Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
tyson (00:29.966)
God, I... Hey, go on, man.
Gordo Byrn (00:31.188)
Okay.
Doing well, thanks.
tyson (00:35.458)
You've got a great setup there.
Gordo Byrn (00:37.691)
Yeah, I do. I got like a Sony camera and
tyson (00:43.426)
Very nice.
Gordo Byrn (00:46.038)
Teleprompter, like I got the camera behind a screen so I can look right at whoever I'm talking to.
tyson (00:52.342)
So good, I've actually I'm waiting on one piece to come in from Amazon I'm looking up at a nice microphone that I bought actually you've got the sure It's SMB the one of the I think we've got a similar microphone anyway same brand I've just I've done a little update so I've turned into a bit of a tech geek in the meantime
Gordo Byrn (01:11.454)
Yeah, it works great. I like it.
tyson (01:14.978)
Awesome, awesome Gordo. Man, thanks so much for agreeing to come on. I was pumped when I got the message back to say that you're gonna come on. I listened back to you and Rich roll yesterday just to get organized and man, that was such a great chat you guys had.
Gordo Byrn (01:30.95)
Yeah, well, we've been kind of following each other for years, so it was nice to make the connection.
tyson (01:36.458)
It was funny actually, yeah, just to hear about that connection and how similar your paths were, but happening sort of without either of you, either of you realising it was a funny little journey, I guess, that you both took in terms of the way that your life went.
Gordo so today I don't know how much you know man Like this is a it's a podcast aimed at middle distance runners or athletes in running based sports. So I know Um, I don't know specific numbers of triathletes, but I know there's plenty of triathletes But there's also there's a large running audience who I just I was it's funny man, like on a personal level You know, sometimes I was I was in the car for about three hours yesterday and I put that podcast on
And yeah, I was just sitting there and I was like, oh my gosh, it's one of those conversations, or I feel like you're one of those kinds of guys that I could talk to you about 15 different things. So for my own clarity today, I was kind of hoping to go into it and pick your brains around some of your coaching philosophies. And I know that ventures out into other areas of life, there's so many things that can potentially cover.
But I just, I had a little bit of a sense as I was driving along that could be a cool target or a cool avenue to take. Cause I reckon a lot of the athletes would benefit regardless of what sport they're from. Just hearing you talk about your philosophy, particularly that thousand day plan. I was really fascinated to talk to you about if you're open to that. And we can go down any rabbit holes you like to go down. And yeah, it's, I mean, I'm sure we're not gonna be stuck for things to talk about. There's so many things I'm keen to pick your brain about.
Gordo Byrn (03:02.048)
Yeah.
tyson (03:15.782)
Awesome man. Should we get into it? Awesome Gordo. Well for everyone listening, I was just saying before we hit record that in a little bit of preparation for the conversation today, I was driving home from Gippsland to Point Lonsdale for anyone who's in Victoria here and I decided to put on a podcast where I first heard of You Gordo, which was the Rich Roll podcast. And there was honestly about
Gordo Byrn (03:18.402)
Let's do it.
tyson (03:42.214)
seven different things. I went home and I had a look at the podcast website and I just started clicking links and going down rabbit holes and looking at Twitter because there are so many avenues of your life and your philosophies that I thought would be really interesting. But I've just said to Gordo that I'm really keen to pick his brains around coaching specifically and see wherever that takes us. But with all of that said Gordo, thanks so much for agreeing to come on. I'm really excited to have the chance to sit down with you.
I know that you're gonna be well received here because I actually, I've had a couple of people request that I reach out and get you on. But before we get into all that, what's going on where you are at the moment? What's happening in, are you in Colorado?
Gordo Byrn (04:22.534)
Yeah, Boulder, Colorado. So, uh, I'm coming back. That's really my main focus is I had 10 years with, uh, where it was family, marriage and kids, and I put all my competitive drive on the back burner. Uh, we've got three kids and when they were young, it dominated every aspect of my life.
And now our youngest is 11. Now our oldest about to turn 15 and it's just shifted. And time's coming back into my life. And I'm using that time to apply everything I learned in sports, but to a much older body. And learning the lessons.
Frankly, that I wish I knew 20 years ago when I used to coach guys that were my age because it's different. And I'm learning those lessons really as a master's athlete. I'm gonna be 55 at the end of the year and just trying to figure out how to get fast again. And it's similar, but it's also different. And as well, the sports moved on. And so we have a better idea of why certain things
work that we noticed when we were training and doing our endurance training, the pieces are starting to come together on why certain techniques worked. And I think we're much better equipped to focus on getting positive adaptations in the athletes. The core of the program in terms of what works, I don't think that's changed very much, but I think our focus has shifted more towards specific adaptation.
as opposed to just chucking a ton of work at people and seeing who can survive. So that's been a shift. And in terms of myself, you know, you mentioned the Rich Roll podcast, I talked about thousand day timelines. I mean, I'm really on more of a five year, five, six year timeline looking towards when I age up into the 60 plus and just.
Gordo Byrn (06:39.598)
I really want to see how good I can be in my early 60s. And I'm patiently putting the pieces together, hopefully, to do some really quality racing in my 60s.
tyson (06:51.39)
It's a really interesting philosophy. I think for any regular listeners to this show, one thing that I'm sure they're well and truly sick of hearing me say is that distance running has a reputation for rewarding the most consistent. But it's interesting because it's far more than that. And I think when you start to scratch the surface of what it is that you're saying, obviously consistency is one thing, but then beneath the surface of consistency is so many different approaches. I mean, you can consistently do the wrong thing and.
not get the results that your body's capable of doing. So I think you're the scaffold or you're the setup that I'd be really interested to hear about what is involved in regards to training in a way which is not only consistent but which is effective for the particular athlete that we're referring to. And one of the things that I'm old enough to recognise now, I'm 36, interestingly, I'm in the phase of life that...
