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We interview sustainability leaders across industries to learn what they are working on and how they are steering their companies toward a climate-friendly world.
OSS - Ben and Jerrys
Alex: Welcome to Open Source Sustainability. I'm Alex Lassiter CEO of Green Places. On this show, I talk with sustainability leaders to learn how companies are adapting business models to be in line with sustainability goals. We believe that sustainability has to be open source to be successful, and these leaders have offered us a glimpse inside their strategies in the hopes that we can all move forward together. We're fascinated by some of the unique challenges these sustainability leaders face and are excited to dive deeper.
In this episode, we speak with Jenna Evans, global Sustainability Manager at Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's has been making our favorite ice creams since 1978, and using their business to make the world a better place is what they say gives their work meaning. For Jenna, that means improving energy, efficiencies in manufacturing, developing more sustainable packaging, and reducing carbon emissions, both in scoop shops and on their dairy farms. And while doing their part to address climate crisis. They also use their products to educate customers and push political action towards making the right changes to help protect the planet.
Jenna, super excited to have you on the podcast. I know we've been teeing this up for a while and I know y'all are doing some really amazing things. So, we can kind of get into it, but maybe we start off with telling us a little bit about what you do, and what your role is within Ben and Jerry's, and kind of specifically how it pertains to sustainability and environmental stuff.
Jenna: Sure. I'm the currently the global sustainability manager for Ben and Jerry's, and I've been with Ben and Jerry's for nearly five years now, and I was hired in this role to work on our climate strategy as well as sustainable packaging. So, My job varies quite a bit day to day, depending on if we're looking at something internal like our, trying to improve our energy efficiency in our manufacturing floor, for example, or looking at different types of packaging, for our consumers or looking in scoop shops or even out on the dairy farms and trying to reduce emissions there.
Alex: Got it. And, and how does Ben and Jerry's, cuz you mentioned a couple things there. You mentioned packaging and climate, but how does Ben and Jerry's think about sustainability? Like what's, what's under that umbrella?
Jenna: Sustainability, as you already know, is like a, is a very broad term and it can encompass a whole lot of things that my role doesn't cover. So, you know, sustainability can be about conservation, it can be about water, it can be about toxics, it can be about energy, it can be about clean air. So my job isn't holistic in that sense, because my job is focused on the topics that I mentioned before.
But we definitely have a major focus on climate at Ben and Jerry's because that is the biggest issue facing the world from an environmental standpoint. And we have been doing our best for a number of years, not only to try to take action ourselves, but to educate our consumers and push, political action towards making the right changes to help protect the planet.
Alex: And I've, I feel I've been, and Jerry's has been doing this well before, you know, it was, it was part of the, the, the zeitgeist. It was something that everybody, I feel like y'all had been doing well before other people had kind of gotten started on it. So I'm just, just curious where that begins, you know, how does, how does climate justice, and advocacy and, and sustainability fit into the, the Ben and Jerry's mission? Like where does all this come from?
Jenna: Yeah, well, while many companies look at this sustainability, parts of their business as strictly environmental, Ben and Jerry's definitely looks at the intersectionality, like you mentioned. We are primarily a social justice company that happens to sell ice cream. And so we look at it through the social justice lens, knowing that the most marginalized communities are the ones that are going to be most deeply and most quickly affected by, the effects of climate change.
And so we look at it through that lens. And the founding of that sort of ethos of the company really came with, Jerry Greenfield and Ben Cohen, who are the founders back in 1978 when they started Ben and Jerry's here in Burlington, Vermont. And so they were on a mission to, you know, do better. And they started the, the ethos and the social justice work, you know, 40 plus years ago. And it continues to this day.
Alex: That's amazing. and, and when you think about some of the goals that, that you particularly have, you know, over the, the, maybe we'll call it the short term and the long term. Mm-hmm. What are you, what are you hoping to get to? Like how do you set a goal here and, and, and what are you, what are you trying to drive towards?
Jenna: Yeah, so when we set goals at Ben and Jerry's we are definitely looking to drive towards systemic change, as opposed to like a marketing claim or something nice to have. So a lot of our goals that we set are, we don't know how we will achieve them, which makes, you know, it makes people nervous if we don't know how we're gonna get there.
