'm sure, because we were,
to be quite honest, I think Phil
was getting tired. I think once
they took away the syndication,
I think he kind of hit a point
where he's going, I want to do
something different. I think he
was going to go and do
podcasting, and I think he
wanted me to get into it.
Well, I think ultimately,
whatever he was going to do, you
were going to be, definitely,
you were going to be as Keith
Richards to his Mick Jagger.
Well, I don't know, I think,
because the way he was making it
sound, he wanted to do something
on his own, and he wanted me to
do something different, like he
said, You ought to do one on
music. I said, Well, yeah,
that'd be up my alley. I think
he's wanting to do I think he's
wanting to work more with
Campbell, right?
And they did, which made sense.
They had the pod goats, sure.
And that was, that was an
interesting show. I mean,
Campbell put a lot of work into
that.
He was really, I hope Campbell
gets into podcasting again,
because he's a talented I don't
think Campbell realizes how
talented he is.
Most talented people don't. They
don't.
And I wish somebody, because I
don't think I'm able to do it. I
hope somebody will fill the role
of his father in pushing him to
do something creative, because
he should. He's a very talented
kid. I say kid because he is a
young adult and I'm old, but
older, I'm older, thank you, but
yeah, I and, you know, I was
really sad when we ended up not
working together, but at the
same time, I was hoping, well,
maybe he'll find somebody around
his age group that he can do a
podcast with because I know he'd
be great.
I wanted him to do the capes and
hammers podcast with us. He
should, couple years ago, yeah,
about Marvel movies and stuff
like, oh yeah, he'd be great. I
know, you know, you say he's
probably a encyclical
encyclopedic knowledge of comic
book lore.
Well, we need it. I. The thing
about him was, when Phil brought
him in one day to the station,
you know, he was both, I think
he was sick, and every time Phil
would leave the studio, Campbell
would jump into his chair and
start talking into the mic. And
one of the times I put on the I
said, Man, you look pretty
comfortable. There. Are you
thinking about doing this for a
living? He said, Yeah. So I
thought, yeah, he's gonna follow
in his dad's footsteps. So I
hope he does
well, if you're listening,
Campbell, that's We implore you,
yeah,
we do. We do. In fact, they, I
think they were going to replace
me with Campbell. I think that's
the what the general manager had
in mind. Because one day they
had Campbell come in. He was
supposed to shadow me to see
what I do. And I thought, well,
I know what's happening here.
I'm getting ready to be trounced
out of here. And it was funny,
because Campbell, I don't think
Doug what I did, because he
goes, Oh, wow, I've got some
place to be, but I'll be back. I
said, Okay, Campbell. And so it
got to be about an hour later,
and I told Phil. I said, is
Campbell coming back? He said,
Nah, gambling coming back. Yeah,
well, that's what he told me.
Said, Nah. I said, I knew he
wouldn't. Well, he probably,
you know how much it paid, yeah,
he saw my paycheck, went, Oh, I
don't
want to do that. I could make
more on this myself. And that's
the thing, is that, you know,
figuring out what, you know how
to monetize these things? That's
that's where a lot of these in
my skill set kind of comes into
play. Yeah, you know, again, if
you want a ground opportunity,
ground floor opportunity, to
advertise with the show, yeah,
hit us up. Yeah. There is an
audience here. Come on.
Now, yeah. What are you doing?
What are you
waiting on? Come on. My buddy's
hopefully coming back with it.
Let's see. He's the person I
talked about earlier, about his
comment on commentary on radio.
Yes, should be coming through.
So anyway,
you know radio,
and I'll echo the same words
that you said, I don't like
being down on radio either. I
left on my own terms because I
felt like I scratched that edge.
Yeah, no, it was time to do
something else. I got it out of
my system and but, you know,
once you're a radio there are
people in radio and then there
are radio people. You entirely
separate, different types of
personalities. And it's and
radio people are very
passionate, I mean, to an
amazing fault, yes, about the
business, yeah. And I would
imagine when they hear people
who used to be in it talk the
way we do, yes, because we've
seen the other side. We're
living the other side. It's not
to rain down on radio. It's
almost like a
we're mourning
in a way, or trying to give a
cautionary morning to them that
things are going to have to
change. Or, you know, it could
die, and I don't want to see it
die.