I was inspired hearing you speak about yesterday, as much as I love having my two little boys, I've got a three year old and one who's just turned one on the weekend and terrifyingly, but excitingly, conversations around potentially a third. There's a lot that has gone on even in the last 10 years, which I feel has radically changed the conversation around endurance performance, whether that be in distance running, triathlon.
the ultra events and beyond all of that, the technology which is available to us now is mind-blowing. Just the amount that we can learn through a ring or an app or a website, the data that we have access to. I find the balance really fascinating about
being in touch with your body and learning to listen to what your body is actually telling you. And then also seeing what the stats and the data is actually telling you. And I'm a little bit old school, I feel in my regards. Perhaps I started my distance running journey with an 80 year old coach who everything was done by feel. And while I like that because it felt easy, I think there was plenty of times where I was out there on a run and maybe being a little dishonest with myself. And that's where the data I think is effective to me now where it goes, okay, Ties, you can kid yourself that you're doing a.
tyson (09:04.318)
a tempo run or a threshold run, but all the numbers now suggest that you're very, very close to maximum effort. This is more of a race effort session. So I guess as a way of introduction, there's a few things there. I'm keen to unpack this thousand day journey and this three year plan, but I'm also really interested to hear your thoughts or your approach to that balance between being in touch with your body and what it's telling you, but also being open to the data and the technology and how that applies to your own performance.
Gordo Byrn (09:33.49)
Yeah, let's start there. I think that's a great place to start. So with the highly connected athlete, I think it's important for that athlete to develop the ability to know how they feel separate from the data. And many of us start the day by downloading our overnight data. And before we've even had a thought, our data is telling us how we're supposed to feel. Or we might think...
our data is telling us how we're supposed to feel. And because we're getting numbers and metrics and seemingly objective info, we might think it has more value than how we actually feel ourselves. Something I've found sort of plugging myself in and looking at all this stuff is there's an inherent variability in our bodies. And even if we're feeling good and coping,
There's this variability both day to day, across the day. And if you're using a metric like heart rate variability, it's even minute to minute. And our thoughts can impact these metrics, now our heart rate, our heart rate variability. I mean, if you, for instance, if you ever get a shocking message and then you test your heart rate variability right after.
you'll find that it's completely tanked for a few minutes, just from that little bit of stress. And so if you're gonna base your entire training day on this one metric, which is highly variable in itself, you're gonna be jumping all around a bit. So one way around this concept is to focus more on trends and normal ranges. And so I would, someone listening to this, I would say, don't let the data, first off, don't let the data tell you how you feel. It's better to decide
your subjective feeling and going through your subjective checklist before you even look at the data. So the two are separate. Then the next thing is you need to focus on the trend. How is the training trending? And am I within my normal range? And for me, I have really simple metrics that I've found work very well. It's just my seated resting heart rate morning and evening. And I have a normal range for that. And if I know...
Gordo Byrn (11:56.458)
Because I recover slower as a master's athlete, I know if I'm more than five beats elevated in the evening, for whatever reason, the day's taken quite a bit out of me and the next day either needs to be an easy day or a maintenance day, it can't be a loading day. And that, I mean, resting heart rate's one of the oldest metrics that we've had available to us. And then there's all this other stuff that we can have, but they're all kind of supplementary.
And I think it's important to figure out over time, remember you're trying to make better decisions, but it's really more about making fewer poor decisions. It's about pulling mistakes out. Because I think the most costly errors are where we hit ourselves and instead of getting an adaptation, we're just making ourselves more tired, running the risk of injury, putting ourselves in a hole. So I think that's what it's more about.
So the heart rate variability and some of these other more sophisticated metrics are really good as a negative signal. So they're not giving me the green light, they're showing me before I can feel it that it might be a red light type of day. And if I see that in the morning, I am still open. If I'm feeling good, I'm still open to going out and training. Then I go to the next phase and it's like, well, how do I feel in my warmup?
as my heart rate coming up is the feeling okay. Cause sometimes you're just feeling a bit run down for whatever reason in the morning. You go out, you do a longer warmup, heart rate comes up, the feeling's good. I'm good to go. There's no reason for me not to train. But 20 years ago, 25 years ago, if I had a session in my calendar and it said you gotta go out and do the session, I'm gonna do it no matter what.
Now with these additional metrics, they give me the confidence to say, you know what? I'm gonna do the session, but not today. I'm gonna push it out when I'm ready to get benefit from the session. And the focus on adaptation, so a more dynamic approach to loading. I don't load when something's in my calendar, I load when I'm ready to absorb that session. I think is probably the biggest shift over the last 20 years.
Gordo Byrn (14:10.042)
is this focus on, look, let's get some benefit rather than just doing the work. Whereas prior we were more work focused. So that would be how I'd approach the, if you like the gizmos and the data. One thing I like, you mentioned, so I got an aura ring. And the most useful thing about the aura ring is actually that in effect, I take my temperature. I know what my overnight temperature is. And that's something that I would never track.
tyson (14:23.96)
Yeah.
Gordo Byrn (14:39.026)
unless I was actually sick and checking for a fever. And that is even better than the heart rate variability. If I've been exposed to a virus or some sort of illness, that has done a really good job of letting me know before I realized that I might be at risk for getting sick. So I've missed, I mean, you never really know if you miss it, but I've missed, I think I've missed getting ill two or three times over the last year.
And if you're a competitive athlete or a high performance athlete, missing illness is a very valuable form. So it's a useful thing. And that's the only way that I would capture the data because I'd never bother taking my temperature in the morning otherwise.
tyson (15:21.93)
Yeah, yeah, before so much of this technology was available, even just going back to 2006, I was training with an Australian coach. He was an Australian Olympic coach named Adam Diddick. He got a really good reputation for the marathon runners that he coaches. And one thing that he used to say to me was, whenever I write your training program, I want you to consider that it's written in pencil. Meaning that if you wake up in the morning and you do have a temperature or a fever or you're sick, like the idea of doing volume on a day where it should clearly be
rest, it's counterintuitive and it's not beneficial for you, it's not beneficial for today or for the future. In reference to what you were saying about what you monitor overnight, so you've mentioned heart rate variability, a heart rate and also temperature. Are there any other things that you're looking out for before you make a decision the next day on what you think would be the best way forward with training?
Gordo Byrn (16:14.13)
Yeah, so a big one for me is how fast I fall asleep at night. So if we think about two different types of being overreached, so if I've overdone it, there's kind of a low energy fatigue, but on the flip side, there's an overstimulated fatigue. In other words, if I've done too much, too much intensity or too much load, I'll be amped at night. My body's going to be very up.
even though I'm tired. Now that's a sign that I gotta get myself back down. Now, ideally, I put my tough training early in the day and across the day, I'm coming down. But sometimes it doesn't work that way or the dose was too big and I'm still amped at night. So, you know, one night of being amped is not a big deal. It won't really impact things. But if you find yourself in a pattern where you're consistently amped, not falling to sleep, it's a really good...
early warning signal that the overall plan, you gotta unload and kind of bring yourself down because when you're in an overstimulated state, you're not ready to absorb the work you're doing. You're also, particularly if you're in a bit of an energy deficit, at a much greater risk for overtraining and going into a deep or starting a downward spiral. And so it's important to pay attention to that.
sleep. So we talk about sleep quality, but that's kind of nebulous. I can never really remember, you know, my watch says things about waking up and things like that. I can't really remember that, but I always have a good idea. Well, what was it like falling asleep? How did I feel when I was lying in bed? And I think that is a great indicator. And that's another one that's been with us for a long time. I mean, you know, we've all been tracking sleep and knowing how we sleep.