So like, for example, on packaging, while many companies may make claims or goals around trying to increase recycled content and things like that in their plastics, for example, we are trying to eliminate plastics completely. We don't know how we're going to do that, and there's not necessarily the technology that we need as an ice cream company to have a package without plastic right now, but it's something that we have been working on and we're really earnest about because our goal in that area aligns very directly with the values of the company.
And because plastics have, you know, severe damage to not only the environment everybody knows about, you know, the sea turtles that they see, but also on the climate, which we're also familiar with because of the oil industry, but also on the social justice angle because plastic is processed in areas that are largely populated by marginalized communities. So that's where kind of the, the social justice interest of Ben injuries comes in.
So we are trying to divest from plastic rather than making goals around increasing circularity or recycled content. We're trying to get out of it completely and move towards things that are more nature based, and will degrade in nature if they end up there.
Alex: Got it. So what is, what does that, what if I could ask like, what does that look like when you're, when you're trying to figure out how to solve a problem like that, that doesn't currently have an available technology? So when you think about, you know, reducing, getting rid, getting off plastics, is this, is this people, in R&D you know, at, at Ben and Jerry's trying to figure this stuff out? Like how do you even begin to do that? Are you working with suppliers? Like, I'm just curious if you took a step into that, like what does that actually look like?
Jenna: Yeah. I would say like if you were to ask like, well, what's the one word? It's collaboration is the word, so nobody ha, like I said, yeah, he said, I said nobody has these answers yet, but there are people out there that are, have been thinking these thoughts well before us. we are not the first to think of this.
And so yes, we're working with our suppliers. We are working creatively with, consumer organizations, like consumer protection organizations. We're talking to toxicity experts. We definitely are engaging our, the global strength of the R&D team at our company. so yeah, it's all these brains coming together, trying different things, keeping a beat on what's happening, on the fringes and, and trying our best to move forward, where we can.
And we know that whenever we make a step forward, it's. It's not always perfect and we try to be really transparent and humble about the things that we do, cuz we know we're just an ice cream company and you know, if we do it so what? But we're trying to, you know, make it easier for others to come along with us too.
Alex: That's great. Well, well, so one of the things that, that I'm really curious about, Is, is how you think about reducing emissions related to dairy. I mean, as a, as a, obviously as an ice cream company, you're, you're looking at a, a particularly difficult source of emissions, particularly as a, that's, it's something so core to who you are.
How do people even think about that? What are y'all, what are y'all thinking about there? I'm sure you're working with farmers, but I'm just curious to know what's, what's your strategy with, regarding to, to dairy and, and how are you looking at that in the next, you know, five to 10 years?
Jenna: Yeah, sure. Well, by answering your question about dairy, I'm first gonna talk to you about non-dairy because Ben and Jerry started having non-dairy activities in 2016. And while they are delicious, the consumers have not, you know, taken them up instead of dairy. We find that a lot of buyers buy non-dairy and dairy together. And so, you know, we would love for, you know, more consumers to try our non-dairy. And so that is like a, a way to reduce our emissions.
But to answer your question more directly, we are primarily a, a dairy company right now, and we'll probably be so for the foreseeable future. And I don't believe that dairy has to be like a, a negative, like when people think of dairy, I don't think they have to think it's all bad for the environment. There's the farmers that we work with have done amazing work over a number of years in lots of different areas, to work on improving their soil health, protecting water quality in their areas and also in reducing emissions. And so, The way we've attacked it is pretty logical.
We, we take a look at a farm and see, well, where are these greenhouse gas emissions coming from? And the biggest sources are the ones that we attack first. And so on a dairy farm, the number one biggest is methane from cows themselves. So cows are ruminants, which means they have four chambers in their stomach.
The rumen being the first and methane is naturally produced as they are digesting their feed. And so it's a natural process that they're burping methane all the time. And methane is really powerful greenhouse gas, which is why it happens to be the source of emissions. And so we're looking at lots of different ways to try to reduce the Methane.
