Trump has cast doubt on the US election process with repeated claims of election malfeasance. Are these claims real problems or lies to steal power? So much, that it took two episode to cover this. Here is part 2 of trump’s big lie.

Show Notes

INTRO [0:00
OUTRO [34:50

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What is Dysevidentia?

Dysevidentia is an inability to reliably process or integrate evidence. This is podcast discusses, contemplates, mocks poor use of evidence.

*Guitar riff*
INTRO [0:00]

MAKO: Warning. This show contains adult themes and language including a totally spontaneous gathering for some light insurrection.

SQEAKY: Dysevidentia is an inability to reliably process evidence and this is a podcast all about it. This episode was released on January 31st... 2022?

MAKO: And we are discussing dysevidentia because it is clear millions of people who think ANTIFA did January 6th are suffering from it.

SQEAKY: I am Sqeaky.

MAKO: And I am Mako.

SQEAKY: Wait. Isn't this really similar to last time?

MAKO: I mean I feel like we do introductions every episode.

SQEAKY: But like word for word? Wait, you should be hearing this on or after February 8th.

MAKO: Huh. Did we- Wait what did we say?

SQEAKY: You said the 31st, I think.

MAKO: Well that's wrong.

SQEAKY: Huh. Maybe it's because this is the first time we've had enough material that we've had to cut it into two parts. I mean, you did like fifteen weeks of research for the annunaki episode.

MAKO: Fifteen... More like maybe five. I don't know. Maybe it was fifteen. I don't know anymore. What is the world? I don't know. What is life?!

SQEAKY: Let's try to keep this one brief because it's gonna be uh, extra on top of the normal episodes we're putting out so moving right into some of the stuff we'd normally discuss things like corrections, we actually did a correction. We accidentally said...

MAKO: ...that Fauci was a part of the CDC.

SQEAKY: I just kind of meant that he was the face of American medicine. I- I was sloppy. I should have said better there and I could have.

MAKO: Yeah I was just taking it for granted because Fauci and the CDC are often lumped together in COVID misinformation and I just took that for granted.

SQEAKY: Thanks to Class of Broadway on our Discord for calling us out there. Dr. Fauci is actually the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the Chief Medical Advisor to the President.

MAKO: And as a physician with the National Institutes of Health.

SQEAKY: Oh yeah! So he is an important doctor and in charge of and important to everything except the CDC? Still important to the CDC-

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: -but not officially...

MAKO: He's not a part of the CDC payroll.

SQEAKY: Okay that's a good way to put it.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: Watch as we double check and turns out he is on the payroll somehow.

MAKO: Oh my god.

*Sqeaky laughs*

MAKO: Y'know I suppose that's possible but that's not what's printed as a part of his title. CDC does not appear in any of his titles or his professional affiliations.

SQEAKY: So we did have to record another segment 'cause just after we recorded it came out that Rudy Guilani was responsible for the fake electors and we talked a little bit- a little bit about that in episode 26, and we do have that leftover segment from the OathKeepers so we're gonna run that now and then we'll talk about Rudy and the electors?

MAKO: Yes.

*Guitar riff*

SQEAKY: Okay. Guitar riff.

*Sqeaky makes guitar riff noises*

MAKO: It would have been more productive if you just gave it five seconds of silence.

*Guitar riff*


SQEAKY: The OathKeepers did play a major role in this and maybe they didn't- they weren't in on the whole coup thing but I'm sure you've got something.

MAKO: I mean- Yeah. The Proud Boys was something that- a group that was brought up by Trump himself in fact what the timeline for --on Wikipedia-- the very first day in the Wikipedia timeline is when Trump told the Proud Boys to stand down and stand by. Yikes. Uh but other than that Proud Boys which has gotten plenty of media attention up to this point, a group that I personally haven't seen show up in the media as much is the OathKeepers. OathKeepers... Well the TLDR is that they're wackjobs. Little bit more detailed-

SQEAKY: They're wackjobs. Do go on!

MAKO: Little bit more detailed: Wikipedia describes OathKeepers as quote "An American far-right anti-government militia whose members claim to be defending the Constitution of the United States."

SQEAKY: Are they also white supremicists?

MAKO: Not outspokenly but I wouldn't be surprised if a lo- most of their members were white supremicists.

SQEAKY: Okay. Do we see any black OathKeepers ever?

MAKO: I don't see many OathKeepers in the first place, like I see their names in text but I can't say I've seen very many pictures of them.

SQEAKY: Okay. Like I know that they were there that day being Steven Bannon's bodyguards.