And that almost that, am I relaxed when I'm lying down at the end of the day is a great one. Kids, you know, you mentioned you got the two little kids. How do I interact with my family? That is a really good one. I lose my patience before I realize I'm overreached. I just have like noise in the house. It's like, I gotta get out of this house. And that's another sign. So I know, I just know these things. I was like, wow, everything's starting to bother me.
Gordo Byrn (18:37.074)
It's a sign I got to back off a bit. Likewise, when I'm patient, I'm falling asleep, the training's getting done, I know I'm gonna progress. And these long time horizons are helpful for that because it's not really this day or even this week, it's the stacking of the weeks and the stacking of the months that are gonna develop us as athletes. And a longer time horizon is a great way to do that. And it's about not compromising, well.
So what's a good week? For me, a good week is a week that I can follow with another good week, if you know what I mean. So it's not even this day-to-day thing. If I think I've done a good week, I don't make my mind up on that until I'm in my next week, because it's kind of easy for any of us to throw down for like five to seven days. But then if we get sick or fall apart the following week, we know we went too far. Same deal with little injuries. You come up with a minor injury,
That's a classic sign that the prior six weeks were way too high. And you were probably fooling yourself, feeling good, for the first three weeks of those. And then it starts to come off and you're kind of grinding through. So you got to look at that, well, what was my six week average? And for run mileage, that's a great way to look at things. And then you got to step down from that kind of six week average. It's never really what happened the day before or even the week before. It's that chronic load in a run sense that beats us down.
tyson (20:04.826)
Yeah, it's so interesting to see an athlete when they've managed to tie together weeks and months and in some instances even years of relatively consistent training and just seeing how durable their bodies become. One thing that I've noticed this year after a few years of competitive running, I came back in January and made the decision that I was going to aim to run the Melbourne Marathon which has taken place in two weeks here.
And I set myself the goal of breaking two hours 40, which I thought was reasonable based on my history in the sport. And as a first marathon, I thought, okay, this would be great. But one thing I didn't take into consideration was in the last probably six years since I've really done competitive running, I mean, I've still been out jogging regularly, I'll still do regular sprints on the weekend or some interval sessions here and there, but the volume and the intensity that a lot of that volume was done at just hadn't been done.
And I'd also been in the gym a lot more consistently. So I don't know what it is in pounds, but I went from 69 kilos to 79 kilos in that space. I mean, it was planned. It wasn't just blubber. I was trying to build muscle, something I promised my wife I would do when I got out of distance running originally. I said, I promise I'll cover up those ribs. You can be proud to see me on the beach. But I went back out there with...
Gordo Byrn (21:15.622)
the
tyson (21:22.09)
the mindset that, okay, I've got a history in the sport. I know how to train. I know how to structure my training. I've got a fairly good idea of how to train for a marathon, even though I hadn't really done it in the past. And my struggle for the year had been just constant calf strains. And initially I was completely unaware of how to navigate it and improve it. But over the course of this year, even when I think I've gotten completely on top of it, I've had six or eight weeks of consistent running.
I'll go out and probably slightly push a session a little too hard and just get another little strain. So it's a long way of saying, it's been so interesting off a field base only, trying to improve my running and continually falling short. And even then when I think I've got a good idea of what's required to see me train consistently, I'll lift the intensity slightly. Maybe it's at the end of a bigger week or just the pace was too hard for too long.
and it seems me, sees me fall up short. So I say all that to say, it's, I love listening to you because you speak with, your concepts aren't simple, obviously, but the way you explain it is very simple. But I know that beneath a simple presentation is a lot of hard work and data digging and research. And it's actually quite a messy process until you come up with your final product. So I guess I say all that to ask,
One thing that stood out to me in the podcast you did with Rich, that I listened to yesterday, was you're very confident when you come up with a decision about how it is you're going to structure your training. I really liked the confidence that you spoke with in reference to the training style that you had chosen. What gives you that style of confidence or that sort of confidence about the training that you've actually structured for where you are and what you're trying to achieve? Because
Gordo Byrn (23:05.928)
Yeah.
tyson (23:15.302)
Even as a bloke who's been involved in the sport now for over 20 years, I'm constantly amazed at the different styles of training, particularly recently, that are available and that are starting to produce really big results.
Gordo Byrn (23:28.574)
So I think there's a bunch of great stuff we can chat about there. I got a lot of ideas about that. Let's start with belief and confidence. That's the number one thing a coach brings to an athlete. The, um, much more than the plan. The, the belief that the coach has in the athlete is the fundamental, um, force between them, that relationship.
is what generates the gains. And I would go so far to say, if you have really strong belief in an average plan, you're gonna get good results. The plan won't get in the way. And it's a conversation at the elite level. You're gonna be going back and forth and you're really just a sounding board because experienced athletes, elite athletes, they already know how to train.
You're really just trying to give them some visibility, being outside of their bubble and helping them not hurt themselves. So it's a guardian angel role. And I look for that with my relationships and somebody that's overseeing my training. It's somebody with different blind spots that's going to keep me from hurting myself or repeating errors or just giving me a bit of comfort that maybe it is time to back off because in my background, my issue has been doing too much, not...
doing too little. I think the people that do too little ultimately don't get that good. So once you get up to a certain level, most of us are kind of, it's more downside than upside. And we can assume that. We might not feel that on the inside, but that's kind of just the way it is. Now here's something that I think is different. I approach my running in terms of whole body fitness, and this is very different than a lot of runners.
And I don't have experience with elite runners, but I certainly have experience with elite triathletes. And one of the things that we bring to running is whole body fitness. It's the fitness we have in our swimming and the fitness we have in our cycling. And while I don't necessarily think it's worth learning to swim, it might not necessarily help your running times. I definitely think for most athletes, particularly injury prone athletes,
Gordo Byrn (25:50.71)
there is an important role to be played by cycling. And I used cycling with all the runners I coached. And recently, my first, after a 10 year break from running with a lot of calf problems, very similar to you, I tried to come back twice in the 10 years, both times lower leg issues, it all just got too hard. I just gave up. And I came back, my first run was July 1st.