There are feed additives, some are, which are on the market, some which are still being developed, that we've been working closely with organizations, bringing them onto the market. And we're also, working with the University of Vermont to try to improve the feed quality, which also helps reduce emissions naturally.
Alex: That's amazing. What, what sorts of things, cuz I think I've read somewhere, I think I've read a little bit of, of maybe is it, is it a, or some of the additives, like seaweed? Like what, what do they, what, what sorts of things do they put in in cow feed that can help to, because what we're talking about is helping them digest better. Is that, is that right? By changing the way of, of, of how we feed and, and you know, what's. Included there? Is that, is that kinda how it works?
Jenna: Well, I think it depends on what feed additive, you're talking about. So red seaweed is one of the options that is out there today. It's not well commercialized across the United States yet, but we're hopeful that it is coming really soon. And there are dairy farms in the United States that have been and are using red seaweed current. and we're hoping to in Vermont very soon.
But they all have different mechanisms within the Rumen. And I'm not going to pretend to be a dairy nutritionist or a chemist to explain, but they, you know, they have different ways of reducing the methane generation within the rumen. So, but even beyond, that's great. No. So, oh, sorry. Do you want me to keep going about the enteric or No?
Alex: I could talk about cows all day. I could talk about cows all day, but we can keep on moving. Cause I know there's a big, there's, there's a lot more to, to the story here.
So, I guess my, my, my last kind of question on that thread is, I would imagine that adding new types of feed or, or even new, new ways to raise cattle is, has an extra cost for farmers and as, as markets catch up, I'm sure that will kind of flip, but there's a piece of this which, you know, working with farmers and stuff that's, that's maybe more expensive, to be able to get going. Just kind of for that, for the environmental benefit and to kind of help move the market in that direction.
I'm just curious how, how Ben and Jerry's, works with dairy farmers or if you're, if you're familiar, how, how they work with dairy farmers to be able to, to help them bridge that gap. Help them make something that's, you know, gonna be obviously good for the planet, but also can, can help, you know, support their families in the ways that they produce an income.
Jenna: So I guess the first thing I wanted to say was that farmers are like already stewards of the earth and they're already doing a lot of great things to protect and preserve the integrity of the land that they're working.
And so what we are doing is trying to bring resources that they might not otherwise have in bringing in, you know, novel researchers and things that they're not out there. You. TA going to the latest conferences or talking to researchers about the latest they're working on, you know, sustaining their, their business.
And so I think what we're bringing is financial resources and support to farms, and bringing in experts as opposed to ourselves. You know, Ben and Jerry’s doesn't ever go in and dictate what the farm should be doing. They are independent business owners. but we can bring in experts that are trusted, such as agronomists or nutritionists or energy experts that can help shed light on some things that could be overlooked or that they may not have known before.
So we're kind of working in the areas where the expertise wasn't there before.
Alex: That's great. That's amazing. It's, it's great to see a brand being able to, to actually get out, and support the folks that are producing this stuff to be able to help 'em on that path. Cuz you know, I know this stuff is difficult and it's complicated, but I'm sure having the support of a, you know, of a company like Ben and Jerry's to do that really helps move things along. So, so that's amazing.
So y'all obviously have a very, very complex carbon supply chain. You've got issues and, and, and things to deal with from everything, obviously from producing the product to packaging it, manufacturing it, and getting out to people. But what, what sort of unique challenges do you think that y'all face in this journey?
Is there anything that come to mind of something that feels like, I dunno, something that's really interesting of, of how y'all have had to solve something that, that, you know, maybe other companies haven't had to, just given the fact of, of who Ben and Jerry's is?
Jenna: I don't know if I would say any of our challenges are unique actually, because the challenge, like when you look at our carbon footprint, about almost 75% of it comes from agriculture. So whether it's from dairy or sugar or fruits and nuts, things like that. And agricultural supply chains are obviously super common cuz we all eat as do our animals.