MAKO: Yes. So that's one of the things that they keep showing up doing is providing armed security for things that they feel that the government or local law enforcement is simply too timid or unwilling or incapable of performing. So they've been present at a lot of protests.

SQEAKY, laughing: These guys training in their backyards are going to more capable.

*Sqeaky sighs*

SQEAKY: Sorry. Sorry.

MAKO: The thought process for them is they fill in where there is no police presence so...

SQEAKY: By that logic that actually fits pretty well with having some police presence is better or having a poorly trained police presence is better than no police presence. The only problem is these guys are, well, violent wackjobs. They're not really police.

MAKO: Even though that that's kind of their mentality they do show up at places where there already are police and the- we have seen police chiefs say that their presence is inflammatory and unnecessary. I believe that particular quote came from Ferguson? They were present at Ferguson.

SQEAKY: Oh. You mean the race riots in that city that had a real problem with police killing black people?

MAKO: Yeah so a lot of the times when they do show up at a lot of these protests if they're not bodyguarding a person their stated goal is to protect businesses.

SQEAKY: Oh so the same thing Kyle Rittenhouse claimed.

MAKO: Yes.

SQEAKY: Oh great.

MAKO: Yes. So, they're very very outspokenly anti-BLM and -ANTIFA.

SQEAKY: Oh yes let's hate on the notion that a certain kind of people matter.

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: And the idea that isn't an organized group or anything, they're just people that are anti-fascist.

MAKO: So recently... Just going over a list of things that they've been involved with specifically how the first one I'm gonna do a little bit out of order because it pertains to their stance on BLM. This is text from Wikipedia. Quote "Following the deaths during protests in Kenosha and the George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon, Rhodes" --who is a prominent member of the oath keepers-- "referred to antifa and Black Lives Matter protestors as attempting an "open Communist insurrection"." So this is a sentiment that I've seen people try to echo on Reddit a couple of times where they're like you can't say the Capitol attack is an insurrection because if you do you have to say BLM is an insurrection.

SQEAKY: Other than being completely stupid, this argument falls apart for a number of reasons.

MAKO: There's only-

SQEAKY: BLM's never raided the Capitol.

MAKO: Yeah that's one. But there have been BLM protests that have gotten violent and they've done significant damage to police stations.

SQEAKY: Oh yeah totally let's let's attack police, the decision-making authorities for whole towns, that's not an insurrection.

*Mako laughs*

MAKO: If you look at the- provid- the definition of an insurrection- let's just pull that up.

SQEAKY: Yeah sure. But we're getting into playing word games. BLM's never tried to take over a town or a city or anything.

MAKO: Sure.

SQEAKY: If the definition includes interfering with the lawful function of a government then yeah, attack a police station is an insurrection-

MAKO: Insurrection-

SQEAKY: -that's not a useful definition.

MAKO: -is defined as a violent uprising against an authority or government. I'm pointing this out because I have to acknowledge the one and narrow dumb fucking thread where this is technically correct but it's not usefully correct.

SQEAKY: Yes, exactly. Fighting against an authority- Well that means that every time a child hits their mother, that's an insurrection.

MAKO: That's an insurrection, yes. By the same logic these people are trying to deploy.

*Sqeaky sighs*

SQEAKY: Okay, okay. So.

*Sqeaky sighs*

*Mako laughs*

SQEAKY: I know I started a podcast to fight against this but it hurts every time I see it. I'm not immune. Alright, the headache's almost gone give me a second. Okay, so when we're arguing with people on Reddit about this, I like to try to stick to the facts and the facts very much support that black people get shot and are killed way more than white people when encountering cops-

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: -and then people like to try and say shit like the votes weren't counted correctly and then it degener- or it descends into 'Well look there's an audit going on in Arizona' or whatever, but if a holistic look at the evidence and you see that Trump lost we should have a peaceful transfer of power. One of these is an insurrection that's stupid and the other one is people fighting to literally not die.

MAKO: Yeah. There's also just the problem of trying to compare an overall movement versus a singular event.


MAKO: Like you're trying to-

SQEAKY: If you're trying to claim-

MAKO: -taint an entire movement.

SQEAKY: If you're trying to claim that the notion of BLM, that black lives mattering is an insurrection...

MAKO: That's objectively and totally fucking stupid.

SQEAKY: Yeah. You might say one of the protests where they burned down a Wendy's because they're an authority on making burgers in that part of town is an insurrection because they did and I guess f that Wendy's.

MAKO: I'm pretty sure it's more about the police stations.

SQEAKY: Yeah, but the police station was still like left after that, the Wendy's was gone.

MAKO: Okay.