2022 and I was able to complete an ultra last month, September, 2023. So it was a 70K race, 61K of running and nine K of swimming in it. And I got through that. So I was able to come back. I didn't win it. I wasn't at the front of it. I just got through it, but that was a big win for me. And a whole body approach using the bike.
to accelerate my aerobic development worked for me. And if someone's looking to step up their distance or their duration, I think there's a key role for the bike to play. Now, this is not just the elite level. This would be everybody, because if you know the average time for a marathon, let's say it's about four hours, depending on the race, there's no way you can take a recreational runner and send them out.
for a three hour run and have them ready to run again two days later. They're just gonna be too beat up, too tired. And if you keep doing that over and over again, they're gonna get injured. So, but what you can do is you can say, well, we're gonna ride the bike for half an hour and we're gonna run for half an hour. And we're gonna do that three times in a row on your long day. And you're gonna get the experience.
of what it's like to run after two and a half hours of exercise. And you can use combination workouts and you can also train the body to function for the race duration. So you can go, you can build this long ride up to four hours and you can train the body to actually function and move for the race duration and still recover because you're gonna be biomechanically limited. So when you're working with a master's athlete or developing athlete, young athlete.
Gordo Byrn (28:12.902)
or a very fit athlete who's returning to running, who has the capacity to hurt themselves very easily, this bike outlet that you're giving them will prevent them from injury. And you're gonna end up with more, you're actually gonna end up with more running because you'll have less interruptions. And the running that is done can be, you won't have to be, I mean, you'll be able to do decent training most of the time. The other thing that I like for the bike is if you're dealing with a runner,
who has a particularly slow cadence. So some people are kind of more lopers. You can do quickness work on the bike at a low power output where you get them to try and hold a cadence above 90. And ultimately you can get them to the point where they can hold say 95 RPMs. And it's a really interesting way to train quickness in somebody. And I would use it as a warmup.
before we were gonna do some quick sessions. So before we're gonna do some fast running, it would have, it's easy, it's not gonna take any energy away from the run training, but it's gonna get the body ready to move quickly. And so we're training the quickness. So the bike becomes a way to train duration, to give the athlete more aerobic volume overall, and then for quickness training. And these three components can be really useful in a blended program, because most
runners when they're developing are not going to be getting enough hours of exercise to develop their mitochondria in an optimal way. That's one area where the triathletes have a bit of an advantage with the three sports is this development, this overall aerobic development that they get. And for short duration races, you don't necessarily see it. It's there though, it's limiting, but it's limiting in a kind of hidden way on the ath...
tyson (30:07.85)
Yeah.
Gordo Byrn (30:09.038)
on the athletes and particularly for the ability to back up fast efforts, the more aerobically fit you are in the low end, the faster you're gonna clear the lactate, the faster everything's gonna bounce back, both day to day, but also interval to interval. You'll improve your recovery intervals as well. And you'll have a little pace change is much better too.
tyson (30:29.914)
Yeah, it's so interesting. There's, there's, so the aerobic element of the cross training for a runner on the bike makes a lot of sense to me, the, uh, the fact that it's going to be just giving you that opportunity to build more hours in building that system makes sense. Because obviously the load that's going through your legs is going to be a lot less on a bike than what it is when you're out there running that one thing I'd never even considered. It's the first time I've actually heard that, which also makes sense is the idea of just training that cadence for someone who might be a little
lopea. What's going on with that actual process? Because I mean you think of an alternative to that which is obviously a lot more weight bearing might be just doing some shorter faster sprints where they're required to move at a faster rate than what they're going to in a marathon.
Gordo Byrn (31:15.262)
Yeah, so that's rate. So there's the ability to fire the muscle quickly, but there's a neuromuscular type of fatigue, which is the ability to fire the muscle repeatedly. Now, the joint angles aren't quite the same, obviously biking to running, but this ability to fire the muscle repeatedly, as well as this higher cadence, the athlete tip will break down.
if they're trying to do this type of training on a running basis. So this is, if you're ever coaching anybody over 60, the bike is a great place to do this. You say, I want you to go ride for, I mean, for Ironman, we build it up to three hours with some of my 60 plus athletes, and I want the cadence over 90 the whole time. And I don't care what the power is or what the heart rate is. And then so it's a neuromuscular session.
It's very challenging. Most people have to do it in intervals because they're gonna need to drop the cadence just to kind of recover, but it's not recovery in an energy sense. It's just recovering, just sending those signals down to the muscles. Really effective. It's a different type of stress from what the athlete would be giving themselves if they were doing sprints or strides or the shorter burst sessions.
tyson (32:36.306)
Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It's really interesting. I'm gonna have to, I knew there was going to be moments during this podcast where I was stunned in a light because I'd just heard of something new and I had to just riff on my feet and that's where I find myself right now. I had spoken to a number of athletes on this podcast actually one is an Olympic steeple chaser Genevieve Gregson here in Australia and she was constantly having lower leg injuries. She's from a group Melbourne Track Club which is renowned for having quite heavy loads.
throughout the week, like they're fairly consistently, a lot of the group, even their milers, 1500 meter runners are running around, between 90 and 100 miles a week, a lot of the year, and they've got an amazing ability to run fast and run fast for a long time, whether it's sort of 1500 or 10K. But one thing that she started doing was, so she started including a lot more, she was just doing some water running. And the idea there was for her to develop just that aerobic capacity that she'd miss out on.
because she was every morning, she'd be going out, I think it was every morning, she'd be going out and doing a 30 to 40 minute easy run. And obviously over the course of the week, you're looking at what's that, like an extra 20 or 30 miles potentially. For her, her body just wasn't absorbing that extra work. She felt as though like the intense work and the basic foundation of her structure was good. But then with those morning runs, it just got to a point where it pushed her past that threshold.
of being able to tolerate it. And one thing she found really beneficial was getting that waist belt on, getting the aerobic workout in a pool sense. Would something like that from your opinion, I don't know how familiar you are with that, be beneficial for someone trying to improve? Obviously, I mean, on paper, it seems to make sense aerobically, you're getting your heart rate up for a long, or as long as you like in the pool. But in terms of cadence and helping that leg turnover, do you think that connection would be beneficial?