And, I wouldn't say that our challenges are unique in any way, but it is very difficult to work within supply chains alone. And I would say that one thing that we are trying to do more and more is collaborate, because, You know, although we may seem like a big brand because people recognize our name, when you're talking about like a particular industry, like sugar like, or a particular commodity like sugar or cocoa, the amount that we buy on a global basis is just a drop in the bucket.
And so it takes a lot of collaboration between different buyers of commodities to push the industry in a particular. So se I mean, I don't think the challenges are unique to us actually. And the same would go for manufacturing. Companies need to be looking at their energy, not only their electrical energy, but their thermal energy to drive processes. And that's very common throughout any food processing industry and many others as well.
Alex: What's one thing that you wish your customers knew about sustainability at Ben and Jerry?
Jenna: I would say that Ben and Jerry's is really driving towards systemic change. So we are not out there some of our fans have asked us like, well, why, why aren't you carbon neutral? Like, why aren't you doing X, Y, Z? This other brand that I love is, why are you not? And what I would say is that we are not putting band-aids on, you know, our problems, and then saying it's all solved. We are trying to drive systemic change within our supply chain and the impact areas that are caused by the existence of Ben and Jerry's, and not trying to use some sort of like a, like an offset scheme, for example, to, to claim carbon neutrality when that really doesn't help lessen the impacts of having ice cream manufactured in this world.
Alex: So, one, and I love that, one of the things that. That, that I love about, Ben and Jerry's and the way that you approach this is, to create systemic change you have to work, work with people, and share ideas and share best practices, help other people along. I'm curious, do y'all do anything with, with other companies and other brands outside your supply chain to kind of help educate, on how you do this stuff, to bring other people along?
I'm just curious, how some of this knowledge is disseminated because y'all are so far along on many of these things and many businesses aren't. I'm just curious if there's ways for other companies listening in on this to say, Hey, if we want to try to implement some of these things, we wanna follow along in the path and learn from some of the things that y'all are doing.
Is there resources or things that y'all do to be able to help kind of share this with other food producers, manufacturers? You know, businesses looking to make a difference?
Jenna: Well, I wouldn't necessarily claim to be an expert in any particular area, and I would say that there are like many, many industries that already have trade associations and sustainability collaboration groups that you could join into, depending on your industry.
It's pretty common across the board, and that's like a space where you will find other practitioners like myself, like I could go to a dairy sustainability forum and the people there would know exactly the problems I'm facing with cow burping and manure and everything else. And the same would go for other commodities or manufacturing, you know, sustainability and so forth.
So I would say to just look out there about what's in your industry. And reach out to people. I think my experience in my 15 years in the sustainability field is that sustainability professionals are often alone or on very small teams, and they enjoy learning from others and, collaborating where appropriate to try to help others along.
I think Ben and Jerry's definitely sees sustainability as pre-competitive. We don't market our ice cream. We're not selling anything more by being more sustainable because we like to talk about social justice. And so it's, it's a very pre-competitive space for us to be trying to, you know, pull others along to make the world better.
Alex: Well, I think this is something that we've talked about a, a good bit, which is just this idea. And I, I love the idea of being non-competitive when it comes to sustainability because if, if, if one brand, if Ben and Jerry's really, really does this, but nobody else does, nothing ever changes. And I love the idea that Ben and Jerry's is using, using its resources and, it's expertise to be able to create the path for people not to, not to create a competitive space. Yeah, to get something where we can, we can live in a world, you know, 10 or 15 years from now, that that looks a lot different. And you played a role in it, but it wasn't a role to necessarily just get ahead.
How, how can your loyal fans and customers get involved. How can the average person who supports Ben and Jerry's products is like myself? How can we help? Like what are things that, that customers can do to, to help you and your mission.
Jenna: Well to help Ben and Jerry's specific mission, you could, if you wanna learn about like what we're working on, following our social media is the best way to find out what we're working on, cuz there's always different, you know, information that'll pop up not only about sustainability, but our values led sourcing and activism programs as well.
So you can stay informed there. And we often have calls to action about, things related to Ben and Jerry's values that you can take part in. But I would just say in general, you know, being aware of issues you care about, especially locally and in your state, are areas where it's easy to kind of dip a toe in, start to learn more, get involved and, and vote on those issues.