SQEAKY: Sir this is a Wendy's. Nope, it's a fire now.

*Sqeaky laughs*

SQEAKY: Okay, okay. Back to the OathKeepers?

MAKO: Back to the fucking OathKeepers. Okay. So yeah. At those protests they made that absurd statement. They were present for the Bundy Ranch Standoff in 2014.

SQEAKY: Well that resolved totally peacefully, it's not like they had to shoot leaders to- Oh, nevermind.

MAKO: Yeah, yeah, people died. I believe that the OathKeepers actually like pulled out before the shooting started but I'm not entirely clear on that.

SQEAKY: I've heard that as well.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: And again the Opening Arguments podcast, they are so on top of a lot of these legal matters.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: But it's my understanding that the OathKeepers saw that they were worried that there was going to be a drone strike so they pulled out and the other white supremicists there called them cowards and then got shot.

*Sqeaky and Mako laugh*

SQEAKY: For whatever else is going on through the OathKeepers' heads, they know how to avoid getting shot immediately.

MAKO: That's something.

SQEAKY: Yeah let me get that source real quick.

*Sqeaky types*

MAKO: Sure.

SQEAKY: Oh there's a new one as of yesterday. Activision, Microsoft, and Monopoly Law. Cool. Looks like it happened in episode 560 of Opening Arguments. But whatever the correct episode is I'll make sure to include a link to that in the show notes.

SOURCE [10:14] Oath keepers pulled out of bundy ranch - https://openargs.com/oa560-supreme-court-just-plain-making-sht-up-in-vaccine-ruling/

MAKO: Mhm. Okay. OathKeepers. Another thing that they attended, the Sugar Pine Mine standoff in 2015.

SQEAKY: I'm not actually familiar with that one.

MAKO: Okay, let's do a really quick overview of that. 2015, armed OathKeepers of the Pacific Northwest attended two disputes between gold miners and federal authorities. In April, they gathered in Medford, Oregon at the request of owners of the Sugar Pine Mine near Galice after the owners were ordered to stop working the mine by the Bureau of Land Management. In August, they patrolled the White Hope Mine in Helena National Forest about twenty miles from Lincoln, Montana. The U.S. Forest Service said miners have engaged in illegal construction and tree felling.

SQEAKY: Oh. So people were breaking the law, the law said 'Hey guys, stop breaking the law', and then the OathKeepers like 'Nuh uh, it's our country, we're gonna violate it if we want.'

MAKO: Something like that, yeah. Do you remember who Kim Davis is?

SQEAKY: I really should but right now I don't recall.

MAKO: Rowan County, Kentucky clerk after they legalized same-sex marriage who refused to give out certificates- marriage certificates to same-sex couples.

SQEAKY: Yeah. Uh did they provide physical security to her somewhere?

MAKO: No. But they did offer to provide physical security to Kim Davis, publicly.

SQEAKY: Yep gotta worry about all those gay terrorists coming after ya.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: Y'know I've never seen like a militia waving guns around under like a bunch of pride flags. Doesn't seem to happen that often.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: The closest I can get is the Al Qaeda flag with dildos all over it.

MAKO: Moving on.

SQEAKY: What?! That was a real thing! Gah, fine.

MAKO: So they were also present of course --this is why we bring them up-- for the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

SQEAKY: Oh were they there to keep the the people back and keep them from invading the Capitol and defend the constitution?

MAKO: Of course not.

SQEAKY: Oh. Why would a group called the OathKeepers ever be interested in defending an oath. Hm.

MAKO: Yeah that's just silly. So OathKeepers, the full extent with which the OathKeepers were involved in the January 6th attack is near as I can tell unclear, but 'cause a lot of the information that's been gathered regarding their participation has not been publicly released. It has been gathered, it is there, the Justice Department has the information and is acting on it. Initially the Justice Department charged eleven, first three, and then immediately after an additional eight, eleven members of the OathKeepers with obstruction. But very very recently, they have decided to also add the charge of seditious conspiracy.

SOURCE [12:38] Oath Keepers leader and 10 others charged with 'seditious conspiracy' related to US Capitol attack - https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/oathkeeper-rhodes-arrested-doj/index.html

SQEAKY: Is that to all eleven of these people or just to Stewart Rhodes, their leader?

MAKO: I believe all eleven is my understanding.

SQEAKY: That's amazing.

MAKO: And so sedition is one of those charges that is really, really difficult to get to stick. And most of the time Justice Department doesn't even bother trying to charge people with that because it has this near impossible benchmark of proving intent and-

SQEAKY: Which pretty much needs you either need a mind-reading machine or you need to get communications that would be really easy to hide inside the group. Like if the group only ever met face-to-face and only talked, you'd never be able to prove it.