Gordo Byrn (34:32.402)
Well, the first question I would ask the athlete is, do you like it? Like, are we gonna be using much mojo here? Are we using mental energy for this supplemental training? Because I wouldn't wanna do that. I'd wanna save the mental energy for the training that's gonna be challenging. So one of the challenges with water running is almost everybody hates it. Now some people like it.
So if the athlete is someone who enjoys being in the water and some people do, then great. If they don't, I don't wanna get them mentally tired getting them to the pool as a runner. And that would be something where I'd be like thinking, well, maybe we could get something done on the bike here. So that would be how I would approach water running. I spent a number of Southern summers training in Christchurch in New Zealand.
And water running was, you know, a lot of people did it. We had a 50 meter pool and it was, you know, deep the whole way and some people did it, but other people, they would just reduce the run load and shift over to the bike. Now, let's talk a bit about this situation that this runner found herself in.
So a concept that we should all bear in mind is at any point in time, we have break point volume. And it was one that was brought up by a friend of mine, Alan Cousins. And our break point volume is gonna change as we age, but in the short term, it changes based on our life stress and what we have going on as well as the training program. So there's these different factors that are gonna be impacting our break point volume.
And if we're not tolerating the plan, we're past the breakpoint. There's no judgment required. As soon as the overuse injury or the niggle turns up, the, the overall approach we have needs to change full stop. So we can, if all you're doing is doing all these recovery modalities to try and get you back to a plan that's breaking you in the first place, you're going to be in a cycle of not progressing as an athlete and it's going to ultimately
Gordo Byrn (36:51.586)
take your enjoyment away and you're at the start of a downward spiral, whether you realize it or not. So something's gonna need to change. So you need to reset your expectation. Now, this is something I've gone through as an older athlete. It's something we're all going to go through. So we're gonna have what worked for us when we were developing, when we were younger, when we were at our peak. And at some point that'll stop working. And we're gonna have to figure out another way to manage it.
And one of the things I've learned from my mentors who race successfully all the way up into their seventies is that at some point, it's gonna become staying in the game more than the training itself. So it's gonna be the ability to train is gonna be what generates performance in these very experienced athletes, not so much the training protocol itself.
And this will be a mindset change. And if you don't change, your body's going to break. It's not going to be much fun. You're going to drop out of the sport. So this concept of break point volume is a really good one for the listeners to think about, particularly if they're chronically injured. Well, don't get trapped in getting yourself back to what hurt you in the first place. So you have to be willing to change.
these sessions or these mental targets that you have that are causing breakdown and just break the cycle. And that will lead to improved performance.
tyson (38:21.938)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think one of the challenges that people might have is they might say, okay, well, I keep getting these niggling injuries and they'll start doing some research or having a bit of a Google to try and find out what might be going on. And they're throwing things like, okay, obviously volume and load might be one thing. The other thing could be technical inefficiencies. The other thing could be gear or surfaces and things that they're running on.
Is there any protocol that you would recommend or that people could go through to find out what it is that's actually causing the issue? Because obviously, especially for a newer athlete, I mean, I think I can say quite confidently for myself, mine was exactly what you're speaking about. I had the mindset of me from 10 years ago, where I was doing it every day, I was doing it high intensity. Mentally, I knew what I should be doing and how to do it. And so I thought, let's go and do it. And it wasn't working. And I'm in that period of...
of that crossroads where I've got to navigate my way back to, you know, a higher standard of performance or at least a higher volume over time, slowly finding that balance. But I can only say that with confidence based on how long I've been involved in the sport and having the opportunity to hear from people like yourself. But for someone who's new, they go, okay, I don't know much about the sport. I can't seem to handle this load. 10 different people tell me 10 different things. How do I know what's true and what the next step should be?
Gordo Byrn (39:48.542)
Well, have a look at your training log and stop trying to race beyond what's comfortable in training. I mean, if you're banging out 30K a week and tolerating it well, there's no need to sign up for a marathon. I mean, these errors happen when we sign up for a race that's beyond our current capabilities. And as a result,
we feel pressure, self-imposed pressure, to ramp too quickly. It's the ramp. It's not the equipment. It's not necessarily our gait, although gait analysis can help. But it's almost always the basics. And the basics is life stress, sleep, load, and ramp rate.
the ramp rate. Running is a challenging sport, particularly if you aspire to be a high mileage runner. You're gonna need to take many years of walking, hiking, jogging, running intervals to build and create the body that can handle the load required, that the load implied by these high-end performances that you might aspire to. If you cut corners,
Or if your nutrition is poor or your sleep is poor and then you're not recovering, you're gonna get hurt. I mean, we all know that. And it's just patience. It's these longer, it's the ability to put the years on. But the easiest way to avoid all that is simply to race within your current capabilities. And I think many, you know, actually runners are pretty good with that. At least, you know, the junior runners that I'm exposed to here, nobody's in a...
big rush to kind of ramp up. It's the adults that are in a rush. The kids and the younger runners, they got their hands full running fast over shorter distances. Whereas the adult runner, particularly me, I was kind of like a late onset runner. I was drawn to these long events and I think a lot of people are, but it's not much fun, it's no fun being injured. So taking your time is probably, is a much better way to handle it.
tyson (42:10.386)
Yeah, interesting that you mentioned life stress and that as one of the potential catalysts for, you know, breaking down and not feeling good. I think when it comes to physical performance, I would say there's a lot of distance runners who are great at pushing through, probably like a lot of triathletes, pushing through discomfort and life stress and pain and tiredness because we've, I don't know whether it's tradition or just something within us that says, no, more is
tyson (42:40.24)
athletes in the world and realise that just because Ali Kipchoga is running the fastest marathon doesn't mean he's running the most miles in the world. In fact, much to your point, he seems to be ticking this box of consistency, high quality work over a long period of time. But the conversation around lifestyle and stress is one that I don't think it's given enough airtime, particularly in distance running. I think sometimes we look at it as an outlet to stress, which it definitely is.
But a lot of the time, I'm always fascinated that so many elite performers, regardless of what sport, whether it's a LeBron James or a, you know, Elliot Kipchoge, it doesn't matter what sport you choose. So many seem to be relatively relaxed when they get to the start line. You'd think with such a high pressure environment, there'd be a lot of stress. It constantly surprises me that world-class athletes seem to...
quite often look the most relaxed at the point where you'd expect them to be the most stressed. And what stands out to be about that is, I know if I've had a really rough couple of weeks with stress or business or the kids have been running a muck and I've just got too much on my plate, I'll often go out to my destressor, which is my running or my sport, and just feel exhausted before I get out there. So on a physical level,
I get it. But can you talk more to that? Because as I said, I don't think it's discussed very much.