Alex: Are there earth friendly Ben and Jerry's flavors, what are the most earth friendly Ben and Jerry's products that, that a consumer could, could, could take on?
Jenna: So our lowest impact products are our non-dairy ice creams, because they're derived from plants rather than dairy. We're hoping someday that our dairy will be just as low impact as the plant-based ice creams, but that's not the case today. So we have a very wide assortment of non-dairy ice creams that both come in an almond base as well as the sun butter. And we have gluten-free options and all sorts of other yummy flavors in those categories. So you can check those out, at your local grocery store.
And then I would say the other thing that we have that's pretty low impact is our cookie dough chunks, because those are largely plant-based as well. And so frozen cookie dough is also in the freezer aisle if, and they're very addictive, so be careful.
Alex: That's great. What, what would you say is the most surprising fact about Ben and Jerry's when it comes to sustainability?
Jenna: I think sometimes consumers are surprised, like how much we work within our supply chains and how much we know about where we're sourcing our ingredients from. I wouldn't say that's necessarily a sustainability, I mean, it's related to sustainability for sure, you know? But we know the farms, farmers by name and visit them and talk with our supply chains and other ingredients as well, and work very closely with them on, and take a lot of pride in how we're sourcing and what we're sourcing, when it, whether it's like fair trade or non-GMO or all different ingredients.
Alex: Makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's hard. I think it's, it, I mean, it Ben and Jerry's a big company, so having that amount of suppliers and being able to have that relationship with them, I think is, is, is super important and, and really impressive. so I think my last question is, what is, what is your Be and Jerry's flavor?
What's your, maybe we can two, two ways. You can either say what is your, your favorite flavor or what is a flavor that you wish existed? Do you have a dream one that you've come up with that hasn't made it to the counters yet?
Jenna: Hmm. That's hard. I'm definitely a chocolate person, but my eyes have been very much open since I've worked at Ben and Jerry's because every time they come out with a flavor that I think I'm not gonna like it turns out to be really amazing.
I would say I'm a little spoiled though, cuz I. I'm around the people that invent the flavors every day and they, they teach you how to temper the ice cream and make sure you leave it out long enough and you know, and they tell you more about the ice cream, which makes you love it.
Alex: There's a method to do that?
Jenna: Yes.
Alex: So, okay. There's a way, there's a special way to eat the ice. Okay. Well how do you, how does, how does somebody, cuz when I eat it, I just, I basically just open it and just, I, I eat it as fast as humanly possible. So what's the, what is the proper way to enjoy a pint of Ben and Jerry's ice cream?
Jenna: So the best way not to frustrate yourself or bend your spoons in half is to leave your pint out on the counter for about 10 minutes before you dive in. And then it's, it's much softer, way easier to scoop, and you can get to your chunks. So it's funny, we've talked to a lot of different consumers over the years, and some people, people eat their, their ice cream in all different ways.
Some of them like to eat it so that it always tastes smooth on the top. Some people dive for chunks, some people eat around the edges. So there's no right way to do it, just as long as you're enjoying it. But I would say leave it out for 10 minutes and it's definitely easier to eat.
Alex: I, I do the, I, I, I run the, the spoon under hot water is what I do. Oh. So I heat up the spoon so then I can eat it. so then I can eat it faster. Yeah, that's, that's my trick. Well this is great. I really appreciate you taking the time today. This has been super informative. Learned a lot. I feel like I need to go, talk to some dairy farmers around here and kind of get a sense of how they're thinking about things.
And obviously probably enjoy some ice cream tonight. So, great. Thank you so much for, taking the time to chat today and, I appreciate you joining Open Source Sustainability.
Jenna: All right, thanks, Alex.
Alex: Thank you to Jenna for joining us and thank you for listening. If you like the show, please be sure to leave a review and follow this podcast wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode.
This podcast is powered by Green Places, and if you're looking to reduce your company's environmental impact and reach your sustainability goals, visit green places.com to learn more. I'm Alex Lassiter and I'll talk with you next time on Open Source Sustainability.