MAKO: Pretty much.

SQEAKY: So they must have like Signal or WhatsApp messages or some other secret communication or these idiots probably planned their shit in Twitter DMs.

MAKO: Maybe. But yeah, the Justice Department feels confident that they... they have a good shot at making those charges stick so they're adding those charges and that is kinda damning for the information that they have gathered.

SQEAKY: Well wouldn't be the first time I've seen the Justice Department charge something and then fail miserably to get the case through-

MAKO: Yes.

SQEAKY: -but this... There's so much evidence for this one that we can see that given their extra resources and subpoena power I'm sure they've seen a lot more.

MAKO: Almost certainly. That is the reasonable takeaway here. So yeah. Like, shit's fucked yo.

*Sqeaky chuckles*

SQEAKY: It also sounds like just getting these people off the streets, really they're out like in the middle of the woods most the time, getting these thugs out of the woods would do the country a lot of good.

MAKO: They've been in the streets plenty.

SQEAKY: I like how that's the part you disagree with.

MAKO, laughing: The only part I can disagree with.

SQEAKY: Well getting them out of an environment that can be described as anything other than a prison would do some good.

MAKO: Just get them out of- away from civilization.

SQEAKY: But they're able to fuck up the woods! No I get what you mean. Putting these people behind bars will do everyone a lot of good.

MAKO: Yeah. I mean at some point also the woods would fuck back but y'know...

SQEAKY: Would they?

MAKO: Uh yeah.

SQEAKY: Humans beat nature. We've learned this at this point haven't we? Even sy dumb humans.

MAKO: This is a somewhat small number of humans and yeah they're dumb, I don't know- I feel like it would catch up to them eventually.


MAKO: They'd be attritioned.

SQEAKY: Ancient humans wiped out the saber tooth tiger on our march across the Bering Strait.

SOURCE [14:50] There multiple for smilodon extinction, human hunting is one leading conjecture - https://kidzfeed.com/why-did-the-saber-tooth-tiger-go-extinct/

MAKO: Yeah and they were smarter than these people, what are you not getting?

*Sqeaky laughs*

SQEAKY: Ancient humans with just pointy sticks.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: Yeah, okay. Okay. Cavemen weren't dumb just 'cause they lived in caves, they just didn't have all the science built onto- Okay, we're taking the dumbest of our society and comparing it to the pinnacle of cavemen society no it makes sense, it makes sense.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: So to try to summarize some of this, the Big Lie is actually just Trump repeatedly lying and claiming the elections were falsified.

MAKO: Rigged, yeah.

SQEAKY: And that is really just bullshit, he's just repeating it, he's the only source for it, he never cites evidence.

MAKO: Because he kept on saying it was rigged over and over and over people were like 'Oh my god, maybe it is fucking rigged' so people added so much extra oversight wherever they possibly could get away with, I mean there were attempts to improve vote security that were shot down by the Republicans repeatedly leading up to the election but-

SQEAKY: Yeah and that's telling, who's shooting it down.

MAKO: Yeah. But everywhere else 'cause like the place to improve election security is not just in congress.

SQEAKY: Yeah. Every state was doing things as well and there were multiple audits for any place where there was question about who is who.

MAKO: So many audits.

SQEAKY: And real audits, not the Arizona Cyber Ninja style audits.

MAKO: So it was generally considered because of this concern to be the most secure election we've had in recent history.

SQEAKY: Yeah and we had every authority on this that mattered, everything voting company and every auditing company coming out and saying this, the only people not saying this were the people that would benefit directly by seizing control of the country.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: So we've got some of the groups involved, their level of involvement, we have the plan from Trump and his immediate staff that were planning a coup, and how all of this played into it and several ways this could have played into it. You have my rough explanation of one feasible plan but really there are many plans that could have come from having a mob attack the Capitol, right. There's a lot of possible routes from there to Trump not losing the presidency and all of this is the Big Lie. It's one sit- it's one big useful lie that created opportunities and options for a would-be fascious takeover.

MAKO: Yep.

SQEAKY: And that's the only way I have to describe it. It would be autocracy, taking over, and using violence to crush descent. Is there... there any other way to look at that?

MAKO: Not really.


MAKO: Not when it's followed to its logical conclusion, anyway.


MAKO: And there's a lot of in-between steps where a lot of people can try and paint doubt but really...

SQEAKY: The painting doubt's gonna be shit- What are you gonna storm the Capitol and then like count the votes fairly?