Gordo Byrn (44:05.678)
Yeah, and I've got some ideas for a running audience that are very specific. So I think we need to be aware that intensity is a form of stimulant. And I think many people, and this is where the whole link between intensity and sleep and being amped all the time. So you might feel like you're getting a release.
from a very difficult and intense session, but you're actually also, that feeling is real, but you're also giving yourself a very big stimulation from a nervous system point of view. So if you are in a situation where life stress is high, you need to have the discipline to actually take your stress level down in your training.
which would be a more gentle run, ideally in a forest or near some water to help bring yourself down from what's going on in your life. And the other thing to be aware of, particularly this is something triathletes and long distance triathletes know very well, and that is exhaustion can feel like relaxation.
And you might not necessarily be relaxed in a sense of, I'm ready to absorb my training. You might merely be completely exhausted. And if the goal is performance rather than exhaustion, then you need to look deeply into these cycles that you have going on. And competitive sport attracts a high percentage of people who are relatively neurotic in terms of their outlook.
in life and being aware of your psychological tendencies can help you navigate this and to try and make your relationship with sport healthy for your larger life but also productive in terms of sports. You're not trapped in these patterns of stress and being overstimulated and you can have the sport as part of a healthy stress management in your larger life.
Gordo Byrn (46:24.606)
And that would be the key thing. So if you're looking for a release from stress, don't add intensity, use your training to bring yourself down.
tyson (46:34.754)
That's really good. And in terms of training structures is one thing. We're very good at saying, okay, I've got a general outline of what I need to get done within a week. But when it comes to the mental side of performance, a lot of the time we'll get stuck in loops of negative thinking, faulty thinking, unhelpful thinking, which I find in those periods of my life where I've been stuck in little patterns like that, or sometimes big patterns like that.
is the exhaustion factor just of that mental loop going over and over and over has been really unhelpful. What I've found really beneficial, a psychologist taught me probably 12 or 13 years ago was cognitive behavior therapy or just the ability to challenge faulty unhelpful thoughts in a way that leaves you not only feeling better and happier but also hopefully over the course of you know weeks gonna have you out on the track in a
a more energised state and I get the sense through where I've heard you speak that this is something that you're well on top of. I can't remember if I'm putting words in your mouth here but...
Gordo Byrn (47:39.798)
No, you're not. That's what the bike is. You know, the bike, you're locked in. It's a repetitive motion. It's a meditation in motion. You're not having to think to pedal a bike. And you do hours and hours of it, and you're just kind of there, particularly if you don't use music. It's just you and your thoughts in the wind, and you process all this stuff. And as you process it, it kind of leaves.
That, you know, you're touching on the role of the coach is really to surface. You know, I think a lot of folks don't even notice these thoughts that they're having. They're just carrying them around all the time. So they're carrying the stress of their day, even when the stress isn't there. So they're not even aware of how much they're thinking about things when they're not with those things. The example for me was when I was living with a three-year-old, she was always with me and she was a rather difficult person to carry around 24 seven.
And so instead of just compartmentalizing the difficulty, the difficulty was with me always. And what I had to let go of is when I was not with my difficult moments, I had to recognize that and just kind of put them to one side. And then I'll be back to them when I need to be back to them. The other thing you touched on, and it's the way we all think, we think about our training week in terms of
the loading we wanna give to ourselves. Something I would recommend people do is think about the recovery structure of their week. So to balance this concept of, these are the workouts I have to do, one of the things I've changed is I, every single week has two back-to-back easy days. And this concept of coming up with a recovery structure within my week, and then the loading.
I just accept the loading. So I'm not trying to load, I'm trying to improve. And the loading is subject to my recovery structure. And I have certain rules of thumb that I apply. We've talked about them already. So the two back-to-back easy days, and if I'm more than five beats per minute elevated at night, I'm not gonna load the next day. So within those two simple parameters, I'm allowed to give myself as much as I can fit into my week without screwing up tomorrow and screwing up the next week.
Gordo Byrn (49:57.93)
So my whole system is that, it's a really simple system. Now the ability to apply that requires a lot of humility and a lot of flexibility because it makes it difficult for me to agree to meet my mates at 7 a.m. next Friday to go run 15K, because I don't know if that's gonna fit into my system. So you need very understanding people.
And you also need to be kind of relaxed with understanding you're gonna get the work done eventually. But if you're looking, if you're thinking about being a competitive athlete or a high performance athlete, it's a very effective way to approach the overall loading.
tyson (50:42.734)
Yeah, so when you sit down and I mean this might not be even a structure that you use specifically anymore so just riff with me a little bit here but the classic training program here in Australia is Sunday you go for your long run, Tuesday you do a harder session, Thursday is the same as Tuesday, Friday is easy, Saturday is a session. You've got
within those running sessions, you'll have like high intensity intervals, you'll have a threshold run or and then you'll have like your zone two, your longer slower run, your Sunday run. Are you sitting down with a goal in mind as to what happens on what day or do you have? And okay, so you have an idea of ideally what you'd like to get done in the week.
Gordo Byrn (51:24.194)
I know what I want to get done on my loading days, but I don't know when they're going to drop. So I have a clear idea of what I want to do, but I'm going to let my body dictate when I do it. And running, the nice thing about running is you're not trying to fit in a seven hour day, like a swim bike run day. So this flexibility...
tyson (51:27.884)
Yes.
Gordo Byrn (51:52.898)
actually it works pretty well for running because you just what I try to do is five mornings a week I try and hold my mornings open so if I'm up for it I can do a good block of training similar kind of thing so the slots within your running week are going to be fixed but the session that goes into those slots is going to be flexible and it's a different it's a different approach but I've
effective. And if you're an athlete that has lost time and load to injury and illness, it'll definitely be more effective for you. Because normally in these groups, where it is a fixed week weekly week, the top 5% of athletes in the group, they can handle it, because that'll be the load that they can handle.
you know, the next 15%, they're having a bit of trouble, but 80% of the other athletes are kind of erratic and it's too much for them, it's not quite fitting in. So you gotta just accept that and get more flexibility with when you're giving yourself the stress.
tyson (53:00.13)
Yeah. Was today a loading day or a maintenance day?