There's a potential for it to
change. And, of course,
embracing the notion of podcasts
in combination with, you know,
radio stations and having a big
stick and that can reach
everybody, you know, essentially
doing what the I heart model is,
a lot of companies can do that.
It's not too late. No, it's not.
And I see a lot of opportunities
for radio to grow into the new
age and do and to become a well,
just stay viable. Just stay
relevant. And that's what I'd
like to see. We were talking
about Phil, because I said, I
remember when we went from being
syndicated back to local. I was
actually looking forward to it.
And there was a week where I
didn't get to he went back to
being local. I had to run tapes
of best ofs for a week, and when
I got back the whole the whole
show had changed. I couldn't
believe how different it was. It
was because Pamela fur was on
news, and she, all of a sudden,
had become Phil sidekick. I was
not like I remember the first
show back. I don't think I said
a word the whole show. So it was
a whole different thing. And I
thought, at first it made me
angry, but then I listened to
them and I thought, well, they
sound pretty good together.
You're so. Um, generous. You
know what I mean? Not that I'm
saying anything bad. I don't
know Pamela, right? I've never
had them together. Well, she's a
good talent, but you're, you're
looking, you're so quick to set
yourself aside, you know? Well,
I
do that because it because when
I do radio, I don't just
you're thinking about the
audience. I'm thinking
about the audience. I'm also
listening to the dynamic, and I
could tell that he was enjoying
working with her. I I did on
occasion. There have been times
I've worked with Pam, I've
really enjoyed it the other
times. I did, be quite honest,
but that's not to talk about her
talent. She's She's talented.
But I even went to Phil and I
said, Look, man, if you're
wanting this, I need something.
I need an outlet, because I
don't want to be a buddy, a
button pushing producer. So I'm
going to do something a first
here in circling the drain.
Circling the drain. We got Mr.
The guy cackling in the
background on the phone is a
good friend of mine, John David,
the guy who's been
circling the drain longer than
any of you.
I love it. So this is a good
friend of mine I was talking
about earlier, John David,
wells, he's the one who really
succinctly put to like he and I
used to talk about radio
circling the drain back in the
early 2000s Yeah. And he said it
so well, what is it, John David,
that you JD, that you've said,
meet Johnny B by the way, you
know Phil Valentine and
everybody in that yes I do. Yes,
I did. What a great,
what a great broadcaster he was.
Oh, my goodness gracious. Left
us way too soon, and good to
meet you.
Is it? Johnny b That's right,
good to meet you.
Well, that's awesome. What I
used to say about, and I still
say about radio. I've got a
couple of different sayings. And
by the way, those conversations
with James McCarthy regarding
this industry were classics. We
it wasn't one of these, you
know, bitch fests. You know,
James and I genuinely discuss
the future, genuinely discussed.
I'm not saying that's what
you're doing now. I'm just
saying that we genuinely discuss
the future of this industry, and
I still think there is one, but
it's certainly not where we are
now. And I had a couple of
different different things. One
of them was, in order to be
successful with radio, you have
to you have to give your
employees, you have to give your
on air team, especially four
things, have to give them money,
opportunity training and
respect.
Wow, if you,
if you don't have money, you
have to operate, you have to you
have to give them, you have to
provide opportunity, training
and respect. If you don't have
money or opportunity, then you
have to provide training or
respect. These are all
successful scenarios, and
sometimes, if you don't have
money, opportunity training,
respect will carry the day. But
if you don't have money,
opportunity training or respect,
it's because you're working for
Clear Channel or cumulus.