MAKO: According to them, yeah.

SQEAKY: I wanna- I wanna see like all the Trump supporters barge in, check out the the fake and the real electors, correctly sort them, be like 'Oh, well Biden did win, would ya look at that?' like...

MAKO: 'Ah well my bad, guess I'm goin' home now.' God...

SQEAKY: Yeah. And every step is as ridiculous as that. It's just not as obvious. Well I guess we should cut it there because a few amusing mental images there...

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: I think the most amusing one is getting Trump supporters that can count up to 538.

MAKO: I mean there's only fingers, toes, twenty...

SQEAKY: So how many-

MAKO: Are they wearing sandals?

SQEAKY: Sure. It was January, probably not.

MAKO: Okay they could probably count to like ten.

SQEAKY: Well when you get twenty-seven Trump supporters you can count to 270 and that's uh, what you need to win.

*Sqeaky laughs*

MAKO: Okay.

*Guitar riff*

MAKO: -lot of media coverage.

SQEAKY: I'll just knock shit over while you're trying to talk.

*Mako sighs*

*Guitar riff*


SQEAKY: We both did some research for Rudy and his fake electors. Do you wanna give an overview or should I get us started or...?

MAKO: Well depending on how high of a level of an overview all of this. We're still trying to gather information all of this, this is pretty fresh information. Not that Rudy Guiliani is involved in something crooked, that is really really old information but this specific one we're getting more and more details on the exact nature of his involvement. So the- I don't feel like there's a whole lot that we can say for absolute confidence but it definitely does seem that Rudy Guiliani was involved in the organizing of fake electors and having those fake electors submit paperwork to congress to certify their results for Trump instead of Biden.

SOURCE [19:09] Rudy over fake electors plot - https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/20/politics/trump-campaign-officials-rudy-giuliani-fake-electors/index.html Recording of people claiming

SQEAKY: And those fake electors, they came from seven states: New Mexico, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wischc- Wisconsch- Cheese place-

MAKO: Wisconsin.

SQEAKY: Nevada, Arizona...

*Sqeaky chuckles*

MAKO: Fucking "Cheese place".

SQEAKY: Fit they're "Cheese place" now.

MAKO: God. The first thing I think of when I hear cheese place is not Wisconsin. I mean context provided that for me in this conversation but I think that cheese vault that the United States has...

SQEAKY: The strategic like cheese caves-

SOURCE [19:40] The strategic cheese reserve picture (impact on POC is unvetted but emotionally impactful) - https://brownpoliticalreview.org/2018/05/let-eat-cheese-vulnerable-populations-pay-us-cheese-surplus/

MAKO: Yes.

SQEAKY: -that are scattered across like Appelachia?

MAKO: Yes.

SQEAKY: App-a-lach-ia. The Appalachian Mountains? They're all over man, there's a ton of 'em.

MAKO: Okay.

SQEAKY: Do we have to put a link to the picture of the government cheddar now don't we?

MAKO: Yes.

SQEAKY: Okay I'll make sure I find a picture of the government cheddar and link to it in here.

MAKO: The United States has strategic cheese.

SQEAKY: Yeah it was part of a program to help diary farmers weather tough economic times. We paid for extra cheese. Yeah, that's... that's the free market. Or the complete opposite.

MAKO: Yeah that sounds like a form of welfare...

SQEAKY: Uh yeah. We gave welfare to- Okay, moving on.

MAKO: Yup.

SQEAKY: Let's rag on conservatives for for fraud this moment not for-

MAKO: Yeah yeah yeah.

SQEAKY: -double-standards.

MAKO: Yep yep yep yep.


MAKO: Plenty of time for that later.

SQEAKY: On the fake electors, there's actually a lot of weird details going on here. Like uh, one state actually sent in- Actually no I didn't double check this one.

MAKO: Mmm.

SQEAKY: I heard that one state sent in two slates of fake electors in addition to the real ones, but Rudy was only in charge of one of those.

MAKO: Yeah I actually tried to look around. Before you mentioned it was specifically Arizona and I didn't really find anything concrete on there being two slates of fake electors.

SQEAKY: Okay. Then let's keep that as a dubious claim. I don't want to put my name on saying that's definitely true without more research on our part. That's how fresh this is.

MAKO: Yeah.

SQEAKY: I did hear that from a reputable news source I think MSNBC, but five of the states had people who just put out claims that they were the real electors and that would be Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin. While Pennsylvania and New Mexico both had the same overall documents but they also attached or amended them slightly that they were electors in the event that those states' electors were overthrown by the state legislatures or courts.