Gordo Byrn (53:03.378)
So for me, Northern Hemisphere, I took September really light and I'm sort of in a micro cycle, a five day micro cycle. All I did today was swim, because again, I just wanted to let myself come back up. So I'm in, if you like the second part of my off season where I'm trying to get back into my normal frequency of each sport and just get my body used to ramping back up. So I'm very early season up here.
tyson (53:32.254)
Is an off-season a couple of months for you? Like when you say off-season, obviously I understand that you might not be racing, but in terms of intensity, did you have complete blocks of time off-training, or is it all just reduced in volume and intensity?
Gordo Byrn (53:45.494)
So I do not do well not exercising. My mental state goes right into the toilet. So my off season is basically an hour a day with no main sets, move the body. And, but I was rotating swim, bike and run. So I was only running two or three times a week. And it's really just a keep
tyson (53:50.678)
Me too.
tyson (53:56.022)
Hehehehe
Gordo Byrn (54:14.242)
keep the body moving, keep myself feeling good. So I sleep better, I'm better to be around if I get a little bit of exercise. So it's my friend, Justin Dare calls it a low season rather than an off season. So the stress is down. I like to undertake a non-training project, something that I wouldn't normally do in my life. So I kinda, I have a little project that I work on for a few months. I've written books.
started businesses. My current project is a little redevelopment project of a property that I manage. And that keeps me from giving myself too much training. So it keeps a cap on things. And in the fall, you kind of need that because the weather's still pretty good. Once you're in winter, it's kind of easy to keep a lid on things because the weather's not as good for training.
tyson (55:08.438)
For sure, I think I share that same feature. If I haven't exercised, I'm not as nice to be around. My wife, she often laughs and she says it as politely as she can, but if I'm in a snappy mood or just being short with everyone, she'll go, what have you got on the training? What have you got on for training today? And it's a nice way of saying, hey, you're being an asshole, please go and do something about it.
Gordo Byrn (55:30.654)
Oh yeah. My wife just told me, she's like, you need to be training more. You need to up your volume.
tyson (55:33.826)
Hahaha
tyson (55:38.091)
When did your low season end? Yeah, that's right. Oh, no, that's...
Gordo Byrn (55:41.19)
And that, and stability, you know, and that's, you know, one of the things, so, you know, when I was an elite before I met Monica and my wife, I did use to shut it down, but what used to happen was my mental state would tank, I'd gain a ton of weight, and it just, I'd end up starting the next season behind instead of refreshed. And it would also be a sign, this is a good one for runners too, if when you back off the stress, you have huge rebound eating
and your weight is not stable, that's a sign that you're making yourself too light in the season. And triathletes are prone to this as well, particularly our elite triathletes. And this isn't a male or female issue, this is everybody. And this rebound in your weight is a sign that you're probably leaving performance gains on the table by making yourself too light in the competitive season.
you won't be recovering as well. And one of the concepts I like to bring to the whole nutrition discussion is a concept of having a healthy, strong training weight. And most of the year is focused on just sitting at this comfortable weight, not stressed out and just rolling great training. Because ultimately that's gonna be what determines our long-term development.
And I think many athletes think that they can, by just getting super light, it's like some sort of shortcut. And you know, you'll race great maybe for a season, but then you're gonna fall apart, you're gonna shorten your career, not worth it. What we're shooting for is a lifelong enjoyment of sport and competition. And we're gonna need to be flexible with that. And for the master's athlete, the parent athlete,
you're gonna need to fit your race aspirations into these windows that you get in your life where you're able to put together a decent block of training. And if you're consistent at a low level, it's only gonna take two two-week blocks if your base fitness is there really to lift you a bit so you can have a good experience in your race.
tyson (57:57.386)
Yeah, that's true that the obsession with running at lightweight is for men and women, a really big focus. It's rare that you'll hear someone speak about the idea of actually being a little bit heavier. But in terms of long-term enjoyment and consistency, it really makes sense. Do you think that's because the stress that's going through our body when we're actually in that weight loss process is actually, it's just adding more of a pressure or is it something to do with the fact that, I'm not sure you're speaking more about like a gym routine which actually helps you.
maintain a certain kind of way. Cause I heard you saying that at the moment, you're particular.
Gordo Byrn (58:32.182)
So I would say it's everything. So there's an endurance sport culture that light is right. But one of my Kiwi coaches used to tell me is, if it was all about weight, we'd have scales instead of finish lines. You gotta do the race. And each of us is gonna have an optimal race weight.
And my advice and something I noticed with myself was never lose the last kilo. It was never worth it. Because when you think you're just right, you've gone too far. And your immune system is on edge and you're not recovering, you're getting night sweats and the whole deal. You need to stay away from that if you're a high performance athlete. You gotta focus on performing. Now you talked about the gym.
Now, the way I think about that is most of the year as an endurance athlete is sort of catabolic in nature in terms of the training itself. It's breaking us down. And if we make that a double whammy by doing the training that breaks us down and running any form of energy deficit, we're breaking ourselves down across the whole year. And that happens regardless, even if we're in energy balance. So,
We have to stay in energy balance, but then what we also need when we're thinking about the year is we need an anabolic phase. We need a buildup phase. And the most natural place to put that is the winter. So the winter season is where, however you define strength and resistance within the listeners program, they need a block in the year where they're building themselves up, getting stronger.
healing, coping well, relatively low stress in their life. And that sets up the following competitive year. And that will let you stack the years ideally on an upward trend line. And that's something that I really believe in personally having kind of been at this for decades now.
tyson (01:00:44.723)
Yeah, beyond things like gym recovery, the technology that you can use to assist your performance, what are you doing outside of those areas at the moment that might be surprising to some athletes or might be of value to some athletes when it comes to actually seeing an improvement in their own performance regardless of the sport?
Gordo Byrn (01:01:02.546)
Well, wake up without an alarm for more than two years. That's a pretty good one. I think that's a big one. Another tip, if anybody has kids, go to sleep when the kids do. That was a change I made that had many beneficial impacts in my life. First off, it put me on the same schedule. And then also it gave me this time in the morning to do.
my run or whatever I was doing, my training, or even just to chill out before they got up. And so my family sees a better version of me because I've been able to chill out before the kids come bursting onto the scene. I think those would probably be the main things. The other thing that is maybe a little bit surprising to some people is, you know, my rate of development coming back to this has been fast. I've been surprised by that.