I love it, and it's funny
because
it's true, yeah. So, so the
scenario goes like this, and the
other one that I said is this
is, I do believe that the future
of radio, there is a future in
radio, but we better get
started, and we better get
started in a big damn hurry,
because what I keep saying is,
is that the meek shall inherit
the mess. Yeah, for the sake,
for the sake of the entire
medium, these corporations need
to let go some of their
properties that they can't
afford to run anyway, yeah, you
know, like, for example, they
need to, they need to cut loose
a Class B, FM, and a city grade
am, in all the major markets to
somebody, not them. You know,
whether it would be the wells
McCarthy broadcast, whatever it
would be, right? They need to
get out of they need to give
themselves some real
competition. They've got to see
beyond the next profit and loss
statement. And they've got to
see the next. They've got to see
beyond the next. Okay, how do we
convince people that we're still
a viable medium when we clearly
are not missing out on all the
revenue that's being sucked up
by by by the Internet. How can
we change that around? And we
have to get busy, and we have to
get started on there right now.
Well, thank you, sir. Can I call
you back when we're finished?
No, I will. I will talk to you
later. Thank you for that. We're
gonna, we're gonna wrap this
episode up.
So of course, you can. I'm still
gonna be working on my petition
to change the that guy's name,
that last name, to change the
last name from Landreth to pass.
Done. You know, I've got some
friends in the Nevada legal
system. I'm working on it,
because, because his first name
is Jack, so his last name would
be asked, would be much more
accurate, Jack, ask. Would be
much more accurate. Jack,
yeah, from that, I love this
industry.
I don't understand why people
keep sending my resumes back.
You're a very honest person.
Yes, you are,
and that's refreshing.
All right, my friend, well, I'll
call you back.
Okay, fine. Bye. Well, he's
right that he is everything he
said was right. And you know, my
father predicted this to me back
when deregulation happened. He
said, he said, I feel sorry for
you guys, because he said what's
going to happen is they're not
going to be able to repay their
debt. He said they're going to
run these stations to where
they're just not as enjoyable to
listen to, and they're going to
lose a lot of talent to their
own doing.
Well, that's the thing. Is that,
you know, okay, maybe it's an
opportunity for new investors to
come in and see the see the
benefit and opportunity for
investment of it's a making
sure. How do you translate that
to a public that's already on?
Yes, you know digital devices
that are listening in that
manner,
so Well, I think personality is
going to be the thing that will
is, that's what they forgotten.
Is personality, if you have,
like, you know, a big blackout,
you know, some sort of that, you
know, disaster happens radio is,
you know, is the you go back to
that. That's the emergency
backup as it stands right now,
exactly now, you know, because
we do have personalities out
there in the form of YouTubers
and podcasters and things of
that nature, you got a lot of
people who, you know, the
gatekeepers are removed, and
it's a true meritocracy with
podcasting. Hey, if you want to,
you think you can play radio, go
knock yourself out. Yeah, see
what kind of an audience you can
dredge up. It's not easy, as
easy as you think. No, it's not,
especially with, you know, so
many options.
Oh, yeah, well, and just you
know, for those that are wanting
to try talk radio, you may think
it's easy, but talk radio is
probably the toughest, toughest
format to try to do, most
expensive too. Oh, it is
expensive, but it's worth it,
though, because your audience,
if you're engaging, they will be
right with you whole way.
I think we got to wrap up by
saying a lot of nice things
about Mr.
Jay Harper. Again, I do too Jay.
Jay is probably one of the best
broadcasters I've ever met. He's
got a great voice, and I thank
God every day that number one
that you inspired me to do this,
and that Jay Harper happened to
invite me out to lunch, and the
stars aligned, yeah, it did, and
I am thankful for that. And,
man, we miss him. We want him
back on here. So it is really,
yeah, he adds a lot to the show.
I'd love to get you know, you've
just been introduced to JD. You
know, JD is ever in town to have
him on and just have the four of
us, we could do it. I mean, four
hours talking about, you know,
stories of radio. Oh, yeah, you
know, well, I'd like to get more
in because our, our salesman
episode was kind of short, so i
and plus, we have far more sales
people that we can talk about
that we forgot about. Well,
yeah, and like you said, they're
almost bigger personalities than
on air personalities were they
were, yeah, so be sure and join
us for the next circling the
drain. Jay will be back. Be sure
and follow us. Look at our
website, circling the drain.net.
And anytime you can join us, and
we will respond to you as well.
So if any time you want to leave
a comment or so, we will let you
know that we're listening to
you, and keep listening to us.
We'll be back with circling the
drain next time you you.