SOURCE [21:22] A fraudulent Pro-Trump slate of 2020 electors sent their votes to Congress. Who was behind it? - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/01/14/arizona-trump-electors-slate-refuse-explanations/6532330001/

MAKO: Yeah the source that I found talked about exactly this, how those two states had wiggle room in their documents and the things that they said included language like 'it might be determined' or 'would only be official following a final, non-appealable court order' is specifically what the language in those documents had.

SQEAKY: What I'm getting at here is five of these places the electors were brave enough to just go ahead and be fraudsters. In these other two places they were like 'Uh we only want the benefits of insurrection if we win. We don't want any of the risk' so...

MAKO: Yeah. They- Let me see what was it. Yeah New Mexico and Pennsylvania are the two states that were like 'Well maybe, maybe not. We want this to happen but we're not gonna try hard at it' but the rest of the states they were like 'No, we're definitely'- 'This is the correct paperwork, we are submitting our election, let's go with their votes' that's ultimately what it is.


MAKO: Yeah so all those other states that are not New Mexico, Pennsylvania, they said that these electors are the correct electors we are casting our vote for Trump. Full stop. There's... And it's just objectively wrong.

SQEAKY: I don't think we really as a country that nominally wants the people to be choosing our leadership, have either of these kinds of activities being acceptable. Putting a fine print that says 'If something that will never happen happens, I want to do some insurrection' or 'I want to overturn the election', that's uh, that's fd up and really closed to any sort of line. That's...

*Sqeaky sighs*

SQEAKY: It wouldn't fly in any other context. It's... it's the legal equivalent to sitting in the backseat of the car on a long road trip and you're hitting your sibling and your parents say stop hitting your sibling so you're waving your hands in front of their face and being like 'Ha I'm not touching you I'm not'- it's clearly childishly pushing up to the line but still wanting the results of the treason.

MAKO: I mean, yeah.

SQEAKY: Alright. So sources for this first bit that these electors happened and that there's these minor distinctions and some of the details, we've got CNN, Reuters confirms it, what was the source you had for verifying the Pennsylvania New Mexico thing?

SOURCE [23:26] Even Reuters says Rudy was behind the fake electors - https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-campaign-officials-including-giuliani-oversaw-2020-fake-electors-plan-cnn-2022-01-20/

MAKO: Uh USA Today.

SQEAKY: I see a lot more notes there for USA Today so what else-

MAKO: I- I always take more notes than... than you do.

SQEAKY: You do but usually have some things to say when the notes are that big.

MAKO: Well the claims that I took notes on, Rudy Guiliani repeatedly spoke to Arizona House Speaker Rusty Bowers, I might have butchered that name, I apologize I do this a lot, to get into place the state electors and every single time he refused. Eleven Republican electors and twenty-two state lawmaker signed the document and submitted it to congress so it wasn't just the electors signing paperwork that was fraudulent.

SQEAKY: In that vein, I really like the way that the Huffington Post phrased it. Their statement in their article which we'll link that also, they said that this plan was so corrupt that a significant number of Republicans backed out of it. I know they're fairly left-leaning but still, to give credit like that, that's so backwards and-

SOURCE [24:21] So corrupt some republicans opposed it on ethical grounds - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-fake-electors-slate-trump-certifications_n_61ea2bdfe4b01440a689cda7

MAKO: Yep.

SQEAKY: -left-handed it's kind of awesome. So Rusty Bowers is one of these people that backed out?

MAKO: Well backing out implies that he was in at some point.


MAKO: He was approached and he kept refusing.

SQEAKY: Okay. It is good to see that some politicians didn't go along with this ridiculously corrupt plan.

MAKO: Yep.

SQEAKY: I know that politicians often ride lines but this clearly isn't on some sort of line, this is straight up treason as far as I can tell, I haven't heard anyone with a serious argument that says otherwise.

MAKO: So anyway, twenty-two lawmakers that signed the document, they... the document that was signed- and this was for the Arizona electors by the way.

SQEAKY: Yeah, yeah.

MAKO: So that document in addition to it being signed, they asked for congress to either accept the votes for Trump or, at worst, wait for an audit to accept the results.

SQEAKY: Which is where the Cyber Ninja's audit came in.

MAKO: Probably.

SQEAKY: And we discussed that one back when it happened but Arizona had already been audited.

MAKO: Yeah.


MAKO: They were essentially saying trust us even though we're really not certified to do this or wait. But either way don't trust the actual-


*Mako sighs*

MAKO: -legitimate electors.