But at the same time, I've had more easy days than I've ever had. And I think we all underestimate the positive impact that backing off before we have to can have on our development, on our performance. And this concept of proactive recovery.
So if we're using the tech and all these little metrics that we've been discussing, use it in a way that allows us to recover better because that's really what it's doing. It's giving us more visibility on our fatigue. But the classics still work. I mean, you know, sleep, good nutrition and taking life stress down is, I mean, those are the big ones. Everything else is tiny little bits. I mean, if you get the big things right,
That's gonna be what drives the performance.
tyson (01:02:59.334)
Yeah, have you got a standout piece of technology that's head and shoulders above the rest in terms of helping you with this recovery? Yeah.
Gordo Byrn (01:03:08.054)
heart rate monitor. I mean, it's what I use. You know, it's a look at the internal stress of sitting in a chair, my resting heart rate, the internal stress of whatever I'm doing in my training. And it lets me connect feeling to heart rate. So how I'm coping with it. So I've always felt that the heart rate monitor was measuring stress.
rather than measuring heart rate. And then the skill becomes in how we interpret that number relative to what we normally see and what we're feeling at the same time. I would say that is the most, you know, a stopwatch and a heart rate monitor, probably gonna figure out the rest if we're paying close attention. Although I do like lactate testing, I found it very valuable for myself in terms of the low end and figuring out how to target my...
endurance training zones. I think that's, and that's an old, relatively old technology. I mean, it's been around for 25 plus years. I learned it in 2000 down in New Zealand.
tyson (01:04:20.662)
Wow, it's interesting listening to Olive, Alexander Boo now, bringing that to his triathletes in a way that sees them getting pricked every 10 minutes in some of the sessions. So what is it? It's a technology that's been around for a long time. It seems to have sort of jumped out of the bushes a little more recently and...
Gordo Byrn (01:04:40.202)
Yeah, he did a lot to sort of promote it. I don't actually think we need to be testing, most of us need to be testing that much. Although I do think that it does take a fair number of tests for us to understand our individual profile and to, you know, understand and to use it within our training because for all the reasons, if people are interested, they can.
listen to Olaf talk about all the different reasons. He uses it a lot and he's an expert at that. But I think for most of us, we can use it. It's like, okay, well, what do you think your easy pace is? What do you think your steady pace is? Great. Let's have a look at your lactate profile and just see if your feelings are accurate because we can convince ourselves of a lot of things. And a-
Many times it's, you know, for cycling, when you put, when you hook somebody up to a power meter, you don't even need to teach them much. You say, just watch the screen and watch where you're applying your power. And I think that's something that may be a useful area in the future for runners is understand where they're surging, how they're surging, where the power is being applied in these different environments. I think we could learn a lot from that because I know cyclists.
learned a lot about wasting energy, optimal time trial strategies, and these types of things. So lactate is just another look. And it would be great if they figure out how to have a continuous lactate monitor. And then we could see how lactate is changing over time with different conditions and different intensity profiles. I think that would be a fun thing to see. There's some technical issues though, because I think the concentration is a lot more in sweat.
tyson (01:06:16.074)
Yeah.
Gordo Byrn (01:06:38.842)
So the device would need to not be contaminated by sweat and then look into the blood, but that's beyond my pay grade. Hopefully they figure it out and I can just use it.
tyson (01:06:49.85)
Yeah, that's going to be interesting times ahead. It's blown my mind actually, I was having this conversation with a friend the other day, just how much little bits of technology seem to transform the face of the sport. I thought 10 years ago, running was in a pretty good place, but I guess like every generation, we're constantly shocked about the breakthroughs of the next and to use running as the example, the shoe technology recently has just seen so many of the marathon times just be blown out of the water. Not even just world record times, but...
Um, even, you know, relatively high, not quite professional level runner seemed to be dropping a couple of minutes here and there with, with some of the shoes. So I can only imagine what stuff like this.
Gordo Byrn (01:07:26.554)
I've got an interesting take on that. I don't use it. I'm not sophisticated enough in all the different shoe options, but just an idea for the coaches that might be listening. There is likely, I believe, an angle to use footwear technology to enable training that the athlete might not be able to do. And what I mean is...
there may be a way to shoes which are illegal to race in. So they're not allowed. Maybe there's too much lift or something like that. But you could use these shoes in training to do training that would ultimately benefit the race. And so if we're thinking about shoes that might enable quicker recovery from hard training or surfaces.
that might enable quicker recovery from very specific training or very demanding training. There's in terms of, if we start thinking outside the box with the options for equipment, there is a potential for a lot of stuff because ultimately it's gonna be the work that generates the performance. But there may be ways to use technology, surfaces, footwear, so that the athletes are able to do more specific work and recover from it quicker.
And the whole thing is really fascinating. I mean, I'm sure people are going to be experimenting with it.
tyson (01:08:54.594)
For sure. Yeah, I've even heard that some, it might be New Balance have bought out a shoe which is actually illegal to race in, but which a lot of people are starting to train in for, I'm not sure if it's for the reason that you've just mentioned or, yeah, psychologically, it must be nice to get around a rep regardless of what distance it is and seeing, oh, that's actually a lot faster than I'm used to and just putting yourself in a mental state to prepare for what you'd like to see yourself do on race day.
Gordo Byrn (01:09:17.618)
Well, at altitude, we used to use gentle downhill grades. So we would, you know, I live, live in Boulder about 1700 meters, 5,500 feet. And then we would, we would go, sometimes we would go higher. So, uh, up to say 9,000 feet or even locally, we would run away from the mountains downhill so that we could get the speed.
at a lower oxygen cost so we didn't tire ourselves out. So, I mean, people have been using altitude and downhills and different things to do similar things, but the shoe technology is like a whole new variable.
tyson (01:09:54.086)
Yeah, yeah, it really is. Gordo, I know it's getting late where you are and I want you to go and enjoy your evening. My wife and little boy are gonna be home any minute, my three year old's at daycare, but to escape the chaos that is the Popplesone household when the kids get home, I'll love you and leave you. But man, really grateful for the opportunity to sit down and have a chat. Always good to hear your thoughts and yeah, really appreciate getting the chance to ask you a few questions. Awesome, we'll see you soon. See you later everybody.
Gordo Byrn (01:10:17.654)
Thanks.
tyson (01:10:22.418)
Oh, some may not cut that off there. Good, I...