SQEAKY: And there are rules around becoming an auditor and there are best practices and there are things you need to do to do it correctly. Cyber Ninjas did none of these things, Cyber Ninjas had none of these qualifications, Cyber Ninjas formed seemingly in response for the Republicans to have a company to do audits and they started doing these audits- this 'audit', air quotes, you can't hear it over the microphone, audit-

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: -but it was clear that it was full of shit just based on how they were handling things and rules they were passing out. They were constantly leaking memos and documents showing how wrong they were about so many of the things and the whole kinematic artifact thing. It was just bs, it was made up words, kinematic artifacts means something that's moving, kinematic artifacts means nothing and they were searching for kinematic artifacts in the scans of the- that the voting machines made of the of the ballots, what doe- No that's bs, there's nothing going on here. And even then the Cyber Ninjas audit, when they realized that Trump wasn't gonna win, they backed the f out because they either didn't want the legal recourse being attached to treason or they didn't want to be attached to the legal recourse of fraud or they didn't get paid so they backed the f out and that was the big audit that everyone said found more votes for Biden than for Trump. I keep interrupting you.

SOURCE [26:28] Cyber ninjas audit did not turn out well for the GOP - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/maricopa-county-draft-cyber-ninjas-election-review-says-biden-won-n1279997

MAKO: Uhuh. Sure. The other note, the last note I took from USA Today was a Arizona state elector for Trump, so this is one of the not legitimate state electors, Lorraine Pellegrino, I might have butchered that too.

SQEAKY: That's spelled just like the bottled water.

MAKO: I'll take your word for it. But she claimed that she was only signing the document to be used in case something was overturned, that it was a backup plan they had prepared and that is why she signed the document and tries to assert that nothing fraudulent was attempted by it which seems a little silly to me.

SQEAKY: It's like dressing up as a cop and then keeping a note in your pocket that's like nah I'm not really a cop, sure I pulled you over and demanded money for a ticket but that was in case you only actually pulled over just in case.

MAKO: I mean I'm not sure that's the best example but you ha- you are there to do a particular job, why are you doing it in advance when you don't know that you're ready to do it. The pre-conditions have been met.

SQEAKY: There's no honest way to do what she's doing. That's- the whole thing's ridiculous.

MAKO: It is completely absurd to sign your name on a legal document before the prerequisites are done. It's so simple to not do that and as a 'just in case', like what time do you think you're saving by doing that?

SQEAKY: To take that stance it wouldn't be about the time-savings it would be about the letting it automatically happen on someone else's call so there are other situations where you might sign over a power of attorney form should you become unconscious so that way somebody can make decisions while you're in the hospital. So this isn't unheard of in legal forms, it's just that these people are liars and full of shit, and if they won they would have gotten control of the United States and if they lost they would get thrown in prison for fraud and treason and they just wanted to dodge that, at least that seems obvious to me.

MAKO: Well yeah they're doing all sorts of clear dodging.

SQEAKY: How can they maximize the chances of successful treason while minimizing the risk?

MAKO: So the January 6th committee, they have subpoenaed Lorraine Pellegrino relating to the signing of the... of the votes that was submitted to congress. In addition to Lorraine Pellegrino, Nancy Cottle was also subpoenaed. I didn't look too closely at Nancy Cottle, I just presume it's more of the same.

SOURCE [28:46] Jan. 6 committee subpoenas Arizona Republicans linked to filing of phony electors. Here's what we know - https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/arizona/jan-6-committee-subpoenas-arizona-republicans-linked-to-filing-of-phony-electors-heres-what-we-know/75-5eb43e23-6a4d-4a8c-aec9-1daf156dc440

SQEAKY: Mid- to low-level Republican...

MAKO: Signing a document they shouldn't have signed? Certifying results in a different direction than what was legitimate.

SQEAKY: Hmm. Uh the only other person I can think of note was Christina Bobb who's a host on OAN, on One America News.

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: So she uh... She helped with some of the legal strategy and planning with Rudy Guilani when the fake electors plan was first coming up and she also created a non-profit to gather funds to help pay for recounts and pay for other events like the Cyber Ninja audit. So my source for that one is the Daily Beat and they have another source that they're citing 'cause they're very left-leaning but you're not gonna get a lot of news for this y'know illegal stuff Rudy Guiliani's doing on Fox News. To demonstrate more of how entangled this uh news anchor was in on the scheme, Rudy Guilani demanded veto power over any scoops that she came across that she wanted to broadcast, so not only was she in on this plan for electors, but she was changing the content of what was on her show based on what was good or bad for Rudy or his plan to try and overthrow. Which is really weird and screwed up, I don't know how you can lie about that and claim to be news at all and totally destroys OAN's credibility if you thought it had any at this point.

SOURCE [29:34] OAN was in on the fake electors scheme - https://www.thedailybeast.com/oan-host-christina-bobb-assisted-rudy-giuliani-on-trump-fake-elector-stunt/

MAKO: Yeah there's been a long chain of destroying... Of OAN specifically destroying OAN's credibility. So...

SQEAKY: Well that was kind of rapid fire we just threw a lot of stuff out there because we don't have a cohesive story to tell on this piece yet, right.

MAKO: Yeah it's still unfolding.

SQEAKY: And we know a ton but there's just like so many pieces of evidence, so many documents, so many things that have come out, it's just overwhelming, right?

MAKO: I wouldn't say it's overwhelming yet, but there is a lot.

SQEAKY: I don't know how to piece all of this together into a bigger narrative, just this Rudy Guilani piece of information.

MAKO: We'll get there.

SQEAKY: It does make the whole Jan 6 narrative fit together better.

MAKO: Mhm.

SQEAKY: It seems to me that Rudy started off with a plan to segue or to work with Trump constantly lying about the election's not being secure, and then the fake electors were supposed to happen and they were supposed to use the crowd outside on Jan 6, they wanted to get the crowd riled up to urge Pence into physical- or to urge Pence to do what they wanted with physical violence is my current assessment of it which could be wrong, there's other ways this could have played.

MAKO: Yeah. It's hard to say that there is a singular person at the top pulling all the strings although it-

SQEAKY: Trump? You just gave me this look like 'Shutup Sqeaky that's fucking stupid'.

MAKO: Well I know a lot of people would disagree with me on this but really I think Trump is just a sock puppet, honestly but the specifically the coordination for the state electors, the fake electors that is involved and then the actual legal side of trying to overturn the election, and then the political pressure side of it, organizing demonstrations, we have good evidence saying that the demonstrations are connected. We have good evidence to suggest that the legal stuff is connected but like where exactly those two intersect we have not as great information.

SQEAKY: Yeah it's my understanding Roger Stone is all over the demonstration and all over a lot of the extremist groups, Rudy is in charge of a lot of the legal stuff and then the Republican Party is just going along with and vaguely supporting wherever party officials are well-positioned to help.

MAKO: And you could have two people completely independent of each other trying to figure out what exactly they can do best and having these things form independently from one another or-

SQEAKY: So that standalone complex of coups and treason.

MAKO: It could happen. Or they could have a more cohesive structure of people organizing things and that's the part that's not perfectly clear.

SQEAKY: So if it is this standalone complex or just a bunch of people all decided to sort of go the same direction 'cause it seemed like a bright idea, does it change how we should approach it? If it were a single criminal we'd arrest the criminal and put them on trial so why don't we just arrest all these people 'cause they're criminals and put them on trial?

MAKO: I do think that it changes how people interpret the events. People respond more strongly to individual masterminds with a face than multiple middle minds with faces?

SQEAKY, chuckling: Middle Minds? That's brilliant.

MAKO: So how people respond is the big difference. Of course if someone does something illegal they'll be tried, punished, sent to jail as appropriate, all that's the same regardless, you're right, but how seriously people take this and how reactive we want to be to prevent a repeat, I think that's gonna change a little bit based on which it is.

SQEAKY: That's why I wasn't asking that we like lynch them all or anything, I don't- I don't wanna see these people- Okay I do wanna see them hang but really I don't think that's what we should be doing, we should be getting these people arrested, getting prosecuters to individually pick charges, and I don't think that it's for us podcasters to say what the hell these people should be going to jail for. I mean things vaguely related to treason, but yeah if there was one single mastermind he should be punished but it's not like we wouldn't punish the masterminds's lieutenants.

MAKO: Sure.

SQEAKY: I dunno. Yeah we don't actually disagree on anything here I don't think.

MAKO: Just, I don't know. You're focusing on specifically the results and I'm saying to get results, political will and pressure from the populace and we'll get more pressure with the mastermind than we'll get with middleminds.

SQEAKY: I see what you're saying. No that totally makes sense. That's why things like yesterday, ArrestTrumpNow was trending on Twitter. It would be hard to make a single hashtag that's 'ArrestTheseFourteenPeopleWhoAllWereKindOfBadAndLedToStochasticTerrorismAndAnAccidentalCoup'. It doesn't exactly flow.

MAKO: Yeah that's difficult to make flow, yeah.


MAKO: Yup.

*Guitar riff*

SQEAKY: Let's actually do the outro this time.

MAKO: Awwww.

*Guitar riff*

OUTRO [34:50]

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